0:04

Welcome to Dear Prudence. I am

0:06

your guest prudence, Kristen Meinser. I

0:08

host a couple of other podcasts,

0:10

including By the Book and How

0:12

to be Fine. Be sure to

0:14

check those out if you love

0:16

self-help books. Hate self-help books, spoiler

0:18

I kind of do, or want

0:21

advice on how to be okayish

0:23

rather than perfect. Today we'll be

0:25

answering questions about being honest with

0:27

a friend, about their mental health,

0:29

how to politely turn down an

0:31

offer of friendship. and getting family

0:33

to understand and respect boundaries during

0:35

a divorce. I am so excited

0:37

about today's guest. Here to join

0:39

us is Psychotherapist, best-selling author, ask

0:42

the therapist columnist for the New

0:44

York Times and dear Prudy Fave,

0:46

Lori Gottlieb, Lori. Oh my gosh,

0:48

welcome back to the show. We're

0:50

so thrilled to have you here

0:52

today. Well, thank you so much

0:54

for having me. Well, you may

0:56

know Lori. We always start off

0:59

by asking our guests to offer

1:01

a bit of unsolicited advice not

1:03

to do with any letter coming

1:05

in, just a little something that

1:07

you think would help people's wives

1:09

be a little bit better if they

1:11

tried it right now. I would say the

1:13

best piece of unsolicited advice is to

1:15

be kind to oneself. And that

1:18

means ask yourself when you hear that

1:20

voice in your head that's going 24

1:22

7. Is it kind? Is it true?

1:24

Is it useful? And if it doesn't

1:26

meet those criteria. Try being a little

1:29

bit kinder to yourself. Oh, that is

1:31

something we can all do. Is it kind?

1:33

Is it true? Is it useful? I feel

1:35

like these are things that little

1:37

kids might know and kindergarten even,

1:39

you know, like that's not very

1:41

nice or that's just not true,

1:43

but as adults we might forget

1:45

that we're worthy of those questions

1:48

too and we can treat ourselves

1:50

with that kindness. Yes,

1:52

absolutely. Oh, that's fantastic. Thank you

1:54

so much for that, Lori. Lori,

1:56

we have lots more wisdom. You're

1:58

going to share with us in

2:01

just a moment. But first we

2:03

have to take a very quick

2:05

break. Stay with us listeners. We'll

2:07

be right back with the great

2:09

Lori Gottlieb. Hi everyone. We are

2:12

back. You're listening to Dear Prudence.

2:14

I'm Kristen Meinser and I'm here

2:16

with psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb. Let's get

2:19

started with our first letter of

2:21

the day titled Not Mad. just

2:23

frustrated. My partner and I are

2:26

in a group of friends who

2:28

all live in different states. We're

2:30

all in our early 20s and

2:33

don't make a lot of money,

2:35

so we don't see each other

2:38

often, although we video call regularly.

2:40

One of our friends, whom I'll

2:42

call Sam, is suffering from severe

2:45

self-worth and mental health issues. Sam

2:47

is also unemployed and doesn't leave

2:49

the house much, so they're often

2:52

lonely. All of us have independently

2:54

suggested different part-time jobs are ways

2:56

to get Sam out of the

2:59

house, but they always say they

3:01

can't do those things because of

3:03

their mental health or poor finances.

3:06

Sam and I call each other

3:08

semi frequently, and every time I

3:10

ask a question like what's new

3:13

with you or how are your

3:15

holidays, Sam will just reply nothing.

3:17

I'll try to keep the conversation

3:20

going by mentioning things I know

3:22

Sam likes, or what I've been

3:24

doing lately, but Sam almost always

3:27

latches on to a very minor

3:29

point in what I'm saying and

3:32

begins arguing with me. These arguments

3:34

are never serious, but it's taxing

3:36

to argue with Sam whenever we

3:39

call, and I often hang up

3:41

the phone feeling frustrated and exhausted.

