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info. I'm

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I'm Hannah Frye and I'm I'm Obry and this this

1:48

is cases. The show where the show where

1:50

we take your questions, your conundrums and then

1:52

we solve them we the power of

1:54

science. of I mean do we always

1:56

solve them? I mean solve them? I mean the

1:58

pretty low. pretty low. But it is. science. It is

2:01

with science. Hi we're doing a

2:03

test myself and Hannah. We are.

2:05

We are. It's on the boredom-prone

2:07

scale, BPS. I don't think it's

2:09

an official scale. This looks a

2:11

lot more like a sort of

2:13

internet quiz from the 90s. Oh

2:16

it does a bit, it's not

2:18

like you know science. The Glasgow

2:20

stool scale or whatever. It's a

2:22

British school scale. It's questions like

2:24

it's easy for me to concentrate

2:26

on my activities, which I would

2:28

say is... Broadly not true for

2:30

me. I've had quite hard. Some

2:33

of them seem very obvious. Having

2:35

to look at someone's home movies

2:37

or travel picks bores me tremendously.

2:39

I think that's who does what

2:41

it is. Absolutely agree. Oh, here's

2:43

one. I feel I am working

2:45

below my abilities most of the

2:47

time. That's not true. No. I'm

2:49

working way beyond. It's been reaching.

2:52

Really, let's go for the very

2:54

last one. When I was very

2:56

young, very young, I was often

2:58

a monotonous and tiresome situations. Ireland

3:00

in the 80s was, like on

3:02

Sunday afternoon is often a very

3:04

monotonous and tiresome. I can well

3:06

believe it. Yeah, Sunday afternoon. I

3:09

once during a single summer was

3:11

so bored that I taught myself

3:13

how to reorder a pack of

3:15

cards as quickly as possible. That

3:17

was every day for six weeks.

3:19

Did you use a skill ever?

3:21

Do you mean a group? Never

3:23

once. 26% of the time. Really?

3:25

Mine was 3%. So you never

3:28

bought? I don't think I am

3:30

really. No. Even this conversation is

3:32

being to where? I'm a model

3:34

of inner contentment, as it says,

3:36

at 26%. What did I say

3:38

about you? It said, you're so

3:40

calm, you tend to sleep through

3:42

life. I would say that is

3:45

the precise opposite of my personality,

3:47

Jane. Thank you very much for

3:49

entertainment purposes only. Well, that's what

3:51

this episode is, as well, for

3:53

entertainment purposes only, because today we

3:55

have a question that has come

3:57

in from Edward Bemont, who is

3:59

13. or if it's just something

4:01

people say. It's quite a weird

4:04

saying because it's very extreme for

4:06

a feeling that most of the

4:08

time you it doesn't stay for

4:10

very long. I do get bored

4:12

quite easily. It's like there's a

4:14

lot of options of what I

4:16

could do but none of them

4:18

seem to really appeal. I'm going

4:21

to take this question in its

4:23

most dramatic form. He means die,

4:25

absolutely, I have lost my will

4:27

to live. Like boredom is a

4:29

torture device. I cannot take this

4:31

grammar, a revision anymore, and I

4:33

simply expired upon a chaise lounge

4:35

next to my homework. This feels

4:37

like it would be quite a

4:40

short show if that was the

4:42

literal interpretation of his question, because

4:44

I think if you could literally

4:46

die of boredom, then anyone in

4:48

solitary confinement would be at risk

4:50

to their lives. Yeah, okay, true,

4:52

but I still like the idea

4:54

of it being a tangible fear

4:57

for a 13-year-old that this is...

4:59

because I imagine this is written

5:01

when he was facing into some

5:03

subject that he really isn't that

5:05

interested in. I like this is

5:07

going to kill me. Here

5:11

to help us get to the bottom of this

5:13

definitely not dull subject, we've got social psychologists, Dr

5:15

Vinen Van Tilberg, who studies boredom at Essex University.

