0:02

In the annals of tech history,

0:04

the names Steve Jobs and Steve

0:06

Wozniak are etched in gold as

0:08

the visionary founders of Apple. But

0:10

there's a lesser known figure, a

0:13

third co-founder whose brief involvement with

0:15

the company is a tale of

0:17

both caution and missed opportunities. His

0:20

name was Ronald Wayne. On

0:23

April 1st, 1976, Wayne joined Jobs

0:25

and Wozniak in founding Apple

0:27

Computer Company. At age 41,

0:30

he was significantly older than his 21 and

0:32

25-year-old partners. Wayne

0:35

was brought on board for his business

0:37

acumen, tasked with writing the partnership agreement

0:39

and providing adult supervision to this young,

0:42

enthusiastic duo. However, Wayne's

0:44

tenure at Apple was shockingly brief.

0:47

Just 12 days after the company's inception, he sold

0:49

his 10% stake for $800. His

0:54

decision was rooted in a mix of

0:56

caution and foresight that ironically failed to

0:58

anticipate Apple's meteoric rise. Wayne

1:01

had previous entrepreneurial experience that

1:03

ended in financial difficulties. This

1:05

made him wary of the risks associated

1:08

with Apple's ambitious plans. He saw Jobs

1:10

and Wozniak as brilliant, but potentially reckless.

1:13

Their enthusiasm bordering on dangerous

1:15

in Wayne's conservative estimation. Moreover,

1:18

he was concerned about potential legal issues.

1:21

In those days, if a partnership went bankrupt, personal

1:23

assets of all partners could be seized to pay

1:25

off debts. Given Jobs'

1:27

tendency to rack up expenses

1:29

in Wayne's relative financial stability,

1:31

he felt particularly vulnerable. Wayne's

1:34

departure from Apple is often viewed as one

1:36

of the costliest decisions in business history. Had

1:39

he retained his 10% stake, it

1:41

would be worth billions today.

1:44

Yet, Wayne maintains he doesn't regret his

1:46

choice, stating he made the best decision

1:48

with the information available at the time.

1:52

Ronald Wayne's story serves as a

1:54

poignant reminder of the unpredictability of

1:56

success in the business world. While

1:59

Jobs and Wozniak are the act went on to

2:01

revolutionize personal computing, Wayne chose a path of

2:03

caution. In the end,

2:05

his brief stint as Apple's third

2:08

co-founder offers a unique perspective on

2:10

risk, foresight, and the sometimes cruel

2:12

ironies of business. His

2:14

tale is a testament to the fact that in

2:17

a world of startups, and especially in

2:19

the creative space, what seems too dangerous to

2:21

one might be the very spark that ignites

2:23

a revolution for another. But

2:26

it also holds another important lesson. What

2:29

happens when safety becomes your

2:31

most important priority? Granted,

2:34

things could have turned out very differently. What

2:36

if Wayne was right and Apple went to

2:38

zero? On

2:40

today's episode, we explore our natural craving

2:42

for safety and whether and how it

2:45

can interfere with our life, our work,

2:48

and our creative process. This

2:51

is Daily Creative, a podcast for creative pros

2:54

who want to be brave, focused, and brilliant

2:56

every day. My name is Todd Henry. Welcome

2:58

to the show. This

3:03

illusion, and I'll call it the illusion of safety,

3:07

is what we have gravitated toward.

3:09

And you and

3:11

I know because we have led teams

3:13

before and built companies, and we've

3:16

experienced this ourselves, is that safety

3:18

is just that. Safety is

3:21

an illusion. And the reality

3:23

is that all of the best stuff

3:25

in life is on the other side

3:27

of our comfort zone. Safety is an

3:29

illusion. That's a pretty

3:31

provocative statement. After all, chasing

3:33

danger just seems like a really bad idea.

3:36

But that's not really what Chase Jarvis

3:38

is talking about. He's

3:40

talking about the safety that comes with what

3:42

seems like the perks of a nice, safe,

3:45

predictable life. Stable

3:47

job, steady industry, predictable career path.

