0:00

This episode is brought to you by State

0:02

Farm. You might say all kinds of

0:04

stuff when things go wrong, but these are the

0:06

words you really need to remember. Like

0:08

a good neighbor, State Farm is

0:10

there. They've got options to fit

0:12

your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk

0:14

to your agent to choose the coverage you

0:16

need, have coverage options to protect the things

0:19

you value most, file a claim right on

0:21

the State Farm mobile app, and even reach

0:23

a real person when you need to talk

0:25

to someone. Like a good neighbor,

0:27

State Farm is there. Don't

0:31

miss your chance to spring into

0:33

deals at Lowe's. Right now, get

0:35

a free 60 volt Toro battery

0:37

when you purchase a select 60

0:39

volt Toro electric mower. Plus, buy

0:42

3 19 .3 ounce vegetable and herb

0:44

body plants for just $10. It's

0:46

time to give your yard a

0:48

grow up. Lowe's, we help, you save.

0:50

Valid to 423, selection varies by

0:52

location. While supplies last, discount taken at

0:55

time of purchase. Actual plant size

0:57

and selection varies by location. Excludes Alaska

0:59

and Hawaii. What is one sort

1:01

of fringe encounter that still kind of

1:03

troubles you to this day? We

1:05

had a case in

1:08

1993 well actually a

1:10

wave of sightings collectively

1:12

known as the Cosford

1:14

incident one guy was

1:16

so stunned by this huge

1:18

triangular shaped craft that he

1:20

leapt into his car and

1:23

started trying to chase it

1:25

with his family in the

1:27

back screaming at him to

1:29

stop. In this same encounter

1:31

there was a farmer who

1:33

saw this this craft very

1:35

low and he thought it's

1:37

so low he thought maybe

1:40

it landed and he went

1:42

up to the field and

1:44

all the cows in

1:46

the field we're standing

1:48

in a circle like

1:50

facing each other straight

1:52

out of the axe

1:54

fire whoa a whole

1:56

bunch of normal -looking

1:58

people all walked into an

2:00

art shop in central

2:02

London were there for

2:05

like a long time and and she

2:07

she just felt there was something

2:09

weird about these people and then after

2:11

a long time They made a

2:13

big show of coming up and buying

2:15

a single pencil. Like it

2:17

was like a big thing. And

2:20

then they handed over a

2:22

very high denomination bank note. And

2:24

when the woman went to give

2:26

them their change, they

2:28

looked confused. Like they didn't

2:30

understand the concept of

2:33

getting their change bag. And

2:35

she was so struck by this

2:37

that she phoned somebody afterwards and

2:39

said, there are aliens in my

2:41

shop. So you said you got

2:44

to know this woman quite well.

2:46

Was that afterwards did she have

2:48

any other encounters? One

2:50

that I would say was more

2:52

of a time slip. She was missing time?

2:55

Seeing somebody that looked

2:57

like herself from the

2:59

future. down

3:06

along the east coast of the United

3:08

States, Virginia -Beach kind of area. kind

3:12

of run along the beach, looked up

3:14

in the sky, and it's all purplish.

3:17

It looked like basically a stink. I

3:19

don't know. It looked like a stingray,

3:21

but without the tail. And

3:23

it was

3:26

translucent and a purplish

3:28

color. And it flew

3:31

over. It felt like

3:33

it was 100 yards above my head,

3:35

maybe even less. We interrupt this broadcast

3:37

for a message from Area 52. Just

3:39

a quick pause. Our brand

3:41

new Out of body, long sleeves

3:43

are now live. Available in

3:45

three colors, midnight black, analog sand,

3:47

or signal blue. They're heavyweight

3:49

with a clean design and built for the

3:52

curious. If you know, you know. Check

3:54

it out at area52 .shop, limited stock

3:56

only, and we will not be restocking

3:58

these. So get them all you can. Welcome,

4:02

Nicholas Pope. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely.

4:04

For those not familiar with Nick

4:06

Pope, you know, he might be

4:08

a familiar face to a lot

4:10

of you on the history channels,

4:12

Ancient Aliens, but prior to that

4:14

spent 21 years working for the

4:16

Ministry of Defense and also subsequently

4:18

worked for what is known as

4:20

the UFO desk over at the Ministry

4:23

as well. Very,

4:25

very interesting stuff. Also

4:27

an author wrote multiple books.

4:30

fiction and nonfiction, which is interesting. We'll

4:32

get into that as well. But

4:34

more famously, I think,

4:36

you know, did a lot of work

4:38

on the Rendlesham case as well.

4:41

So a lot to talk about today, Nick

4:43

Pope. I first of all, I want

4:45

to thank you for joining me in the

4:47

skiff. Thank you. It's good to be

4:49

here. Unlike David Grash, here we are in

4:51

the skiff. That's

4:54

hilarious. One day maybe. So.

4:58

As we get started, I'd like

5:00

to just maybe cover some, you

5:02

know, introductory grounds. And just for

5:04

the audience that might not be familiar with you

5:06

or your work, can you tell me a little bit

5:08

about, and we'll keep this

5:10

brief, but a little bit about

5:12

how you got started coming in from

5:14

the Ministry of Defense into Ufology? Sure

5:18

thing. Well, the Ministry of Defense

5:20

essentially is like a Department

5:22

of State in the UK. I

5:24

was there as a civilian employee, like you

5:27

say, for 21 years, they move you around

5:29

a lot. So I did lots of different

5:31

things. But yeah, from

5:33

1991 through to 1994, I

5:35

was posted to the so

5:37

-called UFO desk. And

5:39

the mission, basically, which I

5:41

chose to accept, was to

5:44

research and investigate the phenomenon

5:46

and assess the potential defense,

5:49

national security and safety of

5:51

flight implications. Yeah, I mean,

5:53

that is quite a hefty task.

5:55

Now, doing this back then,

5:57

you know, like today, this might not

5:59

seem so unheard of because of, you know,

6:01

the recent task force that's been appointed, but

6:03

also the other programs like OSAP and

6:05

ATIP and all this stuff. But back in

6:07

the 90s, like, I mean, this was

6:09

X files time. Yes, it

6:12

was. And that actually led to

6:14

a few. Inside a jokes

6:16

I guess I mean literally I would

6:18

be walking down the corridor in the

6:20

Ministry of Defense and people would whistle

6:22

the theme tune to the ex files

6:24

as I went past and say look

6:27

there he goes it's it's Nick spooky

6:29

Pope. Wow

6:31

how many people were working

6:33

in your department during that

6:35

time at the UFO desk.

6:38

Essentially it was just me

6:40

and admin support but obviously

6:42

we had. a network of

6:44

people that, whilst not

6:46

posted to that particular

6:48

operation, could be

6:51

called upon. So, for example,

6:53

we had instant access to

6:55

radar specialists, and radar

6:57

was obviously a big part

6:59

of any investigation. We had instant

7:01

access to intelligence, community, imagery,

7:05

analysis, resources, and capabilities.

7:09

the Met Office, the Royal

7:11

Greenwich Observatory, it's all about

7:13

trying to bring in experts,

7:15

whether they're astronomers, meteorologists,

7:17

radar experts, whatever

7:19

they are, you know, whatever

7:21

you need. It's like a toolkit

7:23

that you have. Right.

7:26

Very interesting. Being like a

7:28

one man team for that, is that

7:30

difficult? Would it not have been a

7:33

lot easier to have several people on

7:35

these cases? It would have

7:37

been and had we had

7:39

more resources. Absolutely. That's well,

7:41

you know, there is no

7:43

manager or very few managers who

7:45

don't want more resources, more people

7:47

on the team. I would have

7:49

loved to have had somebody full

7:52

time, you know, like a radar

7:54

person, a psychologist that

7:56

would have been

7:58

useful. But, but,

8:00

you know, this was the

8:02

time when this subject. even

8:04

within government was more fringe

8:06

than it is now. I

8:09

mean, now particularly in the

8:11

US, of course, we have,

8:13

as you mentioned, the recently

8:15

established task force on the

8:17

declassification of federal secrets. We've

8:20

had UFO related provisions in

8:22

every National Defense Authorization Act

8:24

for several years now. We've

8:26

had classified briefings in Congress,

8:29

public hearings, NASA doing

8:31

a report. So if I was

8:33

doing that job now, I'm sure I would

8:35

have had more resources. But at the

8:37

time, yeah, it was pretty much me and

8:39

admin support. And it's,

8:41

yeah, there's a lot on your

8:43

shoulders. I forgot

8:46

to turn on my oscilloscopes.

8:48

Very important for this interview

8:50

that these oscilloscopes are turned

8:52

on. There,

8:56

I mean, you've probably looked at

8:58

a lot of cases from 1991

9:00

to 94. And in the 90s,

9:02

obviously, I mean, there was a

9:04

rampant surge in especially mass sightings,

9:06

you know, going from obviously, you

9:09

know, 97, which we just celebrated

9:11

the anniversary of the Phoenix lights,

9:13

but also you had, you know,

9:15

Ruiz and Bobway, you had Virginia,

9:17

these, these pretty big cases. Did

9:20

you ever encounter or

9:22

investigate any of the mass sightings

9:24

that happened during that time or prior? Not

9:27

outside of the UK. This was

9:30

one of the very interesting things

9:32

in a way. Our terms of

9:34

reference were really tight. And

9:36

because of the, I guess,

9:38

political sensitivities about this. And I

9:40

mean that in terms of

9:42

some people would say, you know,

9:44

this is all nonsense. Why

9:46

are you wasting taxpayers' money on

9:48

it? So we had to be very

9:50

careful with this. Our

9:52

terms of reference were

9:55

tightly drawn to

9:57

defending the UK. So it was

9:59

like, if there's something in our airspace, we need

10:01

to know what it is. That's

10:03

legitimate business. Going and looking

10:05

at something that's happened in

10:07

Africa or even in the United

10:10

States or elsewhere in Europe,

10:12

that would have been like, well,

10:14

why are we doing that?

10:16

Sure, I see. I was aware

10:18

of things like that going

10:20

on. But it was not for

10:22

me to actually write in an official

10:24

capacity, you weren't you were kind

10:27

of like restricting yourself to not, you

10:29

know, delve into other

10:31

people's business. Yes. Okay,

10:33

well, I mean, obviously, there's a lot of cases in

10:36

the UK as well that have happened. a

10:39

little bit prior to that. And

10:41

subsequently afterwards, even

10:43

recently, the Lake

10:45

and Heath Air Force Base

10:47

is obviously famous for multiple sightings

10:49

going back all the way,

10:51

I think to the 50s. Yes.

10:54

But I mean, looking at

10:56

all that, these are all

10:59

sort of official radar and

11:01

military personnel related. Did you

11:03

investigate any sort of

11:05

civilian the

11:08

witnesses or witnesses to civilian

11:10

events that have happened. Yes,

11:12

we did. And in fact, we

11:15

were a public facing

11:17

program rather like the

11:19

old US Air Force Project

11:21

Blue Book. We

11:24

did do classified work, but most of

11:26

what we did on a day

11:28

to day basis was unclassified. I think

11:30

it's like Avi Loeb says, you

11:32

can't classify the skies. Right. And

11:35

I would say, although we

11:37

concentrated on military cases because

11:39

they were often ones where

11:41

you had access to the

11:43

witnesses, you knew that those

11:45

people were reliable. When pilots

11:47

tell you about encounters and

11:49

when it's particularly if it's

11:51

corroborated by radar evidence, there's

11:54

something in terms of

11:56

evidence, data,

11:59

you can get into that. That being said,

12:01

80, 85, 90 percent of

12:03

the cases that I looked at,

12:05

which are two or three

12:07

hundred each year, probably came from

12:09

the public. So

12:11

as much as I'm interested in

12:14

the military's perspective of UFOs, I

12:16

find myself, as you can see,

12:18

all these books behind me here

12:20

are all related to civilian encounters. What

12:23

is one sort of fringe encounter

12:25

that still kind of troubles you to

12:27

this day that you might have

12:29

that you might have like that might have

12:31

stuck with you after investigating it? We

12:34

had a case In 1993,

12:36

well actually a wave of

12:38

sightings, collectively known as the

12:40

Cosford Incident. The NBA 82

12:42

game grind is done. And

12:44

now the real fun begins.

