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more. Welcome

1:05

to Dear Prudence. I'm your guest

1:08

prudence, Kristen Meinser. I host a

1:10

couple of other podcasts, including By

1:12

the Book, and How to be

1:14

Fine. Be sure to check those

1:17

out if you love self-help books,

1:19

hate self-help books, or want advice

1:21

on how to be OK-ish rather

1:24

than perfect. Today, we'll be answering

1:26

questions about abuse accusations. how to

1:28

introduce your parents to the person

1:30

you're dating, and how to resolve

1:33

an explosion of a fight with

1:35

a sibling. Here to help me

1:37

out today is the great Vanessa

1:39

Zoltan! She's the CEO and founder

1:41

of Not Sorry Productions, which produces

1:44

Hot and Bothered, a podcast all

1:46

about romcoms, the good in the

1:48

bad of them, and Taylor Swift.

1:50

as a sacred text. She's also

1:52

an atheist chaplain and author of

1:54

the book praying with Jane Eyre

1:56

reflections on reading as a sacred.

1:58

Vanessa, we're so thrilled to have

2:01

you here today. Welcome to the

2:03

show. Oh my God, I'm personally

2:05

thrilled as a fan of yours.

2:07

I'm personally thrilled as a fan

2:09

of yours to be here. And

2:11

also, I've been reading Dear Prudence,

2:13

I mean, I think for 15

2:16

years. Me too. It's an honor

2:18

to be part of it. I

2:20

feel exactly the same way. Now,

2:22

Vanessa, before we get started, I

2:24

am going to ask you a

2:26

question that we ask all of

2:28

our guests. What is one piece

2:30

of unsolicited advice that you would

2:33

give to the world unprompted? Always

2:35

pack a bathing suit. Oh, that's

2:37

so true! They pack small. You're

2:39

never going to regret having it.

2:41

Yes. And you never know when

2:43

there's going to be a last

2:45

minute opportunity to swim. Oh my

2:48

gosh. I have been in the

2:50

pickle before where I don't have

2:52

a swimsuit because I think this

2:54

is a winter vacation. And then

2:56

it turns out somebody has a

2:58

hot tub and they're like... Why

3:00

didn't you bring a swimsuit? And

3:02

I'm like, I didn't think to

3:05

bring one. But I think you're

3:07

absolutely right because winter vacation, summer

3:09

vacation, just going, you know, an

3:11

hour outside the city. You never

3:13

know. There might be a situation

3:15

where a swimsuit is warranted. That's

3:17

great advice. You might be staying

3:20

at a creepy motel that has

3:22

an indoor pool. You know, it's

3:24

just, it's surprising when you need

3:26

one. And yeah, so that's my

3:28

unsolicited advice, everyone. That is great

3:30

advice. Listeners, take that to heart.

3:32

And again, it takes no room

3:34

in your suitcase or your handbag

3:37

or your carry-on. You can get

3:39

that swimsuit in there. Always. And

3:41

it's so light. Yes. All right.

3:43

We are going to take a

3:45

very quick break, but when we're

3:47

back, Vanessa and I will dive

3:49

into your questions. Stay with us

3:52

everyone. You don't wake up dreaming

3:54

of McDonald's fries? You wake up

3:56

dreaming of McDonald's fries? You wake

3:58

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capella.EDU. Welcome back. You're listening to

4:36

Dear Prudence. I'm Kristen Meinser and

4:38

here with us today is Vanessa

4:41

Zoltan. Vanessa, shall we get started

4:43

with our first letter of the

4:45

day? Let's do it. All right,

4:47

this one is titled, Not Actually

4:49

a Victim. I

4:58

met a loss over how to

5:00

handle my mother, 65, after a

5:02

10-month stay in my home with

5:05

my husband, 37, myself, 35, and

5:07

our small child. She moved in

5:09

because of financial struggles, and we

5:11

agreed on 18 months to let

5:13

her save up for a fresh

5:15

start and for us to get

5:18

some help with child care. It

5:20

felt mutually beneficial. While she was

5:22

a help with our son, her

5:24

extreme messiness, lack of personal hygiene,

5:26

and inability to take criticism created

5:28

tension, especially with my very type

5:31

A husband. My husband and I

5:33

had talked about my mom's flaws

5:35

extensively before offering her a place

5:37

to stay, and agreed to keep

5:39

our expectations very low in order

5:41

to not get frustrated with her.

5:44

We managed this by silently cleaning

5:46

up after her and avoiding confrontation,

5:48

knowing she lashes out at even

5:50

mild criticism. We intentionally didn't dwell

5:52

on the little roommate issues, and

5:55

instead tried to find joy in

5:57

her relationship with our son and

5:59

how we could go out for

6:01

dinner without having to hire a

6:03

sitter. What we didn't think about

6:05

was how my mother was going

6:08

to be an observer to almost

6:10

everything in... our home, and unbeknownst

6:12

to us, taking notes, every little

6:14

argument about the dishes, any little

6:16

sleep-deprived snapping at each other, any

6:18

stress-induced bickering, dealing with full-time jobs,

6:21

and a small child. She wasn't

6:23

around for the apologies we would

6:25

make over text the next day

6:27

or in bed that night, of

6:29

course. We have done couples therapy

6:31

on and have managed, even during

6:34

stressful times, to figure things out

6:36

as a team. I'm proud of

6:38

our relationship. especially since my parents

6:40

had a toxic one, before and

6:42

after their divorce. One day we

6:44

overheard her phone reading out loud

6:47

an article titled, What to do

6:49

when the husband is an abuser?