3:44

Before all of this, Sam would frequently

3:46

ask me if they had done something

3:49

wrong and claim that our whole friend

3:51

group wants to stop talking to them

3:53

because they are, quote, so annoying. This

3:56

isn't true, but the constant doubt is

3:58

putting strain on our relationship. to be

4:00

honest with Sam about how I feel,

4:03

but I'm worried that if I try

4:05

to bring up any issues with them,

4:07

they'll take it as an affirmation of

4:10

their fears that all of their friends

4:12

secretly hate them. Oh, letter writer. This

4:14

is tough. I think... All of us

4:17

have probably had a friend like Sam,

4:19

or maybe in some cases Ben Sam

4:21

ourselves, maybe going through a bad spot,

4:24

maybe not even realizing how much we're

4:26

maybe repeating ourselves, maybe spiraling, maybe pushing

4:28

away help when it's being offered, and

4:31

so on, can be really tough to

4:33

be that person. It can be really

4:35

tough to be friends with that person.

4:38

Lori, you are nodding as I said

4:40

all this. What are your initial thoughts

4:42

here? And what should our letter writer

4:45

writer do? with their friendship with Sam?

4:47

Well, first of all, our 20s are

4:49

really hard because we don't really have

4:52

a structure to them. We've come out

4:54

of all these years of having a

4:56

structure of being in a community, being

4:59

in school, being in whatever you were

5:01

doing, and then all of a sudden

5:03

you're sort of thrust into adulthood and

5:06

you're trying to figure out what's meaningful

5:08

to you, what direction you want to

5:10

go in. Everybody's doing lots of different

5:13

kinds of things. You don't necessarily have

5:15

that peer group around you in the

5:17

same way. Maybe you're away from family.

5:20

So it's a really hard time and

5:22

a lot of people in their 20s

5:24

struggle. And I think that when the

5:27

letterwriter is saying that Sam is dealing

5:29

with self-worth, I think what they're really

5:31

dealing with is depression. This sounds so

5:34

much like clinical depression where... your mind

5:36

is telling you that nothing's going to

5:38

get better, that you're helpless, that you

5:41

can't change anything, you tend to isolate,

5:43

you really really want things to change,

5:45

but you don't have the motivation or

5:48

the energy to do it. And so...

5:50

it's really hard not only on the

5:52

person who's depressed but on the people

5:55

who care about this person because you

5:57

obviously want to see this person thrive

5:59

and you're seeing them struggle and you

6:02

don't know how to help. So I

6:04

really empathize with both of the people

6:06

in this scenario, sort of the friend

6:09

group and the person who's suffering in

6:11

this way. And I think a conversation

6:13

does need to be had. I agree

6:16

with you. And the conversation might be

6:18

a little bit scary. It's hard to

6:20

say to somebody, I love you and

6:23

I'm really worried about you. But I

6:25

think that's really what needs to happen

6:27

here. Sam, I love you. I worry

6:30

about yourself isolating. I worry about this

6:32

feeling that you can't leave your house.

6:34

That's not healthy. That's not okay. Is

6:37

there something we can do to help

6:39

you get help? Maybe... you know, we

6:41

can help you remotely as friends, or

6:44

you can say one-on-one, I can do

6:46

this. I can try to help you

6:48

try to find a therapist either remotely

6:51

or in your area, something that's sliding

6:53

scale. Is there, you know, a support

6:55

group that we can find for you?

6:58

There are things that maybe I remotely

7:00

can help you track down or provide

7:02

moral support while you start doing that

7:05

research. And I know that can also

7:07

feel a little bit scary to say

7:09

like, hey you need to get help

7:12

but it's not a directive I'm suggesting

7:14

so much as saying I'm really concerned

7:16

and I want you to be okay

7:19

I want you to get all the

7:21

support that you deserve to have right

7:23

and I think that people worry about

7:26

how do I suggest to someone that

7:28

they seek therapy because you don't want

7:30

to pathologize them make them feel like

7:32

something's wrong with them yeah which of

7:35

course therapy is not that but some

7:37

people still carry that stigma around it.

