0:00

Are you earning and investing in the stock

0:02

market? In real estate? How

0:04

about in relationships? Are you

0:06

earning and investing in your life? I'm

0:09

Doc G, semi-retired hospice physician and host of

0:12

the Earn and Invest podcast where we have

0:14

the 201 or next

0:16

level conversations about money and life.

0:18

Not only how you make money and grow it,

0:21

but also how you use your wealth to create

0:23

a better and more fulfilling existence. Join

0:25

us every Monday and Thursday wherever you

0:27

listen to fine podcasts. The

0:29

way we pay for things has gone

0:31

through a revolution in recent years. While

0:35

some of us may still walk around with a

0:37

wad of cash, more

0:39

and more consumer transactions are made

0:41

with credit cards and with alternative

0:44

payment systems like Venmo, Apple

0:46

Pay and even cryptocurrency.

0:50

Money in the 21st century

0:52

is increasingly digital. My

0:55

guest this time is at the

0:57

center of this competitive and fast changing

0:59

field. Welcome

1:18

everyone to Deep Purpose, a

1:20

podcast about courage and commitment

1:22

in turbulent times. I'm

1:25

Ranjay Gulati, a professor of business administration

1:27

at the Harvard Business School. Michael

1:29

Miebach is the CEO of Mastercard,

1:32

one of the world's largest payment networks.

1:35

Until 2006, Mastercard

1:38

was a privately held company owned

1:40

by the 1400 banks that issued its

1:43

cards. Miebach joined

1:45

the company four years after it went

1:47

public to direct its operations in Africa

1:49

and the Middle East. These

1:52

also held senior positions at Citibank and

1:54

Barclays bank. I asked

1:56

Michael to start us off by giving a

1:58

snapshot of his very successful career

2:00

before MasterCard came forward. Ranjay,

2:07

I spent 17 years in

2:09

banking and my last

2:11

role in banking was running a

2:13

British bank across

2:16

their African business. So

2:18

I thought it couldn't get any

2:20

better than that. You're basically responsible for

2:22

a continent, multiple lines

2:24

of business engaging with every part

2:27

of the economy and society and

2:29

I thought this is the best

2:31

possible job there is. And

2:34

then I got an offer to join

2:36

MasterCard from a previous colleague boss at

2:39

Citigroup and I

2:41

thought that was not an interesting offer initially

2:43

because who wants to be in payment? It

2:46

felt very single, it felt very one

2:48

dimensional, it felt a lot less complex

2:51

and interesting and useful about what I

2:53

was doing before in that role at

2:55

this other bank. But

2:58

through engagements back and forth, a bit

3:00

of a courting period, it dawned on

3:02

me that payments is a lot more

3:04

than what it sounds like. It does

3:06

power the economy and it was the

3:08

added complexity or the added fascination of

3:11

joining a company that's only been a public

3:13

company for four years and before that it

3:15

was an association. So

3:17

I felt like I'm joining a

3:19

very, very large startup that's been

3:21

born large. That's

3:23

kind of a weird one and a fascinating one.

3:26

So in the end I figured

3:29

let me just jump in. Technology,

3:31

it matters across everybody for businesses,

3:33

for people and so forth and

3:35

it was in Africa so I

3:37

could transport that experience and see

3:40

how to make something of it. The brief for

3:42

my boss at the time was we've

3:44

ignored a continent and I need you

3:46

to build a business here. Okay, now

3:49

that was interesting. So I said yes. Now

3:51

one of the words, as you took

3:54

this job and had Middle East Africa

3:56

in your footprint, one

3:58

of the words that seemed to show... shape

4:00

your thinking and where you were going

4:02

was inclusion. And

4:04

you really made that kind of a centerpiece,

4:06

financial inclusion as a centerpiece for what you

4:09

were gonna do in Africa.

4:12

Tell us how you came to that realization and

4:14

the role of payments and inclusion and what does that mean

4:17

to you? What did it mean to you at the time

4:19

even? The word has been used in many

4:21

different ways. So back

4:24

in banking in Africa, it

4:26

was pretty clear that as

4:28

a bank to grow, you needed to

4:31

grow your addressable market. And that goes

4:33

beyond corporate and commercial banking. There

4:36

was a significant opportunity in consumer

4:38

banking, but only the affluent

4:40

were banked in Africa and everybody else was

4:42

not. This was the mass majority. So

4:45

we were trying to wreck our brains in

4:47

banking on how to do that. But at

4:49

the time, it was all branch based banking.

4:51

How do you even reach these people? It

4:53

was the early days of something

4:55

emerging that was mobile based financial

4:57

services. So when I

5:00

moved over to MasterCard, said, okay,

5:02

we didn't even have a business. And

5:04

I said, you come late, you

5:06

have a competitor that's active on

5:09

the continent for some time, how

5:11

do you open the door? And

5:13

it was a conversation with a set of governments

5:15

who were telling me the same story I had

5:17

experienced in banking. I said, we want to pull

5:19

our citizens into the economy,

5:21

the formal economy, out of the gray economy.

5:23

And we need to give them tools that work

5:25

in a life that is non-technical.

5:28

It's ruled, there's nothing, no infrastructure. And when

5:30

people want to go and get their hands

5:32

on cash, they have to travel and walk

5:34

to get to an ATM and then there's

5:36

no way to spend it and so forth.

