0:01

You're listening to a

0:03

complexly podcast. Hello and

0:05

welcome to dear Hank and John. Or

0:07

as I prefer to think of it,

0:09

dear John and Hank. It's a

0:11

podcast where two brothers answer your

0:14

questions give you dubious advice and

0:16

bring you all the week's news

0:18

from both Mars and A F

0:20

C Wimbledon. John. Yeah. I, for

0:23

Christmas, got a brand new monitor.

0:25

This is true story. Oh, cool.

0:27

So you know what my New

0:29

Year's resolution is? 1080P. 4K baby!

0:31

Oh, congratulations. You're really living

0:34

the dream. I'm gonna take

0:36

off my ski jacket. It's

0:38

very loud. I'm glad you're

0:40

doing that. It's real, it's

0:42

real cold outside and there's

0:44

also eight inches of snow.

0:46

So I've been engaging in

0:48

a uniquely Midwestern tradition called

0:50

golf cart sledding with my

0:53

children where I dragged them

0:55

around behind a golf cart.

0:57

That's great. I went regular sledding.

0:59

a uniquely Montana tradition occurred where

1:01

everyone kept saying how warm it

1:04

was. Oh, I love that. No,

1:06

it's not warm here. It's like

1:08

20 degrees. It's plenty cold. Yeah,

1:10

it was like 34 and everyone

1:12

was like, God, it's so warm.

1:15

Yeah, not our problem. And plus

1:17

with the wind whipping through your

1:19

face when you're golf carting, it

1:21

really, it really cools the core.

1:24

I bet. It's been a very

1:26

weird winter here. We just got

1:28

our first big snow. It had

1:30

snowed like less than a quarter

1:32

inch until January. But it

1:34

is now time to shovel and

1:37

I've been shoveling and my back

1:39

hurts also because I was

1:41

sledding and that also hurt my

1:43

back. There's a year at which

1:45

you stop sledding, but I'm not

1:48

there yet. You're close though because I'm there.

1:50

I'm there. It's right around the corner. It's

1:52

like when you start to need bifocals. It's

1:54

the same age I don't know there was

1:56

a bunch of guys older than me sledding,

1:59

but they all It also looked like

2:01

the kind of guys who do other

2:03

things besides sledding. Right, yeah,

2:05

they're in to crossfit. Yeah,

2:07

they might crossfit. They definitely

2:09

cross country things, whether that's

2:11

skiing or running or mandolin playing.

2:13

They looked like they could play

2:15

a mandolin. Yeah, now I hear

2:18

you, I can imagine Montana people

2:20

who look like they can play

2:22

a mandolin and like to sled.

2:24

Very different from the Indiana golf

2:26

cart sledding crowd. I think there

2:28

are foods that I have eaten

2:30

in the last day that they

2:32

have not eaten in the last

2:34

10 years. Sure. And probably vice

2:36

versa. Should we do the McElroy

2:38

Brothers thing where we give the

2:40

year a special name or should we

2:42

leave that to our esteemed colleagues? It's

2:44

so good. It's my favorite episode of

2:46

the year. I just listened. The new

2:49

one just came out. I haven't heard

2:51

it yet. It's great. I think we should

2:53

go with 2020 vibes. We're just going

2:55

to steal like their second one down

2:57

one down. Yeah, yeah, one of

3:00

their most obvious ones, one

3:02

of the ones that they

3:04

dismiss immediately. Yeah, because they

3:06

have to get to fungalore,

3:08

who I do love. And

3:10

I like, I want to,

3:12

I want there to be a

3:15

whole series of fungal

3:17

or graphic novels, but

3:19

I guess we're beyond fungalore

3:21

now. 2020. So what

3:23

about just 2020 knife?

3:25

What I like about 2020

3:28

vibes is that it's evoking

3:30

the vibes of 2020, the

3:32

best year ever. Right. 2020

3:35

vibes sounds like, ah, we're

3:37

gonna vibe. And then you

3:39

listen to it a little

3:42

more closely and you're like,

3:44

oh no. We're gonna vibe.

3:46

Oh, I don't want the

3:49

2020 vibes. No. Those are

3:51

some of the worst vibes.

3:53

Do you have any New Year's resolutions?

3:55

This is our first question. It's from

3:58

Ed, who writes. And Ed, Ed. by

4:00

the way, writes in all capital

4:02

letters. He, not with anything else,

4:04

but just with his name. So

4:06

I guess his name is Ed.

4:08

Dear John and Hank, time is

4:10

a funny construct. No, no, no,

4:12

no, no. You have to read

4:14

it the way Ed wrote it.

4:16

Dear John and Hank. No, he

4:18

didn't. Nothing else is in capital

4:20

letters. Just Ed. Okay. Dear John

4:22

and Hank, time is a funny

4:25

construct. As we wrap up another

4:27

year, I'm curious what steps you're

4:29

taking heading into a new one.

4:31

How do you organize or plan

4:33

for the many things you want

4:35

to do in the coming year?

4:37

I always feel like I have

4:39

more interest in time to pursue

4:41

them. You too seem similar, except

4:43

much better at executing your pursuit.

4:45

Resolution Revolution. Maybe. Or it could

4:47

be Eric Dyson. Eric Dyson. The

4:49

famous son of Freeman Dysonon. No,

4:51

I think Eric Dyson is a,

4:54

uh, Michael Eric Dyson is an

4:56

academic guy. Oh, okay. No, not

4:58

a vacuum guy. He's a completely

5:00

different person. He's a Baptist minister

5:02

and radio host and professor at

5:04

Vanderbilt. That's a lot of things.

5:06

He also has many interests. I

5:08

bet he also plays the kkkkmandolin

5:10

and he's good for you food.

5:12

First off, don't curse, you gotta

5:14

come up with something else. And

5:16

I bet he's in great shape.

5:18

And he seems like he's in

5:20

reasonable good shape. Saxophone. I want

5:23

to play the saxophone. I want

5:25

to play the saxophone. I want,

5:27

there's so many things that I

5:29

want to do, but none of

5:31

those are my New Year's resolution.

5:33

My New Year's resolution is 4K.