7:39

So I think one way to do

7:42

that is to say, you know, it

7:44

breaks my heart to see you with

7:46

all of your all of the qualities

7:49

that we love about you to you

7:51

know really kind of have a very

7:53

small life right now that we know

7:56

you can have a much bigger life

7:58

yeah and you know we've all had

8:00

times when we've struggled so that it

8:03

normalizes it's not you're the one out

8:05

of our friend group who needs to

8:07

go to therapy it's we've all had

8:10

times when we've struggled when we didn't

8:12

know what to do when we felt

8:14

just so down and unmotivated and scared

8:17

and you know therapy has really helped

8:19

whether this person has been to therapy

8:21

or they know people could say I

8:24

know people who have been to therapy

8:26

and it's really helped them if I

8:28

were in this situation I would 100%

8:31

go to therapy I've been to therapy

8:33

whatever it is just to normalize that

8:35

there's this is this is something that

8:38

you would go to a coach for

8:40

almost anything else that was not your

8:42

area of expertise and you're struggling and

8:45

there's a person who has some expertise

8:47

who might be able to offer you

8:49

something that we who don't have the

8:52

expertise can't offer you and you who

8:54

don't have the expertise don't know how

8:56

to kind of move forward and I

8:59

think it's this this place of not

9:01

pity right so it's not we're so

9:03

worried it's more like We care so

9:06

much about you and see all of

9:08

these great qualities in you. And we

9:10

also see that, you know, you're living

9:13

in this way that doesn't really align

9:15

with that. Yeah. Now that you bring

9:17

it up, I did use that same

9:20

language with a friend not that long

9:22

ago where I said, I love you

9:24

and it breaks my heart not to

9:27

see you. being all the great things

9:29

you are or acknowledging it. Now that

9:31

you bring it up, I'm like, I

9:34

don't think I said I was worried.

9:36

I did say it broke my heart

9:38

though. I use those exact words. And

9:41

I will say in the case of

9:43

this particular friend, I think that shook

9:45

her out of her, you know, inward

9:48

looking. for just a moment to look

9:50

outward and see, oh my God, it's

9:52

breaking Christians' heart the way that this

9:55

is just the same thing over and

9:57

over again. Every time we get on

9:59

the phone, I repeat the same thing

10:02

for an hour straight, and it made

10:04

her pause for a second, and she

10:06

was like, I didn't realize it was

10:09

affecting you. Wow. And it's not even

10:11

about affecting me, it's the fact that

10:13

I love you, and I want you

10:16

to be OK. Yeah, it's the opposite.

10:18

It's that, you know, we really want

10:20

to be here for you. It's not

10:23

nobody cares and they're going to abandon

10:25

me, which is part of the letter

10:27

of, you know, people think I'm annoying.

10:30

It's no, we don't, you know, it's

10:32

not about abandoning you. It's about, we're

10:34

all rallying around you. We're all here.

10:37

So if she can feel like you

10:39

have this whole team that's here for

10:41

you and supporting you and rallying around

10:44

you and we don't have that kind

10:46

of expertise, so part of what we

10:48

want to do as we rally around

10:51

you is to support you in getting

10:53

to the right person who can also

10:55

help you and how can we support

10:58

you? in that. Now, some people when

11:00

they're depressed are what I like to

11:02

call help rejecting complainers, which is not

11:05

a, it's not an insult, it's just

11:07

describing the behavior. And the behavior is

11:09

a lot of people will offer a

11:12

lot of help and they'll say, yeah,

11:14

no, I don't really want to go

11:16

to a therapist or I don't really

11:19

need help or I'm doing fine or

11:21

that won't work because, so they kind

11:23

of want help, but they reject the

11:25

help. And I want the letter writer

11:28

writer writer to know that. You are

11:30

not, this is not your full-time job.

11:32

So you can offer what you can

11:35

offer and people are ready at different

11:37

moments to hear different things. So you

11:39

can keep offering that kind of support,

11:42

but you don't have to listen to

11:44

a long litany of complaints. You don't

11:46

have to try to be the person's

11:49

therapist, but you can be the person

11:51

who when you do talk to this

11:53

person and they say nothing, nothing's happening.

