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1:13

Hello everybody and welcome to

1:16

Deep Left Field for Toronto

1:18

Stars Baseball podcast. I'm Mike

1:20

Wilman. It

1:32

is episode 239. Spring Training

1:34

is underway. Pictures and

1:36

Catchers have reported the

1:38

full squad is working

1:40

out and it includes

1:42

a Vladimir Guerrero Jr.

1:44

without a contract extension.

1:46

That is the story of

1:48

this week in Blue Jays

1:50

Land. Gregor Chism, my Toronto

1:52

Star colleague, has columns in

1:55

Wednesdays and Thursdays paper about

1:57

it. I've got a column

1:59

in Wednesday. paper about it, and

2:01

Gregor is going to join me

2:03

on this program from Dunedin to

2:05

talk about everything that's

2:07

going on in this spring training.

2:10

But of course, special emphasis

2:12

on the fact that the Blue

2:14

Jays and Vladimir Guerrero Jr. could

2:17

not come to an agreement on

2:19

a long-term contract, and Guerrero says

2:21

he will play out this season

2:23

and then go into free agency.

2:25

He still wants to stay in Toronto,

2:28

still wants to be a Blue Jay,

2:30

but now 29 other teams will be

2:32

competing with the Blue Jays for

2:34

his services. Now, Flattie said 29.

2:36

We all know it's not going

2:38

to be 29. It's probably going

2:40

to be three or four, maybe

2:42

five, but it's going to cost the

2:44

Blue Jays more money in the winter.

2:47

to sign Guerrero than it would

2:49

have cost them now. He's

2:51

betting on himself. The Jays

2:53

are betting that the market

2:55

will not be as strong as

2:57

Vladi thinks it's going to be.

3:00

It's just, I mean, if you

3:02

read my column in the star

3:04

on Wednesday, it is just another,

3:07

on a string of failures of

3:09

this front office, this winter,

3:11

last winter, the winter, the

3:14

winter before. The Blue Jays

3:16

have been on a downward

3:18

trend since 2021 and this

3:20

absolutely doesn't help. And maybe

3:22

that's one of the reasons

3:24

why this happened. Maybe Vladi

3:26

looked around and didn't like what

3:29

he saw. We don't know. All he said

3:31

is that he had a number. The

3:33

Blue Jays didn't come close to it.

3:35

And we get deep into discussions

3:37

with Gregor Chisholm coming

3:39

up next. Otherwise, it's been

3:42

a pretty quiet spring training.

3:44

Adamako, one of the

3:46

young prospect pictures, the Canadian,

3:48

has a knee issue with a meniscus,

3:50

so he's going to be down for

3:52

a while, at least you would think,

3:55

a couple of months, and he

3:57

joins a lot of young prospect

3:59

pictures. In Sick Bay, Adam

4:02

Cloffin-Sino, they brought back as a

4:04

free agent, a minor league free agent

4:06

is hurt as well. The Blue Jays

4:08

did bring in one more

4:11

pitcher, another reliever on a

4:13

minor league contract in the

4:15

spring training to help provide

4:17

depth, not really to compete

4:19

for a spot. It's Jacob

4:21

Barnes, and you might remember

4:23

the name. Jacob Barnes was

4:25

a Blue Jay for a couple

4:27

of weeks in 2021. That was

4:29

a really good Blue Jays team.

4:32

Jacob Barnes was part

4:34

of the Fits and starts

4:36

of the bullpen for the

4:38

Blue Jays that year and

4:40

wasn't around long and wasn't

4:43

good at all. You might remember

4:45

that the bullpen was

4:47

a real problem for the

4:49

Blue Jays for some points

4:51

of that season. Raphael Dolice.

4:53

Flamed out Trent Thornton was terrible.

4:56

Anthony Kay was up a little

4:58

and was bad. That was the

5:01

year they took a look at

5:03

Anthony Castro. Tommy Malone pitched

5:05

out of that bullpen. Patrick

5:07

Murphy got a shot. Jeremy Beasley.

5:09

There were a lot of pictures

5:11

just who weren't good. And when

5:14

you run down that list of

5:16

names and you think the Blue

5:18

Jays won 91 games, it makes

5:20

it even more spectacular. But Jacob

5:22

Barnes was. One of those, he

5:25

pitched in 10 games for the Jays

5:27

back in 2021 and had an

5:29

ERA of 630 allowed 18 base

5:31

runners in those 10 games, only

5:34

one home run in 10

5:36

innings and struck out 15.

5:38

He has pitched parts of

5:40

nine years in the major

5:42

leagues with nine different teams.

5:45

So just about the definition

5:47

of a journeyman. Last year

5:49

with the Washington Nationals, he

5:51

appeared in 63 games. And

5:53

in 66 innings allowed 67

5:56

hits in walk 20

5:58

striking out 55. I gave up

6:00

10 home runs. So across the

6:03

board numbers that aren't wonderful. The

6:05

walk rate's pretty solid, but that's

6:07

about eight. He's 34 years old.

6:10

He's here at depth and as

6:12

depth and I've already talked about

6:14

Jacob Barnes way more than Jacob

6:17

Barnes needs to be talked about

6:19

as far as the Blue Jays

6:21

bullpen. We mentioned Jacob Barnes at

6:24

all. We mentioned Vladimir Guerrero Jr.

6:26

A lot. And we also talked

6:28

about. all the other stuff that's

6:31

going on down there. It's a

6:33

really in-depth, terrific conversation with spring

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9:03

You're in deep left field. I'm

9:05

Mike Wilner. The Toronto Star has

9:07

been providing tremendous coverage of spring

9:09

training and will continue to do

9:11

so all the way to opening

9:14

day. March 27th against the Baltimore

9:16

Orioles at Rogers Center. We're going

9:18

down there in shifts. Gregor Chisholm

9:20

got the first one. Rosie DeManna

9:22

will be there in the middle.

9:24

I will be there for the

9:26

final week of spring training. We'll

9:29

be able to put together a

9:31

tremendous opening day extravaganza episode of

9:33

Deep Left Field for you then.

9:35

Gregor's been down there and he's been

9:37

watching, eyes open, ears open. He's been talking

9:39

to a lot of people. And I

9:41

wanted to get the low down, what

9:44

he's seen, what he's feeling, what camp

9:46

looks like to him. But of course,

9:48

the biggest story is the fact

9:50

that Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is

9:52

going into a walk here, someone.

9:54

Nobody wanted to happen, but the

9:56

Blue Jays just couldn't bring

9:59

themselves. to get anywhere

10:01

close to the number

10:03

the Vladimir Guerrero Jr.

10:05

was looking for. That's

10:07

where we'll begin. Here's

10:09

my conversation with Gregor

10:11

Chisholm. Gregor down there in

10:14

Dunedin, it's been an eventful

10:16

first week of spring training,

10:18

no question about it. We'll

10:21

get to the the Vladimir

10:23

Stuff in a second

10:25

because that's obviously the

10:27

focal point of everything.

10:29

Just as far as being down

10:31

there, full squad is finally reported.

10:34

You were there with the pitchers and

10:36

catcher for a week. I know I've

10:38

only been down at the beginning of

10:40

spring training once before the games and

10:42

you're generally down there every year. So

10:44

what's it been like down there? What's

10:46

the feeling around camp? How many people

10:48

are in the best shape of their

10:51

lives and all that stuff? Yeah, and honestly,

10:53

it might be surprising for some people

10:55

to hear this, considering the drama of

10:57

the last week, but it really has

11:00

been one of the most uneventful starts

11:02

to spring training that I've been around

11:04

for, because outside of Guerrero, and outside

11:06

of waiting on Guerrero, both to show

11:08

up and figure out his contract situation,

11:10

but just isn't a whole lot going

11:12

on with this team right now. And

11:15

part of that is because, you know,

11:17

the guys that they just brought in, are

11:19

guys that we just recently talked to. I

11:21

mean, Max Scherzer did a zoom with us

11:23

a week before spring training. Anthony

11:25

Santander had done one, you know,

11:27

a few weeks prior, like not

11:30

that long before either. And I

11:32

mean, Jeff Hoffman wasn't that long

11:34

ago either. So we had just

11:36

recently talked to the new faces

11:38

and everything else about this team

11:40

is just eerily similar to a

11:43

year ago. So as I'm going

11:45

through the clubhouse and working on

11:47

stories, you know, I'm working on

11:49

stories, I'm working ahead on a

11:51

few things and just going through the

11:53

list and working on a few things

11:56

and just going through the list of

11:58

guys and trying to. to build on

12:00

what they did last year. But it's very,

12:02

very similar to what we have been dealing

12:05

with for three, four months last year, and

12:07

it's kind of just a continuation of it

12:09

now. That's I mean, that's interesting. I guess

12:12

not unexpected because what can they, what else

12:14

can they really talk about other than the

12:16

Vladimir drama? And there, there's a lot of

12:18

stuff around the team that we will get

12:21

to in the second half of this conversation.

12:23

But first and foremost, you know, you've written

12:25

about it in the start two days in

12:28

a row. I wrote about it yesterday as

12:30

well. The Blue Jays and Vladimir Guerrero could

12:32

not come together on a contract extension.