6:51

My mom must have hit a

6:53

button by accident to read what

6:55

was on her screen. She denied

6:58

looking it up, so we tried

7:00

to chalk it up to a

7:02

weird incident. Meanwhile, she began falling

7:04

asleep while watching my child, once

7:06

leaving my one-year-old unsupervised to wander

7:08

the house. I thoughtfully sat down

7:11

with her to break the news

7:13

that she couldn't babysit alone anymore.

7:15

She exploded, accusing me of ruining

7:17

her life, taking away her life's

7:19

purpose, and that the way I

7:21

was treating her was shameful. Her

7:24

behavior toward my husband worsened, picking

7:26

fights, calling my sister to complain

7:28

about him, and leaving the house

7:30

in anger after minor requests. When

7:32

I asked her to stay elsewhere

7:34

while I traveled for the weekend

7:37

to give everyone a breather, she

7:39

resisted, claiming she needed to stay

7:41

to protect my child from my

7:43

abusive husband. She began sharing accusations

7:45

with my family, including that he's

7:47

controlling spends my money. I make

7:50

more money than he does, but

7:52

we pool finances by choice, and

7:54

that I'm brainwashed by his patriarchal

7:56

family. None of this resonates with

7:58

me in the slightest. I felt

8:01

I had no choice but to

8:03

ask her to leave, fearing she'd

8:05

repeat these claims to someone obligated

8:07

to act on them. She left

8:09

earlier than planned, and bewilderingly in

8:11

even worse financial shape than when

8:14

she arrived. but she's continued bad-mouthing

8:16

my husband to others and insisting

8:18

I'm blinded by him. She has

8:20

repeatedly told family members not to

8:22

tell me, of course they do,

8:24

and have sent me screenshots, or

8:27

to report anything to her. authorities.

8:29

Now, we have limited contact. Corgial

8:31

at family gatherings, occasional texts, but

8:33

I'm hesitant to let her back

8:35

into my life. I'm afraid she'll

8:37

gather evidence again, or restart her

8:40

campaign against my husband. She's never

8:42

apologized for anything in her life.

8:44

She's never apologized for anything in

8:46

her life, so I know not

8:48

to expect one now. We were

8:50

previously very close, and she is

8:53

great with my son. I don't

8:55

want to feel anxious every time

8:57

she texts me. I don't want

8:59

to make things better with her.

9:01

He worries about her financial situation

9:04

and living situation, more than I

9:06

do. How do I navigate a

9:08

situation where my mom thinks I'm

9:10

in an abusive relationship? But I'm

9:12

not, and she won't be convinced

9:14

otherwise. We're making just now reading

9:17

through this letter. Vanessa, let's talk

9:19

about your faces, you're making it

9:21

why. First of all, I want

9:23

to say that this is a

9:25

really complicated and difficult situation. I

9:27

think that there's a lot in

9:30

here. My faces were about the

9:32

moments in which this grandmother left

9:34

her grandson in danger. That seems

9:36

like a really valid reason to

9:38

put up a boundary. And then

9:40

I think that there were just

9:43

a lot of really reasonable boundaries

9:45

put up in this letter that,

9:47

you know, this woman's mother is

9:49

not respecting. And that is problematic

9:51

and really tense. Yeah. What about

9:53

you? Yeah. My faces were the

9:56

same way, but also how... It

9:58

seems that this grandmother is projection.

10:00

a lot. Our letter writer here

10:02

has said that they have worked

10:04

really hard in therapy with their

10:06

husband to try to not repeat

10:09

the same patterns of the toxic

10:11

parents and their toxic marriage and

10:13

so on. So our letter writer

10:15

knows that their marriage isn't perfect,

10:17

they snap at each other, they

10:20

apologize later. they try to talk

10:22

through things and but it does

10:24

sound like grandma maybe didn't work

10:26

on those issues it sounds like

10:28

grandma might still have some frustration

10:30

over that it sounds like you know I'm

10:32

just gonna read a line here she accuses

10:35

me of ruining her life taking

10:37

away her life's purpose and that

10:39

the way I treat her is

10:41

shameful and it's like it doesn't

10:43

sound like you're doing anything like

10:45

that If anything, maybe that was

10:47

happening in her toxic marriage earlier

10:49

in life, but it sounds like

10:51

letterwriter, you're trying to help her

10:53

get back on her feet financially,

10:55

you're trying to be patient when,

10:58

you know, there's roommate issues, as

11:00

you call them, which I love

11:02

that term, roommate issues. Is this

11:04

a fight over parenting or is

11:06

this a fight about sharing the

11:08

same space? Sometimes those things

11:10

are not the same thing. Sometimes

11:12

they're separate things. But it sounds

11:15

like you've tried your best here

11:17

and it sounds like your mom has

11:19

her own version of reality. And

11:21

her version of reality is not

11:23

what reality is. I was saying that

11:26

maybe she's projecting, but there might be

11:28

some other things going on here too.

11:30

Something that occurred to me is her

11:32

falling asleep, her struggling with

11:35

money, or being erratic with money.

11:37

her confusing reality. This might also

11:40

be cognitive decline. I know 65

11:42

isn't ancient by any means, but

11:44

unfortunately some people in their 60s

11:46

do start to have some cognitive decline.

11:49

I'm not trying to make excuses, by

11:51

the way, for grandma here, but it

11:53

just sounds like she is not living

11:56

in the same reality as you, and

11:58

regardless of whether it's. on purpose, on

12:00

accident, psychological baggage, you don't have to put

12:02

up with it. And I'm glad you're putting

12:04

up a boundary right now. And I think

12:06

that it's painful to put up boundaries sometimes.