11:56

You can say yeah. I hear that.

11:58

I think it would be so great

12:00

if I could help you or we

12:03

could help you find some support to

12:05

get you out of this rough phase

12:07

because we've all been there. Yeah. Oh,

12:10

such compassionate advice, Lori. Letterwriter, we wish

12:12

you the best. We know you're a

12:14

good friend. We can hear it in

12:17

your letter that you want the best

12:19

for your friend. And you want the

12:21

best for yourself, too, it sounds like,

12:24

too. And you deserve good things. Sam

12:26

deserves good things. So good luck to

12:28

you. All right, our

12:31

next letter is titled, I have

12:33

enough people already, thanks. I'm wondering

12:35

if there's a polite way to

12:37

rebuff someone's offer of friendship. For

12:39

context, I am someone who's preferred

12:41

solitude over socializing for as long

12:43

as I can remember, perhaps due

12:45

to neurodiversity. Now I'm middle-aged, have

12:48

a partner, a son, five siblings,

12:50

and two living parents. In short,

12:52

I already have all the socializing

12:54

I need, and I don't want

12:56

any more. My question is, how

12:58

do I respond when other women

13:00

make overtures of friendship? The last

13:02

thing I want to do is

13:05

go out for coffee or have

13:07

long text or phone conversations. I

13:09

just don't want friends. The little

13:11

time I get to myself is

13:13

precious, and it makes my skin

13:15

crawl to think about someone intruding

13:17

on that. There's no polite way

13:20

I can think of to say,

13:22

no, I don't want to be

13:24

friends. My attempts in the past

13:26

to hold on to my independence

13:28

have hurt feelings and angered people,

13:30

and I don't want that. I'm

13:32

probably too old to not know

13:34

how to do this, but I'd

13:37

be grateful if I could get

13:39

some guidance. How do I signal

13:41

that I'm not interested? Let her

13:43

writer. I love this letter. This

13:45

is actually on my current season

13:47

of How to be Fine, a

13:49

show that I host that is

13:51

all this season about quandaries of

13:54

friendship and loneliness. We've gotten this

13:56

letter from several people. So letterwriter,

13:58

first and foremost, you're not alone.

14:00

We all have only so much

14:02

bandwidth. We only have so many

14:04

hours in the day. We have

14:06

so many people we love already.

14:09

We have work and so on.

14:11

And while some of us want

14:13

as many friends as possible and

14:15

love meeting new people, any chance

14:17

we get, some of us don't.

14:19

And there are, in fact, easy

14:21

ways to say, that's OK. I

14:23

appreciate the invitation, but no. And

14:26

I have some suggestions of ways

14:28

you can do that. But Lori

14:30

I'm going to let you speak

14:32

first before I get into those.

14:34

Yeah, I'm of two minds about

14:36

this letter actually. I think that

14:38

we all have limited time and

14:40

we have to really be intentional

14:43

about how we spend it. And

14:45

at the same time, this letter

14:47

writer is saying, you know, my

14:49

entire universe is my parents, my

14:51

partner, my siblings. And there's nobody

14:53

outside the family. And I think

14:55

that, you know, Sometimes we think

14:58

at that time when everything is

15:00

just converging and we have no

15:02

time for anything else that we

15:04

won't ever need friends. We won't

15:06

ever need someone outside of this

15:08

already overwhelming group of people. But

15:10

one day you might. Your parents

15:12

aren't going to be there forever.

15:15

Who knows what's going to happen

15:17

with your partner? Like life happens.

15:19

Your siblings. And so I think

15:21

it's a little bit dangerous. to

15:23

kind of say, I don't want

15:25

any friends. It's nice to even

15:27

have one friend or a couple

15:29

friends, and then set limits on

15:32

how much you see them, because

15:34

you don't, just because you have

15:36

a friend, doesn't mean, as the

15:38

letter writer said, you have to

15:40

spend hours having coffee and doing

15:42

all that. Having a friend can

15:44

mean so many different things. So

15:47

I think to sort of cut

15:49

off the potential for some kind

15:51

of friendship that works for you.

