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0:55

to Dear Prudence. I'm your guest

0:57

prudence, Kristen Meinser. I host a

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couple of other podcasts, including Buy

1:01

the Book and How to be

1:04

Fine. Be sure to check them

1:06

out if you love self-help books,

1:08

hate self-help books, or want advice

1:10

on how to be okay-ish rather

1:12

than perfect. Today, we'll be answering

1:15

questions from a concerned spouse over

1:17

their husband's drinking, a mom trying

1:19

to get her daughter to apologize

1:21

to her aunt. and someone who

1:24

can't avoid going down the rabbit

1:26

hole of social media. Here to

1:28

help me out is Vic Whitley Berry.

1:30

They're an audio producer with work published

1:32

at NPR, Spotify, the Wall Street Journal,

1:34

Vic is a superstar. Vic, welcome to

1:36

the show. Oh my gosh, it's so

1:39

great to be here. Thank you for

1:41

having me. You are so kind, so

1:43

clever and so smart. So we're just

1:45

thrilled to have you here to bring

1:48

all of that to the listeners. But

1:50

before we get started. We ask a

1:52

question of all of our guests, what

1:54

is one piece of unsolicited advice

1:56

that you would give to

1:58

the world unprompted? What is your

2:01

bit of advice, Vic? Okay, so

2:03

this is my own little mantra

2:05

when my anxiety brain gets a

2:07

little too loud or my depression

2:09

brain gets a little bit too

2:11

loud and I'm not saying that

2:14

I follow it all the time,

2:16

but it's a good kind of

2:18

mental grounding exercise for me and

2:20

it's not about you. How someone

2:22

treats me if something ends up

2:25

the way that I don't want

2:27

it to, it's probably not about

2:29

me. I am pretty confident knowing

2:31

that I did the best that

2:33

I could given the materials that

2:35

I had. And if I feel

2:37

that way, then that means that

2:40

it's probably a bazillion other things

2:42

that I have no control over

2:44

and that I am probably not

2:46

privy to no. And so I'm

2:48

not saying that you shouldn't take

2:50

responsibility when you do things wrong.

2:52

It's just like, I think most

2:54

of us. you know, if we

2:56

care, most of us are trying

2:58

to do the best that we

3:00

can and are trying to put

3:02

our best foot forward most of

3:04

the time. And it's like a

3:06

practice, a freeing practice of self-compassion

3:08

where I'm like, you know what?

3:10

We know we did our best.

3:12

And however this outcome came out,

3:14

it's probably not about me. And

3:16

we can move on. So that's

3:18

my big one. I'm not saying

3:20

I follow it all the time.

3:22

It's one that I continue to

3:24

teach myself and reteach myself and

3:26

reteach myself. I love that bit

3:28

of advice and also I think

3:30

it's really true. I agree with

3:32

you. You know, 99 times out

3:34

of 100, the person who's driving

3:36

like a jerk and turning into

3:38

the walk lane when I'm trying

3:40

to cross the street. It's not

3:42

because they're trying to kill me.

3:44

It's because they don't care. They're

3:47

in their own head. They're doing

3:49

their own thing. Nine times out

3:51

of 10, it's not about me.

3:53

It's about where they're at at

3:55

the time. It's about what they're

3:57

thinking about. They're not thinking about

3:59

me. Yeah. Very few times that

4:01

actually personal. And usually when it

4:03

is personal, they're going to be

4:05

very clear about that it's personal.

4:07

Oh yeah, you'll know. You'll usually

4:09

know if it's about you. Right,

4:11

exactly. So that's my go-to. It's

4:13

one that I probably will continue

4:15

learning for the rest of my

4:17

life, but that's my go-to one.

4:19

I think it's a long process

4:21

to really internalize it, even if

4:23

intellectually we know that's true. At

4:25

least that's been the case for

4:27

me. Yeah. I remember the first

4:29

time my Nana told me exactly

4:31

this. I was a kid at

4:33

the time. And she said, most

4:35

of those kids aren't even thinking

4:37

about you. And I was bawling.

4:39

I'm like, and isn't that heartbreaking?

4:41

Like, and then, and I'm like,

4:43

no, that it's about me. And

4:45

she's like, it's not about you,

4:47

honey. And so I heard it

4:49

maybe about 800 more times over

4:51

the course of my life before

4:53

I finally started to really internalize

4:56

it. So I agree with you,

4:58

Vic. It can take a while

5:00

to really believe it. Thank you

5:02

so much for that bit of

5:04

advice. We're going to take a

5:06

quick break. Vic, when we're back,

5:08

we are going to dive into

5:10

all of our listener questions. Stay

5:12

with us everyone. This podcast is

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today? Smart choice. Progressive loves to

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Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not

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available in all states and situations,

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prices vary based on how you

6:19

buy. Welcome

6:25

back. You're listening to Dear Prudence.

6:27

I'm Kristen Meinser and I am

6:29

here with Vic Whitley Berry. Let's

6:31

get things started with our first

6:33

letter titled, It's definitely a problem.

6:36

This letter is going to sound

6:38

trite, but I'm hoping you can

6:40

help me. My husband of 10

6:42

years, objectively and undeniably, has a

6:44

drinking problem. He'll easily polish off

6:46

a bottle of liquor when he

6:48

comes home each night during the

6:50

week, and on weekends he'll start

6:53

at noon, pass out, asleep for

6:55

a couple hours, wake up, and

6:57

start the process again around 6

6:59

p.m. Upon waking up, he is

7:01

argumentative, but also confused, which makes

7:03

for an extremely unpleasant night for

7:05

me. He won't remember things and

7:07

will accuse me of things that

7:10

are patently untrue. I try not

7:12

to engage or argue back because

7:14

I know I won't go anywhere,

7:16

but that makes him matter. I'd

7:18

call it gas lighting, except he

7:20

truly believes he never did or

7:22

said X, Y, Z. It's gotten

7:24

to the point where I want

7:27

to record our arguments, so I

7:29

have proof he did do those

7:31

things, and that I'm not crazy.