5:17

And Dr Mike Esterman, co-found of the Attention and

5:19

Learning Lab at Boston University in the US. Why

5:21

not I'm coming into this question dramatically? Can you

5:23

literally die of boredom? First I just want to

5:25

ask our questioner if he's all right. Oh, that's

5:27

quite sweet. I hope he's okay. It seems like

5:30

quite an extreme question. As far as I'm aware,

5:32

there's exactly one study that looked at the potential

5:34

direct link between boredom and mortality. Called Board to

5:36

Death, so very fitting title, and what they find

5:38

there is that in a cohort of civil servants

5:40

in their middle age, so not quite young boys,

5:42

those reported to be bored extensively

5:44

in the last couple

5:46

of weeks, later more later die of

5:48

a likely to die of

5:50

a this is event. the only

5:52

is as far as I

5:54

know the only study

5:57

on the subject, so it

5:59

hasn't been replicated or

6:01

further investigated. Why would you

6:03

not further investigate? That's

6:05

the most dramatic heard of these. And

6:07

I may be and I may

6:09

be misinterpreting just likely. Every who declared

6:11

that declared that they were

6:13

slightly bored at the

6:15

time they they returned 10 years

6:17

later, they were all were

6:19

all dead. Fortunately not all

6:21

of them. all The risk

6:24

factor was higher, so they

6:26

were more likely more of

6:28

a cardiovascular event. later

6:30

on. on. quite right quite right that it's shocking not

6:32

much more research on this. research the last

6:34

Over the last work on boredom has increased, has

6:36

but it's been ignored for for a period

6:38

of time, of possibly because people tend

6:40

to to it a little bit. They think

6:42

maybe think maybe you know, you one of

6:44

these things in life that you have

6:47

to you a little bit, to and only

6:49

until recently have we started taking it

6:51

more seriously taking it looking at the problems

6:53

associated with it. Because bleh, it's an

6:55

everyday Because We bleh, all get bored. phenomenon. We all

6:57

get bored. Yep, most people most that they're bored

6:59

regularly. bored there a definition? there a clinical definition

7:01

of this? of this? So is not seen as

7:03

a clinical issue. and that may actually be

7:05

part of the reason why there is not

7:08

so much research in it. But in

7:10

psychology, it's usually defined as as one being unable

7:12

to engage in some sort of satisfying

7:14

activity. And that's a very common experience. And

7:16

in its everyday form, it's fine to be

7:18

bored every once in a while. But

7:20

if you're chronically bored, bored, if you can't

7:22

escape from it, then it comes with some

7:24

dire some and consequences. and you need to

7:26

have the desire. you need to have the desire to be... whether

7:29

it's entertained or because you're distracted, but but unable to. to

7:31

So you need to both feel that

7:33

desire and feel that you are not being

7:35

given given. There's a sort of inability to

7:37

engage with something that you would otherwise

7:39

like to engage with. like to the way, Edward

7:41

is a teenager. Edward We a laughing about

7:43

this earlier on, but that is that is... an agent

7:45

you're more prone to this. prone to absolutely.

7:47

So So teenagers, adolescents, and students

7:50

in university education, they tend

7:52

to be more bored than

7:54

their older counterparts. So, is

7:56

definitely an issue among children. children.

7:59

also also a... I mean, Dara there

8:01

got, what was it, 27% in your

8:03

extremely scientific test? Yes. And I got

8:05

slightly lower. Do some people get more

8:08

bored than others? Yeah, there's quite a

8:10

bit of variability and the tendency for

8:12

people to get bored. Some people are

8:14

definitely more prone to boredom. In fact,

8:16

that's quite a serious issue because recent

8:19

work shows that, for example, people in

8:21

unemployment, people with lower education levels, and

8:23

people who are excluded from society are

8:25

far more likely to become bored in

8:28

their life, and also far more likely

8:30

to suffer its problematic outcomes. We've used

8:32

phrase like bored tears. Is there a

8:34

pathway between boredom and depression? Yes, definitely.