5:40

So we said, okay, that's the problem to

5:42

the government. If you enter a market late

5:45

and you help the government solve their problem,

5:48

maybe you can make up time. You can make

5:50

up lost time as a competitor, and that's

5:52

exactly what we did. So we try

5:54

to create a business case around that,

5:56

a proposition for consumers and small businesses

5:58

who live in rural. rural Africa. That's

6:02

how it all started. And then

6:04

it turns out it was a really

6:06

terrible business case because the

6:08

return on investment for

6:10

building these tools and putting the infrastructure on

6:12

the ground and in a world where there

6:14

was not even significant mobile coverage

6:17

and so forth was a

6:19

very long-term payback. And

6:21

the CEO of MasterCard at the time, my

6:23

predecessor Ajay Banga, he

6:26

and the board took a

6:28

view at this and said, well, Africa

6:31

is going to be the strategic theater of

6:33

the future. We have not been there. If

6:36

this is a 10-year business case, it is

6:38

okay. We need to build for the

6:40

long term because at one point in time, Africa

6:42

is going to host the most significant population in

6:44

the world. We're okay with a

6:46

10-year business case because we have many other business

6:49

cases in other parts of the world. It's a

6:51

portfolio. Michael, why don't you go ahead?

6:53

I recall a board meeting where

6:55

at the end of the board meeting, we

6:58

played Shakira's It's Time for Africa and

7:00

said, this is the time to do

7:02

this. We're going to jump in. It's

7:04

a bad business case, but it's the

7:06

right thing to do. A year later,

7:09

we were in Johannesburg in January 2012, I

7:11

think, and we were standing

7:13

in front of

7:17

a whiteboard in our office and

7:19

Ajay rode on the wall doing

7:22

well by doing good. That kind

7:24

of encapsulated that whole approach. It

7:26

made commercial sense in the long

7:28

term. We

7:30

were pulling people in. We were

7:32

empowering people and we're building whole

7:34

economies. That was the starting point

7:36

of something that then turned out to be a

7:39

strategy for the company. We

7:43

evolved it from financial inclusion, which is

7:45

a lot of very access-based, to something

7:47

that is now a push

7:49

for financial resilience. We added many more products

7:51

over time and built this all out. Today,

7:53

we can look back and we pulled in

7:55

over 800 million people into the

7:58

formal economy as a company. That

8:01

sprung off many other inclusive growth

8:03

activities that we're now involved in,

8:05

but it proves there's a strong

8:07

connection between purpose and business.

8:09

And today, when people join us, I spoke to

8:12

our interns this morning. 800 is

8:14

the cohort that joined us this year for summer. A

8:17

lot of people come here because of that work. Companies

8:37

that adopt a genuine, deep purpose

8:39

approach to their work recognize

8:42

purpose as fundamental to the firm's

8:44

very reason for being. It's

8:47

an organizing principle that shapes decision

8:49

making and binds stakeholders

8:51

to one another. Purpose

8:54

is a unifying statement of the

8:56

commercial and social problems a business

8:59

intends to profitably solve for its

9:01

stakeholders. I asked Michael

9:03

Miebach to reflect on Mastercard's purpose. So

9:07

let me first describe what we

9:09

do. We power the

9:11

digital economy. That is, I think,

9:13

a simple way to describe what

9:15

is going on. So we're in

9:17

the business of digital payments, and

9:19

we facilitate these payments, and these

9:21

payments are at the back end

9:23

of any value exchange online, in

9:25

person, broadly speaking, for the operating

9:27

system of the digital economy. Now

9:30

that's not the purpose. That's an activity.

9:33

But if you think what that digital

9:36

economy does, take COVID. What

9:38

happened in COVID? We all got

9:40

locked up. We were locked up

9:42

at home, and life came to

9:44

a standstill. Well it didn't because

9:46

the digital economy kept us all,

9:48

not all, but many people who had access to it

9:51

at least, kept us going. You

9:53

could order your vegetables online if you

9:55

so chose to do it. You could do

9:57

most things in life online. And

10:00

that is what we

10:02

ensured continued to happen. We didn't miss

10:04

a step in the digital economy during

10:06

COVID. And a lot of that is

10:09

the payments industry that made that happen. So if you

10:11

look back and said we were powering

10:13

people's lives. So from running

10:16

the digital economy, if you lift up, we do empower

10:18

people to do what they do when they wake up

10:20

in the morning, nobody says I want to pay. But

10:23

they say I want to do something. And

10:25

we make that happen because that

10:27

relatively complex process, we highly simplify

10:29

in my work. And

10:32

our brand logo, which you will remember all

10:34

hopefully is two interlocking circles. They stand for

10:36

trust. So it's going to work. And I

10:39

can trust this. I will not be befrotted

10:41

and this stuff works. So that bigger purpose

10:43

of you're behind

10:45

the whole economy and you make people's

10:47

life work, that resonates with people because

10:49

it's inherently a needed activity and people

10:51

can believe in it. And

10:54

so if you join here as a young, those

10:56

interns today, they can go home and say we're

10:58

doing something really useful at this company. That

11:01

gives purpose. Then

11:03

you go into activities like financial inclusion,

11:05

which go beyond the everyday running of

11:07

the business that in itself is already

11:10

very useful. And you pull people

11:12

in and you create a digital

11:14

economy that works for everyone. Now

11:17

that really resonates. And here

11:19

I think we've done good work in giving

11:22

that sense of purpose. I want to go

11:24

to the office every day because I do

11:26

make a difference. That is the difference.