12:09

We miss the best version of people sometimes

12:11

when we're having space from them. Sometimes we

12:13

think, oh, but you know, I used to

12:15

love it when A, B, and C. Oh,

12:17

we used to confide in each other about

12:19

this. Or, gosh, she was like this when

12:21

I was a little kid. And... You know

12:23

what? It's natural to sometimes miss those magic

12:25

moments, but putting up a boundary is to

12:27

protect your present self. And I think it's

12:29

absolutely the right thing to do. But the

12:31

big question here is, Vanessa, that we should

12:33

address, what we should do moving forward? What

12:35

should this letter write or do next? What

12:37

do you think? I know that this book

12:40

is very popular right now. There are two

12:42

versions of it. One is adult children of

12:44

emotionally immature parents and the other is disentangling

12:46

from emotionally immature relationships. And the big thing,

12:48

I love these books, and the big lesson

12:50

that I took from them is if somebody

12:52

does not want to hear you, they're not

12:54

going to hear you. And if somebody wants

12:56

to understand you, they're going to try to

12:58

understand. you. And this grandmother does not want

13:00

to understand her daughter. She wants to believe

13:02

that her daughter is in an abuse of

13:04

marriage because it validates some story that she

13:06

has. And so I think first of all

13:09

just accepting that there is... Nothing that you

13:11

can say that is going to change her

13:13

mind is really important. And it sounds like

13:15

the people around the grandmother don't believe the

13:17

grandmother, right? They're screenshotting and emailing the mom

13:19

figure and, you know, saying, like, this is

13:21

what's being said about you, nobody has called

13:23

the authorities. And so I do think, right,

13:25

and this is similar to what you were

13:27

saying, Kristen, but just grieving that this is

13:29

where you are. I think absolutely with boundaries

13:31

comes grief, you know, she's not going to

13:33

hear me. So yeah, I really do think

13:35

a lot of this is just about accepting

13:38

the limitations of this relationship. I often find

13:40

it helpful to say something one more time.

13:42

Once in order to make sure that you've

13:44

said everything that you want to say so

13:46

as long as you are telling me that

13:48

my husband is abusive I can't be close

13:50

to you as long as you are going

13:52

to say that I'm taking away your life's

13:54

purpose by protecting your grandson I can't you

13:56

know we can't talk about that whatever these

13:58

boundaries are articulating them one more time, but

14:00

then I think the thing to do is

14:02

just grieve that this is the situation that

14:04

you're in and right like maintain the boundary

14:07

and not drive yourself crazy by constantly questioning

14:09

this. She is going to have to change

14:11

her behavior before you question yourself. Yeah, absolutely.

14:13

What about you? Oh, Vanessa, such wise advice,

14:15

such wise advice. I 100% agree with you

14:17

on all of this. Letterator, I would also

14:19

encourage you. to make sure you're getting support

14:21

outside of all of this. You know, what

14:23

were things you were turning to your mom

14:25

for? Can you get that from other friends?

14:27

Can you make new friends? Can you join

14:29

a support group? Or can you consider maybe

14:31

seeing a counselor one-on-one separate from the marriage

14:33

counselor you're seeing with your partner? Because it

14:35

can be really hard to extricate ourselves. from

14:38

a problematic loved one, especially when it's apparent,

14:40

especially when they were the ones who trained

14:42

you how to love from the time you

14:44

were born. And maybe they trained you in

14:46

a way that wasn't safe or healthy.

14:48

and maybe it's time

14:50

for you to take

14:52

care of yourself so

14:54

that you can love

14:56

yourself differently. You can

14:58

love yourself in a

15:00

way that you deserve

15:02

and make sure that

15:04

you're modeling that for

15:07

your children as well.

15:09

Because, you know, you

15:11

probably are a wonderful

15:13

parent and doing all

15:15

the good things you

15:17

can with your kid.

15:19

But, you know, every

15:21

once in a while

15:23

when we're brought up

15:25

with a parent like

15:27

grandma here, sometimes there's

15:29

a chance that some

15:31

of that will trickle

15:33

into how we treat

15:36

our kids or how

15:38

we treat ourselves and

15:40

our kids will see

15:42

like, oh, mommy's really

15:44

mean to herself. Is

15:46

that the way moms

15:48

are? So just please

15:50

also take care of

15:52

yourself for your own

15:54

sake, for your marriage's

15:56

sake, for your family's

15:58

sake and so on,

16:00

but mostly for you

16:02

because you're number one

16:05

here. So do that

16:07

and get all the

16:09

love you can in

16:11

the healthy ways you

16:13

can. And know that

16:15

you're not alone, by

16:17

the way, too. A

16:19

lot of folks in

16:21

the world have been

16:23

through this. There are

16:25

a lot of books

16:27

out there. There are

16:29

a lot of people

16:31

you can turn to

16:33

and lean on and

16:36

we just wish you

16:38

the best here. You're

16:40

gonna get through this.

16:42

It sucks, but you

16:44

can get through this.

16:46

Can I just add

16:48

one other thing, Kristin?