8:37

So people who are... inclined to be

8:39

bored, so this is this sort of

8:41

individual difference in the tendency to become

8:43

bored, they are at risk of becoming

8:46

depressed, they are at greater risk of

8:48

developing anxiety, they are at greater risk

8:50

for substance use, and the list of

8:52

risks is really long, so long-term boredom

8:55

or tendency to be unable to escape

8:57

your boredom. is something very serious. What

8:59

about spending time with people who are

9:01

bored? I sort of like to think

9:04

of myself as enjoying reverse click bait,

9:06

things that on the surface look like

9:08

they're extremely boring and then once you

9:10

actually dig into them become more and

9:13

more exciting. But I do find that

9:15

when I spend time with people who

9:17

do not find such thrills, the world

9:19

becomes a more boring place. Is it

9:22

contagious? I'm not sure, but you raise

9:24

another interesting point, and that is boredom

9:26

you find in activities that other people

9:28

may not find interesting. And we have

9:31

done research on what people perceive as

9:33

boring in others. And one of the

9:35

things that we found in the top

9:37

list of what makes another person boring,

9:39

is very typically, just to emphasize that,

9:42

is things related to math, numbers and

9:44

finance. How dare you? Come on, to

9:46

walk into our temple with this. Of

9:48

all the two people who speak about

9:51

this nersy nerdy. I'm so nervous. You're

9:53

lucky. You're lucky to hear it all.

9:55

These are non-mat. I mean, it's a

9:57

stereotype, right? So to make you a

10:00

little bit more happy, when we look

10:02

at the various activities, jobs and... that

10:04

people believe are stereotypically boring on the

10:06

low end on the list is for

10:09

example having a sense of humor and

10:11

comedy. That is not seen as boring.

10:13

As is being a scientist. So despite,

10:15

you know, science being very heavily... Science,

10:18

entertainment podcast, hello. Exactly, exactly. We are

10:20

in the sweet spot here. Right in

10:22

the middle. By the we both mentally

10:24

went to a vend diagram without... Yeah,

10:27

you're going to the other side again.

10:31

Haven't you got an Ig Nobel

10:33

Prize in this? Yes, we did

10:35

receive an Ig Nobel. Just explain

10:37

to me what the Ig Nobel

10:39

Prize is. Oh, sure. Yes, which

10:41

is for research, which is still

10:43

believed to have helped humanity, but...

10:45

On the surface seems quite silly.

10:47

Yes. Absolutely, yeah. So they run

10:49

an award ceremony every year in

10:51

one of America's most illustrious universities.

10:54

The chemistry ignobleprides was once given

10:56

to the person who invented the

10:58

scratch and sniff perfume strips in

11:00

magazines. Worth while, worthwhile contribution to

11:02

humanity. Yes, but you have one

11:04

of these awards. Yes, we did

11:06

receive one for research on boardman

11:08

education and in particular on the

11:10

link between boardman students and boardman

11:12

teachers. So what we found was

11:15

that if a teacher is bored

11:17

by the topic they are teaching.

11:19

the students tend to pick up

11:21

on this, even if they don't

11:23

consciously realize that the teacher is

11:25

bored. So it transfers to the

11:27

students, which in turn don't engage

11:29

as much. And in another part

11:31

of our research, we found that

11:33

if students come into, in this

11:36

case, university students, come into a

11:38

class, anticipating that it will be

11:40

dull. then it essentially makes sure

11:42

that they will be bored for

11:44

covers of the topic. Oh see,

11:46

I mean, personally, my experience, almost

11:48

the opposite. If you come into

11:50

my lectures, right, you think they

11:52

are going to be the most

11:54

boring things ever, and boy am

11:56

I going to prove you wrong.

11:59

Your expectations are squarely managed, so

12:01

I barely need to like lift

12:03

you up a tiny bit before

12:05

you're extremely impressed by everything I

12:07

do. I hope you're right. This

12:09

man is reward winning. It's saying

12:11

that you're wrong. Oh, some people

12:13

more boring than others. I mean,

12:15

do some people sort of come

12:17

across as more boring than others?

