0:11

I'm Kyle Newport, and this

0:13

is is Deep the

0:15

show about cultivating a deep life

0:17

in a distracted world. in a

0:19

distracted world. I'm here

0:21

in my d Deep Fork HQ. No

0:23

Jesse today. I I have

0:26

an unexpected medical procedure coming up

0:28

that was going to conflict with

0:30

our regularly scheduled recording time. So

0:33

I figured I would just get on

0:35

the mic early and get this episode

0:37

in the the mic I was still operating

0:39

at a full can It is hard, at

0:41

I have learned. It is hard, I have to

0:43

record the podcast without Jesse, in

0:45

addition to his presence on the mic.

0:47

He also does all the technical

0:49

aspects of the show. This is true.

0:52

This is true. What hearing now

0:54

is my third

0:56

attempt. recorded to get this I have I have

0:58

two failed attempts before this. So this. we all miss we

1:00

all miss you and can't wait for you to

1:02

come back. come back. Quick, I guess, I

1:04

guess, I'm timely note, I'm recording this after

1:06

Thanksgiving, so we're in that sort of

1:08

Black Friday. Black Friday, Cyber Monday, sort

1:11

of extended period of

1:13

online online purchasing. So I

1:15

would be remiss if I didn't suggest

1:17

you consider buying my book Slow I

1:20

believe on Amazon it's discounted. I I know, don't

1:22

I know, saw that somewhere. I saw that

1:24

somewhere. quick inducement. Last

1:26

week I mentioned it had been named by been

1:28

named as one of the best books of

1:30

as one of the best This week I can announce

1:32

it also made it to it also made it to

1:34

We Love List for 2024. 2024. So the best books

1:36

of the year list are are piling which means

1:38

you should pile this book onto your gift

1:41

list. I'm a terrible marketer, folks. I don't

1:43

know why I drive this. Anyways let's let's get

1:45

into it because without Jesse, I just just

1:47

want to. rock and roll. got a good show. a

1:49

good show. to dive into a dive into a

1:51

new law about social media and try to extract

1:53

some general lessons from that about technology in

1:55

our lives. We our got some cool questions and

1:57

at the end of the show, I will be

1:59

doing. be doing. the books I

2:01

read in November. All right, so

2:03

let's get started with our deep

2:05

dive. Just the other day Australia

2:07

passed the law, the first in

2:10

the world of its kind, to

2:12

ban social media for children under

2:14

16 and to offer stiff fines

2:16

to social media companies if they

2:18

don't put in the right safeguards

2:20

to make this ban possible. I'm

2:23

going to get into this law

2:25

today. I'm going to go through

2:27

the main arguments from both sides.

2:29

So I will quote a key

2:31

player both for and against this

2:33

law, and we will go through

2:35

these arguments together piece by piece,

2:37

and then we will conclude where

2:39

I stand on this or similar

2:41

types of legislative action. The final

2:44

part of this deep dive, I

2:46

will then connect what's going on

2:48

in Australia with all of our

2:50

general struggles to control the role

2:52

of technology for better or worse

2:54

in our lives. All right, let's

2:56

start with some details. I'm going

2:58

to read a couple quotes from

3:00

a recent CNN article about the

3:02

law, just so that we are

3:04

all starting from the same page

3:06

with information about what's going on.

3:09

So let me read here. Australia's

3:11

Parliament has passed a world first

3:13

law banning social media for children

3:15

under 16, putting tech companies on

3:17

notice to tighten security before a

3:19

cutoff date that's yet to be

3:21

set. Under the new law, tech

3:23

companies must take reasonable steps. to

3:25

prevent underage users from accessing social

3:27

media services or face fines of

3:29

nearly 50 million Australian dollars, which

3:31

is about 32 million US. It's

3:34

the world's toughest response yet to

3:36

a problem that has seen other

3:38

countries impose restrictions but not hold

3:40

companies accountable for breaches of a

3:42

nationwide ban. The ban is expected

3:44

to apply to Snapchat, Facebook, Instagram,

3:46

Reddit and X, but that list

3:48

could expand. All right, so that's

3:50

just a quick summary. A couple

3:52

other points. The bill was backed

3:54

by most members of Australia's main

3:57

opposition party, which is the Liberal

3:59

Party. It does have some opposition,

4:01

including some fierce opposition from independence

4:03

and some of the smaller parties,

4:05

including the Greens. In terms of

4:07

the Australian. it has pretty large

4:09

majority support. All right so a

4:11

strong social media ban for users

4:13

under 16. Let's start for the

4:15

arguments in favor. So the best

4:17

summary I could find about the

4:19

arguments in favor of this bill

4:22

came from a quote from the

4:24

Prime Minister of Australia Anthony Albany's

4:26

who in that same CNN article

4:28

I mentioned before said the following.

4:30

We know that social media can

4:32

be a weapon for bullies. a

4:34

platform for peer pressure, a driver

4:36

of anxiety, a vehicle for scammers,

4:38

and worst of all, a tool

4:40

for online predators. This sentence packs

4:42

in a lot of different arguments,

4:44

so it's worth briefly unpacking into

4:47

its constituent parts. So first of

4:49

all, he's talking about social media

4:51

being a weapon for bullies. So

4:53

what's being captured here is that

4:55

there is something about the pseud

4:57

anonymous communication that happens through

4:59

these platforms, where you're talking to sort

5:01

of visual digital abstractions of individuals, typically

5:04

just through text, not actually interacting with

5:06

real flesh and blood individuals who are

5:08

in front of you, who you could

5:11

see and read their body language. feel

5:13

the full force of social capital cost

5:15

of what you're saying. It's pseudo anonymous,

5:18

it's abstract, it's digital. We know as

5:20

anyone who has spent any time looking

5:22

at, say, political discussion online knows, this

5:25

leads to a lack of the standard

5:27

interpersonal inhibitions that typically structure our interactions

5:29

with other humans, and it can really

5:32

lead to extreme behaviors, it can lead

5:34

to behaviors that in person be considered

5:36

really antisocial, and among adolescents, a young

5:39

adolescents and pre-adolescence who are very sensitive.

5:42

two social interactions. Social media based

5:44

platforms online interactions can really lead

5:46

to bullying or all sorts of

5:48

sort of think of it as

5:50

verbal, I don't want to say

5:53

violence, but negative outcomes. All right.

5:55

It's a platform for peer pressure.

5:57

He's I believe what he's alluding

5:59

here is the fact that pre-adolescence

6:01

and adolescents are very vulnerable to

6:03

groups and peer pressures and there

6:06

is a lot of niche online

6:08

communities that can be very persuasive.

6:10

Their brains aren't used to the

6:12

persuasiveness of these online communities and

6:14

it can push them into weird

6:17

or destructive behaviors. What we have

6:19

to think about that these online

6:21

communities is that you have this

6:23

sort of digital competition. that

6:26

is being mediated by curation algorithms and

6:28

engagement-driven metrics, which it says if you

6:30

have hundreds of thousands of small weird

6:33

cultish-nish groups all competing in some giant

6:35

American Idol-style competition, and those that are

6:37

the most compelling win. So now when

6:40

you're the 13-year-old, and you're on TikTok

6:42

and kind of browsing things, you're on

6:44

Instagram sort of browsing things. It's not

6:47

just that you're going to find yourself

6:49

in the niche communities that are going

6:51

to sort of suck you in and

6:54

maybe change your behavior in drastic ways.