16:50

At the end here,

16:52

the other thing I

16:54

wanna say is, letter

16:56

writer, if you feel

16:58

like it's gonna weigh

17:00

on you and your

17:02

conscience to not be

17:05

helping in the way

17:07

that you can, I

17:09

really do think it

17:11

is okay to sit

17:13

down with your husband

17:15

and say to him,

17:17

hey, you're really anxious

17:19

about this, right? Like

17:21

that's what the letter

17:23

writer says, that the

17:25

husband is really anxious

17:27

about this. Let's figure

17:29

out what we can

17:31

do to support mom

17:34

enough that our conscience

17:36

is assuaged, but not

17:38

make it about what

17:40

your mother is demanding.

17:42

So maybe the two

17:44

of you can give

17:46

$200 a month. Maybe

17:48

the two of you

17:50

can send a DoorDash

17:52

gift card you know,

17:54

weekly, but it has

17:56

to be about what

17:58

you can give and

18:00

it can't be about

18:03

what your mother is

18:05

expecting from you. because she's going

18:07

to constantly change her expectations. But I absolutely

18:09

don't think it is crossing a boundary objectively

18:11

if you do want to assuage your conscience

18:14

by helping. Nor do I

18:16

think it's necessary. Yeah. Oh, that is

18:18

so kind and so generous

18:20

of you to suggest

18:22

Vanessa. Yeah, letterwriter, if

18:24

that's something that works

18:26

for you. if you need that

18:28

for your conscience. Exactly. Yes.

18:30

Do it for yourself. Do

18:32

it? Exactly. Because you deserve

18:34

to feel good. Yes. Exactly.

18:36

It can't be for her

18:38

because it's she's going to

18:40

constantly be changing what she

18:43

says she needs, right? Like

18:45

you can't control how she's

18:47

going to spend her money.

18:49

It has to be for you. Yes.

18:51

Yes. Okay, let's move on to

18:53

our next letter. It is titled,

18:55

socially confused. I'm

18:57

in my early 20s currently dating

18:59

someone for the first time. I live

19:01

with my somewhat overprotective

19:03

Christian parents and they've never

19:06

spoken to me about dating beyond

19:08

joking about it as an unlikely

19:10

possibility. Yes, I know about safe

19:12

sex, reducing pregnancy risk, and

19:14

so on, but that was

19:16

independent research. If things turn serious, I'd

19:19

like to introduce this person to my

19:21

parents, but I have no idea how.

19:23

How do people do this? A lunch date?

19:25

Inviting them all to the same event?

19:28

Dinner seems overly formal

19:30

and intimidating, but is that the

19:32

way to go? I have no idea how

19:34

to even bring up the idea that I

19:36

could be dating someone to my parents

19:39

either. And complicating things, this

19:41

person is not Christian, which

19:43

is probably fine, but also

19:46

might be an issue for my mother. I

19:48

feel too old for this. Everything I

19:50

can find online is for teenagers.

19:52

Any advice? Like at all, like

19:54

you're in your early 20s, your

19:57

early 20s, early to mid 20s

19:59

is the time when a lot

20:01

of us are introducing our first

20:03

sweethearts to our families. So I

20:05

don't know where you got this

20:08

impression that you're too old for

20:10

this. Early 20s? The only thing

20:12

you're too old for is to

20:14

become an Olympic gymnast. Other than

20:16

that you are not too old

20:18

for anything. Yeah. I can't think

20:21

of anything else. Yeah, that's about

20:23

it. Yeah, you are not too

20:25

old. You are pretty much median

20:27

age as far as I know.

20:29

This is just typical. So please

20:31

don't beat yourself up feeling like,

20:34

oh no, I'm an outlier, I

20:36

don't know what's going on. No,

20:38

you are not too old at

20:40

all. Let's just get that out

20:42

of the way first. And also

20:44

I want you to take that

20:46

phrase out of your vocabulary for

20:49

the rest of your life. Yes.

20:51

Yes. whether it's vocationally, socially, you

20:53

know, whatever it is financially, I

20:55

think a lot of us get

20:57

caught up in, oh, I'm too

20:59

old for this, you're not too

21:02

old. You're not too old. Yeah.

21:04

Stop saying that going forward. But

21:06

you didn't ask about that. You

21:08

asked about how to introduce your

21:10

sweetheart to your parents. And this

21:12

one has my heart warm. my

21:15

face smiling because this seems like

21:17

a pretty easy low-stakes one to

21:19

me. How do you feel Vanessa?

21:21

Yeah, it's a good problem, right?

21:23

Yes. And those are the best

21:25

kinds of problems. I just think

21:27

the advice I want to give

21:30

is that awkward is not bad.

21:32

And uncomfortable is not bad, right?

21:34

Like it... I mean, I have

21:36

advice as to how you can

21:38

do this, but I just want

21:40

to say, it might be awkward.

21:43

It might be a little uncomfortable.

21:45

That's not the same thing as

21:47

having a major conflict, you know,

21:49

having this, you know, relationship disrupting.

21:51

It might be a little uncomfortable

21:53

and everybody has survived mildly, socially

21:56

uncomfortable situations. And so I just

21:58

don't think that that should be

22:00

the goal. Yeah. Be okay with

22:02

a little... bit of awkwardness 100%.

22:04

I mean, first day of work,

22:06

would we never go to work

22:08

again? Right, exactly. For stay of

22:11

school, you know, so many things

22:13

on life are a little bit

22:15

awkward. First time taking a city

22:17

bus by yourself, a little awkward,

22:19

but you get used to it

22:21

and then it's just life and

22:24

it's totally normal and fine and

22:26

it's totally normal and fine and

22:28

it's just... a few very logistical

22:30

things here that might help you

22:32

as well, in addition to that,

22:34

you know, mental mind space of

22:37

being okay with awkwardness, I would

22:39

recommend, you're asking like, what is

22:41

the situation you should do it

22:43

in? If it feels low stakes

22:45

to grab lunch together at a

22:47

public place where you know it's

22:49

like gonna only be an hour,

22:52

do that. Keep at low stakes.