12:20

Yeah, there are particular behaviors that

12:22

cause others to find you more

12:24

boring. So one of them is

12:26

monotonous voices, talking a lot about

12:28

yourself instead of about others. talking

12:30

very fast, having no sense of

12:32

humor in conversations, these kind of

12:34

things cause others to find too

12:36

boring. Then there are hobbies that

12:38

are seen as boring. So for

12:40

example, observing animals like bird marching,

12:43

but also sleeping in a lot.

12:45

So if you were to combine

12:47

those all in one very, very

12:49

unlucky person, that would probably be

12:51

perceived as extremely boring, even though

12:53

they may themselves be very passionate

12:55

about what they're doing. However... By

12:57

then being an extremely boring person

12:59

according to science, thus makes them

13:01

interesting. So, at least goes all

13:04

around, loops all around. We actually

13:06

came across a group of people

13:08

who described themselves as dull. Have

13:10

a little listen to this. We

13:12

will meet you for Anarak of

13:14

the Year Award. And when you

13:16

get to meet these people, these

13:18

dull people, it's amazing how charismatic

13:20

they are. It's their hobby, is

13:22

that dull? My name's Kevin Beresford.

13:24

I'm the president of the UK

13:27

Roundabout Appreciation Society. There's nothing more

13:29

expressive than the one-way gyratory. And

13:31

like, you know, aces and a

13:33

sea of tarmac! I get a

13:35

lot of emails from round about

13:37

enthusiasts from around Britain. It's such

13:39

an easy hobby to take up.

13:41

My name is Archie Wertman and

13:43

they call me the drain spotter.

13:45

It's not quite like train spotting.

13:48

You don't have to stand on

13:50

the end of a platform and

13:52

wear an anorak. You can just

13:54

go out your front door and

13:56

walk along the road. It started

13:58

when I became a lensman for

14:00

my local parish. and part of

14:02

the job was cleaning the drains.

14:04

I took photographs of the drain

14:06

covers and I didn't realize that

14:09

there's so many different names cast

14:11

on the drain covers. They have

14:13

eight holes in them, nine holes,

14:15

somehow four, but I don't think

14:17

it's boring. It fascinates me that

14:19

all these drain covers were made

14:21

a long, long time ago and

14:23

they'll still be around after I've

14:25

gone. Heads

16:26

up, folks. Interest rates are falling. But as

16:28

of September 23rd, 2024, you can still lock

16:32

in a 6% or higher yield

16:34

with a bond account at public.com. That's

16:36

a pretty big deal, because

16:39

when rates drop, so can the interest you earn

16:41

on your cash. A bond account allows

16:43

you to lock in a 6% or

16:45

higher yield with a diversified

16:47

portfolio of high-yield and investment-grade

16:49

corporate bonds. So while

16:51

other people are watching their return shrink,

16:54

you can sit back with regular interest

16:56

payments. But you might want to

16:58

act fast, because your yield is not locked

17:00

in until you invest. The good news? It

17:02

only takes a couple of minutes to sign

17:05

up at public.com. Lock in a

17:07

6% or higher yield with a bond

17:09

account, only at public.com. Brought

17:12

to you by Public Investing, Member

17:14

Finratt, SIPC. Yield to worst is

17:16

not guaranteed, not an investment recommendation.

17:19

All investing involves risk. Visit public.com/disclosures

17:21

for more info. It

17:27

sort of feels as though, sometimes out of

17:29

boredom, you can find something useful and good

17:31

to do. Is there any evidence that boredom

17:34

can perhaps spark creativity? It's one of the

17:36

things that I think a lot of people

17:38

want to be true, that, you know, boredom

17:40

has so many negative outcomes, so wouldn't it

17:43

be nice if it also sparks creativity? And

17:45

there's some research on it, but it's very

17:47

inconclusive. It looks like if you take all

17:49

these different studies together, there's not a very

17:51

strong case to be made for boredom being

17:54

a force for creativity. Like creativity comes from

17:56

finding some inspiration somewhere instead. Yeah, so

17:58

creativity is typically associated

18:00

with having divergent thoughts. thoughts.