5:35

No. 4K, what's that mean? Are

5:37

you fucking joking right now? Oh,

5:39

I'm sorry. Stop cursing. We're going

5:41

to believe that one. It's a

5:43

family-friendly podcast. I don't... It's not

5:45

hard to not curse. It's not

5:47

even going to have any noise

5:49

on the either end. Okay. All

5:52

right, good. I agree, and I

5:54

will work hard to not. John.

5:56

Hank's first New Year's resolution is

5:58

to curse less on the podcast,

6:00

so we don't have to make

6:02

tune of bleep stuff. Have F'd

6:04

up. Orin says F'd sometimes, and

6:06

I'm like, that's also not allowed.

6:08

Yeah, it's right on the line.

6:10

Yeah. Like I don't mind if

6:12

my 14-year-old son says it, but

6:14

I'm minded if Orin says it.

6:16

Yeah, he's not. He can't like

6:18

bust that out in the classroom.

6:21

I'll tell you speaking of busting

6:23

it out. When Alice went to

6:25

the Olivier-Rodrigo concert with me, Olivier-Rodrigo

6:27

has some bad words, or I

6:29

shouldn't say bad words, naughty words,

6:31

in her music, of course, and

6:33

Alice belted it, belted it, fearlessly.

6:35

It was beautiful to see. Yeah,

6:37

that's totally appropriate, I think. Hank

6:39

and I are not nearly as

6:41

good at doing all the things

6:43

that we do as we seem

6:45

like we are. We do not

6:47

have things nearly under the level

6:49

of control that we appear to

6:52

have things under. We are in

6:54

a constant we are in a

6:56

constant battle to keep our heads

6:58

above water and we are really

7:00

stressed out all the time and

7:02

I feel like it's a disservice

7:04

to our community to pretend otherwise.

7:06

I agree and but I don't

7:08

really know how to do it

7:10

like part of me wants to.

7:12

like just like even for the

7:14

teams like for the people who

7:16

work with us I feel like

7:18

that like I want to keep

7:21

up the illusion right but I

7:23

you know I well let's get

7:25

real maybe 20 maybe that our

7:27

first maybe it's 2020 less oh

7:29

this is actually the title of

7:31

this of a script I've written

7:33

it's called how to do less

7:35

with less with less with less

7:37

with less with less And I

7:39

will probably finish that and bust

7:41

that out sometime soon. But maybe

7:43

our first episode of the year

7:45

is the one where we get

7:47

real real real. So here's my

7:50

real real situation. if it's okay

7:52

for me to get real, real,

7:54

which is that I am- Get

7:56

real. I'm now in basically the

7:58

peak season for relapse if I'm

8:00

going to relapse, which is not

8:02

like a calm thing. I remember

8:04

when I first finished treatment, I

8:06

was really worried that I still

8:08

had cancer and I like talked

8:10

about that with my doctor and

8:12

he was like, oh, if you

8:14

relapse, it's not gonna be now.

8:16

It's gonna be in like a

8:19

year and a half. And so

8:21

you're gonna be really worried right

8:23

now because you've just gone through

8:25

it and you like experience, like

8:27

you're very close to the trauma

8:29

and all, he's a great doctor.

8:31

But like a year and a

8:33

half from now is when you,

8:35

like I need to see you,

8:37

you need to be taking care

8:39

of yourself, like that's, and like,

8:41

part of that is because it

8:43

takes a little while for the

8:45

cells to, you know, duplicate to

8:47

the point where they're detectable. But

8:50

part of it is just that

8:52

like, like, Like, little things

8:54

go wrong over time. And so

8:56

if like little things go wrong,

8:58

then any microscopic cancer that might

9:00

have been there can have some

9:02

chances to come back. And he

9:05

was also, one of the things

9:07

he said, was tried to not

9:09

be too stressed out because that's

9:11

one of the chief risk factors

9:13

for relapse. And like- I love

9:15

it when people tell me not

9:17

to stress out and then tell

9:19

me, hey, in 18 months, you

9:21

might get cancer. But don't worry

9:24

about it because that would make

9:26

it more likely that you're going

9:28

to get cancer again, but do

9:30

know that if you're going to

9:32

get it, you're going to get

9:34

it. You're going to get it.

9:36

But I was a lot better

9:38

at controlling my stress right afterward

9:40

because like, one, I looked really

9:43

sick so no one bothered me

9:45

about anything. I felt like... I

9:47

was, you know, I had already

9:49

taken, I had taken care of

9:51

like the big worry in my

9:53

life. And so like that was

9:55

the big worry in my life

9:57

and all the other, you know,

9:59

all the other contexts that I

10:02

exist inside of that contain worries

10:04

were minimized and not, we're not

10:06

very present in my mind. And

10:08

now a year and a half

10:10

later, as I have like. and

10:12

like you know from from here

10:14

it doesn't like disappear after a

10:16

year and a half it just

10:18

sort of slowly tapers off until

10:21

at five years you're at roughly

10:23

the background rates or like actually

10:25

like ten times the background rate

10:27

but low enough that they call

10:29

you call you cured and and

10:31

so like I'm like sitting in

10:33

bed being stressed out about work

10:35

but then being stressed out that

10:37

I'm stressed out because I'm worried

10:40

that I'm like increasing my chances

10:42

of relapse at the moment when

10:44

my chances of relapse are highest.

10:46

And I'm like, oh, like last

10:48

night I had this moment where

10:50

I was like sitting in bed

10:52

and I felt a lot better

10:54

when I had the thought, you

10:56

know what's more important? And like

10:59

everybody agrees? Is that like you

11:01

survive? Is that you don't have

11:03

to do more cancer treatment? Like,

11:05

I probably would. survive more like

11:07

I probably would even if I

11:09

relapsed it probably would be able

11:11

to cure me but I would

11:13

have lifelong disability from the treatment

11:15

I'd have to get a bone

11:18

marrow transplant and that's just like

11:20

lifelong like you never recover all

11:22

the way from a bone marrow

11:24

transplant and so like I just

11:26

really don't want that and I

11:28

like really like myself and I

11:30

think it should like be around

11:32

to help with stuff and I'm

11:34

like and if I can just

11:37

like stay in the mindset or

11:39

I'm like okay Like I have

11:41

to take care of me right

11:43

now and I will do all

11:45

the stuff I'm good at but

11:47

like I can't be scared all

11:49

the time all the time right

11:51

yeah and so like I just

11:53

have to there's like a letting

11:56

go almost that's that's it's not

11:58

just like letting go of the

12:00

work it's letting go of the

12:02

like my feeling that if something

12:04

breaks that that's my responsibility and

12:06

if something breaks irreparably that that's

12:08

the end of the world right

12:10

because what's the end of the

12:13

world is Like, you know, I

12:15

don't want to be disabled by

12:17

a bone neurotransplant. I don't want

12:19

to die of cancer. Like, those

12:21

are sort of, like, bigger deals

12:23

to my, like, ability to have,

12:25

I mean, no one, I don't

12:27

need to convince anybody, but I,

12:29

like, do need to convince myself.

