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Terms and Conditions Dear old work platform.

1:13

It's not you. It's us. Actually,

1:16

it is you. Endless onboarding? Constant

1:18

IT bottlenecks? We've had enough. We

1:20

need a platform that just gets

1:23

us. And to be honest, we've

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met someone new. They're called monday.com.

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and it was love at first

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onboarding. They're beautiful dashboards, they're customizable

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workflows, got us floating on a

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digital cloud nine, so no hard

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feelings, but we're moving on. monday.com,

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the first work platform you'll apply. love

1:41

to use. Hello,

1:44

everyone, and welcome to Decoding TV, a

1:46

podcast about television. I'm David Chen.

1:48

Joining me as usual, he's

1:50

Patrick Klavik. Patrick Are you

1:52

ready to discuss one of the most

1:54

buzzed about television episodes of recent

1:56

memory? I'm just glad. I'm

1:59

just glad we're past this. I feel like

2:01

I've been carrying a weight for years. I'm

2:03

just so glad we're past it. When

2:06

you go on

2:08

max .com to

2:11

play The Last of Us, it says,

2:13

did that just happen? Stream

2:15

the heart pounding episode that has

2:17

everyone talking. End quote. without,

2:21

you know, we're not into talking with you.

2:23

We're not in the spoilers yet. But just

2:25

I told my wife as we

2:27

were opening the episode, I was like,

2:29

I don't know how this could go.

2:31

I haven't seen anything like the preview

2:34

coming up on The Last

2:36

of Us. But they played a

2:38

montage of like, do you remember

2:40

where you were when this happened

2:42

from like. Different HBO

2:44

shows. -huh. That was a

2:46

pre -roll like trailer and I was like,

2:48

hey, I know you think you've poured

2:50

enough wine I don't think you have

2:52

and like I think you should bring

2:54

the glass over here Mm -hmm. Well,

2:56

we'll be discussing again the episode that

2:58

has everyone talking right here on decoding

3:00

TV We got a little bit of

3:03

TV news to discuss We're gonna talk

3:05

about the last of us season 2 episode

3:07

2 and then we are going

3:09

to dive into the rehearsal season

3:11

2 episode 1 which

3:13

just premiered a pretty interesting

3:15

episode, and we're going to be covering

3:17

that show week to week as well.

3:19

But first, Patrick Lepic, before

3:22

we get into any of that, I want

3:24

to share some stuff that we've been

3:26

watching recently on our own. I

3:29

mean, Patrick has been done with the

3:31

pit for a little bit now. And

3:33

I was way behind Patrick. I cannot

3:35

believe you chose. I had only

3:38

watched the first two episodes that we

3:40

discussed. But everyone's been talking about

3:42

the pit. Everyone

3:44

seems to love the pit. You love the pit.

3:47

Love the pit. And so we

3:49

wanted to we're going to put together a bonus

3:51

episode later this week about the pit for

3:53

decoding TV subscribers. But

3:55

I

3:57

wanted to catch up. And

4:00

the only way to do that in a

4:02

short enough time frame was to really

4:04

mainline this show. So I watched 11 episodes

4:06

of The Payette in the last 36

4:08

hours. That's so... Let

4:10

me just tell you... When

4:12

you texted me that you

4:14

did that, I think my

4:16

emoji response was like a vomit emoji.

4:18

Like, I don't think you should do

4:20

that. Let me just tell you, that was not

4:23

the ideal way to experience the show. And

4:26

I do not recommend it. That said, this

4:28

is what I do for you listeners, is

4:31

I experience the unexperienceable.

4:34

Also, you can have some

4:36

high quality hangout time talking with

4:38

me and Patrick talking about another

4:40

podcast. So, you should expect the

4:42

pit bonus episode coming up soon.

4:45

Patrick Klepek, you've also finished recently

4:47

Daredevil Born Again. Now, this is

4:49

another show I've been behind on.

4:51

However, Open question of whether

4:53

I should catch up and now I have a

4:55

little more free time to do so, but I'm

4:57

curious Daredevil born again

4:59

worth the journey and also and we

5:01

also mentioned like a lot when we

5:03

talked about it Is the second half

5:06

of the show gonna feel different than the first

5:08

half because they completely retooled the series So those are

5:10

my big questions is number one was

5:12

it overall a good season and number two

5:14

did the second half feel markedly different

5:16

than the first half I

5:18

don't think you can cleanly break it up,

5:21

and I don't think this the

5:23

season feels like if you understand

5:25

the production history you can tell

5:27

You can see some of the seams throughout

5:29

the season, but it doesn't feel as Clean

5:31

a break where it's like oh right

5:33

like this is when the season actually begins

5:35

sort of thing, but it is a

5:37

hodgepodge It is sort of a stitch together

5:39

sort of production Where it's

5:41

worth remembering that this show was

5:43

announced originally as an 18 episode

5:45

season like that dear devil born

5:47

again was going to be 18

5:50

continuous maybe breaks but like it

5:52

was a single one -shot season

5:54

and where we get by the

5:56

end of born again feels like

5:58

Everyone involved going like

6:00

whoo really dodged a bullet not doing

6:02

it the other way We finally have

6:04

our like the pieces in place to

6:06

make the show that we want to

6:08

make. And there's some good moments along

6:10

the way. I think it's a solid but

6:12

not spectacular season of television. But

6:14

I think where it leaves the characters,

6:16

where it leaves the tone, where

6:18

it leaves the punisher in particular, and

6:20

David, many questions we had about like,

6:23

would it, where would it choose

6:25

to engage with the questions it was

6:27

bringing up about the punisher, police, ACAB,

6:30

would it go there? it goes

6:32

there and sets up some

6:35

really, really fascinating places for

6:37

many of these really important

6:39

characters in season two

6:41

or the second half of season

6:43

one, how everyone would characterize it. I

6:45

don't think it's a particularly fulfilling

6:47

season of television. That part feels broken

6:49

up, but it feels like a

6:52

necessary fracturing on Marvel from a

6:54

production side to get the show

6:56

into a place where it's more

6:58

healthy, has a more coherent direction,

7:00

and I'm very excited about

7:02

where it goes from here. And

7:04

so my thought would be, I'm

7:06

not sitting here going, I think David needs to

7:08

sit down and watch the season of television immediately. No,

7:11

it's good. I

7:13

think it's worth watching. It's probably worth

7:15

catching up on once season

7:17

two is around the corner. It's

7:19

one of those. The pit

7:21

is can't miss. Please go watch

7:23

it. Absolutely. You should indulge with

7:26

it as soon as you can. Daredevil

7:28

born again is a little bit more make sure

7:30

like you're there with the pieces by the

7:32

time we get to season two I enjoyed my

7:34

time with it, but I don't know that

7:36

it is appointment viewing until we get closer to

7:38

the next chapter All right.

7:40

Well, well said Patrick Lepic Those are

7:42

some thoughts on daredevil born against for

7:44

a season and also Patrick and I

7:46

will be having a conversation about the

7:48

pit if you want to get that

7:50

in podcast form become a paid

7:52

subscriber at DecodingTV.com. We really appreciate everyone

7:54

who's a paid subscriber. Also, by the

7:56

way, become a free subscriber because right

7:58

now we have written coverage last of

8:00

a season two and we will also be

8:03

having, I'm really excited about written

8:05

coverage for and or season two as

8:07

well. So yeah,

8:09

be sure to stay tuned for

8:11

all of that. Uh, and

8:13

and you can get that is that those

8:15

are free for everyone right now So become

8:17

a free subscriber decoding tv.com and then consider

8:19

becoming a paid subscriber to get ad -free episodes

8:21

as well as our bonus episodes here on

8:23

decoding tv Okay, uh

8:25

That is our thoughts

8:27

on Daredevil born again. Uh, let's talk

8:30

about a few items of television

8:32

news Pacific Rim series lands at amazon.

8:34

This is really interesting. Patrick lepik

8:37

Legendary's Pacific Rim series is landed at

8:39

Amazon MGM Studios. These two

8:41

studios will adapt the IP together for

8:43

Amazon's Prime Video Streaming Service. This

8:45

Pacific Rim TV project currently in

8:47

development is the first from Legendary's

8:49

first -look television deal with Eric

8:51

Heiser and his chronology banner. Heiser

8:54

will write and executive produce the

8:56

series, end quote. Now,

8:59

Patrick Clubby, I don't know if

9:01

you're familiar with Eric Heiser, but

9:03

he wrote... Villeneuve's Arrival

9:05

script. He

9:07

also wrote the Netflix

9:09

thriller Bird Box

9:11

starring Sandra Bullock. And

9:15

I have to say my feelings

9:17

on those two things are

9:19

extremely opposed to each other. I

9:21

thought what's actually super fascinating

9:23

about Arrival is if you read the

9:25

Ted Chang short story that it's

9:27

based on, it's very, very different

9:29

than the Arrival. So the fact

9:31

like he put a lot of

9:33

work and ingenuity into making that

9:35

into a movie that would be,

9:38

that was like honored the ideas it was

9:40

based off of, but was also just kind of its

9:42

own thing. And then

9:44

at the same time Bird Box

9:46

I thought was not a very good

9:48

movie. So I'm really curious how

9:50

this is going to play out. The

9:53

other thing that I'm a little

9:55

bit raising my eye at is

9:57

I think one of the huge

10:00

things about Pacific Rim that made

10:02

it worth watching was how

10:04

good it looked. And of course,

10:06

that's related to Guillermo del

10:08

Toro's excellent direction, did not like

10:10

Pacific Rim uprising. I

10:12

think a big part of it was, I

10:14

don't think the CG looked as good, even though

10:16

it happened, you know, the movie was released years

10:18

later. There was a

10:21

weight to the large machines that

10:23

was missing, a feel, a

10:25

weight. It felt more like

10:27

the Godzilla X Kong school filmmaking where

10:29

you have these like enormous creatures that

10:31

are just prancing around like, you know,

10:33

tiny humans, you know, like these things

10:35

are supposed to be huge and difficult

10:37

to move. And I felt like the

10:39

original Pacific Rim honored that and Pacific

10:42

Rim uprising didn't. What has been your

10:44

experience of the Pacific Rim series, Patrick

10:46

Lepic? It's funny because like

10:48

nothing associated with Pacific Rim has been

10:50

remotely successful. And yeah, like it's a

10:52

franchise. Other than the first film. The

10:54

first film I thought it was modestly.

10:56

It was a decent success at the

10:58

box office. But nothing that was like,

11:00

you know, we need to do. Right.

11:02

We got to make a lot of

11:04

Pacific Rim. Like it was not it

11:06

was it was not that kind of

11:08

thing. And an uprising didn't do didn't

11:10

do well at all. And so I

11:12

I like the first one well enough.

11:14

I don't think it's like it. fun

11:16

to watch Del Toro smash like his

11:18

toys together. It's certainly not a

11:21

personal favorite of mine of his, even

11:23

though I like kaiju monsters, giant mechs

11:25

are funny. There's just a lack of

11:27

depth to that film that I usually

11:29

find in a lot of his work.

11:31

And that one just seems sort of

11:33

like a more fun one off with

11:35

some really incredible visuals. And there's nothing

11:37

wrong with that, which is which is

11:39

what gets me to if Del Toro

11:41

is not here. What

11:43

like what am I like? What

11:45

am I what am I here

11:47

for? Plus putting this on a

11:49

streaming service in an era of

11:51

like budget constraining like you can't

11:53

do Pacific Rim. The whole pitch

11:55

is giant expensive monster. Like it's

11:57

all it's so much like computer

11:59

effects. And so I just don't

12:01

really I don't really get it.

12:03

I don't see the appeal. I

12:05

don't see how they pull it

12:07

off in a meaningful way without

12:09

a blank check. And so I'm

12:12

left kind of eh. on the

12:14

whole endeavor. So

12:16

I think those are

12:19

great points. I think you

12:21

are dramatically underselling how good Pacific Rim 1 is. I'm

12:23

just going to put that out there. OK. That's

12:25

fine. It's pretty great.