15:53

with the amount of contact you

15:55

want or don't want might be

15:57

a little bit extreme. Yeah. So

16:00

some thoughts here. I think, first of

16:02

all, that you are allowed to say

16:04

no to people. I know that I

16:06

almost feel like this episode of the

16:09

show, a lot of it's just like

16:11

no is a full sentence, no is

16:13

a complete sentence. And it's okay to

16:15

say no. Or if you want to

16:18

soften it and leave the door open

16:20

because it might be good for you

16:22

to leave the door open, it might

16:24

be good at a certain point to...

16:26

have somebody like this in the future

16:29

who really likes you now and is

16:31

inviting you on. It might be good

16:33

down the road to maybe develop a

16:35

friendship with that person. It's okay to

16:38

say, I am so busy right now.

16:40

I'm having an overwhelming season of life,

16:42

taking care of aging parents, oh, some

16:44

of my parents, you know, all these

16:46

other things that are going on right

16:49

now. But would it be okay if

16:51

down the road I check in with

16:53

you? and it could just be as

16:55

simple as texting them from time to

16:57

time down the road. Again, it doesn't

17:00

have to be hours long coffee, as

17:02

Lori was saying here. It doesn't have

17:04

to be anything like that. And it

17:06

may just be that the people who

17:09

are asking you to hang out might

17:11

just... not be the people who you

17:13

feel an immediate click with. Maybe you'll

17:15

feel a click with them later, or

17:17

maybe at some point somebody will say,

17:20

hey, I'd love to hang out with

17:22

you again sometime, and that'll be the

17:24

person who just clicks with you in

17:26

the right way, and you'll feel like,

17:29

yeah, that's somebody I want to get

17:31

to know better. But I just think

17:33

it's okay to say no, but I

17:35

might in some cases encourage you to

17:37

leave the door open, because I agree

17:40

with Lori. romantic or family life, I

17:42

think is really useful. If for no

17:44

other reason that, then sometimes we need

17:46

to get a fresh set of ears

17:48

on a problem that's happening with our

17:51

family. Sometimes it's good to have somebody

17:53

who's on our side, who isn't fully

17:55

invested or a part of the family

17:57

unit in another way. Somebody who can

18:00

just hear us for who we are.