12:34

We don't know. what Vlady was

12:36

asking, we don't know what the

12:38

Blue Jays were offering and while

12:40

those are important things, for me

12:42

it doesn't really matter, but I'd

12:45

like to get your take first before

12:47

we dive into it. Yeah, no, absolutely.

12:49

I mean, this really, I mean, we

12:51

can debate the contract that, you know,

12:53

Guerrero would accept now and what's what's

12:56

fair market value, but the point that

12:58

I keep coming back to and I'm

13:00

certainly not the only one. This isn't

13:03

a mistake for the... a day. This

13:05

mistake dates back a couple of years

13:07

at least. You know, I don't know

13:09

exactly, you know, what Guerrero wanted or

13:11

what the jays offered on Monday night,

13:14

but I am very confident in saying

13:16

that whatever the blue jays offered on

13:18

Monday night would have been accepted by

13:20

Guerrero a couple years ago. You know,

13:22

if this had been done around the

13:24

time that Fernando Tatis had signed his

13:26

deal, I mean, whatever they offered on Monday

13:29

night would have gotten it done. Without

13:31

knowing the specifics, I'm willing to bet

13:33

an awful lot on that. And

13:35

the same after 2022, I mean, this

13:38

team had an opportunity to place

13:40

a bet on the future of

13:42

Vladimir Goro Jr. a long time

13:44

ago, they declined to do so, and

13:46

now he is placing a large bet

13:48

on himself. And that in and of itself

13:50

did not be surprising. You know, a year

13:52

ago, and I felt very strongly and wrote

13:54

a column that, you know, if an extension

13:56

for a Vladimir Greer of Junior is going

13:58

to happen, it already. would have happened by

14:00

now. I actually did end up changing my mind

14:03

on that because there was a lot of things

14:05

that changed kind of in the year after that.

14:07

I mean there was the jays had just pursued

14:09

show Aotani but then they went out and pursued

14:11

one soda so it proved that show Aotani wasn't

14:13

a one-off. They now are operating with a

14:15

top five payroll. The payroll's gone up

14:18

even higher than it was before. Rogers

14:20

is spending at historic levels. There's lots

14:22

of things that can be factored in

14:24

that made me kind of think the

14:26

job security of the front office. The

14:29

lack of other moves made this off-season. There

14:31

were an awful lot of things that were

14:33

compelling the Blue Jays to make a deal.

14:35

Ultimately, they clearly couldn't align them on

14:38

what the future value is, but you

14:40

know, this is a team that, you

14:42

know, a couple years ago would have

14:44

thought that $350 million was was lackable

14:46

to offer Vladimir Grudgenier. Now they would

14:48

love to have him for that price,

14:50

and they're paying for that mistake now.

14:52

And it's easy to say that right

14:54

now. It's a benefit of hindsight, but

14:56

that's the route they decided to take.

14:58

They decided not to bet on him,

15:00

and now they're paying for it. Yeah, absolutely.

15:03

You know, if the day after

15:05

Fernando Tetis had signed his $340

15:07

million contract, the Blue Jays had

15:09

offered Vlad the same deal, maybe

15:12

$10 million less, because Tetis was

15:14

a shortstop at the time, or

15:16

even 20 or 30, he absolutely

15:19

signs that, and he's a Blue

15:21

Jay, if not for life, he's

15:23

a Blue Jay, into his late

15:25

30s, and you're right. They did

15:28

not bet on their guy. And it

15:30

feels also as though they're not...

15:32

reacting to the way the

15:34

market has shifted. Yeah, they waived

15:37

a billion dollars and Juan Soto's

15:39

face, a billion Canadian, and offered

15:41

Joe E. Otani, who knows present

15:43

day, close to 500 million

15:45

dollars, but the fact that these

15:48

contracts are being signed, the

15:50

fact that the market is moving

15:52

like that, it feels like they're

15:54

still kind of stuck a couple

15:57

of years ago with their valuation.

15:59

On one hand, I kind of understand it.

16:01

I mean, if you're talking about over $500

16:04

million or something like that for Vladimir Guerrao,

16:06

Jr. right now, I mean, I would feel

16:08

extremely nervous about signing to that contract. I

16:10

think he's a great talent. I would probably

16:12

do it. But I mean, when you're talking

16:14

about the number of years and dollars that

16:17

is, I mean, that also has the risk

16:19

of setting the franchise back for a long

16:21

period of time. So I mean, there certainly

16:23

is some huge risk there, but to me,

16:26

what you can do is you just can't

16:28

allow the situation you have right now where

16:30

you have them going into your walk year.

16:32

So if you don't want to pay those.

16:34

massive premiums that teams have to pay right now,

16:36

which by the way they were going to do

16:38

for Soto and other guys. So clearly they're prepared

16:40

to do it for some people. But if you're

16:43

not prepared to do that for Guerrero, what

16:45

you can't do is a situation you're in right

16:47

now, which is you have to potentially going to walk

16:49

away at the end of the year for nothing more

16:51

than a draft pick. And I mean, the Jays

16:53

are really back into a corner right now

16:56

because they have made moves to try and

16:58

win this year. So they have to

17:00

do everything that they possibly can to contend

17:02

in 2025. So that's going to leave for

17:05

an incredibly sticky situation mid-summer if the Jays

17:07

don't get off to an incredibly hot

17:09

start. I mean, this is a borderline playoff

17:11

team, best in my mind. I mean, this

17:13

is a team that projects to

17:15

be, you know, about a 500 ball club, maybe

17:18

an 82, 83 win team right now. That's probably

17:20

how I would put it. I wouldn't be

17:22

stunned if they made the playoff, but this

17:24

could be a scenario where you're six, seven

17:26

games back at the trade deadline as you

17:29

get into early July and then what do

17:31

you do? Like are you then forced to

17:33

not go for it because you've got all

17:36

these expiring free agents? Or you just say

17:38

to heck with it and go for it

17:40

and two months later be left with absolutely

17:42

nothing. So you got to pit it in

17:44

one direction or the other. You got

17:46

to either pay the guy. Or you

17:49

should have pivoted back in December. I

17:51

mean, one thing Guerrero said to us

17:53

was that, you know, when he announced

17:55

publicly this, you know, deadline, which to

17:57

us, I think, was revealed in,

17:59

like, December. January. He said yesterday to

18:01

us here in Florida that that he told

18:03

the Jays about that deadline at the end

18:05

of last season. So this is not new

18:07

news for the Jays. They knew this was

18:09

coming. They had the first couple months of

18:11

the off-season to prepare for this moment. They

18:13

had to have known that there was a

18:16

huge gap in negotiations. So that means that

18:18

they've been prepared to enter this walk year

18:20

the entire time. And to me, I just

18:22

don't know how you get past the winter

18:24

meetings. Knowing all that and not making a

18:26

pivot one way or the other, either you

18:28

go all in on trying to sign the

18:30

guy, you try and do it right away, and

18:33

then if you don't, then you trade them. Because

18:35

right now, you're in a very sticky situation where

18:37

this could really set the organization back for many

18:39

years to come, if you have both hand and

18:41

bow, just walk away for a little more than,

18:44

you know, two drappics. Yeah, there's no

18:46

question about that. You were

18:48

face to face with Vladi,

18:50

with Ross Atkins, with Mark

18:52

Shapiro, down in Dunedin when

18:54

they all spoke to the

18:56

media on Tuesday morning when Vlad

18:59

showed up with no new contract.

19:01

I just want to get your, you

19:03

know... I want to get you to tell

19:05

the people because I know how you

19:07

feel about the interactions, the three of them.

19:10

I believe Vladimir when he says he

19:12

wants to stay here, he wants to

19:14

play here, he wants to be a

19:16

forever blue jay. He said all that

19:18

through the translator on Tuesday. What was

19:20

your sense of the sincerity of

19:23

that? I believe it's sincere. I

19:25

mean, there's a huge caveat there,

19:27

though. He, I don't think that

19:30

there is a huge appetite for

19:32

him to take a huge discount

19:34

either. I mean, he wants, he's

19:37

looking to get market value. I

19:39

mean, that would have been the

19:42

same, he's looking to get market

19:44

value. I mean, that would have

19:46

been the same a couple years

19:49

ago, even when we're talking about

19:51

the same, So, you know, he's

19:53

he clearly is if if if

19:56

Vladimir Guerrero wanted, you know, if

19:58

all he wanted. to play for

20:00

the Jays and was desperate to make

20:03

that happen and it was the only

20:05

place he could envision himself being, the

20:07

Jays made him an offer that he could

20:09

have accepted that offer and been a very

20:11

rich man for the rest of his life.

20:13

It's not like the Jays will ball them

20:16

in that sense. But at the same time,

20:18

I do believe him that if he received

20:20

what is considered today to be a fair

20:22

market value for a player like that, he

20:24

would have gladly signed it. So I don't

20:26

think he is dying to, you know. I don't

20:29

put much stock into the Bob Nightingale's report

20:31

with USA Today that he's already telling friends

20:33

about how much he wants to play with

20:35

the Boston Red Sox. I think that type

20:38

of speculation is going to happen nonstop for

20:40

this upcoming year, but I don't think he

20:42

was desperately searching for a way to get

20:44

out. But I think it's also going to be

20:46

natural, you know, over these next six months,

20:49

every single road city that the Jay is

20:51

going to, he rolls into New York, what's

20:53

he going to be talking about is he's

20:55

going to be talking about those past comments

20:57

about the Yankees, he's probably going to walk

20:59

those back even more than he's already done.

