0:00

Welcome back to

0:00

Dad, You're Wrong. It's been a

0:03

while and that's on me the

0:03

Producer. This episode was

0:06

recorded about a year ago, all

0:06

discussions of vaccines in

0:10

relation to COVID-19 is purely

0:10

hypothetical. We've all gotten

0:14

our vaccine since then, and

0:14

strongly encourage you to do the

0:16

same as soon as you're able, due

0:16

to variants and inconsistent

0:20

coverage for immune compromised

0:20

individuals and vaccines not yet

0:23

available for children. We also

0:23

recommend you continue wearing

0:27

masks in public. And now onto

0:27

the show.

0:41

Welcome to Dad, You're Wrong.

0:44

So where do we always start, Chi?

0:46

With the basic theories

0:46

of Dad You're Wrong, which are,

0:50

as follows

0:52

in this order,

0:53

people worth talking to

0:53

are worth talking to, which I

0:57

guess is like not all people.

0:57

That's the part that I always

0:59

forget not all people are worth

0:59

talking to.

1:01

Yeah, definitely hashtag not all people

1:03

hashtag not all people

1:03

are worth talking to. 2. This

1:07

doesn't mean that you'll always

1:07

agree with the people that

1:10

you're talking to that are worth

1:10

talking to. Number three, when a

1:13

conversation gets intense, or

1:13

you don't have an energy or

1:16

you'd have a really long day and

1:16

somebody still like wrong and

1:20

the conversation gets intense,

1:20

some people are overwhelming to

1:25

talk to. 4. being unable to

1:25

think of a good argument in the

1:29

heat of the moment, doesn't mean

1:29

that you don't have a good

1:32

argument to make.

1:34

I think hashtag not all

1:34

people are worth talking to is

1:37

definitely a shirt idea.

1:39

I mean, for you

1:42

If that's what we're

1:42

starting, where are we going

1:44

this time?

1:45

So where we are going

1:45

is somebody actually wrote us in

1:48

with an example of somebody

1:48

posting about the Coronavirus,

1:54

and were against the idea of the

1:54

government forcing people to

1:59

have to take the coronavirus

1:59

vaccine. But that doesn't exist

2:06

yet. So but they it's a lot of

2:06

the arguments are very similar

2:11

to other anti Vax arguments.

2:13

Since this came in from

2:13

Facebook exchange that was sent

2:16

to us, we're not going to read

2:16

the whole thing. We're going to

2:18

summarize it. And as far as I

2:18

can tell, the shortest version

2:23

is there is a person who is

2:23

afraid of the government and

2:28

governmental paternalism. And

2:28

I'm going to try to minimally

2:33

editorialize what they said. But

2:33

they have made anti vaxxer

2:38

arguments with extremely poor

2:38

non sequiturs. And the person

2:43

who sent us this mentioned that

2:43

people who are old or young or

2:47

immunocompromised, or have other

2:47

issues that may cause them to

2:53

have trouble with diseases, who

2:53

need that herd immunity,

2:57

actually need this to be done as

2:57

a group. And argues that a

3:02

person's personal feelings are

3:02

essentially a sign that they

3:07

don't actually care about

3:07

society, they're just being

3:09

selfish. And the person

3:09

responds, that they don't know

3:15

what they're talking about, and

3:15

are trying to say, you can

3:18

naturally boost your immune

3:18

system without understanding

3:22

that some people may be on

3:22

immunosuppressants, because some

3:28

illnesses are an overactive

3:28

immune system, which can cause

3:32

the more problems but also can

3:32

cause side effects like you

3:36

might catch a deadly disease.

3:36

And that's why herd immunity is

3:40

important. It's a Facebook

3:40

conversation. So it goes about

3:43

what you think of Facebook

3:43

conversation goes, our original

3:48

write-in very smartly, decided

3:48

not to respond as we're in the

3:53

middle of a pandemic, and they

3:53

have immune system problems. So

3:59

a mutual friend jumped in to

3:59

start arguing, but Chi you want

4:02

to cover what we're actually talking about today.

4:05

I thought you just did.

4:05

You just did you totally beat me

4:09

to it. We're talking about,

4:09

like, kind of anti vaxxer

4:12

arguments and like, sort of how

4:12

you can think about that. And I

4:17

think, common mistakes that like

4:17

people makes

4:20

is this not the episode

4:20

where we're talking about people

4:22

who aren't worth talking to

4:24

no, we're, the episode

4:24

is about people that are worth

4:27

talking to, but are also like,

4:27

how do you talk somebody out of

4:33

being anti vaxxer? That's the

4:33

real episode like headline. How

4:37

do you talk someone out of being

4:37

an anti vaxxer?

4:39

We can't we're not doing

4:39

an easy episode in the age of

4:42

Coronavirus.

4:43

No. Are you joking? No,

4:43

we don't do easy things.

4:50

Okay, I'm in. I'm in for

4:50

hardmode All right. All right. I

4:55

did not realize that this was

4:55

the expert mode episode but

4:58

buckle up everyone because

4:58

you're in for a ride in which I

5:02

desperately try not to say "Why

5:02

are you talking to them?"

5:04

But this time? It's not

5:04

my bringing, although I do have

5:08

people that I talked to that

5:08

are, unfortunately antivaxxer.

5:12

Well, you live in California,

5:13

Yeah, right? And so

5:13

that's an issue that I do deal

5:16

with. But yeah, I dunno like

5:16

everything else. [exasperated

5:21

sigh] You have to, like, start

5:21

somewhere sometimes or work with

5:25

people that like you don't agree with.

5:27

Alright, so we're starting

5:27

from the assumption that this

5:31

person, despite being both

5:31

scientifically, and political

5:37

scientifically suspect in their

5:37

beliefs, is still a worthy

5:41

friend and worth talking to. And

5:41

we need to know how to talk them

5:44

down off this libertarian

5:44

terrible vaccination Cliff in

5:49

which they don't know what they're talking about, and are just spewing nonsense on

5:51

Facebook.

5:53

Yes. Also, I would like

5:53

to say that like a lot of these

5:56

people, and this is something

5:56

that like, it took me a long

5:59

time to kind of be out on the

5:59

other side of college from my

6:02

friend who's doesn't like

6:02

vaccines, is smart and used the

6:07

intelligence that they have to

6:07

sort of talk themselves away

6:11

from vaccines, the Netflix

6:11

documentary about flat earthers,

6:15

behind the curve talks about

6:15

that these can be people that

6:18

aren't stupid, that can make

6:18

arguments, but unfortunately,

6:23

are operating under either

6:23

selfish or, basically, between

6:28

the lines of shortage of

6:28

information, like trusting

6:32

actual facts, and a shortage of

6:32

imagination.

6:37

Both anecdotally, and I

6:37

believe there was a study done

6:40

on this, it's actually harder to

6:40

disabuse people who are

6:45

intelligent of conspiracy

6:45

theories, than it is people who

6:48

fall within the average ranges

6:48

of intelligence, in large part

6:52

because they are intelligent

6:52

enough to make up their own

6:56

reasonings behind things that

6:56

people who are not quite as

7:00

clever as they are, are not able

7:00

to do. This is sort of the root

7:05

of the whole d&d int vs wisdom

7:05

stat, where you can have a very

7:09

high int and put wisdom as your

7:09

dumps stat there are a lot of

7:12

people like that in the world,

7:12

who think they are very smart

7:16

and perhaps are very good at

7:16

putting facts together, but are

7:19

not very wise about the way they

7:19

interpret facts. And those can

7:23

be some of the most difficult

7:23

people to deal with. Because

7:26

they will believe we've talked

7:26

about this on previous episodes,

7:30

that idea that you believe

7:30

you're being objective or

7:33

logical when you're really just

7:33

going through your own self

7:38

fulfilling arguments and not

7:38

listening to outside

7:40

information. So I hope I didn't

7:40

imply earlier that this person

7:45

was unintelligent, because I

7:45

don't actually think they are

7:49

and arguably, if they were, it

7:49

would make them easier to

7:53

convince, whereas this person

7:53

will likely be very difficult to

7:56

convince because they think they

7:56

have good arguments, and it will

8:00

be hard to convince them they

8:00

don't

8:03

Hm. Okay,

8:05

yeah

8:05

so do you want to go

8:05

through some of the main points

8:08

that the person is making

8:09

sure I'll do it Am I

8:09

annoying know-it-all voice

8:12

haha. Oh, God yours

8:12

is... Okay. Keep, no keep going.

8:16

Wait, are you x-carding this?

8:20

No, no. No, just razzing you a

8:20

little bit about being a

8:26

know-it-all, just a little,

8:27

I could not do it.

8:28

No, do it.

8:29

We don't need governments

8:29

forcing us to take vaccines and

8:32

pharmaceutical drugs, if you

8:32

just take personal

8:34

responsibility for your health

8:34

and lifestyle. If we don't

8:38

exercise our liberties and

8:38

sovereignity they'll be taken

8:40

away from us. If we don't act

8:40

like adults will be controlled

8:43

like children, (which by the way

8:43

is what not taking vaccines is

8:47

is acting like children). But I

8:47

don't want to be forced to take

8:51

a vaccine or drug when I don't

8:51

need it to be healthy or

8:53

employed. Also, people shouldn't

8:53

buy into the media's fear

8:57

mongering. These are all very

8:57

generic arguments. I don't know

9:00

if I realized that until I was

9:00

saying them out loud.

9:02

It's why it's a good

9:02

example. Also, did you

9:05

purposefully do this as like an

9:05

impression of me because that's

9:09

what I think that I sound like

9:09

in your head.

9:11

That's not at all what you

9:11

sound like in my head. But I'm

9:14

glad you felt called out because

9:14

if I can make you feel called

9:17

out I know I'm reaching our

9:17

target audience. Anyway, our

9:23

hero because they listened to

9:23

Good Job Brain said, Hey, we

9:26

live in a society and vaccines

9:26

protect the weakest in our

9:29

society. It's good to know who's

9:29

an anti vaccine because they are

9:33

literally trying to kill people.

9:33

And then this responder was

9:38

like, Yeah, whatever. But I

9:38

could boost your immune system

9:42

if you really cared. It just

9:42

requires some discipline and

9:45

focus. And the positive results

9:45

speak for themselves because I

9:49

(as a privileged person with a

9:49

working body). They worked for

9:52

me. It improved me and built

9:52

communities relationships with

9:56

nature and my internal systems.

9:56

If one gets a vaccine, it makes

10:00

You weak, it just stopped the

10:00

virus in your weakened immune

10:03

system not mine. Viruses never

10:03

mutate. No, they didn't say

10:07

that. Sorry. That's me editorializing

10:08

zero just the script.

10:10

The vaccinated should have

10:10

nothing to fear. It's the nun

10:13

vaccinated that ought to many

10:13

you get vaccinated still get the

10:17

flu and other illnesses the

10:17

vaccines are supposed to stop.

10:21

While others don't

10:22

okay. Can we stop now?