12:32

Yeah. And that's the hard part.

12:34

Yeah. have lived your life is

12:36

somewhat frenetically somewhat frenetically and you

12:38

have sought stress in many ways

12:40

now you saw stress for there's

12:42

two things going on right which

12:44

is that you you used to

12:46

not feel stress the way that

12:48

you feel it now before cancer

12:51

you felt stress differently I can

12:53

tell that from a distance yeah

12:55

I have had bad moments and

12:57

hard stressful moments, but I have

12:59

not had any that have felt

13:01

the way that it has felt

13:03

since recovery. Yeah, and it's felt

13:05

that way like pretty often since

13:07

recovery. Yeah. That's the first thing

13:10

I'd say. The second thing I'd

13:12

say is that you're not as

13:14

young as you used to be.

13:16

You're 45 years old. Like you're,

13:18

you know, 10 years from a

13:20

reasonable time at which reasonable people

13:22

retire if they're lucky. Yeah, I

13:24

guess people retire at 55. Do

13:26

they do that? Why would they

13:29

do that? I'm gonna do it.

13:31

So just so you're prepared Just

13:33

so you're prepared that this is

13:35

going to be called dear John

13:37

and Hank for like three years

13:39

And then it's going to be

13:41

called dear Hank That's something to

13:43

talk about my feelings. Yeah, it's

13:45

John's gonna join us for the

13:48

special episode where we talk about

13:50

our feelings. I think both those

13:52

things are. happening at the same

13:54

time. I also think that like

13:56

work as we understand it is

13:58

very big. I mean we're talking

14:00

about not just like the work

14:02

of of trying to support these

14:04

two different businesses that have a

14:07

total of 120 or 130 employees.

14:09

We're also talking about work in

14:11

the sense of trying to support

14:13

Nerd Fiteria, the community that actually

14:15

matters the most to us, probably

14:17

out of everything that we do,

14:19

and that enables so much of

14:21

what we do. And we're talking

14:23

about the work of making podcasts

14:26

and video blogs and writing books

14:28

and doing the things that we

14:30

do, you know, to support our

14:32

families. And we're talking about, when

14:34

we talk about work, we're also

14:36

talking about, like, a lot of

14:38

how we live our lives, because

14:40

that's just not that separate from

14:42

work. Like, when people ask me,

14:45

how many hours a week do

14:47

you work? I'm like, I don't

14:49

even know how to answer that

14:51

question, because I don't know where

14:53

the line is. Oh, absolutely. Well,

14:55

I also really enjoy a lot

14:57

of it. Like, yeah, if you're

14:59

sitting in bed like doing research

15:01

on how viruses first evolved, does

15:04

that work? Is that just my

15:06

interest? I would be doing that

15:08

anyway. I'm interested in that regardless.

15:10

I do think it's interesting, by

15:12

the way, that DNA viruses evolved

15:14

separately from RNA viruses and the

15:16

DNA viruses, if I'm not mistaken,

15:18

from what I read that you

15:20

wrote, that DNA viruses chose to

15:23

become less complex. They chose to

15:25

abandon life as we know it

15:27

and become viruses. Now I know

15:29

you're going to say they didn't

15:31

choose it, John. It just happened

15:33

because of evolutionary imperative, John. But

15:35

they chose it. They were like,

15:37

I don't like the complexity of

15:39

my bacteriological life. I will become

15:42

a virus. Yeah, you know, I

15:44

had the thought this morning. And

15:46

I will become literally less alive.

15:48

This is just a hypothesis that

15:50

I don't know if anyone has

15:52

had. And there isn't. any research

15:54

on it, whether or not DNA

15:56

virus might be descended from a

15:59

contagious cancer because of course I'm

16:01

reading this cancer book and so

16:03

I'm thinking all about cancer in

16:05

every single frame that every time

16:07

anything comes up I'm like everything

16:09

is cancer could it have started

16:11

out could have could a virus

16:13

have started out as a contagious

16:15

cancer and then sort of like

16:18

slowly but probably not by the

16:20

way I don't think that this

16:22

this is not there are several

16:24

hypotheses of how viruses first evolved

16:26

And one of them is that

16:28

they were like an early form

16:30

of life that is just like

16:32

a different piece on the tree

16:34

of life and now like you

16:37

can argue about whether viruses are

16:39

alive or not. And but the

16:41

leading theory I think is that

16:43

it's just sort of a piece

16:45

of our genomes or our DNA

16:47

or RNA that sort of like

16:49

got out and figured out how

16:51

to replicate itself. But the thing

16:53

about contagious cancers is that they

16:56

start out with the genome of

16:58

the organism that they first arose

17:00

in, and then they slowly shed

17:02

a tremendous amount of, because they

17:04

don't need, you know, if it

17:06

evolves from a dog, it doesn't

17:08

need to like have like fur

17:10

genes. It just needs to have

17:12

like replicate genes and survive genes

17:15

and like recruit blood vessel genes.

17:17

But it, so probably that like,

17:19

I mean, that's the stuff. I'll.

17:21

I will always do that work,

17:23

and I'm so happy to do

17:25

it. Right. Well, and maybe this

17:27

is what it's about in the

17:29

end, Hank, is that we've set

17:31

up a lot of complicated systems

17:34

and processes that enable not just

17:36

us to do that work, but

17:38

lots of other people to also

17:40

do similar work. Right, and to

17:42

have much bigger impact than we

17:44

do alone. Absolutely, right? Like good

17:46

store has raised more money for

17:48

partners in health than we could

17:50

ever raise a loan complexly and

17:53

crash course have done much more

17:55

for education than we could ever

17:57

do a loan. Like all of

17:59

that stuff is true. At the

18:01

same time, all that stuff is...