21:01

If he's smart, he'll play nice. The Yankees

21:03

reporters will be all over them and the

21:06

Mets reporters will be all over me the

21:08

Red Sox reporters will be all over the

21:10

LA reporters will be all over it's gonna

21:12

It's gonna it's gonna be a circus. We're

21:14

already seeing it this week I mean

21:16

Steve Cohen's already come out and had

21:18

some some comments He's asked answered questions

21:21

about you know his potential interest

21:23

in Vladimir Carrillo. This is going to be

21:25

happening non-stop and so maybe by the end

21:28

of it'll look like he he's trying to

21:30

push his way out but no But he

21:32

also wants the Jays to pay up and

21:34

keep them in order to have that right.

21:37

Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting that he wants

21:39

to say for a discount at all. Then,

21:41

well I guess let's go in order. Atkins

21:43

was next. Was he the one who

21:45

said, it depends how you define close?

21:48

Yeah, that was one of the questions

21:50

that was asked of him and it's

21:52

a very, very Ross Atkins answer. I

21:54

was about to ask you, it depends

21:56

on what you defined next when you

21:58

said who is next. Other than, you

22:00

know, it's a given that pretty much

22:03

every time Ross opens his mouth, it's

22:05

a disaster. But PR-wise, what did you

22:07

get out of the discussion with Atkins?

22:09

Not much. It was more of the

22:11

same. I mean, I thought it was

22:14

a bit ridiculous. We were sitting there,

22:16

you know, debating the semantics of what

22:18

defines close, you know, close needed different

22:20

things to different people. I mean, it

22:22

just seemed that on like such a,

22:25

you know, big day in an unfortunate

22:27

day for the franchise, it was not

22:29

the time to, I don't think the

22:31

message that the fans wanted to hear

22:33

was that, nor do I think they

22:35

wanted to hear much about processes, you

22:38

know, and sticking to their values. It

22:40

was just, it was just another media

22:42

availability. It could have been any media

22:44

availability from the last, you know, three,

22:46

four, five, six years. Nothing really stuck

22:49

out to me except for kind of

22:51

shaking my head that that was how

22:53

they decided to go. But that's that's

22:55

how they've operated this entire time. So

22:57

I mean, on some hand, on one

23:00

hand, I mean, I guess if you're

23:02

trying to take something out of it,

23:04

I mean, I guess I would still

23:06

say that the J's haven't closed the

23:08

door on this and I would believe

23:10

that I wouldn't be surprised that at

23:13

some point in time, despite this deadline,

23:15

they try to. to cycle back, but

23:17

I also don't think that that's going

23:19

to lead to anything. You know, if

23:21

they had a much better offer, you

23:24

know, I don't think they're going to

23:26

offer that two months from now, but

23:28

they weren't going to offer, you know,

23:30

right now. Maybe it'll be a little

23:32

bit different mid-season, but by then, the

23:35

only way that happens is if Vlides

23:37

is in the middle of an incredible

23:39

year. And by then Blattie will be

23:41

that much closer to the agency. So

23:43

I don't really see anything changing. But

23:45

I mean, I also don't think that

23:48

there was much Ross could actually say

23:50

that would have made anybody happy on

23:52

Monday. I mean, I don't really know

23:54

how you pivot from that because this

23:56

is, you know, if anything, the Jay

23:59

should have done a. better job managing

24:01

expectations leading into this. And you know,

24:03

that's, that's, that's tricky as well, especially

24:05

if you really want to get a

24:07

deal done. But I tend to believe

24:09

Laddie that the Jay's never got close.

24:12

And if they never got close on

24:14

Monday, then they certainly weren't close, you

24:16

know, beginning of February, definitely weren't close

24:18

for that. And there has been all

24:20

this talk about a deadline, this anticipation

24:23

leading up to spring training, and it

24:25

kind of ended with a thud. Yeah,

24:27

and Vlad put that deadline in place

24:29

not just because he wants to concentrate

24:31

on the season to come, but because

24:34

when you set a deadline, obviously that

24:36

leads to one would think people making

24:38

their best offers because they understand that

24:40

they're going to lose this opportunity and

24:42

the best offer, I mean, it didn't

24:44

happen. With Shapiro, he's the one who

24:47

said doesn't matter. whether you're close or

24:49

not, it's either done or it's not

24:51

done, but the pull quote for me

24:53

was that he talked about getting emotional

24:55

about this and that the Blue Jays

24:58

moved outside their comfort zone. And I

25:00

mean, if they moved outside their comfort

25:02

zone and they were still in Vladi's

25:04

eyes not close, then somebody is either

25:06

delusional or just really putting this together

25:09

the wrong way. No? No, you're not

25:11

wrong. I mean, to me, a lot

25:13

of this, I don't have much doubt

25:15

that they did go beyond their comfort

25:17

zone. I mean, my take on all

25:19

this is that everyone else, you know,

25:22

outside, whether it's media fans, maybe even

25:24

other teams, have always been higher on

25:26

Vladimir Guerrao Jr. than the Blue Jays

25:28

actually are. And I pick my words

25:30

carefully over the years when I try

25:33

to describe that because you're not one

25:35

individual thing. that I can specifically point

25:37

to. Some of it is a bit

25:39

of a sense, but then some of

25:41

it's also, as you know, from just

25:44

going around and talking to people and,

25:46

you know, it goes all the way

25:48

back to, you know, that the... to

25:50

teach contract to be perfectly honest with

25:52

you and using that as comparison to

25:54

some people in the organization back in

25:57

the day. And I wouldn't say it

25:59

was the comp was laughed off, but

26:01

it was dismissed a lot quicker than

26:03

I certainly would have dismissed it in

26:05

terms of, you know, while, you know,

26:08

this was a shortstop and guy didn't

26:10

stick a shortstop for very long, but

26:12

they were talking about the position of

26:14

the defensive versatility of it. East versus

26:16

of Laddi. Laddi was, and then you

26:19

would get the comps of like, okay,

26:21

well, this is, but have you looked

26:23

at like how much first baseman are

26:25

paid? And essentially, this team has never

26:27

been that high on that prototype of

26:29

a player at that position. And I

26:32

don't think that that is a position

26:34

and that is a type of player

26:36

that anybody in this organization really wanted

26:38

to spend that much money on. I

26:40

mean, let's be real here. If the

26:43

Jays had signed, Juan Soto, I don't

26:45

think there isn't an offer at all.

26:47

going out to Vladimir Grado Jr. I

26:49

don't think the plan would ever to

26:51

keep the two of them together long

26:54

term. The plan was to try and

26:56

win right here right now with the

26:58

two of them. And then Vladi was

27:00

going to go off into the sunset

27:02

and play for another team. Maybe if

27:04

things went so well, the Jay's would

27:07

have offered him something on the way

27:09

out, but there's no way they were

27:11

going to sign Soto for somewhere around

27:13

$700 million dollars, then go around and

27:15

offer Vladimir Guerrero 500. the grass is

27:18

greener on the outside and they went

27:20

and they went searching for it is

27:22

essentially how it is and so yeah

27:24

I don't I don't I don't doubt

27:26

that they went beyond their comfort zone

27:29

because I think their comfort zone with

27:31

this player is a lot lower than

27:33

it would be for me you and

27:35

a lot of other people. Yeah I

27:37

agree with you and you know there

27:39

are so many conversations that we have

27:42

and so many people that we talked

27:44

to down at the ballpark and at

27:46

spring training and and around the game

27:48

and there are some information that you

27:50

get that you get that you get

27:53

that that you want to share, but

27:55

you can't, and it informs our opinions.

27:57

And there is one conversation that I

27:59

had that I can't say publicly that

28:01

really illustrates. to me their thoughts. And

28:04

it is, like you said, they just

28:06

don't value him. It feels like the

28:08

way the rest of the industry does,

28:10

the way the media does, the way

28:12

the public does. And it's a real

28:14

shame, especially you go back to Soto.

28:17

And yes, Soto gets on base more.

28:19

He's been a better hitter. He's been

28:21

to Two World Series. He's one, one.

28:23

Is he really that much better because

28:25

he can play a below average corner

28:28

outfield and get a first baseman or

28:30

a DH? He's a below average outfielder.

28:32

Is he really that much better than

28:34

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. You talked about the

28:36

grass being greener on the other side

28:38

where you're not as familiar with them?