11:30

Now how do you make everybody

11:32

out of the 30,000 people that work

11:34

here believe that? Now there's a

11:36

few ways to do that. First

11:39

of all, we all have different passions.

11:41

So when we join somewhere, we are not

11:43

an empty piece of paper. We have maybe

11:45

NGO work that we do, volunteering that we

11:48

have been doing. At school, at home, wherever.

11:51

And you come here. We've

11:54

always invested quite a bit of energy in

11:56

connecting people with their passions

11:58

here at work. So if you wanted to

12:00

continue to do that, we give you the space to

12:03

do that. We have volunteering programs, we give people time

12:05

to do that, but then we say,

12:07

well, if you get to continue to do whatever

12:09

you want to do, but

12:11

there is bigger work that we

12:13

do as a company and we do it

12:15

at great scale because we have truly global

12:18

reach. If you want to continue your passion

12:20

but also get involved in our financial inclusion

12:22

work so that

12:24

your everyday work is connected to something that

12:26

has a bigger impact beyond this business that

12:28

resonates with people. So a lot of people

12:30

raise their hand and mastercard want to do

12:32

a night job. They do some

12:35

engineering work during the day around our products

12:38

and then they want to get involved in work

12:40

related to financial inclusion in our center

12:42

which is a nonprofit fund that we

12:44

have created on the side

12:46

of our business that supports some of our doing

12:48

well by doing good work, so to say. People

12:52

love doing that. So you give them a chance

12:54

to connect to that. So

12:57

we went a step further when after

12:59

our leadership transition here in my first

13:01

year as the CEO, this was the

13:03

very dark days of COVID. We

13:06

were at a time where I

13:08

think a lot of longer term work

13:11

on sustainable growth on climate work

13:13

was pushed back to

13:15

deal with COVID and its effects. So

13:19

we said this is a good time

13:21

for us to ensure that we don't

13:23

lose sight of that. So we changed

13:25

our compensation mechanism to include an

13:28

ESG oriented component in a formulaic

13:30

fashion as we just generally run

13:32

our compensation program. If you do

13:34

well, it's going to turn out

13:36

in a pretty predictable way for

13:38

you. And we

13:40

said if you do well now and you do

13:42

well on our sustainable activities on top of that,

13:44

you're going to look even better and

13:47

it's going to work the other way if

13:49

we don't make any progress. And the goals

13:51

we had to find initially were around carbon

13:53

neutrality. It was around gender

13:55

parity in terms of pay and

13:58

it was around financial inclusion, things that are... very

14:00

close to what we do. In

14:02

our industry and the broader industry, we were

14:04

one of the first companies to

14:07

formulaeically put ESG into compensation as

14:09

well. So there's a whole range

14:11

of ways to take the purpose

14:14

that resonates, that's there, that's what

14:16

we do. We articulate it

14:18

in a simple way, build a digital economy

14:20

that works for everybody, empower

14:22

people, power economies, all

14:25

the way down to compensation. And

14:28

we always learn. We always learn on this.

14:30

Now this is a journey that will never

14:32

end because we do believe there's a deep

14:34

connection between doing the right thing and running

14:37

an inclusive growth-oriented business at

14:40

the same time creating shareholder values. They are

14:43

for us very closely related and our investors

14:45

tell us that. They like that about us.

14:48

Is there a personal story, Michael, that

14:50

you saw in Africa

14:52

or elsewhere where you realize suddenly that,

14:54

you know what I do in payment

14:56

systems and inclusion? It

14:58

really matters. I've seen this person's

15:00

life changing because of what we

15:03

do. My team and

15:05

me, we created a program

15:07

for us to all experience

15:10

how the payment solutions that we had

15:12

created would make a difference in

15:15

people's lives. So we went to Soweto

15:18

and we went into a registration

15:20

center that is designed

15:23

to hand out essentially a digital

15:25

identity to people. So along with

15:27

a digital account, so they could

15:30

receive their salaries in a digital

15:32

fashion. And the

15:34

digital identity was driven by voice rent.

15:37

So you could authenticate yourself as Rajiv's voice

15:39

or Michael's voice and it was clear that

15:41

you didn't need anything else and only you

15:43

would get the money. People

15:45

weren't getting their full salaries. It was handed out

15:47

in cash before and then maybe they got a fraction because

15:49

somebody took a cut of it. So

15:52

that was a change. But then we

15:55

wanted to speak to some people and hear their

15:57

stories. Now the center and the technology is all

15:59

very great. We were like amazed to see it work.

16:02

But then we talked to this woman and she says, come

16:04

to my house. The

16:06

house was a, it's tiny,

16:09

you know, metal sheets, the

16:11

walls, and you come

16:13

inside and it's clean and very neat.

16:16

And there was a little high top counter and

16:18

on it was a wooden box. And

16:22

that's just stood there, the wooden box. And

16:24

we said to her, well, what's

16:26

in that box? But she says, oh, let

16:28

me show you. So

16:30

she opened it up and it was

16:33

a plastic card with a chip in it,

16:35

which was the representation of her digital account

16:37

with the voice footprint. It has the MasterCard

16:39

logo and it says, this is my treasure.