12:46

The NBA playoffs are here.

12:48

And DraftKings Sportsbook has you

12:50

covered as an official sports

12:53

betting partner of the NBA. Make

12:55

it a playoff run to

12:57

remember with DraftKings. Download the DraftKings

12:59

Sportsbook app and use code

13:01

FIELDGOL. That's code FIELDGOL. For new

13:04

customers to get $200 in

13:06

bonus bets when you bet just

13:08

five bucks. Only on DraftKings.

13:10

The crown is yours. Gambling prize.

13:12

Problem Call 1 -800 -GAMBLER In

13:14

New York, Call 877 -8 -HOPEN -Y

13:16

or Text -HOPEN -Y 467 -369 In

13:18

Connecticut, Help is Available for Problem

13:20

Gambling Call 888 -789 -7777 or

13:22

Visit ccpg .org Please Play Responsibly

13:25

On behalf of Boothill Casino and

13:27

Resorting, Kansas 21 and Over

13:29

Age and Eligibility Varies by Jurisdiction

13:31

Void in Ontario New Customers

13:33

Only Bonus Beds Expire 168 Hours

13:35

After Issuance Four Additional

13:37

Terms and Responsible Gaming Resources

13:39

CDKNG .CO this

13:42

episode is brought to you by

13:44

Shopify forget the frustration of

13:46

picking commerce platforms when you switch

13:49

your business to Shopify the

13:51

global commerce platform that supercharges your

13:53

selling wherever you sell. With

13:55

Shopify, you'll harness the same intuitive

13:57

features, trusted apps, and powerful

14:00

analytics used by the world's leading

14:02

brands. Sign up today for your

14:04

$1 per month trial period

14:06

at Shopify .com slash tech, all

14:08

lowercase. That's Shopify .com slash tech. But

14:21

most of it never makes it past a sketch

14:23

or a shaky interview. Until

14:26

now. You see, Artlist

14:28

just launched an AI video and

14:30

image generator, but this isn't

14:32

your typical AI toy. It's

14:34

built for creators, for people who

14:36

tell stories through visuals, like us. Let

14:39

me show you something. You see

14:41

a real witness described seeing a circular

14:43

disc -shaped craft off the right wingtip of

14:45

his flight to Japan in 1965. And

14:48

until now, this... the best

14:50

photo we had. So

14:52

we typed in that prompt, and within seconds, well,

14:55

the image came to life. Lit

14:58

by the setting sun, hovering

15:00

silently and ominously beside the plane,

15:02

there it was. But here's

15:04

where it gets wild. You see, with Artlist's

15:06

tools, we turned it into a full video scene.

15:13

With sound design,

15:15

footage, music,

15:18

and even color

15:20

grading. We

15:23

built a moment from a single sentence

15:25

and now we're reconstructing history frame by

15:27

frame. So go to Artlist today or

15:29

click the link in my description to

15:31

try it out for yourself. Artlist

15:34

AI, powered by

15:36

vision, used by believers. And

15:39

although there were police

15:41

and military sightings in

15:43

that, in a way

15:45

the most interesting cases did come from

15:47

the public. Literally, for example, One

15:50

guy was so stunned by

15:52

this huge triangular shaped craft

15:54

that he was witnessing that

15:56

he leapt into his car

15:58

and started trying to chase

16:01

it, driving along the road,

16:03

keeping it in view with

16:05

his family in the back

16:07

screaming at him to stop

16:09

because they saw it too

16:11

and were scared, whereas he

16:13

was excited. In

16:16

this same encounter, there was

16:18

a farmer who saw this

16:21

craft very low and he

16:23

thought it's so low, he

16:25

thought maybe it landed in

16:27

one of his fields and

16:29

he went up to the

16:32

field and I think all

16:34

the cows in the field

16:36

were standing in a circle

16:38

like facing each other completely.

16:40

silent and there was no

16:43

UFO there, but they were

16:45

all just doing that straight

16:47

out of the X files.

16:50

And so you have things

16:52

like that and you're thinking,

16:54

well, I don't know. Yeah,

16:56

that is terrifying. I mean,

16:58

I don't think there are

17:00

very many unsettling things cows

17:02

could do other than standing

17:04

in a circle like some

17:06

type of weird ritual. You

17:08

know, that reminds me actually

17:10

of like the Belgian UFO wave

17:13

a little bit. Well, very

17:15

interesting, you should say that, because

17:17

there was talking of the

17:19

X -Files and spooky coincidences. This

17:21

wave of sightings, the

17:23

Cosford incident, took place late

17:26

on the night of

17:28

March 30th and in the

17:30

early hours of March

17:32

31st, 1993. And

17:34

of course, as I was investigating

17:36

this, something was kind of

17:38

gnawing at the back of my

17:40

mind and I couldn't quite

17:42

put my finger on it. until

17:45

afterwards I realized, wait, this

17:47

is three years to the very

17:49

night, to the very night

17:51

after those Belgium sightings. And there

17:53

were absolutely similarities in the

17:55

shape of the craft, sometimes the

17:57

behavior, this ability, apparent

17:59

ability of it to

18:01

move from a very low

18:03

speed to high max

18:05

speeds in an instant with

18:07

no sonic boom. Lou

18:09

Elizondo would call this

18:12

one of the five observables.

18:14

And we didn't have that

18:16

terminology at the time, but we

18:18

knew what it was because

18:20

it cropped up in cases

18:22

like this. And I remember

18:24

one of the Air Force witnesses

18:26

telling me that this thing

18:28

moved very slowly, maybe 35, 40

18:31

miles an hour with a low

18:33

frequency humming sound that he said

18:35

was deeply unpleasant. You could feel

18:37

it. as well as hear it,

18:39

rather like getting too close to

18:41

a generator or something. Generator, a

18:43

bass speaker at a rock concert,

18:45

something like that, where you feel

18:48

the sound going through your body.

18:50

He said it was like that.

18:52

And this is an Air Force

18:54

guy telling me this, like just

18:56

a few hours after he saw

18:58

it. And he said, from that

19:00

very slow speed, suddenly it just

19:02

went away to the horizon, like

19:04

in an instant. And he said,

19:06

Nick, and this was maybe I

19:08

don't know, just five, six hours

19:10

afterwards, we were on the phone,

19:12

his voice was still shaking and

19:14

he said, Nick, I've been

19:16

in the Air Force eight years.

19:19

I see obviously fast attack helicopters, Milch

19:21

jets, like it's my job. I've

19:23

never seen anything like this before in

19:25

my life. Wow. I

19:29

mean, that's incredible coming from

19:31

such, you know, such incredible

19:33

witness. And

19:35

then the corroborate of evidence. Now, did

19:37

you, you obviously picked up some

19:39

of that on radar as well? We

19:41

did have some radar data. It

19:44

was inconclusive. There

19:46

were some uncorrelated targets

19:48

near, you know,

19:50

some of the radar heads had

19:52

picked something up, but you

19:54

couldn't hang your hat on it.

19:57

I see. And it doesn't

19:59

surprise me. I mean, we do

20:01

stealth. So so it's it

20:03

can be done. Yeah, that's

20:05

I mean stealth has a large part

20:07

of stealth as well is the altitude. Right.

20:10

So if these things are not

20:12

too high in the sky as

20:14

well, they would be harder to

20:16

pick up by radar, wouldn't they?

20:18

Yes. I mean, our radar systems,

20:21

particularly our military ones are configured

20:23

for very specific threats. And

20:25

and so they they are

20:27

looking in certain directions. at

20:30

certain heights. It's

20:32

not to say they can't do

20:34

other things, but you have

20:36

that. Then you have the fact

20:38

that a lot of them

20:40

use filter programs. This was a

20:42

big problem for us because

20:44

the mindset as much as anything

20:46

else is that things don't

20:48

come from straight up down. You're

20:51

looking, like I say, at

20:53

very specific things, you

20:56

know, most of which at

20:58

the time were like Soviet

21:00

Union, Warsaw Pact. So your

21:02

system isn't configured to look

21:04

for things just coming in

21:07

out of the atmosphere. And

21:09

then you use these filter

21:11

programs and it's based on

21:13

a mindset assumption. Well, if

21:15

it isn't behaving like a

21:17

conventional aircraft, then it's probably

21:20

just a ghost return. And

21:22

you wonder, are we throwing

21:24

out the baby with the bath water

21:26

here? Yeah. And that's, I

21:28

think, what made your job so

21:30

important is looking at those anomalies. And

21:32

this brings me to a really

21:34

interesting point that I've pondered quite a

21:36

bit as well. Being people who

21:38

are interested in these fringe anomalies, we

21:41

are a little bit more

21:43

prone to... we have to be

21:45

to looking at all of

21:47

the anomalies that are associated with

21:50

it. So for instance, a

21:52

lot of people avoid the UFO

21:54

spike on the chart. But

21:56

for those of us focusing in

21:58

on that, well, there are

22:00

an infinite amount of spikes in

22:03

that category. I mean, the

22:05

anomalies don't just cease at a

22:07

UFO. They go into beings

22:09

and physical metaphysical, all these other

22:11

fringe sort of things. So.

22:14

Was there ever a point during

22:16

your time there where you

22:18

had to pull your punches a

22:20

little bit with what you

22:22

thought was going on? 100 %

22:25

yes You have to play the

22:27

strongest hand that you have

22:29

particularly if you are looking to

22:31

get access to defense ministers

22:33

If you want more resources you

22:35

you just have to focus

22:38

in on the sorts of cases

22:40

that you know will play

22:42

well. So you talk about the

22:44

pilot sightings, you talk about

22:46

the cases where you have radar

22:49

data, you don't tend to

22:51

talk about the abduction cases, even though you

22:53

have them. So you kind

22:55

of self -censor, which in

22:57

a way, it was

22:59

one of the most uncomfortable

23:01

things of all because

23:04

the phenomenon I soon realized

23:06

was, you know, multifaceted

23:08

and truly Bizarre

23:10

and sometimes almost abstract but you had

23:12

to kind of play it very

23:14

straight and focus in on this the

23:16

sort of defense national security. Pilots

23:19

radar kind of thing and we still

23:21

see that I mean a tip

23:23

and also that that you mentioned I

23:25

mean also looked at some really

23:27

weird stuff but they had to kind

23:29

of dress it up. in

23:31

a certain way to get congressional

23:33

funding. And that relates to

23:35

why we changed the language

23:38

even from UFO to UAP. It

23:40

was all about getting

23:42

rid of that pop culture

23:44

baggage and rebranding the

23:46

conversation. Yeah, but with

23:48

that pop culture baggage, you'd

23:50

mentioned throwing the baby out

23:53

with the bathwater. You know,

23:55

I would like to believe

23:57

that all of these multifaceted

24:01

sort of subjects that

24:03

revolve around UAP are

24:05

also, to some extent, should

24:08

be a concern to national

24:10

security. Because when we're talking

24:13

about abductions, although might be

24:15

fringe, when you have thousands

24:17

of people who are reporting these

24:19

things or reporting similar things, I

24:21

mean, you would assume that

24:23

these conversations should be happening behind

24:25

closed doors as well as

24:28

invading our airspace. 100%,

24:30

yeah. And, you know, I

24:32

know from more recent conversations

24:34

with people like Lou Elizondo

24:36

and Jay Stratton and obviously

24:39

the UAP task force in

24:41

the United States, ATIP

24:43

and OSAP, they had

24:45

those cases or they were certainly

24:47

aware of those cases, but even

24:49

they had to kind of play

24:51

on, well, yeah, David Fravor, the

24:53

Tic Tac. Again,

24:55

it's playing your

24:58

strongest suit. Yeah, I

25:00

just find it so, um, so

25:02

wild because, uh, you know, these

25:04

abduction cases specifically go back decades

25:06

and decades and decades. It's not

25:08

like they've gone away and there

25:10

was a time where they were

25:12

seemingly more rampant, but, um, it

25:14

is. For me, you know, thinking

25:17

about that stuff, if this is

25:19

happening, I mean, that is a

25:21

complete violation of human rights. That

25:23

is just, you know, and

25:25

obviously if they're non -human, then

25:27

they can disregard that. But I

25:30

take issue with it because

25:32

I feel like it's such an

25:34

invasive procedure that happens during

25:36

these abductions versus just coming into

25:38

our aerospace. I understand the,

25:40

you know, the military implications, but...