12:27

You know, the drift compatibility thing

12:29

and Charlie Hunnam's character and his

12:32

relationship. Anyway. I think there's a

12:34

lot of great things. The score

12:36

is incredible. Today, we are canceling

12:38

the apocalypse. Anyway,

12:40

a lot of great things to love about

12:42

Pacific Rim 1, but I agree with all

12:44

of your concerns about the potential for a

12:47

TV series. That said, we'll see how Amazon

12:49

handles it in the future. Here's

12:52

another pretty news. This

12:54

is from Variety. Sinner's director, Ryan

12:56

Coogler, teases X -Files series reboot

12:58

and confirms he's spoken with the

13:00

original star, Jillian Anderson. Now

13:03

Patrick Lepic, I believe you have watched

13:05

Sinners. What did you

13:07

think of Ryan Coogler Sinners? If

13:10

I don't see a better

13:12

movie this year, I'll be

13:14

to perfectly content. What a

13:16

fucking triumph. You

13:20

know, the, like, Don Draper, like,

13:22

smoking, looking at the TV screen,

13:24

like, oh, I just witnessed cinema.

13:26

Martin Scorsese meme, this is, or

13:28

this is cinema, you know, Bong

13:30

Joon -ho meme, this is cinema.

13:33

This used to be a country

13:35

that built things, and... During

13:37

COVID, the only real IMAX in

13:39

the Chicagoland area went under at Navy

13:41

Pier down by in Deepa downtown

13:43

Chicago. And there's nothing. There's not a

13:45

it's all it's all IMAX is

13:47

on down out in the entire state

13:49

of Illinois. The closest one is

13:51

in Indianapolis. And had I known the

13:53

reaction I was going to have

13:56

to that film, I might have

13:58

I might have found a way to

14:00

get to Indianapolis to watch that movie

14:02

as I think it was intended. I

14:05

think Coogler is

14:07

rapidly becoming a

14:10

Christopher Nolan -esque, Quentin

14:12

Tarantino -esque figure in the industry

14:14

in the sense that his

14:17

name alone will soon be sufficient

14:19

to sell movies. Like, Sinner

14:21

has had one of the best

14:23

openings for an original film,

14:25

I think the best opening for

14:27

an original film in the

14:29

last decade. It's an incredible

14:31

accomplishment and it shows that yeah

14:33

people He has Appeal as a

14:36

director beyond the one billion dollars

14:38

he made directing Black Panther Like

14:40

people are turning out to see

14:42

Creed and now he's writing. This

14:44

is an original thing and people

14:46

are turning out for it as

14:49

well. It's very exciting to see.

14:51

And it shows, I think, that

14:53

this guy is going to be

14:55

able to do basically whatever he

14:57

wants next, which apparently is an

14:59

ex file series. Well,

15:03

look, there is a Jordan Peele and

15:05

my cool are very different artists,

15:07

but they both are mired in genre.

15:09

And so I don't think it's

15:11

a surprise that like when Jordan Peele's

15:13

film career took off, like one

15:15

of the first things he did was

15:17

like, I'm going to reboot the

15:19

Twilight Zone. I don't think

15:21

that went really all that well. Anthology

15:23

is hard. Anthology is different. But

15:26

I'm not shocked that Kugler,

15:28

who is also a genre appreciator,

15:30

you know, is is interested in trying

15:32

something like the X files, which

15:35

itself is a

15:37

genre show, but also one that if you

15:39

watch that run of X -Files, X -Files could

15:41

be anything. It could be deeply comedic. It

15:43

could be deeply dramatic. It could be hard

15:45

sci -fi. X -Files was a

15:47

blank canvas to kind of just

15:49

tell stories in many ways. Yeah,

15:51

yeah. During a recent

15:53

interview with Last Podcast on the left,

15:55

Cougler said, quote, I've been excited about it

15:57

for a long time, and I'm fired

16:00

up to get back to it. Some

16:02

of these episodes, if we do our jobs

16:04

right, will be really fucking scary, end quote. So

16:07

I have to say

16:09

that it's kind of exciting

16:11

because Sinner's being, I

16:13

think his first horror movie, right?

16:15

And it was very scary. Like

16:17

there was some really terrifying elements

16:19

to it. So the idea of

16:21

him doing an X -Files reboot

16:24

and potentially even involving Jillian Anderson

16:26

in it, I think is really...

16:28

gonna be like an event, you

16:30

know, like all signs point to

16:32

this being a big event That's

16:34

gonna bring in the old guard

16:36

who loved the x -files originally and

16:38

who like Patrick Klepek watched all

16:40

the terrible new remakes and and

16:42

also a Brand new audience of

16:45

Ryan Coogler fans. I think

16:47

x -files fans are gonna be eating well very

16:49

very soon So and I have to imagine

16:51

that after the opening of sinners Ryan

16:53

Cougar is going to get whatever he

16:55

needs to make this happen. So I've

16:57

never felt more like the X -Files

16:59

reboot is actually going to happen than

17:01

at this moment right now. Yes,

17:03

I agree. I still have many, many

17:06

concerns on how you do. I

17:08

think the last time we talked about, we

17:10

discussed Cougler and revisiting the X

17:12

-Files. There's just in an age

17:14

of conspiracy, how do you do

17:16

a conspiracy show? Much

17:19

of the X -Files is the chemistry

17:21

of its two leads. Um, that said,

17:23

if you look, you know, and if

17:25

you look at sinners, it's an it's

17:27

an ensemble cast with incredible chemistry. And

17:29

so if what one of your concerns

17:31

is, can Cougler identify like two actors

17:33

that can bounce off one another? I

17:35

mean, they had a whole goddamn movie

17:37

where everyone bounced off each other, like

17:39

just fine. And so, um, that's been

17:41

a hallmark of his, of his work

17:43

in the past is excellent casting. So. I'm

17:46

I want to be clear unclear like

17:48

what role Jillian Anderson will play like

17:50

is she gonna be one of the

17:52

main leads again, right? Cuz they have

17:54

they have talked and it sounds like

17:56

they're being Koi Yeah, the way that

17:58

Anderson seemed has to put it when

18:00

she's been asked is like I am

18:02

I will be there no matter what

18:04

essentially like if Cougler like it's up

18:06

to Cougler like she isn't like overtly

18:08

like she isn't interested or uninterested like

18:11

Cougler is an incredible talent if I

18:13

can be helpful I Ultimately think it

18:15

would be Broadly distracting and it should

18:17

be a like I think it should

18:19

be if it happens. It's It's very

18:21

brief. I think I think the better

18:23

that Cougler identifies and makes the X

18:25

files completely this whole thing Even if

18:27

it's a sequel series where like we're

18:29

gonna still acknowledge that world happened. That's

18:31

fine, but Dude, I loved that show

18:33

and I want to I want to

18:35

move the F on like I I

18:37

would much rather have something that feels

18:40

pretty blank slate Yeah talking about Jillian

18:42

Anderson Cougler said she's incredible and fingers

18:44

crossed there We're going to try

18:46

to make something really great, bro and make

18:48

something for the real ex files fans and maybe

18:50

find some new ones and I don't know

18:52

what that means, but I want to find out.

18:55

I want to believe. I

18:57

want to believe. I don't

18:59

know. I don't know. I mean,

19:01

I'm sure to talk about this more is

19:03

this actually like becomes more of a thing.

19:05

But I when he says that I want

19:08

to make this for the real I genuinely

19:10

want to know what does he mean by

19:12

that statement because. It's

19:14

not necessarily straightforward. When

19:16

an ex files fan is like, were you

19:18

a fan of this, like the storytelling? Were you

19:21

a fan of the character? I mean, I

19:23

just don't know what he means by that. So

19:25

I am excited to find out and there's,

19:27

there's, I can't think of many other talents I'd

19:29

want to take. I think it's

19:31

going to be hard. I don't even know if Cougar

19:33

can pull it off. But if someone's going to try,

19:35

like, step up to the plate, my man. I'm happy

19:37

to see you. Give it a shot. All

19:40

right, one other piece of TV news we

19:42

want to discuss, and that is a huge portion

19:44

of the Harry Potter TV show cast was

19:46

revealed this week. We

19:48

have said on this podcast, we're going to

19:50

check in with this project because it is a

19:52

massive project that Warner Brothers is spending a

19:55

lot of money on. And I

19:57

suspect at least the first episode

19:59

of the show is going to be

20:01

a cultural touch point. It's

20:04

also obviously married in controversy

20:06

because JK Rowling is extremely involved

20:08

in it And if there's

20:10

any hope that JK Rowling was

20:13

going to become more subdued

20:15

or chill with her positions on

20:17

a variety of political topics

20:19

The events of this last week

20:21

should put that to rest.

20:23

I don't know if you've been

20:25

following JK Rowling's online posts

20:27

But she's not backing down from

20:30

her set of beliefs that

20:32

said This whole PR

20:35

campaign, it's kind of felt like

20:37

a little bit of a slog,

20:39

I think, because there is a

20:41

lot of ill will against this

20:43

project, I think, from people who

20:46

are no longer on the JK

20:48

Rolling Train. And

20:50

these actors are just

20:52

people who... want

20:54

to work in an industry that

20:56

is very difficult to find work

20:58

in. At the same time, they

21:00

are also associating themselves with this project and this

21:02

creator in a way that I think is

21:04

gonna lead to them feeling like they need to

21:06

defend themselves. And I think

21:08

we're gonna see more and more

21:10

of that as time has gone

21:12

on. We haven't even gotten to

21:15

the casting of the actual primary

21:17

three actors in this project yet. Apparently

21:19

HBO has been auditioning more

21:21

than 32 ,000 children. For the

21:23

lead role of Harry Potter famously

21:26

originated by Daniel Radcliffe No

21:28

actor has been chosen yet, but

21:30

the casting team is reviewing

21:32

between 500 and 1000 audition tapes

21:34

per day and quote Anyway,

21:36

some of the casting that's been

21:38

announced John Lithgow is playing

21:40

Albus Dumbledore I think we already

21:43

knew about that because he

21:45

accidentally let it drop during a

21:47

separate PR campaign Papa Esiedu

21:49

is playing Severus Snape Janet McTeer

21:51

playing Minerva McGonagall and Nick

21:53

Frost playing Hagrid. Those

21:55

are some of the

21:57

major casting announcements. But

22:00

Patrick Klepek, I am curious if you have

22:02

any thoughts on how this all has been rolling

22:04

out. I

22:06

am very skeptical that this show will

22:08

be good and it just feels

22:10

like there's this cloud over it because

22:12

of JK Rowling's objectionable views on

22:15

trans people. What do you think? Yeah,

22:17

the bigot is still being a

22:19

bigot. So let's make that exceedingly clear

22:21

not that we haven't in the

22:23

past when we talked about her and

22:25

this show. I mean,

22:27

sure, yes. A

22:30

job is a job, but also like

22:32

jobs are different. And this

22:34

one comes with particular

22:36

weight like you are going

22:38

to be asked questions

22:40

that you have to answer.

22:42

And I guess if

22:44

you can square that circle.

22:46

for yourself, then Godspeed,

22:49

I guess. But I don't

22:51

know that I'm weeping

22:53

too much for the photo,

22:55

especially like John Lithgow,

22:57

like my guy, like, like

22:59

you don't, you don't. Nick Frost

23:01

probably also you don't, you don't, you

23:03

know, my sympathies if they lie anywhere

23:05

are with like the three young kids

23:07

that are likely to be anonymous. And

23:10

the three main leads of Harry

23:12

Potter have been very outward. And public

23:14

when asked I mean Emma Watson

23:16

has receded from from you know She's

23:18

she's a formally retired from acting

23:20

but more or less. She's sort of

23:22

stepped back to do a lot

23:25

of philanthropic work But all three are

23:27

have said in in in tones

23:29

like very specific like that like they

23:31

they disagree with With Rowling they

23:33

agree that she's a bigot and have

23:35

all basically said trans rights in

23:37

some form or another and Everyone involved

23:39

in this project is going to

23:41

be asked that and or HBO is

23:43

going to hide them from like

23:46

there will be limited, deeply limited PR

23:48

access in order to avoid various

23:50

folks stepping in it. And it's one

23:52

thing for these season actors to

23:54

look like Nick Frost, like your big

23:56

boy, like you can answer big

23:58

boy questions about this. But like,

24:00

what's the age of the kids going to

24:02

be cast in this first in this first

24:04

book, this first, you know, an adaptation, they're

24:06

going to be 10, like 10, 11, 12.