10:22

Jesus,

10:25

we can stop whenever

10:26

Let's stop there. Let's

10:26

stop and tackle what we have

10:29

could take first shots.

10:30

Let me make sure I got

10:30

through all their points because

10:32

it's real repetitive at this point.

10:34

Yeah.

10:35

Some vaccines have harmful

10:35

chemicals in them that are

10:37

detrimental to the body and mind

10:37

is sort of already covered but

10:40

it was distinct. We shouldn't be

10:40

so we're going to trust

10:42

pharmaceutical companies. People

10:42

should not be held responsible

10:46

or penalized for not taking

10:46

vaccines when they are using

10:49

healthy, sustainable

10:49

alternatives. And then our hero

10:54

asks, the way they could have

10:54

jumped in and what the best way

10:57

forward would have been, since

10:57

they have faith that the person

11:00

that we're convincing is

11:00

convince-able, but they're

11:02

having a hard time figure out

11:02

where their common ground is

11:04

strongest to try to pull him

11:04

back from the dangerous path he

11:07

has been led on and letting out.

11:07

It's a dude. Many of you are

11:10

shocked by this

11:11

to what

11:12

I was trying to avoid

11:12

gendering anyone in this

11:15

conversation, and then I failed.

11:15

So I'm just rolling with it.

11:17

I will say that it is

11:17

not dude's only and I know this

11:22

because when I was young in

11:22

college and able bodied and

11:26

never been around people who had

11:26

been immunocompromised, and,

11:30

like not worried about it as

11:30

much. Yeah, I was like a

11:33

libertarian. And then I grew a

11:33

heart and was like, I'm not

11:36

gonna do this anymore. You know

11:36

what sucks, my friends dying.

11:40

And just people in general like

11:40

not just my friends, but people

11:44

in general dying sucks. Like, it

11:44

is not great. And I think that

11:49

that's something that like

11:49

fucking Ayn Rand and stuff.

11:51

Although I do like what is the

11:51

one with the lightbulb anthem

11:54

anthem, I like anthem is like a

11:54

dystopian future. But most of

11:57

her shit is like, whatever, fuck

11:57

'em, it sucks. I don't like that

12:01

rule.

12:02

I object to the claim that

12:02

of the metaphors that we all

12:05

learned in The Wizard of Oz. For

12:05

those of us who've seen the

12:08

Wizard of Oz, the heart was the

12:08

part you were missing. Because

12:11

I've known you a long time at

12:11

heart is definitely not the gap

12:14

sometimes.

12:17

Or maybe imagination,

12:17

that would be another good one.

12:19

And that was the

12:21

that's Charlie in the

12:21

Chocolate Factory. Not even the

12:25

same movie.

12:26

Zero, you're mixing

12:26

metaphors with me, I don't, I'm

12:30

just gonna plow forward, I'm just gonna go forward.

12:32

We're mixing metaphors

12:32

together. It's a team effort.

12:35

So the first one is

12:35

taking responsibility for your

12:38

health and lifestyle choices.

12:38

You can through whatever means

12:42

that this person says discipline

12:42

is one of them, just magically

12:46

increase your immune system. And

12:46

it took me a long time to kind

12:51

of think about all of the people

12:51

that that's just not true for.

12:55

And I think that like you were

12:55

giving some examples earlier, or

12:57

talking about people that just

12:57

are immune compromised. But for

13:00

a lot of people, that's sort of

13:00

hard to imagine how many people

13:06

fall into that category. So

13:06

yeah, everyone that has another

13:12

disease, everyone, that's old,

13:12

everyone, that's infants and

13:15

babies, also didn't realize this

13:15

before it happened. But pregnant

13:19

people have a really hard time.

13:19

And so you're sort of just

13:22

throwing all of those people

13:22

under the bus. And then someone

13:26

in my husband's jam band, like

13:26

surprise, had been on like chemo

13:30

and been in the jam band, and

13:30

then then been like, yeah, by

13:33

the way, I'm not going to come

13:33

this time because I can't get

13:36

sick. Because I'll die. It's so

13:36

many more people than like, what

13:41

this person is thinking about.

13:41

And in so many cases, it's

13:45

something that I have been a

13:45

very able bodied person most of

13:50

my life. And until now, it's

13:50

like, you're asking people to

13:53

not have this thing happened to

13:53

them or not get chemo or not do

14:00

all of these other take their medication.

14:02

That's all a good point,

14:02

the invisibility of illness is

14:06

something that it's extremely

14:06

hard for people to deal with.

14:08

And that sort of out of sight,

14:08

out of mind thing. I know that

14:12

there was a message on Twitter

14:12

when this was all starting, that

14:15

somebody was like, my brother

14:15

was okay with this, when they

14:19

heard that 1 million people

14:19

might die until our dad got

14:25

sick. And they're like, Oh, no,

14:25

he's 70. He might die. And I was

14:28

like, bitch who did you think

14:28

those 1 million people were?

14:31

Yeah, that's a very good example.

14:33

And so a large part of

14:33

this, because I have also been

14:37

there in college. It's very easy

14:37

for us to fall into this idea of

14:42

things we were taught or

14:42

absorbed when we were growing

14:44

up, either through cultural

14:44

osmosis or through personal

14:47

experience, where maybe you did

14:47

have someone who got really ill

14:51

and had a disease and got

14:51

better. And so to you, this

14:55

person becomes the example for

14:55

me a lot of it was sort of this

14:59

idea that you could power

14:59

through mental illnesses that is

15:02

very common in our society,

15:02

which is not the exact same, but

15:05

it leads to the similar thoughts

15:05

of, if you can't power through

15:09

it, you're weak, which is

15:09

essentially what is being

15:12

expressed in this Facebook

15:12

message except about physical

15:15

illnesses, I guess, instead of

15:15

mental ones. So it's a mistake

15:20

any of us can really make. And

15:20

as you pointed out, before, that

15:24

I'll call back to making this

15:24

mistake doesn't mean you're

15:27

stupid. And acknowledging you've

15:27

made a mistake. And changing

15:32

your point of view, doesn't

15:32

require you to be very

15:36

intelligent, in fact, being very

15:36

intelligent can actually get in

15:38

the way of this. towards that

15:38

point, we can kind of talk about

15:43

where these ideas come from, and

15:43

the roots of some of the ideas

15:47

that are being talked about in

15:47

here. And once we get to the

15:51

roots of what's going on, we can

15:51

come back around to how do you

15:57

converse with this person, find

15:57

a common ground, and hopefully

16:01

convince them that because to

16:01

address the question that was

16:05

being asked, this person does

16:05

seem to care about your well

16:08

being as an individual. And in

16:08

general, if a person cares about

16:13

you, it's a good starting point

16:13

for conversation. People tend to

16:17

care about people who are close

16:17

to them, more than they care

16:20

about strangers and people they can't see.

16:21

It's easier. I mean,

16:21

like, that's kind of the way

16:24

that our brains are built.

16:25

Yeah,

16:25

it just is, you have to

16:25

be able to and want to

16:30

extrapolate that feeling for

16:30

more and more people.

16:34

Yeah. And that's kind of

16:34

what empathy and sympathy are.

16:37

The hard side effect that is

16:37

that I want to warn the original

16:40

poster is that if a person has a

16:40

higher regard for the things

16:45

they have learned,

16:45

quote-unquote, and are not

16:48

willing to give up, using the

16:48

personal will drive them away

16:52

from you. It's one of the

16:52

weaknesses we talked about

16:54

Aristotelian rhetoric, when we

16:54

talk about pathos, as opposed to

16:58

ethos, and logos, ethos, and

16:58

logos are the harder paths.

17:03

pathos is in many ways, also the

17:03

easiest bridge to burn. We're

17:07

seeing a lot in our country

17:07

right now, where people assume

17:10

that if you criticize certain

17:10

high profile members of the

17:14

community, you just hate them

17:14

specifically, not that you have

17:17

good arguments to make. It

17:17

happens all the time. So that's

17:20

why you have to be careful using

17:20

that pathos argument.

17:23

Particularly that relates to

17:23

you. But it is a good starting

17:27

point. And pathos should be part

17:27

of a well constructed argument.

17:30

So I want to remind people that

17:30

pathos is not inherently bad.

17:34

And it is good to use it to

17:34

construct an argument. And if a

17:37

person cares about you, it's

17:37

very easy in and I'll double

17:41

back on that later.

17:43

I want to take apart what you were saying, because I just want to make sure I'm

17:45

getting it straight. So you're saying that in this specific

17:46

conversation, where the person

17:50

is like, I shouldn't be forced

17:50

to do this thing. And then our

17:54

write-in is like, but I am

17:54

immune compromised. So think

17:58

about the effect that you're

17:58

having on me, which is like a

18:01

pathos sort of argument. And

18:01

then they're like, well, but

18:04

like, I've learned to do this

18:04

thing, which is a logos

18:08

argument, right? Am I taking

18:08

this apart correctly?

18:11

Uh, yeah?

18:13

And so then, by

18:13

continuing that, like, this is

18:17

my experience. They're burning

18:17

the bridge of pathos because

18:21

they're like, logos is like what

18:21

I'm following. And so I'm not

18:24

going to listen to you and your

18:24

anecdotal, lived experience.

18:29

Sort of what I'm saying is

18:29

that if you push too hard on a

18:32

personal argument with somebody

18:32

who A lot of people think of

18:36

themselves as more important

18:36

than the people around them,

18:38

there's actually nothing really

18:38

wrong with this. It is the

18:41

unfortunate logical kernel of

18:41

objectivism, because you

18:44

mentioned Rand earlier, is that

18:44

you do have to take care of

18:47

yourself to take care of other

18:47

people. There's nothing wrong

18:50

with that premise.

18:51

Yeah,

18:51

it's when you extrapolate

18:51

it wildly into this idea that

18:54

you're more important than

18:54

everybody, and cannot show what

18:59

you are using in yourself to

18:59

create good spaces for other

19:03

people, that you start to get

19:03

into questionable logical

19:06

territory. That gets into some

19:06

deep philosophical concepts like

19:09

humanism, and stuff that maybe

19:09

we can talk about a bit later,

19:13

or will come up in very high

19:13

overview in this episode. This

19:17

is not a paid advertisement. But

19:17

if you really want to hear deep

19:20

dives into these sorts of

19:20

philosophies, go and listen to

19:22

Rationally Speaking, they're

19:22

amazing. They're an inspiration

19:25

for this podcast, and will do a

19:25

much better job than we will

19:29

covering the depth of these

19:29

philosophies. I'm going to stick

19:32

to gross over generalizations

19:32

when I talk to them. Because the

19:36

goal of our podcast is to let

19:36

you converse with lay people

19:41

essentially,

19:42

which we are,

19:43

I would argue that you are

19:43

not necessarily a lay person

19:47

when it comes to human

19:47

interactions. Don't you have a

19:49

degree in anthropology?