6:56

But you're being subjected to the A

6:58

team, the all-star team of niche cultish

7:01

communities, because just the fact that you

7:03

were being shown them in your feed

7:05

means that they have survived these algorithmicly

7:08

mediated tournaments. So it's used to be,

7:10

hey, maybe you ran into a weird

7:12

crowd or a cult at the airport

7:15

when you're growing up. Now it's like,

7:17

no, we've scoured the country to find

7:19

niche communities that are most effective at

7:22

grabbing people's attention, and this can cause

7:24

lots of problems. Like one of the

7:26

issues that these niche communities has exacerbated

7:29

in pre-adolescence and adolescents we know is

7:31

eating disorders. You can fall into these

7:33

communities that are very compelling and very

7:36

much glamorize very dangerous eating disordered eating

7:38

behavior. Some of the small number of

7:40

very powerful lawsuits right now that have

7:43

been waged against meta are specifically aimed

7:45

at the damage caused by eating disorder

7:47

communities online and what it did to

7:49

kids. There's a lot of other things

7:52

as well. A driver of anxiety, the

7:54

evidence here is clear. I've read the

7:56

over the counter evidence over the counter

7:59

to the counter evidence over the counter

8:01

the counter evidence. We have multiple independent

8:03

streams of data that exactly matches self

8:06

reports. You cannot ignore self reports. That's

8:08

probably the strongest. That's probably the strongest

8:10

signal of all that heavy social media

8:13

use among young people makes more anxious.

8:15

There's a lot of drivers for that,

8:17

including these other issues that we're mentioning

8:20

here. The scammers and online predators. This

8:22

seems to be a real focus if

8:24

you read the press coverage in Australia

8:27

around the bill because it's the most

8:29

concrete. When you put

8:31

people on a pseudo anonymous open access

8:34

global conversation platform, bad people are going

8:36

to find the kids on there. Right.

8:38

It's like letting your kids free at

8:41

2 a.m. at the port authority. Like,

8:43

hey, most people there are probably pretty

8:45

normal, but there's the weirdos, and they're

8:48

probably going to find you, especially if

8:50

you're walking around looking like a little

8:52

bit clueless. So because of this, we

8:55

are getting, yeah, online predators predators is

8:57

kind of obvious, the scamming things becoming

8:59

a real issue. There's

9:02

been a slate of suicides, for

9:04

example, recently that comes from these

9:06

sex exploitation scams, where the scammer

9:09

will meet you online and get

9:11

you through various platforms to send

9:14

them compromising or embarrassing video or

9:16

photos, and then they see, we're

9:18

going to send this to your

9:21

parents unless you give us like

9:23

$60,000. Kids can't handle that, and

9:25

they feel trapped, and terrible things

9:28

happen. So it's very dangerous. that

9:30

put people who are young into,

9:33

again, an open access global studio

9:35

anonymous conversation platform. So everything that

9:37

the prime minister is arguing here,

9:40

I think every one of these

9:42

is actually like a real valid

9:44

point and a real valid concern.

9:47

There's some hysteronics sometimes when we're

9:49

talking about technology and kids. This

9:52

seems not that. This list of

9:54

issues, I'm like, yeah, this is

9:56

a solid list of real issues

9:59

that have real harms. that come

10:01

from kids or young adolescents using

10:03

social media. All right, so what

10:06

is the opposition saying? So we

10:08

have some quotes here. I'm gonna

10:11

pull from, I found the best

10:13

summary of the opposition came from

10:15

an AP article I found that's

10:18

sort of summarizing what the various

10:20

opposition said. All right, so let

10:22

me quote this. Critics of the

10:25

legislation fear that banning young children

10:27

from social media will impact a

10:30

privacy of all users who must

10:32

establish they are older than 16.

10:34

Opponents also argue the bandwidth isolate

10:37

children, deprive them of the positive

10:39

aspects of social media, drive them

10:41

to the dark web, discourage children

10:44

too young for social media to

10:46

report harm, and reduce incentives for

10:49

platforms to improve online safety. All

10:51

right, there's some legitimate arguments here.

10:53

I'm going to take these one

10:56

by one. How do

10:58

we know who kids are? All right,

11:00

there's a couple arguments surrounding this. One

11:02

is this a technical argument. This is

11:04

really what the social media companies are

11:06

pushing. They're saying this is too hard.

11:08

It's not really our responsibility. We don't

11:10

know how to do this. You're not

11:12

being clear enough. I would say this

11:14

is the main lobbying pressure point they

11:16

applied in Australia, which was the

11:19

companies. We don't want to argue

11:21

about the harms or lack of

11:23

harms, but we need more time

11:26

and more studies basically trying to

11:28

slow walk the bill because we

11:30

don't know technically how to do

11:33

this. And so don't don't give

11:35

us these technical demands and just

11:37

say do it or we're going

11:39

to find you 50 million Australian

11:42

dollars. So they're trying to slow

11:44

walk. Slow walk. bills that have

11:46

regulatory teeth until you can do

11:48

enough type of controls or options

11:51

on your own that people will

11:53

feel like, I think they have

11:55

enough stuff in place now, we

11:57

don't need laws. The

12:00

other concern about this is the

12:02

privacy concerns. It's a little confusing.

12:04

In the US, some of the

12:06

advocacy groups that are pushing these

12:08

concerns are also heavily connected to

12:10

the social media companies themselves. There's

12:12

a lot of complicated backstory when

12:14

it comes to who's arguing what,

12:16

but let's just take the concerns

12:18

in abstract and separate them from

12:20

who's pushing them. So there's a

12:23

privacy concern. Forget the kids. I

12:25

now as an adult have to

12:27

prove that I'm 16 or older

12:29

and that's a privacy concern. What

12:31

do I have to upload my

12:33

license and show a social media

12:35

company? Now a social media company

12:37

knows who I am and now

12:39

I guess they can track what

12:41

I'm saying or they can punish

12:43

me in like the real world

12:45

for things I'm saying online so

12:47

there's privacy concerns around it. Ultimately

12:49

I think these are solvable issues.

12:52

There's a couple different ways to

12:54

think about it. One is there's,

12:56

and this is what the Australian

12:58

legislatures are doing, it's a rip

13:00

the bandage. Like, look, you got

13:02

a year, figure something out good

13:04

enough. That often tends to work.

13:06

I think there's many examples of

13:08

regulation of this general flavor that

13:10

have some sort of technical complexity

13:12

that is eventually solved. We just

13:15

say, look, you have to do

13:17

it. And something is solved. It's

13:19

imperfect, but something is solved. It

13:21

should be said there are in

13:23

the American. Web-based services that have

13:25

to do things like this, so

13:27

notably in multiple U.S. states, pornographic

13:29

websites have to do various types

13:31

of age verification, has not led

13:33

to as big of privacy arguments

13:35

because I think there's not as

13:37

big of a lobbying effort to

13:39

protect those sites. Let me tell

13:41

you my preferred solution here, so

13:43

I do think, from a technologist

13:45

standpoint, The approach of saying

13:47

the the sites and apps need the age gate,

13:49

I actually don't think that's right. I don't think

13:52

that's the right way to do this. There is

13:54

privacy and technical concerns are those are fair points.

13:56

I actually think the right way to do

13:58

This is at the operating

14:00

system level. level. So

14:03

my proposal. my And I've talked

14:05

about this before in various about this before

14:07

in My proposal is My What

14:09

is what is something we know is

14:11

someone under we can't do? under 16

14:14

They can't go go buy

14:16

an iPhone. and set up up. service

14:19

cellular service for that iPhone, right? That That we

14:21

know an adult does. does. These

14:23

13-year-olds who have phones and they're using the

14:26

phones to go on Instagram or to go

14:28

on TikTok or to go on The one thing

14:30

we know is their we know set up that phone

14:32

for them. up You can't sign contracts, can't sign you

14:34

you don't have the money for it, you can't

14:36

have a cellular the money for it, you can't So I think

14:38

that is actually So I think that is point for

14:40

age verification. for age And

14:42

I think it is I simple as this. as this.