24:08

I think Harry Potter's the characters chosen when

24:10

they're 11, right? So 11 ish. That's

24:13

a wait man. You don't deserve

24:15

when you're 11 and So my heart

24:17

goes out to those young kids

24:19

whoever ends up choosing this hoping that

24:21

they can You know make it

24:24

in the in the in Hollywood because

24:26

of it, but uh, yeah, it's

24:28

it's a Everyone else deserves the

24:30

criticism that's coming right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah,

24:32

I mean, I think that's completely

24:34

fair John Lithgow is worth tens of

24:36

millions of dollars He

24:38

is 79 years old. He's seen enough of

24:41

this industry to know, hey, if you

24:43

take this role, you're going to need to

24:45

deal with some criticism. I will say

24:47

some of the coverage of this has been

24:49

pretty bizarre. Deadline had

24:51

this article. Patrick Lepic,

24:53

John Lithgow responds to Harry Potter

24:55

fans appalled with his Dumbledore casting.

24:57

That is the headline at Deadline.com.

25:01

Hey, Patrick, what do

25:03

you think people are appalled by? Because

25:05

according to this article, John

25:08

Lithgow is quoted as being on

25:10

BBC's The One Show saying, I

25:12

will be following the great Michael

25:14

Gambin. I'm not an

25:16

Englishman. Even though I

25:18

played one on TV, I remind

25:20

everyone that I did play Winston

25:23

Churchill on The Crown and did

25:25

just fine. So that's why people

25:27

are appalled according to this article.

25:29

It's because he's an American person

25:31

playing a British person. And that

25:33

is the only reason why Harry

25:35

Potter fans are unhappy with John

25:38

Lithgow being in the role That

25:40

is just a bizarre framing for

25:42

this art, you know, like And

25:44

I'm curious. I'm curious kind of

25:46

what other Bizarre framings we're gonna

25:48

see basically in the weeks to

25:50

come when more casting is announced

25:52

Just something keep your eye on

25:55

you know is like how how

25:57

it's being covered and discussed And

25:59

do any tensions arise as a result

26:01

of outward pressure to folks involved to

26:03

sort of sit, you know, this happened

26:06

a bit with Hogwarts Legacy, the video

26:08

game that was exceptionally popular. It's why

26:10

I know you think this show might

26:12

not be good, but I think that

26:14

is an irrelevant point. I

26:18

mean, Hogwarts Legacy, a massively

26:20

like one of the most profitable

26:22

games like one of the It

26:25

was like the number one and number

26:27

two best -selling game in the year

26:29

that it came out a couple years

26:31

past and that is Millennials specifically are

26:34

just primed for just like I am

26:36

you know I'm 40 years old myself

26:38

like I you know grew up as

26:40

these books were Coming out and the

26:42

film started rolling out and it turned

26:44

into a worldwide phenomenon like that age

26:46

group is just primed You know to

26:48

to be excited for something like this

26:51

and to set aside, or if they're

26:53

not engaged with, you know, Rowling's views

26:55

to make this a big thing. So

26:57

I expect it to be an enormous

26:59

hit, regardless of these complications surrounding it.

27:01

And the question is, like, in Hogwarts

27:03

Legacy, you know, you can

27:05

make your character non -binary. You don't have

27:07

to choose male or female. And there

27:10

were different ways that the creatives in

27:12

that video game tried to signal to

27:14

the audience, like, we understand your concerns

27:16

and some of the compromises we're making

27:18

and trying to make this game with

27:20

the, you know, the creative and what

27:22

they're out there saying. And rolling was

27:24

largely uninvolved with the creation of the

27:26

game, right? So it's like, this

27:29

is gonna be a real test

27:31

is, I don't know if that's

27:33

the right word, but it's gonna

27:35

be a real sort of barometer for

27:37

like how the Harry Potter fandom

27:39

as a whole. feels about rolling

27:41

at this point and or is

27:43

willing to patronize her wares So

27:45

and I suspect as you indicate Patrick

27:47

Many people will simply willing to

27:49

watch the show and We'll see

27:51

how it all plays out. We'll

27:53

be covering it here on I

27:56

don't know that we'll cover the show

27:58

week to week But I think

28:00

we will have to like at

28:02

least watch the first episode Whenever

28:04

it comes out to discuss where

28:06

things stand with the show. Yeah, absolutely.

28:09

Anyway Those are some thoughts on what's

28:11

going on in the world of TV

28:13

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on. monday.com, the first work platform

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you'll love to use. Let's

29:19

move on, Patrick Klepek, and

29:21

talk about some specific TV episodes

29:23

on the air right now. I

29:27

want to mention again that... and

29:29

I will be covering the pit

29:31

in a boat. There's first of

29:33

all, I don't say there are

29:35

so many bonus episodes going on

29:38

right now on the decoding TV

29:40

feed There's just tons of stuff.

29:42

We finished covering the white lotus

29:44

Patrick and I are gonna be

29:46

covering the pit this week probably

29:48

and also you should expect a

29:50

Podcast episode covering every drop of

29:52

and or season two and I

29:55

look forward to how

29:57

that's going to play out, but it's going to

29:59

be me and an old friend from the podcast.

30:01

That's the current plan for us to cover and

30:03

or season two. So look forward

30:05

to that. And in the meantime, we'll of

30:07

course be covering the last of us season two,

30:09

as well as the rehearsal season two week

30:11

to week. So that is what you have in

30:14

store for you right here on the decoding

30:16

TV podcast feed. And of course, I want to

30:18

make sure you check out the decoding TV

30:20

dot com newsletter as well, where we're doing written

30:22

recaps of many of these shows. All

30:26

right, let's get

30:28

into a better clubic.

30:30

Let's talk about

30:32

the last of a

30:35

season two episode

30:37

two Trust me it's

30:39

for the best

30:42

do it You don't

30:44

do it I'm

30:46

gonna smash her in

30:49

the fucking head You

30:54

want to rob us? Fine. Take what you

30:56

want. Do we look like raiders to you? No.

31:06

What do we look like? Welcome

31:10

to Decoding TV's coverage of the last

31:12

of a season 2 episode 2. I'm

31:15

David Chen here with Patrick

31:17

Lepeg. Patrick, this is going

31:19

to be a major infamous

31:21

notorious episode. of the last

31:23

of us. You should assume

31:25

that we are going to spoil everything that happens

31:27

in this episode at this point. We

31:29

will not spoil anything from the video games.

31:31

Instead, that will be for a separate bonus

31:33

episode that is available for DecodingTV.com paid subscribers.

31:36

But in the meantime, Patrick Klepek, what

31:38

did you think overall of the episode? It's

31:41

interesting to be... I

31:43

watched Game of Thrones not

31:45

knowing what was going

31:47

to happen next, but getting

31:49

primed in anticipation of

31:51

certain moments. And knowing I've

31:53

stepped into something, but

31:56

not knowing what I've stepped into. So it's interesting

31:58

to be on the other side of that here where

32:00

I felt like I've sat on a great secret,

32:02

especially with my wife, who I watched the show with.

32:04

And I've just been waiting for this weight to

32:06

be lifted. And

32:08

that weight gets lifted, so

32:10

to speak, in this episode. I

32:13

think it's a pretty excellent. Episode

32:15

of television I really enjoyed

32:17

was thrilled by everything that

32:19

happens in Jackson with the

32:21

in with the sort of

32:23

the horde that approaches the

32:25

town I think it's inevitable

32:27

to compare how things play

32:29

out with Joel in that

32:31

in that cabin in that

32:33

mini mini mansion on the

32:35

on on the mountainside I

32:37

Think it's pretty great, but

32:39

also I felt it was pretty

32:41

great and thrilling and exceptional and shocking

32:43

when I played the video game. My, you

32:45

know, my qualms with where the story

32:47

telling goes happens long after this moment. And

32:49

I thought this choice was exceptionally brave

32:52

in the video game. I was stunned. I

32:54

could not believe this is the choice

32:56

that they were making for the beginning of

32:58

this game, the beginning of this story.

33:00

I suspect a lot of people are going

33:02

to have that reaction. And I think

33:04

on that level, I think They pull it

33:06

off. I think Caitlin Deaver pulls it

33:08

off. It's a different performance. Characters

33:10

are in different places than they were

33:12

in the video game. We'll get into that.

33:14

But I thought it was a pretty

33:16

exceptional hour of television for a pretty exceptional

33:18

moment in video game storytelling. And

33:21

I think from that measure, I think

33:23

they more or less hit the mark

33:25

on what they were trying to achieve

33:27

in this episode. And I thought it

33:29

was thrilling and daunting and terrifying. I

33:33

gotta say I mostly agree. There

33:35

was this zombie attack that happened

33:37

on the town and One of the

33:39

things I really appreciated about it

33:41

was how competent the towns people were

33:43

right it really felt like they

33:45

prepared for this and They had a

33:47

plan and they had a multi -level

33:49

plan in case stuff happens and

33:51

that's always really impressive when You feel

33:53

like the characters are ahead of

33:55

you or at least at your level

33:57

in terms of what you would

33:59

do in that situation. I appreciated that

34:01

obviously the moment is shocking and I

34:04

think it really made me reconsider.

34:06

You know, I have my wife

34:08

and our friend. We have a

34:10

friend who we're all watching the

34:12

show together. And it

34:14

really made me consider like

34:17

the whole season is

34:19

making me consider how different

34:21

the medium of video

34:23

games and TV are because

34:25

I think with the

34:27

video game, it's it's less

34:30

of an option. to

34:32

like, peace out after something like that happens. You

34:34

know I'm saying? Like, right, when

34:36

something shocking happens, you're like, I disagree with

34:38

that. First of all, I agree with you.

34:40

I think it's a great, brilliant, creative decision. I

34:43

think I have a lot of issues with The

34:45

Last of Us Part II, the rest of the game,

34:47

after not this. My choice, yeah. This is not

34:49

our... This is not it. And in fact, I thought,

34:51

Patrick, we should actually discuss what our beef with

34:54

the game is during the bonus episode, because I don't

34:56

think it's been multiple years. I don't think people

34:58

know like... In many ways, there's a, when I mean

35:00

a great weight, like... like

35:02

there are things I could spoil that happen

35:04

in the rest of Last of Us Part

35:07

2. But mostly, but we've been dancing around.

35:09

Yes. Is this so that we can feel

35:11

more free to talk about the themes of

35:13

The Last of Us Part 2 than the

35:15

specifics of individual moments. And so I think

35:17

this also unlocks in how we talk about

35:19

our reaction to this episode. We can speak

35:21

in more generalities about like how our feelings

35:24

about the story telling and its relation to

35:26

the game that are not going to spoil

35:28

specific beats. Because it's like once this one

35:30

is lifted, We can like

35:32

when we could talk about what we're

35:34

talking about which does not felt

35:36

like what we've been doing in the

35:39

past I think In a video

35:41

game when something like this happens and

35:43

let's say hypothetically not me you

35:45

disagree with the decision Most

35:47

people are probably just gonna keep playing

35:49

the game like they're they're not gonna just

35:52

stop playing the video game because it's

35:54

like oh well I want to see what

35:56

else is in the game and you

35:58

get a lot more out of the game

36:00

than just the story you get the

36:02

gameplay you get other things out of the

36:04

game and last part to is one

36:06

of the best third -person action it like

36:09

it is a Sublime survival horror. Yeah, like

36:11

it's a sublime action survival horror game

36:13

like I Yeah, like and we'll get into

36:15

this and we'd like more freely about

36:17

or it like I love playing the last

36:19

of us part and I think that's

36:21

a huge part of like those are they're

36:23

well -made action games right the experience of

36:26

playing the game is Related to the

36:28

story, but it's not a hundred percent dependent

36:30

on the story right however the experience

36:32

of watching a TV show is a hundred

36:34

percent dependent on the story and I

36:36

was My wife was very upset by the

36:38

events of this episode. And she's like,

36:40

I don't know if I'm going to keep

36:43

watching this. Like, I'm curious how many

36:45

people are just going to piece out because

36:47

it is much easier to piece out

36:49

of a TV show than it is, in

36:51

my opinion, to like stop playing a

36:53

video game you spent 70 bucks on. And

36:56

I'm curious like how this impact will

36:58

ripple through the community of people who

37:00

are watching the TV show only. You

37:02

know what I mean? I think we

37:04

have evidence of like. I mean evidence

37:07

in like concrete terms You know Game

37:09

of Thrones is a show that over

37:11

time like grew in popularity like it

37:13

and one of those big moments was

37:15

You know, it was the red wedding,

37:17

right? Like those who know, you know,

37:19

like, you know, big some big stuff

37:21

happened there and that involves like something

37:24

thematically similar story -wise to like what

37:26

we're talking about here and That didn't

37:28

dissuade anyone from like like the show

37:30

just I think it's so different. So

37:32

hold on. So hold on but I

37:35

fell off the walking dead very early

37:38

like once like after season two felt

37:40

the show was meandering I don't need

37:42

20 plus episode like it's why I

37:44

was off the the walking dead train

37:46

after after season two But for many

37:48

people I know in my life that

37:50

kept watching that show and we have

37:52

audience data that supports this again I'm

37:54

not gonna spot like there is a

37:56

specific beloved character that dies in a

37:58

brutal Unflinching way. I think it's season

38:00

five several several seasons further into the

38:02

show and they lost significant

38:04

audience as a result of that

38:07

character death. And so not all character

38:09

deaths, those shocking or out of

38:11

nowhere play the same with the audience.