19:51

Well, yeah, but I'm not

19:51

like a doctor, like, you know

19:54

what I mean? A. I don't have a

19:54

doctorate like I'm not a PhD and

19:59

B. We're talking about parts of

19:59

the human body. In talking about

20:04

vaccines, that I'm not going to

20:04

say that I'm an expert in, and I

20:08

don't think that you are.

20:10

Here's our disclaimer, we

20:10

are not doctors. If you need to

20:13

get vaccinated, go to your

20:13

doctor and get a vaccine.

20:17

You need to get vaccinated, go to your doctor and get a vaccine.

20:20

Anyway, our hero responds,

20:20

we live in a society and

20:23

vaccines protect people have

20:23

weak immune systems. And HE

20:27

responds with, he could show our

20:27

hero ways that Mother Nature

20:33

could boost the immune system

20:33

and core system overall

20:36

What is a core system I

20:36

mean, like your core mu, okay,

20:39

I'm not gonna do that in argument,

20:40

I'm just gonna ignore that

20:40

part. For now. They have shown

20:43

in that response that they care

20:43

about our hero. If our hero

20:47

keeps pushing on that personal

20:47

connection, it's possible that

20:50

connection will turn. And they

20:50

will turn fully against our

20:54

hero. Because the idea that they

20:54

don't have the logos solutions,

21:00

and they're just relying on

21:00

subjective opinions and aren't

21:02

actually informed is more

21:02

painful than that friendship

21:06

that our hero is leaning on. So

21:06

I'm stating that our hero has a

21:11

way in through the friendship.

21:11

But if they lean on that

21:14

friendship too hard as the only

21:14

way in, they could get that

21:18

bridge burned way more quickly

21:18

than they're expecting, or the

21:22

bridge you used to get in can

21:22

always be the one that's burned

21:24

on the way out. If you're gonna

21:24

go up against somebody who

21:27

thinks they're arguing

21:27

logically, they're going to try

21:30

to get very personal quickly if

21:30

they're wrong and burn bridges.

21:33

Because often people who are

21:33

throwing a bunch of very bad

21:37

logic at you are super invested

21:37

in that logic being true,

21:41

because they've shown that they

21:41

like logic, but not that much.

21:46

Yeah.

21:46

And that actually takes a

21:46

lot of personal subjective

21:49

investment in bad reasoning.

21:49

reasoning is hard.

21:53

reasoning is hard.

21:54

If it was easy, we would

21:54

not be doing this podcast.

21:56

If it was easy. Can you

21:56

imagine how different the world

21:59

would be?

22:00

It'd be awesome.

22:01

Would it? I don't know.

22:01

I don't know. It might be

22:04

better. It might be better. I

22:04

don't know.

22:07

I think it would be

22:07

better. I suppose. I'm going to

22:10

think it would be better though.

22:10

I'm slightly biased.

22:12

I'm erring on the side

22:12

of like, whimsy here. Okay.

22:15

Like, what is the thing when you

22:15

you can't have both? Like,

22:18

either you have whimsy or you

22:18

have like rationale. And I'm

22:20

like,

22:21

Straw Vulcan. That's the

22:21

Straw Vulcan premise.

22:25

Okay, yeah. Hmm. For

22:25

sure. I don't know that term.

22:28

But we'll go with it. It sounds

22:28

legit. And I can imagine what it

22:30

would be.

22:31

It's Spock,

22:33

like a straw man, but a Vulcan?

22:35

Yes.

22:36

Keep going.

22:36

There's nothing inherently

22:36

and whimsical about logic.

22:39

Anyway. Ideally, when you're

22:39

conversing with someone who is

22:43

using logical arguments, the

22:43

bridge you want to use to get in

22:47

is one of their logical

22:47

arguments. Because then if they

22:50

burn it down on the way out,

22:50

you've already done something

22:53

positive.

22:55

Okay. So which is the

22:55

bridge that you want to go in

23:00

on?

23:01

Oh, which one would I go in on?

23:03

Yeah.

23:04

Oh, I would totally go in

23:04

on if we don't act like adults,

23:06

we will be controlled like children.

23:08

I think I would go in

23:08

on you get a vaccine to prevent

23:11

a virus in you.

23:13

Oh, okay. Yeah.

23:14

Okay. So you first

23:15

Well, I was mostly

23:15

sticking to the first paragraph,

23:18

because that's when our hero

23:18

responded to the first paragraph

23:21

with sort of that bridge to conversation.

23:23

Okay,

23:23

But you're right, we can

23:23

also use stuff in the second

23:25

paragraph. So in the first

23:25

paragraph we have, we have the

23:30

means to get healthy on our own.

23:30

We don't need the government's

23:34

forcing us to take vaccines and

23:34

pharmaceutical drugs, take

23:38

personal responsibility for your

23:38

health and lifestyle choices. If

23:41

we don't exercise our liberties,

23:41

they will be taken away from us.

23:46

If we don't act like adults, we

23:46

will be controlled like

23:48

children, and people shouldn't

23:48

buy into the media is fear

23:51

mongering. These are actually

23:51

all pretty good bridges for you

23:56

to logically get in or ethically

23:56

get in, instead of using the

24:01

personal connection to get in.

24:01

And like I said, there's nothing

24:03

wrong with using the personal

24:03

connection to get in. But if

24:07

you're going to get a bridge

24:07

burned on the way out, you want

24:10

it to be one of their bridges,

24:10

not your bridge I dunno how many

24:14

bridges you have. And like I

24:14

said, the one I would probably

24:17

start with is if we don't act

24:17

like adults, we will be

24:20

controlled like children,

24:20

because it's such a good ethos,

24:25

pathos and logos question. And I

24:25

like that kind of duality. So

24:31

the reason I like that one is

24:31

because it implies that they

24:36

think that they're making a

24:36

maturity argument. And it's sort

24:40

of this fear of government

24:40

paternalism concept that I am a

24:45

person who knows how to live my

24:45

life. And if someone else tells

24:49

me how to live my life, I feel

24:49

like I'm being turned into a

24:52

child. This is a good

24:52

opportunity to talk with because

24:57

it allows you to build them up

24:57

in the conversation. By making

25:01

them feel like they're mature,

25:02

just to break them down.

25:04

Yeah, and then just cut

25:04

them off at the knees. Take your

25:08

trusty surgical sledgehammer.

25:08

It's been sterilized right

25:12

across the kneecaps, wash your

25:12

hands, don't touch your face,

25:15

don't touch your hand,

25:16

because you can tag a lot

25:16

of their their arguments onto

25:19

it. So it makes for a good

25:19

starting point to build on. And

25:23

it shows what their actual

25:23

concern is, the rest of their

25:26

concerns are just fluff around

25:26

this piece of the argument, they

25:30

are afraid of being treated like

25:30

a child, likely because they

25:32

don't respect children. So they

25:32

are afraid of being

25:36

disrespected. That's a bit of

25:36

armchair psychology, there's a

25:39

lot of reasons they can be

25:39

afraid of being treated like a

25:41

child. But if we don't act like

25:41

adults, we will be controlled,

25:45

like children is very telling in

25:45

the middle of all of these other

25:50

What are essentially fluff

25:50

arguments, like, to me, they all

25:54

tie in to that one. So that's

25:54

where I would start. Because if

25:57

somebody is making an argument

25:57

at you, and they show what

26:00

they're most concerned about, I

26:00

think that is the best point to

26:03

start the discussion at.

26:05

Okay.

26:05

But Chicory, you don't

26:05

tend to view discussions that

26:09

way. And you want to start at a different point,

26:11

I wanted to start with

26:11

the first paragraph where he

26:13

says, I, for one do not want to

26:13

take a vaccine when I don't need

26:18

it. which, to me, like that's

26:18

the most factually wrong one.

26:23

Insofar that that's like, not

26:23

really why you take vaccines,

26:28

like you take a vaccine

26:28

sometimes for yourself, but most

26:31

of the time for other people.

26:31

And so that's where I would

26:35

start is that it's the most, or

26:35

maybe it's the easiest one to be

26:39

like, maybe there's some kind of

26:39

misunderstanding here.

26:43

That's a good starting

26:43

point, actually, if the

26:45

arguments you want to make are

26:45

about the responsibilities you

26:48

have living in a society, that's

26:48

an excellent point. And there's

26:50

a lot of good logical tags,

26:50

including one you just brought

26:52

up. You don't take vaccines

26:52

because you're sick, you take

26:56

vaccines, knowing you might

26:56

actually get a little sick, you

27:00

take vaccines, because the risk

27:00

of a lot of people getting sick,

27:04

is much larger than the chance

27:04

of any one person getting a

27:06

little sick,

27:07

or really sick. I don't

27:07

know, I had to take the rabies

27:11

vaccination when I was a kid,

27:11

because I am overly fond of

27:15

animals. And when you're

27:15

traveling and there was a rabid

27:18

cat and I was playing with all

27:18

these kittens on this, it

27:20

doesn't matter. I had to take the vaccine.

27:22

Look, your heart, your

27:22

heart is not the part you're

27:26

missing in some situations.

27:30

Anyway, so I had to get

27:30

the vaccine for rabies. rabies

27:34

is you must take it or you will

27:34

die. You take it like

27:38

beforehand. It's like not in

27:38

your system for a very long

27:41

time. And the rate of carrying

27:41

rabies is like not a very long

27:47

one. Like it doesn't spread very

27:47

easily. So that's my personal

27:51

example of like, why sometimes

27:51

you have to use broader

27:55

definitions and thoughts with

27:55

with vaccines and an interesting

27:58

segue into my childhood.

28:00

Well, but what I would say

28:00

is that getting sick from the

28:03

rabies vaccine, as opposed to

28:03

getting dead from rabies is

28:06

still a little sick

28:06

comparatively.

28:09

Yeah, I didn't get sick at all. That was the other point. I didn't get sick at all.

28:11

It just hurt a lot.

28:14

Yeah, the rabies vaccine

28:14

sucks. So there's just a

28:17

fundamental misunderstanding

28:17

here of why people take

28:19

vaccines. A lot of the problem

28:19

with this whole paragraph is

28:23

that it's so selfish.

28:24

Yeah,

28:25

this person has no concern

28:25

for other people. Like, I don't

28:29

know, if they have concern for other people in other parts of their life, I only get to see

28:31

this snapshot of them from

28:34

Facebook as the opponent to our

28:34

hero. But like, the way they

28:39

talk, is it's not just fear

28:39

based. There is a lot of the use

28:44

of the word "we" with no

28:44

acknowledgement that everything

28:48

they're saying is incredibly

28:48

selfish. It's like if you throw

28:51

"we" in a paragraph enough, it

28:51

definitely means you're not

28:54

being selfish. But they're

28:54

definitely being selfish.

28:58

I want to point out

28:58

really quickly that the first

29:02

point in their paragraph, we

29:02

sort of broke it down. The

29:04

number one point is take

29:04

personal responsibility for your

29:07

health and lifestyle choices,

29:07

which sometimes when you are

29:12

doing that, you still get

29:12

compromised.