7:33

It's impossible, after all, to fight

7:35

with someone who thinks they're never

7:37

wrong. I know the drinking is

7:39

the result of deep depression. He's

7:41

just starting to get help for

7:43

that, so I'm hoping once he

7:46

addresses that issue, maybe the drinking

7:48

and fighting will improve. I also

7:50

know you can't help someone who

7:52

doesn't want to help himself, and

7:54

no amount of pleading or ultimatums

7:56

will make someone with a drinking

7:58

problem give up alcohol if he...

8:00

himself doesn't want to do so.

8:03

I guess my question is, what

8:05

do I do in the meantime? Put

8:07

up with his behavior, continue

8:10

to try to challenge him, keep

8:12

addressing it when he's sober?

8:15

The kicker is that he's

8:17

a critical care nurse, and

8:19

I'm sure he knows what

8:21

alcoholism is, but he's told

8:23

me numerous times he

8:25

doesn't have a problem.

8:28

Oh, letterwriter. Oh, I'm

8:30

so sorry. Yeah, no

8:33

kidding. This is a

8:36

terrible, terrible situation. The

8:38

yelling at you, the

8:41

argumentativeness, the disagreeing about

8:43

what they actually said, all

8:46

of it is just, it's

8:48

putting you in a terrible

8:50

spot. I'm so sorry about

8:53

all of this, and my

8:55

heart just goes out to

8:57

you because it's tough, and

8:59

it sounds like you've been

9:01

trying to keep your distance

9:03

during fights. You've been trying

9:05

to, you know, protect yourself

9:07

here, but there are absolutely more

9:09

things I think you can do,

9:12

but Vic, I would love your

9:14

initial reactions as well. Yeah, I

9:16

mean... I think this is a very

9:18

distressing place to be both as the

9:21

spouse and as the person going through

9:23

it. I am not an expert on

9:25

substance use disorder. I'm not going to

9:28

claim to be, but if this kind

9:30

of behavior is happening the

9:32

way that the letterwriter describes

9:34

it as, this seems very

9:36

dangerous. And this really seems

9:39

like there needs to be

9:41

professional intervention at this point.

9:43

And I also know that... This is

9:45

a very precarious place to be

9:47

right now because it seems like

9:49

to me this person's husband

9:51

is not ready to take that

9:54

step in acknowledging that this

9:56

has gotten to this point.

9:58

And the reading that But I

10:00

have done, a lot of them

10:03

start with first continuing this conversation

10:05

and doing it when he's sober.

10:07

Having these conversations when he's intoxicated

10:09

is just frankly not going to

10:12

help. And you're saying that he

10:14

doesn't remember them anyway. And it's

10:16

your safety matters. And I'm sure

10:18

you also are very worried about

10:21

your husband's safety too and your

10:23

husband's health. And this isn't the

10:25

same kind of situation, but I

10:27

have had experiences in couples therapy

10:30

that one of the best ways

10:32

when you are in a point

10:34

of conflict, instead of saying you're

10:36

doing this, you're doing that, you're

10:39

the problem and trying to demand

10:41

to be heard from that lens,

10:43

most people shut down very quickly.

10:45

And so I think from When

10:48

you're trying to continue this conversation,

10:50

which I really think you need

10:52

to, you need to continue this

10:54

conversation with your husband that you

10:57

were concerned about this, frame it

10:59

in a lot of I statements.

11:01

And I know this is an

11:03

overuse thing, but like, I feel

11:06

like it would be maybe more

11:08

successful to get to him by

11:10

saying, I really miss feeling like

11:12

I can connect with you when

11:15

we're drinking. And then maybe suggest

11:17

different outings together where you can

11:19

control whether there's alcohol there or

11:22

not. Going on a walk in

11:24

the park, going to the movies,

11:26

or going to places that you

11:28

know, and you might have to

11:30

not even explicitly say it, but if

11:33

you're the one that's planning the outing

11:35

and ensuring that there won't be alcohol

11:37

present, that way you can have uninterrupted

11:40

time with him, where you can really

11:42

try to connect with him in ways

11:44

that I'm going to imagine you really

11:46

miss. Um, this is just so, it's

11:49

a, it's a, it's a heartbreaking situation

11:51

and it really seems like this is

11:53

a very dangerous situation for him. Yeah.

11:56

I also suggest don't doing it. alone.

11:58

I mean, if he's acting this way,

12:00

he's probably has really close friends or

12:03

family members that might be noticing it

12:05

too. I hope so. I hope he's

12:07

not just doing this around you. I

12:10

would ask if it needs to get

12:12

to the level of like a sit

12:14

down intervention situation, like ask someone to

12:16

be there with you in solidarity to

12:19

bring that conversation with him and say

12:21

that you're really worried about him and

12:23

you want to support him. Yeah. What

12:26

about you. What do you think? What

12:28

do you think? What do you think?

