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1:13

Condition Supply. Hello, really, welcome back to another

1:16

episode of Decoding the Unknown. Today, John Zegris, the Impossible

1:18

Man from a country that did not exist. Isn't this

1:20

the guy, like, showed up in Japan, and he had

1:22

some, like, is this the man from Torred? I

1:24

feel like this has been covered many times on YouTube. I've watched, I've

1:26

probably made a video about this. Maybe it's a different man from Torred.

1:28

I feel like this has been covered many times on. Anyway, the format

1:30

of the show, if you, if you know, if you know, if you

1:32

know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know,

1:34

if you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if

1:36

you know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you

1:38

know, if you know, if you know, if you know, if you, if

1:40

you know, if you know, if you, Behind this wall

1:43

is an enormous amount of mess. Normally

1:45

you see my studio, but the new

1:47

set is being built and all of

1:49

the stuff from that set is now

1:51

behind this set. So, well, that's what's

1:53

going on. It looks neat and tidy,

1:55

doesn't it? With that, like, with this fake

1:57

wall here, don't fall over. It's really...

2:00

people on the podcast listen to

2:02

this like what you're talking about what

2:04

you're talking about this goes out on

2:06

YouTube as well let's jump into

2:08

it When

2:13

the businessman John Zegris landed in

2:15

Tokyo Airport Japan yes in

2:17

1954 his arrival and subsequent

2:19

exit Sparked a mystery that

2:21

rumbled on for decades and

2:23

he was firmly believed by

2:26

many that the mysterious mr

2:28

Zegris Mr. Mr. arrived from

2:30

a place that was considerably

2:32

further a place that was

2:34

considerably further away than anyone

2:36

could have imagined But was

2:38

he a super spy a

2:40

time traveler an alien? or from

2:42

another dimension because as far as we know

2:44

those things are impossible. Well first of all

2:46

through God all things are possible so jot

2:49

that down. I don't think it was a

2:51

superspire either if I remember this story correctly

2:53

I think you just had some but the

2:55

Japanese couldn't read his passport or something. Did

2:57

he come from like Andorra or some shit

2:59

like that? Well like one of those tiny

3:01

European countries. This story of a man from

3:03

a country that never existed might already sound

3:05

like a particularly loopy size of folklore of

3:07

folklore with zero basis in reality. But hold

3:10

your interdimensional unicorns for a dimensional unicorns for

3:12

a minute. while my daughter would get very

3:14

excited that I mentioned unicorns in the video

3:16

today. The unicorn obsession continues. While

3:18

some of the finer details may

3:20

have become distorted and embellished over

3:22

the years, very recent detective work

3:24

from dedicated internet sleuths has revealed

3:26

that the curious tale of John

3:28

Zegris is very much based on

3:30

an intriguing true story about a

3:32

mystery man based in a fictional

3:34

land who was most certainly not

3:36

who he claimed to be. Oh,

3:38

okay, maybe there's something new since

3:40

I last learned about this. High

3:43

Play, which we'd be surprised since

3:45

1954. Although mysteries get solved. Like

3:47

the Celebrity Six One on

3:49

the shower curtain, that was

3:51

solved. The tape, the mysterious

3:53

tape with that band song

3:55

on, that got solved. Maybe

3:58

we finally solved Zegris. Zegris

4:00

didn't look like the kind of bloke

4:02

who would have expected any kind of

4:04

trouble in getting through the airport immigration

4:07

queue, at least not in the most

4:09

widely sheared version of the story, which

4:11

had been frequently recounted across the internet

4:13

over the last 13 years. Zegris was

4:15

a smartly dressed and apparently well-traveled Caucasian

4:18

gentleman, rocking an expensive suit and a

4:20

slightly grey beard. He gave off the

4:22

air of a stylish and well-spoken professional

4:24

who probably owned a trouser press, a

4:27

personalized cigarette case. And a subscription to

4:29

the Financial Times. A personalized cigarette

4:31

case is kind of dope. I don't

4:33

smoke. Yeah, I bet I would if it

4:35

wasn't horrible for you. And if I did

4:38

smoke, I would absolutely have a personalized cigarette

4:40

case, like one of those nice silver ones

4:42

that you kind of flip open and take

4:45

a cigarette out of it, maybe I'd like

4:47

to build into the bottom. The dream. And

4:49

I think I do have a subscription to

4:51

the Financial Times. I think my company might.

4:54

He wasn't really admitting any strong warning signals

4:56

that he was exactly the kind of guy

4:58

who needed to be stopped and searched immediately

5:01

in case he was smuggling thousands of dollars

5:03

of cocaine in his bottom. Not that this

5:05

would have been a major problem in Tokyo

5:07

Airport in 1954 anyway. Security was pretty slack

5:09

back in the old days when nobody was

5:12

too worried about smuggling hijackings or terrorism. Yeah,

5:14

it's such an alien idea now, like that

5:16

back in the day getting on a plane

5:18

used to be like getting on a bus.

5:20

Like, welcome on board! Oh, now terrorism

5:23

has ruined that for everyone, haven't they? Worst.

5:25

It's the worst. I was going to say

5:27

I was going to say it's the worst

5:29

thing that terrorists have done, but obviously that

5:32

would be an insane statement. Passengers were trusted

5:34

to just make their way to the gate

5:36

without trying to blow anything up, whilst passport

5:38

and ticket checks were very quick and basic.