25:42

some of these cases that

25:44

you visited, um, where,

25:47

you know, people

25:49

were potentially abducted or

25:51

had, uh, encounters

25:53

with beings. What was one of

25:55

the cases that really left you,

25:57

I mean, struck by the information

25:59

that you were, that you were

26:01

uncovering? Well, this is

26:03

another area where, where

26:05

there is kind of

26:07

self -censorship. But interestingly,

26:09

you even find it

26:11

in ufology. I guess...

26:13

if you talk to

26:15

abduction researchers, and back

26:18

in the day, I

26:20

suppose the big three were Bud

26:22

Hopkins, John Mack, and David Jacobs.

26:25

And I met all

26:27

three of them. I

26:29

knew Bud and John

26:31

Mack quite well. I

26:33

mean, we talked about

26:35

some of the cases

26:37

and things like that. But

26:40

even within ufology, you

26:42

often find this self -censorship.

26:45

And it's only when you

26:47

talk to the actual

26:49

experiences, people like Whitley

26:51

Streba, that you realize

26:53

how truly bizarre and abstract

26:55

the phenomenon can be.

26:57

Because you have, just

26:59

as I talked about playing the

27:02

strongest suit in government UAP work,

27:04

you even find it with the

27:06

UFO researchers. And it's like, yeah,

27:08

I have a case. It's the

27:10

little grays. on a table, some

27:12

of the cases that I got

27:15

were not like that. Can you

27:17

go into them? Yeah, that would

27:19

be great. One to answer your

27:21

question about that left an impression

27:23

on me was it wasn't really

27:25

an abduction, but it was an

27:28

encounter with, I guess, beings, a

27:30

particular woman who I

27:33

got to know quite

27:35

well, had this experience

27:37

that a whole bunch

27:39

of apparently normal looking

27:41

people all walked into

27:43

an art shop in

27:46

central London, started looking

27:48

at all the produce,

27:51

were there for like a long

27:53

time and she just felt

27:55

there was something weird about these

27:57

people. And then after a

28:00

long time, they made a big

28:02

show of coming up and buying a

28:04

single pencil like it was like

28:06

a big thing. And

28:08

then they handed over a very

28:10

high denomination bank note. And

28:12

when the woman went to give

28:14

them their change, they

28:16

looked confused. Like they didn't

28:19

understand the concept of getting

28:21

their change bag. And she

28:23

was so struck by this

28:25

that she phoned somebody afterwards.

28:27

And in fact, during this

28:29

whole thing and said, there

28:31

are aliens in my shop.

28:34

And that's the

28:36

kind of... nature

28:38

of these encounters that sometimes doesn't

28:41

even come out in the

28:43

literature because I think sometimes you

28:45

follow just self -censor because they

28:47

say, look, everyone knows what

28:49

an alien looks like. Everyone knows

28:51

what an abduction is. It's

28:53

a very structured thing, the beam,

28:56

the table, the medical exam. When

28:58

you get something like this that doesn't fit the

29:00

model, you follow just self -censor

29:03

and throw it out. But me

29:05

being a kind of I don't

29:07

know, a sort of even -handed,

29:09

like, disinterested kind

29:11

of observer

29:13

of this. I

29:15

take all the cases that I

29:17

can get, and so that was

29:19

one that really struck me. So you

29:21

said you got to know this woman quite

29:23

well. Was that afterwards,

29:25

did she have any other encounters? One

29:29

that I would say was more

29:32

of a time slip, kind

29:34

of. phenomenon missing

29:36

time seeing somebody

29:38

that looked like

29:40

herself from the

29:42

future. Whoa. And

29:44

and it's again,

29:47

I often find that the high

29:49

strangeness of these cases is

29:51

is under reported. Yeah. I mean,

29:53

some of it I use

29:55

the word surreal quite deliberately that

29:57

the true phenomenon I think

29:59

is much more surreal. I mean,

30:01

we, of course, look, we

30:03

can only look at all of

30:05

this in a very anthropocentric

30:07

way. If we are dealing with

30:09

something truly alien, then it

30:11

doesn't surprise me in a way

30:13

that it is alien. Yeah,

30:16

good point. You know,

30:18

all of that, I mean, it's so interesting

30:20

because obviously, like you said, we are

30:22

sort of accustomed to seeing, to hearing about

30:24

the small grays, the tall grays, maybe

30:26

the mantis folk, some reptilians here and there,

30:29

even Nordic folk. But more...

30:31

and probably possibly harder to

30:33

detect are what seem to

30:35

be these hybrids in in

30:37

this case Of course, if

30:39

you're aware of the work

30:41

of David Jacobs, you know,

30:43

he's written books like The

30:45

Threat and the other one

30:48

was like among among us

30:50

or they're among us Really

30:52

highlighted sort of these tales

30:54

or these stories by abductees

30:56

who were led to train

30:59

a lot of these later stage

31:01

hybrids that have been interacting with,

31:03

you know, human society and train

31:05

them in the most mundane ways,

31:07

which I thought was really a

31:09

fascinating read. And this strikes me

31:11

as like one of those things,

31:13

especially they were, they would do

31:15

this in groups and for them

31:17

to go out alone and not

31:19

guided by an abductee or a

31:22

human to help them, you know,

31:24

understand what is happening. It's just

31:26

really strange as well. But that

31:28

type of behavior, the monetary

31:30

exchange with the large denomination, not knowing

31:32

what to do with the change, these

31:34

things all sound like what David Jacobs,

31:36

what the witnesses in the books that David

31:38

Jacobs wrote described, which is

31:41

really fascinating. Had you ever

31:43

encountered more of these sort

31:45

of human looking quote unquote

31:47

aliens? Yes. You

31:50

know, quite a few instances

31:52

over the years and it doesn't

31:54

surprise me. I mean, again,

31:56

if what we are dealing with

31:58

here is extraterrestrial visitation. And

32:00

I'm conscious that there are competing

32:02

theories out there, you know,

32:04

time travelers from the future, something

32:06

from other dimensions. But if

32:08

if we are dealing with something

32:11

that is extraterrestrial, then

32:13

absolutely this is going to

32:15

be sort of multifaceted. And why

32:17

would we think that any

32:19

civilization with the technology to travel

32:21

between the stars couldn't figure

32:23

out a way of walking among

32:25

us? Yeah, it's

32:27

unsettling to say the least. I

32:29

mean, you know, David Jacobson

32:31

in those books, he'd also hinted

32:33

at the idea of like

32:36

if there was some type of

32:38

takeover. you know, hypothetically by

32:40

these extraterrestrials, it wouldn't be so

32:42

hostile. They'd be smart enough

32:44

to sort of introduce themselves into

32:46

our society without us knowing

32:48

and sort of that seems like

32:50

a much more favorable way

32:52

to take over the resources that

32:54

we have here rather than

32:56

destroy everything or enslave everyone. It's

32:59

this like slow sort of

33:01

integration into, you know, into our

33:03

society. And it points

33:05

to a lot of these experiments

33:07

done on board with these

33:09

abductees, you know, the genetic experiments

33:11

and like what Whitley -Streiber gone

33:13

through and similar things to

33:15

that. So, I mean,

33:17

those things potentially the fringe

33:19

cases, I think, fascinate me

33:21

a lot more than, you know,

33:23

hearing about these other type

33:26

of aliens, although equally fascinating. Was

33:29

there ever any

33:31

witnesses that you

33:33

encountered that had

33:35

seen your typical

33:37

alien? Sure,

33:39

yeah. I had cases like

33:41

that, and people would talk

33:43

about the so -called grays,

33:45

but a lot of this...

33:47

under hypnosis and obviously there

33:49

are some issues with that

33:51

in terms of false memory

33:53

syndrome and just kind of

33:55

cultural contamination the the image

33:57

of a gray is now

33:59

so Firmly embedded in people's

34:01

minds that it's it's maybe

34:03

sort of almost like a

34:05

default go -to thing It's like

34:08

if if somebody is abducted.

34:10

Oh, yeah, it was the

34:12

grays and you wonder again

34:14

Any civilization with that technology probably

34:17

can can appear to us

34:19

however they like or can make

34:21

us see things that are

34:23

not there and it almost becomes

34:25

I'll use this analogy with

34:27

you deliberately but like the magician's

34:30

trick you know you're looking

34:32

at the hand that the magician

34:34

is saying but what you

34:36

should really be looking at is

34:38

what the other hand is

34:40

doing. Mmm masters of subterfuge are

34:43

these entities potentially You know

34:45

and then that's interesting because you

34:47

know we as humans also

34:49

deal in subterfuge Towards you know

34:51

our own kind Especially in

34:53

these government positions, you know, there's

34:56

often national security risks that

34:58

we have to hide There's often

35:00

these cases that we can't

35:02

let the public know about was

35:04

did you ever feel like

35:07

during your time that there was

35:10

actively information being suppressed at

35:12

some level that you

35:14

were denied access to? It's

35:17

difficult because you can't

35:19

prove a negative. I

35:22

actually felt that I

35:24

had access to everything I

35:26

needed. Certainly in

35:28

the UK, I didn't feel

35:30

that there was, I don't

35:32

know, another organization in the

35:34

shadows because they would have

35:36

needed access to the data. Also,

35:39

I had both the security

35:41

clearance and the need to

35:44

know when, for example, the

35:46

Secretary of State for Defense

35:48

answered questions in Parliament about

35:50

this, I was the person

35:52

that would have to draft

35:54

the replies. So

35:57

as the subject matter expert, I

35:59

believe that I total access.