12:30

totally agree that our letterwriter should not

12:33

be going this alone. There is help

12:35

out there. There's the support of friends

12:37

and family, which you've already mentioned, Vic,

12:39

but there are also organizations that this

12:42

is their specialty, Al-Anon, there are therapists

12:44

who specialize in substance abuse, and I

12:46

would seek those sorts of resources out

12:49

immediately. They are going to give you

12:51

tools. They're going to help you with

12:53

what you're going through now. They're going

12:56

to help give you scripts. They're going

12:58

to help you set boundaries. Boundaries are

13:00

really, really important here. Because letter writer,

13:03

it sounds like you've tried to, you

13:05

know, like, oh, I'm going to try

13:07

to keep my distance when fighting is

13:09

happening. But part of boundaries is making

13:12

clear, as you said, Vic, in the

13:14

sober moments. This is what I will

13:16

put up with and this is what

13:19

I won't. when it's happening to stand

13:21

by that boundary? You say letterwriter, oh,

13:23

when I say I don't want to

13:26

be involved in these arguments, and then

13:28

I try to like distance myself, then

13:30

he gets even more mad? Well, that's

13:32

too bad that he's getting more mad.

13:35

That's on him. you need to extricate

13:37

yourself, you need to stand by that

13:39

boundary, state the boundary when he's sober,

13:42

stick by that boundary. Again, groups like

13:44

Al-Anon or therapists, they're going to help

13:46

you with that, you know, what kind

13:49

of language will feel most comfortable for

13:51

you to use, what kinds of tactics

13:53

are going to protect you the most,

13:56

and hopefully over time seeking out these

13:58

kinds of... resources, you'll also realize how

14:00

much you need to take care of

14:02

yourself because it sounds right now like

14:05

you're doing so much to take care

14:07

of him. What can I do about

14:09

this? What can I do to prove

14:12

to him that he's doing these things?

14:14

Should I be recording these conversations? And

14:16

there's only so much you can do

14:19

to take care of someone who won't

14:21

take care of themselves. As you admit

14:23

letter writer, you even know that yourself.

14:26

There's only so much you can do

14:28

for someone who won't take care of

14:30

themselves. So I'm just going to urge

14:32

you as much as much as much

14:35

as much as possible. Please take care

14:37

of yourself. I'm not saying to stop

14:39

loving your partner, loving your husband. Love

14:42

him. Cheer for him as he's getting

14:44

help for his depression. Encourage that. Tell

14:46

him how proud you are of him

14:49

for getting help for that. Hopefully his

14:51

medical team or his therapy team is

14:53

good and they're going to address his

14:55

alcoholism as part of the treatment. It's

14:58

also something that I think you can

15:00

bring up at a certain point. If

15:02

you're not comfortable doing it now, again,

15:05

you can learn that language from groups

15:07

like Al-Anon, but really above all, take

15:09

care of yourself and please take care

15:12

of your safety. Yeah. Please do. Vic,

15:14

you already alluded to this more than

15:16

once. It sounds like this isn't 100%

15:19

a safe situation. When people are being

15:21

irrational, when they're yelling, when they don't

15:23

remember what they did the day before.

15:25

It can be really dangerous and it

15:28

already is psychologically dangerous for you, but

15:30

it could also become physically dangerous for

15:32

you. So please use those resources. Take

15:35

care of yourself. Also, if your husband

15:37

is open to it, consider getting into

15:39

couples therapy. Vic, I'm glad you mentioned

15:42

couples therapy because there are things that

15:44

a therapist can help you say to

15:46

each other and maybe get through to

15:48

each other that maybe you're not getting

15:51

through to each other right now. Those

15:53

are just some suggestions to get started.

15:55

I feel so bad for you. What

15:58

are you? Me too. Such a tough

16:00

spot to be on. Yeah. And one

16:02

thing you had mentioned. building off of

16:05

really seeking out the support of close

16:07

loved ones, I can imagine a situation

16:09

where you're so in this, it's so

16:12

all consuming that it can almost feel

16:14

like even the idea of looking out

16:16

for resources can feel overwhelming, that it

16:18

kind of freezes you in place. People

16:21

love to be given a job, frankly,

16:23

especially in times of crises. People love

16:25

to be given a job. And that

16:28

is something you can ask your community,

16:30

your friends, your family to help you

16:32

do. Someone that you trust. I don't

16:35

know how many other people you've really

16:37

talked to about this situation, but if

16:39

this is the first time you're bringing

16:41

it up with someone outside of you

16:44

and your husband and this letter, try

16:46

to find someone that you know is

16:48

going to... The first thing they're always

16:51

going to do is support you and

16:53

say, hey, I am in this position

16:55

and I don't know how to move

16:58

forward. The one thing I need right

17:00

now before we do anything else is

17:02

finding resources so I can take my

17:05

next steps both for myself and for

17:07

my spouse. Like, you don't have to

17:09

do that by yourself. It, frankly, is

17:11

probably really, really challenging to do that

17:14

by yourself. And people love a job

17:16

and that. going to those resources, finding

17:18

those therapists, going to alanon people, especially

17:21

people that are in it, have the

17:23

capacity to do that for you and

17:25

give you even a bulleted list of

17:28

like one, two, three, steps, one, two,

17:30

three, this is what we're going to

17:32

do. Yeah. I found this alanon meeting.

17:35

It's located six bucks from your house.

17:37

It's at this time, you know. things

17:39

like that. They can give you all

17:41

of that information if you give them

17:44

the assignment to help you. Exactly. And

17:46

yeah, I totally agree with you, Vic.

17:48

I say that all the time. People

17:51

love assignments. People, people love helping. We

17:53

really do love being told what to

17:55

do to a certain extent, especially when

17:58

it's in service of those we love.

18:00

Exactly. is titled, Gift Trouble.