28:41

Is he really that much better because

28:43

he can play a below average corner

28:45

outfield and get on base a little

28:47

bit more? to go throwing around $700

28:49

million at him and not being able

28:52

to, not being willing to go to

28:54

four on flat? Yeah, I mean, that's

28:56

the one that is the big surprise

28:58

to me. You know, we touched on

29:00

this a little bit before, but I

29:03

mean, Shoah O'Connor always made sense as

29:05

being a separate unique case. I mean,

29:07

nobody else does what he does off

29:09

the field in terms of marketing the

29:11

revenue that that opens up. That was

29:13

always a special case. I was really

29:16

surprised when the Jay's actually made a

29:18

strong run at Soto because I completely

29:20

agree with you. And Soto is unquestionably

29:22

in my mind, the better hitter. But

29:24

a lot of the things that I've

29:27

thought the Jay's were down on Guerrero

29:29

for, you could say the exact same

29:31

thing about Soto with the defense of

29:33

inefficiency. You know, the lack of a

29:35

long-term position for him is you kind

29:38

of touched on. So those are, you

29:40

know, the reasons why, you know, you

29:42

certainly wouldn't pay Guerrero what, what Soto

29:44

would get, but I don't know how

29:46

you offer something in the neighborhood of

29:48

$700 million to one Soto and yeah,

29:51

decide that, you know, Guerrero is not

29:53

worth somewhere in the range of 400

29:55

to 500. I mean, that seems like

29:57

a decent drop off for in terms

29:59

of. in terms of value of the

30:02

contract. So that really is the one

30:04

that surprises me. And it's the one

30:06

that makes me even more confused if

30:08

I'm being totally honest about the perception

30:10

of Guerrero within that organization. Because everybody

30:13

else knows how special he is. And

30:15

it's not like that, it's certainly not

30:17

trying to sit here and say that

30:19

the Jays don't think he's any good.

30:21

It's not that. It's, it goes back

30:23

to the question you asked in last

30:26

year's press conference with Mark Shapiro is,

30:28

is he a generational talent? Mark Shapiro

30:30

declined to name him a generational talent.

30:32

And these other got players that we're

30:34

talking about are considered to be in

30:37

that stratosphere. And the Jays, you know,

30:39

quite obviously. don't consider him to be

30:41

quite there. And so they have to

30:43

kind of plug their nose a little

30:45

bit in terms of these these last

30:48

offers. So I guess they probably did

30:50

go higher than they wanted to. But

30:52

still, it's obviously not nearly enough to

30:54

get it done. Not nearly enough at

30:56

all. And I, you know. I don't

30:58

think handedness is worth 150 or 200

31:01

million dollars, right? That's the big difference

31:03

is handedness. Juan Soto has the platoon

31:05

advantage most of the time and Vladi

31:07

doesn't. What did you think of the

31:09

fact that Edward Rogers was there and

31:12

that he was there with Soto, that

31:14

he's trying to, it feels like, be

31:16

far less detached from this team than

31:18

he's been the last? eight or nine

31:20

years since he brought in Shapiro. I

31:23

don't think it's because he's lost any

31:25

faith in Shapiro and thinks he needs

31:27

to, you know, get in there and

31:29

keep an eye on things, but what

31:31

do you think of the fact that

31:33

he's been involved? Yeah, I think that's

31:36

a I think that's actually a trend

31:38

that we're going to see a little

31:40

bit more of just from talking with

31:42

certain people. The sense I get is

31:44

I think we might start seeing a

31:47

little bit more of Edward Rogers in

31:49

the future. And I think a big

31:51

part of that. No, it doesn't have

31:53

anything to do with Shapiro. You're right.

31:55

I think it has more to do

31:58

with the fact of the current Toronto

32:00

professional sports. landscape and Rogers has obviously

32:02

been in charge of the Jays for

32:04

a long time and they've had parts

32:06

of you know the May beliefs and

32:08

raptors but now they're running the whole

32:11

she bank you know where they're taking

32:13

over and they're starting this conglomerate that's

32:15

going to own everything and I think

32:17

people around there are realizing that you

32:19

can't necessarily run a professional sports team

32:21

the way that you can a communications

32:23

company in this in the sense that

32:25

you kind of I think they're going

32:27

to realize that he needs to be

32:29

a little bit more visible. I don't

32:32

think that means, you know, Edward Rogers

32:34

is not going to turn into Steve

32:36

Cohen and suddenly doing all kinds of

32:38

media availability to all over the place

32:40

and endearing himself to the fans. But,

32:42

you know, we've now seen this with Soto.

32:44

We've seen this with Guerrero before. We'd

32:46

only ever really seen it with Alex

32:48

and Bopoulos. Yeah, I think he was

32:50

involved in Eltoni last year, but I

32:52

mean prior to this last little bit.

32:54

We had never really seen it during

32:56

the Mark Shapiro, Alexin Bupolis saga, and

32:58

then he kind of took another back

33:00

seat and kind of just let, I

33:02

mean, the way I've been thinking about

33:05

it, Mark Shapiro has essentially been operating

33:07

in the owner since the end of

33:09

2015. I mean, he has the power

33:11

essentially of ownership and he represents them,

33:13

he had represented them at least for a

33:15

very long time at owners meetings and things

33:17

like that might be something that that changes.

33:19

Whether or not that's good or not, I

33:21

mean, who knows? I don't think any of

33:23

us really know much about Edward Rogers. You

33:25

know, there's a period of time there where

33:27

I made multiple media requests to try and

33:29

talk to him and nothing ever happened. So,

33:32

you know, hopefully that will change here in

33:34

the coming months and he'll be willing to

33:36

speak a little bit more, but you're right.

33:38

There definitely has been a shift. with him

33:40

being a little bit more hands-on, and I

33:42

think we're going to see more of that

33:44

not less of it in the future. It's

33:46

interesting, and we all, I think, wonder what

33:48

sort of effect that's going to have, seeing

33:50

more of him as opposed to less of

33:52

him, because, you know, I've seen none of

33:54

him. I don't think I've ever been in

33:56

the same room with a guy, and I've

33:58

been covering this team. embedded with

34:01

the team for 20 years once

34:03

he bought it, and then now

34:05

a little bit less embedded, but

34:07

still, you know, just as on

34:09

top of things. It's interesting. The

34:12

last thing about the Vlad saga

34:14

and the front office, who we've,

34:16

you know, shared our opinions about

34:18

a few times over the course

34:21

of this winter, the fans are

34:23

upset. They've been upset for a

34:25

long time. It's okay for the fans

34:27

to be upset when the team's moving in

34:29

the right direction. It's less okay when things

34:32

are not going well. But how do you

34:34

think it's going to go over if at

34:36

the end of this season, Vladimir Guerrero

34:38

Jr. walks away, the Jays get

34:40

a second in a fifth rounder

34:42

from whoever signs him, and Mark

34:44

Shapiro gets a contract extension? Oh

34:46

my goodness. I mean, it would

34:49

be that the reception of

34:51

that would be pretty, pretty

34:53

poor to say the least.

34:55

I mean, I think I

34:57

would be at that point,

34:59

I would be pretty stunned

35:02

if it happened and maybe

35:04

it maybe it will. But

35:06

I mean, just someone's got

35:08

to read the temperature of

35:10

the room at some point. And,

35:12

you know, the sense of

35:14

anger. resentment, disappointment, frustration that,

35:17

you know, I'm sensing from

35:19

the fan base these days,

35:21

is a little bit scary to

35:24

be honest with you in terms

35:26

of if you're thinking about the

35:28

overall health of this organization,

35:31

because I think a lot of people,

35:33

you wouldn't be among these, but

35:35

a lot of people forget what it was

35:37

like before that lead up to the 2020-15.

35:40

Even before 2013, there was a brief, you

35:42

know, things started to pick up a little

35:44

bit in 2013 when the J started spending

35:46

money and there was a little bit of

35:49

a blip there and then it obviously exploded

35:51

in 2015. Oh man, there were some dark

35:53

years before that. I mean, that was kind

35:55

of the, I was at the height of

35:58

my fandom. You know, I was 10 years.

36:00

when the Jay's won their second world

36:02

series and you know, throughout my

36:04

teenage years, it was nothing but,

36:06

you know, empty Roger Center and

36:08

not much hope. And it stayed that

36:10

way for a very long period of

36:13

time. I mean, how many times did

36:15

Paul Beeson say over the years, you

36:17

know, we'll start spending money when we

36:20

start winning and the fans start showing

36:22

up. And, you know, thankfully for the

36:24

fan, The money started being spent a

36:26

little bit before that and kind of

36:28

brought the fan back through that winning

36:31

and through those expenses and really revitalized

36:33

baseball on this market. But I don't

36:35

think it's going to take much to

36:37

go back in the other direction. It

36:39

doesn't happen overnight, but I think we've

36:41

already started to see that switch, you

36:43

know, just from the people that I'm

36:45

talking to anyways. There's countless examples of

36:47

people who don't plan on going to

36:49

as many games this year, or people

36:51

who are further threatening. I'm still going

36:53

this upcoming year, but I'm not

36:56

happy. And if the, if, you

36:58

know, Vladimir Guerrero is gone and

37:00

they go into another rebuild, I'm

37:02

not watching again until blah, blah,

37:05

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So

37:07

there are a lot of people

37:09

who are doing that and the

37:11

renovations aren't going to, you

37:13

know, stop that from happening.

37:16

Nobody cares about that.

37:18

Just to show up just for that. I

37:20

mean, you're there for the environment and as

37:22

soon as people stop showing up, that environment

37:24

goes down, the casual stop showing up,

37:26

if they don't care about the team,

37:28

they're not going there for the crowds.