29:16

Yes.

29:16

It was the hardest

29:16

thing for me to imagine when I

29:20

was young.

29:21

Yeah. Well, that's one of those

29:22

statements that when I hear it,

29:24

I immediately know that this is

29:24

a person not taking personal

29:27

responsibility for their health

29:27

and lifestyle choices.

29:29

You think so I don't know.

29:31

If you are running around

29:31

screaming that other people need

29:35

to take responsibility for their

29:35

health and lifestyle choices. I

29:38

have yet to run into somebody

29:38

who starts from that point. That

29:42

is taking actual responsibility

29:42

for their health and lifestyle

29:46

choices and not running from bad

29:46

ideas. I'm not saying it's

29:52

impossible. anyone listening

29:52

could know somebody who is like

29:58

totally immaculate. And they

29:58

tell that to other people in the

30:02

people like I know, Jerry, just

30:02

because you're perfect doesn't

30:06

mean we can all be.

30:07

I think that that's

30:07

like, really what it is, is that

30:09

like, you have to be unwilling

30:09

to imagine that people could be

30:18

doing the best with what they

30:18

have, and still not be able

30:23

bodied, for whatever reason.

30:25

Yeah, I think we have

30:25

transferred into how do you not

30:30

be this person? Which is really

30:30

good. not technically what our

30:33

podcast is about, but I'm not against.

30:35

Yeah, our dad is why

30:35

dad is wrong, not how not to be

30:38

the dad.

30:40

Wow, that's an important

30:40

distinction for our show.

30:42

Actually,

30:43

we do both a lot. I

30:43

mean, like, we really talked

30:46

about how not to be the dad. And

30:46

then like, whether or not I'm

30:49

the dad and a lot. But yeah,

30:49

that's the distinction of our

30:53

show. So

30:54

I am praising you for an

30:54

excellent distinction that our

30:56

show is how to tell dad he's

30:56

wrong, not how not to be the

31:00

dad. That is the hard slash in

31:00

our show.

31:07

But yeah, the first

31:07

thing that they say is take

31:09

personal responsibility for your

31:09

health and lifestyle choices. So

31:12

but sometimes you you take, I'm

31:12

taking the most I can to, like

31:18

live my life the way I want to,

31:18

and it made me immune

31:23

compromised.

31:24

Well, this person does not

31:24

define what personal

31:27

responsibility is, outside of I

31:27

know, magic ways to stay

31:31

healthy. It's very easy to say

31:31

take personal responsibility for

31:35

your health, when you have put

31:35

no effort into understanding

31:38

what other people are going through, which is what the rest of this paragraph says. It's

31:40

essentially everyone should take

31:43

personal responsibility for

31:43

their health. I have done no

31:47

looking into whether other

31:47

people are doing this, but they

31:49

should also take responsible for

31:49

their lifestyle choices, which I

31:52

am not doing. So that's why I

31:52

would not start discussing with

31:55

him there.

31:56

Okay. That's why

31:56

neither of us did. Neither one

31:58

of us actually started with

31:58

point one, which is the most

32:01

selfish point.

32:02

Sure, but what I'm saying

32:02

is that if you know this person,

32:04

and they're actually really good

32:04

at taking personal

32:06

responsibility in other areas of

32:06

their life, and are very good at

32:11

like, making compassionate

32:11

lifestyle choices, this might be

32:14

a good in for you, if you're

32:14

using stuff you've learned from

32:17

our other episodes, because like

32:17

I said, if they get angry at you

32:21

and chase you out and burn the

32:21

bridge you came in on, they will

32:24

be burning this idea they have

32:24

that they are good at personal

32:27

responsibility and lifestyle

32:27

choices. And that might be what

32:31

you want.

32:31

Who knows,

32:32

if we don't exercise our liberties and sovereignty, they'll be taken from us. I

32:33

don't know what USA they're

32:36

living in right now. I'm just

32:36

gonna skip over that one.

32:40

I just want to point

32:40

out that like, most people don't

32:42

exercise their liberties and

32:42

sovereignty, and it has been

32:45

taken from us, which maybe is

32:45

Zero's point. But also things

32:50

have gotten so much like worse,

32:50

because they basically made it

32:52

so that we can't protest because

32:52

everyone is quarantined. And

32:56

then they're like, by the way,

32:56

we're gonna like make it illegal

32:59

to get abortions. By the way,

32:59

we're gonna like, take away

33:01

tribe rights. By the way, we're

33:01

going to lift a bunch of the EPA

33:03

rules.

33:04

Yes.

33:04

Which are all good

33:04

things to like Riot over. And

33:07

everybody's like, I fucking

33:07

can't go protest and be angry.

33:10

Yep. Because the state

33:10

cops will then get you. I mean,

33:14

you are 100% correct. That is

33:14

what I was saying. And good,

33:17

good on you bringing examples. I

33:17

also wanted to point out

33:20

vaccines are a Liberty, they're

33:20

not actually that old in the

33:23

history of mankind, and diseases

33:23

used to wipe out large chunks of

33:27

humanity a lot. To be able to

33:27

take a vaccine is a form of

33:31

freedom. It is a type of liberty

33:31

to be able to say, I can take

33:35

this vaccine and I am

33:35

significantly less likely to get

33:39

a disease that kills people is

33:39

incredibly powerful. It is a

33:43

form of liberty and sovereignty

33:43

over your own body that people

33:46

do not take advantage of

33:48

Zero. Do you think that

33:48

it also counts as like a

33:50

privilege, though, that you have

33:50

that choice?

33:53

Yes, most liberties are

33:53

privileges, just for clarity. If

33:57

you are calling a thing of

33:57

liberty, which you are talking

33:59

about as a privilege, there's

33:59

not actually a huge distinction

34:02

between the two.

34:03

Okay, that's

34:03

interesting. I have them placed

34:05

in very different places in my

34:05

brain. So that's interesting.

34:08

Okay,

34:08

Just out of curiosity,

34:08

while we go on our patented

34:11

tangent for a bit. What do you

34:11

think is the difference between

34:13

the two

34:14

between?

34:15

a liberty and a privilege?

34:17

A liberty,

34:18

I'm not asking for right

34:18

wrong. I'm totally just down for

34:21

like a subjective gut feeling on this.

34:23

I guess I would have

34:23

thought of it as more like

34:27

things on like the, I don't know

34:27

if it would be on like the Bill

34:29

of Rights, but like, the liberty

34:29

to like have or not have like

34:35

religion, to be able to like

34:35

assemble with the people that

34:37

you want to be able to, like,

34:37

dress the way you want to. And

34:42

then I would have put this under

34:42

a health care privilege. But

34:46

then there's this huge fight or

34:46

wanting to redefine this so that

34:51

you can say that, having potable

34:51

water, having healthcare are

34:56

like human rights, which is like

34:56

its own wholly different thing,

35:02

which are also like, if you have

35:02

those things you are privileged

35:06

over those that don't have it.

35:06

So I think that those are the

35:09

three that I'm like kind of conflating in my brain?

35:11

Well, I think you should

35:11

conflate them, particularly as

35:14

someone who has a post

35:14

scarcityist. But I was

35:17

interested because you said you

35:17

store them in different parts of

35:20

your brain. And it sounds like

35:20

you link the phrase Liberty as a

35:23

loaded phrase that is linked to

35:23

things the government allegedly,

35:27

and society,

35:28

well, those two things are

35:28

not distinct. But sure, the

35:31

things that government or

35:31

society says you should be

35:34

allowed to have, whereas

35:34

privileges are things you just

35:36

have.

35:37

Yeah, I guess that would be

35:38

interesting. I mean, I

35:38

don't really see the distinction

35:41

between privilege privileges are

35:41

granted to you by society,

35:45

liberties are granted to you by

35:45

society, there's not really a

35:47

huge distinction between the

35:47

two. In any practical way. There

35:52

are some minor definitional

35:52

distinctions but like, a liberty

35:57

and a privilege are essentially

35:57

the same thing, especially in

36:01

non lawful societies like ours,

36:01

where they're not enforced

36:04

equally.

36:05

Yeah,

36:05

like there are plenty of people in this country who don't have the right to wear what they

36:07

want, or go where they want and

36:11

who will get judged on just

36:11

random crap, for no good reason.

36:17

And like, we do have a lot of

36:17

liberties compared to the rest

36:21

of the world. Human rights to me

36:21

are not privileges or liberties.

36:26

Because to not let a person have

36:26

them is to say I am okay with

36:29

that person dying. A privilege

36:29

is a thing that you don't

36:33

strictly need to live, although

36:33

your quality of life may change.

36:38

Whereas a human right is a thing

36:38

you will die very rapidly

36:43

without and defining the

36:43

distinction between those two is

36:46

part of defining what a post

36:46

scarcity society is. Because you

36:50

really need to know what that

36:50

lowest level of like, food,

36:55

water shelter community are

36:55

like, these are real questions

37:00

on how granular Do you have to

37:00

get on those before humans can

37:07

no longer live in a way we

37:07

consider to be human? It's a

37:12

difficult thing. It's one of the

37:12

reasons why I often say we need

37:16

better economic and social

37:16

models than ones invented by

37:19

dead whites dudes 200 years ago.

37:19

A lot of communists and

37:23

socialists out there are very

37:23

uproarious about that, statement

37:26

for some reason, but so are a

37:26

lot of capitalists. So whatever.

37:30

So I looked it up I

37:30

looked at we were talking about

37:32

liberty and privilege, right.

37:33

Liberty versus privilege. Yes.

37:35

Okay. So the definition

37:35

it just typing it into Google?

37:38

Which fair?

37:41

Nope, go for it.

37:41

1. The state of being

37:41

free within society from

37:44

oppressive restrictions imposed

37:44

by authority on one's way of

37:47

life behavior or political views

37:47

2. the power or scope to act as

37:51

one pleases. Okay. And then it

37:51

says privilege, a special right

37:55

advantage or immunity granted or

37:55

available only to a particular

37:59

person or group.

38:00

Yeah, I mean, these are

38:00

essentially synonyms. As long

38:04

as you define the person

38:04

granting the right or advantage

38:09

as the state,

38:10

I can see where, like

38:10

where you're coming from with

38:12

that statement, but it's just

38:12

hard for me to parse them

38:16

together myself, but I see where

38:16

you're coming from.

38:19

Okay, that's fine. We're

38:19

slightly off topic. So let's

38:21

de-tangent.

38:23

It's your fault.

38:24

And let's try to actually

38:24

answer the question. Our hero

38:30

asked I, I take full

38:30

responsibility for this tangent.

38:35

I don't know why Chi thought I

38:35

wouldn't. But as as they are

38:39

objecting, yes I put us on that

38:39

tangent. And now I am bringing

38:44

us back for

38:45

forcible I will do it.