14:46

When you add a a phone set up

14:48

a plan or add a phone to

14:50

your plan as the owner of

14:52

this plan, the person who the this

14:54

name is in, who the plan's just specify you

14:56

just or above 16 phone. 16 or

14:58

above 16 phone. A single bit.

15:01

We We trust you you can lie.

15:03

you can lie. Fine. doing any more not

15:05

doing any more verification. There's no

15:07

government. There's no government documents There's

15:10

no photos, there's no looking at your behavior.

15:12

Just Just this phone is for a kid, phone

15:14

is this phone is for an adult. is

15:17

for And then if that kid gets older, they

15:19

can change that, the same place they can change that, the same

15:21

the credit change the credit card you

15:23

use for your Billy. Now system just has a

15:25

single bit. just has a single bit.

15:27

Any wants? can query

15:29

query the phone and say is this someone who is

15:31

16 and older or not and they get one

15:33

bit yes or no? or no. I

15:36

I think that's gonna solve,

15:38

that That gives you there. there. There's

15:40

no privacy concerns here. Technically,

15:42

it's it's pretty straightforward. from an an standpoint,

15:44

it largely works. it largely works. can

15:46

lie. can lie. But so they can do

15:48

that with any of can do that with any of

15:51

these bands. an account up an account it to it to their

15:53

kid, give them their password to use. to use. But this

15:55

is simple. It gets rid gets rid

15:57

of privacy issues. It gets rid of

15:59

technical concerns, right? now. all these websites have

16:01

to do is just access, make an

16:03

OS call, it's just an adult or

16:05

not. It simplifies a lot of things.

16:07

So I do think it's a solvable

16:09

problem. I don't want to dismiss it,

16:11

but it's not a showstopper. And I

16:13

am very suspicious of slow walking. Like

16:15

eventually with these things, you have to

16:17

just push something through. This

16:19

has been, I think, more or less

16:21

the approach with some of the US

16:23

state laws that have age-related restrictions for

16:25

various technologies, they're kind of saying just

16:27

figure it out. Ultimately, you do have

16:29

to do something like that, but I

16:31

like my OS solution. All right, another

16:33

argument, social media will become worse without

16:35

the excuse of protecting kids, and kids

16:38

will sneak in and not tell anyone

16:40

because they're not supposed to be there.

16:42

I don't buy this at all. This

16:44

idea that the only thing keeping... Fic-talk,

16:47

Instagram, X, whatever, these are whatever

16:49

services are being targeted here. The

16:51

only thing keeping them from eight-chan,

16:54

just like straight up chaos, is

16:56

the fact that we worry about

16:58

kids being on there. That's nonsense.

17:01

These companies don't care about kids.

17:03

They haven't been doing almost anything

17:05

for kids other than adding some

17:07

privacy controls that parents can control.

17:11

Right? We are not, I do

17:13

not buy this concept that our

17:15

current social media experience is mediated

17:17

by these companies being worried about

17:19

kids. They're mediated by trying to

17:21

keep their customers. What will our

17:23

customers bear? If Instagram turns themselves

17:26

into 8chan, most adults won't want

17:28

to use Instagram. You know,

17:30

we see like X decided we're going

17:32

to get less content moderatedly and then

17:35

Blue Sky came along and say we'll

17:37

get more more content moderation and like

17:39

these found different audiences, right? People are

17:42

carefully trying to, uh, hydrate what their

17:44

contents like threads are saying they're going

17:46

to turn down political content and we're

17:49

going to turn up this type of

17:51

content. Anyway, so I don't buy this

17:53

idea that, oh, we know the kids

17:56

aren't here. Let's bring

17:58

out the clue class. know, memes

18:00

or whatever, you're gonna lose all

18:02

your customers. I'm also not that

18:04

convinced by the argument that, well

18:06

now kids will sneak in and

18:08

not report what's going on because

18:10

they're not supposed to be there.

18:12

They're not reporting what's going on

18:14

now that they're seeing that's bad.

18:16

I'm not compelling to be. All

18:18

right. I think the

18:20

craziest argument against is this idea

18:22

of, well, if kids can't use

18:25

social media, they'll turn to the

18:27

dark web. This is a canard,

18:29

not just a canard. It's like

18:31

a complete factual inaccuracy that I

18:33

have been railing against for a

18:36

long time. Social media is not

18:38

the internet. Social media is a

18:40

small number of services that essentially

18:42

run their own private version of

18:44

the internet that are access to

18:47

internet protocols. But a lot

18:49

of commentators, especially people who grew up on

18:51

this or the companies themselves, like to equate

18:53

social media with internet themselves. So they say

18:55

like if you're not on a social media

18:58

platform, what's left? The dark web. That's

19:01

crazy. The dark web is a

19:03

very specific thing. It's a list

19:05

of, it's sites and services that

19:07

don't publicly have domain names that

19:10

are accessible through standard DNS services

19:12

or so that they can, you

19:14

only can get to them if

19:16

you, someone has told you specifically

19:19

how to log into them so

19:21

that they can have less scrutiny

19:23

from like law enforcement. It's like

19:25

this very small corner of the

19:28

internet that's not the dark web.

19:30

I've never had a social media

19:32

account. I use the internet a

19:34

lot. I'm not on the dark

19:37

web. So I do not like

19:39

this idea that the internet is

19:41

social media, and if you're not

19:44

on social media, you're on some

19:46

dark website ordering hitmen. All right,

19:48

the final argument is kids will

19:50

isolate and lose the positive benefits

19:53

of social media. I think this

19:55

is the point that's most worth

19:57

arguing. It's the point that's most

19:59

relevant when it comes to concerns

20:02

about social media bans. not one

20:04

that should be dismissed. Now the

20:06

key to this, let's get fine-tuned.

20:08

The key to this argument is

20:11

discerning between two different subgroups of

20:13

kids. And this is why I

20:15

think it's confusing for people when

20:17

they hear this argument on either

20:20

side of it is because they're

20:22

mixing together two different groups of

20:24

kids. For most kids, losing access

20:26

to internet-based community is not a

20:29

problem. For most kids, actually,

20:31

the moving more sociality to digital communication

20:33

itself is causing more harms. For most

20:35

kids, if you move them back... to

20:37

a more localized in-person sociality, that's actually

20:39

like really healthy for kids because it's

20:41

very complicated to build up your social

20:43

skills to mature as a social being.

20:46

It takes lots of practice and you

20:48

need all of the sources of information

20:50

where you evolve to take in, we

20:52

need to see people in front of

20:54

us, we need to see their body

20:56

language, we need to struggle, we need

20:58

the friction of trying to navigate complicated

21:00

in-person social interactions to get that practice

21:02

that's going to make us better at

21:04

it. So for most kids, it's kind

21:06

of what you need actually. is like

21:08

what I had in the 1990s as

21:11

a junior, you know, as a high

21:13

school student. Like it's actually fine. Most

21:15

kids are going to be fine. There

21:17

is, however, certain kids who, you know,

21:19

perhaps during a marginalized group living in

21:22

an area where there really is very

21:24

little support. Maybe there's just not very

21:26

many other people like them. They really

21:29

do feel isolated in-person sociality is not

21:31

going well. Traditionally, they would have had

21:33

a very hard childhood. They would have

21:36

felt very isolated. and maybe on social

21:38

media they can find out find other

21:40

people to support them find other people

21:42

who are of a similar community that

21:45

shows that you know they're not alone

21:47

all of this could be really useful

21:49

for that group so that's the group

21:52

I think for which that's true that's

21:54

where you need to be worried about

21:56

when it comes to this particular type

21:59

of argument One

22:01

thing I'll say here,

22:03

and one way we

22:06

can think about this,

22:08

is asking the question

22:10

of whether social media

22:13

platforms are inherent in

22:15

internet-based support communities. There

22:18

are internet-based support communities that come through

22:20

social media. Social media kind of makes

22:22

them easier to find, and they're typically,

22:25

it's good interfaces, like easy to use.