36:01

Of course, you can never say

36:03

never. What I felt

36:05

that was an issue was

36:07

the United States. Because even

36:09

myself doing that job in

36:12

government, I could not get

36:14

access to what the US

36:16

knew and was doing about

36:18

this. And I was told,

36:21

frankly, the same as everyone

36:23

else was told. No, no, there's no

36:25

program. Nobody's doing anything. We haven't done

36:27

anything since Blue Book was shut down

36:30

at the end of 69. Now

36:32

we know that that obviously

36:34

was not true. And clearly you

36:36

wouldn't, you know, you have a

36:39

tip and all sat before that,

36:41

obviously there were other things,

36:43

you wouldn't have a gap where

36:45

this wasn't being done. So

36:47

I felt that if

36:49

anything was being hidden from

36:51

me, it was what

36:53

the United States was up

36:55

to. It's the one

36:57

area where the so -called

36:59

special relationship didn't really work.

37:01

And there was never

37:03

a time where you thought

37:05

that perhaps there was

37:07

some other foreign government sort

37:09

of impeding or involving

37:11

themselves in your work? No,

37:14

we knew through

37:16

intelligent sources that Russia

37:18

and China had

37:20

a program, had separate

37:23

programs looking at this. But

37:25

we didn't really know the details

37:27

of that. We didn't feel

37:29

that there was any active interference

37:31

from them in our program. Had

37:34

you heard of any crashed?

37:36

Um, retrievals done in the

37:38

UK. Some

37:40

rumors, but nothing you could

37:42

hang your hat on.

37:44

And I was not convinced

37:46

by any of those

37:48

cases. We had a case

37:50

from the early 1970s

37:52

where something was alleged to

37:54

have crashed in Wales

37:56

on Burwin Mountain. There

37:59

was another rumor about a

38:01

crash in the Peak District in

38:03

the north of England. But

38:05

I looked at that and of

38:07

course I had access to

38:09

all the historical files on all

38:12

this. Nothing convinced

38:14

me that there had been

38:16

any UK crashes. I

38:18

see. Very interesting. Thank

38:20

you so much for answering those

38:22

questions. I'm

38:26

going to move on to pass the

38:28

UFO desk as much as I could

38:30

probably spend the entire podcast discussing a

38:32

lot of what went on there. But

38:34

I'd like to move perhaps

38:36

back in time a little

38:39

bit to December 26, 1980, the

38:41

famous Rendlesham case. This

38:44

episode is brought to you by

38:46

Indeed. When your computer

38:48

breaks, you don't wait for

38:50

it to magically start working again.

38:52

You fix the problem. So

38:54

why wait to hire the people

38:56

your company desperately needs? Use

38:58

Indeed's sponsored jobs to hire top

39:01

talent fast. And even better,

39:03

you only pay for results. There's

39:05

no need to wait. Speed

39:07

up your hiring with a $75

39:09

sponsored job credit at indeed .com

39:11

slash podcast. Terms and conditions

39:13

apply. Ryan Reynolds here from

39:15

Mint Mobile with a message for everyone

39:17

paying big wireless way too much. Please for

39:19

the love of everything good in this

39:21

world, stop. With Mint, you can

39:23

get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

39:25

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments,

39:27

but that's weird. Okay, one

39:29

judgment. Anyway,

39:32

give it a try at mintmobile

39:34

.com slash switch. Coming

40:16

on board, even at the UFO

40:18

desk or from the Ministry of

40:20

Defense, had you prior

40:22

to this, had you heard about

40:24

Rendlesham and the incident that happened

40:26

there? No, I hadn't. I

40:29

think the only UFO case that

40:31

I had heard of before I got

40:33

this job, I mean, when I

40:35

was put on that position, I had

40:37

no knowledge or interest in this

40:40

phenomenon, which is probably the way they

40:42

wanted it. But also the best

40:44

way to be, you don't want to

40:46

come into a job like that

40:48

encumbered with baggage, whether it's whether it's

40:50

as a true believer or as

40:52

a diehard debunker. The only case I'd

40:54

ever heard of was probably Roswell. So

40:57

Rendlesham, no. Almost

41:00

literally on day one in that

41:02

job, one of the things I started

41:04

to do was go back through

41:06

the files that we had in our

41:08

office. Obviously, there were files dating

41:10

back to the Second World War that

41:12

I looked at later. But

41:14

there was one, you know, sat there

41:16

and I pulled it out and it said,

41:19

Rendlesham Forest December 1980 and

41:21

I was like, wait,

41:23

what's this? And my

41:26

predecessor, when I was taking the

41:28

job, you know, you have

41:30

a handover and he said, well,

41:32

that's, I guess, the kind of

41:34

crown jewels that it's the case

41:36

nobody could explain. And so I'm

41:38

leafing through and I'm like.

41:40

Wait, what? The deputy base commander

41:42

saw this as well? Wait,

41:45

what's this document

41:47

on US Air

41:49

Force letterhead saying

41:51

that something landed?

41:54

And wait, what's this about radioactivity

41:56

levels at the landing site? the

42:01

more I looked into it,

42:03

the more bizarre it got. This

42:07

was probably earlier in your

42:09

time at the UFO desk then

42:11

that you were looking into

42:13

Rendlesham, correct? Yeah. I was

42:15

aware of it almost from day

42:17

one because it was part of

42:19

the handover brief that I got

42:21

from my predecessor. But

42:24

as I went on in that

42:26

job, We were still,

42:28

for example, getting media inquiries

42:30

about it. We were still

42:32

getting members of parliament occasionally

42:34

raising questions about it. And

42:36

at a certain point, I

42:38

thought, right, I need to

42:40

do what cops would call

42:42

a cold case review, go

42:45

through the data that we

42:47

have, see what we

42:49

missed. And that's

42:51

what I did. A real

42:53

X file. Yes, a real

42:55

life X file. And

42:57

I use this

42:59

analogy of police. And

43:02

actually, it's quite a good

43:04

one, I think, because a UFO

43:06

investigation has a lot of

43:08

similarities with a police investigation, because

43:10

the two strands of it

43:12

are you identify and interview witnesses,

43:15

and you secure and analyze

43:17

evidence. And

43:19

then Then it's

43:21

almost like you've got a list

43:23

of suspects. You know intellectually

43:25

that most UFOs have conventional explanations.

43:28

And so you try and think,

43:30

well, what could it have been?

43:32

And you check for, you know,

43:35

aircraft, military exercises,

43:37

satellites, meteors,

43:40

and one by one, you eliminate those.

43:42

Or most times, of course, you don't.

43:44

Most time you find a match and

43:46

you're like, okay, this, this is the

43:48

explanation or the likely explanation. whatever

43:50

it might be. But the cases like

43:52

Randall Shim, you go through all that

43:54

and you still come up blank. Okay.

43:58

So after all the

44:00

accumulated knowledge that you've had

44:02

in your years studying

44:05

UFOs and the phenomenon, looking

44:07

back at the investigation of

44:09

Randall Shim, would you say that

44:11

they did an adequate job

44:13

investigating it? Or what would you

44:15

have done in that position?

44:17

to give yourself a little bit

44:19

more information knowing what you

44:21

know now about UFOs. The

44:24

investigation was completely mishandled

44:26

for a number of

44:28

reasons. And again, they

44:30

are two things that

44:33

often sabotage a police

44:35

investigation. Two things that

44:37

any cop will tell

44:39

you if something goes

44:41

wrong, these two things

44:43

are usually the problem.

44:45

The first was a

44:47

jurisdictional dogfight. Basically, these

44:49

were US bases on

44:51

British soil. So

44:53

you had this kind of,

44:55

well, who's got jurisdiction? Who's

44:57

got primacy? Some

45:00

things the US military did. Some

45:02

things the British Ministry of

45:04

Defense did. And allied

45:06

to that, the second

45:08

problem is poor information

45:10

sharing. Again, just

45:12

an unrelated example, but one

45:14

of the lessons of 9

45:16

-11. was that all

45:19

sorts of intelligence agencies or

45:21

parts of the government

45:23

that had access to intelligence

45:25

had intelligence but didn't

45:27

share it. So FBI had

45:29

something that CIA would

45:31

have wanted to know and

45:33

vice versa. That happened

45:35

with Randall Shum that we

45:37

had this kind of

45:39

US government doing its thing,

45:41

British government doing its

45:43

thing. Everyone was kind of,

45:45

you know, secretive and

45:47

holding their cards close to

45:49

their chest or vest, whichever

45:52

saying you use.

45:55

And so a lot of things fell

45:57

between the cracks. Oh,

46:00

and delay, because

46:02

this happened over Christmas, a

46:05

lot of people were on

46:07

leave. And it sounds like

46:09

a silly thing, but actually,

46:11

particularly back when I was

46:14

doing this job, but particularly

46:16

before this, Randallsham 1980, before

46:19

the internet and before

46:21

email, before the 24

46:23

-7 news cycle, before

46:25

social media, the fact

46:27

that something like this would happen

46:29

over the Christmas break when a lot

46:31

of key people were on leave

46:34

was a much bigger deal than it

46:36

might sound. Hmm, that is true.

46:38

It's almost serendipitously done almost maybe even

46:40

deliberately during that time, you know,

46:42

a lot of these UFO cases and

46:44

visitations are done in remote areas.

46:47

They're not, they're rarely done in crowded

46:49

places. And so it probably would

46:51

be a little, it would make a

46:53

little bit more sense that it

46:55

would be done in a remote area,

46:57

but also in, you know, a

47:00

time where there are less witnesses. However,

47:03

What's interesting with Rendlesham

47:05

is the people that involved.

47:07

So Jim Peniston, John

47:09

Burroughs, and obviously Deputy Base

47:11

Commander Charles Halt. These

47:14

were all active

47:16

duty military personnel.

47:20

Do you think that there

47:22

is a reason to

47:24

believe that that was intentional?

47:27

That this encounter somehow

47:29

lent itself a

47:31

little bit more to

47:33

you know, the narrative that there

47:35

is some type of communication between

47:38

military and UFOs? Yes,

47:40

I think so. And I'll

47:42

directly quote Colonel Holt here. And

47:44

I know all three of

47:46

those people very well. And of

47:48

course, I wrote a book

47:51

with John Burroughs and Jim Paniston.

47:53

But Colonel Holt, when he

47:55

talks about seeing the UFO on

47:57

the third of the three

47:59

nights of activity, he talks about

48:01

it. zipping around in the

48:03

sky like it was doing a grid

48:06

search, but he says that at one

48:08

point in the encounter, a beam of

48:10

light came down and struck the ground

48:12

in front of him and the half

48:14

dozen or so people he'd taken out

48:16

into the forest to investigate this. And

48:19

he said, looking back on this,

48:21

he said, was this a weapon? Was

48:24

this a warning or

48:26

was this communication? And

48:29

he... He doesn't know the

48:31

answer to that, but he

48:33

said, well, whatever it was,

48:35

it was under intelligent control.

48:38

And again, for

48:40

this to happen, right

48:42

next to Bentwaters and Woodbridge,

48:44

these two military bases

48:47

separated by Randall Shemforest, yes,

48:49

it's remote, but these

48:51

at the time were two

48:53

of the most strategically

48:55

important bases in the entire

48:57

NATO military alliance. And

49:00

this was a time, December

49:02

1980, when

49:04

not a lot of people

49:06

know this, but when we

49:08

probably came closer to nuclear

49:11

war than any other time

49:13

since the Cuban Missile Crisis. According

49:16

to some military historians, we

49:19

were very close. And this was

49:21

because of what was going on in

49:23

Poland with the trade union solidarity. There

49:27

is intelligence that suggests that

49:29

the Soviets had told the

49:31

Polish government, you deal with

49:33

this. If you don't deal

49:36

with it, we will. And

49:38

that they had a

49:40

winter exercise regularly scheduled,

49:43

which was a buildup of troops

49:45

and they practiced sort of transition

49:47

to war. But there is

49:50

intelligence that suggests that this time

49:52

they were saying this exercise is

49:54

going to turn into the real

49:56

thing. unless the situation in Poland

49:58

is resolved. And Rendlesham

50:00

Forest, of course, played itself

50:02

out to this back story. This

50:05

was the geopolitical situation

50:08

at the time. Were

50:10

there nuclear arms in that

50:12

region? You know, that's,

50:14

we've hit one of those, um,

50:17

NCND moments. I can neither confirm nor

50:19

deny. Yeah. It would make a

50:21

lot of sense looking at even the

50:23

recent activity in Lake and Heath

50:25

and even going back to, you know,

50:28

uh, Rendlesham, the amount

50:30

of, um, I

50:32

mean, just even stateside and I

50:34

think even in Russia, you

50:37

know, these things are.