3:49

As many have discovered before him,

3:51

Chase argues that this kind of

3:53

perceived safety is maybe more dangerous

3:55

because you're putting others in control

3:57

of your life. This

3:59

is a- a lesson that he learned pretty early in

4:01

life. I think it

4:03

would be a mistake to not start

4:06

out in second grade, which sounds crazy.

4:08

I'll put a tighty bow on this, but in

4:11

second grade, I was coming off having launched

4:13

my first film. Okay, wait, what? I

4:15

mean, I'm pretty sure I was

4:17

still learning how to make letter shapes in

4:19

first grade. And Chase had made a film,

4:22

but that's not the craziest part of the

4:24

story. That was just one part of his

4:27

entrepreneurial portfolio. I created a film

4:29

summer between first and second grade. That

4:31

film was profitable. I screened it in

4:33

my neighbor's basement to the audience in

4:35

the neighborhood, charged 50

4:37

cents to get in or whatever, and

4:39

created a profitable film. And I

4:42

rolled into second grade on a high, right? I

4:44

was just like, creative kid. I had a comic

4:46

strip that I was publishing every week. I had

4:48

a magic show, stand-up comedy routine. And

4:51

at some point, Miss Kelly, she shut it

4:53

all down. She said the comic strip was

4:55

a business, wasn't appropriate. Who am

4:57

I to think that creativity was important? And

5:00

so I embarked, as one does when they

5:02

listen to adults in their life at second

5:05

grade, I snapped to it, looked

5:07

like a little soldier. And she said,

5:09

you know, you should really pursue sports. You're good at

5:12

sports and, you know, steer away from this other stuff

5:14

that doesn't matter. And

5:16

so fast forward, you know, a dozen years,

5:18

I was the typical senior, was the award

5:20

that I got when I graduated high school,

5:22

which that sounds just terrifyingly awful to me.

5:24

And it was. But

5:27

I just pursued a life that the

5:29

adults in my life thought was good and safe

5:31

and smart and practical, all of those things. And

5:34

you know, to bring that around to your actual

5:36

question, at some point,

5:39

you know, when I was $100,000 in student

5:41

debt after chasing a career

5:43

toward medical school, when I had bailed on a career

5:45

in professional soccer, done all of, run

5:47

away from all the things that the world thought

5:49

were, you know, too risky, I just

5:52

found myself essentially in a

5:54

ball on the floor wondering what was I doing? And

5:58

from that point forward, I. I

6:00

made a commitment to myself to pursue

6:02

the things that were interesting to me.

6:04

And pursue them he did. Chase has

6:06

lived a very broad, diverse, and successful

6:08

creative life. I did go on

6:10

to become one of the top commercial photographers in

6:12

the world. I directed Emmy nominated director, TV series,

6:16

and written

6:18

a couple books. I built an online

6:20

learning platform called Creative Live, which served

6:22

tens of millions of people, made hundreds

6:24

of millions in revenue, and was ultimately

6:26

acquired by a big public company. So

6:31

I say those things as if they're victories, and

6:35

as a resistance or reflection on Ms.

6:37

Kelly's message to me in second grade.