18:02

I love my daughter. She just

18:04

graduated college with

18:07

zero debt and taught herself

18:09

how to be basically

18:11

a professional chef. She has high standards,

18:13

but no grace for anyone that doesn't

18:15

meet them. Everything is an insult otherwise.

18:18

My sister was very surprised and happy

18:20

when her daughter, who was in her

18:22

late 30s, started to cook of her

18:24

volition and sending her pictures of the

18:26

meals she made. Maybe it was just

18:28

tacos, but she was proud. My niece

18:30

said this cooking book really helped her.

18:32

So my sister bought it for my

18:35

daughter, since my daughter loves to cook.

18:37

It was very much a baby's first

18:39

cookbook. My sister meant no harm. My

18:41

daughter insists. It is a backhanded insult to

18:43

her. And she talked at length about it

18:46

to other family members and word got back

18:48

to my sister. She has extremely heart and

18:50

has canceled her holiday visit. Our mother is

18:52

in her late 80s in poor health. She

18:55

is very upset about this and wants my

18:57

daughter to apologize. My daughter refuses. According to

18:59

her, she did nothing wrong and my sister

19:01

always got her insulting gifts. Her examples were

19:04

cute CPJs and items from previous hobbies and

19:06

interests like when she was horse mad in

19:08

junior high. I don't know how or when

19:11

my daughter got this rigid. I taught her

19:13

to say thank you for gifts even if

19:15

they were unwanted. She had a lot of

19:17

relationship problems in the last year because she

19:19

just can't find a man that measures up,

19:21

in her words. My sister doesn't have a

19:23

mean bone in her body. I really don't

19:25

know what to do here. My sister has

19:27

limited means, so she would have to stay

19:29

with us during the visit. My daughter lives

19:31

with us. I've tried to respect my daughter's

19:33

independence, but I am this close to telling

19:35

her to apologize or just go to her

19:37

dads for the holiday then. What now? Oh,

19:47

Lutter Writer, I am so...

19:49

Sorry, this is irritating.

19:51

And to watch somebody

19:54

you love hurt other

19:56

people you love? Oh,

19:58

it can feel just...

20:00

overwhelming can feel helpless like, oh.

20:02

And it sounds like she's really caught

20:04

in the middle here. Yeah, it does.

20:07

Really, really sucks. And also, as someone

20:09

who has very high standards of themselves

20:11

and high standards and others, there's a

20:14

difference between having high standards and being

20:16

cruel. Like you can have high standards

20:18

and people, especially people that you care

20:21

about or people that you, for whatever

20:23

reason, hold high standards for, that doesn't

20:25

mean you have to be mean about

20:28

it. It's... Oh my gosh. Yeah. That

20:30

being said, I am going to suggest

20:32

to the letter writer that, even though

20:35

my initial reaction is like, oh, what

20:37

a brat, my suggestion is actually going

20:39

to be to lead with curiosity and

20:41

compassion for your daughter. I know it's

20:44

hard to be compassionate towards someone who's...

20:46

being such a brat. And I'm not

20:48

saying brat in the cool brat girl

20:51

summer way. I'm like, this is like

20:53

she's being a brat. She's being, yeah.

20:55

That's something that seems so small too.

20:58

Yeah. It's a cookbook. Like, yeah. But

21:00

here's what I'm getting from this. Your

21:02

daughter is still young. She just graduated

21:05

from college. People who are in their

21:07

early 20s are just teenagers in legal

21:09

adult bodies. Okay, our brains are not

21:12

fully cooked till we're 25. We can

21:14

be petulant. We can have issues with

21:16

emotional regulation. We can have a lot

21:19

of stuff going on when we're in

21:21

our early 20s. According to brain doctors,

21:23

we're not really adults, even if legally

21:26

we're allowed to drive cars and serve

21:28

in the military or drink alcohol, but

21:30

we're not really adults yet. just you

21:33

know that's something to keep in mind

21:35

we're still learning how to grow up

21:37

at that age and it doesn't necessarily

21:40

help that she lives at home still

21:42

because a lot of us when we're

21:44

at home with our parents whether it's

21:46

staying at a parents house for the

21:49

holidays or still living at home because

21:51

we can't afford to move out sometimes

21:53

it's easy to fall into the role

21:56

of acting a child longer than we

21:58

actually would normally act like a child.

22:00

And so I think that can be

22:03

a factor too. Some other things that

22:05

I think might be factors. You mentioned

22:07

at the end of your letter a

22:10

father and maybe I'm wondering if there

22:12

are different standards in the different households

22:14

when your daughter's with her dad. What

22:17

are those parenting standards like versus when

22:19

your daughter's at home with you? Is

22:21

one of you really lenient? Is one

22:24

of you overly strict? Is it the

22:26

case that possibly... your daughter never really

22:28

adjusted to that family dynamic and that's

22:31

part of, you know, what's playing into

22:33

her continuing to act kind of like

22:35

a child here because I do think

22:38

there's lots of things that can be

22:40

upsetting at home that cause us to

22:42

kind of regress or not progress as

22:45

much as we should. This is not

22:47

me trying to blame you, letter writer.

22:49

It's just about being curious. being compassionate

22:52

and trying to see things from your

22:54

daughter's point of view. It sounds like

22:56

you're already trying to do that to

22:58

a certain extent. You found out that

23:01

your daughter feels condescended to through gifts

23:03

that her aunt is giving her. So

23:05

that's a good first step and I

23:08

would dig into that a little bit

23:10

more. And as you get more curious,

23:12

then also maybe help her to see

23:15

things from somebody else's point of view

23:17

and allow your daughter to get curious

23:19

in turn. So one thing your daughter

23:22

can get curious about is the fact

23:24

that not everyone's a great gift giver.