38:45

I'm just saying that usually the

38:47

tangents are my fault. Because I

38:47

have a story that I want to tell

38:51

or some other fucking detail.

38:51

And this time it wasn't me it

38:55

was you asking a question?

38:57

Oh, I don't know. I'd say

38:57

we're probably pretty close to

38:59

50/50. But, Okay, there you go.

38:59

So what's the best way forward

39:04

and how to jump in. If you

39:04

believe this person is

39:06

invincible, we think you should

39:06

jump in on points three, or

39:09

four, which was if we don't act

39:09

like adults, we will be

39:11

controlled like children. Or I,

39:11

for one do not want to take a

39:15

vaccine when I don't need it

39:15

forced to take a vaccine when I

39:18

don't need it. We seem to agree

39:18

generally on the reason that

39:21

they show what this person's

39:21

actual concern is. I think this

39:25

person is worried about being

39:25

treated like a child and

39:27

patronized a bit Chi do you want

39:27

to explain why you thought four

39:31

was just real quick.

39:32

Honestly, it was

39:32

something that like I related to

39:34

more and something that like, I

39:34

felt like I could take on more

39:40

because I'm very interested to

39:40

see how you're going to think

39:42

about number three, and like

39:42

regarding that because I just

39:46

don't know how I would dig into

39:46

that one. digging into like,

39:50

just the facts, in my mind is a

39:50

lot simpler.

39:54

That makes sense. And

39:54

let's start there as the point

39:56

when you are discussing with

39:56

someone who is making very

40:01

selfish statements, it's good to

40:01

start from the point that you

40:05

feel you have in common with

40:05

their selfishness, because that

40:08

will create a lot of that sort

40:08

of discussion feeling to begin

40:12

with. This is not always

40:12

possible. Some people have a

40:16

harder time meeting selfishness

40:16

in the middle than others. But

40:20

if you can empathize with their

40:20

selfishness, it is actually an

40:23

in, that you can then broaden

40:23

out. And maybe it's not so bad

40:27

of a bridge to burn, if they if

40:27

they kick you out, we'll get to

40:30

that a bit more, because in that

40:30

one, since Chi empathizes with

40:33

it, we can actually have more of

40:33

a back and forth. But if we

40:36

don't act like adults will be

40:36

controlled like children, I like

40:39

as a starting point. Because the

40:39

other four points all connect to

40:45

it. Like if you're worried about

40:45

being treated like a child,

40:48

you're gonna be over there

40:48

pushing everyone else to take

40:50

personal responsibility. Because

40:50

you're you're kind of hiding the

40:54

places where you're not. Because

40:54

if people see those, you're

40:58

going to be worried they'll

40:58

treat you like a child. Like if

41:00

you talk to everyone about how

41:00

you keep a very strict diet, but

41:03

you cheat on it all the time,

41:03

you're probably feeling self

41:06

conscious about that, I don't know that this person is doing this. Again, if we don't

41:08

exercise our liberties, and

41:11

sovereignity they'll be taken

41:11

from us, which is what adults do

41:15

to children all the time. Adults

41:15

are really bad about taking

41:19

sovereignity from children,

41:19

often children who are smart

41:23

enough to like, at least explain

41:23

why this would be a bad idea.

41:28

Even if they're not always

41:28

right. Children are often more

41:31

intelligent and precocious than

41:31

adults give them credit for

41:34

I'm going to jump in

41:34

here and say depends on the age,

41:36

but for sure,

41:37

I would say at any age.

41:37

That's why I said often more

41:39

intelligent because it is a

41:39

sliding scale. It's sort of like

41:42

that distinction we're talking

41:42

about with wisdom versus

41:44

intelligence, it's very hard for

41:44

a child to have a high wisdom

41:49

score. And sometimes it's hard

41:49

for a child to have a high

41:52

intelligence score. But neither

41:52

of those are particularly

41:57

impossible. And often what we

41:57

mistake for a person having low

42:01

and both is just a person having

42:01

a normal in one. And that's

42:05

preventing them from expressing

42:05

the

42:08

that can definitely be

42:08

true, I will say that maybe I'm

42:10

thinking more of like infants,

42:10

like someone who is like two or

42:14

lower.

42:15

Alright, I will caveat

42:15

what I said with the child must

42:19

be able to communicate in a

42:19

reasonably consistent level. But

42:24

I'm not going to define what

42:24

that means. Because I would like

42:27

people to define that

42:27

themselves. Because sometimes

42:30

people don't pay enough

42:30

attention to the ways children

42:32

are communicating

42:33

that fair,

42:33

but toddlers and stuff I

42:33

will give you are very hard to

42:37

communicate with. And even if

42:37

what I say about adults is true,

42:40

it's very hard to tell if you're

42:40

doing it wrong. For all I know,

42:44

adults are patronizing their

42:44

toddlers all the time, I would

42:47

have no way to show that if we

42:47

don't act like adults will be

42:51

controlled like children. Taking

42:51

your vaccine is acting like an

42:54

adult, not taking your vaccine

42:54

is not being mature. That

42:59

statement shows a fundamental

42:59

misunderstanding of what

43:01

vaccines are for, and a

43:01

fundamental misunderstanding of

43:04

why we exist in a society it's

43:04

to take care of the most people

43:09

with the general understanding

43:09

that if you are taking care of

43:11

the most people, the most people

43:11

are taking care of you. And a

43:15

lot of folks want to single out

43:15

individual cases of people who

43:18

are bad actors. This is

43:18

something I push back against at

43:21

work all the time. If you go

43:21

into the assumption that most

43:24

people are bad, you then have a

43:24

logical responsibility to

43:29

explain why society has not

43:29

crumbled. Honestly, in the

43:33

current situation we're in where

43:33

leadership in this country is

43:38

undeniably awful. There's sort

43:38

of a logical extrapolation that

43:42

most of people in society are

43:42

actually way better than you

43:45

think. Because they are holding

43:45

things together by the skin of

43:48

their teeth, as the people in

43:48

charge desperately try to tear

43:51

it down.

43:52

Fun fact, and I fact

43:52

checked this, but

43:55

hold on.

43:55

Sorry,

43:56

Is this is fact actually going to be fun.

43:57

No,

43:57

Cuz now I'm suspicious

43:58

no, it's not. It's not

43:58

fun. If I start something fun.

44:01

okay, carry on

44:01

It's never going to

44:01

actually maybe once one in 10.

44:05

Maybe

44:06

all right,

44:06

there's a chance

44:07

carry on.

44:08

If I went somewhere

44:08

like octopuses, blah, blah,

44:11

blah. That would be a fun fact.

44:11

It's not where I'm going. Fun

44:13

fact, one of the head People in

44:13

the World Health Organization

44:18

praised

44:19

who

44:19

the World Health word

44:19

could Oh, you fucking got me.

44:27

That's low Zero.

44:28

podcast over. Victory

44:28

declared.

44:33

Okay, I'm going

44:33

forward. One of the people in

44:36

WHO praised Donald Trump's

44:36

recent reaction to the pandemic.

44:44

And it was pointed out to me

44:44

immediately and I immediately

44:47

tried to fact check it and like,

44:47

see if it was not real, and

44:52

it's, I will give it like 70%

44:52

real, more than half which makes

44:59

me frustrated. Because by and

44:59

large, I would really agree with

45:02

you that like, this didn't have

45:02

to get so bad. And it's really

45:05

shitty. There's a lot of really

45:05

shitty things that are

45:07

happening.

45:08

I don't know if I've said this on air yet,

45:09

okay,

45:10

but I'm gonna say it on

45:10

air this time, a broken clock is

45:13

right twice a day. And you still

45:13

need to throw it out and get a

45:16

working clock. It's broken, you

45:16

know that. I know that. Throw it

45:21

away, get it out of your house,

45:21

you don't need it twice a day,

45:25

you don't even know when those

45:25

are actually right. Because you

45:28

don't have a working clock.

45:29

Well, you can have

45:29

other working clocks like around

45:31

or I actually have a broken

45:31

clock in my house that I

45:34

inherited.

45:35

If you have other working

45:35

clocks, just use those. Throw

45:38

the other one out.

45:40

I do. But then I look

45:40

at the broken one. And I'm like,

45:42

Wow, that's really neat looking.

45:44

We make these metaphors together. I'm proposing that also as a T

45:51

shirt idea. Hot Off the metaphor

45:57

factory. Ornamental positions

45:57

only for broken clocks. Let's

46:01

amend to that.

46:02

I would agree with

46:02

that. That's what this one is.

46:05

It just hangs on. I also have

46:05

like one of the old school

46:07

phones. That's fucking doesn't

46:07

even plugged in and doesn't even

46:10

work at all. How would I even

46:10

make it work? I couldn't. But it

46:13

looks cool. I'm hanging on my

46:13

wall ornamental shit, you know.

46:17

I'd ask if you're a hoarder. But I already know you and your husband.

46:21

I sometimes go through

46:21

and throw a bunch stuff away. I

46:25

will say, we both have the

46:25

hearts of hoarders. My husband

46:29

relates a lot with raccoons, in

46:29

so far that he likes Taco Bell,

46:34

and has a hard time getting rid

46:34

of things. But he also washes

46:39

his hands. You don't want

46:39

raccoons? Do they wash their

46:41

hands?

46:42

Alright, so point 5.

46:42

people shouldn't buy into the

46:45

media is fear mongering, you

46:45

know what part of being a mature

46:48

adult is the ability to fact

46:48

check things and tell when a

46:51

thing is fearmongering versus

46:51

when a thing is good advice. If

46:55

you are a person who just

46:55

assumes that media is always

46:57

lying, you're not acting

46:57

particularly mature, I

47:01

understand that it takes a lot

47:01

of energy to fact check things,

47:04

I understand that extremely

47:04

well. And you don't always have

47:06

time to fact check things. If

47:06

that's the case, you need to

47:10

curate your media feed so that

47:10

there are sources you trust,

47:14

even if they are sometimes

47:14

wrong, and understand what

47:18

percentage of time they get it

47:18

wrong. And just be cool with

47:20

that.

47:20

Well,

47:21

if you like listening to

47:21

CNN, and you know that CNN is

47:25

about a 70%, you're just living

47:25

your life knowing that. And

47:30

sometimes you're right, CNN is

47:30

going to be fear mongering, they

47:33

got a 24 hour news cycle to

47:33

fill. They're going to be fear

47:36

mongering. So you will also be

47:36

fear mongering, that's actually

47:40

Okay, you made an educated

47:40

judgment, sometimes you'll be

47:44

wrong, adapt to being wrong as

47:44

quick as you can. And if you're

47:47

going to be going around telling people not to buy into the medias fear mongering, you

47:49

should be doing the fact checks

47:52

and not spewing unreliable

47:52

information. And so that's why I

47:56

would start at three because I

47:56

think three pings to the other

47:58

ones really well, because it's,

47:58

to me a very big reveal of their

48:02

core self. So you're discussing

48:02

pathos from their perspective,

48:06

and then tying ethos and logos

48:06

into it.