50:39

highly interested, intrigued, curious,

50:41

or perhaps even wary

50:43

of our nuclear capabilities,

50:45

whether that's having nuclear

50:47

meltdowns at these facilities

50:49

or the place where

50:51

we house nuclear bombs.

50:55

I mean, that would potentially be one

50:57

of the reasons why this craft

50:59

was in the area. Again,

51:01

we have to be

51:03

wary of anthropocentrism, but... know,

51:05

there is a certain, if

51:07

you're kind of saying what

51:09

assumptions could we make about

51:12

visiting extraterrestrials or a non

51:14

-human intelligence that you want

51:16

to use that phrase. One

51:18

of the good assumptions would

51:20

be they would be interested

51:23

in the cutting edge of

51:25

our technology, particularly if it's

51:27

a technology that we could

51:29

literally induce an extinction level

51:31

event. The

51:34

shorthand for this would be

51:36

that other civilizations would look

51:38

perhaps at the Trinity test

51:40

in 45 and then Hiroshima

51:43

or Nagasaki and say the

51:45

kids have found the matches.

51:47

That's right. Yeah, and I

51:49

mean, you know, if you're

51:51

looking, you know, what

51:53

other possible explanations could you find

51:55

for a UFO being interested in

51:57

this area with these military personnel?

51:59

I mean, there's no you

52:02

know, they weren't doing CE5 out

52:04

there. And we've been aware

52:06

of this UFO nuclear connection for

52:08

years, of course. Maelstrom,

52:12

1967, Minot,

52:15

1967, did the

52:17

case, another

52:19

case from actually Ukraine,

52:22

I think, I think in 82. That

52:24

was the one, that was the really scary one

52:26

because of course in a lot of these cases,

52:29

the Allegation is

52:32

that the nukes were shut down,

52:34

maybe as a demonstration of strength,

52:36

maybe as a warning, whatever. But

52:38

in this Ukraine case from

52:40

1982, of course, the missiles

52:42

were put into their pre

52:44

-launch sequence, and that was

52:47

truly scary. Yeah, that's definitely

52:49

terrifying. Shutting them down is

52:51

scary, but turning them on is

52:53

even scarier, I think. Yeah, and

52:55

the guy, one of the main

52:57

witnesses to this, his hair turned

52:59

white. I mean, literally,

53:01

it's one of those medical things

53:03

that apparently shock can do

53:05

this, but the next day his

53:07

hair was white. Wow.

53:09

And yeah, never, never went

53:12

back. Stress

53:14

related or? I mean, yeah, he

53:16

literally thought that on his

53:18

watch, the Third World

53:20

War was going to start because

53:22

of something weird happening to

53:25

the nuclear weapons that was not,

53:27

you know, the high command

53:29

had not. given a launch order

53:31

or anything. So this was

53:33

like, he thought on his watch,

53:36

some bizarre accident. And

53:38

yes, of course, there was UFO

53:40

sighting in relation to this.

53:42

And that's what triggered the stress

53:44

and the fear. That's

53:49

really that's I mean, that's really

53:51

that's one of those wild again one

53:53

of those fringe sort of cases

53:55

that you're like what how does that

53:57

fit into anywhere exactly and this

53:59

is one of the reasons why the

54:01

United States Congress has as one

54:03

of the many things that they've asked

54:05

the Department of Defense to do

54:07

it's like they've asked the question. Hey

54:09

look, we are aware of this

54:11

UFO nuclear connection Go find out whether

54:13

this is a real thing or

54:15

the skeptical theory is that some of

54:17

this is is collection

54:20

bias that nuclear facilities

54:22

by their very nature

54:24

more heavily surveilled. Therefore,

54:26

it's maybe more proportionally likely that

54:28

if there's a UFO sighting, it will

54:30

be picked up. But obviously some

54:32

of the things we've discussed go over

54:34

and above that. Yeah, no, understandably. If

54:37

you could ask sort of

54:40

one candid off the record

54:42

question to any of the

54:44

witnesses at Rendlesham. What

54:47

question would that be? It

54:49

would be what didn't you put

54:52

in the official report? Hmm because

54:54

again people self -censor Even with

54:56

something as bizarre as this You

54:58

know one of the reasons that

55:00

people like John Burroughs and Jim

55:02

Paniston could speak out was that

55:05

the deputy base commander Charles Holt

55:07

had seen it too So they

55:09

kind of felt okay. The boss

55:11

has seen it. So there's no

55:13

there's no shame in

55:15

saying, yeah, I saw

55:17

a UFO. But

55:20

they self -censored. And Jim

55:22

Peniston, as we know, self -censored

55:24

the whole business of touching

55:26

The binary code. The binary

55:29

code. This sort of, as

55:31

he puts it, almost like

55:33

a telepathic download of data

55:35

that he got. I still

55:37

wonder, to answer your

55:39

question, which other witnesses

55:42

self -censored what... didn't some

55:44

of the others put

55:46

in the official report? Is

55:49

there anything you're aware of? No.

55:53

No. If I

55:55

had to guess, I

55:57

would say that with some of the

55:59

things coming out now, it relates to

56:01

health issues. I see. There's

56:04

a line, a

56:06

throwaway line in a British,

56:08

not American, interestingly, British intelligence

56:10

assessment of UAP as a

56:13

whole. throwaway line on

56:15

Rendlesham, which says this

56:17

is a case where it

56:19

might be postulated that

56:21

the witnesses were exposed to

56:24

UAP radiation for longer

56:26

periods than normal. And

56:28

that crops up again in

56:30

ATIP and OSAP in one of

56:32

the papers that they did

56:35

about human effects. But

56:37

all this is

56:39

very sensitive. like

56:43

i say people self -censor so

56:45

you have to dress it

56:47

up as i mean you if

56:50

you're reading this report it's

56:52

dressed up as sort of physiological

56:54

effects of exposure to uap

56:56

and it sounds very sort of

56:58

dry and then you read

57:00

between the lines and it's way

57:02

that this is a government

57:04

document basically about close encounters right

57:06

yeah. And I mean, the

57:09

work that Dr. Gary Nolan is

57:11

doing to study these physiological

57:13

effects and corroborating a lot of

57:15

what David Grush came out

57:17

and said publicly and even what

57:19

Lou Elizondo had spoken about,

57:21

that there is this danger in

57:23

interacting with this phenomenon that

57:25

is sort of an offset perhaps

57:28

from the propulsion or whatever

57:30

they end up using. Yes, we

57:32

don't think it's deliberate. Yeah.

57:34

It does, as you say, it

57:36

seems to be leakage. Right.

57:39

Except, I mean, the case in

57:41

Brazil, I think, would be maybe

57:43

the exception to that. Yes. But

57:45

then, yeah, if

57:48

you're looking at a whole range of

57:50

data, there are always going to

57:52

be outliers. And yeah, for whatever reason.

57:54

And sometimes that's where you should

57:56

look. Yeah, perhaps. And again, like you

57:58

mentioned at the top, this is

58:01

perhaps just a plethora of different encounters,

58:03

we don't know. I always like

58:05

to think that it's either zero

58:08

or a million. If

58:10

we're thinking of species

58:12

in the known galaxy or

58:14

even interacting with Earth, it's

58:17

either nothing or everything because it's

58:19

such a vast universe in that

58:21

if one of them, through these

58:23

billions of years, discovered that technology,

58:25

then a million of them did.

58:28

That's kind of where I sit with that. Absolutely.

58:32

In a universe nearly 14

58:34

billion years old, there might

58:36

be civilizations out there, a

58:38

billion years ahead of us.

58:40

And like you say, the

58:42

statistical chances of there only

58:44

being two civilizations in the

58:46

universe, us plus one, are,

58:48

I think, as ridiculously long

58:50

odds as the idea that

58:52

we'd be alone. And the

58:54

more we find out about

58:56

the universe, The more

58:58

ordinary we look and I guess

59:01

it's the Copernican principle that you're

59:03

probably somewhere in the middle. So

59:05

there are probably emerging civilizations much

59:07

more primitive than us. But conversely,

59:09

like I say, in a universe

59:11

this old, even with the cycles

59:13

of star formation and needing heavy

59:15

elements that were only formed after

59:17

the first wave of stars, you

59:19

know, went supernova and seeded the

59:21

universe with these heavier. elements, even

59:23

taking that into account, like I

59:25

say, there could be civilizations out

59:27

there that got going a billion

59:29

years before us. And it also,

59:32

before I forget, it reminds me

59:34

of something John Mack once said,

59:36

and talking about the abduction experiences.

59:38

And he said, when

59:40

abductees say, oh, it

59:42

was like a medical procedure,

59:44

he said, yeah, the

59:46

word is, it's like a

59:48

medical procedure. That's just

59:50

our anthropocentrism, he said

59:52

it may be something completely different.

59:54

We kind of put it in

59:56

a very human context and we

59:58

settle on the nearest match we

1:00:01

can find. So people say, I

1:00:03

was on a table, they started

1:00:05

doing stuff and we say, oh,

1:00:07

medical procedure, you know, hybridization program

1:00:09

samples. But John Mack said it

1:00:12

might be something completely different. Right.

1:00:14

And that's just impossible for us to even

1:00:16

conceive. Yeah. We can only use

1:00:19

the words that we have, which

1:00:21

is why people like Jean Valais, of

1:00:23

course, look at the folklore and

1:00:25

they say, well, this is something that's

1:00:27

always been going on, but we've

1:00:29

used different words for it, dwarves, fairies,

1:00:32

elves, you know. And

1:00:35

flipping that around, there might

1:00:37

not only be things that we

1:00:39

don't have words for, but

1:00:42

things that we don't have the

1:00:44

conceptual ability to

1:00:46

even process. Rather like

1:00:48

you couldn't explain quantum

1:00:50

physics to a chimpanzee, maybe

1:00:53

you can't explain the phenomenon or some

1:00:55

aspects of it to humans. That's right,

1:00:57

yeah. And those are fun lines to

1:01:00

think of because that's really the fringe

1:01:02

of it all. That's like where you

1:01:04

get to the extremities of this phenomenon

1:01:06

and you kind of have to just

1:01:08

hypothesize, you know, anything you

1:01:10

can using this human interface, you

1:01:12

know, what are the limits

1:01:14

of that, you know, and even

1:01:16

thinking so far as like

1:01:18

some of these extraterrestrials, possibly also

1:01:21

observe UAP to them, you

1:01:23

know, like they're in even thinking

1:01:25

on the lines of, you

1:01:27

know, they might be a billion

1:01:29

years more advanced to this.