22:54

Don't feel like you have to

22:56

bring this person to... Christmas or

22:58

you know a giant Fourth of

23:00

July picnic to meet everybody in

23:02

the family. You don't have to

23:05

do anything like that. Keep at

23:07

low stakes. That's number one. Number

23:09

two, maybe prepare them in advance

23:11

if you feel like your mom's

23:13

fixation on religion really is a

23:15

fixation and not just an interest.

23:18

Maybe just warn your mom in

23:20

advance so it doesn't like... bring

23:22

the record to a screeching halt

23:24

in the middle of lunch, if

23:26

that's something that you feel is

23:28

important to warn your mom about.

23:30

But I'm not saying you have

23:33

to do hours and hours of

23:35

homework here, just a little bit

23:37

of prepping, you know, in advance.

23:39

And I think that will make

23:41

you feel more prepared when you

23:43

go in there. And sometimes feeling

23:46

prepared can help us feel a

23:48

little less anxious. Yeah, I totally

23:50

agree with you. I don't think

23:52

that. bringing him to a big

23:54

family event, nor necessarily into your

23:56

parents' house is the way to

23:59

go for the very first meeting.

24:01

I'm a big fan of, like

24:03

you said, Kristen, something with a

24:05

finite amount of time, but also

24:07

something where talking isn't the only

24:09

activity. So going on a walk,

24:11

right, like saying, doing something where

24:14

if there's a lull in conversation,

24:16

the silence has a purpose to

24:18

it, or there is something that

24:20

someone can remark on, I find

24:22

to be really helpful, including lunch,

24:24

right? You can be chewing and

24:27

everything is fine. So I wouldn't

24:29

make the meeting and talking the

24:31

only activity. Yes, I totally agree

24:33

with that. And if there's an

24:35

activity that your parents really like,

24:37

that might be the thing to

24:40

try to. Like, if your parents

24:42

are really into shuffle board, say,

24:44

hey, can we join you for

24:46

a shuffle board game on Thursday?

24:48

And that way you're doing an

24:50

activity, you're doing something your parents

24:52

love. You know, it doesn't have

24:55

to be shuffle board, whatever it

24:57

is they're into. But yeah, finite,

24:59

casual, brief, and prep a little

25:01

bit, but it's going to be

25:03

fine. Please. be okay with a

25:05

little bit of awkwardness, going optimisticly,

25:08

and know it's going to be

25:10

okay. It's going to be fine,

25:12

let her write her. The only

25:14

other thing I'll add is that

25:16

while I agree that it shouldn't

25:18

be a big family activity, I

25:21

do think it's fine to invite

25:23

him to come along to something

25:25

you were already going to do

25:27

with. I don't know, have Sunday

25:29

dinner, right? You can say to

25:31

your parents, hey, can we have

25:33

Sunday dinner out? And right that

25:36

way, you're just, you're making it

25:38

a little bit less of a

25:40

big deal because you're integrating someone

25:42

into something that everybody would be

25:44

doing anyway. So that's just another

25:46

way to potentially bring the stakes

25:49

down a little bit. Oh, that's

25:51

a great suggestion. That's fantastic. Yeah.

25:53

And again, that helps it be

25:55

a little bit on your parents'

25:57

terms too. It's like, like, Yeah,

25:59

I think that's great. And yeah,

26:02

it's going to be a little

26:04

weird the first time. It's going

26:06

to be fine after that. Get

26:08

better and better than more you

26:10

do it. Yep. All right, you're

26:12

listening to Dear Prudence. We're going

26:14

to take a quick break, and

26:17

when we come back, we'll be

26:19

reading more of your letters.

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Cosmetic.com. And we are

28:29

here to answer your

28:31

letters. The next one is

28:33

titled, Need Support Here.

28:36

I supported my sister unquestionably

28:38

through her divorce and

28:41

her ex getting remarried.

28:43

The woman was the devil incarnate,

28:46

according to her. But her recent

28:48

experience has left me shaken on

28:50

that. I have been dating a

28:53

single father for a year and

28:55

have met the kids as a

28:57

friend. We were talking about moving

29:00

in when his ex blew up

29:02

like a boundary stomping volcano. She

29:04

demanded to meet me one-on-one to

29:06

vet me. No. She demanded to

29:09

have access to my private socials.

29:11

No. She demanded to have access

29:13

to my private socials. No. She

29:16

demanded to have my number and

29:18

email because she needed it. No.

29:20

And she has a two-bedroom apartment.

29:23

One of the reasons why I love my

29:25

partner so much is that he is a

29:27

firm and attentive father and refuses to dance

29:29

to her extreme antics, but it's still extremely

29:31

exhausting. I complain about this to my sister,

29:34

thinking she would give me some emotional support.

29:36

Instead, she attacked. Of course this woman has

29:38

the right to try and dictate my life,

29:40

my partners and our relationship. She is the

29:43

mom. It doesn't matter if she blew up

29:45

the family with the constant cheating or when

29:47

CPS got involved, she was the one sent

29:49

to parenting classes and custody went to my

29:51

partner. She is right and I am just

29:54

wrong for apparently existing and loving my

29:56

partner. Since then, any conversation circles back

29:58

to how I am doing. things wrong.