38:13

And I think it is incredibly

38:15

possible. I'm not saying likely, but possible

38:17

that what happened to the walking

38:19

dead is closer to what would happen

38:21

with Last of Us than Game

38:23

of Thrones, which is like, oh, anybody

38:25

can live or die. I got

38:27

to stick out. I got to see

38:29

what happens next. I think there's

38:31

a decent chance. like

38:33

this character was a reason a lot

38:36

people watch the show and Given

38:38

where you and I know where this

38:40

story goes next there. I could

38:42

see more people exiting that train absolutely

38:44

when forward absolutely and I don't

38:46

even think walking dead is comparable right

38:48

like I think that Literally watch

38:50

the opening credits of the of the

38:52

last of us right at the

38:54

very end of the last of us

38:56

opening credit It's like these two

38:58

figures rising up out of the court

39:00

of steps or whatever. It's Joel

39:02

and Ellie And

39:04

I think people think of this show

39:06

as the dynamic between those two characters, even

39:09

though a lot of other stuff happened

39:11

in season one. And

39:13

I don't know that what's left

39:15

is gonna be enough to persuade them

39:17

to continue watching the show. So it

39:19

just made me reflect on like, oh,

39:21

in the video, like most people, when

39:23

they get to this part in the

39:26

video game, they're not just gonna like

39:28

stop playing. Most people, right? Not

39:30

gonna stop playing, but. It is a very

39:32

valid thing for people to just stop watching the

39:34

show. There's so much of it. In this

39:36

podcast, we talk about all the other stuff that's

39:38

up there. You have the pit

39:40

to catch up on, and you have Daredevil

39:42

born again to catch on. I can do

39:44

anything else with my life. You can do

39:46

anything else other than watch The Last of

39:48

a Season 2. And also, we'll get into

39:50

this more specifics. I would say the emotional

39:52

state, the video game leaves you in based

39:54

on how it... is

39:56

choosing or not choosing is probably more

39:58

accurate to give you certain information. The

40:00

emotional state that you are in as

40:02

the player, as the viewer of the

40:04

story, when this moment occurs in the

40:06

video game, I would argue is pretty

40:08

different, even though it's in the same

40:10

spectrum, but it's pretty different than the

40:13

emotional state you are left in with

40:15

the information you have in the television

40:17

show. And I think we'll get into

40:19

all those decisions. think we could, again,

40:21

we'll talk about it in bonus episode,

40:23

but I think we can say that

40:25

When Abby kills Joel, we're not

40:28

spoiling anything at this point in

40:30

talking about this change when Abby

40:32

kills Joel in the game You

40:34

don't know why she did that

40:36

right right, which is like extremely

40:38

shocking moment You you don't understand

40:40

you like imagine not knowing why

40:42

this person killed Joel like that

40:44

would be like so upsetting Which

40:46

it was for many people right

40:48

you have no sympathy you have

40:50

no empathy right nothing to project

40:52

on this person except vile Patriot

40:54

and so when Ashley Johnson who like

40:57

portrayed Ellie and in the video games says

40:59

like I'm going to fucking kill you

41:01

or like some some version of that That's

41:03

you like that's right the player. Yes

41:05

speaking through that performance and a similar sort

41:07

of line happens here And it hits

41:09

differently. Yeah, I'm not saying it hits wrong.

41:11

It's just different So I do think

41:13

part of what I'm getting at is I

41:15

think the video game primes the pump

41:18

a bit more for you to be like

41:20

Well, what are you going to do

41:22

turn the game off? I know just gone,

41:24

but like get the fuck out there,

41:26

Ellie. You know what I mean? It's just

41:28

it lands in a slightly different place.

41:30

I think it's deliberate. It's a method. It's

41:32

a it's a purposeful choice in how

41:34

they're landing this moment differently. But

41:36

I'm with you that is I think partially

41:38

as a result, like they could have gone

41:40

that route. They could have deprived you of

41:43

any information on Abby at this point. And

41:45

I'm actually. baffled why they didn't

41:47

go that route, because originally we had

41:49

speculated on our bonus episode last week, like

41:51

the reason why you would introduce Abby's

41:53

motivations earlier is so that you would actually

41:55

care about what she's doing as you

41:57

follow her throughout the season. But if they're

41:59

just going to kill Joe off in

42:01

the second episode, like that is completely unnecessary.

42:03

Then I wonder why they did it.

42:05

Right. Like you could have used this information

42:08

somewhere else. Right. Like it doesn't, it

42:10

doesn't. I'm I'm very curious why they

42:12

did it this way because you could have

42:14

just had if If they did it in the

42:16

second episode you could have had you could

42:18

have done it the same way and I'm curious

42:20

why they didn't do it the same way

42:22

But maybe we'll find out or it'll become clear.

42:24

I just wanted to finish off the point

42:26

Patrick. I think I Do think Joel is an

42:28

anchor character on this show like he anchors

42:30

a show in a way that I think Is

42:33

not really true of walking

42:35

dead or even Sean Bean in

42:37

Game of Thrones like right?

42:39

I think it's it's unlike any

42:41

of those situations and so

42:43

again very curious how this is

42:45

gonna ripple through the the

42:47

TV fandom and And whether viewership

42:49

is gonna be impacted or

42:52

not We'll see we'll see but

42:54

I think I largely agree

42:56

with you that it was a

42:58

solid execution for a shocking

43:00

episode And

43:02

I'm looking forward to diving into detail

43:04

in the episode, but also into the

43:06

spoilers that we're going to have in

43:08

the bonus episode for paid decodingTV.com subscribers.

43:11

OK. So let's talk about what happens

43:13

this episode. Last of

43:15

us, season two, episode two, through the valley, the

43:18

episode opens with a flashback to

43:20

the end of season one, where Abby

43:22

is walking through this hallway that

43:24

we kind of recognize from the end

43:26

of season one. and

43:29

finds that her dad has been

43:31

murdered by Joel Miller. We later learned

43:33

that it's her dad. I don't

43:35

think we know in that moment, but

43:37

we later learned that it's her

43:39

dad and she kind of talks to

43:41

herself in Ghost's imagined doppelganger form

43:43

a little bit. But it's

43:45

a dream. Abby wakes up, they're

43:47

in some kind of mansion or lodge and Jackson

43:49

Hole's in the distance, and...

43:52

They discover oh wow this place

43:54

looks a lot bigger the daytime

43:56

than I did at night like

43:58

they thought it was tiny at

44:00

night But now that it's the

44:02

daytime. It's like wow. There's like

44:04

hundreds of people there. Probably they

44:07

have power lines Four main gates

44:09

guard towers patrols, etc. And

44:11

they don't know where Joel would you

44:13

say they're fucked Yeah, and they don't

44:15

know where Joel is Owen is one of

44:17

the people in the crew and he

44:19

says he has concepts of a plan for

44:23

how to get in there. So

44:25

Abby heads out on patrol and Owen reveals that

44:27

the plan is to convince her to go back

44:29

because if we don't, the only people who are

44:31

gonna get killed here are us. We

44:36

cut to Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

44:38

It's Ellie and Jesse. She's

44:41

waking up. Jesse's getting her because they're about

44:43

to go on patrol. Before

44:45

they do that, they stop

44:47

by, I guess the... hall and

44:49

the guy who was a

44:51

bigot to Ellie the night before

44:54

apologizes and gives her some

44:56

steak sandwiches to try and make

44:58

up for it But we

45:00

also learn that there are there

45:02

was a pile of infected

45:04

near some cabins and Some some

45:06

some infected are insulating themselves

45:08

from the cold using other infected

45:10

They're getting smarter basically they're

45:12

getting smarter and more fierce And

45:16

it's clear that that's going to become a

45:18

problem. It's also clear that Joel

45:20

and Ellie have a complicated relationship at this

45:22

point. There's something going

45:24

on between them. It's not exactly clear

45:26

what exactly that was. But Joel

45:28

went out on patrol with Dina. And

45:31

he tried to get Ellie to go with him,

45:33

but she was sleeping. And

45:35

so, you know, they'll have to

45:37

settle their situation in another way.

45:39

Well, no, I think it is

45:41

worth pointing out. I believe what

45:43

actually happens there is they were

45:46

going to have her come out

45:48

and Joel says, let her sleep.

45:50

Let her sleep. Yeah. And like,

45:52

hey, last night was rough. Like,

45:54

don't let her have the extra

45:56

time, which I think speaks to

45:58

as Ellie walks away. Like,

46:01

you could tell she feels a little bit bad

46:03

about what happened that night before. Yeah,

46:05

and I think the last we see

46:07

is she kind of happens upon Joel

46:09

while he's playing the guitar and then

46:11

we never see what that interaction is

46:13

So and but we also know that

46:16

she had a late night So presumably

46:18

at some point we might see a

46:20

flashback where we see what that conversation

46:22

was right anyway Joel Already

46:24

went out on patrol with Dina. Meanwhile, Tommy

46:26

is briefing everyone in the town on

46:28

what to do in the event of a

46:30

breach. The storm intensifies and

46:32

the town prepares for a zombie

46:35

siege. Jesse

46:37

and Ally are out on patrol and

46:39

they take shelter in a 7 -Eleven. It's

46:41

full of weed and we

46:43

learned that it was created by,

46:45

this whole situation was created

46:47

by Eugene Linden, Jesse's

46:50

first patrol partner who was

46:52

formerly a firefly. Also

46:55

He was a Vietnam veteran and

46:57

that's what made it particularly tragic

46:59

that Joel had to put him

47:01

down So I think Eugene is

47:03

the character from last week, right

47:06

that we that has met gales

47:08

husband, right as mentioned so Maybe

47:10

we'll find out more about that

47:12

situation later the way Ellie Respect

47:14

like Jesse says I was really

47:16

sad how Joel had to put

47:18

them put put him down and

47:20

then Ellie responds with just sort

47:22

of a. Yeah,

47:25

which was like that felt like a

47:27

dot dot dot. Yeah,

47:30

when she said that, I was thinking

47:33

like. She's

47:36

she's contemplating all the people that Joel

47:38

has has had to put down or

47:40

not put down probably and wondering, you

47:42

know, about how consistent that's been. But

47:45

anyway. Abby.

47:50

sees Joel and Dina from afar.

47:52

She's kind of like cracking

47:54

Joel and Dina. It's

47:57

unclear if she knows that that's Joel and

47:59

Dina. Because the whole plan was she's going to

48:02

capture some people who are out on patrol

48:04

and beat the truth out of them. That was

48:06

her plan. I don't know what she was

48:08

planning to do by herself. But regardless,

48:10

she's following these two people from

48:12

patrol. It's Joel and Dina by coincidence.

48:14

She doesn't actually know it's Joel. and

48:18

she accidentally falls into a pit

48:20

full of infected corpses. And

48:22

there's a very creepy moment when

48:24

the infected start moving and the

48:26

ground starts shifting, and

48:28

then the infected just start bolting

48:30

after Abby. It's a

48:33

super tense scene, and eventually

48:35

she kind of gets behind this

48:37

chain -like fence. And,

48:39

you know, trying not to do too

48:41

many video game comparisons during this main conversation,

48:43

but... does mirror a scene in the

48:45

video game where Abby is behind a chain

48:47

link fence and there's a bunch of

48:49

infected going after her. And I have to

48:51

say, both scenes in the video game

48:53

and in the show are really effective. Like

48:55

they're really well done. And it's just

48:57

cool to see how something that was in

48:59

a video game is ready to real

49:01

life. And they did like a really faithful

49:04

job of it, I thought. I

49:06

think there's even more infected in the show

49:08

than there were in the video game. So

49:10

it's like really well done in the show.