6:40

And yet what I realized in

6:42

sitting down to write this book was that

6:45

this was not linear, and there were dozens

6:47

if not hundreds of tiny betrayals of who

6:49

I was along the way,

6:52

and that ultimately there was just a

6:54

pattern if we can get good at developing

6:56

the muscle of listening to who we

6:59

are, finding our way back to ourselves, back to

7:01

our true nature, and the things that light us

7:03

up and make us happy. That those things aren't

7:05

safe, that safety is an

7:08

illusion. And so how

7:10

do we, what are the tools, the

7:12

necessary ingredients to be able to

7:14

listen to ourselves and to pursue our true nature

7:16

and our path in this world? That

7:19

has been, I guess, the arc of my life, and

7:22

I tried to capture that in this latest

7:24

book. One

7:26

of my favorite thinkers and authors was

7:29

a guy named Thomas Merton. He

7:31

was a 20th century mystic and

7:33

monk cloister just outside of Louisville,

7:35

Kentucky. But he wrote some of

7:37

the most profound things about creativity,

7:39

life, and even leadership. One

7:42

of my favorite Merton quotes, which I often

7:44

use in my keynotes, is this. There

7:47

can be an intense egoism in following everyone

7:49

else. People are in a

7:51

hurry to magnify themselves by imitating what

7:53

is popular and too lazy to think

7:55

of anything better. Hurry, ruin

7:58

saints as well as artists. They

8:00

want quick success, and they are in such a hurry

8:02

to get it that they cannot take time to be

8:04

true to themselves. And when

8:06

the madness is upon them, they argue that

8:08

their very haste is a species

8:11

of integrity. Following

8:14

others just because it might lead to

8:16

quick success, well, that's just a

8:18

form of laziness. And the

8:20

sad part is you actually lose yourself

8:23

in the process. But

8:25

to stay true to yourself, even when it means

8:27

being misunderstood or looked down upon, and

8:30

the success might be deferred or never

8:32

even realized, well, that's

8:34

the definition of courage. Helen

8:38

Keller said, security is mostly a superstition. It

8:41

does not exist in nature, nor do the children

8:43

of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding

8:45

danger is no safer in the long run

8:48

than outright exposure. Life

8:50

is either a daring adventure or nothing. So

8:53

that particular quote was very inspiring

8:56

in many ways, at

8:59

the core of which was, it

9:01

started matching my own experiences when I really listened

9:03

to it. It's like, wait

9:05

a minute, every time I

9:07

pursued the thing that seemed safe,

9:10

it wasn't like I avoided trouble, problems,

9:12

or risk. It

9:15

just were—there were different risks, different problems,

9:17

and I would argue potentially

9:20

even worse problems and worse risks

9:23

and stuff that I wasn't prepared or

9:25

didn't have the capacity to navigate because they

9:27

were not my true nature. I

9:30

found myself in places where I didn't

9:32

belong. It's just the data

9:34

is clear, our human experiences are clear, rough

9:37

patches will happen. And

9:39

the cool twist is that if

9:42

by extension you do the things that

9:44

you're attuned to, that are passionate, that

9:47

are intriguing or curious to you, even

9:49

in the face of risk, you are

9:51

actually better suited to manage those risks

9:53

because you care. You

9:56

are interested to get to the other side of our

9:58

comfort zone because there's a belief in understanding. that

10:01

that's where the best stuff is. This

10:03

realization about human nature wasn't just something

10:05

from Chase's own anecdotal experience. It was

10:07

something he saw in the lives of

10:09

countless others he interviewed or met in

10:12

his professional life. You go back

10:14

to my story about Miss Kelly, uh,

10:16

what's fascinating is that when I, you know,

10:19

dove into my own past, my psyche,

10:22

the psyche of many of the people that I've had on my

10:24

podcast, you know, thousand or

10:26

more of the world's top creators

10:28

and entrepreneurs and, and you do

10:30

find a pattern that while

10:33

we were talked out of those things, there are,

10:35

there are seven tools that reside within us, which

10:37

we have also been talked out of, things like

10:39

our intuition, things like our

10:42

ability to direct our attention, the

10:45

perception that constraints are

10:47

terrible, they're what keep us down. When

10:50

in reality, I can look at any one of those things

10:52

like the ability to direct

10:54

our attention, this is all we have

10:56

in this life. Intuition actually takes into

10:58

consideration rational thought plus all of those,

11:00

you know, what our neurobiology feels at

11:02

a cellular level, that's why they call

11:04

it a gut feeling, right? So we