18:03

So thoughts are unrelated topics

18:05

and suddenly seeing a connection between the

18:07

two. the two. And boredom is associated with,

18:09

for example, mind wandering, but but

18:11

not constructive enough to actually cause

18:13

creativity. Well, that's very Well, that's very interesting.

18:15

what do we mean by mind Mike,

18:18

Is it the same as my mind-wandering?

18:20

Is it the same as wandering as of define

18:22

mental thoughts that are not

18:24

externally directed towards the task that

18:26

is related to your goals. your

18:28

goals? But you can also mind

18:30

wander in where you're not engaged in

18:33

a task and the mind the mind

18:35

wondering maybe goal itself is to think

18:37

about the future, think about the

18:39

past it it may be directed,

18:41

it may be intentional, it can

18:44

also be unintentional. It can have

18:46

positive emotions emotions, and enjoy it it, or

18:48

can have negative emotions. It can

18:50

be be -native or intrusive kinds of

18:52

thoughts that you have less control control

18:54

of. I do wonder, Dara, this is an is

18:57

an experience that's happened to me only a couple

18:59

of times, but when I've been on but when I've

19:01

been on I know very well. that I know my

19:03

mind can be having an entirely

19:05

different conversation. conversation with itself about what

19:07

I'm going to be having for dinner,

19:09

while outwardly, I'm just for dinner, while outwardly, I'm just

19:11

this presentation. giving this presentation. Yeah, you've done the

19:13

same material over and over again, done it

19:15

becomes like a mechanical process, and your

19:17

mind can wander off. like a of course,

19:19

we know that as you and they

19:22

become more automatic, that they require less

19:24

cognitive control or effort, so you have

19:26

that ability. But we've actually done some

19:28

work where we can interrupt people and

19:30

we can get a sense of how

19:32

motivated are you at the moment and

19:34

how much your mind is wandering your mind is

19:36

wandering at the moment. And we find is

19:38

when people is minds are say their minds

19:40

are They tend to be making to be making more

19:43

That takes them off them that

19:45

has that has a cost. But when people are

19:47

highly motivated, their mind wandering isn't very

19:49

costly to their performance. And I think

19:51

that we do that, you know, potentially know,

19:53

we're driving, we know when we can

19:55

kind of go we can kind of we can

19:57

start to can less of our attentional

19:59

resources towards. you know, our control of the

20:01

car and more towards other kinds of

20:04

processes. I'm wondering about something, for example,

20:06

like an airport security worker watching things

20:08

going past over and over and over

20:10

again, maintaining the concentration to what is

20:13

in some ways probably quite a simple

20:15

task. Do we see their ability to

20:17

tailing off over time? Is that fatigue?

20:19

Is it boredom? That kind of job.

20:22

How does that affect about this? That's

20:24

a fantastic question and it's something that...

20:26

is really characteristic of these tasks that

20:28

we have developed and that other people

20:31

use, which is that you're doing these

20:33

boring repetitive tasks. And you may have

20:35

very rare kinds of deviations where you

20:37

have to detect a rare target that's

20:40

very infrequent. And we find that people

20:42

start off pretty good. It's not that

20:44

hard to do in any one moment.