49:13

And it's a super tense scene, and you

49:15

think Abby has escaped, but then one infected

49:17

gets on top of her, and it almost

49:19

is about to get the better of her.

49:21

But then all of a sudden, out of

49:23

nowhere, someone shoots this infected

49:25

in the head, and we

49:28

learn it's Joel. He has just

49:30

saved Abby's life. So

49:32

painfully ironic. And Joel

49:34

comes to the rescue, Dina

49:36

calls out for him, and

49:38

Abby realizes what's happening. She

49:40

has found Joel. She has

49:42

located Joel. It's one of

49:44

the luckiest happenstances ever. And

49:47

she convinces Joel to go back

49:49

to the base where all of her

49:51

friends are. Meanwhile,

49:54

Tommy and this other woman in a wheelchair

49:56

named Amy, they're trying to raise Joel on

49:58

the radio, but they can't find him. A

50:00

massive zombie attack befalls the

50:02

town. And

50:05

again, the towns people do some really

50:07

cool shit like the rolling barrels of

50:09

oil and gas or whatever off the

50:11

edges and they have like multiple waves

50:13

of gunfire set up to protect the

50:15

town and Yeah, what did you think

50:18

of the scene because this is this

50:20

is a brand new scene. It's not

50:22

in the games at all Patrick Lepic.

50:24

What was your reaction to this sequence?

50:27

Well, I think this is in line

50:29

with a couple other sort of changes

50:31

tweaks they make Across this episode like

50:33

the the horde that Abby runs from

50:35

Is just sort of random like they're

50:37

just sort of out there in the

50:39

video game like something that occurs in

50:41

the blizzard There's more of an actual

50:43

setup here. We're like, oh, hey, like

50:45

we've discovered that the Infected seem to

50:47

be like using the dead to like

50:50

heat themselves like so that they can

50:52

remain alive like we don't exactly know

50:54

what that means and so there's a

50:56

little more of a through line of

50:58

like why things are happening out here

51:00

in a Set up in the video

51:02

game that is very Coincidental I don't

51:04

think about it too much What great

51:06

luck that all these characters just happened

51:08

to run into each other and they

51:10

didn't have to deal with Jackson here

51:12

like everyone has given a little more

51:14

to do a little more logic to

51:16

Sort of what's happening and I you

51:18

know I think if you've watched Game

51:20

of Thrones It's kind of hard to

51:23

not watch this sequence and just start

51:25

comparing it to very other various other

51:27

siege sort of sequences that occurred in

51:29

that show in particular but Even all

51:31

that said, I think it holds up. Part

51:33

of what I found very thrilling about

51:36

this sequence is I didn't know it was

51:38

going to happen. This doesn't happen in

51:40

the video game. And so I think structurally,

51:42

the way the action plays out is

51:44

very fun to watch. Like you said, the

51:46

fact that the characters all seem to

51:48

be working in unison and things are going

51:50

wrong, but they have a plan, a

51:52

way of dealing with this. It's much like

51:54

watching the pit. Watching people be competent

51:56

is enjoyable. and

51:59

then but watching competent people face like

52:01

obstacles is then itself fun because it's

52:03

like well this person is smart and

52:05

resourceful like what will they do like

52:07

when suddenly stripped of their ability to

52:09

like follow the plan that they had

52:11

and also there's a little bit of

52:13

I guess are all stakes on the

52:15

table at this point like I'm based

52:17

on like what I know happens like

52:19

I in some ways shouldn't this remove

52:21

tension from the scene but I don't

52:23

know about how you felt but even

52:25

though I thought I knew What

52:28

needs to happen because of what I know

52:30

happens in the game like. That

52:32

sequence itself and how harrowing it's depicted I

52:34

was like. I don't know

52:36

man like I get I maybe they're

52:38

taking bigger swings on like where this season

52:40

goes then what I was thinking in

52:42

it all I actually was thrilled and

52:44

tense during many sequences that. My

52:46

knowledge of the story should have betrayed that and

52:48

yet I found myself wound up in it both

52:51

because I think the show did a good job

52:53

of. establishing it's possible

52:55

that the stakes could be different in

52:57

this adaptation and I just think the

52:59

artistry the craft of the sequences get

53:01

you swept up in the thrill of

53:03

them in a way that your brain

53:05

turns off What other whatever knowledge you

53:08

might have about how the rest of

53:10

the story does or doesn't play out

53:12

Yeah, didn't happen for you sounds like

53:14

that that part happen for you. Okay

53:16

I think the actual siege itself was

53:18

like really cool and well done and

53:20

there was some really like neat little

53:22

The dogs the dogs were great dogs

53:25

were cool. I thought there was a

53:27

there's a shot where at the very

53:29

end In the foreground you see a

53:31

guy show he's like a bite mark

53:33

to his his his colleague and The

53:35

person takes a gun and shoots him

53:37

in the head like I don't know

53:40

if you saw that yeah, and it's

53:42

just like oh wow, that's super dark

53:44

but I think that

53:46

fundamentally on a premise level, I just

53:48

don't like the sequence because in my opinion,

53:50

the whole point of being out in

53:52

the middle of nowhere is so you can't

53:54

get it to be attacked by zombies. In

53:58

the game, nothing like this

54:00

ever happens, and you understand, oh,

54:02

they're out in a remote area

54:04

of Wyoming so that no one

54:06

can attack, because zombies

54:08

by themselves with the infected would

54:10

freeze to death. And so the

54:12

idea that there's just like a thousand of them out here, Where

54:16

are they going at night? Like they're really just

54:18

like all taking shelter for warmth. Anyway, so it's really

54:20

kind of like on the premise level that I'm

54:22

not a fan of it. Other than that, I thought

54:24

it was a great, well done sequence. You know

54:26

what I'm saying? But it's just kind of like, I

54:29

don't like the whole point of being out.

54:31

Otherwise, why not just live in the city,

54:33

Patrick? If you're going to be able to

54:35

be attacked by hordes of zombies. You know

54:37

what saying? suspect I guess I'm giving the

54:39

show a little more leeway with this because

54:41

I think the like the

54:43

way the infected communicate in the show

54:45

and how they're running out, like what

54:47

was in the pipe and like how

54:50

that essentially signaled them to come to,

54:52

it feels like the show is going

54:54

to expand upon how the nature of

54:56

the infected work that I, like I'm

54:58

with you and I think what the

55:00

show is saying like, well, just like

55:02

all of you change, like so are

55:05

the effect that are going to evolve

55:07

and just being in the middle of

55:09

nowhere is not necessarily, you know. You

55:12

know a going to protect you

55:14

so and to be clear Yes,

55:16

I understand there's advantages to being

55:19

more remote like sure wall and

55:21

stuff like I get it. So

55:23

I'm not saying there's no advantages,

55:25

but I guess I just liked

55:27

the idea of This place being

55:29

like relatively safe like there's there's

55:31

value in that Like storytelling wise

55:34

in having a place that's relatively

55:36

safe and contrasting that with places

55:38

that are not safe, right and

55:41

with this scene, it's just like, actually nowhere is

55:43

safe really. And it's like, okay, well, I

55:45

guess they're just freezing their

55:47

ass off for nothing. Well,

55:51

Joel doesn't have to, well, Joel doesn't have to worry about

55:53

a lot anymore. But that

55:55

housing crisis in Jackson, hey.

55:58

Absolutely. Not a problem anymore, you know, probably

56:00

okay. They're not going to be worrying about

56:02

that anymore. So, um, that was a plus.

56:04

That was a plus. But yeah, some cool

56:06

sequences, the flamethrower stuff, like I actually really

56:08

enjoyed the flamethrower. two guys that just fucking

56:11

them out of here. The

56:13

flamethrower, like PSI getting lower

56:15

and lower. There

56:18

was this great moment when Tommy's trying to

56:20

escape and he sees a bunch of boxes stacked

56:22

up and he can't get through it. And

56:24

I felt like that was a kind

56:26

of Subtle nod to not only the

56:28

last was video games, but video games

56:30

in general where like often you are

56:32

geographically constrained because there's just some boxes

56:34

there and you can't It's an invisible

56:36

wall, but there's boxes there and that's

56:38

why you can't go past the boxes

56:40

The sequence where he fights the the

56:42

bloater felt very video game coded as

56:44

well I was explaining that to my

56:46

my wife afterwards who she doesn't play

56:48

All that many video games like it's

56:50

something that happens when you face her

56:52

these kind of tank creatures, which is

56:54

what the bloater is, is you just

56:56

unload. You unload. And you're just hoping

56:58

that you put in enough ammo for

57:00

them to like the invisible HP. You

57:02

felt I felt the invisible HP bar

57:04

going away. I know it was going

57:06

to happen, not in the like, like,

57:08

I know what happens in the story

57:10

of this game. But was like, Oh,

57:12

this feels very much like they're going

57:14

to do the sequence that everyone who

57:16

plays a video game, especially survival horror

57:18

video games, like just unload the shotgun,

57:20

unload the shotgun. And at some point

57:22

he's going to go and hit the

57:25

ground and wipe your brow. And it

57:27

felt like they were using that in

57:29

a very if you know, you know,

57:31

sort of way. But it didn't feel

57:33

like, hey, video game fans, like we're

57:35

doing a video game thing. It just

57:37

felt like something video game coded, but

57:39

that worked regardless of whether you have

57:41

any experience with. Yeah. Games like that.

57:43

But I thought it was a cool,

57:45

a cool sequence. Yeah. Yeah. And

57:49

I think at the end, Tommy

57:51

and Maria both survive, right? If

57:53

I recall correctly. Yes. Yes. There's

57:55

no sense that they have bites

57:57

or anything to be concerned about.

57:59

But but it's pretty, it gets

58:01

pretty dicey. It's pretty dicey there.