18:03

to your stress and I'm I'm

18:05

concerned about it and

18:07

so I think that

18:10

I I think that

18:13

2025 should be

18:15

the year of of

18:18

2020 less. 2020

18:20

alive. 2020 alive. 2020.

18:22

2020. I mean, I'm probably

18:24

going to hit that, yeah?

18:26

Okay, attempt to. 2020, 2020

18:29

ties. 2025? All right. 2020

18:31

less, 2020 ties. Those are

18:33

the, that's it. Those are

18:35

our goals, Ed. Oh, oh,

18:37

oh, oh, 2020 lives. It's

18:39

the year where we get that

18:41

shape. It is the year where I'm

18:44

going to be in front of

18:46

more people than I've been

18:48

in front of in many,

18:50

many, many years, because I

18:52

will be traveling nonstop. I

18:54

have a year. In fact, when this

18:56

podcast comes out, I will have announced

18:59

my tour for Everything is Tuberculosis, which

19:01

has taken me all over the United States.

19:03

You don't say that you will have, you can

19:05

do it now. All right, hold on, hold on.

19:07

This question comes from, hey, John, where

19:10

are you going to go on tour

19:12

during your Everything is Tuberculosis tour that

19:14

you were doing, unfortunately, without me, because

19:16

I got an amazing opportunity that I cannot

19:18

yet talk about. I'm going to be

19:21

in Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm going

19:23

to be in Cambridge, Massachusetts,

19:25

in New York, New York,

19:27

in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in Washington,

19:29

District of Columbia, in Atlanta,

19:31

Georgia, Iowa, City, Iowa, in

19:34

St. Louis, Missouri, in lovely

19:36

Dallas, Texas, Houston, Texas, Boulder,

19:38

Colorado, San Mateo, California,

19:40

and Seattle, Washington, state. And then

19:42

you're not doing anything in California?

19:45

Brave. I said San Mateo, California.

19:47

I'm not doing anything in Los

19:49

Angeles. They don't care about TV

19:51

either. They don't care. I thought you said TV

19:53

and I was like, they care very much about

19:56

TV. They care a lot about TV. No, I

19:58

don't know why I'm not going to LA this.

20:00

except that that is plenty, that

20:02

is so many stops. LA is

20:04

far away and they got a

20:06

lot of me in the last

20:08

couple years, so. Yeah, that's true.

20:11

I am going, I will be

20:13

doing many more events than just

20:15

these events, in fact. I will

20:17

be doing, well, I will be

20:19

visiting Harvard, I will be visiting

20:21

lots of Colby College in Maine,

20:23

I'm going all over the place,

20:25

Hank. It's a, it's a non-stop

20:28

adventure. I, so 2020 live for

20:30

John. 2020 Live, baby. Yeah. 2020

20:32

in person. 2020 in person. 2020

20:34

in person. Yeah, I'm pretty nervous

20:36

about all this travel. Speaking of

20:38

my resolutions and my anxieties, not

20:40

as intense as your anxieties, I

20:43

mean, but I don't know. I

20:45

haven't been very well. Ed, the

20:47

truth is we're not doing great.

20:49

I don't know. It's very hard

20:51

for me to not laugh because

20:53

I just am trying to shed

20:55

it, but it is true. It's

20:58

true. It's true and it's funny.

21:00

It can be both. It's allowed

21:02

to be both. When I tell

21:04

Ed I'm not doing great, it's

21:06

allowed to be both. Yeah, okay.

21:08

Oh, Ed. I don't know how

21:10

to do more while also retaining

21:13

one sanity. I'll be honest with

21:15

you. Yeah, well, here's what I'll

21:17

say also is that I, this

21:19

is my resolution, I talked about

21:21

in my Vauperless video. is that

21:23

I want to spend more time

21:25

with people who I have deeper

21:28

relationships with and less time with

21:30

people who I have weird sort

21:32

of internet mediated two way, but

21:34

you know, through screen relationships with.

21:36

Sure. Not that I don't like

21:38

sort of like those relationships and

21:40

find them valuable, but I, There's

21:43

just a lot of people who

21:45

I like actually, who I really

21:47

like, really like me, who I

21:49

think trust that, like, who like

21:51

get me in a different way.

21:53

And it's not about my work.

21:55

Yeah, no, I mean, I think

21:58

I had to grapple with this.

22:00

You're becoming the green brother to

22:02

bait, right? Like Mark Cuban just

22:04

baited you on Blue Sky, which

22:06

is an achievement for anybody. Mildly.

22:08

Mild, mildly. Mild baiting, but like

22:10

he went out of his way

22:13

to type your username into Blue

22:15

Sky. It's weird. He doesn't even

22:17

follow me. No, but he thinks

22:19

about you apparently and and that's

22:21

who you're becoming right like you're

22:23

becoming and I was that I

22:25

know what that's like because I

22:28

was that brother and I got

22:30

baited and I you know had

22:32

to use the social internet with

22:34

a Certain amount of armor on

22:36

and it's exhausting and I feel

22:38

like that like to a lesser

22:40

extent so far and hopefully it'll

22:43

stay that way, but like you're

22:45

becoming that, like you're becoming, you

22:47

know, somebody that people both like

22:49

look up to and admire and

22:51

when lots of people look up

22:53

to you and admire you, you

22:55

also become sort of a punching

22:57

bag for another group of people.

23:00

And that's exhausting. It's exhausting both

23:02

to be like wrongly imagined as

23:04

more than human as like some

23:06

great, you know, 10 out of

23:08

10 human being being. And it's

23:10

exhausting to be treated and imagined

23:12

as trash. Like they're both exhausting.

23:15

And so I think it's a

23:17

great idea to spend more time

23:19

with people who know you in

23:21

real life and know you as

23:23

who you are and spend less

23:25

time engaging. Right, what is why

23:27

me and my buddy Mark Cuban

23:30

are going to go to basketball

23:32

games together. I think that'd be

23:34

great. I think it'd be great.