5:40

As long as your picture on the passport

5:43

vaguely resembled the face of a human, you

5:45

were usually good to go. So it's not

5:47

immediately clear why the passport of John Zegris

5:49

was given such close scrutiny when he arrived

5:52

at Heneida Airport in Otter City in

5:54

Tokyo on a blisteringly hot day in

5:56

July 1954. Perhaps this particular passport clerk

5:58

just took place. in his job. I

6:01

was the 50s. Did they have air

6:03

conditioning inside in the 1950s? Did they

6:05

have air conditioning in madmen? I think

6:08

so, right? Or at least it was

6:10

becoming a thing. But that

6:12

was the 60s. So probably not,

6:14

right? That's going to be extremely

6:16

unpleasant. I recently went to

6:19

Morocco. And I had to stand. I

6:21

just arrived. I just rammed. I'm not

6:23

joking. I stood in the god damn

6:25

queue for three hours. It was hot

6:27

and uncomfortable. Perhaps this

6:29

particular passport clerk just took pride

6:31

in his job, or perhaps he

6:33

just enjoyed trying to guess the

6:35

nationality of every passenger that he

6:37

waved through. Yeah, dude, I would

6:39

be exactly the same way. Like

6:42

if I had this job, I'd come up with

6:44

games. And I'd just be like, just playing

6:46

games all day, being like, mmm, Spain. And

6:48

they'd be like, Spain. Yes! And Pete, the

6:51

immigration officer next me, would be like, what

6:53

the fwhistler. He would have had a hard

6:55

time. The passport itself looked perfectly genuine. There

6:58

was just a minor quibble with one

7:00

of the details. According to the passport, John

7:02

Zegris held for a country called Turad. And

7:04

the problem here is that the country of

7:06

Turad does not exist, at least not in

7:09

our version of reality. The passport clerk reportedly

7:11

popped off to check with a few of

7:13

his colleagues, as I guess it wasn't out

7:15

of the question that he might not have

7:17

been familiar with the country. I don't think

7:19

you need a PhD in geography to get

7:21

a job as a passport clerk. If someone

7:23

told me that they were born in a

7:26

country called St. Vincent and the Grenadines, I

7:28

might have initially assumed that they were mixing

7:30

up real countries with the names of 1970's

7:32

glam rock bands. Up until today, I had

7:34

no idea that this was a genuine country,

7:36

in the Eastern Caribbean. tiny little countries that

7:38

you're like, there's 180 countries

7:40

in the world. And you're just like, oh,

7:42

you know, there's so many. I want how

7:44

many countries I could name. I better could

7:47

name like 50, which is barely a quarter.

7:49

However, another clerk's colleagues had heard of

7:51

Torred either, and sensing that something fishy

7:53

was going down here, John's Eggras was

7:56

politely asked to step out of the

7:58

queue and take a sea. in the

8:00

customs interrogation room so that this puzzling

8:02

matter could be quickly cleared up with

8:04

immigration officers. Zegra seemed quite bemused by

8:06

the whole thing at first, and probably

8:09

just assumed that everyone who worked here

8:11

was a fool. He claimed to have

8:13

never experienced a problem like this before,

8:15

and his extensive travels around the globe,

8:17

which were clearly documented with authentic passport

8:19

stamps. He explained that this was the

8:22

third time this year alone that had

8:24

visited Edwin questioned over his roots. Zegris

8:26

was happy to hand over several other

8:28

personal possessions for inspection, including a wallet

8:30

stuffed with currencies from different European countries.

8:32

Why? Why wouldn't you leave those at

8:35

home? You're going to Japan. Your random

8:37

European currency isn't going to be very

8:39

useful. He showed off his driver's license

8:41

issued by the country of Torred and

8:43

a checkbook issued by a bank in

8:45

Torred, both of which looked completely legit

8:48

aside from the minor inconsistencies with the

8:50

country not appearing on any known map

8:52

of earth. He also furnished the officials

8:54

with details of a genuine hotel in

8:56

Tokyo where he was booked to stay

8:58

in the genuine company at which he

9:01

worked. The whole reason for his business

9:03

trip was to keep an important appointment

9:05

with the Tokyo Division. And here's the

9:07

funny thing about John Zegris. He said...

9:09

wasn't coming across as a deluded soul

9:11

or a silly prankster. During the year

9:14

you don't want to do this sort

9:16

of prank. Like that'd be a lesson,

9:18

YouTube people. Don't make a fake passport

9:20

and go traveling. All right? You're going

9:22

to end up in prison." During the

9:24

initial conversations, he kept himself calm and

9:27

collected coming across as a serious and

9:29

intellectual business professional who was now just

9:31

a bit baffled after hitting a completely

9:33

unexpected problem. He was also cooperating with

9:35

officials in any way that he possibly

9:37

could, as he seemed keen to get

9:40

this misunderstanding dealt with as quickly as

9:42

possible, so that he could check into

9:44

his hotel and set up that trouser

9:46

press. uh... yeah they were you know

9:48

you go through passport control or whatever

9:50

and anytime there's any sort of delay

9:53

i was just say to my wife

9:55

remember if they if they take you

9:57

If they make you step aside, or

9:59

whatever, just tell them that you're an

10:01

international businesswoman on international business. Because we

10:03

both liked how I met your mother.

10:06

And that was one of the funniest

10:08

scenes I've ever seen. We are international

10:10

businessmen. On a very important international business

10:12

trip. I demand you release us immediately.

10:14

We are international businessmen. My colleague accidentally

10:16

left the bags there. Now please let

10:19

us go before we miss our international

10:21

business meeting. However the atmosphere did eventually

10:23

grow a little tense when it became

10:25

apparent that John Zegris and the officials

10:27

were just going around in circles by

10:29

taking it in turns to argue about

10:31

whether or not Torred was a real

10:34

country. As the interview descended into a

10:36

pantomide gurus of, oh yes it is!

10:38

And oh no it isn't! Eventually, one

10:40

of the officials came up with a

10:42

bright idea of pulling out a map

10:44

and getting Zegris to point at his

10:47

fictional country. Quakes to flash Zegris stretches

10:49

out his finger to indicate the exact

10:51

location of his motherland, but then his

10:53

face falls. His eyes begin to dart

10:55

around the room with a mixture of

10:57

suspicion and genuine bewildment and fear. The

11:00

place that he's pointing to is the

11:02

Principality of Andorra. There's Monaco. Lichtenstein, Vatican

11:04

City, Andorra? I guess there's some other

11:06

island ones, there's some islands, maybe? That

11:08

kind of thing? Maybe? Island Man's not

11:10

a separate country, no, that's UK. Oh,

11:13

I don't know. I'm not going to

11:15

get them. Today it's notable for being

11:17

a contender, for the home to the

11:19

most scenic branch of McDonald's in the

11:21

world, offering views of the Pyrenees Mountains,

11:23

as he knowsbeg French fries. The country

11:26

is also notable for not having an

11:28

army, a railway station. A railway station.