23:26

I'm putting myself in this category, okay?

23:29

I am the person who will accidentally

23:31

give the pony gifts to the person

23:33

who's 16 now and they haven't liked

23:36

ponies since they were nine. I'm sorry

23:38

to everybody I've given bad gifts to

23:40

over the years. Some of us just,

23:43

that's not our thing. We're not great

23:45

at gifts. And me personally, one reason

23:47

I'm bad at gifts is because I

23:50

don't care about gifts. I really don't.

23:52

If people give me presents or not,

23:54

I just don't care. I'd rather just

23:57

spend time with you. I'd rather go

23:59

on a walk. you or have coffee,

24:01

I don't need presents. And not everybody's

24:03

good at gifts. And that's something to

24:06

maybe get curious about too. What is,

24:08

you know, what is her aunt better

24:10

at? What are things that she excels

24:13

at? Yes, she's not necessarily good at

24:15

gifts, but maybe there are other things

24:17

she's good at. Maybe she's a really

24:20

loving person. Maybe she's just doing her

24:22

best. Let's dig into that. And just

24:24

making clear to your daughter, like, just

24:27

because someone's not good at one area,

24:29

it doesn't mean they're bad at all

24:31

things, and it doesn't mean there's malice

24:34

there. Absolutely, I totally agree. And I

24:36

also think this is actually a great

24:38

opportunity to have the daughter and her

24:41

aunt better understand each other. Like clearly

24:43

they're not on the same page about

24:45

how they relate to one another. And

24:48

it sounds like from the way that

24:50

this, from the way that the mom

24:52

is writing this letter, that her daughter

24:55

is going through as most people do

24:57

when they graduate college, a season of

24:59

self-determination. And she's trying to assert like

25:02

self-autonomy and self-authority and trying to find

25:04

ways to express herself and to be

25:06

clear about how she feels. One way

25:09

she can do that without causing all

25:11

of this is by saying, hey aunt,

25:13

I'm an adult now, you don't need

25:15

to give me gifts anymore. Like, like,

25:18

just like. You don't even need to

25:20

say, I hated every other gift you

25:22

gave me before that and return them,

25:25

but just be like, you know what,

25:27

like, don't worry about it. Like, don't

25:29

feel like you need to bring gifts.

25:32

I appreciate it, but I don't need

25:34

them anymore. You know what? It's fine.

25:36

And like, maybe this can be an

25:39

opportunity if she feels, if this daughter

25:41

feels like she's being patronized to, or

25:43

if the gifts like these are patronizing

25:46

to her, She can take this opportunity

25:48

to be like, hey, instead of you

25:50

feeling the need to get me a

25:53

cookbook, let's just cook together. I can

25:55

cook you a meal. It really, I

25:57

mean, I'm not really getting that vibe

26:00

from this. young woman really but I

26:02

mean you know it's a start like

26:04

this is an opportunity to be like

26:07

for them to and maybe the mom

26:09

has to facilitate this and I'm sorry

26:11

for that emotional labor but like facilitating

26:14

a dialogue between the two of them

26:16

that's like this is a good moment

26:18

to better understand where each person is

26:20

coming from yeah and also it sucks

26:23

to be in the middle of things

26:25

like this and the other side of

26:27

this coin is the fact that we're

26:30

all adults here so Ultimately, the letterwriter

26:32

can not control how both her sister

26:34

reacts in the situation and how her

26:37

daughter reacts in the situation. So if

26:39

she gives this as a, if she

26:41

proposes this as an opportunity and they

26:44

both say, no, I don't want to

26:46

deal with it, that's their decision because

26:48

everybody, she doesn't have control over what

26:51

these people decide to do. Yeah. But

26:53

dang. It's a cookbook. Yeah, just a

26:55

couple of other things I would suggest

26:58

to the letterwriter. Reiterate to your sister

27:00

and to your mother. I love you.

27:02

I really do want to spend the

27:05

holidays with you. I am, you know,

27:07

I'm so sorry that this is going

27:09

on right now. It doesn't change how

27:12

much I love you, how much I

27:14

appreciate you. Do what you can to

27:16

reassert your own love for your sister

27:19

and your mother and how much you

27:21

want to spend the holidays with them.

27:23

Of course, as you were saying, Vic,

27:26

they might not want to spend them

27:28

with you after this, but just double

27:30

down on that. Make clear that there

27:32

is still love there. And you know,

27:35

as far as your daughter being an

27:37

adult and wanting to assert herself as

27:39

an adult, maybe also make clear, one

27:42

thing adults do is sometimes we apologize

27:44

we apologize. for things, even if we

27:46

don't fully feel them in our hearts.

27:49

Sometimes we apologize because that's how we

27:51

keep the peace and make people feel

27:53

loved. Sometimes we do that. And you

27:56

can even, depending on how, I mean,

27:58

it sounds like you and your daughter

28:00

have a. really close relationship, you talk

28:03

about how proud you are of her.

28:05

I mean, you can even maybe say,

28:07

hey, I know you don't feel

28:09

like you need to, and I

28:11

get that, it would really mean

28:14

a lot to me if you

28:16

apologize this one time so that

28:18

we can try to move forward.