16:41

That's why I put it in this box.

16:45

And I know nobody can steal it from

16:47

me because it's only my voice because, you

16:49

know, some of the members of my extended

16:51

family, money was always, you know, I had

16:53

to guard it very closely. And

16:56

this takes care of all of my worries. I

16:58

treasure it. So

17:00

we left and we felt, you know,

17:03

all that engineering work, that thinking work, investing

17:05

a lot of time and understanding how you

17:08

build a business in that context that we

17:10

didn't know before. Because we could have taken

17:12

solutions from North America, from Europe and tried

17:14

to import it and we didn't.

17:16

We build it up from the ground and

17:19

that was the proof point. That was

17:21

the proof point at the time that we're on

17:23

the right track. And we turned that experience, in

17:25

fact, into something that we have done for many

17:28

years thereafter, which is some journaling. You understand people's

17:30

lives. What is the day in the life of

17:32

somebody in Uganda look like or in Egypt?

17:35

What tools do they need? And

17:37

today you see Africa leapfrogging because they're

17:39

not held back by legacy technology. And

17:41

they're having now solutions that are far

17:44

ahead of what we have in the

17:46

West. So today the world of mobile-based

17:48

financial services is really on fire in

17:50

Africa in a positive way. And I

17:53

think we built some real muscle. So we

17:55

have a financial inclusion lab based out of

17:58

Nairobi, which informs our technology. labs

18:00

and innovation labs around the world. During

18:12

his time at MasterCard, Michael

18:14

Miebach has been a driver of the

18:17

company's transformation in the digital economy. But

18:19

it can be really hard for big

18:22

incumbent companies to move as nimbly into

18:24

the digital space as they need to.

18:27

Miebach says when MasterCard went public

18:29

in 2006, it was already ahead

18:32

of the game. And

18:34

in 2015, MasterCard established digital labs

18:37

to help client companies with

18:39

product innovation and digital transformation.

18:42

The company has been digital from

18:45

its outset. Everything we do

18:47

is technology. We didn't have manual

18:49

processes that need to be digitized.

18:51

Our challenge as a company was

18:54

in payments, rapid

18:56

technology change. So what was already

18:59

digital, there was always the next

19:01

kind of technology if we just look back the

19:03

last four or five years. The change we've seen

19:05

in the last four or five years has been

19:08

more than the 50 years before. So

19:11

you've had card-based payments on certain

19:13

technology standards, then suddenly there was

19:15

real-time payments, there was blockchain, there

19:17

was wallets, there was biometrics, there was

19:19

you name it. So picking which one

19:21

of these to invest in and

19:24

future-proofing the company for that

19:27

next wave of change and the next wave

19:29

of change, that was really our challenge. So

19:31

a colleague of mine at the time who

19:33

was the head of what we then called

19:35

emerging payments was tasked

19:38

to do that. So we set

19:40

up these labs and we gave people no

19:44

purpose in life other than you need to

19:46

innovate and look around the corner. That's the

19:48

only thing they needed to do. They didn't

19:51

have a budget to revenue deliver or anything

19:53

like that. They had a budget to spend

19:55

and we tasked them to spend it. So

19:58

that was the starting point. point of

20:01

our staying

20:03

ahead of digitization journey vis-a-vis digitizing

20:05

ourselves because we were essentially a

20:08

component to digitize our customers' business.

20:12

And imagine we serve everybody in the

20:14

world. This is the commercial bank of

20:16

Vietnam, if it exists. So that would

20:18

be one to the largest global marketplace

20:20

that is also our customer. And

20:23

one, you know, the latter one works at lightning speed

20:25

and a tiny bank in an

20:27

emerging country is at

20:30

the other end of the spectrum. So we need to be able

20:32

to do all of that. How do you do it? You

20:35

abstract a lot of the complexity of technology

20:37

into our own company. You

20:40

invest in the head of the curve

20:42

into technologies that they might not be

20:45

ready just yet to use. So

20:48

speed and it

20:51

requires a mindset of

20:53

knowing what you don't know and always

20:55

looking for what is the next technology

20:57

wave. So following the smart dollar, where

21:00

is PE money going? Who is investing

21:02

where? And being

21:04

very clear that we don't

21:06

have all of the answers, but we're a network.

21:08

You can invite others in to innovate up on

21:10

our network. So it's a

21:12

mix of all of that. That has been

21:15

our journey. I was part of that as

21:17

the chief product officer before I took this

21:19

role with my colleagues. And

21:22

that is a deeply ingrained mindset

21:25

in MasterCard today. Professional

21:27

paranoia. Look left and right and what is going

21:29

to come at us and we got to be

21:31

ahead of the curve because we powered the digital

21:33

economy. We got to use that technology. That

21:37

makes it very exciting. So I love

21:39

doing that all day long. Hi,

21:42

I'm Frances Fry. And I'm Anne Morris

21:44

and we are the hosts of a

21:46

new TED Podcast called Fixable. We've helped

21:48

leaders at some of the world's most

21:50

competitive companies solve all kinds of problems.