20:46

It's just hard to do for long

20:49

periods of time. And so we see

20:51

this kind of classic. what's called a

20:53

decrement. And this is really different than

20:55

a lot of other kinds of tasks,

20:58

right? We think about, oh, practice. If

21:00

I do a lot of tasks, the

21:02

more you do it, the better you

21:04

get. But these are tasks where actually

21:07

the more you do it, the worse

21:09

you get. You know, we see these

21:11

decrements over time consistently. in just eight

21:13

minutes without a break or you know

21:16

even short periods like that. You know

21:18

that that point that you made about

21:20

motivation really is kind of coming clear

21:22

to me because you know in airport

21:25

security the companies deliberately put in fake

21:27

images of sort of guns and bombs

21:29

in order to to keep people away

21:31

keep people checking sort of increase their

21:34

motivation because if they don't miss them

21:36

then they get in trouble. Also by

21:38

the way I should tell you that

21:40

the number that they expect people to

21:43

correctly identify is 60% so. Okay great

21:45

that's reassuring. 40% of those fake guns

21:47

and bombs go right through. Early studies

21:50

that sort of examine these decrements over

21:52

time positive this idea that maybe attention

21:54

is a resource that depletes over time

21:56

it runs you run out of gas

21:59

like a muscle just gets tired. But

22:01

the evidence hasn't really been in favor

22:03

of those models. So that has kind

22:05

of led to the development of these

22:08

models that are really more tied to

22:10

reward and motivation. The idea is that

22:12

our attention is limited, but it's not

22:14

limited because it runs out. It's limited

22:17

that we can only attend to one

22:19

or two things at a time. We

22:21

can't do everything at once. And so

22:23

the value of... a single task is

22:26

always a tradeoff to the value of

22:28

the alternative. In other words, could I

22:30

be doing something better? That would be

22:32

more fun or rewarding. So the question

22:35

is, how do we keep people motivated

22:37

after eight minutes of this boring task

22:39

or 10 minutes of this boring task?

22:41

And so we told them that there

22:44

was, and it was true, that there

22:46

was one trial, we call it the

22:48

magic trial, and if they got that

22:50

trial right, so basically found this fake

22:53

gun, basically. they would get a bonus

22:55

of $14, which is pretty good for

22:57

a short time. But we told them

22:59

we wouldn't tell them which was the

23:02

magic gun until right afterwards, but actually

23:04

was always 10 minutes in. And we

23:06

found that if we dangled this carrot

23:08

of $14 to find that fake gun,

23:11

people were totally able to maintain their

23:13

attention and they didn't fall off over

23:15

time. Amazing. Which just showed that how

23:17

malleable this ability is. How do you

23:20

test how much somebody's mind wonders? We

23:22

do tasks, really boring tasks, they kind

23:24

of have this continuous flow to them.

23:26

People have to engage in very monotonous,

23:29

routinized behavior, and it encourages internal thoughts

23:31

about anything else than this. Okay, so

23:33

we have a version of the star

23:36

that we can, this is much more

23:38

scientific than the test that we did

23:40

earlier. Okay. Something called the gradual onset

23:42

continuous performance test. What we have to

23:45

do is every time we see any

23:47

number apart from three, we have to

23:49

press a space bar. And you have

23:51

to ignore all the backgrounds and just

23:54

crack on. Okay, here we go, let's

23:56

go. Oh, I can't. They're very far.

23:58

So they're a fashion theater. It's a

24:00

surprise night. So it's those are pictures

24:03

of furniture and numbers being projected in

24:05

front of them and anytime there's a...

24:07

Oh damn. You have almost no time

24:09

to think in between each number coming

24:12

up. And now we've got some puppies.

24:14

Puppies and kittens. That's so strange. Are

24:16

you measuring my baby fox? Of course

24:18

I'm just talking about baby fox. Oh

24:21

no. We've been promised that some of

24:23

these images are going to be more

24:25

disturbing than others. And thus far this

24:27

is just absolutely as absolutely delightful. Oh,

24:31

there's a mean leopard now.

24:33

He has a baby in

24:35

incubator. That's a little bit

24:37

more. Some images from what?

24:39

Oh, dogs fighting. Yes. Oh,

24:41

a sad dog. A bit

24:43

more of that. Oh, I

24:46

definitely was distracted. Oh, no.

24:48

They've become a bit more

24:50

intense. I've done that again.

24:52

Now they're taking images from

24:54

Attenborough documentaries, essentially. Oh, no.

24:57

I've never listened to so much commentary during

24:59

the test then. What did you find? Okay,

25:01

well, that was incredibly entertaining, but there's quite

25:04

gross in some of these. All right, tell

25:06

us about this test then. What did you

25:08

find? Okay, well, that was incredibly entertaining to

25:10

listen. I've never listened to so much commentary

25:12

during the test. I mean, would that help

25:15

us or not help us? I don't know,

25:17

I think we're extra focused. By the way,

25:19

can you just carry on doing this while

25:21

you're talking? You don't know. Can you just

25:23

concentrate on three tasks at once? Presenting a

25:26

radio show and completing the psychology experiment. Yeah.