11:30

or an airport which might have made

11:32

life quite difficult for a frequent flyer

11:34

like John Zegris who would have had

11:36

to make his own way to either

11:39

France or Spain before hopping on a

11:41

plane. Probably not that much of a

11:43

hassle. Like I live in Prague, Vienna

11:45

Airport is the nearest airport in another

11:47

country and it's like what, three and

11:49

a half hours drive? Some like that?

11:52

Four hours? Not ideal, but not the

11:54

worst thing in the world. But that's

11:56

all academic anyway, Zegris had never heard

11:58

of the principality Vandora, and he was

12:00

now becoming what language are they talking?

12:02

What language does he speak? Do the

12:05

Japanese people, I assume they must converse

12:07

in English? Right, common language? And he

12:09

was now becoming quite troubled and irate

12:11

over what exactly was going on here,

12:13

and why his home country had been

12:15

replaced on what he presumed was a

12:18

fake map. Everything else about the map

12:20

was deemed to be perfectly accurate, as

12:22

just that some scoundrels had replaced Torred

12:24

with Andorra. Tempers were now boiling over

12:26

as Egris accused the officials of playing

12:28

weird mind games with him. He insisted

12:31

that Torred had been around for over

12:33

a thousand years, and he was now

12:35

demanding to see government officials, preferably the

12:37

type who knew how to read a

12:39

real map. If I remember rightly, he's

12:41

from Andorra, right? And there was something

12:44

like the Japanese misread his passport, or

12:46

some such, and they'd never seen Andorran

12:48

passport before, because of such a tiny

12:50

place. For their part, the officials were

12:52

becoming just as confused as Zegris. This

12:54

traveler from nowhere, whose primary language appeared

12:57

to be French, but he was also

12:59

fluent in 13 other languages, including Japanese.

13:01

Holy shit. Seemed to be perfectly respectable,

13:03

and an honest guy who was becoming

13:05

increasingly flummoxed by how his day was

13:07

day was panics day was panics day

13:10

was panics. 30 languages, God damn. I'm

13:12

impressed when someone's like, I speak like

13:14

three languages, I'm like, shh. That's impressive.

13:16

This guy's like, I got 10 on

13:18

that. Initially, I'm sure of how to

13:20

move forward on this. It was eventually

13:23

decided that there were sufficient grounds to

13:25

detain John Zegris on suspicion of traveling

13:27

with a fake passport and perhaps a

13:29

hell of a lot more than that

13:31

once the immigration officials had gotten to

13:33

the bottom of this. His possessions were

13:35

confiscated, on the locked door. at all

13:38

times. Despite his ordeal, Zegras had calmed

13:40

down a bit by the evening and

13:42

was still doing his best to offer

13:44

his full cooperation. Meanwhile, the investigation by

13:46

the immigration officers was going about as

13:48

well as they had expected. Mosla Hotel

13:51

in Tokyo was genuine, the hotel staff

13:53

confirmed that they had received no bookings

13:55

for a Mr. Zegris. Whilst the company

13:57

at which he claimed to work was

13:59

real, they had never heard of him,

14:01

and confirmed that while they did indeed

14:04

have offices in Tokyo, they didn't currently

14:06

have a presence in a country that

14:08

did not exist. It was also impossible

14:10

to get a hold of the bank

14:12

that issued his checkbook as nobody from

14:14

Torred appeared in any phone book. The

14:17

next morning, the guards were instructed to

14:19

check on the visitor and inform him

14:21

that he was invited to participate in

14:23

another discussion with officials to ascertain Exactly

14:25

what he was playing at! The hotel

14:27

room was on the very top floor

14:30

of the building and had no balcony.

14:32

There had always been two guards positioned

14:34

outside the door, and Zegris had not

14:36

left the room all night. Oh yeah,

14:38

he vanishes, doesn't he? So there's a

14:40

little surprising when guards opened the hotel

14:43

room to find it completely empty. If

14:45

that wasn't strange enough, it was later

14:47

discovered that his possessions, locked to an

14:49

entirely separate location, had also vanished into

14:51

thin air. Despite sweeping searches and exhaustive

14:53

inquiries, the man from Torred, was never

14:56

seen again, was never seen again. in

14:58

this dimension. So, just who, in all

15:00

of time and space, was he meant

15:02

to be? And where did he really

15:04

come from? The man who wasn't there.

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28:47

I think I think I just

28:49

won my 4-4-5-5-9-7-7-7-7-9-9. Um I think

28:51

I just Sounds like we just

28:53

leveled up our tax game. Switching

28:55

to H&R Block is easy. Just

28:57

drag and drop your last return.

28:59

It's better with Block. Something like

29:01

a particle could potentially be in

29:03

all possible places or states at

29:06

once and the spread our possibility

29:08

of this is described as a

29:10

wave function. But as soon as

29:12

that particle is observed or measured,

29:14

the wave of possibilities collapses to

29:16

reflect the single outcome of this

29:18

one reality. However, the many worlds'

29:20

interpretation implies that there is no

29:22

such thing as way-function collapse. Instead,

29:24

all the other possibilities of where

29:27

that particle might have been go

29:29

on to be physically realized in

29:31

other non-interacting worlds, theoretically branching off

29:33

into more alternative realities than are

29:35

opposited to the Simpsons. And they're

29:37

still making the Simpsons. I bet

29:39

they are. Season like 700! If

29:41

nothing else, it would put a

29:43

new spin on the shrouding as

29:45

cat thought experiment, in which a

29:48

potentially poisoned cat trapped in a

29:50

sealed box is considered to be

29:52

both alive and dead at the

29:54

same time, until the box has

29:56

been open to observe the cat's

29:58

fate. collapsing the wave function into

30:00

one definite state. According to the

30:02

Many World's interpretation, the wave function

30:04

splits off into different realities after

30:07

the box had been opened, opening

30:09

up one universe in which the

30:11

cat is dead, one universe in

30:13

which the cat is still alive,

30:15

and one universe in which Shrodinger's

30:17

cat had launched its own massively

30:19

successful unboxing channel on YouTube. I

30:22

mean, yes, I know Danny's being absurd,

30:24

but that is kind of the idea

30:26

behind it, that all possible outcomes have

30:28

been achieved in some universe. It's

30:30

a superposition of both states until

30:32

you open it and collapse of

30:34

a function. Says you! There's also

30:36

a lot of drugs in there. It's certainly

30:39

a fascinating notion that there might be

30:41

alternate realities out there in which I

30:44

am an award-winning quantum physicist and Simon

30:46

is a convicted grave robber. I mean,

30:48

it possible! Totally possible! Alas, I mean,

30:51

if you believe in this. Alas, whilst

30:53

the interpretation is many supporters, there are

30:55

scientists who have problems with the idea

30:58

for a whole martyverse of reasons, or

31:00

one of the most significant being that

31:02

if these alternative worlds can't ever observe

31:05

or interact with each other, occasional glitches

31:07

aside, then it's always destined to remain

31:09

a speculative concept that can never be proven

31:11

or disproven. Yeah, do I believe in it?