37:31

I just fear for that a little

37:33

bit and I don't think we're going

37:35

to see that this year. I think

37:37

we'll see a drop off in attendance,

37:39

but I don't think it's going to

37:41

get desperate this year. But I

37:43

do worry about, you know, if if

37:46

blad leaves and bow leaves and

37:48

this team is forced to go into

37:50

a much longer rebuild, you know,

37:52

what that's going to look like two,

37:55

three years down the road, because

37:57

I'm not so sure it's going to

37:59

be pretty. might start to re-evaluate

38:01

some things. I hope so. I

38:03

really do think that the only

38:06

thing that gets things, gets a

38:08

change is if tenants drops and

38:11

TV numbers drop significantly. I think

38:13

that's what will get ownership to

38:15

notice. But yeah, I mean, you

38:18

and I both lived through a

38:20

lot of 12, 11, 12, 13,000

38:22

crowds on weekday nights at

38:25

Rogers Center prior to the

38:27

resurgence. And it was... It was

38:29

a mausoleum in there. And now

38:31

there's going to be, we'll hear

38:33

the country music and we'll hear

38:35

music between pitches. So it's not

38:37

going to be as quiet as

38:39

it was. But look, the Jays

38:41

drew 2.6 million people last year,

38:43

third in the American League. And

38:45

that was because a lot of

38:47

those tickets were sold off of

38:49

the 21-23, the two playoff years

38:51

in that great team in 2021.

38:53

Now they're not. They're not a

38:55

lot to sell off of last

38:57

year, and if things don't start

38:59

well this year, I can see us

39:02

seeing crowds under 15,000 on

39:04

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday nights

39:06

in... August and September and that

39:08

just makes me sad, I think.

39:11

I think there's so much more

39:13

that could be done here. But

39:15

look, I wrote in the Star

39:17

on Wednesday that it's not ownership's

39:20

fault for spending wise, it's ownership's

39:22

fault for putting their faith in

39:24

the wrong people. And if Mark

39:27

Shapiro gets a contract extension, and

39:29

Ross Atkins is here because Mark

39:31

Shapiro is here. Yeah, it's not going

39:33

to go over well. All right, we'll

39:36

take a quick break here on that

39:38

sad note. And when we come back

39:40

a little more about what's going on

39:43

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You're in Deep Left Field. I'm Mike

42:55

Wilner quick reminder to subscribe to or

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for six months to subscribe to the

43:23

Toronto Star. And the Toronto Star is

43:26

in Dunedin with Gregor Chisholm. Rosie Domeno

43:28

will be there in a couple of

43:30

weeks. I'll be there for the end

43:32

of spring training. And Gregor is here

43:34

with us now. We've talked all about

43:37

the Vladi stuff. So let's talk about

43:39

some of the other stuff. And I

43:41

want to start with Max Scherzer because

43:43

it's got to be a different energy

43:45

from a guy like that in spring

43:48

training. What's it been like? to see

43:50

how the rest of the pictures are

43:52

reacting to him. Yeah, it. it reminded

43:54

me of 2015 for entirely different reasons,

43:56

but it reminded me of 2015 when

43:59

R.A. Dickey first showed up. When R.A.

44:01

Dickey first showed up, everybody wanted to

44:03

see R.A. Dickey up close. So, you

44:05

know, there's a lot of pictures would

44:07

gather around every, every media member who

44:10

was. you know, anywhere around the facility,

44:12

knew exactly when R.A. Dickey was was

44:14

throwing his bullpens and they wanted to

44:16

get behind, you know, the backstop and

44:18

myself included to see kind of how

44:21

the pitches moved and what it was

44:23

like to see him up close in

44:25

person, just because of how unique he

44:27

was. For entirely different reasons, it was

44:29

the exact same this week with, oh,

44:32

I said 2015, I mean, I did

44:34

mean, 2013 with R. It would have

44:36

been, yeah, anyways, yeah, the years really

44:38

blend together. But it was the exact

44:40

same thing with Max Scherzer this week.

44:43

It really was. It is the first

44:45

bullpen in particular. You know, I think

44:47

every pitcher that was on any field

44:49

was gathered around those bullpens. You know,

44:51

obviously all the starters were there. That's

44:54

not that unusual. The starters often watch

44:56

each other through other side sessions in

44:58

the spring. But that entire covered roof

45:00

area, which has, I don't know, five

45:03

to eight nouns or something in there.

45:05

and benches all kind of along the

45:07

back wall. You know, there wasn't an

45:09

empty seat under that roof and there

45:11

was all kinds of guys leaning up

45:14

against the wall watching it. And the

45:16

numbers went down a little bit for

45:18

a second one, but there was still

45:20

an awful lot of people there who

45:22

were watching it. And what you touched

45:25

on is what my takeaway was, just

45:27

how intense it was. I was really

45:29

kind of surprised by that. I mean,

45:31

his very first bullpen of the spring

45:33

started, he was ready to go in

45:36

Alejandro Kirk wasn't out there yet. And

45:38

so he's kind of moving around the

45:40

mound. He's kind of muttering to himself

45:42

and, you know, Kirk, Kirk gets there.

45:44

Like, it's not like he's not actually

45:47

angry. It's just a competitor in him.

45:49

He's kind of, and so then Kirk

45:51

shows up and he's kind of, he

45:53

was only like, you know, 30 seconds

45:55

later. Kirk shows up and shares or

45:58

sends something to the effect of, you

46:00

know, about time you, about the time

46:02

he got here or something. And it's

46:04

just like, just a little bit of

46:06

an head, you know what I mean?

46:09

Like it wasn't, it wasn't meant in

46:11

a malicious way, but just kind of

46:13

like, you know, sending a little bit

46:15

of a message that he's there to

46:17

do business and he attacked the bullpen,

46:20

you know, the exact same way. I

46:22

guess what was slightly interesting is that,

46:24

you know, that prompted a lot of

46:26

questions from us about, you know, because

46:28

he seemed to be throwing more pitches

46:31

than what most guys did. He certainly

46:33

seemed to be throwing with more intensity

46:35

than guys did. And so that prompted

46:37

questions from us, like, you know, this,

46:39

you try and push yourself a lot

46:42

harder early, you know, is this kind

46:44

of part of the course view. But

46:46

his thing is more about building up

46:48

that base before he gets to the

46:50

light hitters. before he takes that next

46:53

step. He likes to have a stronger,

46:55

so instead of going out there the

46:57

first time and just throwing 20 pitches,

46:59

and then quickly moving on to live

47:01

BP after that, he likes to do

47:04

more like 35, and repeat that step

47:06

a few times before going out to

47:08

face live hitters. It's just a slightly

47:10

different approach, but yeah, just a guy

47:13

who means business all time at all

47:15

times and that kind of matches up

47:17

with, you know, the guy that we've

47:19

seen from afar and the guy that,

47:21

you know, I've seen when I've covered

47:24

him a few times in the playoffs

47:26

when I was at MOB.com, you know,

47:28

he seemed to be very, a little

47:30

bit more laid back with the media

47:32

afterwards, but like in terms of presence,

47:35

like you really wouldn't, you wouldn't know

47:37

there's a huge difference even though this

47:39

in his, even though, in his words,

47:41

even though now he's 40 years old,

47:43

that intensity, that edge, you know, the

47:46

Blue Jays in 2015 picked up some

47:48

edge when they got Josh Donaldson, and

47:50

Russell Martin too, was like that in

47:52

his early days with the Jays. Is

47:54

that something you think that they need

47:57

and be, I hate asking two-part questions,

47:59

but is that something that's gonna matter

48:01

if he can't stay on the field?

48:03

This is a guy who's been on

48:05

the injured list five times since September

48:08

of 2023. No, I don't think they

48:10

needed it. No, I don't think he'll

48:12

be able to do it if he's

48:14

not in the mound. I mean, it's

48:16

not that they didn't need it in

48:19

the sense that like it's going to

48:21

do any harm. But I mean, this

48:23

isn't a young starting rotation. I mean,

48:25

he's surrounded by Gosman, Dureos, Basset, and

48:27

I think Bouda Francis Francis Francis Francisa.

48:30

speak to themselves historically anyways. I mean,

48:32

I don't think Max Scherzer's going to

48:34

be getting in the face of any

48:36

position player, you know, maybe if it

48:38

impacts one of his starts or there's

48:41

really something egregious, but like, I don't

48:43

know, he's here for one year, he's

48:45

a veteran guy, he's not trying to

48:47

rock the boat, this isn't the organization

48:49

that he's been calling home for ten

48:52

years. I don't think he's coming in

48:54

here to shake things up, I think

48:56

the benefits will be more in the

48:58

day-to-to-day interactions. But it's the younger pitchers

49:00

who would pick up the most from

49:03

that. And there's a very limited number

49:05

of young pitchers that are around this

49:07

team right now. And so Francis will

49:09

benefit a little bit about from it.

49:11

I mean, Manoa might benefit a little

49:14

bit a little bit. I mean, Manoa

49:16

might benefit a little bit a little

49:18

bit a little bit a little bit,

49:20

I mean, Manoa might benefit a little

49:23

bit, but he's not going to see

49:25

them. So his time around those guys

49:27

is very limited. So, but that being

49:29

said, I mean, I like guys who

49:31

play with an edge. So I certainly

49:34

don't think it will hurt. I think

49:36

it's great to have competitors like that.