48:09

I want to chime in on five really fast, which is one of the things that is the most

48:11

frustrating for me, because I

48:16

have not a great, I definitely

48:16

am not online, I think as much

48:20

as like Zero is so like I and

48:20

when I am online, it's on things

48:25

that are looking at photos, or

48:25

things like that, that are not

48:28

news based or even necessarily

48:28

information based. They're

48:32

aesthetic based, or like

48:32

whatever, fuck you I want to

48:34

look at Funny Cartoons.

48:36

No, no, I'm just thinking

48:36

I am not online as much as Zero

48:38

is is the lowest of low bars to

48:38

achieve on this planet. I'm

48:44

pretty sure there are self

48:44

learning AI who spend less time

48:47

online than I do.

48:48

Geez. Well, no, you do

48:48

some stuff offline you like,

48:52

have offline or you used to have

48:52

offline classes and have ride

48:57

buses. And I guess you could

48:57

look on the internet on the bus.

48:59

I don't know what the point I'm making.

49:01

I spent most of my bus ride time doing Duolingo. I

49:03

it does. I mean, like, you know what I mean? I'm trying to say that like, taking in the

49:05

newsfeed taking in world

49:11

happenings in history as it's

49:11

being made. I'm not hugely up on

49:17

that. I mean, sometimes where

49:17

I'm on this thing, but a lot of

49:21

times it's like reading one or

49:21

two things a day and then being

49:24

interested in what other people

49:24

are posting on the book faces

49:28

and the tweets.

49:29

Yeah, I would say you have

49:29

a slightly above average level

49:33

of informational awareness for

49:33

current events. But we talked

49:37

about this a lot. A few years

49:37

ago, on our other now defunct

49:41

podcast, you're not going to

49:41

know what's happening in Europe

49:44

most of the time, unless it's

49:44

really funny or feel bad. Yeah,

49:48

we're really bad. But you'll

49:48

have a decent idea of what is

49:51

going on here. Even if it is

49:51

disturbing, and you kind of wish

49:54

you didn't

49:54

Yeah, and so like

49:54

that's the other side of this is

49:57

that I try really hard when I do

49:57

fact check something that I go

50:03

to like two or more places to

50:03

really look at this. And I try

50:09

to like look at like a study, or

50:09

try to get to the most ground

50:14

without somebody else digesting

50:14

the information for me, what

50:18

information can I gain?

50:20

You try to get as close to the source as possible.

50:22

Yeah. And so it just

50:22

takes more time. And so like, I

50:26

just have to be way more choosy

50:26

about what I look up and like

50:31

how much time I spend in each one

50:33

Yeah 100% Agree.

50:34

So that's where I was going with the buy into the medias fearmongering is I just

50:36

feel like and this is also sort

50:39

of the thing with the Behind the

50:39

Curve people that just because

50:44

someone claims to be an expert,

50:44

like, you can look at why

50:47

they're claiming to be an

50:47

expert. But if they have like a

50:51

PhD as a doctor, don't just

50:51

write them off, because they are

50:55

an expert. And that's something

50:55

that like, I can't I don't know

50:57

how to argue against that.

50:57

That's like, well, but like NASA

51:01

said this, and so like, I'm not

51:01

gonna believe it just because of

51:04

the source of it. And I'm like,

51:04

but NASA?

51:06

Have we done an episode on

51:06

anti expertise?

51:09

No,

51:09

we should do an episode on that at some point, sorry, carry on.

51:12

No dad is going to

51:12

bring up just anti expertise.

51:15

They bring it up like this,

51:15

where it's like, don't believe

51:18

the media well, but the media

51:18

has a lot of faults, but a lot

51:22

of times that they're quoting

51:22

the CDC, and then you can't just

51:27

or maybe you you can, but should

51:27

you

51:30

Fine Chicory

51:31

Should you just not

51:31

believe the CDC? I mean, I think

51:37

of them as like a good source.

51:40

You're right, we should do

51:40

multi episodes on anti expert

51:44

ism based on your real life

51:44

experiences.

51:47

Zero, not

51:47

get them ready, get them ready,

51:49

not where I was going

51:49

with this, but also not how not,

51:53

in my experience, how dads

51:53

operate, they always go like

51:55

this, where there's like, five

51:55

things that you have to like

51:58

individually fucking break down,

51:58

that they're gonna like, or

52:02

they're gonna move goalposts and

52:02

add 6, 7, 8 you know what I

52:05

mean?

52:06

It's called content, we

52:06

can go over those arguments one

52:08

at a time. And if they're all

52:08

anti expertise, arguments, I'll

52:11

just refer to the first one. But

52:11

we were going to talk a bit

52:13

about four before we wrapped up.

52:16

Okay. Sure,

52:18

be our hero, be not the

52:18

dad.

52:22

So hard. So I guess

52:22

like, for one thing, it's so

52:27

hard to convince people

52:27

sometimes to do these things a

52:32

long time ago, and the study

52:32

from Africa in the 70s. So you

52:37

couldn't do it today. But they

52:37

took a group of 100 children,

52:41

and they gave 50 of them the

52:41

measles, mumps and rubella

52:45

vaccine, and they did not with

52:45

the other 50, and with the 50

52:49

group that they did not give

52:49

them the vaccine, four died. And

52:54

so I'm heralding back to some of

52:54

the previous conversations that

52:58

I've had not just with this one,

52:58

let me make that clear. This is

53:00

not just referencing this, this

53:00

is talking about The Dad who is

53:04

anti Vax,

53:06

the ur-dad got it

53:07

often says, like, more

53:07

people that get the vaccine end

53:13

up sick than those that don't,

53:13

or, like you can fight it off on

53:17

your own or blah, blah, blah,

53:17

like this is something that is

53:22

very chilling, because it's

53:22

children. And it's very tragic

53:27

that this happened. But it

53:27

really is sort of looks at like

53:31

something that you can really

53:31

relate to. And I was reading

53:35

some other things, how that math

53:35

works in people's heads, they

53:39

can see they can go to one of

53:39

the sources that they trust, and

53:42

see that like, there was like a

53:42

measles outbreak, and more kids

53:47

got the measles had a bad time

53:47

with it than those that did not

53:51

have the vaccine. But the way

53:51

that that works is that like

53:54

most people, and this is sort of

53:54

the difference from the group in

53:57

Africa. Most people in America

53:57

have the vaccine, we all usually

54:04

get the MMR, MRR or whatever,

54:07

MMR, measles, mumps, rubella

54:09

vaccine, and we're kids

54:09

and often get them boosted as we

54:12

grow up.

54:13

Yeah, I think you have to

54:13

get it three times. Now,

54:16

I think something like that

54:17

you have to get the shot

54:17

and two boosters before you're

54:19

out of elementary school or something.

54:21

And the point is that

54:21

like the way that vaccines work,

54:26

is it's and this person is maybe

54:26

right that like there are things

54:30

that you can do to help your

54:30

body because your body works as

54:34

a whole entity. So and this is

54:34

something I was thinking about

54:37

earlier today when our producer

54:37

was first giving me this is that

54:42

if you took the vaccine, but for

54:42

whatever reason, you were very

54:48

compromised in your diet or you

54:48

weren't taking you weren't

54:50

getting all of your vitamins and

54:50

minerals. Your body could still

54:54

get sick from the disease

54:54

because your body still has to

55:00

work to make the antigen and the

55:00

T and B cells, which are some of

55:05

the white blood cells. So

55:05

there's macrophages, B

55:08

lymphocytes and T lymphocytes,

55:08

which are pretty common. Like

55:10

you always think about the T

55:10

cells that are like fighting the

55:13

bacteria. That's once the

55:13

disease sort of have gotten into

55:17

your cells. macrophages eat the

55:17

invading germs, and then they

55:22

leave behind antigens, which can

55:22

still cause problems, B

55:25

lymphocytes eat the antigens,

55:25

that are the leftovers from the

55:29

macrophages. So that's sort of

55:29

the three. And so your body has

55:32

to make these things. Like it's

55:32

like any other thing that your

55:35

body makes blood and it makes

55:35

bone cells and it makes all of

55:39

these other other wonderful

55:39

things. It has to have the

55:44

ability to make these things.

55:44

That's also what can go on with

55:48

overactive immune systems, like

55:48

you were talking about before

55:51

that, like those cells can get

55:51

mixed up. I don't want to seem

55:55

mixed up, I'm anthropomorphizing

55:55

them, but they can get mixed up

55:58

and start attacking things that

55:58

they shouldn't. We are

56:00

We are not medical experts

56:00

just assume everything we say is

56:03

a gross over-generalization,

56:03

you're covered, keep going HIPAA

56:05

warning.

56:06

I can just I can hear

56:06

some of my professors and other

56:09

classmates being like you're

56:09

doing this. And I'm like I'm

56:12

trying.

56:13

If you're a listener of

56:13

the show, and you want to draw

56:15

us T cell fan art. We encourage

56:15

you anthropomorphizing anything

56:20

Chicory says really gijinkas

56:20

galore

56:23

as soon as you make it

56:23

super cute, or super handsome,

56:26

like in how bodies work, or

56:26

whatever the anime is on Netflix

56:29

also Cells at Work.

56:31

Cells that work. Please

56:31

send us moe gijinkas of

56:34

everything Chicory says. Carry

56:34

on.

56:37

Anyway, where was I

56:37

going with this? So yeah, you

56:39

have to have all of these sort

56:39

of things. And also, there are

56:43

times when vaccines can fail you

56:43

sort of like big jump, but

56:51

people that are like anti

56:51

abortion that are like, just use

56:54

contraceptives, well, buddy,

56:54

sometimes contraceptives fail.

56:58

And this is sort of the same,

56:58

buddy, like, yes, you can get

57:01

vaccines. But sometimes vaccines

57:01

fail, and sometimes your body

57:05

rejects them, and sometimes you

57:05

are allergic to them. And this

57:09

is one other thing that I was

57:09

talking to one of my friends

57:11

about is that you can have a

57:11

really bad reaction to a

57:14

vaccine. Some children when they

57:14

get the first dose of MMR, you

57:19

know, they break out in hives,

57:19

or they break out in little red

57:22

bumps, because it is it can be I

57:22

think it is one of the

57:27

symptom for measles.

57:28

Yeah, it's

57:29

or the mumps, one of those two,

57:31

it is like your body

57:31

reacting to this thing

57:33

Not a doctor.

57:34

And it's really scary.

57:34

And then the other thing that

57:36

fucking gets me is, and this is

57:36

something that I have an issue

57:40

with doctors is that they can be

57:40

very blase about this. And they

57:43

can be very like, Oh, well, it's

57:43

fucking a normal like reaction

57:46

to it. And you're like, Bitch,

57:46

this is my child, and it's not

57:50

normal for my child. And that's

57:50

something the more holistic

57:54

group sort of gets is that they

57:54

want to say this is not kind not

58:00

looking at the whole body. And

58:00

it's like, you know, when you

58:03

see a doctor about what's going

58:03

on with you, it's very personal.