31:13

I mean... I believe it's maybe possible, but it

31:16

can't ever be proven or disproven, so I

31:18

guess no. It is cool though. So the

31:20

idea of parallel worlds and alternative

31:22

dimensions is something that we've only liked

31:24

to see at works of fiction, such

31:26

as Doctor Strange, everything everywhere all at

31:28

once, and Rick and Mortie. I've seen

31:30

none of those. I know I should see that

31:33

everything everywhere all at once, because it's

31:35

very well rated. I don't think I mean

31:37

Rick and Mortie? I don't watch a lot of

31:39

cartoons a lot of cartoons. And Dr. Strange,

31:41

oh isn't that in the Marvel universe,

31:44

forget that. Speaking of fiction, that's the

31:46

exact same realm in which we'll find

31:48

the true sources of our other two

31:51

time-hopping friends. A few YouTubeers have spent

31:53

time attempting to debunk the story of

31:55

Sergei Ponomeranco by pointing out that some

31:58

of the photographs supposedly depicting... a futuristic

32:00

year in 2050 looks suspiciously like they've

32:02

been photoshopped, and one of them appears

32:04

to have the Empire State Building in

32:07

the background. All right. In fact, the

32:09

truth is very simple. The whole story

32:11

was originally featured on a Ukrainian television

32:14

show from 2012, entitled Aliens. This is

32:16

one of those tacky shows which dramatically

32:18

reconstruct spooky mysterious events with the aid

32:20

of actors who weren't considered quite good

32:23

enough to get the gig on the

32:25

TV commercial for rice crispies. Aliens

32:32

is a particularly poor example as the

32:34

show focuses on some quite ridiculous urban

32:36

legends whilst a blink-and-you-missit disclaimer at the

32:39

beginning reveals that all these stories lack

32:41

conclusive evidence. So whilst it's kind of

32:43

presented as a staged reconstruction for real-life

32:45

event it's actually just complete cods wallet

32:48

from start to finish. It's like, yeah,

32:50

always take based on a true story

32:52

with a giant handful of salt as

32:54

if you're... Gordon Ramsey making popcorn. And

32:56

if you get that reference, it's an

32:59

incredibly niche one. As for the story

33:01

of the 19th century, Rudolph Fence getting

33:03

struck and killed by a taxi in

33:05

Times Square, this has regularly been reported

33:08

as fact. Ever since it appeared in

33:10

a 1953 booklet written by Ralph Holland,

33:12

who presented it as a genuine case

33:14

which suggested a glitch in the fourth

33:16

dimension. Isn't the fourth dimension just time?

33:19

Oh, a case that makes sense. Yeah,

33:21

because this wasn't a parallel universe one.

33:23

This was a time one. In fact,

33:25

Ralpha just stolen the whole idea named

33:28

and all from a fictional story entitled,

33:30

I'm Scared, written by Jack Finney, just

33:32

one year earlier. That's a bit mean.

33:34

You'd think that Ralph would have stopped

33:36

to consider how some readers may have

33:39

noticed this blatant theft and redressing of

33:41

fictionous fact, but to be fair, not

33:43

everybody did, over the next 70 years.

33:45

So a skeptic might immediately assume that

33:48

it's a very similar story with the

33:50

case of John Zegris. The whole thing

33:52

started out as a completely fictional story

33:54

which evolved into urban legend as it

33:56

was later shared and embellished in paranormal

33:59

encyclopedias and around internet campfire. But that

34:01

skeptic would be dead wrong. The man

34:03

who knew too little. For quite some

34:05

time. It was believed that one of

34:07

the earliest sources of the story was

34:10

printed in a 1981 booklet entitled The

34:12

Directory of Possibilities. Yes, it's one of

34:14

those silly paranormal encyclopedias, in this case,

34:16

co-edited by a chap called Colin Wilson,

34:19

who was once described by science writer,

34:21

Martin Gardner, as an intelligent writer, but

34:23

one who had decayed into an occult

34:25

eccentric writing books for the lunatic fringe.

34:27

Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this

34:30

all the time. But it's like if

34:32

you can't sell your fiction, just label

34:34

it as fact. It wasn't Colin Wilson

34:36

who wrote the entry on the man

34:39

from Torred, though. That would be a

34:41

writer named Paul Begg, who had previously

34:43

written a book entitled Into Thrinair, People

34:45

Who Disappear, in 1979. According to the

34:47

further reading section of the directory of

34:50

possibilities, Paul Begg was meant to be

34:52

writing a sequel to his earlier work

34:54

entitled Out of Thin Air, people who

34:56

appear from nowhere, but funnily the book

34:59

never appeared on the shelves. That's a

35:01

shame, as the proposed sequel sounded like

35:03

it may have expanded on the single

35:05

sentence on Torred that appeared in the

35:07

directory of possibilities. Quoting here, in 1954,

35:10

a passport check in Japan is alleged

35:12

to have produced a man with papers

35:14

issued by the nation of Torred. And

35:16

that's all we got. Later in 1999,

35:18

the story was expanded into a whole

35:21

paragraph in the book, Strange But True,

35:23

mysterious and Bazaar People, written by Tom

35:25

Slemon. But he didn't really provide much

35:27

in the way of detail, other than

35:30

to note that the still unnamed traveler

35:32

from Torred left Japan of his own

35:34

accord and presumably somehow went back home.