58:04

Jackson is taken and, you know,

58:06

that's. Jackson remains

58:08

that safe place, you know, sort of

58:10

in the video game. But here, like,

58:12

that is kind of one of the

58:14

fundamental changes they make. Because Jackson is

58:16

also vulnerable. Maybe not. Who

58:18

knows where the story goes from here in

58:20

regards to that. But that is definitely something

58:22

that they hit out in this adaptation. There

58:27

is a heartbreaking moment when

58:29

Joel sees... Jackson burning in the

58:31

background and he kind of

58:33

wants to go down there But

58:35

Abby says hey no we're

58:37

almost at we're almost at the

58:39

base. Trust me like we

58:41

can get to the base. gonna

58:43

be fine. We meet Abby's

58:45

crew which consists of Nora Manny

58:48

as well as Mel are

58:50

in the crew and At that

58:52

point it becomes really quickly

58:54

that something is wrong Abby confronts

58:56

Joel and Says there's no

58:58

more fireflies. They're all gone. They

59:00

decide to put Dina to sleep for

59:02

an hour. And

59:04

there's a huge confrontation. And

59:07

we learn, again, more details about

59:09

why Abby wants to kill Joel. We

59:11

learned Joel killed 18 soldiers and

59:13

one doctor, an unarmed doctor

59:15

that he shot in the head. And we

59:17

learned that that was Abby's dad. We

59:20

learned that Abby's in a militia. She was

59:22

trained not to kill people who are defenseless,

59:24

but she's making an exception here. And

59:27

she shoots Joel in the

59:29

leg with a shotgun and then

59:31

starts bashing it with a

59:33

golf club eventually Ellie bursts in

59:35

just in time to see

59:37

Joel get stabbed in his neck

59:39

to death and that is

59:41

the end of Joel Miller in

59:43

the last of us so Yeah,

59:46

Patrick any it's hard to compare it

59:48

like talk about the scene without comparing it

59:50

to the scene in the video game

59:52

But I'm curious like and I wish you

59:55

know like both Patrick and I played

59:57

the video game The other co -host who

59:59

has joined us Christian Spicer obviously split the

1:00:01

video games So I wish we had

1:00:03

like a unadulterated perspective on this that said

1:00:05

I am curious Patrick Put the video

1:00:07

game out of your mind. What did you

1:00:09

think of this scene? I

1:00:12

thought it was really effective

1:00:14

and upsetting You

1:00:16

know, like again, not it is

1:00:18

so hard to not compare the

1:00:20

two. It's just inevitable when you

1:00:22

have a scene with this much

1:00:24

stakes. Yeah, part of why

1:00:26

the Jackson sequence and other choices they've

1:00:28

made storytelling wise in this adaptation where it's

1:00:30

like, oh, you know, they mentioned

1:00:32

this in our first conversation with Christians. Like

1:00:34

I want to get to a place with

1:00:37

this season where I can just be with

1:00:39

it as a show. And it doesn't mean

1:00:41

that I'm going to like it or dislike

1:00:43

it. It's like I'd like to not constantly

1:00:45

in my head. Be comparing what I saw

1:00:47

and we'll see if that changes once we've

1:00:49

gotten past this. Really pivotal important moment from

1:00:51

the game that is also pivotal important in

1:00:53

the television show but. I

1:00:55

mean I think they I think they sell

1:00:57

it like pretty well I think Caitlin Deaver

1:00:59

sells it. Pretty well it's a

1:01:02

different take on Abby and I think people

1:01:04

need to make their piece with that

1:01:06

or you're just going to be upset. The

1:01:08

rest of the show like it's a

1:01:10

different. It's a different abbey

1:01:13

like it shares a lot of the

1:01:15

characteristics, but I think for what she's

1:01:17

being asked to do I think Diva

1:01:19

nailed it like I think it's a

1:01:21

really upsetting emotionally powerful scene and Yeah,

1:01:23

I mean it's I thought it was

1:01:25

great like as great as something as

1:01:28

upsetting as that can be I think

1:01:30

they I think they nailed what they

1:01:32

were looking to nail and then once

1:01:34

you go past that it's You're starting

1:01:36

to immediately just draw on the comparisons.

1:01:38

I think the bet unfortunately It's like

1:01:41

it's kind of impossible to do what

1:01:43

you're asking me to do which is

1:01:45

like just respond to the scene because

1:01:47

I just can't like yeah, especially given

1:01:49

how many choices they make that are

1:01:51

different than the game from aesthetics to

1:01:53

You know more specifics But you know

1:01:56

the best you know point of comparison

1:01:58

I have is my wife who like

1:02:00

was deeply invested is that person who? You

1:02:03

know was very invested in these

1:02:05

two characters Joel specifically And

1:02:08

like this episode ended and it was

1:02:10

like, I need a minute. Like normally we

1:02:12

finish watching a television show. She crawls off

1:02:14

to bed. I play video games for a

1:02:16

couple hours before I go to sleep. And

1:02:19

she was like, I'm going to just

1:02:22

like we turn the lights on and

1:02:24

kind of chill on the couch for

1:02:26

a little bit. Sure. Like, do you

1:02:28

need to talk? She's like, no, I

1:02:31

just want to like sit like. Doomscroll

1:02:33

on my phone for a couple minutes.

1:02:35

Yeah, so I think you know by that

1:02:37

barometer which is the closest I can

1:02:40

get to the Emotional state that I was

1:02:42

in when I played they came originally

1:02:44

like what's different from me and you at

1:02:46

least I think this is true is

1:02:48

I played the game before it came out

1:02:50

and so I experienced this moment in

1:02:52

not just the isolation of COVID but the

1:02:54

isolation of No one else knowing about

1:02:56

it. Yeah, like however many thousands of people,

1:02:59

you know, but like a small group

1:03:01

Relative to the many people that played the

1:03:03

video game Like I experienced that on

1:03:05

my own and then reaching out to people

1:03:07

I knew that were playing it But

1:03:09

my wife had the reaction that I had

1:03:11

when I played the video game and

1:03:13

so if I use that as a proxy

1:03:16

I Think they nailed it. I think

1:03:18

they did a good job as well. Caitlin

1:03:20

Dever is an amazing actor and She

1:03:22

did a wonderful performance here. I

1:03:24

Agree with you It is really difficult

1:03:26

to separate from the game and she

1:03:28

essentially like without like to be extremely

1:03:30

blunt about it She is

1:03:33

a much smaller person in

1:03:35

the show than she is

1:03:37

in the game and I

1:03:39

do think like the the

1:03:41

version of Abby in the

1:03:43

game is like a much

1:03:45

more hulking physically imposing character

1:03:47

and that really did bring

1:03:49

a lot of I Think

1:03:51

viciousness to what occurs here

1:03:53

in a way that I

1:03:55

think is They it felt

1:03:57

like they had to compensate

1:03:59

for that In the

1:04:01

show by making the show very

1:04:03

graphic The way that it's

1:04:06

depicted in the show is much

1:04:08

more graphic than what is

1:04:10

in the game in my opinion

1:04:12

In the game like as

1:04:14

you're swapping between characters also The

1:04:16

video game is shot in

1:04:18

the dark the television show is

1:04:20

shot in the light and

1:04:22

there is a Kind of brutal

1:04:24

nature to the lighting of

1:04:26

the video game that contributes to

1:04:28

your experience of the events

1:04:30

that unfold that is pretty different

1:04:32

than in this like these

1:04:34

giant like, I know, Baywind. Like,

1:04:36

I mean, as you know,

1:04:38

it is bathed in light in

1:04:40

the show. And that is

1:04:42

just like there's a darkness that

1:04:44

pervades. The scene

1:04:47

lighting in the video game

1:04:49

that is not not present

1:04:51

here. Yeah. So

1:04:53

I thought she did a very solid

1:04:55

job and it is a. Shocking moment

1:04:57

and the way it's depicted is shocking

1:04:59

and and well executed so and they

1:05:01

don't flinch I again like you know

1:05:03

you and I you know when we

1:05:05

talked about this season with Christian I

1:05:08

was I don't feel bad about this

1:05:10

prediction but like I felt there was

1:05:12

every indication that they were gonna put

1:05:14

this off to later in the season

1:05:16

and it seemed like they might have

1:05:18

even good storytelling reasons to do that

1:05:20

and the kind of things they were

1:05:22

expanding in Jackson and The Abby

1:05:24

characters, like if we're going to if we're

1:05:26

going to talk about her motivations early on, let's

1:05:29

have her around in Jackson. Like all that

1:05:31

seemed like totally reasonable stuff that didn't betray the

1:05:33

logic and the motivations of the game, but

1:05:35

just went down a different path. And

1:05:37

like the moment the Blizzard kicked in, I

1:05:40

said, oh, shit, they're going to do it. And

1:05:42

I don't. I do think it's bold

1:05:44

to do it this early in

1:05:46

the season. Like it's because as we've

1:05:48

discussed, it's really like testing the

1:05:50

loyalty of the audience to the show.

1:05:53

And you're doing it two episodes

1:05:55

into a seven episode season,

1:05:58

you know, so like Yeah, yeah,

1:06:00

so anyway Ellie busts in

1:06:02

just in time to see Joel

1:06:04

get the life extinguished from

1:06:06

him But the crew does not

1:06:08

harm Ellie or Dina That's

1:06:11

like part of their whole code.

1:06:13

I guess is there like

1:06:15

we're not gonna hurt anyone else

1:06:17

and I think that's worth

1:06:19

noting but We see - see

1:06:21

Ellie as a threat, right? Like,

1:06:24

I think if any of

1:06:26

them was a certain threat calculus,

1:06:29

maybe you make an exception, but they'd look

1:06:31

at Ellie and think, well, what could

1:06:33

this little girl do to us? I

1:06:35

mean, she did slice that guy's hand,

1:06:37

I think it was really bad. Face, I

1:06:39

think. Well, it was face in the

1:06:42

game. I don't know if it was face

1:06:44

show. I played these sequences back to

1:06:46

back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, she did slice

1:06:48

that guy on the skin somewhere. And

1:06:51

anyway, the

1:06:54

Jesse, Ellie, Dina, they

1:06:56

go back, they're dragging Joel's

1:06:58

body behind them. And we hear

1:07:00

a cover of Through the

1:07:02

Valley performed by Ashley Johnson, right,

1:07:04

who plays Ellie in the

1:07:07

game. This is from

1:07:09

the last of us part two

1:07:11

covers and rarities and EP that's related

1:07:13

to the release of the video

1:07:15

game. So the video game DNA is

1:07:17

deep throughout the show. But

1:07:19

anyway. That's the

1:07:21

end of the episode

1:07:23

any other thoughts on

1:07:25

What happened here? Really

1:07:27

hard to talk about without talking

1:07:30

about the game so like we're

1:07:32

not gonna really predict anything But

1:07:34

any other thoughts on the episode

1:07:36

we just saw I'm curious I'm

1:07:38

curious given some of the choices

1:07:40

they made about like this isn't

1:07:42

a spoiler, but some characters are

1:07:45

in different places in the in

1:07:47

the show, then they are in

1:07:49

the game. And I

1:07:51

sort of understand. I can see

1:07:53

maybe where they're going with that, but

1:07:55

I'm I'm curious as a viewer

1:07:57

to see what the consequences, the

1:07:59

ripple effects of those choices are as

1:08:02

we move forward and Ellie goes on

1:08:04

this new journey. Like

1:08:06

for me, looking at this where this

1:08:08

like. In some ways, like

1:08:10

I know where the story goes, but I

1:08:12

don't know where this story is going. And

1:08:14

I still can't quite pin that down. It's

1:08:16

like, OK, we spent all this time expanding

1:08:18

on Jackson. I thought I knew

1:08:20

with the seven episode arc of this

1:08:22

show of the season was like I felt

1:08:24

pretty confident that episode six was going

1:08:26

to be this scene. And then episode

1:08:28

seven was going to be let's go do something

1:08:30

about it. Clearly, that's not

1:08:33

the case. And this sounds like

1:08:35

this might cover more than I thought.

1:08:37

And I am now interested. What

1:08:39

is Ellie's? What is Ellie's arc? for

1:08:41

the rest of the season. And

1:08:44

how much of that is slow

1:08:46

played versus, you know, what we see

1:08:48

in the game. So I remain

1:08:50

sort of not sure where this season

1:08:52

goes. I'm shocked and

1:08:54

I respect that they did as early as

1:08:56

they did. But now I'm fascinated to see

1:08:59

what decisions they make going forward. Yeah,

1:09:02

I agree.

1:09:06

I just have a lot of questions about why they did

1:09:08

things this way, and I'm curious

1:09:10

if the rest the season will answer some

1:09:13

of those questions. But

1:09:15

overall, I think they designed this

1:09:17

episode to be a shocking

1:09:19

episode with some really sort of

1:09:21

memorable moments that people are

1:09:23

going to be talking about for

1:09:25

a long time. And I

1:09:27

think if that was their objective,

1:09:29

overall, they accomplished it. And

1:09:31

that is worth noting. It doesn't

1:09:33

feel like a twist. It's

1:09:36

shocking, but it didn't feel like a twist

1:09:38

when I played it in the video game. I

1:09:41

don't think it feels like a twist here. Like

1:09:43

it doesn't feel cheap, I guess. I

1:09:45

obviously disagree with like where the

1:09:47

story goes, like, or at least I

1:09:49

did in the video game, but

1:09:52

I still I don't. Like, how do

1:09:54

you do a sequel? Kill off

1:09:56

a shot. It feels like earned as

1:09:58

a motivation for this character, this

1:10:00

world. And even if in my heart

1:10:02

of hearts. Kind of was

1:10:04

Joel was still alive and they went on

1:10:06

a different adventure together. Yeah, by the

1:10:09

way, which was still possible like Who knows

1:10:11

that maybe they're gonna dramatically change the

1:10:13

video game from the like I didn't know

1:10:15

if they were gonna change things But

1:10:17

they decided to not change things and here

1:10:19

we are, know, and I will say

1:10:21

they like we'll see where it all ends

1:10:23

up But it felt like a brave

1:10:25

choice not a cheap choice in the video

1:10:27

game and I think I

1:10:29

think that's in kind in the television show. It

1:10:31

feels like a brave choice, not a cheap choice. And

1:10:33

it's just a matter of what do you, once

1:10:35

you make, once you play that card or even take

1:10:37

that card out of the deck, you got to

1:10:39

fill it with something. And that's,

1:10:41

that's what I want it like, right?