18:02

And I find that incredibly valuable, especially

18:04

for women who turn their families and

18:06

romantic partners into their life. Sometimes, not

18:08

that you're on safe letter writer, but

18:11

there's a sense of safety and also

18:13

just making sure we have people on

18:15

our team who are outside of our

18:17

family unit. So, you know, you are allowed to

18:20

say no, but maybe down the road, maybe

18:22

this is something that you can be

18:24

amenable to and see the benefit of

18:26

and leave the door open for. One

18:28

other thing I would mention is, I

18:30

don't think when you are saying no or

18:32

when you're pushing people off for

18:34

a little while, I don't think

18:37

you need to bring up your

18:39

neurodiversity or bring up a bunch

18:41

of excuses either. You can simply

18:43

say, this season of life, I'm so

18:45

busy right now, and then maybe leave

18:47

the door open, or maybe not. What

18:49

are your thoughts, Lori? Yeah, absolutely. That

18:52

was exactly what I was going

18:54

to suggest was this idea of

18:56

you don't need to say, no,

18:58

never. And then you feel awkward

19:00

and you don't know how to

19:02

say that. You can simply

19:04

say, I am so overwhelmed right now

19:06

with everything going on. I would love

19:09

to have coffee, but I just don't

19:11

have a minute to do that right

19:13

now. And let me get back to you

19:16

when... things change. That person probably

19:18

won't follow up with you, maybe

19:20

they will, but you can still

19:22

be busy, right? Like, you know,

19:24

they might take your lead. And

19:26

again, what the friendship looks like,

19:28

that's where you get to decide

19:30

how much contact you have or

19:32

don't have. And so this idea

19:34

of what you said about clicking,

19:36

I think, is so important that

19:38

there will be part of when

19:40

somebody wants to... see about a friendship. They're

19:43

saying, let's have coffee. You don't know if

19:45

you're gonna click. You don't know if you're

19:47

gonna like spending time with each other. You

19:49

don't know if you're gonna wanna be sort

19:51

of text buddies, you know, every once in

19:53

a while, every six months. You don't know

19:55

what it's gonna be. So it's kind of

19:57

a discovery period. It's like, oh, if you

19:59

do feel like. you know, going and having

20:01

a coffee or maybe that's overwhelming and

20:03

too much, maybe it's kind of like

20:05

you might every now and again, you

20:08

know, send a funny text to the

20:10

person or they might send you one

20:12

and that's what the friendship is, that's

20:14

fine. You might find that you don't

20:16

click at all with this person and

20:18

you both feel that way and nothing

20:21

moves forward and that's fine. Yeah, so

20:23

it's not like you're taking on a

20:25

full-time job by saying yes if you

20:27

want to engage with this person in

20:29

any way You can set the parameters

20:32

Exactly, yes, exactly letter writer. We wish

20:34

you luck We know you've got this

20:36

and who knows at the end of

20:38

this you might have a new friend

20:40

or maybe you'll comfortably not have a

20:43

friend for now, not now, but maybe

20:45

later All right,

20:47

we are going to take

20:49

a quick break. You're listening

20:52

to Dear Prudy, and when

20:54

we come back, we'll be

20:57

reading one more of your

20:59

letters. Stay with us. Welcome

21:01

back to Dear Prudence. I'm

21:04

Kristen Meinser, sitting in for

21:06

Janet, and I am here

21:08

with Lori Gottlieb to answer

21:11

your questions. The next one

21:13

is titled, Over Stretch. During

21:16

our divorce, my ex-wife demanded that

21:18

my bipolar sister have no contact

21:20

with our children. I perfectly understand

21:22

why. On more than one occasion,

21:24

my sister put the kids at

21:26

risk. In one instance, she had

21:28

a meltdown and threw a glass

21:30

that hit my four-year-old in the

21:32

head. I'm determined to honor my

21:34

ex's wishes and respect her concerns,

21:36

many of which I share. My

21:38

sister, who despite her troubles, desperately

21:40

loves my girls, and my family,

21:42

are up in arms about this.

21:44

Christmas was a disaster. My sister

21:46

had a fantastic tantrum. My parents

21:48

screamed at me. Everyone bad-mouthed my

21:50

ex, who really doesn't deserve it.

21:52

I was just glad my kids

21:54

were with their mom. It ended

21:56

with me walking out and telling

21:58

every adult in the room that

22:00

I would contact them when I

22:02

was ready to speak. all calls

22:04

since. I really do not want

22:06

to break off ties, but I'm

22:08

recently divorced. My children's lives are

22:10

upside down. My ex and I

22:12

are engaged in mostly cordial, ongoing

22:14

legal discussions, and I have no

22:16

capacity to cope with additional drama.