11:07

now know that intuition is as powerful or

11:10

more than rational thought and, you know,

11:13

constraints. What are, what do

11:15

constraints do if, if not show us a path,

11:17

right? If you, if I, you said you wanted

11:19

to build a house, the first thing you have

11:21

to decide is where you're going to build the

11:23

house. And in choosing that thing, you're right, you're

11:26

actually saying I'm not going to build it in these

11:28

10 million other places. So, you

11:31

know, our attention, intuition and

11:33

constraints, these have

11:35

been talked out of us. One of

11:37

the reasons that we get talked out

11:39

of our own intuition is that there are

11:42

powerful biological and psychological forces that in many

11:44

ways, hem us in. We

11:46

are, in a lot of ways, wired to

11:48

just go along as a survival mechanism. And

11:51

that often starts by paying close attention

11:53

to what everyone else seems to be

11:55

wanting or doing, and

11:57

then simply copying that. There's

12:00

a concept pioneered by the French

12:03

philosopher, René Gérard, called

12:05

mimesis, which this

12:07

is the human being's desire

12:10

to essentially imitate the

12:12

things that we see. And

12:15

the challenge with us as a

12:17

species when we gravitate to copying

12:20

the things of others is

12:22

that we actually

12:24

lose track of our own

12:26

desire. And memetic desires,

12:28

if we can only desire the things that

12:31

we already see out in the world, what

12:33

a narrow swath of possibilities that starts to

12:35

become over time. Ironically, the

12:37

people that we look up to and respect and

12:39

appreciate, by and large, they are

12:41

people who are trailblazers in any field. This

12:43

is why we love amazing artists.

12:46

This is why we love musicians, because they're

12:48

standing on the stage doing their

12:50

own thing, coring out the something that

12:52

they've created. And it's seductive, and

12:55

it's seductive because this is what we were

12:57

meant to do. It's

12:59

just like a muscle, just like anything

13:01

else, like our own creativity, start agreeing

13:03

or being willing to take small lightweight

13:05

chances, trusting your intuition that you can

13:07

develop that muscle, that that will take

13:10

you to the place where you want

13:12

to go on the other side of a comfort zone, on

13:14

the other side of playing it

13:16

safe. Because if playing

13:18

it safe is hopping into the past,

13:21

those well-worn ruts of others, and

13:24

by extension, not playing it safe is venturing

13:26

out on our own, listening to who we

13:28

were meant to be and the

13:31

things that truly intrigue us, rather than what

13:33

our parents and career counselors and

13:35

the people who have come before us want for us.

13:38

What a rich, wild, and special experience

13:40

we get to have of life.

13:45

Chase Jarvis's new book is called Never Play

13:47

It Safe and is available now wherever books

13:50

are sold. And you

13:52

can listen to our full interview, in which

13:54

we discuss some strategies for overcoming our desire

13:56

for predictable safety, and even the role of

13:58

AI in lulling a- and the stagnancy

14:01

in our full interview, which is available

14:03

in the Daily Creative app at dailycreative.app.

14:07

When we come back, I'm gonna share a

14:09

few personal thoughts and application points for

14:11

all of us around the concept of

14:13

safety, leadership, and creative

14:15

work. We'll be back in a

14:18

minute, stick around. Hi

14:31

everyone, this is Todd Henry. My new book, The

14:33

Brave Habit, is available now wherever books are sold

14:35

in paperback, ebook, and audiobook. I think it's my

14:37

favorite book I've ever written, and a lot of

14:39

people are telling me it's their favorite book as

14:42

well. I think you're gonna like it. So check

14:44

it out wherever books are sold, or

14:46

at thebravehabit.com. Now,

14:48

on with the show. I

14:55

really, really enjoyed that conversation with Chase,

14:57

and it actually had me thinking about

14:59

ways in which I am or

15:02

have gravitated towards safety

15:04

and comfort in my own life, my

15:06

own work. Many of you know that

15:08

earlier this year, we completely reinvented. The

15:11

brand and the podcast, I turned my back

15:14

on 18 years of work, and

15:17

we started over with episode one. And if you want to

15:19

hear that story, you can listen to it. I think it's

15:21

episode four or five. It's called The Curious Death of Todd

15:23

Henry. So you can go back and listen to that if

15:25

you want to. But here are a couple

15:27

of things that came to mind for me as I was talking

15:29

with Chase about his new book, Never Play It Safe. The first

15:31

is this. Shunning safety

15:34

is not an excuse for recklessness.