1:01:31

If you look at the trajectory,

1:01:33

the absolute, I mean, just

1:01:35

shocking. Rise in propulsion

1:01:37

technology and in just tech in

1:01:39

general in the last several

1:01:41

hundred years how that line goes

1:01:43

straight up exponentially We might

1:01:46

only be a hundred years behind

1:01:48

some of these things Yeah,

1:01:50

I I remember one time slightly

1:01:52

off topic, but it isn't

1:01:54

talking to my grandparents and my

1:01:56

grandparents were telling me oh,

1:01:59

yeah I saw one of the

1:02:01

first German raids on on

1:02:03

the UK and I sort

1:02:05

of had in my mind

1:02:07

images of bomber planes. And

1:02:10

my grandmother said, no, no,

1:02:12

I'm talking about the Zeppelins.

1:02:14

And it just brings it

1:02:16

home that, like you say,

1:02:18

we've come from horse and

1:02:20

buggy to stealth fighter and

1:02:22

space probe in a couple

1:02:24

of hundred years. And

1:02:27

you don't have to kind of

1:02:29

go too far beyond that when

1:02:31

you look at the exponential rise

1:02:33

of technology, particularly with AI, to

1:02:35

say where are we gonna

1:02:37

be in another, well, even

1:02:40

10, 20 years, but imagine

1:02:42

200 years, 500 ,000 a

1:02:44

million. Yeah, we don't even

1:02:46

have to speculate that far

1:02:48

ahead to really become alien

1:02:51

to our own selves. I

1:02:53

mean, we're eventually going to

1:02:55

look back in the last

1:02:57

50 years and go, wow,

1:02:59

this is just, we've changed so much

1:03:01

as a species. Hopefully we

1:03:03

get to that point. Yeah. And

1:03:06

again, sort of

1:03:08

related to that, as much

1:03:10

as we talk about

1:03:12

an ancient universe, 14

1:03:14

billion years old, civilizations a billion

1:03:16

years ahead, you can

1:03:18

flip that and say, in

1:03:20

one sense, we are in the

1:03:22

first hot beats of the

1:03:24

universe, because some of the stars

1:03:26

are going to last for

1:03:28

trillions. of years, and yet we're

1:03:30

in the first 14 billion.

1:03:32

So in one sense, statistically, if

1:03:35

you look at it this way, in the

1:03:37

age of the universe, when we come to look

1:03:39

at it, it's kind of bizarre that we

1:03:41

are at the very beginning. Yeah,

1:03:43

very true. Hard to conceptualize

1:03:45

all of these things, especially

1:03:47

when our feeble human minds

1:03:49

can barely conceive of time

1:03:52

and space. Back to

1:03:54

some of the cases that

1:03:56

we were talking about. We

1:03:59

touched on Rendlesham. I do

1:04:01

also want to ask a

1:04:03

little bit more about the

1:04:05

binary code download when interacting

1:04:07

with this craft. I

1:04:11

mean, can you in

1:04:13

a nutshell describe how credible

1:04:15

you think that was considering

1:04:17

the evidence that was given

1:04:19

and the information that was

1:04:21

taken from it? Well,

1:04:24

I got to know Jim Peniston

1:04:26

very well. To

1:04:28

me, he comes across as

1:04:30

an honest man and quite

1:04:32

a humble man. And

1:04:35

one of the most credible

1:04:37

things about this is that

1:04:39

he sat on this aspect

1:04:42

of it for decades, probably

1:04:44

about 30 years. Firstly,

1:04:46

just out of embarrassment. And

1:04:49

again, I'll use the phrase self -censorship.

1:04:51

It was okay to say he'd seen

1:04:53

a UFO. because the colonel, the

1:04:55

deputy base commander had seen it too.

1:04:57

That's fine. But he couldn't talk about

1:04:59

a telepathic download when he touched the

1:05:01

side of this thing, not least

1:05:03

because he stayed in the service for

1:05:05

years. And he knew he had a

1:05:07

very high security clearance. He

1:05:09

was in the PRP,

1:05:11

the personal reliability program, a

1:05:14

handful of people who

1:05:16

have exceptionally high security clearances.

1:05:18

go through all sorts

1:05:20

of extra vetting, security clearances,

1:05:22

psychological evaluation, that sort

1:05:24

of thing. He knew that

1:05:26

if he'd mentioned telepathic

1:05:28

download, he'd be out of

1:05:30

that. And then, effectively,

1:05:32

he'd never get any good

1:05:34

postings. Again, he would

1:05:36

just be in charge of

1:05:38

the store's depot. Yeah,

1:05:41

very true. Not

1:05:43

that there's anything wrong with that.

1:05:45

A lot of people like that

1:05:47

do a very good job. Yes,

1:05:49

of course. But that was not

1:05:51

the job that The sort of

1:05:53

job that he wanted understood and

1:05:55

what do you make of the

1:05:57

actual message itself? First of all,

1:05:59

this was given to him in

1:06:01

these zeros and ones that he

1:06:03

jotted down How did jotting those

1:06:05

down? To deciphering those

1:06:08

how did how did that end

1:06:10

up happening? Well, he didn't

1:06:12

even know what binary code was

1:06:14

and maybe that sounds surprising now, but

1:06:16

I don't think it was maybe

1:06:18

that surprising back in 1980, maybe unless

1:06:20

you were a computer person, which

1:06:22

not a lot of people were, or

1:06:24

a mathematician. That's right. You

1:06:27

know, you wouldn't. So he

1:06:29

just got this kind of what

1:06:31

he described as this compulsion. He

1:06:34

touched the side of the

1:06:36

craft, felt a sort of

1:06:38

jolt, something happened. Then two

1:06:40

or three days later, under

1:06:42

compulsion, he wrote 16 pages

1:06:44

of ones and zeros in

1:06:46

a notebook. And then promptly

1:06:48

kind of half forgot, half

1:06:50

self -censored for 30 years. And

1:06:53

it was only when somebody else,

1:06:55

and by a bizarre coincidence, this somebody

1:06:57

else was Linda Moulton Hell. Jim

1:07:00

was on a TV show and

1:07:02

he was due to talk about

1:07:04

Randall Shim. And he

1:07:06

was due to show his police notebook

1:07:08

where he had made a sketch

1:07:10

of the UFO and the symbols on

1:07:13

the side. And Linda... happened

1:07:15

to be walking behind him

1:07:17

before the interviewers, he was leafing

1:07:19

through this, looked over his

1:07:21

shoulder and said, Jim, what's that?

1:07:24

And Jim was like, you know,

1:07:26

really almost, you know, nervous and

1:07:28

embarrassed. And he was like, oh,

1:07:30

nothing. And Linda pushed the point. Linda

1:07:33

can be quite forceful,

1:07:35

good investigator. And

1:07:38

only then did Did the story of

1:07:40

this binary code come out and

1:07:42

he didn't know what it was. So

1:07:44

the TV company got hold of

1:07:46

it. They, somebody

1:07:48

realized it was binary. They got

1:07:50

hold of a computer engineer,

1:07:52

a computer scientist called Nick Sisk.

1:07:55

Nick Sisk said, well, you

1:07:57

know, it's binary and obviously you

1:07:59

can just run it through a

1:08:01

conversion program and out came this

1:08:04

message. Exploration

1:08:06

of humanity. continuous

1:08:08

for planetary

1:08:10

advance, eyes of your

1:08:13

eyes, origin year

1:08:15

8100, and

1:08:17

then the sequence of

1:08:19

latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates that

1:08:22

happened to match a

1:08:24

whole list of ancient and

1:08:26

sacred sites all around

1:08:28

the world, everything from the

1:08:30

Great Pyramids Giza to

1:08:33

the Nazca lines in Peru.

1:08:37

That is an incredible

1:08:39

series of events when

1:08:41

you, you know, if

1:08:43

we take it on faith that

1:08:45

that is what happened, that

1:08:47

that is how that information came

1:08:49

about, you know,

1:08:52

which there's no real reason

1:08:54

not to believe it. But

1:08:56

if that is true, I

1:09:00

mean, there's just...

1:09:02

a thousand questions that

1:09:04

spawn from this. It's

1:09:08

in his own mind,

1:09:10

in binary. It's not

1:09:12

a message, so he didn't know what it

1:09:14

was. So first of

1:09:17

all, you're unconsciously writing binary. Second

1:09:19

of all, that binary translates into English. Yeah,

1:09:22

parts of it. It's

1:09:24

like some of it is maybe junk,

1:09:27

but in there, there's a

1:09:29

message. And I suppose Codebreakers

1:09:32

cryptographers will say that this is

1:09:34

often the way that classified information

1:09:36

is is sent you have a

1:09:38

whole lot of data but There's

1:09:40

there is a message in there somewhere,

1:09:43

but that message was I mean

1:09:45

I can't be certain of this

1:09:47

but almost deliberately given to him

1:09:49

You know because that just kind

1:09:51

of doesn't line up with what

1:09:53

the message is and and and

1:09:55

and the fact that that he could

1:09:57

read it because, you

1:09:59

know, if this was something that these

1:10:01

extraterrestrials didn't want him to have,

1:10:03

then it wouldn't have been in, I

1:10:06

would assume it wouldn't have been in English, right?

1:10:09

Unless they communicate in English, which

1:10:11

would also be strange. But yeah,

1:10:13

I mean, that's just such a

1:10:16

bizarre, you know,

1:10:18

encoding to receive. You would almost think

1:10:20

that, yeah, it was deliberate that

1:10:22

he was meant to get this message.

1:10:24

What do you make of that

1:10:26

message? What is that? What general

1:10:28

sort of gestalt do you take

1:10:31

away from that? It's difficult

1:10:33

to get away from the

1:10:35

time travel aspect of this. And,

1:10:37

you know, people say, well,

1:10:39

is it alien or is it

1:10:41

time travel? The

1:10:44

two are not mutually exclusive. Again,

1:10:46

any civilization that's mastered

1:10:49

interstellar travel might also have

1:10:51

mastered time travel. that

1:10:55

being said, you know, origin

1:10:57

year 8100. And

1:10:59

then my attention was

1:11:02

drawn after, long after

1:11:04

this happened. My

1:11:06

attention was drawn to the work

1:11:08

of a theoretical physicist called

1:11:10

Ronald Mallett. And Ronald

1:11:12

Mallett is one of the

1:11:15

few theoretical physicists doing research

1:11:17

into time travel. And

1:11:19

he subsequently

1:11:21

said, I

1:11:24

don't believe he had heard of Randall

1:11:26

Schum and he had no particular interest

1:11:28

in UFOs, but he just said, if

1:11:30

you ever wanted to send a message

1:11:32

back through time, you would

1:11:34

use a subatomic particle

1:11:36

stream and you would choose

1:11:38

subatomic particles that had a

1:11:41

spin state of either

1:11:43

up or down and you

1:11:45

could then manipulate that. And

1:11:47

that would enable you to

1:11:49

send a binary message back in

1:11:51

time. And so, of course,

1:11:53

I had that light bulb moment

1:11:55

in my head. I'm like,

1:11:58

wait, this is exactly what Jim

1:12:00

Peniston said. Wow. That

1:12:05

is, you

1:12:07

know, also just writing

1:12:09

down 16 pages of anything,

1:12:12

let alone a coherent code.

1:12:14

I mean, I can. even

1:12:16

if I could just draw zeros without

1:12:18

ones, that's a lot of effort. To

1:12:21

do sort of

1:12:23

mundanely and unconsciously, like

1:12:25

16 pages is

1:12:27

a lot. That's

1:12:29

a lot of writing. It is.