1:10:43

Like that's what you and I are. And

1:10:46

I don't know if we'll get that

1:10:48

answer this season. This feels like something that

1:10:50

is more of a multi season answer

1:10:52

for you and I, but we found

1:10:54

the answers incomplete or frustrating in the

1:10:56

game. And I'm. That's the thing I'm most

1:10:58

curious about from here is, do I

1:11:00

have a different response to the television show?

1:11:02

Yeah. Well,

1:11:05

Patrick Kloppek and I still have lots

1:11:07

more to discuss about the video game

1:11:09

versus the show. And if you want

1:11:11

to hear those thoughts, become a paid

1:11:13

subscriber at decodingtv.com. We'll be posting bonus

1:11:15

episodes comparing the two things. And

1:11:17

thanks to everyone who's a paid subscriber

1:11:19

at decodingtv.com who makes this podcast possible. Those

1:11:22

are our thoughts on the last of a season two episode two.

1:11:24

Let us know what you think in the comments. Does

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1:12:43

Before we move on Patrick Lepic you want

1:12:45

to let people know they can find

1:12:47

more of your work on the internet this

1:12:49

week? Yes, you can hear me talking

1:12:51

about video games over at remap radio calm

1:12:53

And I have a parenting and gaming

1:12:55

newsletter called cross play that you can subscribe

1:12:57

to a cross play news Where this

1:13:00

week I'll have a guide to pre -ordering

1:13:02

the switch to if you are Frantically trying

1:13:04

to figure out how you should get

1:13:06

that for you or your kids Excellent.

1:13:09

I'm definitely interested in getting that for me, Patrick. So

1:13:11

I'm gonna have to check that out. But

1:13:14

yeah, if you wanna check

1:13:16

out more of my work, decodingeverything.com

1:13:18

and become a free subscriber

1:13:20

to decodingtv.com where we're having our

1:13:22

written recaps published there, check

1:13:24

that out as well. If

1:13:26

you're interested in our conversations here

1:13:28

on the podcast, I think

1:13:31

you'll enjoy subscribing to the free

1:13:33

newsletter at decodingtv.com. Okay,

1:13:35

Patrick, let's talk about...

1:13:37

season two, episode one. I've

1:13:42

been studying commercial aviation disasters

1:13:44

as a hobby and I started

1:13:46

to notice a disturbing pattern

1:13:48

in the causes of these crashes.

1:13:51

15 years ago, you recommended

1:13:53

role -playing exercises. EFAA said, no,

1:13:55

for whatever reason, they're just

1:13:57

not going there. I

1:14:00

do have some experience. with

1:14:03

creating elaborate role

1:14:06

-playing scenarios. And

1:14:08

I do have money to

1:14:10

put towards this. Yeah,

1:14:12

I think you're on to something there. Let's

1:14:14

work together to save some lives. Welcome

1:14:18

to Decoding TV's coverage of the rehearsal

1:14:20

season two premiere. I'm David

1:14:23

Cheny with Patrick Lepic. Patrick, apparently

1:14:25

you had not watched season one

1:14:27

of the rehearsal before this last

1:14:29

few weeks, is that correct? Yeah,

1:14:31

I when I when I knew you

1:14:33

wanted us to watch the rehearsal season two

1:14:35

my understanding was that at least for

1:14:37

my I didn't watch the show and so

1:14:39

I was like oh but from the

1:14:41

framing device that I understand about the show

1:14:43

seems a little more anthology based and

1:14:45

so I can probably jump into season two

1:14:48

and be okay But I should get

1:14:50

a flavor of season one and my intention

1:14:52

was to just watch an episode or

1:14:54

two just so I could be in the

1:14:56

right frame of mind and then And

1:14:58

I'm watching the entire season finishing

1:15:00

it up yesterday prior to the

1:15:03

premiere season two and and what

1:15:05

did you think Patrick? I found

1:15:07

it to be a morally reprehensible

1:15:09

show Mostly because it involves kids

1:15:11

right like that's the problem right

1:15:13

um a storytelling level I think

1:15:15

the rehearsal kind of loses the

1:15:17

plot whatever it has the moment

1:15:19

that Nathan fielder becomes a character

1:15:21

because Mm -hmm. I don't know

1:15:23

who Nathan fielder is right who

1:15:25

he really is like are you

1:15:27

playing? A character is this

1:15:29

Nathan Fielder the I just at

1:15:32

no point is that clear and

1:15:34

as a result of that I

1:15:36

found it very difficult to. Attach

1:15:38

myself to him and the

1:15:40

absurdist elements like weren't enough and

1:15:42

then yes like the moment

1:15:45

the show became about. All

1:15:47

these families and child actors specifically like

1:15:49

the moment where the kid is confused about

1:15:51

whether the elder is his father I

1:15:53

found how that was handled by the show

1:15:56

by Nathan. to be like

1:15:58

morally reprehensible. And I

1:16:00

like the show just like completely

1:16:02

like like lost me at that

1:16:04

point. I don't know what I'm

1:16:06

watching. I don't know why I'm

1:16:08

watching this. I was I could

1:16:10

not finish it. I was like,

1:16:12

I have to see what this

1:16:14

is going to do by the

1:16:16

end. Yeah, like the ending only

1:16:18

made me want to throw the

1:16:20

remote at the screen a little

1:16:22

bit more, which put me in

1:16:24

a very interesting place. I'm watching

1:16:26

season two. Well,

1:16:28

I'm going to say I thought the

1:16:30

rehearsal season one, yes, I agree

1:16:32

with your qualms. I'm not like saying

1:16:34

it was morally above board. But

1:16:37

I thought it was largely a masterpiece. And

1:16:40

it's very interesting because see, episode

1:16:42

one of that show promises a

1:16:44

very different show than we end

1:16:46

up getting. Yes. And

1:16:48

episode one in itself. is a masterpiece, in

1:16:50

my opinion. agree. I was fully on it.

1:16:52

You're like, oh my gosh, I'm hooked. Let's

1:16:54

do this. Six episodes of this, I cannot

1:16:56

wait. But then it goes in such a

1:16:59

different direction. And then it's safe to say

1:17:01

also that the rehearsal season 2 goes in

1:17:03

a vastly different direction as well. And that's

1:17:05

one of the things about the show is

1:17:07

that you never know what you're going to

1:17:09

get in a given episode. And there is

1:17:11

something exciting about that. I agree. I share

1:17:13

the same moral concerns as you, especially with

1:17:15

regards to children. I think anyone who

1:17:17

signs up for anything Nathan Fielder

1:17:20

related should know what they're signing up

1:17:22

like it's very easy to Google

1:17:24

Nathan Fielder and his antics and so

1:17:26

like if you're an adult you

1:17:28

have no excuse but I do not

1:17:30

play place the entirety of the

1:17:32

blame at Nathan Fielder's footsteps I as

1:17:35

a parent I found many of

1:17:37

the decisions the parents are making to

1:17:39

also be a deeply questionable,

1:17:41

yes. But I found the ending of

1:17:43

season one to be brilliant. It sounds

1:17:45

like it was very frustrating to you,

1:17:47

but this idea of like, there's

1:17:49

a lot of questions

1:17:51

in the show. I

1:17:54

would say some of the big questions the show

1:17:56

asks are, right? Like, is it

1:17:58

possible to remove variables from actual

1:18:00

real life situations, right? Like,

1:18:02

if you can rehearse over and

1:18:04

over again, can you master? Real

1:18:07

life, right? That's that's a question

1:18:09

another question is What is the difference

1:18:11

between playing a role and becoming

1:18:13

the role? Mm -hmm, right and and

1:18:15

how blurry is that line? And I

1:18:17

think season one really plays with

1:18:19

that line Particularly towards the end in

1:18:21

a way that I thought was

1:18:23

brilliant. So like I left season one

1:18:25

with chills in a good way

1:18:28

But I understand if it's not for

1:18:30

everyone. Yeah, and I agree like

1:18:32

I felt those questions really interesting And

1:18:34

in the first episode, when the

1:18:36

guy is doing the revealing that he

1:18:38

lied about his level of academic

1:18:40

achievement and he in the bar after

1:18:42

rehearsing all these incredible scenarios is

1:18:44

like when faced with the reality is

1:18:46

unable to like initially climb over

1:18:48

to do the thing he's supposed to

1:18:50

do. I'm like, wow. It's incredible. That

1:18:53

is an interesting that is

1:18:55

transcendent. And. I don't know who

1:18:57

Nathan Fielder is. And so

1:18:59

all these questions that you found

1:19:01

really interesting, I found

1:19:03

no introspection into the

1:19:05

answers of those because if

1:19:07

I don't know who

1:19:10

this person is, he

1:19:12

is a deeply unreliable narrator. And

1:19:14

the moment that you're an unreliable narrator, I

1:19:17

find it difficult to find any emotional

1:19:19

resonance within. Like that

1:19:21

character and like that ultimately like

1:19:23

putting aside like my feelings on like

1:19:25

how it handled like parents and

1:19:27

kids like I just couldn't like Who

1:19:29

are you and I just I

1:19:31

just couldn't I just couldn't get past

1:19:33

that with the show Well, he

1:19:36

does try to answer that question a

1:19:38

little bit in season two of

1:19:40

the rehearsal right in the season two

1:19:42

premiere gotta have fun Nathan fielder

1:19:44

decides to apply his resources and skills

1:19:46

to an interesting problem aviation disasters Very

1:19:49

timely show by the way Nathan Nathan

1:19:51

reveals he has studied aviation disasters throughout

1:19:54

history and one major issue is that

1:19:56

when the captain behaves recklessly The first

1:19:58

officer often doesn't feel empowered to bring

1:20:00

up any concerns Nathan realizes he can

1:20:02

apply his skills to help pilots role

1:20:04

play and become more comfortable Doing this

1:20:06

bringing up their concerns to their co

1:20:08

-workers And the first episode has him

1:20:10

following one specific pilot moody and having

1:20:13

him role play a flying scenario with

1:20:15

his girlfriend Patrick overall thoughts

1:20:17

on the season 2 premiere of

1:20:19

the rehearsal I Found it to be

1:20:21

slightly triggering because I'm like this

1:20:23

is the trap I fell into last

1:20:25

time like this seems really interesting

1:20:27

and this as a framework for a

1:20:29

show I could easily see many

1:20:31

episodes But it won't like my worry

1:20:33

is like at one point is

1:20:35

this character that I don't find interesting

1:20:37

or relatable Or experience all that

1:20:39

empathy for gonna insert himself into the

1:20:41

story And distract from the framework

1:20:43

that I like at the beginning and

1:20:45

I expect that's going to happen

1:20:47

at some point and Maybe it'll go

1:20:49

in a different direction and maybe

1:20:51

the lack of if it doesn't involve

1:20:53

like families and children I'll find

1:20:55

like a better way into it, but

1:20:57

I thought this first episode is

1:20:59

like brilliant I don't know how you

1:21:01

like couldn't not have that response

1:21:03

I had a very similar reaction to

1:21:05

this that I had to the

1:21:07

first episode of the first season which

1:21:09

is this is a fascinating way

1:21:11

to explore people's emotional journeys and The

1:21:14

questions they won't answer for themselves But

1:21:16

is that what this show actually wants

1:21:18

to be and I just that question

1:21:20

won't be answered for me until I

1:21:22

get further into it I Also thought

1:21:24

is brilliant and I should say some

1:21:27

may consider this to be a minor

1:21:29

spoiler for the rest of the show

1:21:31

But my understanding so be warned but

1:21:33

my understanding is this whole season is

1:21:35

going to deal with the aviation stuff.