15:37

As a matter of fact, often people

15:39

take reckless risks because

15:41

they want to show that they're

15:43

brave, but actually that's just kind

15:45

of bravado. It's not really bravery.

15:48

Bravery always accounts for risk. We're

15:50

talking about taking calculated risk,

15:53

not foolish behavior. So

15:55

ensure that you have people around you who

15:57

are speaking truth to you, people who are...

16:00

telling you the way things really are, not the

16:02

way that they wish they were for you. People

16:04

who will tell you, hey, that's for you

16:07

or that's not for you. We need a

16:09

council of trusted advisors around us as

16:11

we're making decisions about our life and

16:13

our career. So that's the

16:16

first thing. Shunning safety is not an

16:18

excuse for recklessness. We want to be

16:20

taking calculated risks in our life.

16:22

The second thing is this. Risk

16:25

is a portfolio. So

16:27

while you may have a day

16:29

job that provides you with security and stability

16:31

and all of the things that it seemed

16:34

like we were speaking ill of,

16:36

and I wasn't at all speaking ill of having

16:38

a day job, but we

16:40

need to make sure that we're taking

16:43

risks in other areas of our life

16:45

outside of that. Find

16:48

places where you can express yourself. Take some

16:50

risks in areas of life where you have

16:52

latitude to do so. Start something on the

16:54

side. Create work and put it into the

16:56

world. Go out and find a people group

16:58

to serve in some way. Go

17:01

out and find a community you can build into. We

17:03

need to be taking risk in some

17:06

place in our life, creative risk, to

17:08

make things to add value to contribute

17:10

to the world around us. So while

17:12

maybe the way that you make

17:14

a living doesn't feel necessarily terribly

17:17

risky and unsafe, that's okay because

17:19

risk is a portfolio. So some

17:21

parts of your life might be

17:23

more feel more risky than others,

17:25

might feel less safe than others.

17:27

That's fine. Think of

17:29

risk as a portfolio. The

17:31

third thing is this. Everyone has a

17:33

different tolerance for risk. So

17:35

we need to make sure that we

17:38

celebrate small wins when we can, and

17:40

don't judge other people's decisions. We are

17:42

all on our own journey. What feels

17:44

imminently risky to one person feels incredibly

17:47

safe to another. So we

17:49

have to recognize that we each have a different risk

17:51

tolerance. Don't listen to someone else's story and think, I

17:53

need to be just like them. Let's not share.

17:57

Everyone has a different risk tolerance. And

18:00

then finally, the fourth thing is this. Remember,

18:03

safety is not an option. It's

18:05

an illusion. Even when you

18:07

feel safe, even when you feel like

18:10

everything is predictable and stable and secure,

18:12

recognize that it's actually not, that

18:15

there is really no such

18:17

thing as safety and complete

18:19

security. So act

18:22

accordingly. Hey,

18:25

thanks so much for listening. If

18:28

you would like to hear

18:30

full interviews, get daily podcast

18:32

episodes, guides, courses, and

18:34

access to the full archives dating back years and

18:36

years and years, hundreds of episodes, you can do

18:38

so at dailycreative.app. That's

18:41

also a great way to support the show.

18:43

We are a completely listener supported show. My

18:46

name is Todd Henry. You can find my work

18:48

at toddhenry.com. That's where you'll find my books, my

18:51

speaking, and all of my other work.

18:54

Thanks again for listening. Until next time, may

18:57

you be brave, focused, and brilliant.