22:27

You can find your particular, you know,

22:29

maybe you're a tick-tockle pretty quickly, for

22:31

example, just automatically find you want to

22:33

see videos from these type of people,

22:35

and you'll see them a lot. You

22:38

didn't have to do much. We can

22:40

find a Facebook group or a read-it

22:42

thread that's of a particular community, and

22:44

the interface is there, and you have

22:46

a nice app. And so that it

22:48

could be really useful. But there is

22:51

a lot of internet, like we just

22:53

argued, it's not through these global conversation

22:55

platforms. There's a lot of internet that

22:57

can be leveraged successfully to help young

22:59

people find support communities. You have, for

23:01

example, the whole world of things like

23:04

newsletters and podcast, which often spawn their

23:06

own communities. You belong to like a

23:08

sub stack newsletter about something you really

23:10

care about. You're probably familiar with the

23:12

fact that there's a comment section on

23:14

the newsletter post. There's chats that happen

23:16

back and forth with the author of

23:19

it and there are niche communities, right?

23:21

It's people who are interested in this

23:23

very thing. It's a small group of

23:25

people. It's much more cohesive. There's no

23:27

algorithmic curation. There's no engagement. It's not

23:29

100,000 people talking about this and the

23:32

most outrageous stuff being curated for what

23:34

you see. It's there's 600 people here.

23:36

We're kind of on the same page.

23:38

We set up our own community norms,

23:40

right? You can have very strong community.

23:42

There's communities run by teens themselves. These

23:45

are based around discussion boards or chat

23:47

channels, etc. They just don't happen to

23:49

live in a social media ecosystem. Advocacy

23:51

groups themselves could run their own online

23:53

services, be it web or app base

23:55

where people can come together and chat

23:58

and share resources and have appropriate moderation

24:00

for exactly what this community is. Right?

24:02

Moderation is not a bad thing. Moderation

24:04

is hard when you're trying to apply

24:06

rules to 600 million Twitter. Moderation is

24:08

much easier. Like this is a group

24:10

for teens from this background. And there's

24:13

like a few hundred of us on

24:15

here. That's a very easy community to

24:17

moderate compared to we need rules for

24:19

600 million people. So my argument

24:21

there is that is a fair point. We

24:24

need to think about groups that are finding

24:26

support in the internet and make sure that

24:28

we don't wrench them away from that. But

24:30

we should start thinking about finding that support

24:32

in ways that does not necessarily involve global

24:35

conversation platforms, these social platforms. All right. So

24:37

there's the arguments for and the arguments against

24:39

I've gone through each of those. What's my

24:41

take? I would say

24:43

I'm generally in favor of legislation like

24:45

this at this moment, not because I

24:48

think it solves all the problems, like

24:50

put a law like this in place

24:52

and then we can all go home.

24:54

Our kids will be safe and we

24:56

don't have to think about it. What's

24:58

good about this type of legislation is

25:00

the signal it sends. And it is

25:02

a signal that is fundamentally techno selectionist

25:04

to use a piece of terminology that

25:06

I like and that I introduced. It

25:08

shows that we can notice. that something

25:10

that we embraced and had many good

25:12

attributes is having unexpected negative side effects

25:14

in certain instances for certain groups and

25:16

is perfectly appropriate to say, well, great,

25:18

maybe we should pull it back there.

25:22

that the arrow of the arrow

25:24

of the future with technology is

25:26

not unvaryingly straight. It's like a

25:28

meandering river. It's generally heading towards

25:30

some sort of proverbial future sea,

25:32

but it takes turns and has

25:34

oxbows and we can say, this

25:36

technology is great, let's try it

25:38

out. That service didn't work, kids

25:41

shouldn't use this. Actually, if we

25:43

change it to this, this works

25:45

better. We can edit and reflect

25:47

and curate and change our relationship

25:49

to technologies that already widely used.

25:52

I also like that legislation like this

25:54

sends a message to parents. Right. It's

25:56

okay to say I worry about this.

25:58

I don't like my using this. When

26:00

you have a law that's like kids

26:02

shouldn't use this, it makes it so

26:04

much easier to actually tell your kids

26:06

I don't want to use it. It

26:08

makes it so much easier for your

26:10

kids not to feel alone when they

26:12

don't use it. This is something that

26:15

opponents often don't understand about these type

26:17

of laws as they say, well, wait

26:19

a second, so many kids will get

26:21

around this. It's not that hard to

26:23

get around if they really want to.

26:25

And that's not the point. I think

26:27

the point is not trying to get

26:29

100% compliance, it's trying to make the

26:31

lives of families and parents who are

26:33

really worried about this, like 100% easier.

26:35

Because now it's not, I will be

26:37

the only one in my class who's

26:39

not on Snapchat, my life's going to

26:42

be terrible. To now the kid has

26:44

to argue to a parent, will you

26:46

break the law for me? And that's

26:48

a much easier place for parents to

26:50

be. So I think that's fine. I'm

26:52

also generally not in favor of the

26:54

approach of why don't we just instead

26:56

make social media safer for everyone? I

26:58

just think that's like an impossible thing

27:00

to do. It is, it's somewhat techno

27:02

utopian, it gets very vague, it runs

27:04

into all sorts of issues. I just

27:06

have not. I don't have a

27:09

lot of confidence that there's a way legislatively to

27:11

make social media good for everyone. It ends up

27:13

being like having extra long filters on the cigarettes

27:15

you sell to kids. Sometimes something is just not

27:18

appropriate for one group that's better for another. Yeah,

27:20

we do our best like this social media like

27:22

an interesting thing. It's entertaining. It's also kind of

27:24

dangerous. So maybe just kids shouldn't be there. That's

27:27

often easier than somehow trying to go through, right?

27:29

We didn't. We tried this with movies and then

27:31

we figured out it's better just to have ratings

27:33

and say you have to be 16 older than

27:36

16 to go the already movies. It was easier

27:38

than trying to have the Hays codes or whatever

27:40

that was trying to make all movies appropriate for

27:42

all people. We didn't get as good of movies

27:44

with those in place and it was just easier

27:47

to say, well, if we want to be really

27:49

violent or whatever, maybe just like young people shouldn't

27:51

go there, unless a parent really wants them to

27:53

see it and the parent can make that choice

27:56

and that's the already movie system. All right, but

27:58

I want to emphasize two things here. What's

28:01

talked about in these type of bills does

28:03

not capture all the harm of the internet,

28:05

all of the harms of the internet facing

28:07

kids. Much of the digital bullying that's happening

28:09

right now with kids is happening on group

28:11

text messaging apps, not in social media platforms.

28:13

Snapchat is where this used to happen, but

28:16

that's really just a glorified text messaging service

28:18

that kids like to use. So if you

28:20

really want to help the bullying issue, this

28:22

is where having a culture of kids aren't

28:24

just on their own phones all the time,

28:26

makes more of a difference. It also ignores

28:28

online games. It also ignores online games. Online

28:32

games are a huge source of the

28:34

sort of predation, online exploitation predation issues.