23:36

I'm going to Dallas, so hopefully

23:38

Mark Cuban will be there in

23:40

the audience for everything as tuberculosis.

23:42

I'd love to get him. I

23:45

don't see why not. He's showing

23:47

up in my mentions. I'd love

23:49

to get you an advanced readers

23:51

copy of everything as tuberculosis. I

23:53

think it'll really open your eyes.

23:55

I do. I have his email

23:57

address, but so does everyone. Yeah,

24:00

I'm not going to email him.

24:02

That's not a good use of

24:04

my one wild and precious life.

24:06

Yeah, no, I agree. But if

24:08

he would like to do tuberculosis

24:10

advocacy work, we can point him

24:12

in many of the right directions.

24:15

We can. We can. I just

24:17

met while I was sledding, I

24:19

met a couple of people who

24:21

just arrived back in America from

24:23

working in Lesotho on tuberculosis stuff.

24:25

And I was like, remember there.

24:27

Tells me all about Lesotho all

24:30

the time. Yeah. It's the world

24:32

capital of tuberculosis unfortunately. I will

24:34

say it's also one of the

24:36

world capitals of innovation around tuberculosis.

24:38

Like the head of PAH Wissutu

24:40

has launched this incredible app that

24:42

is like a track is tracking

24:45

software and also like that is

24:47

able to, you know, every case

24:49

of TB that's identified, it's able

24:51

to keep track of that person

24:53

and like, I mean, not like

24:55

literally like with geolocators, but like,

24:57

make sure that they're able to,

25:00

you know, take their medicine and

25:02

like have the support that they

25:04

need, that their close contacts were

25:06

offered preventative care, all that stuff.

25:08

And it's incredible. It's really... changing

25:10

what's possible in TB diagnosis. And

25:12

so I don't know, it's yes,

25:15

it's the center of tuberculosis suffering

25:17

in the world, but it's also

25:19

this one of the centers of

25:21

innovation around TB, which is often

25:23

the case. And I think that

25:25

part of the story sometimes gets

25:27

ignored. That's really putting it on

25:30

its head for me. Thank you.

25:32

20 simplified. 20 simplified 20 simplified

25:34

Yes I was also thinking maybe

25:37

like 2020 dive a year where

25:39

I try to go to more

25:41

dive bars. Oh, yeah Like real-life

25:44

interactions when drinking instead of just

25:46

drinking and looking at the internet.

25:48

Does that sound healthy? Not according

25:50

to the surgeon general this next

25:53

question comes from Missy who writes

25:55

dear John and Hank. Why are

25:57

my hands clapier when they're freshly

26:00

lotion than when they're dry. That

26:02

is to say the clap is

26:04

louder and crisper than drier hands

26:07

would produce. Hank, I wanted to

26:09

read this question because I knew

26:11

that we were going to forget

26:13

to clap at the beginning of

26:16

the podcast so they can sink

26:18

the audio. So we got a

26:20

clap now. Okay. And you'll notice

26:23

that dry hand clap. It's terrible.

26:25

Terrible. Terrack a certain... Let's do

26:27

it again. No. No, it's okay.

26:30

They're dry. They're real dry right

26:32

now. I got a... I put

26:34

some capstick on them. One of

26:36

the reasons mine sounded okay was

26:39

because my hands are sweaty, because

26:41

my palms are sweaty, because we've

26:43

been talking real talk, and that

26:46

always makes me anxious. Nervous. Yeah.

26:48

You know, the food. 20 jump,

26:50

jive, and whale, Sky and Swing

26:53

is back. I like it. I

26:55

like, you've been predicting a resurgence

26:57

of Sky over and over again

26:59

in the last few weeks. You've

27:02

mentioned this to me like two

27:04

or four separate times. I predicted

27:06

a resurgence in Sky in 2016.

27:09

So I wouldn't go with my

27:11

thoughts on this. It's like how

27:13

I've predicted a recession every year

27:16

for the last 14 years. I

27:18

mean, that's, that's, it's gotta happen

27:20

eventually, right. No, I mean, apparently

27:23

not. I'm going to stop predicting

27:25

a recession as of right now.

27:27

2020, John no longer predicts a

27:29

recession. No, that's going to go

27:32

great. It's going to go great.

27:34

We have such a great track

27:36

record of predicting large geopolitical events

27:39

accurately on this podcast. I know,

27:41

I know, like when we said

27:43

that out of all the future

27:46

outcomes in the history of the

27:48

world, there were only two in

27:50

which Donald Trump becomes the Republican

27:52

nominee for president. Yeah, no, it's

27:55

embarrassing. But really for America rather

27:57

than for us. I think it's

27:59

embarrassing the one time when like

28:02

in February of 2020 and this

28:04

wasn't on the regular podcast I

28:06

think this was on this weekend

28:09

stuff I said that my biggest

28:11

concern at the moment was that

28:13

this whole coronavirus thing might affect

28:15

Liverpool's ability to win the title

28:18

I do yeah that was that

28:20

turns out to have been a

28:22

little off-toned mm-hmm yeah I was

28:25

underestimating the size of the catastrophe

28:27

Hank why are hands clapier when

28:29

they're freshly lotioned? There's gotta be

28:32

I think I don't, well here's

28:34

the situation, I don't actually know

28:36

why when you bring your hands

28:38

together and quickly they make a

28:41

noise. Why does clapping happen? Why

28:43

does, so we have to start

28:45

there, why does clapping happen? Because

28:48

I just brought my hands together

28:50

and nothing happened. Faster. And then

28:52

it's a totally different sound if

28:55

I clasped my hands as if

28:57

I'm holding my hands instead of

28:59

just do prayer hands. Yeah. Why

29:02

is all of this happening? I

29:04

assume it's because air is being

29:06

quickly forced. I don't know. Yeah,

29:08

how is that being worked? I

29:11

don't actually know. So. It sounds

29:13

like clapping. What I'm trying to

29:15

understand is what's physically happening. What's

29:18

physically happening? It's true if I

29:20

hit my, if I hit my

29:22

face too. Like this is the

29:25

sound of me smashing my face.

29:27

Oh sure, sure, sure, yeah. It

29:29

happens when you hit anything. It

29:31

happens when you hit a table,

29:34

not just when you hit skin.