49:38

He's obviously one of the all-time greats

49:40

in that regard. So I don't necessarily

49:42

know that those intangibles are going to

49:45

make much of a difference on this

49:47

team. Like I said, it won't hurt,

49:49

that's for sure. And all those young

49:51

pictures who we could have an effect

49:53

on are all hurt. So yeah, it's

49:56

going to be tough. There's you looking

49:58

at Jake Bloss and Eric Lauer as

50:00

your... 7th and 8th starters behind Yariel

50:02

Rodriguez with Adamacko now heard Adam Cloffenstein

50:04

has heard along with the the Tiedemans

50:07

and the Barreras and Murudices You mentioned

50:09

Alejandro Kirk. We've heard best shape of

50:11

his life. He came in looking a

50:13

lot different. I haven't seen any video

50:15

of him yet. You've seen him every

50:18

day. What are we talking about with

50:20

Alejandro Kirk? So I was I was

50:22

I feel like that was lightly overstated

50:24

as I came in. I had started

50:26

hearing things way back in the winter

50:29

meetings, like wait until you see Kirk,

50:31

brand new guy, brand new body. And

50:33

there was some talk of that at

50:35

the very start of camp before I

50:37

had actually laid eyes on him. And

50:40

he's noticeably slimmer. He probably is in

50:42

the best shape of his life or

50:44

I don't know, maybe the best shape

50:46

of the last four or five years

50:48

of his life. But it's not like

50:51

he's a totally brand new guy. I

50:53

mean, he looks... pretty similar to me.

50:55

I think that necessarily isn't surprising though.

50:57

I don't think Alejandro Kirk is ever

50:59

going to maintain a slender physique. I

51:02

think he is always going to be

51:04

that, you know, the honor Navarro type.

51:06

So it's great to, you know, I

51:08

think the big plus for the Jays

51:10

is that he spent more time at

51:13

the player development complex in the off

51:15

season. The fact that he, you know,

51:17

regardless of, you know, how much weight

51:19

he dropped. The fact that he is

51:21

taking his work out routine seriously and

51:24

has spent more time, it's big because

51:26

this is a really big year for

51:28

him. I mean, the catching position really

51:30

wasn't one that the Jay's had to

51:33

worry about for quite a while now.

51:35

If hurt kind of performed or got

51:37

hurt, you had Dan Jansen got hurt

51:39

or underperform, you had Kirk. You had

51:41

two capable big league starters. And now

51:44

you don't have anything like that at

51:46

all. You've got Kirk and then you've

51:48

got a huge drop off to where

51:50

it's essentially. replacement level players. No disrespect

51:52

to it. It's Tyler Eineman. He does

51:55

great work with the pitching staff. He's

51:57

a solid defender. He is a massive

51:59

liability with the bat. And so if

52:01

Kirk goes down for a significant period

52:03

of time or he underperforms, it's just

52:06

going to be yet another blow to

52:08

the bottom half of the Blue Jays

52:10

lineup that already doesn't have much debt.

52:12

So they need him to have a

52:14

big year. They need him to be

52:17

able to handle the workload. And so

52:19

I think the fact that he's rededicated

52:21

himself a little bit going into this

52:23

year and what is such a pivotal

52:25

feeding for him is certainly a good

52:28

sign for the organization overall. Yeah, it's

52:30

great. He's gonna be asked to catch,

52:32

I mean. To be a number one

52:34

catcher, it's not like it used to

52:36

be. There are no Johnny benches and

52:39

there's only one JT Real Muto, it

52:41

feels like, or Adlea Rutchman. If you

52:43

catch 120 games in a season, you're

52:45

doing something. So Tyler Heineman or Christian

52:47

Bethancourt is going to get a lot

52:50

of work either way, whether Kirk is

52:52

healthy or not. But if he can

52:54

get back to who he was in

52:56

2021 2021 and maintain that defensive ability,

52:58

it's huge for the chase. But you

53:01

mention the bottom half of the bottom

53:03

half of the lineup. Like, he might

53:05

be at the top of the bottom

53:07

half of the lineup, right? This might

53:09

be your five hitter in Alejandro Kirk,

53:12

depending on who the Blue Jays figure

53:14

out. I've always come at it, you

53:16

know, I talked about it a lot

53:18

this off-season, that the Blue Jays only

53:20

had... two top six hitters after they

53:23

traded Spencer Horwoods, but then they signed

53:25

Anthony Santander to give him three. And

53:27

this is with me thinking that Will

53:29

Wagner doesn't really have a place to

53:32

play. You can put Kirk in there

53:34

maybe, but I think the ideal blue

53:36

jay lineup has George Springer Dalton Varsho

53:38

and Andrei Cimenez hitting 789 if you

53:40

can plug in those other spots. So

53:43

the next question, I guess, is what

53:45

kind of role is there for Will

53:47

Wagner, who could be a top six

53:49

hitter? We know he doesn't have a

53:51

position, so, you know, people are talking

53:54

about him maybe being the leadoff man.

53:56

She can't have a leadoff man only

53:58

plays four days a week. And what

54:00

do you do at the top of the

54:02

order? You talked to George Springer on Wednesday,

54:04

he talked about being willing to move around,

54:07

but he's been a leadoff man for over

54:09

a decade now. Yeah, the wagier one, I've

54:11

really struggled with this one for a

54:13

few months, and you and I have

54:15

talked about this before, but that's what

54:18

made him and his trade that much

54:20

more confusing to me in terms of

54:23

not only the contract and what he

54:25

was owed and what that does for

54:27

your future, but filling second base.

54:29

seemed very questionable to me because second

54:32

base of the spots that were open,

54:34

seemingly open this off-season. Second base was

54:36

the one that I felt that's about

54:39

in terms of for the Jay's

54:41

perspective. And that's because of any

54:43

of the, you know, Addison Berger,

54:45

Joey La Perfido, Bernie Clement. Will

54:47

Wagner, the guys who were in the

54:49

mix at third base, left field, and

54:51

second base. I'm betting on Will Wagner

54:53

at second base over any of those

54:55

guys in a heartbeat. And so he,

54:58

that's where I would have slaughtered him in.

55:00

And I would have, you know, seen what

55:02

the year went with him as

55:04

your everyday second baseman. So clearly

55:06

that's not going to happen now.

55:08

And what confuses me even

55:10

more is that there's been a lot

55:12

of mixed signals about Wagner. You

55:14

know, it was back in the winter

55:17

meetings, you know, I was told by

55:19

a member of the Jay's organization that,

55:21

you know, can he play third base? Yeah,

55:23

he can play, he can play third base

55:25

in the same way that they felt that

55:28

Cavim Bizzio could play third base. So that

55:30

means, you know, maybe one or two games

55:32

a week, not a guy that they

55:35

wanted to, then this is after

55:37

they experiment, I'm talking about the

55:39

perception of how they, you, you

55:41

know, after they experimented with him

55:43

at third base. you know they turn

55:45

the page in him as a third baseman

55:47

they only wanted to put him there every

55:49

now and then and that that is

55:52

essentially the description that was given

55:54

to me by Will Wagner and

55:56

and about Will Wagner about Will

55:58

Wagner and same for Jane It

56:00

was, well, you know, he'll move around,

56:02

he'll get some time there, but it

56:04

was like very wishy-washy, which, you know,

56:06

means that they didn't have much faith

56:09

in his ability at third base. And

56:11

then we showed up the spring training. And

56:13

it's so very much that Will Wagner's in

56:15

the mix at third base and no, he'll

56:17

compete for third base. It's like, well, which

56:20

one is it guys? Because you kind of

56:22

have to pick the lane here. Because last

56:24

year they focused on him at second because

56:26

they felt that he wasn't good at third.

56:28

That stayed that he wasn't good at third.

56:31

That stayed that way for a little bit

56:33

after they got him in his and they

56:35

were talking about moving him into the super

56:37

utility role where he would get some time

56:39

at second. Then they go out and sign

56:42

Anthony Santander who, you know, takes up,

56:44

presumably sum it back

56:46

to DH and kind of complicates

56:48

that even a little bit more. So

56:50

I don't really know what to expect in

56:52

how they use him. The one thing

56:55

I will say is there is clearly

56:57

an opportunity for Wagner to force the

56:59

issue. And if Wagner hits and performs

57:02

well, then they will find somewhere

57:04

to put him on a semi-regular

57:06

basis. Maybe they'll be forced

57:08

to experiment at third base. I just don't

57:10

think that's gonna go all that well. I

57:13

mean, when I was asking Schneider the other

57:15

day about, you know, Wagner's defense on the

57:17

record at third base and he was talking

57:19

about how, you know, they would have to

57:21

look at some things in terms of how

57:23

deep they play him. Maybe they play him

57:25

a little bit more shallow. Well, if you're

57:27

already, if you need to play him more

57:29

shallow at third base because you don't think

57:31

he got the arm to consistently playing. But

57:34

if he's not going to be in

57:36

the mix for significant time at their

57:38

base, I don't know what really you

57:40

do with him, because they ruled out

57:42

the outfield, the only other spot is

57:44

DH. So I guess that could be

57:46

the scenario where you have Santond Air

57:49

playing the outfield more often than not,

57:51

and you make Wagner a semi-regular present

57:53

at the age. That's what I would

57:55

do right now, because I would want to

57:57

get his doubt into the lineup to me.