22:19

The kids, however, constantly ask about

22:21

their grandparents. My ex feels I

22:23

need to keep things as normal

22:25

as possible, and it's just lonely

22:27

coping with all this on my

22:29

own. My sister will always struggle

22:31

with change, but how do I

22:33

get my parents and miscellaneous other

22:35

family members to recognize that life

22:37

is complicated? This is complicated. This

22:39

is a tough situation. This is

22:41

a tough situation. This is a

22:43

tough situation. This is a tough

22:45

situation. and my kids need support,

22:47

not drama. Oh, woof. That is

22:49

a lot to deal with, isn't

22:51

it, Lori? Yeah. Yeah. I think

22:53

what strikes me most in this

22:55

letter is that the parents are

22:57

so lovingly thinking about the well-being

22:59

of their children, yet the extended

23:01

family, the grandparents and the sister,

23:03

are thinking more about themselves. than

23:05

they are about the kids. This

23:07

is a four-year-old had a glass

23:09

thrown that hit this child in

23:11

the head. That's serious. It sounds

23:13

like the sister doesn't know how

23:15

to self-regulate. Maybe she doesn't have

23:17

enough support. Maybe she's not on

23:19

medication that's going to stabilize her

23:21

moods. But whatever the issue is,

23:23

she does not seem... like she

23:25

is safe to be around the

23:27

children, and the grandparents who should

23:29

be thinking, we want normalcy for

23:31

these children who are going through

23:33

this divorce, are not saying, let's

23:35

spend time with the grandchildren, let's

23:37

make things normal for them. They're

23:39

almost using the sister as a

23:41

bargaining chip. So what needs to

23:44

happen here is that the letter

23:46

writer needs to send an email.

23:48

because it sounds like it's very

23:50

volatile to have this in person

23:52

and that the extended family can't

23:54

really kind of self-regulate around this,

23:56

as to send an email. really

23:58

saying we disagree about this issue

24:00

with our sister and it's really

24:02

important that for the children's sake

24:04

that we give them as much

24:06

normalcy as possible. We know that

24:08

they want to be around you,

24:10

the grandparents, and it would be

24:12

great if you can keep seeing

24:14

them while we as a family

24:16

work through this issue around the

24:18

sister and maybe we get some

24:20

professional advice on how to how

24:22

to deal with the fact that

24:24

the sister can be unsafe and

24:26

it's unpredictable and we don't want

24:28

to expose our children to that.

24:30

So maybe we need to get

24:32

an expert to come in and

24:34

help us maybe manage some kind

24:36

of situation where we can keep

24:38

the kids safe and have her

24:40

around them. I think all of

24:42

that's great, Lori. I would also

24:44

encourage the letterwriter. It sounds like

24:46

maybe inadvertently the letterwriter has maybe

24:48

blamed the X. Like, oh, this

24:50

was my X's idea. I agree

24:52

with the X, but just to

24:54

have a united front in this

24:56

case and say, no, the X

24:58

and I are 100% on the

25:00

same page about this. The X

25:02

and I agree on this. The

25:04

X is not the bad guy.

25:06

We are... working together to try

25:09

and create stability for the kids.

25:11

And we want to, in the

25:13

name of normalcy and safety, make

25:15

sure that the kids are safe.

25:17

And if we can see the

25:19

grandparents, we do it in a

25:21

way where, at least for now,

25:23

sister is not involved. And so

25:25

maybe that means meeting for brunch.