1:21:37

That is my understanding. So it's not

1:21:39

going to be like a different kind

1:21:41

of disaster every week. Like it's like

1:21:44

all going to be aviation, which is

1:21:46

just like basically Warner Brothers just gave

1:21:48

Nathan Fielder money to deal with his

1:21:50

obsessions. That's kind of like what it

1:21:52

is. And there's something really incredible

1:21:54

about that. There's something really just like

1:21:56

they gave him millions of dollars to like

1:21:58

recreate these extremely elaborate things. Just

1:22:00

to focus on whatever he's fixated on at

1:22:02

that particular point in time. And

1:22:07

I think it's gonna be really

1:22:09

fascinating. I don't know how much he's

1:22:11

gonna insert himself into it, but

1:22:13

I think it's clear that he is

1:22:15

like a Central character in the

1:22:17

show in this season a way that

1:22:19

like in season one It wasn't

1:22:21

necessarily the case or season one episode

1:22:23

one. It wasn't necessarily the case

1:22:25

But like I think it's clear he's

1:22:28

it's we're clearly exploring his psyche

1:22:30

and what his obsessions are and his

1:22:32

insecurity at being a comedian now

1:22:34

again Huge questions about how

1:22:36

real any of this is like is

1:22:38

the is he actually is Nathan

1:22:40

fielder actually insecure about being a

1:22:42

comedian Or is he just saying he

1:22:44

is like we never really know

1:22:46

he remains an inscrutable an inscrutable

1:22:49

figure and I do think you're right

1:22:51

that that does Potentially hurt the

1:22:53

show but for me it kind

1:22:55

of makes the show more fascinating,

1:22:57

you know, like I'm always wondering where

1:22:59

does Nathan fielder's real persona Like

1:23:01

his real life person and and the

1:23:04

persona begin like does that even exist? Uh,

1:23:06

and I'm always like trying to see

1:23:08

the scenes when I'm watching the show and

1:23:10

it's it's it's difficult to find so

1:23:12

anyway Yeah, yeah, I find I find that

1:23:14

I I get for you. a positive

1:23:16

for me That's a negative and like I

1:23:18

love absurdist comedy and like other stuff

1:23:20

the fielder has been I've not seen Nathan

1:23:22

for you. I'm not curious to go

1:23:24

down that rabbit hole to see So

1:23:27

many of my friends and people I respect like

1:23:29

adore that show. It's incredible. I

1:23:31

guess I would like Nathan for you

1:23:33

quite a bit more than I how

1:23:35

I responded to to the rehearsal and

1:23:38

even the stuff that field has been

1:23:40

involved in like how to with John

1:23:42

Wilson, which we've covered. Yeah, this was

1:23:44

lastly is like one of my favorite

1:23:46

pieces of work like of art period

1:23:48

like but how to a John Wilson,

1:23:50

which also has a like deeply inscrutable

1:23:52

main character protagonist who's is someone following

1:23:54

their obsessions. It's such a deeply

1:23:56

human show like I find it

1:23:58

very easy to find my way and

1:24:00

again, they're very different shows, but

1:24:03

they both are following personal obsessions to

1:24:05

the point of absurdity and making

1:24:07

connections between those things but I found

1:24:09

how to a John Wilson be

1:24:11

such a human show and one that

1:24:13

celebrated people and even John Wilson

1:24:16

himself and I guess I just find

1:24:18

the fielder Whatever version of fielder

1:24:20

is here. I have difficulty like picking

1:24:22

apart the humanity of like him

1:24:24

as a as a person or a

1:24:26

character and that's the impenetra part

1:24:29

I kind of find about getting to

1:24:31

the next layer of the show

1:24:33

that other people seem to get to

1:24:35

that I was not able to

1:24:37

with the first season of the rehearsal.

1:24:39

I also think Fielder probably has

1:24:42

a layer of like more morally objectionable

1:24:44

than how to with Don Wilson

1:24:46

where He's

1:24:48

kind of looping people into these scenarios.

1:24:50

You don't know what the producers have

1:24:52

told these people about how they're going

1:24:54

to be depicted in any way. And

1:24:57

often they're depicted in ways that are like unflattering or

1:24:59

in a way that you might laugh at them. I

1:25:01

felt like John Wilson was just going to places and

1:25:03

pointing the camera at things. I did

1:25:05

not, but like with Nathan Field, there's

1:25:07

a whole layer of like deception. There's

1:25:09

this apparatus of like deception

1:25:11

that he employs that I understand

1:25:13

people. can object to. And

1:25:15

so like, that's a huge difference

1:25:17

between the shows. That

1:25:20

said, one of the things I really like about

1:25:22

Nathan Fielder is I think he's actually a great interviewer.

1:25:26

There's a part where he interviews this pilot

1:25:28

Moody, where he's just, he's

1:25:30

lying on his bed in a very

1:25:32

provocative position. And he's like, asking

1:25:34

him questions about like, His

1:25:37

he says like oh, yeah, I'm afraid

1:25:39

my girlfriend might like meet people at Starbucks

1:25:41

or what? You know people she might

1:25:43

like run away from Starbucks and he's like

1:25:45

what do you mean and he'll like

1:25:47

dive deep into Like something that they said

1:25:50

in a way that is very revealing

1:25:52

and that I appreciate And it reveals like

1:25:54

parts of the human psyche again in

1:25:56

so far as you can trust anything you're

1:25:58

seeing on screen is authentic which is Unclear

1:26:00

at best so those interviews. I mean

1:26:03

those are some of my favorite parts

1:26:05

where he's just talking to people one

1:26:07

thing he does I think it's part

1:26:09

of what makes him a great interviewer

1:26:11

Or he's able to get people to

1:26:13

open up is your natural impulse I'm

1:26:15

sure you experience this all the time

1:26:17

like hosting podcasts is to fill space,

1:26:19

right? Yes, like when there is a

1:26:21

gap the software you have on your

1:26:23

phone like when you listen to podcasts

1:26:25

the one I use overcast like If

1:26:27

he attacks a certain amount of time

1:26:29

in between, like people talking, a pause,

1:26:31

it will delete that to make everything

1:26:33

sound more natural. And there's this very

1:26:35

human impulse to, like, when there is

1:26:37

silence, to fill it with something, anything.

1:26:39

And that is even more something that

1:26:41

you feel you're trained to do, really,

1:26:43

to fill that space when you are

1:26:45

doing pseudo -public performances, like interviews, recording

1:26:47

podcasts. If you watch

1:26:49

Nathan Fielder closely, he's

1:26:52

constantly shutting up. He lets

1:26:54

he there is negative space within

1:26:56

his conversations where he leaves

1:26:58

elongated pauses and Whereas the normal

1:27:00

dynamic is if you're the

1:27:03

interviewer the power Dynamic there is

1:27:05

that well the interviewer the

1:27:07

person who's talking person they should

1:27:09

fill that with space ask

1:27:11

a question find something to follow

1:27:13

up on Fielder doesn't he

1:27:15

was absolves himself of that of

1:27:17

that part of it like

1:27:19

he still holds

1:27:21

the power in that dynamic, but

1:27:23

he'll ask something someone will say

1:27:26

something and then he'll just let

1:27:28

it sit awkwardly for seconds at

1:27:30

a time and you'll notice if

1:27:32

you start like kind of like

1:27:34

witnessing that dynamic What happens is

1:27:36

the other the person he's talking

1:27:38

to fills that space Yeah, and

1:27:40

they when they do that they

1:27:42

do so from an impulsive and

1:27:44

then if you're asking emotionally charged

1:27:46

questions a more vulnerable state because

1:27:48

you're acting Um, you're responding

1:27:50

impulsively as opposed to with a

1:27:52

calculation. So I think that ends

1:27:54

up being a lot of his

1:27:56

entryway into Really introspective conversations is

1:27:59

really just Shutting up. Yeah Agreed

1:28:01

completely Patrick any highlights from this

1:28:03

episode that you want to mention?

1:28:05

I want to say One of

1:28:07

my favorite moments from the episode

1:28:09

is when he can't get into

1:28:11

this pilots lounge And

1:28:13

so he builds a full scale replica

1:28:15

of the I mean visually the

1:28:17

show is extremely striking just Nathan fielder

1:28:20

standing in front of this like

1:28:22

green screen projection volume type thing It's

1:28:24

just like wow that looks incredible

1:28:26

He there's one scene where he like

1:28:28

emerges out of this Soundstage like

1:28:30

that has a plane crash simulated behind

1:28:32

it with these people dead on

1:28:34

the ground and all this stuff. It's

1:28:36

just like looks amazing There's

1:28:40

moments of awe and wonder

1:28:42

that I had watching the rehearsal

1:28:45

season one that I also

1:28:47

experienced watching this as well. But

1:28:49

he creates the scale model

1:28:51

of this airport with like the

1:28:53

freaking nursing station and the

1:28:55

advertisements and all that. Panda Express.

1:28:59

What appears to be a fully

1:29:01

functional Panda Express, you know, with

1:29:03

like the grill and the different

1:29:05

walks and everything. And

1:29:07

the sole reason for that seemingly

1:29:09

is so that he can observe what

1:29:12

happens in the pilot's lounge because

1:29:14

he couldn't go in the pilot's lounge

1:29:16

in real life. And then of

1:29:18

course, no one says anything in the

1:29:20

pilot's lounge. It's just incredible, incredible

1:29:22

that he went to all this trouble

1:29:25

for - Why aren't you talking? That's

1:29:27

an amazing reveal moment in the

1:29:29

episode, you know? I

1:29:31

also just found it very profound, Moody talking

1:29:34

with his girlfriend. at

1:29:36

the end of the episode because it

1:29:38

really feels like Moody was uncomfortable talking

1:29:40

with his girlfriend about this and that

1:29:42

this like fake Outlandish scenario allowed him

1:29:44

to share his true feelings with her

1:29:46

in a way that he doesn't he

1:29:48

isn't able to in real life and

1:29:50

it makes you wonder kind of like

1:29:52

What are some things that we are

1:29:54

unable to share with are the people

1:29:56

we care about that like if we

1:29:59

were in a role -playing situation We might

1:30:01

feel differently about you know, so Yeah,

1:30:04

I thought there were many wonderful moments

1:30:06

about the like if you'd asked me

1:30:08

to predict what the season would be

1:30:10

I would not have guessed it's gonna

1:30:12

use Nathan fielder skills to investigate aviation

1:30:14

disasters and how they unfold But you

1:30:16

know you and I recap the curse

1:30:18

on a week -to -week basis like I'm

1:30:20

On board with this guy and whatever

1:30:22

he's trying to do no matter what

1:30:24

no matter where he wants to take

1:30:26

me But yeah Patrick I mean How

1:30:29

are you feeling because it seems like the rehearsal season

1:30:31

one left a bad taste in your mouth? Like are

1:30:33

you kind of like on board for this? Yeah,

1:30:36

I mean again like that's why I described

1:30:38

the The first episode as a trap was

1:30:40

like this is how I felt last time.

1:30:42

Oh my god. I'm about to witness a

1:30:44

masterpiece and then I wanted to strangle the

1:30:46

guy on the outside of the TV by

1:30:48

the by the end of the first season

1:30:50

so I'm You know the

1:30:53

essentially what he does are

1:30:55

just like absurdist versions of going

1:30:57

to therapy, right? Yeah, like

1:30:59

that's kind of like a lot

1:31:01

of what fielder does is

1:31:03

What you're describing? You

1:31:05

know like when you and I talk

1:31:07

on a podcast It's not like it's

1:31:10

not like we're not having a real

1:31:12

conversation But like it is like it's

1:31:14

it's structured differently. You perform differently. It's

1:31:16

a performed conversation that It's still enlightening

1:31:18

and interesting, but it's like different than

1:31:20

sitting across the table from somebody and

1:31:22

just chit -chatting in the same way that

1:31:25

going to therapy like you might just

1:31:27

be talking like if you do like

1:31:29

couples therapy or something it's a it's

1:31:31

a the structure of how you talk

1:31:33

to someone. Matters

1:31:35

and then it's at the heart of

1:31:37

the rehearsal is like the structure of

1:31:39

like. how and why you talk to

1:31:41

someone. The medium is the message. Yes,

1:31:43

sometimes. Yes, they can play important parts

1:31:45

in your emotional vulnerability, what you want

1:31:47

to share, what you're willing to share.

1:31:50

And then the comedy comes from like, yes,

1:31:52

like actually not just building something that looks

1:31:54

like a Panda Express, but like if you

1:31:56

told me they were actually cooking the food

1:31:58

there at the moment that they're filming, like

1:32:00

all this stuff, like I would I would

1:32:02

believe you or like some version of like

1:32:04

in the when they build the bar in

1:32:06

the first season. They're not cooking

1:32:08

the pizzas, but like they are

1:32:10

cooking pizzas and then like putting

1:32:12