28:36

A lot of parents who maybe like

28:39

would not give their kid a phone

28:41

thinks it's fine that their kid is

28:43

playing Minecraft on a server on their

28:46

iPad. Not really is they're playing that

28:48

with unknown adults who are able to

28:50

interact with them. So it's sort of

28:52

missing out other sources of predation. But

28:55

mainly this is missing out on this

28:57

type of discussion is missing out on

28:59

the fact that These types of devices

29:02

and the content accessible through these devices

29:04

is hugely distracting and addicting for young

29:06

people. It's digital fentanyl for a young

29:09

person. Think about any 14-year-old you've ever

29:11

known or have ever seen who's been

29:13

given a smartphone. It is glued to

29:16

their eyeball. The ultra-process content, be it

29:18

coming through a social media platform or

29:20

through online games or through like hyperaddictive

29:23

web content or, you know, hyperdictive video

29:25

content, whatever it is, The growing kid

29:27

brain can't handle this. Like we thought

29:30

this was bad enough in the 70s

29:32

when Latchkey kids like glued the TV.

29:34

This is like a hundred times worse.

29:37

Now this is not something that this

29:39

these type of bills are trying to

29:41

handle, but it is one of the

29:43

largest issues we're going to see in

29:46

the questions that we're about to answer

29:48

here. This causes real issues to sort

29:50

of all out distraction and addiction of

29:53

these devices. So honestly, If

29:55

you want to know what I think

29:57

is most appropriate, it comes back to

29:59

my main suggestion, which is it's not

30:01

just social media unrestricted internet access. That

30:04

is a problem when you're younger than

30:06

16. So no, you just shouldn't have

30:08

a smartphone or a tablet with unrestricted

30:10

internet access. I mean, you can just

30:12

do what you want on this without

30:14

supervision until you're 16. That's really the

30:16

move here that probably matters. That's not

30:19

something that I think could be easily

30:21

legislated. I don't think it necessarily needs

30:23

to. This could be a cultural shift.

30:26

So again, laws like Australia is fine

30:28

for signaling that it's fine to make

30:30

different choices in your family, but the

30:32

lack of unrestricted internet access for kids

30:35

before 16 is probably like the bigger

30:37

choice. That's going to make a bigger

30:39

difference. All right, so how do we

30:42

connect this to all of us? Well,

30:44

what we are seeing here is techno

30:46

selectionism in play. This idea that it's

30:48

okay to try, watch, watch, and change.

30:51

The introduction of a technology doesn't mean

30:53

it always has to be used. Your

30:55

prior use of a technology doesn't dictate

30:57

your future use of a technology. Be

31:00

aware of the impact of technologies, make

31:02

assessments of this impacts of technology, and

31:04

make changes accordingly. That's what all of

31:06

us should be thinking about. There's probably

31:09

a technology in all of our lives

31:11

that needs the equivalent of the Australian

31:13

ban. Some of them that come along

31:15

and say, hey, just stop using this.

31:18

Maybe it was good before, but it's

31:20

causing more trouble than it's worth. We

31:22

should be comfortable with moving backwards in

31:24

the sense without thinking it's progress turning

31:27

backwards. So I think there's a general

31:29

message here of techno-selectionism. All right, that's

31:31

enough on what's going on in Australia.

31:33

Let's get to some questions about these

31:36

general topics, but first, here a word

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let's do some questions. Without Jesse here,

37:07

I'm gonna have to read these questions

37:09

myself. This is no fun. All right,

37:12

our first question comes from EM. EM

37:14

says, I recently lost my iPhone and

37:16

my life has gotten exponentially better as

37:18

a result. I easily keep up with

37:20

my graduate schoolwork and research goals. I'm

37:23

spending more time reading and immersed in

37:25

my hobbies and am taking better care

37:27

of myself by sleeping enough and eating

37:29

well. I spend maybe an hour a

37:32

week on social media on my laptop,

37:34

but here's the problem. I've realized that

37:36

I am profoundly lonely and moved across

37:38

the country away from all my friends

37:40

from graduate school and now that I'm

37:43

not spending hours every day fake socializing

37:45

on Instagram. I'm actually noticing that loneliness

37:47

any advice. Well I like this because

37:49

there's also a little case study hidden

37:51

in here. Notice all the fantastic stuff

37:54

that happened to EM when he lost

37:56

his iPhone and then later just changed

37:58

his social media to he just does

38:00

on his laptop one hour a week,

38:03

which by the way you're allowed to

38:05

do. And by the way, I make

38:07

this argument in digital minimalism, but when

38:09

I talk to adults who give me

38:11

a case that they need to be

38:14

using social media, 95% of the time.

38:16

The things they say they need

38:19

to use social media for could

38:21

be handled in one hour a

38:23

week on their laptop. So they

38:25

use that small number of things.

38:27

I need to be on the

38:29

Facebook group for my running club

38:32

to justify five hours a day

38:34

of scrolling on their phone. So

38:36

I really love seeing that. I

38:38

love, and I'm going to emphasize

38:40

what EM got out of this.

38:43

He easily keeps up with his

38:45

work now, makes progress on his

38:47

research goals. He reads, he's in

38:49

hobbies, he sleeps. All this good

38:51

stuff happened when he got rid

38:53

of like the phone addiction. Okay,

38:56

the loneliness. Well, this is important

38:58

because it underscores one of the

39:00

more insidious side effects or attractions,

39:02

maybe I should say, of our

39:04

current digital world. It simulates the

39:07

services and apps and devices simulate

39:09

deep human needs. Now

39:11

not in a sort of deep way

39:13

where it's actually going to satisfy those

39:15

needs, but just enough to be alluring,

39:18

right? It's like they have evolved to

39:20

say if we can offer a satisfaction

39:22

of deep human needs, that will make

39:24

us particularly alluring to people and we

39:27

can become a real part of their

39:29

life and therefore harvest their data denibles.

39:33

So fake socializing as he talks about

39:35

it, so being on social media and

39:37

talking with people with digital typing back

39:40

and forth on these various sort of

39:42

global conversation platforms draws on our deep

39:44

human need for sociality and sort of

39:46

makes us feel vaguely speaking like, okay,

39:48

I guess we're we're social, like in

39:51

a rational way we're social, we're talking

39:53

to people all the time. But the

39:55

problem is, and I argue this in

39:57

detail and digital minimalism, it's not actually

39:59

fulfilling our need for sociality because the

40:02

deep of our brain isn't seen another

40:04

person. Where is this person? What do

40:06

they look like? When are we sacrificing

40:08

non-trivial time and attention on their behalf?

40:10

So the deep part of our brain

40:12

is not seeing real human relations. It's

40:15

just a rational part of our brain,

40:17

saying I'm very social, I'm very social,

40:19

and so we're actually very lonely but

40:21

don't realize it. And so what we

40:23

see here is once EM actually took

40:26

away the fake socialization, he realized, oh

40:28

I am, I happen really I

40:31

was papering it over with this. There's other

40:33

needs to fulfill where they do similar things.

40:35

I mean, for example, we have this drive

40:37

for like competency to be good at things

40:39

because it increases our status in the community

40:41

tribe as someone who's useful and valuable and

40:43

we build a lot of meaning on it.

40:45

Video games can get in there and toy

40:47

with that. Oh, you're leveling up. You

40:50

just killed all the Nazis in this

40:52

base and call of duty. It plays

40:54

with that. You're like, yeah, that's fine.

40:56

I'm okay. I feel like I'm doing

40:58

enough to feel competent, but you're not

41:01

actually doing anything that's building real competence.

41:03

There's no real friction. You're not building

41:05

up real sort of hard skills in

41:07

a way that our body recognizes or

41:09

communities recognize that comes to haunt you.

41:11

And at some point you're like, why

41:13

do I feel so hollow and sort

41:15

of like angry or adrift or isolated?