58:06

But the doctor has seen 100

58:06

people before you in is going to

58:09

go see 100 people after you, and

58:09

they just don't have time and

58:13

energy and you know, everything

58:13

else. You have to fight

58:17

sometimes to get that attention

58:17

in the medical world. You know

58:21

what I'm saying about that?

58:22

Yeah, I totally see where

58:22

you're coming from, to

58:25

summarize, hopefully, in a

58:25

slightly shorter version, and

58:29

let me know if this is a well, I

58:29

just I don't want to summarize

58:32

it wrong. So please correct me

58:32

if I'm oversimplifying what you

58:35

just said, yeah. When you enter

58:35

into the medical system in any

58:40

country, not just the US any

58:40

medical system, a Doctor No

58:45

matter how good their bedside

58:45

manner is judging you based on

58:49

case history and case studies of

58:49

1000s millions whatever sample

58:54

size they're using other people

58:54

who are like you, and some

58:58

people react to this by taking a

58:58

very selfish view of healthcare.

59:02

Because they don't want to just

59:02

be a statistic they see

59:05

themselves as more important

59:06

Yeah I'm sorry, you

59:06

kind of, in a society you kind

59:09

of are and we've kind of talked

59:09

about that before but it just

59:12

kind of is the nature of being

59:12

part of a group of people.

59:16

So I would say in a

59:16

society The important thing is

59:18

to remember that that

59:18

individuality you want for

59:21

yourself, everybody wants for

59:21

themselves. And so when you say

59:26

something like I don't need to

59:26

do this because I'm okay you

59:30

need to understand that you are

59:30

being this you are doing the

59:33

same annoying thing your doctor

59:33

is doing to build off your

59:36

metaphor that's what you're

59:36

doing when you write messages

59:39

like this

59:39

Yes,

59:40

you are doing the exact thing you are annoyed at your doctor for doing of reducing

59:42

everyone but you to a statistic

59:47

that your methods will work on

59:48

closing thought on like

59:48

the how vaccines work sort of

59:51

thing is that

59:52

I don't even know podcast work at this point.

59:55

I'm so sorry. I took

59:55

like a very, a lot of

59:58

information. No I'm sorry. Go on. I actually

59:59

think you're doing great. And I

1:00:03

apparently was too harsh in my joking No, I just I'm sensitive because

1:00:04

I know that it was sort of a

1:00:07

long winded thing, but I happen,

1:00:07

I'm just very

1:00:12

You're doing fine.

1:00:13

I really respect how

1:00:13

much effort has gone into a lot

1:00:18

of this research and power,

1:00:18

like, like you were saying

1:00:22

before power over like our

1:00:22

bodies and being able to help

1:00:25

yourself, that's sort of how

1:00:25

vaccines work is that they

1:00:29

introduce the thing into your

1:00:29

system. And that can it's sort

1:00:32

of like giving your body a

1:00:32

blueprint for a weapon against

1:00:36

the future invasion,

1:00:38

taking a vaccine is taking

1:00:38

agency over an illness you would

1:00:42

catch randomly otherwise, it is

1:00:42

actually the thing you can do

1:00:45

that gives you the most control

1:00:45

over whether or not you get that

1:00:48

illness, it doesn't increase it

1:00:48

to a 0% chance, but it is more

1:00:52

control than random.

1:00:53

The last thing you

1:00:53

would say that like I think a

1:00:55

lot of ur-dads sort of say is

1:00:55

that these can be dangerous,

1:00:59

like they can have adverse

1:00:59

effects. To which I would say

1:01:04

that what is the like it comes

1:01:04

off of bread mold,

1:01:07

penicillin.

1:01:07

Yeah, penicillin. Thank

1:01:07

god dammit, penicillin, my

1:01:11

brother is deadly allergic to

1:01:11

penicillin. And like, they had

1:01:15

to learn that sort of like as he

1:01:15

was an infant, and I'm sure it

1:01:18

was like a really tense moment.

1:01:18

And it's one of those things

1:01:20

that you don't know until it's

1:01:20

going to be kind of a deal. Like

1:01:25

you don't know if you're going

1:01:25

to be allergic to what's in

1:01:27

vaccines. Until you try it. You

1:01:27

don't know if you're going to be

1:01:30

necessarily allergic to

1:01:30

penicillin, as far as I'm aware,

1:01:33

unless you take it at some point

1:01:33

in your life.

1:01:36

Most allergy tests require

1:01:36

you to actually interact with

1:01:39

the things to know.

1:01:41

And like for little

1:01:41

babies like that's sometimes

1:01:43

like it's a risk benefit thing.

1:01:43

But I think that penicillin is

1:01:47

still saved countless, countless

1:01:47

countless lives, even though you

1:01:51

can be deadly allergic to it,

1:01:51

and there are bad things fucking

1:01:56

I don't even want to deal with

1:01:56

that argument of like the, it

1:01:58

has dangerous stuff in it,

1:01:58

bitch, do you know how little of

1:02:02

that stuff is in those? You get

1:02:02

more mercury from like having

1:02:07

tuna, like in a sashimi bar,

1:02:07

then getting a shot. You know

1:02:12

what I mean?

1:02:13

I would also say that if

1:02:13

you are worried about side

1:02:17

effects from the thing, again,

1:02:17

it is still most likely better

1:02:20

than random.

1:02:21

Yeah,

1:02:21

because not getting a

1:02:21

vaccine does not equate to not

1:02:25

getting the illness.

1:02:26

Yeah, and that's another thing is that A. you don't take it for yourself, you

1:02:28

take it for those around you.

1:02:31

Because you don't want to be

1:02:31

able to pass it on to other

1:02:33

people like infants, pregnant

1:02:33

people, elderly people who are

1:02:38

going through shit that you

1:02:38

don't know about. And they don't

1:02:40

have to tell you about all of

1:02:40

those kinds of people. You take

1:02:44

it for your society, you take it

1:02:44

for everyone else. And also, you

1:02:49

have to take it before you get

1:02:49

it. You have to have those, like

1:02:53

I said earlier weapons ready,

1:02:53

before you actually get the

1:02:58

disease.

1:02:59

So how would you use point

1:02:59

number four, as a way to

1:03:02

convince this person? Is that is

1:03:02

that it is that you're you would

1:03:06

talk to them about?

1:03:07

Yes, I just throw facts

1:03:07

at them until they were like,

1:03:10

Okay Okay, I guess I was wrong. I

1:03:10

guess maybe it would be like,

1:03:14

these are the things that like

1:03:14

you're getting wrong is like 1,

1:03:17

nobody's being forced to do it

1:03:19

2. your understanding

1:03:19

of how vaccines work is not

1:03:23

accurate. And 3, mostly those

1:03:23

two, 1, you're wrong about

1:03:27

vaccines and 2, you get it for

1:03:27

other people. And before 3, you

1:03:30

get it before you need it.

1:03:31

So to put it in a slightly

1:03:31

more polite summary, which we

1:03:34

don't need, because I actually think your summary is great. But some people like polite

1:03:36

summaries, you would use a facts

1:03:39

based approach based on what

1:03:39

they had already said. And

1:03:43

believing that as a person who's

1:03:43

arguing in good faith, that if

1:03:48

you sufficient if you provide a

1:03:48

sufficient amount of facts, you

1:03:51

can change their mind because

1:03:51

they're ultimately a logical

1:03:54

person. And you have a great

1:03:54

deal of easy to access facts

1:03:58

that you're aware of. And kind

1:03:58

of know how they're thinking

1:04:01

about this because you

1:04:01

sympathize with our point of

1:04:03

view. Yeah, cool. I mean, that

1:04:03

works for me, that's, to me as a

1:04:06

perfectly good tactic. One of

1:04:06

the things about getting our

1:04:10

heroes out there to write in is

1:04:10

that we don't know the people

1:04:13

they're working with. And that

1:04:13

tactic might be way better than

1:04:16

mine. Okay, then taking what you

1:04:16

just said, which is take the

1:04:20

logical argument and overwhelm

1:04:20

them with facts. If overwhelming

1:04:24

them with facts doesn't work.

1:04:24

You need to appeal to the part

1:04:28

of them that wants to be

1:04:28

respected, and talk about how

1:04:33

vaccines increased not just

1:04:33

their agency, but the agency of

1:04:37

everyone around them. It's very

1:04:37

hard to resist state control if

1:04:41

you're sick. It's very hard to

1:04:41

take responsibility if you're

1:04:46

being knocked out by random

1:04:46

illnesses you could have

1:04:48

prevented. So I would approach a

1:04:48

very pragmatic point of view

1:04:53

based on what they have

1:04:53

expressed as their desire to not

1:04:57

be controlled like a child. And

1:04:57

the best way to say that is you

1:05:02

can reduce randomness in your

1:05:02

life and give you more control

1:05:05

with vaccines.

1:05:06

I think like putting

1:05:06

myself in the dad's shoes here,

1:05:10

what I would say is that I

1:05:10

speaking for the dad, I am

1:05:13

healthy enough that I would

1:05:13

simply cure this with discipline

1:05:18

and fruits and vegetables, or

1:05:18

like whatever their plan is for

1:05:22

like having willow bark or tea

1:05:22

tree extract.

1:05:26

Yeah, but if that works,

1:05:26

then it will also work on the

1:05:30

vaccine. And you can then

1:05:30

control when you get it. So you

1:05:33

can maximize your opportunity to

1:05:33

cure this with whichever method

1:05:36

you're using, and you get to

1:05:36

encounter a weaker version of

1:05:40

it. So by definition, if you

1:05:40

believe you have something that

1:05:44

will make you stronger to resist

1:05:44

this, taking the vaccine is your

1:05:47

best opportunity to prove that

1:05:47

there is no situation where if

1:05:52

you believe that your body is

1:05:52

stronger based on what you're

1:05:55

doing, it is better to randomly

1:05:55

catch the disease than to

1:05:59

control when you catch the

1:05:59

disease, which is what the

1:06:02

vaccine allows you to do. It

1:06:02

removes the randomness from this

1:06:06

equation of personal

1:06:06

responsibility. Because at the

1:06:09

end of the day, taking personal

1:06:09

responsibility is often about

1:06:12

reducing randomness, like you

1:06:12

work out, and you do both arm

1:06:16

day and leg day, because you are

1:06:16

decreasing the randomness of the

1:06:20

way you will build muscle

1:06:20

otherwise, you eat fruits and

1:06:23

vegetables, because you are

1:06:23

decreasing the randomness that

1:06:26

the food you eat is healthy. If

1:06:26

you just randomly buy things,

1:06:30

people when they talk about

1:06:30

personal responsibility, they're

1:06:33

really talking about a reduction

1:06:33

of randomness. And when they

1:06:36

say, I don't want to be

1:06:36

controlled like a child, I want

1:06:39

to be an adult. All the

1:06:39

unfortunate implications of that

1:06:42

aside, they're saying that

1:06:42

adults have control over

1:06:46

themselves, which means reducing

1:06:46

randomness. That's all control

1:06:50

is, is less randomness in your

1:06:50

life. And a vaccine is a way to

1:06:55

have less randomness in your

1:06:55

life. So if you're looking for

1:06:58

the selfish, I don't want to be

1:06:58

controlled point of view of

1:07:01

vaccine is always better than

1:07:01

not having a vaccine, you can

1:07:06

look up what's in it, maybe you

1:07:06

can get a variant on the

1:07:08

vaccine. But ultimately, what it

1:07:08

comes down to is this person

1:07:11

doesn't want to be acted upon

1:07:11

diseases act upon you. And the

1:07:16

vaccine is to is a way you can

1:07:16

remove the opportunity for that

1:07:19

disease to act upon you by

1:07:19

acting on the disease first

1:07:22

exactly the way you said. So

1:07:22

that's why I would take number

1:07:26

three, and blend everything else

1:07:26

into it in the big. This removes

1:07:30

randomness from your life, dude.