28:21

And, you know, like, again, I

28:23

don't really get the vibe that

28:25

she wants to do this, but

28:28

it's worth a shot, you know. A

28:30

final thing I just want to bring

28:32

up. The letter writer brings up her

28:34

daughter's love life. Mm-hmm. Please never do

28:36

that. No, no, women always do not

28:39

have high expectations of men. Men have

28:41

too low of expectations. Yes. High expectations

28:43

of men. I'm sorry. Like, it's just

28:45

not the same thing. Like, I really

28:47

don't think this is the same situation.

28:50

Yeah, they're two different things. They're

28:52

entirely different things. And I

28:54

understand you are trying to... It

28:56

makes sense that you would try

28:58

to want to give context that

29:01

this is not an isolated incident,

29:03

but I don't think these things are

29:05

related. And I don't think

29:07

you aren't necessarily trying

29:09

to say that, but I think they are

29:11

separate things. Yeah. And I will say

29:14

as somebody who was once a

29:16

21-year-old, 22-year-old, 23-year-old

29:18

dating men. Men that age, most of them

29:20

don't live up to... decency standards. Most of

29:22

them are little boys who are just figuring

29:25

their shit out and a lot of them

29:27

are not good at it. And so I don't think

29:29

your daughter's wrong there that most of them don't

29:31

measure up because most of them are just like

29:33

little kids still. So yeah and why would you want

29:35

to be miserable with someone who doesn't

29:37

measure up your standards? Yeah, I'm happily

29:39

married to a grown-up man now, but

29:41

even he says, he's like, when I

29:44

was 21, I was an idiot. Nobody

29:46

should have married me at 25. You

29:48

know? Yeah, so just keep that as

29:50

a separate issue. Maybe you can think

29:52

about it in your heart, but this

29:54

doesn't need to be part of this

29:56

conversation. All right. You are listening

29:58

to your prudence. We are going to

30:01

take a quick break and when

30:03

we come back, we'll be reading

30:05

more of your letters. Stay with

30:07

us everyone. Hey there, Ryan Reynolds

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our old blinds. Hard to install?

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No, it was easy. I installed.

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I installed. I installed Deason, then

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That's the Hyperixed podcast from Radiotopia.

31:47

Welcome back to Dear Prudence, I'm Kristen

31:50

Meinser sitting in for Janet and I'm

31:52

here with my guest Vic Whitley Barry

31:54

to answer your questions. The next one

31:57

is titled. I'm addicted to a particular

31:59

aspect of the internet. I spend hours

32:01

and hours a day reading what people

32:03

are up to. It's not just people

32:06

I specifically care about and find interesting,

32:08

but I can't look away from any

32:10

source of reliable commentary from people. Friends

32:13

and family who overshare on Facebook. Influencers

32:15

who do walls of text in their

32:17

stories. Tiktakers talking to the camera, the

32:20

endless scroll of Reddit and threads, comment

32:22

sections on dear prudence, it's become a

32:24

mental rabbit hole that I can lose

32:26

hours in. And I don't know where

32:29

this came from. I'm not lonely. I

32:31

have a lovely community of friends that

32:33

I see in person frequently, and my

32:36

partner and I have a loving, emotionally

32:38

connected relationship. I even have lots of

32:40

long distance friends who love to text

32:42

a lot. I'm overflowing with personal connection,

32:45

and I still can't seem to stop

32:47

myself from obsessesively trying to fill my

32:49

brain with other people's stories and opinions

32:52

and opinions. I've had the most luck

32:54

with leading TikTok, Reddit, and threads for

32:56

my phone for weeks at a time,

32:58

but I need to use Instagram sometimes

33:01

for work, and it's just very hard

33:03

to stay off the internet. The main

33:05

way that is impacting my life is

33:08

that when I'm trying to work, I

33:10

physically cannot stop myself from migrating to

33:12

one forum or another every time I

33:14

get distracted or in between tasks. I

33:17

suspect I have ADHD, but I don't

33:19

have great access to therapy, and my

33:21

insurance only covers one practice in my

33:24

smallish town, and both therapists I saw

33:26

there were the, okay, and how did

33:28

that make you feel ad nauseam type

33:30

practitioners? Do you have any ideas for

33:33

me? Kristen, when I tell you... how

33:35

much relief I had reading this letter

33:37

because the first two were so heavy

33:40

and I was like man I really

33:42

need to be as like compassionate as

33:44

I possibly get it really think of

33:46

all of the possible options that these

33:49

have and this one feels so easy

33:51

to make like I mean this person

33:53

already had a solution yes do in

33:56

it to keep delete them from your

33:58

phone and never have them come back

34:00

it seems like yes one of the

34:03

things that worked keep doing it Yes,

34:05

absolutely. Keep doing it. It sounds like

34:07

the letterwriter does need to keep Instagram

34:09

for work, but here's something you can

34:12

do on Instagram. Unallow everybody. Tell your

34:14

loved ones. I am no longer having

34:16

personal relationships on Instagram. Instagram, I need

34:19

to use for work. And that's why

34:21

I'm only following work clients, work colleagues,

34:23

whatever the work stuff is. And get

34:25

rid of everybody else. If you must

34:28

follow. anyone on Instagram, make it like

34:30

dogs or beavers or, you know, copy

34:32

borrowers like I do. Don't follow anybody

34:35

where you're going to get sucked into

34:37

stories, into drama, into am I an

34:39

asshole, get rid of all of that

34:41

stuff, and just make Instagram for work,

34:44

maybe a couple of animals, but mostly

34:46

for work. Yeah, also, okay. I totally

34:48

hear you on, I need to have

34:51

X, Y, Z social media account for

34:53

work. I mean, I've been a journalist

34:55

for almost a decade and I definitely

34:57

was one of those people who's like,

35:00

oh man, I need to get Twitter

35:02

for work, I need to get Twitter

35:04

for work, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

35:07

I would spend a lot of time

35:09

on it. And as I started reevaluating

35:11

my relationship with social media, because first

35:13

of all, this is such an... Common

35:16

problem and not to diminish it at

35:18

all like so many people myself included

35:20

relate to this all the time Yes,

35:23

and when I really tried to think

35:25

of like okay Yes, I used Twitter

35:27

for work But do I use it

35:30

enough that I need it on my

35:32

phone? That's always with me all the

35:34

time Or can I do the things

35:36

that I need to do for it

35:39

on work on my desktop? in my

35:41

office. You know what I mean? Yes.