41:18

It's because I wasn't actually building up

41:20

a tangible skill. I was pretending to

41:22

build up a skill. It simulates that.

41:24

It gives you numbers. You're level six

41:26

and you do some button pressing and

41:28

now you're level seven. It sort of

41:30

simulates it, but it's not really giving

41:32

you what you need. So Ian, what

41:34

should you do? You have to do

41:37

old-fashioned work of actually building connections. So

41:39

join communities. be useful in those communities

41:41

over time try to become a get

41:43

a leadership position in those communities. That's

41:45

a great way to be around people

41:47

to feel useful to feel less lonely

41:49

in the feel connected you'll meet people

41:51

that way as well. You also have

41:54

to think about taking regular doses of

41:56

what I call vitamin people being around

41:58

real people in person is necessary for

42:00

health? So it's not about like, am

42:02

I in the mood to be social

42:04

this week? Especially if you've been fake

42:06

socializing, you might have lost that muscle,

42:08

it might feel very uncomfortable. It's, have

42:10

I got a sufficiently large dose of

42:13

vitamin people this week? And you go

42:15

and you do things or you invite

42:17

someone you know or go to something

42:19

you know, they get that dose of

42:21

vitamin people. And then over time, as

42:23

the rewards come from forming these connections,

42:25

it's less something you have to sort

42:27

of force yourself to do and it's

42:30

something that you're really going to want

42:32

to do. So yeah, it could be

42:34

hard work to rebuild your social connection,

42:36

but it's important and I appreciate you

42:38

highlighting the degree to which social media

42:40

in particular can off-usgate the idea that

42:42

you actually are very lonely, you just

42:44

don't realize it. Let's move on with

42:46

Fajad. Fajad says you mentioned the following

42:49

Arnold Bennet quote in some of your

42:51

books. One of

42:53

the chief things which my typical

42:55

man has to learn is that

42:57

the mental faculties are capable of

42:59

a continuous heart activity. They do

43:01

not tire like an arm or

43:03

a leg. All they want is

43:06

changed, not rest except in sleep.

43:08

Ahad continues his question. Did you

43:10

still agree with what it says?

43:12

Do we really not need a

43:14

rest? Can we work all the

43:16

time like robots? That is exhausting.

43:18

I talk about this on my

43:20

book, Slow Productivity, particular principle too,

43:22

working at a natural pace. We

43:25

need great variations in effort over

43:27

different time scales. But Bennett isn't

43:29

talking about professional work here. The

43:31

argument he's making, and this comes

43:33

from his book, How to Live

43:35

on 24 Hours a Day, the

43:37

argument he's basically making is You

43:39

don't need as much like veg

43:41

out resting as you think. That's

43:43

what sleep is for. Sleep is

43:46

for the restorative. I'm doing nothing

43:48

and my body is like recharging

43:50

for the next day. You see

43:52

with your other time, do that

43:54

matters. Like do interesting high quality

43:56

stuff. So Bennett is actually pretty

43:58

dismissive of work itself because he

44:00

was he was addressing the sort

44:02

of newly enlarged London middle class.

44:05

They worked downtown and they would

44:07

take the trains back to their

44:09

suburbs. He was like, yeah, you

44:11

got your job, do your job.

44:13

All right, when you get home,

44:15

you have eight hours until you

44:17

go to bed. And what he's

44:19

saying is like, like, don't vege

44:21

out, do good stuff like intentional

44:23

meaningful stuff at that time. It's

44:26

going to energize you instead of

44:28

exhausting you. Now his

44:30

version of edging out if you

44:32

read the book because this is

44:34

the early 20th century is like

44:36

drinking like I'm gonna drink I

44:38

think you like playing cards and

44:40

drinking I guess that's their equivalent

44:42

of like vaping and scrolling social

44:44

media. He's like now do meaningful

44:46

stuff read poetry and think big

44:48

thoughts and have grand conversations or

44:50

whatever. And I think there's there's

44:52

truth to that. I think intentional

44:54

activity is something that we crave.

44:56

It doesn't have to be hard

44:58

activity. It doesn't have to

45:00

be like a real strain. But being

45:03

intentional versus I'm now going to spend

45:05

two hours on my phone while Netflix

45:07

is playing. He's saying it's being intentional

45:10

is going to be better. It's not

45:12

going to exhaust you. It's going to

45:14

give you energy. I think that's true.

45:16

I think a softer way of thinking

45:19

about this is in your time outside

45:21

of work to embrace what I call

45:23

the pig, PIG. which is

45:26

an acronym that stands for being

45:28

present, being intentional, and seeking gratitude.

45:30

So moment by moment in your

45:32

after-work time, when you're deciding what

45:34

to do next, be intentional about

45:36

what you choose. Don't just stumble

45:38

into something. Be present while you're

45:40

doing it. Don't also be on

45:42

your phone or only have pay

45:44

attention. And seek gratitude. Isn't this

45:46

great? I really enjoy this. This

45:48

is really good. This doesn't have

45:50

to be pig activities do not

45:52

have to be mentally trying. It

45:54

could be, for example, watching a

45:56

dumb movie with your kids. But

45:58

if you're chose to watch this

46:00

movie, like we're all gonna get

46:02

together to watch it, you're present

46:04

with them in the movie and

46:06

what's going on, you find gratitude

46:08

in like being able to watch

46:10

this movie that you remember from

46:12

your childhood and your kids are

46:14

there and it's, you know, it's

46:16

like a nice night or whatever.

46:18

That is like a meaningful activity.

46:20

It's not draining, it's not hard,

46:22

you know, you're not getting after

46:24

it or crushing it, but it's

46:26

different than like I'm just kind

46:28

of vegging with my phone. So

46:30

maybe that's a softer way to

46:32

think about Bennett is presence, intentionality,

46:34

and gratitude. Live on purpose at

46:36

most times. Even if what you're

46:38

doing on purpose is something that's

46:40

not particularly mentally trying or difficult.

46:42

So yes, thanks for bringing that

46:44

up and I like that book.

46:46

I like that book. I like

46:48

that book. How do

46:50

you do your research for books and

46:53

articles? I find it challenging to sort

46:55

through all of the information online. How

46:57

do you write your books in terms

46:59

of tools and organizing your thoughts? I

47:02

thought this was an interesting question. The

47:04

main point I wanted to respond to

47:06

here is the reality that the world

47:08

of available information is vast. So like

47:11

you want to write an article, you

47:13

want to write a book. Between other

47:15

books and other articles in the world

47:17

of online information, it's endless. It's endless.

47:21

The idea that I'm going to

47:23

master everything relevant to this topic

47:25

and somehow organize it and present

47:27

it back in my books or

47:29

my articles is hopeless. It's quixotic.

47:31

So the way a lot of

47:33

idea writers like myself or critical

47:35

commentators like myself, so I write

47:37

critical commentary and I write idea

47:39

books, the way we often operate

47:41

is trying to create a coherent

47:43

path through this world. It's like

47:45

pattern matching. These four or five

47:47

things I've encountered seem to connect

47:49

together. And if we connect together

47:51

right, it makes a coherent path

47:53

here or a coherent path. if

47:55

you want to use that metaphor

47:57

for one way of seeing some

48:00

part of our life that allows

48:02

us to take useful action or

48:04

make useful critique. And the landscape

48:06

in which this path or structure

48:08

is built is massive. The landscape

48:10

of all relevant ideas and information

48:12

is massive and we don't have

48:14

to get our arms around all

48:16

that. Just here is a coherent

48:18

path that will take you from

48:20

one place of somewhere else useful.

48:22

So we often think about that

48:24

as you're building a coherent path.