1:12:32

And he, looking

1:12:34

back on it, he can't

1:12:36

really explain his state of

1:12:38

mind at the time. The

1:12:40

nearest he got to it

1:12:42

was It's almost like he's

1:12:44

under a compulsion of a

1:12:46

chance. Yeah. Yeah,

1:12:48

it's like he was

1:12:50

not himself Have you

1:12:52

ever encountered any other

1:12:54

witnesses that described some

1:12:56

type of download during during

1:12:58

your investigations? Not

1:13:01

quite like that,

1:13:03

but I have

1:13:05

come across abductees

1:13:07

people who've had

1:13:10

close encounters who believe that

1:13:12

they've had some sort of

1:13:14

communication, a telepathic download of

1:13:16

a message. But usually those

1:13:18

messages are very cliched. I

1:13:21

mean, abductees get told things

1:13:23

like, this won't hurt. And

1:13:25

then it does. It's almost like

1:13:27

a, you know, like, again, like John

1:13:29

Mack, like what a doctor tells

1:13:31

you just before he sticks the needle

1:13:33

in. Don't worry, this won't hurt.

1:13:35

Yeah. But also very

1:13:37

what I would call

1:13:39

almost cliched. messages about

1:13:41

the danger of pollution,

1:13:44

nuclear war, although that does

1:13:46

of course segue into

1:13:49

what we discussed about the

1:13:51

UFO nuclear connection. But

1:13:53

again, it's why would these

1:13:55

abductees get a message

1:13:57

like that when, frankly,

1:13:59

I don't mean this in a

1:14:01

disparaging way, but they are not

1:14:03

personally in any position to do

1:14:05

anything about that. It's not like

1:14:07

they're the president. or

1:14:09

the prime minister or something, it's

1:14:12

just ordinary people. Yeah, I completely

1:14:14

agree with that sentiment. It's something

1:14:16

that's really stuck out to me,

1:14:18

researching a lot of abduction cases,

1:14:20

and even from the children in

1:14:22

Rua to more modern cases, even

1:14:24

Chris Bledsoe, they were all sort

1:14:26

of given these messages of, oh,

1:14:28

the world, you got to take

1:14:31

care of the world, we can't

1:14:33

be destroying it, all this stuff.

1:14:35

And in my head, I always

1:14:37

think, well, what

1:14:39

good is that? Why are

1:14:41

you telling these people?

1:14:43

All you're doing is traumatizing

1:14:45

people. And then these people

1:14:47

just end up, you know, at

1:14:50

the very most in partaking

1:14:52

in whatever that is, the very

1:14:54

most like going to like

1:14:56

writing a book and going to

1:14:59

UFO conventions. Like there's no

1:15:01

actual change being made to, you

1:15:03

know, a completely Change

1:15:06

the way we behave into in

1:15:08

regards to the environment or war

1:15:10

or anything else. There's no significant

1:15:12

changes happening. They are aware of

1:15:14

that. You know, you would almost

1:15:16

think like, well, if you have

1:15:18

the capacity to zip around like

1:15:21

this and do all these things

1:15:23

and implant these thoughts and these

1:15:25

messages, like just do it yourself,

1:15:27

you know, and exactly, you know,

1:15:29

which brings me back to this

1:15:31

analogy of the magician's trick. It's

1:15:33

it's like. Maybe that's just what

1:15:36

they want you to think this

1:15:38

is. It's like, oh yeah, they're

1:15:40

here for giving us warnings, but

1:15:42

maybe what's actually going on is

1:15:44

something completely different. Maybe

1:15:46

it's a psychological evaluation of

1:15:48

humanity and that they're giving

1:15:50

these messages to people not

1:15:52

because those people are able

1:15:55

to act. on them, but

1:15:57

to see how they react

1:15:59

to them. Hmm. Might also be

1:16:01

some type of justification for the procedures that they've

1:16:03

been doing as well. Like, I mean, if you

1:16:05

say, you know, ow, that hurt. And then they

1:16:07

go, yeah, but look at how bad you're, you're

1:16:09

treating the world. And you go, oh, and you

1:16:11

feel sad. And then they go, see, you're the

1:16:13

bad guy, not me. And we kind of like

1:16:16

accept that exchange of like, oh, they did this

1:16:18

for the greater good. Yes.

1:16:20

I mean, I think one

1:16:22

of Jack Ferley's books, wasn't

1:16:24

it, was, you know, messages

1:16:26

of deception or whatever the

1:16:28

title is. But the idea

1:16:30

of deception runs, I mean,

1:16:33

of course, it's one

1:16:35

of these great ironies. UAP

1:16:37

are often investigated by people

1:16:39

in military intelligence where deception runs

1:16:41

through as a theme. And

1:16:43

the phenomenon itself demonstrates I would

1:16:45

argue it a degree of

1:16:47

deception deception as to its true

1:16:49

nature. You know, maybe like

1:16:51

John Max said, it looks like

1:16:53

a medical procedure, but it

1:16:56

may be something different. It sounds

1:16:58

like these people have been

1:17:00

given warnings about nuclear war and

1:17:02

pollution, but maybe it's something

1:17:04

else. And the idea that there

1:17:06

is deception at both ends

1:17:08

of the phenomenon, the phenomenon itself.

1:17:10

And then those who investigate

1:17:12

it and try and interpret it

1:17:14

is kind of one of

1:17:16

those cosmic ironies. And then it

1:17:18

brings you to the idea

1:17:20

that that some of this, again,

1:17:23

I've mentioned how surreal some

1:17:25

of this is when you get

1:17:27

past the self -censorship, that

1:17:29

some of this is almost like,

1:17:31

and then this is a phrase that's

1:17:33

been coined, of course, the cosmic

1:17:35

joker. And every culture

1:17:37

in human history has had a

1:17:39

trickster God. What comes to

1:17:42

mind when you say that is something that

1:17:44

you've investigated when you say the cosmic

1:17:46

joker? What's one thing that comes to mind

1:17:48

as you say that? Well, back to

1:17:50

the art shop and and that kind of

1:17:52

thing. Yeah, you just it's like it's

1:17:54

almost ludicrous. It's it's like a Monty Python

1:17:56

sketch. Right.

1:17:59

Yeah. Yeah. Well, truth is

1:18:01

in my opinion, often, you know, stranger

1:18:03

than fiction. A lot of

1:18:05

times. So fascinating,

1:18:08

so bizarre, so weird,

1:18:10

you know, and you said

1:18:12

to they demonstrate things. So

1:18:14

that that itself is an

1:18:16

act of. whatever

1:18:18

that is. Like why are they

1:18:20

demonstrating these things? They are demonstrating

1:18:22

them. They know very well we

1:18:24

have capabilities of picking them up

1:18:26

on radar or, you know, attracting

1:18:29

them through, you know, mental processes,

1:18:31

i .e. psionics or any of

1:18:33

these things. So, you know, there's

1:18:35

that question. Why? Why show yourself

1:18:37

is the big question, right? Sure.

1:18:39

We can do stealth.

1:18:41

So absolutely any civilization

1:18:43

that's mastered interstellar travel,

1:18:45

you know, self -evidently

1:18:47

wouldn't be seen unless

1:18:49

they wanted to be

1:18:51

seen, which brings me

1:18:53

back to the speculation. If

1:18:56

you say they want to

1:18:58

be seen, they want to

1:19:00

interact with people and have...

1:19:03

There is an agenda here.

1:19:06

What that agenda is, I

1:19:08

don't know. Maybe it's,

1:19:10

like I say, a psychological

1:19:12

evaluation of certain individuals

1:19:14

or of humanity collectively. But

1:19:16

maybe it's something else

1:19:18

that we don't, like I

1:19:20

mentioned, have the conceptual

1:19:22

awareness. But they are showing

1:19:25

this, as you say,

1:19:27

they are demonstrating something to

1:19:29

us for a reason.

1:19:31

It smacks of purpose and

1:19:33

deliberateness. Yeah. It

1:19:35

would be hard for us to believe that it's just

1:19:37

straight up negligence. But maybe

1:19:39

that's also a possibility. Maybe

1:19:41

they are making, you know, they're

1:19:43

fallible as well. They might,

1:19:46

but I'm drawn by something that

1:19:48

David Grush said recently. And

1:19:50

again, David Grush is really, when

1:19:52

people say, well,

1:19:55

how many people did David Grush

1:19:57

talk to? And why was he

1:19:59

doing this? He was doing this

1:20:02

because Jay Stratton told him to

1:20:04

do this. I mean, Jay Stratton,

1:20:06

who headed up the UAP task

1:20:08

force, told David Grush, you

1:20:10

go. To the all the different

1:20:12

parts of the intelligence community all

1:20:14

the different parts of the military

1:20:16

go find out who knows what.

1:20:19

So when david grush came back

1:20:21

and said i've talked to

1:20:23

40 people and all the rumors

1:20:25

are true there really are

1:20:27

intelligence community legacy programs doing. Crash

1:20:29

retrievals and reverse engineering that

1:20:31

was not him pursuing some sort

1:20:33

of hobby or that that

1:20:35

was him following a. an order

1:20:37

that he'd been given by

1:20:39

the head of the UAP task

1:20:41

force. But my point is

1:20:43

that he said one aspect of

1:20:45

this was that some of

1:20:47

this was almost like gifts from

1:20:49

the gods. Donations. Yeah. He

1:20:51

said some of these things had not

1:20:53

crashed. They had been left for us.

1:20:56

Yeah. Yeah. That's a

1:20:58

really hard one to grasp

1:21:00

as well because, you know,

1:21:03

If it is future

1:21:05

humans, then that

1:21:08

almost doesn't make sense

1:21:10

unless there's some type

1:21:12

of time manipulation. They

1:21:15

want to give us this

1:21:17

technology so that we will figure

1:21:19

it out and build it.

1:21:21

And once we've built it, then

1:21:24

we need to go back

1:21:26

and put it or messages about

1:21:28

it to Rendlesham Forest in

1:21:30

1980. Isaac Asimov story,

1:21:32

I think the end of eternity,

1:21:34

which deals with this kind

1:21:36

of nature that, yeah,

1:21:39

the people going back, you

1:21:41

know, have to kind of go

1:21:43

back in time and give the

1:21:45

mathematical equations, which will lead to

1:21:48

the development of time travel so

1:21:50

that it can be done in

1:21:52

the first place and round and

1:21:54

round it goes. Yeah,

1:21:56

too much for my

1:21:58

meager brain to conceptualize.

1:22:00

Mine too, but I

1:22:02

can kind of say

1:22:04

the words, but whether

1:22:07

it really, I

1:22:09

don't know, permeates, I

1:22:11

don't know. Yeah, yeah, chicken or egg, you

1:22:13

know, what came first? Well, in

1:22:15

the UFOscape, it would definitely

1:22:17

be egg. This

1:22:20

brings me to another famous case

1:22:22

that I'd like to talk about is

1:22:24

the Calvin case. Now,

1:22:27

recently in... James

1:22:29

Fox's documentary, the program, you

1:22:32

were featured as a key

1:22:34

figure when discussing the Calvin

1:22:36

UFO case, because during your

1:22:38

time there, you

1:22:41

had come across these

1:22:43

photos, these famous

1:22:45

photos of what

1:22:47

seemed like this giant

1:22:49

diamond shaped craft

1:22:51

being intercepted or observed

1:22:53

by a fighter

1:22:55

jet from from

1:22:58

the Air Force

1:23:00

when who was

1:23:02

it? It was

1:23:04

Craig Lindsey. He

1:23:07

was the Royal Air Force,

1:23:09

the press officer who recently came

1:23:11

forward with an image that

1:23:13

he said is one of the

1:23:15

originals. Now, I can't comment

1:23:17

on whether it is or not

1:23:20

simply because the Ministry of

1:23:22

Defense hasn't commented on that. So

1:23:24

when I talk about these

1:23:26

cases, I can only talk about

1:23:28

them because the Ministry of

1:23:30

Defense has themselves declassified and released

1:23:32

some of the information because

1:23:35

they haven't commented on the authenticity

1:23:37

of Craig Lindsey's picture. You

1:23:39

can't confirm. I can't confirm or

1:23:41

deny. But absolutely,

1:23:43

we had six images and

1:23:45

the associated negatives. We

1:23:48

had one of them, the best

1:23:50

one blown up to sort of

1:23:52

poster size. And we had it

1:23:54

literally on our office wall. So

1:23:57

a few years back, when

1:24:00

they declassified the file, there

1:24:02

was a photocopy of a

1:24:04

line drawing in there. So

1:24:06

from that, and just from

1:24:08

my memory, because this was

1:24:10

on my office wall for

1:24:12

years, I did with a

1:24:14

graphic artist from Los Angeles,

1:24:16

we did a CGI recreation.