21:52

On our show, we'll pull back the

21:54

curtain and give you the type of

21:56

honest, unfiltered advice we usually reserve for

21:58

top executives. Maybe you have a co-worker

22:01

with boundary issues, or you want to know how to

22:03

inspire and motivate your team, give us a call and

22:05

we'll help you solve the problems you're stuck on. Find

22:08

fixable wherever you listen. On

22:12

that note, because this is kind of

22:14

like uncertainty, you know, now you're talking

22:16

about fast moving, changing, which

22:18

also the other word there is risk. And

22:21

sometimes there is also what I would call

22:23

fear, because you know, you're doing things that

22:25

are unknown, they're not going to work out

22:28

necessarily. Tell us about kind

22:30

of a specific moment or two where what

22:32

you had to do, decisions you had to

22:34

make were kind of big, bad

22:36

decisions that were kind of scary. I

22:39

mean, they could have cost you

22:41

a lot of money, a reputation and

22:45

maybe even cost you. Yeah, that's

22:47

very true. You know, you can

22:49

have 10 ideas, you should assume

22:51

that a good chunk of them don't

22:53

work out. And you know, depending

22:55

on your mindset, some people might choose not to take

22:57

that risk and rather keep doing what works really well

23:00

for them. For us to

23:02

lay off the land before we turn

23:04

to become a public company, we were

23:06

an association for 50 years that was

23:08

largely doing one thing and doing that

23:10

very successfully. Card based payments

23:12

for consumers. Highly

23:14

concentrated, but highly scaled. That

23:18

is like if you're an oil producing nation, and

23:20

that is the one thing you do and all

23:22

was always wanted, why would you diversify it away

23:24

from that? It works. So, the

23:27

risk reward trade off isn't so clear, just keep

23:29

doing what you're doing. Back

23:32

after the IPO, there was also the

23:34

pressure to deliver on the next quarter

23:36

and the next quarter, so taking risks

23:38

became even harder. But

23:41

we, you know, everything that I said

23:43

around future proofing the company, we build

23:45

out that muscle over time and we

23:47

said we are the business of taking

23:49

risks, but how to decide

23:51

which risks are worth taking versus others.

23:53

And here's an interesting Point and

23:56

it's a juncture. This was 2015-16. I

24:00

had come back from a M P maybe

24:03

a learned a lot at a M P

24:05

by the We Were, which is the advancement

24:07

program that he referred to earlier. Mp is

24:09

the Advanced Management Program at the Harvard Business

24:12

School. It's an intensive

24:14

course of study at H B

24:16

S designed to bring about a

24:18

full scale change that empowers executives

24:20

to create and the new competitive

24:22

advantage for that organizations. Michael.

24:25

Was one of my students and Mp.

24:27

We are doing a trend analysis which

24:29

we had gotten very good ads every

24:31

year we looked at where's where's the

24:34

Puck going. And we're trying

24:36

understand that. And back in two

24:38

thousand and sixteen, there was a

24:40

time where real time came became

24:42

a real round. About that time.

24:44

The Uk: One of the first countries

24:47

to have payments at a button arrive

24:49

in another bank account. Instantly.

24:51

We said that the juncture in the

24:53

road we have always been and card

24:56

payments should we get into these real

24:58

time payments which was a a technology

25:00

of his new flows that we were

25:02

not involved then. Massive.

25:04

Investments in on it worked well for

25:06

us. Why do it? And.

25:09

We. Worked for it for quite some time and

25:11

I recall going into a board meeting. And.

25:14

Pitching the idea of let's do something

25:16

that be know nothing about that was

25:18

the bitch. But it matters because this

25:21

is where of a jordy of the

25:23

payment volume today is it's a tremendous

25:25

price. We haven't quite figured out how

25:27

to get there but should we not

25:30

get into it and of course we

25:32

put we should. Fascinating how the board

25:34

conversation across the sixty minutes said be

25:36

at allocated towards spent about five minutes

25:38

on the if answer, should we do

25:41

it yes or no and to the

25:43

answer was yes. In the other fifty

25:45

five minutes was or it a how

25:47

gonna get after this opportunity fast enough

25:49

and was pretty clear that was very

25:51

risky because we didn't know anything about

25:53

it were an established economic models and

25:56

so forth said today nine years down

25:58

the line from that and mean. While

26:00

real time payments is pretty established, it

26:02

has become a reality, but many other

26:04

technologies have emerged in that same question

26:06

has repeated itself. Should be get into

26:08

block chain on boxing base Pam and

26:10

what about central bank digital currencies? Do

26:12

we need to powered up and so

26:14

forth? So we learned quite a bit

26:16

of that's at the time. I'm.

26:18

Quite a number bats have gone wrong. But

26:21

we chose the number of beds at

26:23

a given point in time. Very careful.

26:25

Lead said how much can we sustain

26:27

If this goes it, fifty percent goes

26:29

wrong. Okay, fair enough. Today

26:32

with codified our culture in in

26:34

something called a master card way

26:36

hands that has waiting three headlines

26:38

talks about creating value for customers

26:40

and us growing together. Far customers

26:43

and ah said the most Our

26:45

colleagues across the company and moving

26:47

fast. We. Took the

26:49

three headlines. For. Be spelled out

26:51

and simple: English. Or. Kind of

26:54

behaviors we should see in the company. And one

26:56

of them was. Learn.