29:36

So it's got nothing to do

29:38

with skin. What it's got to

29:41

do is something with the force.

29:43

It's force. It's force equaling mass

29:45

times acceleration acceleration acceleration acceleration. Is

29:48

it a friction with a friction

29:50

thing? And I don't actually know

29:52

why the sound wave gets produced

29:54

though. Hank and I were never

29:57

great at physics. No, waves are

29:59

not. Not my favorite, honestly.

30:01

I don't love a wave. Optics and-

30:03

I get stressed out by the fact

30:05

that the waves are going in all

30:08

directions. Yeah. Like that means that

30:10

they're potentially trying to go through

30:12

me. I don't like sound waves trying

30:14

to go through me. That's none of

30:16

their business. What's going on inside of

30:19

me? Well, they're bouncing off. And they

30:21

do a little bit of- A little

30:23

bit of them is getting a little

30:25

bit inside of me. Yeah, you could

30:27

absorb a bit of a sound wave.

30:29

Don't like it. Especially in your years.

30:31

Otherwise you wouldn't be able to

30:34

do all the listening. I guess I

30:36

don't mind that part. What I don't

30:38

like is the idea that it's getting

30:40

into my internal organs. I don't like

30:43

anything that gets into my torso, my

30:45

belly region. That's what stresses me out.

30:47

Just above my hips, but below my

30:49

ribs. That part feels very vulnerable. It

30:52

is. Sound waves and other. Yeah. Imagine

30:54

it just like the... Whatever's making

30:56

the sound so like me maybe

30:58

just giving you a belly slaps?

31:00

I don't like I don't like

31:02

belly slap I don't like any

31:05

form of belly touches. No, it's

31:07

like a it's like a good

31:09

belly touch Real like actual touching

31:11

of your belly go blah blah

31:13

blah blah blah. Missy in our

31:15

next episode we are gonna

31:17

go so deep into how

31:19

clapping works, you won't even

31:21

believe it, but we need

31:24

to boke to do some

31:26

research for us. Look at

31:28

this and said, I just don't

31:30

know what to say, I'm

31:33

struggling to find a good

31:35

answer. I assume it's something

31:37

about acoustics in

31:39

water. See? It feels like

31:41

there's less ways to

31:43

escape for the air. Your

31:46

hands are more. powerful.

31:48

When your hands are wet or

31:50

lotioned up, I think they

31:52

have fewer gaps and that

31:54

traps air more. But again,

31:56

I don't know why clapping

31:58

makes a noise at all. Yeah. when one

32:00

thing runs into another thing it makes

32:02

a noise. Like if if like a

32:04

baseball bat hits a fence post I

32:06

get why that makes a noise because

32:09

the metal or the wood is vibrating

32:11

but I don't feel like my hands

32:13

are vibrating. They are though I

32:15

can feel it when I clap.

32:17

Come on everybody little clap. Come

32:20

on everybody can give a little

32:22

clap. You're kind of dressed like

32:24

Tommy Shrigley right now. Thanks I

32:26

appreciate that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I

32:28

feel like Tommy Stragley. Sometimes I like to invest $100,000

32:31

in turning it into $16,000. It's one of my favorite

32:33

jokes, for those of you who don't know we're referencing

32:35

a show on dropout. And it's one of my favorite

32:37

jokes of all time, is a guy really confidently saying,

32:39

I took that $100,000, I invested it, and I turned

32:41

it into $16,000. I can't even say it without laughing.

32:43

It's such a perfect joke, because I'm so tired of

32:45

hearing people saying, like, all I needed was $100,000, head

32:47

start, and then I took that 100,000, $100 dollars, I

32:49

invested it, and I invested it, and I became, and

32:51

I became, and I became a, and I became a,

32:53

and I became a, and I became, and I became,

32:55

and I became, and I became, and became, and became,

32:57

and became, and became, and became, and became, and

32:59

became, and became, and became, and became, and

33:01

became, and became, and became, and I became,

33:03

and I became, and I became, and I

33:06

became, and, Like he didn't know where he

33:08

was going when he started. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

33:10

which is magical. That's something I love about

33:12

improv comedy is the idea of like you

33:14

get to witness. You just start a thing.

33:16

Yeah, you put your foot out over the

33:19

cliff and hope that there's a break under

33:21

there. Actually, that is my advice

33:23

to Ed is just start. Like

33:25

sometimes you just need to start. And

33:27

I've been thinking about that because

33:29

like I've been in planning mode.

33:32

around everything is tuberculosis because

33:34

the book's coming out and

33:36

that means planning a book

33:38

tour and planning all this other

33:41

stuff and I just want to

33:43

start. Sometimes you just got to

33:45

start. You just got to go.

33:47

Yeah, I mean that's a lot

33:49

of a lot of stress I

33:51

have is because things like when

33:53

things like decisions can't get made

33:55

like everything slow down and you

33:57

can't just start a thing. Right.

34:00

everybody struggles with that. It's no

34:02

fun for anybody. Yeah. But in

34:04

my personal life, I could totally

34:06

do that. But I can't. I

34:08

also, I personally can't start. Because

34:10

when would that fit in? Yeah.

34:12

You're struggling right now. I can't

34:14

create a new obligation. You know?

34:16

No. Not a new permanent obligation.

34:18

You can maybe create a new

34:21

short-term obligation. Yeah. Which reminds me

34:23

that today's podcast is brought to

34:25

you by long-term ongoing obligations. Long-term

34:27

ongoing obligations, like this podcast. Yeah,

34:29

which I'm glad to have this

34:31

one, but I don't need a

34:33

new one. This podcast is also

34:35

brought to you by Tommy Shrigley.

34:37

Tommy Shrigley. Get that protein powder,

34:39

boy. We're going to sell so

34:42

many dropout subscriptions. I feel bad

34:44

now. And this broadcast is also

34:46

brought to you by cancer treatment.

34:48

But then you can go watch

34:50

my comedy special. You can watch

34:52

chemistry because it's very important people

34:54

and you can watch me talk

34:56

about cancer for an hour. Today's

34:58

podcast is also of course brought

35:00

to you by sound waves. Sound

35:03

waves, they're tickling your belly. I

35:05

feel bad now. And this broadcast

35:07

is also brought to you by

35:09

cancer treatment. Without it, we'd be

35:11

in a different situation. We would

35:13

be. Probably not be making the

35:15

pod. I don't know, man. I'd

35:17

do it up until the end.