35:43

And I even will do that with

35:46

other social media accounts, frankly, Instagram, which

35:48

the interface on Instagram on desktop is

35:50

the worst on the phone, but it

35:52

probably... like just try it just see

35:55

maybe give it I don't give it

35:57

a day give it a week like

35:59

try doing the work things you need

36:02

to do on Instagram on your computer

36:04

and see if that works for you

36:06

you know I would also if you

36:08

can time when you do those kinds

36:11

of Instagram tasks Time them so that

36:13

they're at the end of the day

36:15

so they don't take you away from

36:18

other work. This is what I do

36:20

in the final 30 minutes of every

36:22

day as I go on Instagram and

36:24

I do this stuff. All those other

36:27

times of the day letter writer you're

36:29

mentioning when you have lulls in the

36:31

day when you need to take a

36:34

break. do something else that's really enjoyable

36:36

and pleasurable. Maybe that's going to the

36:38

coffee station and trying a different coffee

36:40

each day. Maybe that's taking a quick

36:43

five-minute walk around the floor of your

36:45

building or around the block, getting some

36:47

fresh air. There are other really pleasurable

36:50

things you can do that will get

36:52

the serotonin going, the endorphins going in

36:54

a way that you're trying to get

36:57

that hit off of internet gossip. And

36:59

internet gossip. It is a serotonin rush.

37:01

It does get the endorphins going. So

37:03

people who say like, oh, I feel

37:06

like I'm addicted, it's because you are,

37:08

because those are real physical things that

37:10

you're experiencing, the satisfaction of scrolling, of

37:13

reading this, of getting sucked into that

37:15

drama. But you can get that from

37:17

other. ways. Like I said, just taking

37:19

a short walk can give you some

37:22

of that same boost or, you know,

37:24

talking with a friend in the hallway

37:26

or in the break room, whatever it

37:29

is, there are other things you can

37:31

do that don't involve technology that can

37:33

give you that little bit of juice

37:35

that you might want. Yeah, and I

37:38

was thinking in the same thing of

37:40

like, because I also am very good

37:42

about hyper focusing on like the smallest,

37:45

most menial tasks. It's like one of

37:47

my superpowers. And so I was like,

37:49

what are other ways that that hyper

37:51

focus comes out in me that I

37:54

genuinely enjoy that don't require using? phone.

37:56

I love puzzles. Puzzles for me also

37:58

do that same level of hyper fixation

38:01

that I can like sit and do

38:03

it for a long period of time.

38:05

I also have gotten into the hobby

38:07

of making miniatures. I was recently on

38:10

a trip abroad and wanted to bring

38:12

some presents for myself back and I

38:14

ended up getting a miniature of Something

38:17

from a film that I really love

38:19

for the Studio Ghibli fans. It's How's

38:21

Castle from How's Moving Castle? And I

38:23

made it from my little, from my

38:26

little, my hands felt very big, much

38:28

bigger than they usually are. But it's

38:30

like the, it was astounding how, how

38:33

focused I was and how this just

38:35

consumed my brain of like when can

38:37

I like get back to making my

38:40

castle again and I'm looking at it

38:42

right over on my desk. It's excellent

38:44

and it brings me so much joy.

38:46

And it's like this, it's such a

38:49

similar level of hyper focus that I

38:51

get when I scroll TikTok. And it

38:53

sounds like to me that you don't

38:56

necessarily want to quit, which is totally

38:58

fine. So maybe in order to like

39:00

make sure that this is still in

39:02

your life so you're not constantly being

39:05

like, when do I get to do

39:07

this again, physically schedule it into your

39:09

planned day. Yes. So like we have

39:12

30 minutes while I'm drinking my coffee

39:14

before getting into work where I am

39:16

scrolling TikTok. 30 minutes of my lunch

39:18

break is when I go through red

39:21

it while eating my little burrito or

39:23

whatever you have. And then like you

39:25

said at the end of the day,

39:28

30 minutes the end of the day

39:30

is when I do my work stuff

39:32

on Instagram. So like physically put that

39:34

in your physical calendar, put it in

39:37

your phone calendar, whatever helps I do

39:39

both because I need it. But yeah,

39:41

just to make sure that this is

39:44

still a part of your life in

39:46

a way that doesn't feel out of

39:48

control. Because that's when, to me, it

39:50

sounds like you want to change. It's

39:53

when it feels like you can't stop

39:55

yourself. Yes. Yeah. And there are apps

39:57

out there if you really can't stop.

40:00

yourself and you want help with that.

40:02

A break, a couple of the

40:04

apps include break free cell phone addiction.

40:06

Another one is called quality time. These

40:08

apps track how often and when you

40:10

most frequently use your different social media

40:12

and then help you to trim that

40:14

time down and be more. deliberate about

40:17

when you use it. So it's not

40:19

so much. I'm addicted and I just

40:21

found the phone in my hand. I

40:23

didn't even know how the phone got

40:25

in my hand. And before you know

40:27

it, I've spent six hours on this

40:29

phone looking at other people's drama. But

40:31

there are a lot of apps out

40:33

there. That's just two apps I mentioned.