30:00

If I take the girls shopping,

30:02

I am overstepping. If I don't

30:04

cook every meal, the kids ask

30:06

of me, I am not doing

30:09

enough. Forget asking that the kids

30:11

do their homework or remind them

30:13

about screen time. It is like

30:15

in any situation, my sister will

30:17

automatically align against me. I told

30:19

her finally that maybe she needs

30:21

to look in a mirror if

30:23

she finds such solidarity with someone

30:25

who is more bent on trying

30:27

to screw over her ex than

30:29

successfully co-parent. I know it was

30:31

a low blow, but I have

30:33

been sick of this for months.

30:35

My sister called me something disgusting

30:38

and then blocked my number. I

30:40

love her, but I don't understand

30:42

why she can't even feign the

30:44

same support I have given her

30:46

over the years. I don't, I

30:48

have two brothers. Did you have

30:50

a sister? I do have a

30:52

sister and sister dynamics, sometimes they

30:54

can be a little confusing and

30:56

complicated. Yes. And sisters are people

30:58

who. you know, in a perfect

31:00

world are always on our side,

31:02

but sometimes sisters are the ones

31:04

who are most likely to push

31:07

our buttons and take things personally

31:09

that they shouldn't as well. It's

31:11

a complicated relationship for some folks

31:13

out there. It has been at

31:15

times for me. But yeah, this

31:17

is a long way of saying,

31:19

letter writer, you're not alone. A

31:21

lot of us sometimes have sister

31:23

drama. But let's get to the

31:25

issue at hand here beyond you're

31:27

not alone. Let's talk about... how

31:29

to deal with your sister, what

31:31

your sister's doing, and what you

31:34

can do for yourself. Vanessa, I

31:36

know that you and I are

31:38

on the same page here, that

31:40

this is kind of a two-pronged

31:42

issue here, a sister issue, and

31:44

then another issue. Let's, should we

31:46

start with the other issues first?

31:48

Yeah, I would love that. I

31:50

am a stepman, and so I've

31:52

been here, right, where you are

31:54

into... greeting into kids' lives. And

31:56

I think of my stepkids, you

31:58

know, I've known them now for

32:00

eight years, they are mine, you

32:03

know, and I have been really

32:05

lucky, their mom was so supportive

32:07

from really early on about my

32:09

relationship with them. That said, I,

32:11

regardless of the behavior of the

32:13

mom, I do think it is

32:15

okay for this mom to want

32:17

to vet the letterwriter a little

32:19

bit. Right? Obviously having a key

32:21

to someone's house is a ridiculous

32:23

thing to ask. But wanting to

32:25

meet the person who your kids

32:27

will be living with part of

32:29

the time or all of the

32:32

time, this just seems like a

32:34

really reasonable thing to ask. And

32:36

so and I think it... potentially

32:38

leads into why the sister is

32:40

having a big reaction. The sister

32:42

is obviously having a big reaction

32:44

for a lot of reasons and

32:46

a disproportionate reaction, but part of

32:48

it could be that she disagrees

32:50

with you. I also think it's

32:52

fine for this mom to have...

32:54

your phone number, potentially. Again, I

32:56

don't fully understand any, you know,

32:58

CPS has been called. This is

33:01

obviously a really complicated situation. And

33:03

the focus has to be on

33:05

what's best for the kids. And

33:07

I do think that their mom,

33:09

knowing you, is what's best for

33:11

the kids. It's going to make

33:13

her feel more comfortable or not.

33:15

And then you can deal with

33:17

that, right? But I just, I

33:19

really do think some of these

33:21

things are reasonable. Yeah, I think

33:23

a couple of them are reasonable

33:25

too. I think that it totally

33:28

makes sense to have your email

33:30

address and your phone number. What

33:32

if there's a family emergency? What

33:34

if they, you know, need to

33:36

talk with a parental figure and

33:38

they can't get through to your

33:40

partner? I just think there are

33:42

reasons why phone numbers and email

33:44

addresses should be shared amongst all

33:46

of you here. I just think

33:48

it's for the safety of the

33:50

kids. And I would also agree

33:52

that perhaps a meeting, it doesn't

33:54

have to be a one-on-one meeting,

33:57

but it could be a roundtable

33:59

meeting between all three parental figures.

34:01

You as the potential stepparent or

34:03

the acting stepparent, the mom, the

34:05

dad, all of you can sit

34:07

together. have a conversation, doesn't have

34:09

to be a long one, maybe

34:11

20 minutes over a cup of

34:13

coffee, just let's meet each other,

34:15

just a heads up, this is

34:17

what I do for a living,

34:19

this is what I'm bringing to

34:21

the table, these are my interests,

34:23

this is a typical Saturday spent

34:26

with the kids, just go for

34:28

some basic things like that. you

34:30

don't need to give your blood

34:32

type, you don't need to give

34:34

them your complete psychological profile or

34:36

anything like that, but just a

34:38

little face to face to maybe

34:40

humanize each other. And not just

34:42

humanize each other, but think about

34:44

this is the other adult in

34:46

these kids' lives. This is the

34:48

other person who really loves them.

34:50

And so I think seeing each

34:52

other face to face can really

34:55

bring those emotions and realities to

34:57

the four. And it might go

34:59

badly, right? It really might go

35:01

badly. And then I think that,

35:03

you know, stepping back and saying,

35:05

look, I've done what I can,

35:07

but I just, I, I think

35:09

it's a really reasonable request if

35:11

my kid is going to regularly

35:13

be spending the night with someone,

35:15

I want to know who, right?