1:07:31

Hmm.

1:07:32

Because that's ultimately what it's saying, this person doesn't want to be controlled,

1:07:34

they want to have control. So

1:07:37

they need to be removing

1:07:37

randomness. That's what vaccines

1:07:40

do

1:07:41

that makes more sense

1:07:41

to me personally, I hadn't

1:07:44

really thought about the idea of

1:07:44

like, reducing randomness,

1:07:46

because I think I think of life

1:07:46

is pretty random.

1:07:50

All I think about is reducing random.

1:07:53

Maybe to like break

1:07:53

into that, like what you were

1:07:55

saying is like people that want

1:07:55

to be treated as adults should

1:08:00

act like adults, potentially, I

1:08:00

don't know, these are sort of

1:08:03

those that like, it frustrates

1:08:03

me because in the back of my

1:08:06

mind, I'm like a little bit more

1:08:06

totalitarian than that. And I'm

1:08:10

like, look like people did not

1:08:10

were not forced to take these

1:08:13

things. And then, like, they

1:08:13

weren't forced to go into

1:08:16

isolation, and then they went to

1:08:16

Florida spring break, and they

1:08:20

fucked it all up for the rest of

1:08:20

us. And so in some ways, I'm

1:08:23

like, Oh, no, you did act like a

1:08:23

child and now you get treated

1:08:26

like a child. I'm not gonna you

1:08:26

shouldn't spank your children,

1:08:30

but Spanky, Spanky, Spanky,

1:08:33

the slippery fascist

1:08:33

slope. Let's also be clear, it

1:08:41

is the executive branch's fault,

1:08:41

this would handle poorly, yes,

1:08:45

the people who went on spring break and they're still gathering in big groups to watch

1:08:47

things are not making it better.

1:08:51

It is bad right now, because of

1:08:51

the executive branch. You can

1:08:55

blame other people for what

1:08:55

they're doing. They're not

1:08:58

taking personal responsibility.

1:08:58

But the lack of a good national

1:09:01

response, which is what we were

1:09:01

always going to need is the

1:09:05

executive branch's fault. Now

1:09:05

carry on with what you were

1:09:07

saying.

1:09:07

Okay, 1. I want to say that you shouldn't spank your children

1:09:10

agreed, agreed

1:09:11

2. Yes, I would just

1:09:11

back that up. Like, there are so

1:09:16

many times that this could have

1:09:16

happened or almost happened, but

1:09:19

we had someone at the top to be

1:09:19

like, hey, like, let's shut this

1:09:24

down right away. And then I was

1:09:24

reading some other comments

1:09:27

somewhere on the face book that

1:09:27

said that the previous

1:09:32

administration had let stuff

1:09:32

become bloated. And so that's

1:09:37

why Trump changed things because

1:09:37

it was like more efficient that

1:09:43

way. It does not deal with the

1:09:43

person posting does not deal

1:09:47

with the fact that like a lot of

1:09:47

the other people were so upset

1:09:50

by this they then like left.

1:09:52

Yeah, we know the

1:09:52

administration screwed this up.

1:09:55

So tactic overview to answer our

1:09:55

heroes question. You and I kind

1:09:59

came up with two tactics, one is

1:09:59

explaining to this person using

1:10:05

their desire to not be

1:10:05

controlled by outside forces,

1:10:09

the desire to be treated like an

1:10:09

adult, not controlled like a

1:10:11

child, to discuss with them how

1:10:11

vaccines reduce the randomness

1:10:16

in their own life, via various

1:10:16

methods like, it allows you to

1:10:20

catch the disease when you want.

1:10:20

If you truly believe your method

1:10:24

will prevent you from getting

1:10:24

sick, then there's no reason to

1:10:27

get it randomly, you might as

1:10:27

well just do it like on a Friday

1:10:30

when you can just spend the

1:10:30

whole weekend getting better. So

1:10:34

from that perspective, you can

1:10:34

use that tactic to talk with

1:10:37

them about this desire to have

1:10:37

not to be controlled and how

1:10:40

taking a vaccine is taking

1:10:40

control. And they can do things

1:10:44

like talk with their doctor, and

1:10:44

you are taking control over what

1:10:50

is essentially a random event.

1:10:50

By getting a vaccine, it

1:10:53

significantly reduces the

1:10:53

randomness in your life. Because

1:10:57

you're right, you could get a

1:10:57

vaccine and still get it. But if

1:11:00

you don't take the vaccine, you

1:11:00

could still get it, you haven't

1:11:03

actually, what you have done by

1:11:03

taking the vaccine is reduced

1:11:06

the chances of you getting it

1:11:06

I think that's what I was trying to get up earlier when I was saying that, like

1:11:08

your body does work as a whole.

1:11:11

So yes, you could get a vaccine

1:11:11

and have no minerals, no

1:11:16

vitamins, no extra proteins in

1:11:16

your body and like not be able

1:11:20

to produce the white blood cells

1:11:20

that you need. And then your

1:11:24

F'ed even though you took the

1:11:24

thing. But the other side of

1:11:27

that is you can still eat all of

1:11:27

the things that you like need to

1:11:31

eat and have a very balanced

1:11:31

diet and exercise. And as COVID

1:11:36

is showing still get very, very,

1:11:36

very ill

1:11:41

you can be in the low risk

1:11:41

group and die as COVID is

1:11:43

showing. It just reduces the

1:11:43

randomness in your life. So that

1:11:46

that's the tactic I expressed

1:11:46

and chicory you expressed a

1:11:49

slightly different tactic. Do

1:11:49

you want to summarize it, or you

1:11:52

want me to summarize it,

1:11:52

You summarize it because I'll get lost in the weeds again.

1:11:54

So your tactic is really

1:11:54

interesting, because it's an

1:11:58

empathic, sympathetic argument,

1:11:58

where you're saying, I have felt

1:12:03

that way. I go to the doctor's

1:12:03

office, and the doctor makes me

1:12:06

feel like a statistic. So I want

1:12:06

to go out and grab life, like,

1:12:11

I'm not a fucking statistic, I'm

1:12:11

going to go climb and be the

1:12:14

best climber in my gym. And so

1:12:14

you go out, but you want to

1:12:19

appeal to them, when you don't

1:12:19

get vaccinated. And when you

1:12:23

don't approach health as a

1:12:23

public concern, you're treating

1:12:27

everyone around you the same way

1:12:27

you don't want to be treated by

1:12:30

that doctor, you're treating

1:12:30

them all as a statistic. That's

1:12:34

sure they could do what you're

1:12:34

doing. But they're not. So it

1:12:38

doesn't matter. So you're

1:12:38

appealing to their better nature

1:12:41

of seeing everyone like

1:12:41

themselves. And I'm discussing

1:12:45

their selfish nature of they

1:12:45

don't want to be controlled.

1:12:48

That is something that

1:12:48

my side falls down on is that

1:12:52

there is this thing of like, I

1:12:52

guess, like I was coming from it

1:12:55

with my thought pattern of being

1:12:55

like, they don't understand how

1:13:00

they are wrong. Like they have

1:13:00

to understand that the vaccine

1:13:05

will actually help them not hurt

1:13:05

them and not weaken them

1:13:08

statistically, unless they have

1:13:08

an allergy to it to sort of

1:13:12

grasp what you're saying that

1:13:12

this is reducing their chances

1:13:15

and is mitigate getting a lot of

1:13:15

risk. And this is looking sort

1:13:19

of cheating. And going ahead

1:13:19

into the the second paragraph

1:13:22

where they're just wrong about

1:13:22

vaccines.

1:13:25

Yeah. Well, they were wrong about vaccines in the first paragraph, too. Let's be

1:13:27

honest.

1:13:29

Yeah. Well,

1:13:30

essentially, the

1:13:30

distinction is, I made the logos

1:13:33

argument, you made the ethos

1:13:33

argument, and our hero made the

1:13:36

pathos those arguments. So we

1:13:36

know that pathos didn't really

1:13:39

work because it just led to

1:13:39

paragraph two. If our hero had

1:13:42

had more energy, maybe pathos

1:13:42

would have worked overall. But

1:13:45

since we saw pathos didn't

1:13:45

really work, because of their

1:13:48

very sketchy knowledge on how

1:13:48

vaccines work, you and I were

1:13:51

able to look at different

1:13:51

tactics. So from a logical point

1:13:55

of view, if you don't want to be

1:13:55

controlled, reducing randomness

1:13:58

gives you more control over your

1:13:58

life from an ethical point of

1:14:01

view. If you don't want to be

1:14:01

treated as a statistic, don't

1:14:04

treat other people as a

1:14:04

statistic. Those are the two

1:14:06

tactics we approach with there

1:14:06

are others. But those are kind

1:14:10

of the ways we looked at it from

1:14:10

a conversational point of view.

1:14:13

Does that make sense Chi? Did I

1:14:13

get what you were saying?

1:14:15

Yeah, mine is that

1:14:15

like, if you want to be right

1:14:18

about supporting your body, then

1:14:18

you have to know how your body

1:14:23

works and how it is going to

1:14:23

react to disease and how the

1:14:27

vaccine helps your body

1:14:29

Which is also a logical arguement.

1:14:31

Haha, logic.

1:14:32

Cool. So how do we want to

1:14:33

I know this time We

1:14:33

ove you dad. But You're Wrong. Y

1:14:35

I guess we're done.

1:14:36

u're Wrong, dad you're wrong,

1:14:36

ut we love you.

1:14:49

Thanks for listening to this episode of Dad You're Wrong. For transcripts

1:14:51

and show notes, check out

1:14:53

dadyourewrong.buzzsprout.com To

1:14:53

contact us, you can email us at

1:14:59

dadyourewrong@gmail.com or on

1:14:59

Twitter @dadyourewrong. Thanks

1:15:04

for your patience and we hope

1:15:04

you and your loved ones are well