35:36

It wasn't until 2012, but we begin

35:38

to see the full version of the

35:41

story in an article written by Terence's

35:43

aim, posted on the Before Its News

35:45

website, and is here, that the traveler

35:47

first appeared to acquire his name. And

35:50

it's from this article, the online paranormal

35:52

buffs were first introduced to the details

35:54

involving his documentation, the link with the

35:56

principality of Andorra, and... the final escape

35:58

from a locked top-floor hotel room. Terranzane

36:01

explained that his sources for the story

36:03

had been pulled from several books about

36:05

the weird and strange published during the

36:07

1950s, but he doesn't care to name

36:10

them. This is not sounding very promising

36:12

saver, is it? We might assume that

36:14

Terranzane just took the basic idea from

36:16

the earlier books and fleshed it out

36:18

quite a bit. That's exactly what I'm

36:21

assuming. He's not. I mean, he doesn't,

36:23

because it's probably just nonsense nonsense. Source?

36:25

But whilst we're not quite sure what

36:27

books Terrence was using as his source

36:29

material, I suppose he may have hired

36:32

his reference books from a library in

36:34

another dimension. It seems that maybe his

36:36

sources were a hell of a lot

36:38

more credible than we may have guessed.

36:41

And here's a funny thing about the

36:43

mystery man from Tour Red. Even today

36:45

is often described in the very latest

36:47

online articles. There's a baffling mystery that

36:49

was never conclusively solved. Ooh, is it

36:52

conclusively solved something. And then I'm like,

36:54

oh, the answer's really boring. It's like,

36:56

when you see a magician, did you

36:58

guys watch that masked magician show when

37:01

you were kids? When or whenever? Whereas,

37:03

like, it shows you how the magicians

37:05

do their, like, big elaborate tricks. And

37:07

then you learn, and you're like, oh,

37:09

that's really disappointing every time. When the

37:12

magician picks up the hat, he also

37:14

picks up the rabbit and puts it

37:16

inside. Take another look in slow motion.

37:18

The hat goes up, and in goes

37:21

the rabbit. During my research, I came

37:23

across a whole stack of fresh online

37:25

investigations, many of them from 2024, which

37:27

still seemed convinced that the story had

37:29

no real conclusion and was probably just

37:32

a myth originally plucked from the pestilent

37:34

pages of paranormal prattle. And that's very

37:36

odd, or perhaps just very lazy, because

37:38

this case was quite exhaustively solved. Between

37:40

2017 and 2021, thanks to the quite

37:43

incredible work of a group of researchers

37:45

and internet detectives who managed to put

37:47

just about all of the pieces together,

37:49

holy shit, okay? The Honourable List of

37:52

Cyber Sleets include Reditors, Nathaniel, and... to

37:54

Nioli, Tariochi Naukari, along with writer Julia

37:56

Lewis, who put together a comprehensive piece

37:58

for the 14 times in 2021. Between

38:00

them, this group of digital diggers managed

38:03

to uncover a wealth of contemporary Japanese

38:05

newspaper reports and radio broadcasts which confirmed

38:07

that much of the story is completely

38:09

true. There was indeed a man. So

38:12

why didn't the original guy wrote about

38:14

it share his sources? If that's then,

38:16

because he came up with a... previously

38:18

you could say, oh, he came up

38:20

with a name. But then he didn't.

38:23

It was real. Why not say where

38:25

he got the name from? It would

38:27

add a whole lot of legitimacy. There

38:29

was indeed a man who arrived in

38:32

Heneida Airport in Tokyo in the 1950s

38:34

under the name of John Zegris with

38:36

connections to a country that did not

38:38

exist. It's just that some of the

38:40

details got a little distorted along the

38:43

way and not in a manner that

38:45

you'd typically expect. In fact, the seeds

38:47

of the confusion were somewhat surprisingly sewn

38:49

about 6,000 miles or about 6,000 miles

38:51

or well. What? But before we drop

38:54

in on the UK debate that accidentally

38:56

changed the flight path of the story,

38:58

let's look at what really happened when

39:00

the man from nowhere touched down in

39:03

Tokyo. Wait, what's London enough to do

39:05

with any of this? John Zegris didn't

39:07

look like the top type of bloke

39:09

who would have expected any trouble in

39:11

getting past the immigration cue. John Alan

39:14

Kucha Zegris was a smartly dressed and

39:16

well-traveled Caucasian Caucasian Caucasian gentleman rocking. expensive

39:18

suit and a slightly gray beard. And

39:20

yes, I bet he owned a trouser

39:23

press, but there are several deviations right

39:25

at the beginning of this true journey.

39:27

For starters, he landed at Hanada Airport

39:29

a few years later than we originally

39:31

thought. In October 1959, he was 36

39:34

rather than 25, and he wasn't traveling

39:36

alone. He was accompanied by his unnamed

39:38

30-year-old common-law wife from South Korea, and

39:40

he was established that they had traveled

39:43

from Taipei. in Taiwan. But the biggest

39:45

deviation from the most widely shared story

39:47

is that despite Zegres having a somewhat

39:49

dubious passport, he managed to breeze their

39:51

immigration with no problem at all and

39:54

spent the next three months enjoying life

39:56

in Tokyo. with his partner until he

39:58

was arrested by Tokyo Metropolitan Police on

40:00

suspicion of attempted bank fraud. Zegris had

40:02

been caught attempting to cash checks totaling

40:05

$300,000 at the Tokyo branch of Chase

40:07

Manhattan Bank and another $140 traveler's check

40:09

at a branch of the Bank of

40:11

Korea, adding up to a very rough

40:14

estimated total somewhere in the region of

40:16

$10,000 in today's money. The problem for

40:18

Zegris was that in sharp contrast the

40:20

personnel at Anita Airport, the staff at

40:22

both banks had gone to the trouble

40:25

of taking a good look at the

40:27

passport that Zegris was using as proof

40:29

of identity. Yeah, because these guys have

40:31

something to lose. Whereas the airport guys

40:34

are just like, welcome to Japan. Whereas

40:36

we were originally led to believe that

40:38

the passport looked impressively authentic, it actually

40:40

looked like it was knocked up as

40:42

part of a school project by kids

40:45

who'd never seen one in real life.