1:24:20

And it's pretty similar

1:24:22

to the Craig

1:24:24

Lindsey photo. So people

1:24:26

can can make of that what they

1:24:28

will. But yeah, absolutely. These

1:24:30

pictures were real daylight footage

1:24:32

of this huge diamond shaped

1:24:34

craft that the witness that

1:24:36

the two witnesses said just

1:24:39

hung there in the sky

1:24:41

and then accelerated off at

1:24:43

high speed. But this time

1:24:45

straight up. We

1:24:48

looked at it in

1:24:50

the Ministry of Defense. Obviously,

1:24:52

we had access to

1:24:54

JARIC, which was the Joint

1:24:56

Air Reconnaissance and Intelligence

1:24:58

Center. So again,

1:25:00

imagery analysis, intelligence

1:25:02

community, imagery analysis

1:25:04

folks. They

1:25:06

looked at all this and they

1:25:08

said, yeah, it's real. It's

1:25:10

whatever it is. It's like 75

1:25:12

feet across. you

1:25:15

know, it's a solid structured craft, but

1:25:17

we have no idea what it is. And

1:25:19

that, because there are people online that

1:25:21

say, oh, it's like, it's the mountain in

1:25:23

the background or some type of water

1:25:25

reflection or anything like that. You're saying that

1:25:27

this is definitely a solid craft, that

1:25:29

this is what it perceives to be. Correct.

1:25:32

And firstly, of course, the

1:25:34

people that are saying that they're

1:25:37

working off the Craig Lindsey

1:25:39

image, like I say, I'm not

1:25:41

commenting on that, but we

1:25:43

had six. images. And

1:25:45

this was an

1:25:48

official intelligence community analysis.

1:25:51

This was not a fake. This was not

1:25:53

some sort of optical illusion. So

1:25:55

yeah, I've seen all sorts

1:25:57

of speculation online. Like it's

1:25:59

a mountain peak, wreathed in

1:26:02

clouds. It's like a reflection of

1:26:04

a rock in a pond. It's a Christmas

1:26:06

ornament. Yada,

1:26:08

yada, yada. No, that

1:26:10

was not... was not

1:26:13

the assessment of the

1:26:15

British intelligence community. On

1:26:17

a scale of 1 to

1:26:19

10, 10 being, you

1:26:22

know, the clearest image

1:26:24

of a UFO that you've

1:26:26

ever seen during your

1:26:29

time there. Where does this

1:26:31

Calvin photo sit? Oh,

1:26:33

it's 10. It's a 10. It's

1:26:35

a 10. Yeah. You've not come

1:26:37

across anything else that is as

1:26:40

striking as this one. Is that

1:26:42

because the multiple images? That's

1:26:44

part of it. Yes. Multiple

1:26:47

images, also daylight images, because the

1:26:49

key point about that is so

1:26:51

many pictures of UFOs are taken

1:26:53

at night. And you don't

1:26:55

have any other features in, but where

1:26:57

you've got a daylight picture with like

1:26:59

the ground, a distant forest. Four ground

1:27:02

as well. Yeah, you can triangulate. Yeah.

1:27:04

And once you can triangulate, you can

1:27:06

start to make some calculations about the

1:27:08

distance of the object from the lens,

1:27:10

the height of the object, the diameter

1:27:12

of the object, that sort of thing.

1:27:14

And the size compared to another craft

1:27:16

as well. I think it's an important

1:27:18

piece of information. Yes. You

1:27:23

think that pilot will ever be located? I'm

1:27:26

not going to comment on that.

1:27:28

Sorry. Again, you know, I

1:27:30

have to be very careful. Of

1:27:32

course. The official Secrets Act in

1:27:34

the UK is binding for life.

1:27:36

I see. And when I talk

1:27:38

about this, I can only talk

1:27:41

about cases that are either unclassified

1:27:43

or the Ministry of Defense has

1:27:45

declassified. So I can't, yeah,

1:27:47

I can't preempt them. And there

1:27:49

are some, some, sorry. I'm

1:27:51

not really able to comment on the pilot.

1:27:53

Sure. And I appreciate

1:27:55

the answer, regardless. And I

1:27:57

apologize for asking, but it

1:27:59

is my duty to ask

1:28:01

these questions. It's absolutely. I

1:28:04

understand and respect that. Okay.

1:28:06

Yeah. Let's

1:28:10

see here. Well,

1:28:13

I mean, I have more

1:28:15

questions about the Calvin, but

1:28:17

I think we'll move past

1:28:19

that. I want to get

1:28:21

into... Now your work well

1:28:23

before actually before we get

1:28:25

into ancient aliens and and

1:28:27

your work with the history

1:28:29

channel what you're currently doing

1:28:31

and and the projects that

1:28:33

you're working on now I

1:28:35

did want to ask one

1:28:37

last thing Did you ever

1:28:39

encounter or hear of stories

1:28:41

from the people that you've

1:28:43

visited of them being visited

1:28:45

prior to your visitation it

1:28:47

It did come up, yes.

1:28:50

I guess you would call this men

1:28:52

in black kind of cases. From time

1:28:54

to time, it would be, well, why

1:28:56

are you asking me all this? I've

1:28:58

already told those guys, like,

1:29:01

wait, what guys? And

1:29:03

I didn't have a lot

1:29:05

of that, but it did

1:29:07

happen from time to time.

1:29:10

And the other thing is

1:29:12

it wasn't... on the

1:29:14

cases that you would think would

1:29:16

be the significant ones. Sometimes it would

1:29:18

be on a really what you

1:29:20

would think was a really low data

1:29:22

case. Like just just a

1:29:24

sort of casual light in the

1:29:26

sky thing. And then then

1:29:28

you get this story about men

1:29:30

in black. And it's like, well,

1:29:32

you would think if you were

1:29:35

going to get that, you would

1:29:37

get it with the flagship crown

1:29:39

jewel cases, Randall Schum, Calvin. Well,

1:29:41

of course they do say that.

1:29:43

it happened in Kelvin than that's

1:29:45

another story. But to find it

1:29:47

happening, just John

1:29:49

Smith out walking his dog

1:29:52

on a wet Tuesday evening,

1:29:54

seeing a momentary light in

1:29:56

the sky, a case

1:29:58

that you would think nothing of.

1:30:00

You couldn't even investigate. Over

1:30:03

and above saying, well, is it on

1:30:05

a flight path? Was there

1:30:07

a meteor shower that night? was

1:30:11

there any satellite that might have

1:30:13

been, that sort of thing. But

1:30:16

a really low data case. And

1:30:18

then suddenly you would have, and these

1:30:20

two guys turned up, interviewed me at

1:30:22

great length, told me it would probably

1:30:24

be in my interests not to

1:30:26

discuss this. And you

1:30:28

would think, why on a

1:30:30

case like that, when

1:30:32

it almost draws your attention

1:30:34

to it, and then

1:30:36

you think, but maybe that's

1:30:39

the point. Hmm. Were

1:30:41

the descriptions of

1:30:43

these men ever bizarre?

1:30:47

It was almost always just, you

1:30:49

know, government people in dark

1:30:51

suits. I see. Yeah, never like

1:30:53

balled with big eyes or...

1:30:55

Not like that. Overly tall or

1:30:57

nothing like that. I've heard

1:30:59

of those sorts of cases mainly

1:31:01

in the US, but it

1:31:03

was generally just, well, these people

1:31:05

look like they were government

1:31:07

or air force in... civilian clothes.

1:31:10

And American accents? No.

1:31:14

British. British. In the UK, British. So

1:31:16

I mean, immediately as someone who is

1:31:18

working at the secret levels of the

1:31:20

government, I mean, that must raise a

1:31:22

red flag for you. You must be

1:31:24

thinking, well, who else is working on

1:31:26

the same things that I'm working on?

1:31:28

And how did they come about this

1:31:30

information prior to me receiving it like

1:31:32

that? Did you ever look into that? Yes.

1:31:35

And and again, We worked

1:31:37

with, I mean, you asked me

1:31:39

earlier, could there be

1:31:41

another unit doing this on

1:31:43

a clandestine basis? And my

1:31:45

answer is I struggled to

1:31:47

see how they would get

1:31:49

the data. Because, I mean,

1:31:51

we were the ones who

1:31:53

had literally a UFO hotline

1:31:56

for, like I say, the

1:31:58

85, 90 plus percent cases

1:32:00

that came from the public.

1:32:02

Now, you know, I guess someone

1:32:04

could bug the line. That's easy

1:32:06

to do. But sometimes you meet people

1:32:08

face to face, you hear

1:32:10

things, you have face to face

1:32:13

conversations with Air Force people. And

1:32:15

we it's not like we didn't

1:32:17

do this ourselves. I mean, we

1:32:19

did, of course, we did, like,

1:32:21

for example, covertly

1:32:23

attend UFO conferences,

1:32:25

for example. Really?

1:32:28

Yeah, I've done that.

1:32:30

There's even there's even

1:32:32

there's a declassified. paper

1:32:35

in a Ministry of Defence

1:32:37

file somewhere at the National Archives

1:32:39

with me saying to one

1:32:41

of my opposite numbers in Defence

1:32:43

Intelligence, something like, I just

1:32:45

come back from the conference, lots

1:32:47

of chatter about X and Y,

1:32:50

you know, that sort of thing.

1:32:52

And they did the same themselves.

1:32:54

It was just who can go

1:32:56

to the conference, they're having the

1:32:59

big conference this weekend. And it

1:33:01

was literally, well, who's

1:33:03

free? Who's

1:33:05

closer to

1:33:08

geographically? And one time

1:33:10

I went along and I took

1:33:12

a, you know, you always, like,

1:33:14

I took someone, I took it,

1:33:16

it's probably totally illegal, but I

1:33:18

took like a civilian friend of

1:33:20

mine, not even in the Ministry

1:33:22

of Defense, female, who

1:33:25

I just thought, Well, it's good.

1:33:27

You're much more likely to get

1:33:29

busted if you're like a single

1:33:31

male. But

1:33:33

Gell is a couple and no one's

1:33:35

going to question you. So we

1:33:38

did that. Interesting. So

1:33:40

there almost certainly is. So we were

1:33:42

the men in black. Right. She was the

1:33:44

women in black. And one

1:33:46

time she actually did

1:33:48

this with two different

1:33:50

people. One of the

1:33:52

women definitely lent into

1:33:54

this. would