25:28

Yeah, this is something. What do you find

25:30

in general? When we have no distractors present,

25:32

so there's nothing in the background, we find

25:34

that one of the sources of attention failures

25:36

are internal thoughts. Really, again, thinking about what

25:39

else could I be doing better when you're

25:41

doing this is, well, I think about something

25:43

about something else. So that we develop this

25:45

because a lot of times in the world

25:47

our attention is focused on one and there

25:50

are other things in the environment that could

25:52

take us away from our sustained attention. We

25:54

look at the number of errors that people

25:56

make, and we can see how they vary

25:58

with the presence of the pictures as well

26:01

as with the emotion of the pictures, and

26:03

then we can also subjectively interrupt them, and

26:05

we can ask them, okay, at that moment,

26:07

were you more focused on the digits, or

26:09

did you get more focused by these background

26:12

distractors? So what we find is that yes,

26:14

putting those distractors there. makes it harder for

26:16

people to sustain their attention. But we find

26:18

that the worst case is when those images

26:20

are highly arousing in the negative domain. That's

26:23

when people are most disrupted. Here's a question,

26:25

Michael. When you're at a party and you're

26:27

talking to somebody and are you especially attuned

26:29

to whether they're properly listening to you or

26:31

not? I feel like I am always hearing

26:34

the other conversations happening at once and I

26:36

have a very difficult time tuning out multiple

26:38

conversations. Absolutely amazing. I'm noticing myself not paying

26:40

attention. And then your mind's wondering about mind

26:42

wondering. Yes, yes, exactly. I just want to

26:45

bring it back to you if I can.

26:47

sort of actually trying to host the show

26:49

while doing this test. And I think that's

26:51

a variable that they haven't included in this

26:53

in this examination. The radio tour of Saturday

26:56

mornings. Yeah, that can you do it while

26:58

actively attempting to host a radio show? I'm

27:00

glad you're enjoying it. Thank you. There was

27:02

one particular one of a golden retriever which

27:04

we have a golden retriever and a baby

27:07

besides and they kind of went over like,

27:09

come on, what are you doing here? What

27:11

can you do about this though Michael if

27:13

you wanted to use your learnings to actively

27:15

increase your attention and minimize your unhelpful mind

27:17

wondering? What could you do? I think it's

27:20

tough. I think there's been a lot of

27:22

work to try and develop cognitive training where

27:24

people do different kinds of tasks. Maybe they're

27:26

working memory tasks or in this case, an

27:28

attention or an inhibitory control. These different kinds

27:31

of constructs that kind of around this idea

27:33

of attention control. And the evidence has been

27:35

pretty mixed and not that strong that even

27:37

though you can get a lot better at

27:39

the tasks that you're training on, it doesn't

27:42

necessarily generalize really well. One of the things

27:44

that seems to help attention is meditation. Dozens

27:46

of studies and meta analyses have shown that

27:48

there are some small to moderate effects, although

27:50

there's certainly selection bias there, not everyone. can

27:53

meditate is able to do that. In fact,

27:55

maybe some of the people who have the

27:57

worst attention are going to have the hardest

27:59

time doing that kind of intervention. What is

28:01

it about meditation that means that you can

28:04

increase your attention on things? Is it about

28:06

how you're practicing your awareness almost? Yes, I

28:08

think that would be my guess is that

28:10

you become a little bit more, potentially it

28:12

helps you become more aware of where your

28:15

attention is focused. and when it's not focused

28:17

on, say, your task, and maybe with that

28:19

enhanced awareness, you can. nudge yourself back on

28:21

more effectively than finding yourself catastrophicly off task.