48:27

instead of trying to be comprehensive.

48:29

Coherency over being comprehensive. One of

48:32

the ways we see this violated

48:34

is you get people that become

48:36

encyclopedic when they tackle issues. Well,

48:38

there's 15 relevant main issues to

48:41

this issue that we're trying to

48:43

face here. And if we go

48:45

into sub-issue number three, sub. sub

48:48

sub point a we see this

48:50

particular argument and then we can

48:52

contrast that with point seven sub

48:55

point six like you can get

48:57

this like complicated hierarchy of information

48:59

that in most instances is just

49:01

overwhelming and and doesn't help the

49:04

other issue we see when we

49:06

we ignore the reality of coherence

49:08

versus comprehensiveness is that people get

49:11

petrified. If I build a path

49:13

over here. What about

49:15

the landscape over here and over

49:17

here and over here and over

49:20

here? And what if someone is

49:22

over in that landscape and they

49:24

will be upset that my path

49:26

over here doesn't speak to their

49:28

particular landscape. The problem is that's

49:30

also a quixotic approach as well

49:32

because the landscape is vast. The

49:35

number of ways to think about

49:37

it is vast. and

49:39

to try to address or handle everyone

49:41

to build a map that covers the

49:43

entire space, A, you're probably not equipped

49:46

to build that map because most of

49:48

these other spaces you've never been to

49:50

before, so it's not a useful map,

49:52

and it's much more boring. I want

49:55

to go, I'm stretching this metaphor, but

49:57

I want to go on a nice

49:59

nature walk now, I don't need a

50:01

topographic map of the whole state, right?

50:03

that's the other thing that happens. Comprehensiveness

50:06

can lead to a sort of incomprehensibility

50:08

because it's just you're trying to do

50:10

too much. So it's my approach that

50:12

a lot of commentators are doing the

50:15

same. In this vast space of issues

50:17

and information ideas, here is a coherent

50:19

path that for a lot of people,

50:21

hopefully, is useful. elaboration

50:24

of a metaphor beyond its actual usefulness.

50:26

But I just want to make that

50:28

point, Heather, that sometimes it's okay to

50:30

just find something useful to say and

50:33

then let people integrate that into the

50:35

much broader maps they're creating. All right,

50:37

we got a case study here, but

50:39

I'm going to put an asterisk in

50:42

front of this. It's a case study,

50:44

but it's also a plea for advice.

50:46

So it's a useful case study. It's

50:48

kind of a, at first, a sad

50:51

case study, but we're going to at

50:53

the end, give some advice to help

50:55

this person. So we're going to both

50:57

see a issue, be illuminated in detail,

51:00

and then we can talk about some

51:02

advice. All right. Our modified case study

51:04

today comes from Shane. Shane says, I'm

51:06

turning 25 soon, and the reality is

51:09

starting to hit me. I have wasted

51:11

the past eight years of my life,

51:13

scrolling through tech talk and Instagram, and

51:15

binge watching Netflix. My daily social media

51:18

usage is 15 plus hours. And I'm

51:20

sleep deprived due to this. The longest

51:22

I can go without scrolling through social

51:24

media is two days. I had no

51:27

goals when I was young. I just

51:29

went along with what my friends of

51:31

the time chose to studying university. Now

51:33

they all have successful careers are getting

51:36

married. I fell behind in life. I

51:38

dropped out of university two times, so

51:40

due to my parents forcing me to

51:42

study I somehow managed to complete my

51:45

degree. But even when I was in

51:47

university I barely attended classes and teachers

51:49

called me a daydreamer because I never

51:51

focused in class and they always zoned

51:54

out. As for getting a job I

51:56

prefer roles that don't necessitate daily attendance

51:58

in an office or any regular

52:01

work schedule. My introverted personality has led

52:03

me to isolation as I do not

52:05

like talking to people and I'm also

52:07

ashamed to meet anyone as I haven't

52:10

achieved anything. So I've tried learning various

52:12

skills in the past three years such

52:14

as coding, copywriting, graphic design, web design,

52:16

and animation so I can do freelancing

52:19

but never succeeded anything. When something gets

52:21

difficult I just drop it and continue

52:23

scrolling through social media. The

52:25

most I can focus is 10 minutes,

52:27

or sometimes I go into a flow

52:29

save for hours, but most of the

52:31

time my mind just goes blank when

52:34

I try to learn something. I've watched

52:36

over hundreds of self-help videos and tried

52:38

everything I saw in the videos. From

52:40

daily planning and specific goals to every

52:42

piece of advice out there, nothing works.

52:44

I know what to learn and the

52:46

exact steps I need to learn these

52:48

skills and how I will use them,

52:50

but after creating a schedule I will

52:52

use. Now I have

52:54

no idea how to get myself

52:57

to do something to achieve something.

52:59

All right, well let's start here

53:01

with a little bit of empathy.

53:04

This is sort of the worst

53:06

case scenario or a crystallization of

53:08

people's fears when it comes to

53:11

smartphones and social media and young

53:13

people. It is not for some

53:15

people benign. is not for some

53:18

people a way to check on

53:20

sports rumors and a community that's

53:22

really supportive to them as part

53:25

of an otherwise rich lives. These

53:27

devices with these types of services

53:29

can be incredibly addicting and have

53:32

damage to people's lives that counters

53:34

or is comparable to the damage

53:36

of any of the more sort

53:38

of well-known addictions. And we see

53:41

that here in this case study.

53:43

Now why do they do this?

53:47

Well, we have the distraction component,

53:49

right? So, like, how's this damage

53:51

happened? There's the distraction component. You're

53:53

using your phone instead of doing

53:55

other things that are more valuable,

53:58

but there's a deeper issue going

54:00

on. And I alluded to this

54:02

earlier in the show, but I'm

54:04

going to. detail it here more.

54:06

These phones simulate deep human needs

54:08

that were designed to actually drive

54:11

humans to do the hard work

54:13

of becoming a successful sustainable proud

54:15

human being. It is hard work

54:17

to become a respectable adult who

54:19

feel satisfied in life and has

54:21

a sustainable meaningful life. That is

54:24

hard work. Evolution set

54:26

us up to help us

54:28

do that hard work by

54:31

giving us a collection of

54:33

fundamental human needs. And they're

54:35

so compelling that in the

54:38

pursuit of satisfying these needs,

54:40

we will do the hard

54:42

stuff necessary to become a

54:45

successful adult. So these needs

54:47

include connection, a sense of

54:49

competency, community standing, and curiosity

54:52

slash fear boredom. Among others.

54:56

Those needs are very strong. Trying

54:58

to satisfy those needs, we end

55:00

up learning how to socialize, doing

55:02

the hard work of getting good

55:05

at things, trying to become a

55:07

leader in our community, seeking out

55:09

interesting information or productive activity, because

55:12

we really hate being bored, etc.

55:14

Modern phones and the apps and

55:16

services that are on them can

55:19

simulate fulfilling these human needs just

55:21

enough, the short circuit us from

55:23

actually going after them. They

55:26

make us feel just enough connected,

55:28

just enough competent, just enough part

55:30

of a community, and just enough

55:32

not bored, that we don't actually

55:34

get up off of the couch

55:36

and do the stuff needed to

55:38

become a successful adult. So by

55:40

short circuting those fundamental human drives,

55:42

we lose the carrot and the

55:44

stick that evolution granted us. to

55:46

prevent what is happening here with

55:48

Shane from happening in our lives

55:50

that really is the fundamental danger

55:52

just unrestricted phone access to a

55:54

kid, that if it's satisfying these

55:56

drives as they gain autonomy as

55:58

they go through their young adulthood,

56:00

they never do the work necessary.