26:58

And pivots. This. Is under

27:00

moving fast as one of the ways to

27:02

bring that to life, learn and pivot. There

27:05

are things that have gone wrong. This one

27:07

could have gone badly wrong it hasn't gone

27:09

wrong because we are now and a bunch

27:11

of payment flows that we haven't been in

27:14

before by tell you. when I walked into

27:16

a board meeting of a spy was scared

27:18

com yeah this this felt like a lot

27:20

of risk to take out by itself like

27:23

pay. You know this technology makes a huge

27:25

difference and that sort of all him as

27:27

severe to give it a go. Of

27:53

Us Leadership And you know you've

27:55

talked about this in various forms

27:57

of you've talked about not being

27:59

transactional. But having a kind of

28:01

a compassionate or empathetic leadership more

28:04

vivid you also doctor by the

28:06

decency caution to know for her.

28:08

Della. Sullivan about. Kind. Of as you have

28:10

evolved as a leader would as the most

28:13

to you is that really the Ss a

28:15

job of a Ceo. The

28:17

Decency Expulsions on since a

28:19

term that does not my

28:21

predecessor established it Missing a

28:23

means doing the right thing

28:25

and that is something that's.

28:28

The. Wrote down the cultural statement that

28:30

we try to live here every day

28:32

and I use that a lot of

28:34

find opportunities to show that yeah this

28:37

is the right thing. Were not cutting

28:39

corners as a company, were doing things

28:41

and a thoughtful way said. That is

28:43

strong element of our culture and I'd

28:46

try to. Say. To my

28:48

colleagues are in the leadership team and across

28:50

the company that that is. What

28:52

Everybody Should live. Who is a

28:54

who is a leader Here It's

28:57

one of our leadership principles but

28:59

it starts always with the person.

29:01

So the empathy parts I probably

29:03

the were on was on my

29:05

own journey as a manager, As

29:07

a leader. I think cove

29:09

it did something. And all of this the

29:11

coven pod today. I'd. Look in

29:13

the marrow and I see this was quite

29:16

a number of my colleagues. I think we're

29:18

all little more empathetic because this is a

29:20

time where the world as we knew would

29:22

stop to exist and we had to relearn

29:24

a lot of things and how you engage

29:27

and you're reading body signs wasn't a thing

29:29

anymore. The impromptu conversation to find out is

29:31

Rongi actually doing well or know that does

29:33

not a thing see had to. Make

29:36

an effort to understand and to listen

29:38

on to seal what is going on

29:40

and I I think that empathy part

29:42

was a later stage. can of boost

29:45

came for the wrong reason. I don't

29:47

I think we could have all down

29:49

without cove it but. I.

29:51

Feel there's more a more empathy and Mastercard

29:54

uncertainty and me as well. And it's comes,

29:56

it comes back and spade if you really

29:58

recognize the per than as the person. On

30:00

the other hand, it it sounds very motherhood,

30:02

an apple pie. but it it does make

30:05

a huge difference. Michael. Points out

30:07

the for many of us, our

30:09

new highly remote work environments have

30:11

a downside. Empathy has

30:14

become more challenging. Connections.

30:17

Take a more concerted effort. We.

30:19

Don't bump into each other by the water cooler.

30:22

Or. Chat in the hallway after the

30:24

meeting the way be used to. He

30:26

has to be very purposeful about wanting

30:28

to understand and wanting to be empathetic

30:31

because Video has the. The. Downside

30:33

of reducing you to be very transactional.

30:35

I'm not gonna do a video call

30:37

with urology to ask you how you

30:40

are. It's generally for a purpose, so

30:42

I think it's very important for us

30:44

to make sure and that's something we

30:46

push for and accompany. We're better together.

30:49

They're. Not so funny, that right

30:51

balance of. Taking. The

30:53

positivity of empathy know the things

30:55

that we have learned more so

30:58

over last three years but also

31:00

taking some the flexibility aspects that

31:02

we have also started. Appreciated the

31:04

out being able to juggle between

31:06

home and office and so forth

31:08

so empathy more of a leads

31:10

later even bigger inside how that

31:12

makes a difference And you know

31:15

if someone will say that, How

31:17

do you balance empathy with accountability?

31:19

You. Know I want be empathetic, but I also

31:21

need to hold you accountable. right? And

31:24

some lead a struggle. with that. You know

31:26

they feel that somehow. Empathy

31:28

makes and weaker and harder for

31:31

them to. Be. Able to

31:33

hold others accountable for what they need to

31:35

get done. I think

31:37

as a leader empathy you understand

31:39

the other person better Why people

31:41

are a success. For less successful?