35:17

When I set up a play

35:19

date for my kids, I want

35:21

to know the parents that my

35:24

kid is going to be staying

35:26

in their house overnight. So, yeah.

35:28

I ask a lot of my

35:30

kids, friends, parents if there's a

35:32

gun in the house because I

35:34

don't want them to stay at

35:36

the night where there's a gun

35:38

in the house, right? Like I

35:40

really do think understanding where your

35:42

kids when they're little are spending

35:44

their time is. totally reasonable. Yeah.

35:46

All right. With that caveat all

35:48

out of the way, let's talk

35:51

about the sister stuff though. Yeah.

35:53

Because there is a lot of

35:55

your sister assuming the worst of

35:57

you. That you're a bad person

35:59

because you don't make every single

36:01

dish the kids want you to

36:03

make at all times. Which by

36:05

the way is insanity. No. Sometimes

36:07

you get what you get and

36:09

you don't complain. Sometimes you're getting

36:11

grilled cheese and tomato soup tonight

36:13

and you're not getting lasagna. Okay?

36:15

That's just the way it is

36:17

and it doesn't mean that you're

36:20

a bad stepparent. It doesn't mean

36:22

that you're a bad person. That's

36:24

just the way it is sometimes.

36:26

Yep. And so your sister is

36:28

really assuming the worst of you.

36:30

And let's talk about that and

36:32

how to address it. And one

36:34

thing I'm going to suggest is

36:36

possibly. Stop talking about this with

36:38

your sister with your sister. You

36:40

have a lot of other things

36:42

you can talk about. Sisters have

36:44

so much in common. You have

36:46

history. Plus you also have other

36:49

things in your day-to-day life, I'm

36:51

assuming, that make you who you

36:53

are. Friends, work, hobbies, activities, what

36:55

book you're reading, what TV show

36:57

you watched last night. There's so

36:59

much you and your sister can

37:01

bond over. And I'm not saying

37:03

to keep it superficial. I'm saying

37:05

you can go deep on other

37:07

subjects that are not this particular

37:09

subject. And I know that sometimes

37:11

it's hard to do that and

37:13

I'm not telling you to like...

37:15

edit your whole life and pretend

37:18

it's not there, I'm just saying.

37:20

At this point, it sounds like

37:22

this is a touchy subject for

37:24

your sister. It sounds like she's

37:26

recently gone through a lot with

37:28

her own divorce, and maybe now

37:30

is the time to just step

37:32

back a little bit. In your

37:34

mind, you feel okay with your

37:36

decisions that you're making as a

37:38

potential stepparent. You're not seeking her

37:40

counsel or advice. It's okay for

37:42

you just to talk about this

37:45

with other people and not your

37:47

sister. the first thing I would

37:49

recommend. I have a few other

37:51

things, but Vanessa, I don't want

37:53

to monopolize here. What other advice

37:55

do you have here for the

37:57

sister relationship? I mostly just agree.

37:59

with you, I think that it's

38:01

so hard to be in relationship

38:03

with someone on a dynamic where

38:05

they don't assume good intentions in

38:07

you. And that spirals, right? That

38:09

when someone doesn't assume good intentions

38:11

in you, you understandably get defensive

38:14

and that just can become more

38:16

and more fraught. And I think

38:18

that saying that once to your

38:20

sister, it feels like you're not

38:22

assuming good intentions in me in

38:24

this. And so I don't... think

38:26

we should talk about it as

38:28

much. And I don't even think

38:30

that you have to make an announcement.

38:32

I think that you can just steer

38:34

away from this topic with her. But no,

38:37

I think it's really, it is

38:39

nearly impossible to be intimate and

38:41

vulnerable with someone if they are

38:43

not going to assume good intentions

38:45

in you. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't

38:47

think this has to be a

38:49

forever off the table subject, but

38:51

it sounds like right now is

38:53

not a good time for this

38:56

particular subject. And you can talk

38:58

with other people about it, but just

39:00

not your sister. And I do want

39:02

to just give kudos to you, though,

39:04

because it does sound like you've been

39:06

trying here. It sounds like... It's not

39:09

easy to enter into the role of

39:11

a potential stepparent. Some of the conversations

39:13

can be really tough. It sounds like

39:15

you and your partner are doing your

39:18

best to draw boundaries. It sounds like

39:20

your partner's doing their best to protect

39:22

you from the angry X. It sounds

39:24

like everybody is doing the best they

39:27

can here. But so I just want

39:29

to, you know, kudos to you for that. But

39:31

also just protect yourself here.

39:33

You don't have to be exposed to

39:35

someone who does not. think the best

39:38

of you. And your sister does not

39:40

think the best of you right now

39:42

when it comes to parenting matters. One

39:44

more thing I want to say about that.

39:47

There is sometimes the tendency

39:49

for people who are quote unquote

39:51

real parents to think that

39:53

people who are quote unquote not

39:55

real parents, or not real

39:58

parents, or foster parents. to

40:00

think that they're not doing it

40:02

right. Yeah. And you don't know

40:04

what it's like because I I

40:06

birthed my children or you don't

40:08

know what it's like because these

40:11

children have been in my life

40:13

since they were babies. And I

40:15

hate that. I hate that sometimes

40:17

there are those parenting wars of

40:19

who's the real parent who's doing

40:22

it right. I don't know if

40:24

maybe this is something that also

40:26

is part of your sister's mindset

40:28

right now too, that you're not

40:30

a real parent, so what do

40:33

you know? I would just urge

40:35

you to consider that's not about

40:37

you, that's about her also. Just

40:39

remember that's her thing, that's not

40:41

you, you're doing the best you

40:43

can, and you know, there are

40:46

a couple of things where Vanessa

40:48

and I at the top of

40:50

this said, maybe you can consider

40:52

the excess feelings here and here,

40:54

maybe you can do this one

40:57

thing, like show your phone number,

40:59

but we assume the best of

41:01

you letter writer, we think you

41:03

have the best of intentions, your

41:05

sister should too, but... it may

41:08

be a factor also that she

41:10

doesn't see it as a real

41:12

parent, which sucks. And anybody who

41:14

is parenting a child and bringing

41:16

a child into their home, in

41:18

my mind, that's a real parent.