28:23

Mike I finished your test and the screen

28:26

came up said your scores have been successfully

28:28

saved you can close this page I've needed

28:30

a result nor $14 I wish you can

28:32

complain about the test you made me look

28:34

at pictures of puppies and then unhappy puppies

28:37

while I take the button where my results

28:39

got I didn't expect to come up like

28:41

a you know like a buzz feed test

28:43

ago you are the best concentrator in the

28:45

world but still the test just came up

28:48

it said you're the it actually said you're

28:50

the best concentrator in the world that's the

28:52

result I wanted more than anything else why

28:54

not what are we doing with our boredom

28:56

thresholds I mean are we hacking them with

28:58

phones and and dooms scrolling are we making

29:01

boredom more likely to occur and is there

29:03

anything we can do about it yeah yeah

29:05

so the research does show that people's ability

29:07

to deal with boredom is on the mind

29:09

by faults and that boredom levels are generally

29:12

rising But I think we have to take

29:14

that also with a little bit of a

29:16

pinch of salt. Phones, phones, smartphones are relatively

29:18

new technology. Maybe society hasn't adapted to it

29:20

fully yet. I'd like to see in the

29:23

coming decades if we can make smartphone use

29:25

a part of our society without necessarily all

29:27

those problematic outcomes. One thing that seems to

29:29

be in common about that, long-term, boredom is

29:31

not a good thing for your health. Yeah,

29:34

that's correct. And what kind of activity should

29:36

people be seeking to alleviate their own board?

29:38

There are some strategies that we have identified

29:40

that might help people with alleviating poverty. It

29:42

will be a very individual approach. But one

29:45

key attribute of boring activities is that people

29:47

reported have no agency over what they're doing.

29:49

So in context, for example, of a bored

29:51

child, when I was bored as a kid,

29:53

I would go to my parents and say,

29:56

I'm so bored, and you know, and they

29:58

would... invariably say something like, oh you can

30:00

clean your room, or you can help me

30:02

with the dishes, it's something that obviously wouldn't

30:04

make any difference. And the key issue here

30:07

is that you have no agency over those

30:09

tasks. You're assigned those tasks, it's not something

30:11

you do out of your own volition. And

30:13

we know in students and children that this

30:15

ability to choose what you want to do

30:18

is really important. When we move a bit

30:20

further to adults, there's some other strategies that

30:22

might be useful. Positive, what we call self-transending

30:24

emotions, such as gratitude, all, and self-compassion or

30:26

compassion to others. If people actively practice this,

30:29

they'll also feel less bored themselves. whenever you

30:31

feel bored in the moment, try to think

30:33

of something you're grateful for, try to think

30:35

of something that makes you feel with all,

30:37

like looking up at the sky or something

30:39

like that, and that might at least in

30:42

the moment be a relief of your boredom.

30:44

So in many ways, it's a very individual

30:46

journey, but you've just got to find your

30:48

own gyratory round about it. Exactly, exactly. That's

30:50

the key to it all. Well, on that

30:53

note, thank you so much. To both of

30:55

our guests for today, Vinan Vantelberg and Mike

30:57

Esterman. ironically, very interesting. I haven't

30:59

I am immediately throwing

31:01

away my phone Yeah, no,

31:04

no, I don't no, I

31:06

don't doing good at all.

31:08

all. But how are you

31:10

gonna can say that to Edward, the

31:12

I mean, what, we're

31:15

gonna just go, what, we're

31:17

going put down your

31:19

phone, that's the key, phone,

31:21

that's read a book. read

31:23

a book? Yeah, as somebody who somebody

31:26

who has teenagers for

31:28

kids, I can imagine

31:30

that go down that

31:32

well. down that well. No, it doesn't work.

31:34

Edward, through it, it. Just

31:37

just sit through it, it,

31:39

man. on tight, five

31:41

years to go, five years

31:43

to go. Five hold

31:45

years tight, to go. go,

31:48

Five years to go, go. Five

31:50

go. Whatever you want,

31:52

the whole world is

31:54

there for you. You'll

31:56

be bored want. The trust

31:59

me. is there for you. You'll be

32:01

bored at it, trust me. Subscribe to curious

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Yoga is more than just

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