31:43

What What dries them to. Be

31:47

more successful at a certain period

31:49

of time. All that I think

31:51

does help the accountability side of

31:54

things. I think

31:56

he can be empathetic but still phone

31:58

up to join goals. and what you

32:00

want to achieve. And, you

32:02

know, if you say, this is what we want to do,

32:04

and if we don't

32:06

get there, well, you

32:09

know, if you have made an effort to

32:11

understand each other, you can understand better why

32:14

that has not been the case. But

32:16

also, you can pass the tougher

32:19

message in a somewhat more caring

32:21

but still very candid fashion. I

32:23

think hiding behind distance is not

32:25

going to allow you to give that message because

32:28

the message is generally not one of, okay, this

32:30

hasn't worked, this is the end of it. Generally

32:32

the message is, okay, this hasn't worked, what do

32:34

we learn from it, and how do we do

32:37

this better the next time? And

32:39

empathy for that is really helpful. When

32:41

you give strong feedback and you do

32:43

it in a way that is caring

32:46

but candid, that's a pretty good formula. And

32:48

I certainly feel that works. I

32:52

think what helps is, how does,

32:54

you know, all of this live

32:56

in an environment where people feel

32:58

the need and the right

33:01

and the freedom to say what they mean. So

33:04

even that tough message also

33:06

is being said. So psychological safety in

33:09

a team environment as a leader creating

33:11

that, I think that's really important, particularly

33:14

in very fast-changing worlds with a lot

33:16

of tech changes around us. Imagine

33:19

there's somebody at the table that

33:21

sees the risk coming and feels

33:23

not compelled to say something because

33:26

it might not be thought through or it

33:28

might trigger a conflict with somebody or so

33:30

forth. So empathy

33:34

being candid, all in

33:36

the context of psychological safety, speak

33:39

up. That's the best

33:41

way to get through these somewhat complex

33:43

times. Behind

33:56

Every business leader, there is a story.

34:00

A life journey with mentors

34:02

and zillion moments that shape

34:04

and inspire them. I. Asked

34:06

Michael Me back to share some

34:08

of the T experiences and sources

34:11

of inspiration that made him the

34:13

person and a successful Ceo that

34:15

he is today. So. Does.

34:17

The since might hear a trace

34:19

of an accent. So I grew

34:22

up in Germany and I grew

34:24

up in on everything is good.

34:26

contacts middle class family there is

34:28

no problems. That was not any

34:30

big crucible moment in my growing

34:33

up during high school age. And.

34:36

Them I had the opportunity to

34:38

leave that environment for a year

34:41

to be has an exchange student

34:43

outside of Germany in Michigan. Midwest.

34:47

Usa back in Nineteen Eighty Four.

34:50

And them my host family you have

34:53

decided to take on this guy from

34:55

Germany said. There. Were not being

34:57

paid for it or anything. that is if

34:59

they hadn't. Not. Traveled outside of

35:01

missing in much the i think a

35:04

few trips to Florida and suddenly there's

35:06

this foreign are and it beats me

35:08

today why they decided to do that.

35:10

But you know, show up and it

35:12

turns out this family. Financially.

35:15

They. I was

35:17

a low stress tear in there, so

35:19

disturbing commitment to do this and suddenly

35:22

I'm from this everything works well kind

35:24

of environment in a totally different cultural

35:26

setting and in a family that had

35:28

to make it work financially. And.

35:33

That. Gave. Me:

35:35

a very different perspective on life.

35:37

It I think was fairly narrow

35:39

and I came back and said

35:41

wow. The. World can be entirely

35:44

different. so when i

35:46

see where started to go to university

35:48

i wanted to go far away and

35:50

experience yet something else because clearly there's

35:52

a lot else out there then i

35:54

started to work and i started work

35:56

in an american company citigroup at the

35:59

time and city And this is

36:01

not again a crucible moment,

36:03

but it's a series of things

36:05

that Citi does in their culture.

36:08

They want to make sure that their

36:11

talent gets many different opportunities.

36:14

In 14 years at Citi, I had like 12 jobs,

36:17

investment banking, consumer banking, commercial banking,

36:20

front office, middle office, back office,

36:22

different countries, and so forth. And

36:25

I think that journey from

36:28

the exchange student experience to

36:30

wanting to learn more and

36:32

then having the zigzag career, things

36:35

like that, it was just how they did it and I

36:37

loved it. I

36:39

think that makes me today a fairly curious person

36:42

and we try to do the same here at

36:44

MasterCard. I was just saying the

36:46

exact same thing to our interns this morning. I

36:48

said, guys, you can take charge of your career.