40:47

It came plastered with messily forged stamps

40:49

which were supposed to represent Japanese embassies,

40:51

and it was covered in strange text

40:54

that resembled something you might find engraved

40:56

on the walls of ancient temples, but

40:58

was later dismissed by linguistic specialists as

41:00

an entirely made up language. It was

41:02

widely reported that the passport was instantly

41:05

recognizable as fake on very first glance.

41:07

One Japanese newspaper even reported that it

41:09

was the size of a weekly magazine.

41:11

Maybe passports were bigger in the past

41:14

though. Actually I don't think so. I've

41:16

seen like pictures of all passports and

41:18

stuff and you see like all passports

41:20

in museums and stuff. They were always

41:22

kind of the same size. Just every...

41:25

all countries have exactly the same size

41:27

passport. Did we all agree on like

41:29

just making them, what it must be

41:31

like, A6? Maybe? Oh that's not going

41:33

to mean anything to Americans, like a

41:36

quarter of the size of this. Right?

41:38

Yeah, look. There we go. That's about

41:40

the size of a passport. For audio

41:42

listeners, maybe a little. No, that's about

41:45

the right size, I think. That's about

41:47

the right size. Probably is A6. A4

41:49

is like, I think you call it

41:51

a legal size, like a legal letter,

41:53

like the standard size of paper that

41:56

your printer will use. And then we

41:58

come to his... job title and the

42:00

name of the country that he was

42:02

supposed to represent. No, it wasn't

42:04

Torred. Zegris reckoned that he was a

42:06

roving ambassador for a country by the

42:08

name of Nagusi Habasi, which does serve

42:10

some similarities with Torred, in that it

42:12

doesn't exist either. And all of this,

42:14

or returns us to the question of

42:16

why anyone would go to the trouble

42:18

of forging a passport containing an invented

42:20

country in an invented language, Maybe Zegris

42:23

was hoping that the bank teller would

42:25

just shrug and assume that he was

42:27

dealing with a particularly exotic foreigner from

42:29

a deeply obscure part of the world,

42:31

a place where passports were the size

42:33

of weekly magazines. The investigation was handed

42:35

over to a guy called At Sayuki Sasa,

42:37

who would eventually go on to become

42:39

the first director general of the Cabinet

42:41

Security Affairs office in Japan in the

42:43

1980s, but back in 1960 when John

42:45

Zegris was arrested, Sassa was working for

42:47

Foreign Affairs division of the Public Security

42:49

Bureau within the Metropolitan Police Police department.

42:52

and in what proved to be another

42:54

recent big boost into coding the unknown,

42:56

Atsuyuki Sasser published his memoirs in 2016

42:58

entitled, The Spies He Pass Me By.

43:00

That's a great title for a book,

43:02

written by someone who does this. Whilst

43:04

the book is only available in the

43:06

Japanese language, not likely to be found

43:08

in any library outside the land of

43:10

the Rising Sun, the army of keyboard

43:12

gumshes were on the case again when

43:14

it came to sourcing an English translation

43:16

of the chapter, dealing with the conversations

43:19

between Atsuuki Sasser and John Zegris. I

43:21

wonder if you could just ask chat

43:23

GPT what's in the book nowadays. Do

43:25

you think it's absorbed that? And this,

43:27

along with all those translated Japanese press

43:29

reports and news broadcasts, has played an

43:31

instrumental part in helping to unravel the

43:33

whole puzzle. Zegris, who apparently really was

43:35

fluent in 14 languages, not even that! 13!

43:37

Holy shit! It certainly had a lot say for

43:39

himself, and he appeared to have led a pretty

43:41

eventful life. He never claimed to have been born

43:43

in the Gucy habezi. In fact, he reckoned he

43:46

was born in the US before moving through Europe

43:48

and ending up serving as a fighter pilot. For

43:50

the Royal Air Force, during the Second World War,

43:52

although shot down aliens, but most of the war

43:54

in a German POW camp. After the war, he

43:56

moved to South America and was later recruited to

43:59

work as an American... buying Korea. He was

44:01

soon taken to the skies again as

44:03

a pilot in Vietnam before eventually signing

44:05

up with the United Arab Republic to

44:07

carry out secret missions on behalf of

44:09

the mysterious nation of Nagusi Habi. Somewhere

44:12

in all their mix, he also managed

44:14

to find the time to work for

44:16

the FBI and the CIA with whom

44:18

he still held strong connections. I mean,

44:20

it does kind of sound like both, doesn't

44:23

it? It's like, what's that subreddit where

44:25

it's like, yeah, that really happens or

44:27

whatever. And then everybody clapped Although it's

44:29

not mentioned in the book by Atsuioki

44:31

Sasa, I'd like to think that John

44:34

Zegris was also a highly acclaimed school

44:36

milk monitor and recipient of the Buttsville

44:38

Paper Boy of the Year trophy, over

44:40

three consecutive campaigns, he seemed quite annoyed

44:42

about this turn of events in Tokyo.

44:44

He claimed that the reason for his

44:47

visit was to carry out a top-secret

44:49

mission recruiting new Japanese volunteers for the

44:51

great Arab coalition and that his arrest

44:53

was a violation. of diplomatic privileges,

44:55

brah, your passport's the size of

44:57

a magazine, you don't have any

44:59

diplomatic privileges, it's all made up.

45:01

In a scene that mirrored the

45:03

earlier version of the story, Zegris

45:05

was indeed invited to point out

45:07

the location of the Guggusia Bayse

45:09

on a world map, but the

45:11

outcome wasn't quite so dramatic. He

45:13

just kind of vaguely pointed south

45:15

of Ethiopia and didn't make too

45:17

much of a fuss that Nugusia

45:19

Bayse wasn't there, and probably turn the

45:21

conversation. Of course, just about every detail

45:24

of his story appeared to be complete

45:26

bologues, at least in 40 different languages.

45:28

While Sasser and his colleagues at the

45:30

Foreign Affairs Division did their best to

45:32

follow up on every tiny detail, it

45:34

was blindingly obvious that the whole life

45:36

story of John Zegris was a weekly

45:38

magazine-sized tissue of lies, and sadly the

45:40

kingdom of Nagusia Basi never returned the

45:42

phone calls. Oh no, what a surprise!