35:19

I know you would, but I

35:21

would insist upon having private conversations

35:24

that we record and release later.

35:26

Oh, how posthumous podcasts. Yeah. Yeah.

35:28

2020 not alive. Don't love it.

35:30

It's so dark in here. It's

35:32

hard to see right now. 2020

35:34

thrive. 2020 thrive. Yeah. 20 simplify.

35:36

2020. simplify is the one. 20

35:38

Simplify is the one. All right.

35:40

Before we get to the all-important

35:42

news from Mars and A F

35:45

C Wimbledon, Hank, we need to

35:47

read this email from Alex who

35:49

writes, Dear John and Hank, Curiosity

35:51

Science Team Collaborator here, Hank, we

35:53

always have to remember that people

35:55

from NASA do listen to this

35:57

podcast. And I know. And I

35:59

have to remember that people from

36:01

A F C Wimbledon also listen

36:03

to this podcast, and they listen

36:06

to it differently from how most

36:08

people listen to it. This person

36:10

Alex didn't but sometimes like somebody

36:12

will reach out to me from

36:14

AFC Wimbledon and be like listen

36:16

okay we make substitutions when we

36:18

think it's the right time to

36:20

make substitutions and we're doing our

36:22

best. Oh God I just like

36:24

I wish we could all remember

36:27

that that no one is actually

36:29

trying to talk to people when

36:31

they talk to people you know

36:33

like oftentimes I get I see

36:35

like to see something on the

36:37

internet about me and I'm like

36:39

they don't want me to see

36:41

that. That's not what they're trying

36:43

to do. They are not inviting

36:45

me into this space. But the

36:48

weird thing is they tag you

36:50

and then when you reply they're

36:52

like, what? You weren't invited and

36:54

I was like, well then don't

36:56

tag me. This person is lovely.

36:58

This is nothing to do with

37:00

getting baited on the internet. It

37:02

is always very exciting when you

37:04

mention something that curiosity has done

37:06

in Mars News because one curiosity

37:09

sometimes feels like the forgotten child

37:11

and two, it's fun to be

37:13

more. Like, oh, I remember when

37:15

we did that observation. So to

37:17

clarify, Hank, it was curiosity that's

37:19

been finding all the elemental sulfur,

37:21

including that time when we drove

37:23

over that rock, as well as

37:25

other sulfate minerals. I should mention

37:27

now that I'm not a geologist.

37:30

I'm on the environmental science team.

37:32

I don't actually know as much

37:34

about what Percy is up to

37:36

with regard to mineralogy, but. That

37:38

was a curiosity mission. I'd also

37:40

like to fulfill the email contract

37:42

and request some dubious advice. I'm

37:44

in the latter half of my

37:46

PhD and I had to take

37:48

a course for the first time

37:51

since basically 2019. And in the

37:53

course I discovered that I'm still,

37:55

I feel absolutely terrible about myself

37:57

when I get a bad grade.

37:59

I know there are things I'm

38:01

good at and I know the

38:03

whole concept of tests and grades

38:05

is stupid, but I still somehow

38:07

in the year of our award

38:09

2024 feel worthless when I fail

38:12

a midterm, which is a very

38:14

undergrad feeling. How long am I going

38:16

to have to deal with this forever, Alex?

38:18

There will be things that you can't even

38:20

get a grade on that you will give yourself

38:23

a bad grade on. Yeah. I don't know

38:25

why. I mean, I hope that you find

38:27

a different, a different path than that. Oh

38:29

no. Oh no, I give myself grades

38:31

all the time and I

38:33

fail, I get D's constantly.

38:36

Yeah. I'm a worse student

38:39

way. I was a bad

38:41

student in in high school

38:43

and college. I am

38:45

a much worse student in

38:47

adulthood. Yeah. Yeah. I don't

38:49

think you are, but

38:52

I'm thinking about myself

38:54

and like I often

38:56

times I'm like boy. There had

38:58

to have been a better way to do that.

39:00

I think because I think of you

39:02

as a straight-day student and in

39:05

in adulthood and like I'm always

39:07

like I'm always talking to my

39:09

therapist about how I'm a low-functioning

39:11

person and I just have to

39:13

accept that and accept that I

39:16

can't do everything my brother can

39:18

do. Oh my god. All right.

39:20

Let's think that it's only Ed

39:22

who thinks that you're an overachiever.

39:25

Oh God, I, um... You even

39:27

speed ran cancer. I did do

39:29

it pretty quick. Yeah,

39:31

I got a lot of you. Not

39:33

quick enough. No, I think

39:35

that, I think that it

39:38

was, it's about as, it's

39:40

about as quick as chemo

39:42

can go though. Yeah, so that's

39:44

great. All right, Hank, what's

39:47

the news from Mars? Make

39:49

it about Curiosity,

39:52

for Alex's sake. I

39:54

can't quite. I wasn't

39:56

ready for that. Maybe

39:58

next time. This perseverance

40:00

though, oh boy, oh Alex, I'm

40:02

sorry. Oh God. Well, it isn't,

40:05

so it's not really perseverance news,

40:07

but the goal, there was a

40:09

goal that perseverance would bottle up

40:11

all of these samples and then

40:13

we'd send a sample return mission

40:15

to pick them up and bring

40:18

them back home so that we

40:20

could have some pieces of Mars

40:22

here on Earth that had never

40:24

passed through the atmosphere. as a

40:26

meteorite. So we do have pieces

40:28

of Mars here on Earth, but

40:31

they've all gone through the atmosphere

40:33

at various times and burned up

40:35

a little bit. And that makes

40:37

them less useful for doing science

40:39

too. And we, so we'd love

40:41

to bring these back in a

40:44

sample return mission, and Mars had

40:46

planned the sample return mission to

40:48

cost like $3 billion, which sort

40:50

of an acceptively large number, but

40:52

you know, something we could do.

40:54

But then... We hit a rough

40:57

spot when some other reports found

40:59

that the project was more complicated

41:01

than we thought it was going

41:03

to cost like $11 billion, which

41:05

as you might know is a

41:07

lot more than $3 billion more.