58:00

I'd probably even strongly consider him as a

58:02

Lee Off man on day one, because I

58:04

don't think that should belong to George Stringer

58:06

anymore. That would put a heck of a

58:08

lot of pressure on Will Wagner. That's the

58:10

only thing that would cause me a little

58:12

bit of hesitation there. But in terms of

58:14

abilities, and in terms of just, you're shooting

58:16

for what you think might work, Wagner to

58:18

me is the guy who should be in

58:20

there almost every day, and based on the

58:22

other bats in that lineup. It's probably be

58:24

the guy that I would hit first. If

58:26

not, then maybe even second rate behind

58:28

bow, if you want to dig bow, read

58:31

off instead. The only thing that I would

58:33

put into the scenario, and I know that

58:35

the Blue Jays are horribly reluctant to do

58:37

it, even though he wants to, put Wagner

58:40

at first and send Vlady over to third

58:42

base. I think he would love to do

58:44

it, and I think it would help with

58:46

his value going into free agency, and I

58:49

think if the Blue Jays are that concerned

58:51

about... Wagner being that below average

58:53

a third, have a slightly below average

58:55

Guerrero a third who can make up

58:57

for some of his issues with his

58:59

arm. Yeah, that's a fair point. I

59:02

don't necessarily disagree. It does just seem

59:04

a little bit absurd at the same

59:06

time to even have to think

59:08

about that moving Vladimir Grill for a

59:11

guy like Will Wagger. I mean, what

59:13

we thought might happen this option was

59:15

that, okay, maybe you can move Laddie

59:18

to third base temporarily to add

59:20

a big piece, not a, not a

59:22

rookie middle infielder who rookie

59:24

second baseman. I mean, I like

59:26

Will Wagg is bad a lot. There's a

59:28

lot. There's a lot to like there. I

59:30

don't like it. There's a full-time D.H.

59:32

bat. I think you can, you should

59:34

be, you know, putting somebody else in

59:36

that position, but that's also why I

59:38

put him a second base. And it's

59:40

just when you take the bat plays

59:42

very well at that position, if you

59:44

take him at a second base, the

59:46

bat's not going to play it well

59:48

some of the other spots. And I think

59:51

the Jays are not valuing that the way

59:53

they should. Yeah, that's a full time. mentioned,

59:56

unprompted, early in camp,

59:58

Alan Rodin, who We

1:00:00

talked to last year who had an incredible

1:00:02

year at double A and triple A. I

1:00:04

would love to see this guy take left

1:00:06

field and run with it, make Santander your

1:00:09

full-time DH. And Rodin's a guy who has

1:00:11

the on-base skills to hit at the top

1:00:13

of the lineup as well. I think he

1:00:15

gets a shot at some point this year,

1:00:17

but I would love to see him really

1:00:20

take the bowl by the horns in spring.

1:00:22

I know position players have only been there

1:00:24

for a couple of days, but what's your

1:00:26

sense on what we might see out of

1:00:28

this kid. I think you're definitely right that

1:00:31

it's going to be at some point this

1:00:33

year. I would be very surprised if it

1:00:35

happened by opening day. The sense I've gotten

1:00:37

that he's not necessarily in the mix for

1:00:40

that, but I do think he would be,

1:00:42

I think he's in the Spencer Horowitz role

1:00:44

from a year ago, in the sense that,

1:00:46

you know, as soon as there is, you

1:00:48

know, a long stretch of underperformance on certain

1:00:51

areas of the roster or once there's an

1:00:53

injury that opens things up, then he would

1:00:55

be the guy that they would turn to,

1:00:57

and My guess would be is once they

1:00:59

turned in, they probably would try and stick

1:01:02

with him. And yeah, I mean, he's got

1:01:04

a lot of play up experience going back

1:01:06

to college. He was talking to him about

1:01:08

that just the other day. It's something that

1:01:10

he's very comfortable with and something that he

1:01:12

strives to eventually become at the big league

1:01:15

level. And you know, the profile fits

1:01:17

well there. So you have to think

1:01:19

where I mean, personally, I would still

1:01:22

go with Wagner first and see how

1:01:24

that goes. But, and that would

1:01:26

require putting Santon there and in left

1:01:28

field a lot. But if that doesn't work

1:01:31

out or if they go with another

1:01:33

direction, I mean, I was very surprised

1:01:35

that Atkins single cannot. I mean, I

1:01:37

was going to ask them that question.

1:01:39

I think I asked that question every

1:01:42

spring and I'm just. Then you listen

1:01:44

to Ross, go through a list of

1:01:46

15 guys, because you can't name one

1:01:48

without mentioning 14 others. And this is

1:01:50

the first time I can ever remember

1:01:53

that he singled one guy out. That's

1:01:55

good news. If you're Alan Rodin, it

1:01:57

means that they're paying really close

1:01:59

attention. I do think the bad news

1:02:01

of that is the reason why Ross

1:02:03

had to single him out is because

1:02:05

it's not like he's overflowing with options

1:02:07

of guys that he can highly tout.

1:02:09

I mean, the more impact guys are

1:02:12

still on the minor league side. They're

1:02:14

not over on the big league camp.

1:02:16

I mean, there's not a lot of

1:02:18

prospects in camp right now that people

1:02:20

are expecting to make much noise. So

1:02:22

kind of left for down road. But

1:02:24

the organization is very high in him

1:02:26

and looking. I haven't seen him play

1:02:28

enough personally enough personally yet. but you

1:02:30

know reading up on him and seeing

1:02:33

some highlights online and looking at the

1:02:35

numbers I mean it's it's certainly easy

1:02:37

to understand why there is optimism and

1:02:39

I think he can have a Spencer

1:02:41

Horowitz type impact on this team. Yeah

1:02:43

I think they're very similar hitters that

1:02:45

way it would be great if he

1:02:47

could carve out a place to play

1:02:49

with nobody getting hurt and with Will

1:02:51

Wagner also being able to remain in

1:02:54

the lineup at the same time but

1:02:56

like you said it's really difficult to

1:02:58

have the two of them. plus Anthony

1:03:00

Santander, unless somebody gets hurt. One guy

1:03:02

that nobody has talked about all spring

1:03:04

and much of the off season, and

1:03:06

you know, with reason, because he didn't

1:03:08

earn it last year, is the guy

1:03:10

who had the best first 50 at

1:03:12

bats of any player in Major League

1:03:15

history two years ago, and that's Davis,

1:03:17

that's Davis Schneider. He had a terrible

1:03:19

year last year. And a guy who

1:03:21

wasn't highly touted to begin with and

1:03:23

everybody thought he was, well, even he

1:03:25

thought he was over his skis at

1:03:27

the beginning of his career, that first

1:03:29

month in August. Is there a place

1:03:31

for him? Even as a platoon bat?

1:03:33

I mean, second base is out now

1:03:36

with Jimenez here, so that just leaves

1:03:38

a corner outfield platoon, but Santander doesn't

1:03:40

really need a platoon mate and they're

1:03:42

certainly not gonna platoon Dalton vars show.

1:03:44

Do we see David Schneider on this

1:03:46

team? I don't as of right now.

1:03:48

I mean, maybe that changes if Dalton

1:03:50

Barshow isn't ready to start the air.