25:27

once every few weeks with the

25:29

parents in a public place like

25:31

a restaurant. Or maybe it means

25:33

meeting at the park once a

25:35

month with the grandparents. Somewhere where

25:37

maybe the sister isn't going to

25:39

automatically be there because that's something

25:41

that's agreed on in the custody

25:43

arrangement because you know, we want

25:45

to not just protect the kids,

25:47

but we want to protect the

25:49

custody of this letterwriter. Letterwriter could

25:51

lose the custody of their kids

25:53

if they don't comply with the

25:55

safety measure that was already set

25:57

up with their X. And so

25:59

I might try to make that

26:01

clear also in the letter. This

26:03

is about protecting the kids. It's

26:05

about complying with this agreement and

26:07

so on. It's about normalcy. Maybe

26:09

things will change down the world,

26:11

but right now we want to

26:13

do all we can to see

26:15

you. in a safe way within

26:17

these parameters. Yeah, absolutely. And the

26:19

point about the two of them

26:21

being on the same page, it

26:23

sounds like they very much are,

26:25

which is great because you don't

26:27

always see that. And I think

26:29

that that is going to be

26:31

really helpful for the kids to

26:34

feel that they have sturdy leadership,

26:36

which is what they need from

26:38

their parents at this time. And

26:40

I also want to suggest that

26:42

when they do get some support

26:44

outside around... what would it look

26:46

like to keep the kids safe

26:48

but not cut the family off

26:50

entirely? You know, it might be

26:52

that the grandparents are fine in

26:54

person, but the sister maybe it's

26:56

on face time. You know, she

26:58

does an occasional face time so

27:00

that they know who she is

27:02

and it's not like one day

27:04

she'll just pop into their lives

27:06

and she's a stranger. So there

27:08

are ways to do this where

27:10

the kids are safe and there

27:12

are agreed upon parameters. And as

27:14

things evolve, meaning if the sister

27:16

gets her condition under control in

27:18

a way that feels safe, maybe

27:20

there are some, you know, supervised

27:22

visits in certain places like a

27:24

park, right, or somewhere that might

27:26

be a little safer, but not

27:28

now. So I'm glad that they're

27:30

going through this process of kind

27:32

of ironing things out because you're

27:34

right. They can include this in

27:36

the agreement that they're working through.

27:38

And then with the other thing

27:40

I would say is that It

27:42

sounds like he sort of cut

27:44

off the family and said, well,

27:46

I'm not gonna... talk to you,

27:48

you know, that he sort of

27:50

left in a huff because it

27:52

was a very upsetting situation, understandably

27:54

so. But that's why he needs

27:56

to write this email is to

27:59

say, I'm really sorry that it

28:01

may be really sad, maybe instead

28:03

of I'm really sorry, let's start

28:05

that again. Maybe he needs to

28:07

write them an email that says,

28:09

I'm really sad about how that

28:11

holiday went down. And I think

28:13

we all agree that the kids

28:15

are the priority here. and their

28:17

safety and security is paramount for

28:19

all of us. So let's talk

28:21

about, you know, here's, you know,

28:23

my ex and I agree that

28:25

right now it's not safe because

28:27

a glass hit our four-year-old's head

28:29

and we would like to find

28:31

a way to keep the family

28:33

together, but also in a safe

28:35

way. And we would like you,

28:37

the grandparents, to obviously be in

28:39

their lives. The kids are asking

28:41

about you. They definitely want this.

28:43

And then with sister, maybe we

28:45

can get some support about how

28:47

we can integrate her in a

28:49

safe way, whether right now it's

28:51

on Face time and maybe later,

28:53

there's a way to change that

28:55

depending on what her status is.

28:57

And can we meet and can

28:59

we talk about this with a

29:01

professional? Great advice. Such great advice,

29:03

Lori. Of course, from you, only

29:05

the best. So those are all

29:07

the questions we have this week.

29:09

Lori, it's been such an honor

29:11

to share the mic with you.

29:13

I've so enjoyed this. Can you

29:15

remind our listeners where they can

29:17

get more of you? Sure. They

29:19

can read my book, which is

29:21

called Maybe You Should Talk to

29:24

Someone. They can find me on

29:26

social media, they can read my

29:28

Ask the Therapist column in the

29:30

New York Times, and they can

29:32

listen to my dear therapist's podcast.

29:34

Excellent. And listeners, you can get

29:36

more of me on how to

29:38

be fine, buy the book, and

29:40

several other podcasts I host. Do

29:42

you need help

29:44

getting along with

29:46

partners, relatives, co

29:48

-workers, and people

29:50

in general? people to

29:52

Prudy. Write to

29:54

slate .com/Prudy that slate.com forward

29:56

slash the dear prudence column is

29:58

published Dear Prudence

30:00

column is published

30:02

every Thursday. produced Dear

30:04

Prudence was produced

30:06

this week by

30:08

and Mora and editorial

30:10

editorial help from De

30:12

Verona. Rosario is is

30:14

senior supervising producer I

30:16

I am your

30:18

guest prudence, Kristen Meinser.

30:20

all for this

30:22

episode. episode, but us

30:24

on today's episode

30:26

of of Prudy Plus

30:28

and I answer

30:30

a question from

30:32

someone who feels someone

30:34

who feels by their

30:36

friends and family.

30:39

Subscribe now on Apple now on by

30:41

clicking by at the top of

30:43

our at page of our visit Slate

30:45

.com Prudy Plus to to get access

30:47

wherever you listen. The episode is

30:49

available for you to listen

30:52

to right now. to We'll see

30:54

you over there. over there.