41:21

Absolutely. I also think it's just

41:23

really hurtful, right, when it sounds

41:25

like the letter writer really tried

41:27

to be supportive of their sister,

41:29

regardless of what... They were actually

41:32

thinking and to feel like that's

41:34

not reciprocated is really hurtful Yeah

41:36

So I I understand And and

41:38

so just right dealing with that

41:40

I I don't think that we

41:43

owe each other completely Silent support.

41:45

I think sometimes we can say

41:47

I support you I love you

41:49

I have concerns about this one

41:51

thing, but it doesn't sound like

41:53

that's what the sister is doing.

41:56

The sister is having this huge

41:58

emotional reaction, you know, accusing, and

42:00

name-calling. And so this just doesn't

42:02

seem to be about the letterwriter,

42:04

but is actually about the sister.

42:07

Yeah. So, letterwriter, take care of

42:09

yourself, draw that boundary, know that

42:11

you don't have to talk about

42:13

everything with your sister, and we

42:15

assume the best of intentions in

42:18

you, and please surround yourself with

42:20

other people who feel the same

42:22

way. Yeah. Okay, those are all

42:24

the questions we have for this

42:27

week, and it has been so

42:29

fun, and hopefully helpful. Vanessa, thank

42:31

you so much for joining us

42:34

on the show today. You are

42:36

incredibly wise. You're incredibly compassionate. You

42:38

give such great advice. You really

42:40

are wonderful. Thank you. Same to

42:43

you. And thank you so much

42:45

for thinking of me and having

42:47

me on. Of course. Can you

42:50

let our listeners know where they

42:52

can find more of you? Yes,

42:54

so I have two podcasts, one

42:56

called Hot and Bathered, in which

42:59

we look closely at romantic comedies

43:01

and analyze the ways that they

43:03

have impacted the way that we

43:06

see ourselves in the world. And

43:08

then I have a podcast called

43:10

Let's Ask Taylor Swift, in which

43:13

we look closely at her song

43:15

lyrics. And then I have a

43:17

book, praying with Jane Eyre. So

43:19

those are all the places. Excellent,

43:22

listeners, check all of those out.

43:24

Vanessa is just a font of

43:26

wisdom and kindness, and so all

43:29

of her work really exudes that.

43:31

And if you want more of

43:33

me, you can check out my

43:36

podcast. I host By the Book,

43:38

I host How to be Fine,

43:40

I host Mail Clinics Health Matters,

43:42

if you want more of a

43:45

medical perspective on wellness, I host

43:47

a lot of other shows too.

43:49

All right, do you need help

43:52

getting along with? partners, relatives, co-workers,

43:54

and people in general. Write to

43:56

Prudy. Go to slate.com/Prudy. That slate.com./P-R-U-D-I-E.

43:58

The Dear Prudence column publishes every

44:01

Thursday. Dear Prudence was produced this

44:03

week by Mora Curry and Vic

44:05

Whitley Barry. Editorial help from Paula

44:08

De Verona. Daisy Rosario is senior

44:10

supervising producer and. I'm your guest

44:12

prudence, Kristen Meinser. That's all for

44:15

this episode, but join us on

44:17

today's episode of Prudy Plus, where

44:19

Vanessa and I answer a question

44:21

from someone struggling to learn a

44:24

second language and maybe struggling with

44:26

more than that. Subscribe now on

44:28

Apple Podcasts by clicking try free

44:31

at the top of your show

44:33

page or visit slate.com/Prudy Plus to

44:35

get access wherever you listen. That

44:38

episode is available for you to

44:40

listen to listen to right now.

44:42

We'll see you over there. And

44:44

then there's this rapid montage of

44:47

newspaper stories about campaign aids and

44:49

White House officials getting convicted of

44:51

crimes, about audio tapes coming out

44:54

that prove Nixon's involvement in the

44:56

cover-up. The last story we see

44:58

is Nixon resigns. It takes a

45:01

little over a minute in the

45:03

movie. In real life it took

45:05

about two years. Five men were

45:07

arrested early Saturday while trying to

45:10

install eavesdropping equipment. It's known as

45:12

the Watergate incident. What was it

45:14

like to experience those two years

45:17

in real time? What were people

45:19

thinking and feeling as the break-in

45:21

at Democratic Party headquarters went from

45:23

a weird little caper to a

45:26

constitutional crisis that brought down the

45:28

president? The downfall of Richard Nixon

45:30

was stranger, wilder, and more exciting

45:33

than you can imagine. Over the

45:35

course of eight episodes, this show

45:37

is going to capture what it

45:40

was like to live through the

45:42

greatest political scandal of the 20th

45:44

century. With today's headlines once again

45:46

full of corruption, collusion, and dirty

45:49

tricks, it's time for another look

45:51

at the gate that started it

45:53

all. Subscribe to Slowburn now, wherever

45:56

you get your podcasts. you