1:03:52

I mean, Dalton Barshow... to be making

1:03:54

very good progress right now. It's a

1:03:57

little hard to judge because it's a

1:03:59

throwing program that's holding him back a

1:04:01

little bit. I mean, if you're watching

1:04:03

to take BP, you'd have no idea

1:04:05

that there was anything wrong. And he's

1:04:07

certainly doing a lot of things day

1:04:09

to day that make it look like

1:04:11

he's a completely healthy guy. But he

1:04:13

is limited throwing it to day to

1:04:15

day to make it look like he's

1:04:18

a completely healthy guy. But he is

1:04:20

limited throwing it to the right. He

1:04:22

said he's ahead of schedule. The Jay's

1:04:24

have been hesitant to say that, but

1:04:26

he said that to me, that everybody

1:04:28

he's talked to has told him how

1:04:30

ahead of schedule he is. So that's

1:04:32

good news from the Jay's. I think

1:04:34

the only way that Davis kind of

1:04:36

potentially has an opening is if, you

1:04:39

know, Varcho isn't ready on opening day,

1:04:41

then you look to put me the

1:04:43

low profito in center field for a

1:04:45

little bit if he performs all this

1:04:47

string, take that job, and then you

1:04:49

have more things opening up in the

1:04:51

left field. But, you know, the one

1:04:53

that I would keep an eye on

1:04:55

in terms of making the team would

1:04:57

be Nathan Lucas, because I think the

1:05:00

Jays have, you know, you know, been

1:05:02

on high on him for a little

1:05:04

while he hasn't. You know, had that

1:05:06

really extended opportunity. He's always the guy,

1:05:08

kind of guy who comes in, it

1:05:10

seems like, late in the year. But

1:05:12

he did, he did some damage late

1:05:14

last year and I think people are

1:05:16

intrigued about him as not an everyday

1:05:18

player, obviously, but if you're going to

1:05:21

carry an extra guy on the bench,

1:05:23

he might be that guy. But, you

1:05:25

know, Davis is kind of trapped in

1:05:27

that, you know. There's a lot of

1:05:29

got there's not a lot of top

1:05:31

prospects in this organization But there are

1:05:33

a prospect that are in the mix

1:05:35

in the outfield and he kind of

1:05:37

had his shot last year I think

1:05:39

he's gonna have to prove something this

1:05:42

year before he gets another one because

1:05:44

I think the low torpedoes and the

1:05:46

Jonathan collapse haze and Even Nathan Lucas

1:05:48

might have a little bit more of

1:05:50

an inside track if there was actually

1:05:52

playing time that presented itself as opposed

1:05:54

to just a tiny bit roll And

1:05:56

all those three guys have one thing

1:05:58

that David Schneider doesn't and that is

1:06:00

handedness. David Schneider is a right. hand

1:06:03

hitter, the other three all hit left,

1:06:05

Classe is a switch hitter. Nathan Lucas

1:06:07

absolutely deserves a shot. I'm kind of

1:06:09

hoping that he's the opening day center

1:06:11

fielder if Varsho can answer the bell,

1:06:13

but it's a great update on Dalton

1:06:15

Varsho's health and status. Again, we are,

1:06:17

yeah, almost six weeks till opening day,

1:06:19

still lots of time. Gregor, before I

1:06:21

let you go and appreciate as always

1:06:24

all this time, is there anything that

1:06:26

I didn't. touch on that you've noticed

1:06:28

at camp for the first week anything

1:06:30

that's jumped out at you that you

1:06:32

feel is is worthy of mention? Normally

1:06:34

I would have something for you but

1:06:36

like I said at the start at

1:06:38

the start it's like it really has

1:06:40

been a mostly uneventful camp I mean

1:06:42

how long Rogan was was a big

1:06:45

story in the first week in terms

1:06:47

of like how much everyone was talking

1:06:49

to him so I you know that

1:06:51

that will pick up once the game

1:06:53

start and we actually start seeing some

1:06:55

actual results, but I mean, there really

1:06:57

is only so much that you're going

1:06:59

to take away from from watching bullpens

1:07:01

of guys like Boreos and Goshman and

1:07:03

Bassett. I mean, you might take away,

1:07:06

would probably be on the positive side

1:07:08

that, you know, the everyone has gotten

1:07:10

off to a mostly healthy start so

1:07:12

far. The injuries that the J's have

1:07:14

had have been limited to guys in

1:07:16

the minor leagues. I mean, nobody wants

1:07:18

to see Adamako get hurt because of

1:07:20

the damage that does to the overall

1:07:22

depth. I feel like at this point

1:07:24

in spring training, we were at last

1:07:27

year pretty darn close, we were already

1:07:29

starting to talk about, you know, Jordan

1:07:31

Romano. Eric Swanson is the exception, he

1:07:33

had something last year, he's got something

1:07:35

again this year, but he threw 10

1:07:37

pitches off of him on yesterday. He

1:07:39

started his throwing progression now, he's got

1:07:41

a long runway here to get ready

1:07:43

as a reliever. Kevin Goughman has come

1:07:45

out of his early bullpens feeling good.

1:07:48

Sure is there a same thing coming

1:07:50

off an injury? Everybody seems to be

1:07:52

feeling good right now. And the main

1:07:54

thing that everybody wants to get done

1:07:56

in spring training is you just want

1:07:58

to get your players through camp intact.

1:08:00

And so, you know, one week down.

1:08:02

many more weeks to go in that

1:08:04

regard still, but that's at least, you

1:08:06

know, a positive because, you know, the

1:08:09

Jane didn't deal with the kind of

1:08:11

injuries last year compared to the rest

1:08:13

of Major League Baseball. I mean, they

1:08:15

really didn't. But they did start off

1:08:17

on a bad note on that regard,

1:08:19

especially on the pitching staff. And so,

1:08:21

you know, that's sure there was talking

1:08:23

about how right now is the most

1:08:25

dangerous time for a pitcher as you're

1:08:27

trying to build up. because you're pushing

1:08:30

your body to do things that it

1:08:32

hasn't necessarily done in a little while.

1:08:34

And every time you go out there,

1:08:36

you're pushing it a little bit more

1:08:38

and more and more. And so the

1:08:40

fact that they've gotten through these first

1:08:42

couple of tests, in terms of their

1:08:44

side sessions, in terms of their first

1:08:46

live BPs, because the live BPs started,

1:08:48

you know, late last week, and there's

1:08:51

a lot of position players here well

1:08:53

before reporting date, well before Vladi. contract

1:08:55

situation was worked out. And so they've

1:08:57

been going through the motions now for

1:08:59

a little while and everybody is doing

1:09:01

good so far. So that would be

1:09:03

my big takeaway because everything else there's,

1:09:05

I mean, decide the road, there's not

1:09:07

much prospect that we're focusing on. There's

1:09:09

not really much prospect that we're focusing

1:09:12

on. There's not really much in the

1:09:14

way of, there's not really much in

1:09:16

the way of like huge under the

1:09:18

radar to get back. the course of

1:09:20

the spring, the George Springers and Alejandro

1:09:22

Kirk's. And Andre Ciman is the guys

1:09:24

who need to bounce back offensively to

1:09:26

help this team this year. That first

1:09:28

spring training game is Saturday afternoon against

1:09:30

the Yankees in Dunedin. And, Gregor, congratulations

1:09:33

on missing a pair of snowmageddons here

1:09:35

in Toronto, down there in Florida. Well

1:09:37

done on your part. Thank you so

1:09:39

much for this. We will be reading

1:09:41

you. We will be talking to you.

1:09:43

We will be talking to you. We're

1:09:45

just getting started on a good eight

1:09:47

months of seeing each other every day,

1:09:49

so good luck to you with that.

1:09:51

Same to you. All right. That's Gregor

1:09:54

Chisholm and we joke, but it is

1:09:56

wonderful to get back in there. with

1:09:58

the beat. We've got a really good

1:10:00

beat for the most part here in

1:10:02

Toronto of reporters, whether it's newspaper, TV,

1:10:04

radio, blogs. However, they report the news.

1:10:06

It's a good group. And we're together

1:10:08

for eight months. And you know, you

1:10:10

miss that in the winter. You miss

1:10:12

seeing everybody. You miss hanging out with

1:10:15

your little friends. So it'll be nice

1:10:17

to be back there with Gregor, with

1:10:19

Rosie, and with everybody else covering the

1:10:21

Blue Jays, covering the Blue Jays. on

1:10:23

a daily basis again. I don't know

1:10:25

if Gregor and I solved anything there,

1:10:27

but he had some tremendous insight into

1:10:29

what's going on down at camp. And

1:10:31

there are a lot of very interesting

1:10:33

things that we'll be keeping an eye

1:10:36

on, especially once the game starts on

1:10:38

Saturday when the Blue Jays host the

1:10:40

New York Yankees in Dunedin at TD

1:10:42

Ballpark. It will be wonderful to have

1:10:44

baseball back again. Even though the off-season

1:10:46

has been frustrating, it's been disappointing, feels

1:10:48

like there's been more bad news than

1:10:50

good, it'll be great to see the

1:10:52

Blue Jays playing and getting ready for

1:10:54

what's got to be a better 2025

1:10:57

than 2024 was, and I understand that's

1:10:59

a pretty low bar. That's going to

1:11:01

do it for this week's episode of

1:11:03

Deep Left Field. Thank you so much

1:11:05

for joining us. We are with you

1:11:07

every Thursday at the very least and

1:11:09

more often when Blue Jays News merits

1:11:11

it. Thank you so much to my

1:11:13

guest, Gregor Chisholm, from BlueJ Spring Training

1:11:15

Camp in Dunedin, Florida, to our fantastic

1:11:18

executive producer, JP Foso, our phenomenal sound

1:11:20

engineers, Crawford Blair, and Sean Patenden, to

1:11:22

Brian Bradley, who flips the switch to

1:11:24

get this into your favorite podcast platform.

1:11:26

Nicole McIntyre is the editor-in-chief of the

1:11:28

Toronto Star, and once again, the best

1:11:30

way you can support this podcast is

1:11:32

by spending $1. to get get

1:11:34

yourself a six

1:11:36

month subscription to the

1:11:39

Toronto The biggest The

1:11:41

biggest thank you of

1:11:43

all to to you,

1:11:45

whether it's your

1:11:47

first time time your

1:11:49

239th or anywhere in

1:11:51

between, we are

1:11:53

thrilled to have you

1:11:55

with us us we

1:11:57

hope you stick

1:12:00

around as we gear

1:12:02

up for what

1:12:04

promises again to be

1:12:06

a better season

1:12:08

for the Blue for the

1:12:10

How good it's

1:12:12

gonna be. Honestly, I

1:12:14

believe they could

1:12:16

win anywhere from 75

1:12:18

to 95 games.

1:12:21

We will see how

1:12:23

this thing plays

1:12:25

out. I'm Mike Wilner.

1:12:27

Thank you so

1:12:29

much for listening and

1:12:31

we'll see you

1:12:33

next time, right here

1:12:35

next time right here in Deep Left

1:12:37

Field. Oh,

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