40:35

But there are lots of them out there

40:37

because this is such a real problem for

40:40

so many people. There are a lot of

40:42

apps that are out there to try and

40:44

help people to try and help folks that

40:46

are out there to try and help folks

40:49

that are out there. A lot of us

40:51

feel that way. I've definitely gone through my

40:53

periods of life where, oh no, it's been

40:56

weeks now where I stay up till two

40:58

in the morning every night reading about people's

41:00

drama online. I've done that. M-I-N-asshole stuff on

41:02

Reddit. I've fallen into that trap before.

41:05

I get it. So you're not

41:07

alone in this, but there are

41:09

definitely tools and strategies and strategies.

41:12

I would encourage you to maybe

41:14

look for help outside that little

41:16

clinic in your town that your

41:19

insurance covers. There are ways to

41:21

get help through universities, for example,

41:23

mental health helplines and so on,

41:26

where they might be able to

41:28

give you other strategies that

41:30

we're not giving you here. But yeah, I

41:32

know a lot of people over the years

41:34

who went to university psychology departments for help

41:37

when they couldn't afford therapy, that may be

41:39

an option for you. It can be done

41:41

remotely, not in person nowadays too. So it

41:44

doesn't even have to be a university that's

41:46

within an hour of your house. It might

41:48

be a little bit further. Yeah, another

41:50

one that I like to use,

41:52

especially when I'm at my work

41:54

computer, I really like to have

41:56

low-fi on while I'm doing work

41:58

and one of my... favorite streamers

42:00

is low-fi girl on YouTube and

42:02

they actually now have a new

42:04

live stream that's a study versus

42:06

like study break time so I

42:09

think they'll do like 25 minutes

42:11

where you and low-fi girl she's

42:13

in the library and you're like

42:15

doing your little work and click

42:17

clacking your little keys and doing

42:19

her little job and she's in

42:21

the library like studying for a

42:23

little tust and 25 minutes will

42:25

go by and then you get

42:27

a little ding on the live

42:29

stream and then you get like

42:31

10 minutes where you and low

42:34

5 girl like do your mindless

42:36

soft brain stuff like scroll through

42:38

your phone so like there are

42:40

different there's and that's free if

42:42

you if you can go on

42:44

YouTube that's free so yeah like

42:46

this is definitely you are on

42:48

the right track you knew you

42:50

have something that worked taking things

42:52

all of these apps off of

42:54

your phone worked I say do

42:56

that continue to do that and

42:58

yeah And Kristen, like you said,

43:01

there's so many different options of

43:03

different apps that you can use

43:05

as well. So that's good luck,

43:07

friend. Yes, you got this letter

43:09

writer, you can do it. Well,

43:11

those are all the questions we

43:13

have for this week. It has

43:15

been so fun and hopefully helpful

43:17

for you, our listeners, Vic, can

43:19

you let our listeners know where

43:21

they can get more view? Oh,

43:23

yeah, totally. So you can follow

43:26

my work at my website at

43:28

my website. It's Victoria. I am

43:30

also on Twitter under hashtag Tory

43:32

Whitley and on Instagram as V

43:34

Whitby. I know all of them

43:36

are different. I'm using different names.

43:38

I have different names and I

43:40

like them all and so I

43:42

use them all. I'm sorry about

43:44

it. But my website is probably

43:46

the best place you can find

43:48

me Victoria spelled the typical way

43:51

that you spell it. And then

43:53

Hart H-A-R-T because it's my middle

43:55

name and I like it. And

43:57

then Whitley. So that's when you

43:59

can find me. Yes, everybody check

44:01

Vic out. And for more of

44:03

me, you can listen to my

44:05

podcasts by the book and how

44:07

to be fine. I also host

44:09

a show for the Mayo Clinic

44:11

called Health Matters. And recent episodes

44:13

include ones about ADHD, which came

44:16

up in this week's episode, as

44:18

well as episodes covering our brain

44:20

on news. So that may be

44:22

of service to some folks out

44:24

there. Oh, I need to listen

44:26

to those because my brain is

44:28

suffering about the news. So I'm

44:30

going to listen to that. Me

44:32

and you and everybody, we know.

44:34

Listeners, do you need help getting

44:36

along with partners, relatives, co-workers, and

44:38

people in general? Write to Prudy,

44:41

go to slate.com,/Prudy, that slate.com,/P-R-U-D-I-E. The

44:43

Dear Prudence Column publishes every Thursday.

44:45

Dear Prudence was produced this week

44:47

by Mora Curry, editorial help from

44:49

Paula De Verona, Daisy Rizzaro is

44:51

senior supervising producer, and Alicia Montgomery

44:53

is Slate's VP of audio. And

44:55

I'm your guest prudence, Kristen Meinser.

44:57

That's all for this episode, but

44:59

join us on today's episode of

45:01

Prudy Plus, where Vic and I

45:03

answer a question from someone who

45:05

wants to be a little bit

45:08

more transparent with her friends. Subscribe

45:10

now on Apple Podcast by clicking

45:12

Try Free at the top of

45:14

our show page or visit slate.com/Prudy

45:16

Plus to get access wherever you

45:18

listen. The episode is available for

45:20

you to listen to you right

45:22

now. We'll see you there. Hi,

45:40

it's Carvel from Slate's How To Podcast. Are

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