45:44

His common law was deported wife was

45:46

deported back to South Korea, but was

45:48

a common law. What is a common

45:50

law. What is a common law. What is a

45:52

common law. Why is it common law wife? Is that

45:54

like your wife but just by default?

45:56

How does that even work? While Segris

45:58

faced trial at Tokyo... a strict course

46:00

on charges related to attempted bank fraud,

46:02

identity fraud, and illegal entry into the

46:04

country. Although he was found guilty, the

46:06

original sentencing was interrupted when Zegris suddenly

46:08

produced a glass shard that had somehow

46:11

spoggled into the courtroom, declared that he

46:13

was going to kill himself, and began

46:15

slashing his own arms. It sounded like

46:17

an attempt to stool proceedings, rather than

46:19

to take his own life and following

46:21

a trip to hospital, he was eventually

46:23

sentenced to a year in prison. During

46:25

his stay, he kept busy by attempting

46:27

to file a civil lawsuit against the

46:29

superintendent, general, seeking a million dollars for

46:31

alleged embezzlement, but that quietly fizzled out.

46:33

Yeah, dude, you're the one in prison

46:36

who's in prison for fraud. Not this

46:38

dude. After he was released... Several Japanese

46:40

newspapers reported that he was deported to

46:42

Hong Kong, as this was apparently the

46:44

last place he was known to legally

46:46

enter. This is a little surprising, as

46:48

his real name and nationality were never

46:50

identified. Some of the newspapers had even

46:52

dropped the name John Zegris from their

46:54

reports of the court case, preferring to

46:56

label the defendant as a mysterious foreigner

46:58

of unknown nationality and background. Whilst he claimed

47:01

to have been born in the US, he claimed

47:03

a lot of things that were proven to be

47:05

false. Hey, America, it's Japan. We're sending

47:07

this dude home. America just be like, bro,

47:09

he ain't ours. We're not taking him.

47:11

He's not ours. And this is a

47:13

little weird, as deportation usually requires a

47:15

verified nationality before it can legally go

47:17

ahead. We can only assume that Hong

47:20

Kong was happy to cut through the

47:22

red tape and help out Japan with

47:24

this one. Perhaps they were just keen

47:26

to recruit John Zegris to the Royal

47:28

Hong Kong police force special branch, or

47:30

I don't know, maybe you be a

47:32

fighter pilot, a super-pilot, a super spy. I

47:34

mean, he worked for the CIA and FBI.

47:36

And of course, all of this does leave

47:38

us with something of a mystery. We never

47:41

discovered the real name and nationality of John

47:43

Zegris. We never found out his real backstory.

47:45

And we never found out what he did

47:48

next. What we do know is that the

47:50

true account of his time in Tokyo contains

47:52

no hint of him being an interdimensional traveler

47:54

or traveler at all, and is a much

47:57

simpler tale of a slightly rubbish fraudster and

47:59

yarn spinner. So, how on earth did

48:01

we get from a clumsy

48:03

criminal who claimed to be

48:06

working for a nugucy, habacy

48:08

to a man from Torred

48:10

who vanished without a trace

48:12

from a locked hotel room

48:14

and returned to his own

48:16

version of reality? Well

48:18

I blame the bloody

48:21

British government for this one. Oh

48:23

yeah, we got to get back to London,

48:25

what's going on? had a bee in his

48:27

bonnet about passports which he felt were not

48:29

particularly effective security checks. He's kind of right

48:32

though, isn't he? During a debate in the

48:34

House of Commons, he brought up the very

48:36

recent case of John Zegris to help illustrate

48:38

the point that passports are about as useful

48:41

as a leaky bucket in the desert. But

48:43

his long rambling speech included some deeply

48:45

puzzling references which appeared to have been

48:47

plucked from nowhere. He declared that Zegris

48:50

had claimed to be a naturalized Ethiopian,

48:52

which is not currently documented, and may

48:54

well have been inspired by the fact

48:56

that he once briefly pointed to south

48:59

of EPO Ethiopia on a world map. Raw

49:01

Matthews also reckoned that Zegris had been

49:03

traveling around the world and Passport looked

49:05

incredibly authentic, aside from the bits that

49:08

were written in a fictional language, which

49:10

is not true at all, as the

49:12

Passport was easily identified as a fake

49:14

by anyone who actually bothered to have

49:16

been issued in the fictional city. of

49:19

Taman Rossit, which is the capital city

49:21

of a fictional state of Torid. It's

49:23

not quite Torred, but we're certainly getting

49:25

there. Now, this is wrong on several

49:27

counts, not just because the fake passport

49:29

stated no such thing, but also because

49:32

Taman Rossit appears to be a mispronunciation

49:34

of Taman Rossit, which is not a

49:36

fictional city, but a very real province

49:39

in the southern region of Algeria. As

49:41

for Torid, this might not be the

49:43

name of a place, but it does

49:46

appear to be a mispronunciation of Torreg.

49:48

which is the name of a nomadic

49:50

society who you're quite likely to find

49:53

mooching around Tam and Rissit. Isn't it

49:55

also the name of a VW tour

49:57

egg? Is that the big four by four?

50:00

Is that what it's called? I think

50:02

it's the most popular SUV in

50:04

Europe. The V.W. Towerick. I could be

50:06

completely wrong on that, but it does

50:08

feel like the name of a V.W.

50:11

So now we have to ask ourselves

50:13

what exactly Robert Matthews was pissing about

50:15

out here. I mean, maybe he was

50:17

from an alternate dimension. Why not? I

50:20

mean, it's not like a conservative MP

50:22

to just stand up until a load

50:24

of place and forkeys in the House

50:26

of the House of Commons. We can't

50:28

say for sure why his speech was

50:31

littered with so many inaccuracies. He was

50:33

probably just getting his information from translated

50:35

Japanese news broadcasts. And perhaps he

50:37

just happened to be tuning into

50:39

a broadcast which got a lot

50:41

of stuff garbled in translation, although

50:43

no evidence exists of such a

50:46

broadcast today. Yeah, but it was

50:48

the past. That is a lot

50:50

of stuff that we just don't

50:52

have record of. Perhaps one of

50:54

his aides was having an off-day

50:56

and couldn't quite remember all of

50:58

the details, so they just pulled

51:00

out some words from an encyclopedia

51:02

that appeared to be vaguely connected.