36:51

Take every opportunity you can get to learn

36:53

something else. I think that's

36:56

the journey. So today in this fast

36:58

changing world where I'm at the helm

37:00

of this company, being curious and

37:02

understanding what else might be coming, I think it

37:04

goes back all the way to Michigan. That's

37:07

a great story. Thank you. You

37:10

know, Michael, as you think

37:12

about looking forward, you know,

37:14

we have economic uncertainty, political

37:16

uncertainty, social uncertainty. What

37:19

do you think is going to be

37:21

the hallmarks of successful leaders in the

37:23

future? I heard curiosity

37:26

is one huge hallmark. You've

37:29

talked about a few others. What do

37:31

you think leaders need to really cultivate

37:33

to take on what lies ahead? We're

37:36

going through major turbulence in a range

37:38

of dimensions. I

37:42

think a certain

37:44

level of humility is going to be

37:47

essential. Accepting

37:49

that you don't have the answers, because

37:51

it's very hard to predict where things

37:53

are going to go in that world,

37:55

accepting that you don't have the answers,

37:59

which should put you in

38:01

a position to get

38:03

a diverse set

38:05

of thinkers and experiences around

38:07

a table that set

38:09

you up as a company to do

38:13

a slightly better job in predicting

38:15

what might happen and look around

38:17

the corner. So but

38:19

it starts with this acceptance of we don't

38:21

have all of the answers. You

38:24

know seeing the broader impact

38:26

that the business can have beyond

38:28

the next quarter. Longer term thinking

38:30

I think is important and

38:33

therefore make longer term decisions

38:35

that don't meander with the

38:38

rapid changes that are there. And

38:42

I think the best way to do this is to

38:44

find contributions that a business can

38:46

have that goes beyond the immediate P&L

38:49

to broader society and community. And you

38:51

know this is not wopeness. This is

38:54

really insulating your business from

38:56

shorter term swings as to seeing you

38:58

generally adding value as a company. I

39:01

think that's that's very critical. Longer

39:04

term thinking, humility. I think

39:07

this aspect of that

39:09

we touched earlier on psychological safety,

39:12

creating an environment where

39:15

different views can be articulated to make sense

39:17

out of that complex world and people will

39:19

have these different views. Those are

39:22

the top three I would say will matter

39:24

in a world like that. But

39:26

you know who knows what matters in a couple of

39:29

years but that's what I can see now. Very

39:31

good. Michael look

39:34

as your former professor my wish

39:36

for you is you go down

39:38

as another legacy CEO you know

39:40

who left a lasting mark at

39:42

MasterCard. You know whose fingerprints

39:45

will touch this organization long

39:47

after you've left. What

39:50

do you hope will

39:52

be your legacy at MasterCard? I know

39:54

you're not thinking about that at this

39:56

stage but what are the kinds of

39:58

things you're trying to do? that you believe

40:01

are going to be transformative for

40:04

this business? Right. So

40:06

I think the purpose of what this company

40:09

does, I think, will be around

40:12

for a long time because value exchange, people have

40:14

done this from the days of barter. So

40:17

I think we're on fairly solid ground

40:19

with that. But

40:21

this is a value exchange, reimagining

40:24

that and how an economy is

40:26

powered will be reinvented with

40:29

increasing frequency. So

40:32

the best thing that I can do that my

40:35

team and me can do today for the next

40:37

set of leaders who will run this company is

40:39

future-proof it for the next period of change. So

40:41

whatever we think, if we were to say, oh,

40:43

we're all going to do this another, yeah, whatever,

40:46

call it 10 years, then that's not

40:48

the end point. We've got to look

40:50

20 years out and see

40:52

what do we have to do today. If

40:56

you look at the success of the company today, a big

40:59

part of the success is what leaders

41:03

10, 20 years ago have done in this company.

41:05

And I think that's the kind of mindset that

41:07

we have. We cannot be short-term because think ahead

41:10

and look that far out. I got the

41:12

exact same question from one of our interns

41:14

this morning. And I said, you know, I

41:17

want to leave. And with

41:19

Hanon Hart say this company is

41:22

future-proof for the next five

41:24

years or so, depending on how fast technology will

41:26

change at that time whenever that might be, I

41:29

think that's the key thing. If we

41:32

at that time we say, well, you know, EPS

41:34

hasn't grown by XYZ and the stock

41:37

capital market cap has improved by XYZ,

41:39

that's all important. But

41:41

it could just stop that day. So I

41:43

think we need to future-proof the company beyond

41:45

that and have good performance. Thank

41:55

you. I

42:06

wrapped up my conversation with Michael Meebak by

42:08

asking a bit more about his experience in

42:11

the Advanced Management Program at the Harvard

42:13

Business School. It's an

42:15

intensive program where students live on campus

42:17

for as long as seven weeks. Graduates

42:21

of this life-altering experience leave better

42:23

prepared to lead their organizations and

42:25

handle the toughest strategic challenges they

42:28

may face. What

42:30

did you learn? You know, you went away

42:32

for seven weeks and came to Harvard. You

42:35

were already a senior leader, handpicked to come to

42:37

the AMP. What

42:40

did you come back with? What toolkit,

42:44

arsenal, what did you come back with when

42:46

you were away and you came back? I

42:49

came back with more critical

42:51

thinking. So

42:54

during AMP, we learned to

42:56

question things in a different way because

42:59

we're out of the context that we were

43:01

in every day in our different jobs. And

43:03

you could just see there was Mary and

43:05

Harry and Michael, and we were all thinking

43:08

in a particular way that we were conditioned.

43:10

And AMP breaks that open, and you start

43:12

to think, well, this other guy is asking

43:14

these questions and you're doing case studies, and

43:16

then somebody takes a totally different

43:19

angle at a particular question that

43:21

was on the table. Thinking

43:23

how people thought about them in a very different

43:25

way, I think that just broke

43:27

something up that was maybe over time got a

43:30

little hardened as you do things

43:32

in one way. It

43:34

sounds very big, but it was just a

43:36

bit of a rejuvenation where

43:39

you were going back maybe five, 10 years

43:41

where you were asking more questions. There

43:44

was also a personal life aspect to

43:46

this. When

43:48

at that age, this was

43:51

2014 for me, when

43:53

at that age are you

43:55

totally extracting yourself from your

43:58

life for seven weeks? For

46:03

more of my conversations with leaders in the

46:05

business world navigating the 21st century

46:08

business environment, visit my

46:10

Deep Purpose website. While

46:12

you're there, you can also find out about

46:14

my book titled Deep Purpose. Companies

46:18

that are serious about establishing and working

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towards a deep purpose find that it

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delivers game-changing results for the workers, the

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shareholders, and the larger society.

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So visit with me at

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deeppurpose.net. This

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podcast is produced by David Shin and

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Stephen Smith with help from

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Jen Daniels and Craig McDonald. The

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theme music is by Gary Meister. I'm

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Ranjey Gulati. Thanks for listening.