41:10

Yeah, it's like it's more than

41:12

three times more. Almost four times

41:14

as much money. Yeah. And then

41:16

one report said that even if

41:18

we did do it, it would

41:20

be like 2040 until the samples

41:23

were back on Earth. And that

41:25

is also a long time from

41:27

now. So since those reports, people

41:29

have been wondering what we're going

41:31

to do about that, and there

41:34

is tomorrow as we're recording this,

41:36

but it will already have happened

41:38

when the podcast comes out, there

41:40

will be a press conference where

41:42

we'll try and hopefully resolve this.

41:44

And they're going to talk about

41:47

how, like, they're going to update

41:49

basically their sample return project and

41:51

figure out what it might. look

41:53

like and how they might do

41:55

it. Meanwhile, China is planning to

41:57

launch its own sample return mission

42:00

in 2028 with the gold to

42:02

return samples in 2031. So that

42:04

would be embarrassing. Well, can't they

42:06

just pick up? our samples? I

42:08

mean is there some reason other

42:10

than geopolitics? Probably. I mean not

42:13

to dismiss geopolitics out of hand

42:15

I understand that that's real but

42:17

yeah well so so perseverance has

42:19

left the vials all like sort

42:21

of in a line over a

42:23

long stretch of land and I

42:26

don't actually know this but my

42:28

guess is that the the sample

42:30

return mission that China is planning

42:32

just sort of grabs them from

42:34

one place and takes back off.

42:36

Quite quite. I mean, it would

42:39

definitely be a land and take

42:41

off immediately if it was that

42:43

fast. Okay. But it's also like

42:45

very strange because they sort of

42:47

planned this perseverance dropping tubes thing

42:49

without having planned how they're actually

42:52

going to pick them up and

42:54

get them home. And there's got

42:56

to be a way, but hopefully.

42:58

When you're listening to this, you

43:00

can Google it and see what

43:02

NASA said. All right. Well, the

43:05

news from AFC Wimbledon is really

43:07

good. AFC Wimbledon had their festive

43:09

holiday fixtures, which is where you

43:11

play like three games in about

43:13

seven or eight days, and they

43:15

tied one game and one both

43:18

of the other ones, putting them

43:20

up briefly into second place in

43:22

the league two table, which is

43:24

an automatic promotion spot. But then,

43:26

their last game of the festive

43:29

fixture period was supposed to be

43:31

yesterday, January 5th, but unfortunately, our

43:33

old friend Frozen Pitch came to

43:35

town. That's right, Hank. just as

43:37

water logged pitch has been AFC

43:39

Wimbledon's constant nemesis since earlier in

43:42

the year when there was a

43:44

flooding at Plow Lane, frozen pitch

43:46

came home to Roost in the

43:48

form of Fleetwood FC's pitch becoming

43:50

frozen, thereby making it impossible to

43:52

play the game. So now we

43:55

are in fifth place, but only

43:57

because we've played one fewer game

43:59

than all of our competitors. So,

44:01

A.F.C. Wimbledon look like they might

44:03

have a special season. And I'm

44:05

pretty excited about that. And

44:07

I think next week or

44:10

the week after, I'll get

44:12

to make another exciting announcement

44:14

about the rest of AFC

44:16

Wimbledon season. But we're not

44:18

quite there yet. I will

44:20

remind you, however, that the

44:22

January transfer window is open,

44:24

which means new players can

44:26

sign for AFC Wimbledon only

44:28

during this month of January.

44:30

But usually that's bad, right?

44:32

For AFC Wimbledon. But you're telling

44:34

me that might not be the

44:36

case. What if we didn't lose

44:39

all of our best players?

44:41

How would that be? It might

44:43

be fun. It might mean that

44:45

in the second half of the

44:47

year we're not bad. But don't

44:49

all the other clubs want to

44:51

recruit all your good players?

44:54

Well. Certainly. Yes. But

44:56

we have good solid contracts.

44:58

We've got a great group

45:00

of guys. And you're doing

45:02

well. So maybe they just

45:04

want to be on a

45:07

team that's doing well. Maybe instead

45:09

of signing for a third tier

45:11

English soccer team. Oh, so those

45:13

players are thinking. Yeah, we hang

45:16

around. Instead of moving up by

45:18

changing teams, I just move up

45:20

with this team. Oh, wow. That's

45:23

a different vibe. Different

45:25

vibe. Different vibe. Different

45:27

vibe. That's very exciting. Well, it's

45:29

been an exciting season so far,

45:32

and we wait to see what

45:34

happens in the second half. That's

45:36

what we'll do. Hank, it's a pleasure to

45:38

pod with you. Thank you for making the

45:40

time. I know it's not easy. Well, it's

45:42

my favorite. I love it, and I'm glad

45:44

to be friends with you. Same. I mean,

45:46

I don't really think of us as friends,

45:48

but same. Well, I was thinking I want

45:50

to spend more time with my friends. Oh,

45:52

okay, yeah, then I'll take it, then I'll

45:54

take it. I once said to Alice that

45:56

we were friends and she said, we're not

45:58

friends. Father and daughter. to a completely different

46:01

relationship. Oh, man, man, and I

46:03

are friends to the point where like

46:05

need to to maybe be a little less. I a

46:07

little less with Alice. Yeah, to used to friends

46:09

with Alice, but you know, she's moved know, would never

46:11

on. I would never go to

46:13

an Olivia Rodrigo concert with someone

46:15

I'm not friends with. I'm sorry. Oh

46:17

no, Oh, no, that I feel the same way.

46:19

feel the same way. And I

46:21

really enjoyed the Olivia Rodrigo concert.

46:23

It was super fun. fun. John, this this

46:25

podcast is edited by Linus It's mixed

46:27

by mixed by Medic. Our Our communications

46:29

coordinator is is Brooke It's produced by produced

46:31

by Rosiana Hall, West. Our executive producer

46:33

is Seth Radley. Our editorial assistant

46:35

is editorial assistant The music you're hearing

46:37

now and at the beginning the

46:39

podcast is by now, and at beginning as

46:41

they say in our by the great gunarola. And

46:43

as forget to be awesome. Don't forget to

46:45

be awesome.