51:04

Just a couple of weeks later, the

51:06

Canadian newspaper The Province used the speech

51:08

as basis for their report entitled Man

51:10

with his own country, which marveled at

51:12

the sheer audacity of a man who

51:14

had been traveling around the world on

51:16

a masterfully created fake passport and praised

51:18

the people of Japan for being the

51:21

first to consider actually looking at it

51:23

whilst reaching out for a map. His

51:25

article also goes to the trouble of

51:27

correcting the British MPs' mispronunciation of Tam

51:29

and Rassid, although the province doesn't seem

51:31

to be aware that it's a real

51:33

location, as they also consider it to

51:35

be the capital of the fictional turret.

51:37

The case continued to pop up regularly

51:39

throughout the 60s and 70s, particularly in

51:41

books by the French writer, chemical engineer,

51:43

and spy, Jacques Bursier, who had a bit of

51:46

a reputation for concocting popular myths. We've

51:48

come across his name in one of the

51:50

previous DTO episodes on Project Rice. Bursier was

51:52

the author of a strange book called Morning

51:54

of the Magicians, in which he runs through

51:57

a load of ridiculous conspiracy theories as if

51:59

they were real... Still, like I say, if

52:01

you can't get your fiction published, just

52:03

label it as fact. The point in

52:05

the introduction that the whole book is

52:07

meant to be a test of the

52:09

reader's cognitive and critical thinking skills. Well,

52:11

a reader with cognitive and critical thinking

52:13

skills would not have bought the book

52:15

in the first place. And it was

52:17

in that book that we saw the

52:19

first published reference to Die Glarka Project,

52:22

which was supposedly an anti-gravity machine, hidden

52:24

away in Project Rice in Project Rice

52:26

in The Owl Mountains, a life of

52:28

its own. after the publication of the

52:30

book. We can hardly hold Jacques Bergenet

52:32

responsible for concocting the false version of

52:34

the story of John Zegris, but he

52:36

did add a few elements of his

52:38

own throughout his various printed musings on

52:40

the case. For some reason, he decides

52:42

to change the year from 1959 to

52:44

1954, and he largely cuts out the

52:46

airport sequences as he paints a picture

52:48

of a man who had been living

52:50

in Japan for some time before suspicious

52:52

government officials arrived at his hotel room

52:54

to check his passport. This is the

52:56

first time we're introduced. We're introduced. to

52:59

the element of a hotel room in

53:01

the story, although according to Berje, John

53:03

Zegris didn't just disappear into thin air

53:05

whilst locked in the room. He was

53:07

instead shut up in a Japanese psychiatric

53:09

hospital for the rest of his life.

53:11

Sounds like that's more where he belongs.

53:13

It's not clear why Jack Berje felt

53:15

compelled to add these new details, but

53:17

he might just have been having another

53:19

go at testing the cognitive and critical

53:21

thinking skills. It's not an excuse. It's

53:23

not an excuse. Just testing! Every time

53:25

I make a mispronunciation, just testing! And

53:27

this more or less brings us back

53:29

to the point that we reached a

53:31

while ago with the 1981 publication of

53:33

the Directory of Possibilities, which in just

53:35

a single sentence introduces us to the

53:38

place of Torred, a name which stuck

53:40

for quite some time. We were still

53:42

referring to the Fictional Land of Torred

53:44

by the time we got to the

53:46

2012 article on before its news website

53:48

written by Taren's aim, which also includes

53:50

all the stuff. about the connection with

53:52

the principality of Andorra and the cunning

53:54

escape from the locked hotel room. I

53:56

don't think so. was responsible for making

53:58

all of that up, though. I suspect

54:00

he was compiling a bunch of rumors

54:02

and speculation and outright fabrications that have

54:04

popped up online in the preceding years,

54:06

and he mashed them up with slightly

54:08

more sensible of occasionally inaccurate material from

54:10

the 1960s onwards. There's still something quite

54:12

odd, and maybe not entirely honest about

54:15

his sources, as whilst he claimed to

54:17

have pulled the story together from several

54:19

books about the weird and strange published

54:21

during the 1950s. Oh, we now know

54:23

that John Zegris wasn't even arrested. until

54:25

1960. But on the whole, the fictional

54:27

version of the mystery man from Torred

54:29

appears to have evolved from the combination

54:31

of a clueless British MP talking out

54:33

of his ass, careless clerical errors, clumsy

54:35

fact-checking, the usual embellishments tacked on in

54:37

print and online, and perhaps most importantly

54:39

of all, a language barrier. As so

54:41

much of the reliable contemporary text requires

54:43

a good grasp of the Japanese language,

54:45

it was perhaps inevitable that the off-beam

54:47

English versions of the case were always

54:49

going to get more exposure than the

54:52

original. Accurate Japanese sources, yeah, because they're

54:54

more interesting, aren't they? That's the problem.

54:56

Truth is usually boring. And whilst it

54:58

might seem a bit of a shame

55:00

that John Zegris wasn't quite an interdimensional

55:02

traveler after all, it's still fascinated to

55:04

come across a story that was widely

55:06

dismissed for years by kill joy skeptics

55:08

as a totally fabricated myth, yet turned

55:10

out to be based on an entirely

55:12

genuine case. If only we knew more

55:14

about the life of the real John

55:16

Zegris or whatever his name was and

55:18

what happened to him after he got

55:20

deported after he got deported after he

55:22

got deported, It would have been nice

55:24

if it dropped us all a postcard

55:26

at some point to let us know

55:28

I was getting on. Mind you, I'm

55:31

not sure if ever received it. The

55:33

postal service in Torred has always been

55:35

notoriously unreliable. Some say it's worse than

55:37

the postal service in Prague. I like

55:39

that joke, Danny. My sargas with the

55:41

postal service. Anyway, that's the end of

55:43

today's episode. Thank you so much for

55:45

being here. And I'll see you in

55:47

the next one.