56:02

That's really the insidious part, more

56:04

so than the distraction or the

56:06

addictiveness. That's part of the reason

56:08

why they're so addicting, is it

56:10

becomes our only outlet. Like this

56:12

is Shane's only outlet for satisfying

56:14

these drives. And we're miserable if

56:16

our human drives aren't satisfied. And

56:18

this is his only outlet now

56:20

because he never developed. the hard

56:23

adult skills necessary to do this

56:25

in the way that we're really

56:27

meant to do it. So now

56:29

all he's left with is the

56:31

devices. The good news is Shane,

56:33

it's recoverable. Those drives are there.

56:35

You just have to learn how

56:37

to satisfy them in the way

56:39

the real world way that evolution

56:41

intended. Your phone will then become

56:43

less compelling because it's not necessary

56:45

anymore. So this is very recoverable.

56:47

Now how do we actually do

56:49

this? Well, the big argument in

56:51

part one of the book I'm

56:53

writing now on the Deep Life,

56:55

part one is called Prepare. And

56:57

the big argument is we jump

56:59

too quickly into like making the

57:01

big changes in our life. I

57:03

want to be like, let's get

57:05

out there, I'm going to be

57:07

super social and get really good

57:09

at things. But we skip the

57:11

first part, which is just preparing

57:13

ourselves to be an imminently qualified

57:15

human being, just the hard work

57:17

of like learning how to be

57:19

someone who can do hard things,

57:21

until you've practiced and created yourself

57:23

into someone who can tackle hard

57:25

things in a consistent way, any

57:27

attempt to just go do something

57:29

hard is going to fail. So

57:31

I'm going to recommend a three-part

57:33

solution here. Let's start with discipline.

57:35

The ability to do hard things

57:37

that are valuable that you don't

57:39

want to in the moment. is

57:42

the fundamental ability to transform your life.

57:44

You are very bad at this now,

57:46

that's fine, because it's practiced. To say

57:49

you're bad at discipline now is like

57:51

saying also you're bad at the banjo.

57:53

The latter thing went and upset you

57:55

because you're like, yeah, I've never played

57:57

the banjo, but I'm sure I could

57:59

get better if I practice. Well, the

58:02

same is for discipline. I would use

58:04

discipline ladder technique I talked about in

58:06

a recent episode where you start with

58:08

a really small thing that you do

58:10

daily, but it's easy, and then you

58:12

ladder up to something slightly harder, and

58:15

then once you get used to that,

58:17

you ladder up to something harder, so

58:19

you work your way up to increasingly

58:21

demanding versions of whatever you're working on,

58:23

I would run two discipline ladders, one

58:25

involving like health and physical fitness. and

58:28

one involving the intellect, probably around working

58:30

your way up to being able to

58:32

read like interesting hard books. So have

58:34

a ladder you build up towards which

58:36

will lead to you getting in good

58:38

shape, and a ladder that will lead

58:41

up to you being able to use

58:43

your mind and apply it in a

58:45

consistent, sustained way, and be exposed to

58:47

interesting ideas. Run those ladders. Currently, this

58:49

could take three to six months. But

58:53

it's going to give you a base of discipline

58:55

we can now use going forward. All right, next

58:57

you got to organize your life. Start with capture

58:59

systems. Just have a place where you write down

59:01

all the different stuff you have to do broken

59:03

up by role and status. Then put away to

59:05

lightweight morning shutdown routines, so just every morning a

59:07

very lightweight thing you do. You're going to glance

59:09

at these lists and sketch out a plan. Put

59:11

a couple notes down. and a shutdown routine you

59:13

do, this should be really centered on. I just

59:15

want to make sure anything that came up gets

59:17

put in those lists, so I'm not remembering anything

59:20

in my head. Once you get used to that,

59:22

ladder that up to something like multi-scale planning. Then

59:24

you'll be ready at this point to do something

59:26

like multi-scale planning. All right, step three, and now

59:28

we're like pretty far into 2025 right now. And

59:30

now we're going to reclaim your brain from the

59:32

phone. I don't want you doing this yet. Before

59:34

you have discipline, before you have some organization over

59:36

your time and obligations, I don't want you going

59:38

cold turkey on your phone yet because it's going

59:40

to be like going cold turkey on like an

59:42

alcohol dependency, you're going to get the DTs, it's

59:44

going to be dangerous. But as a third step,

59:46

you're ready to reclaim your brain. And this is

59:48

where you're going to to a a

59:50

day break from optional

59:52

digital technologies. I kind of

59:54

walked through this in

59:56

my book, Digital through this on my

59:59

book, Digital You're going to

1:00:01

aggressively explore in -person community

1:00:03

opportunities. You're going to aggressively

1:00:05

explore a hobby or

1:00:07

skill that teaches you the

1:00:09

joys of real competency. that

1:00:11

teaches you You're going to

1:00:13

aggressively look into the world

1:00:15

of ideas outside of

1:00:17

your world of ideas to outside a

1:00:19

reading or documentaries. or And

1:00:21

in whatever work you're doing, you're doing, you're

1:00:23

going to aggressively look at, how do

1:00:25

I get better at this job? at this

1:00:27

job. Not, what do I want this

1:00:29

job to offer job to offer me, job? I

1:00:31

want to become indispensable want to become that later

1:00:33

I can take control of my career.

1:00:35

I You to have to get good first of

1:00:38

your job gets good. to get good first before your

1:00:40

throughout this whole thing. Journal throughout Reflect what's

1:00:42

working, what's not. working, what's not. You'll be ready

1:00:44

then to sort of get used to

1:00:46

going after these fundamental human needs needs your

1:00:48

device. device. After 30 days, make very

1:00:50

specific rules about what comes back into

1:00:52

your digital world your what rules you have

1:00:54

for using it. why probably have to repeat

1:00:56

this a couple times a year for

1:00:58

a while, all right? have to repeat this a can

1:01:00

come back from all a year for a while. All

1:01:02

right? This is not back from all this. This is not

1:01:04

destiny, but it's to take hard work. take hard Work

1:01:06

your way up slowly. up slowly. have some

1:01:08

setbacks, but I absolutely believe in you,

1:01:10

Shane. but I the advice I would give. in

1:01:13

I just pointed to multiple books and

1:01:15

multiple past episodes. You're going to some

1:01:17

have to dive into all of those as

1:01:19

well to really understand what I'm saying.

1:01:21

and But I will say clearly this

1:01:23

is recoverable. going to have to dive can figure out

1:01:25

how to actually be an well to human

1:01:27

being. what is going to

1:01:29

take some work. I will say is a

1:01:31

good time to do it. recoverable. You

1:01:33

can right. how to actually be an imminently now

1:01:35

we're at the slow productivity corner It's

1:01:38

just going to take some work. The

1:01:51

slow productivity corner question, we do one

1:01:53

question a week that relates to

1:01:55

my new book, to my new book, Slow Productivity, the

1:01:57

Art of start accomplishment, without burnout. All

1:02:00

right, today's slow productivity question, corner

1:02:02

question of the week comes from,

1:02:05

oh, I don't have a name.

1:02:07

That's a cool question. All right,

1:02:09

here we go. How does Fustina

1:02:12

Linte compare to the Tanya's longer

1:02:14

shorter way? Sounds quite similar. And

1:02:16

I like finding a source for

1:02:19

the essence of this wisdom in

1:02:21

Torah. All right, so we got

1:02:24

to do a little bit of

1:02:26

scholarship here. Fustina Linte. This

1:02:29

is a Roman phrase, make

1:02:31

case slowly, which I talk

1:02:33

about in my book, slow

1:02:35

productivity, because it ties to

1:02:37

the second principle of slow

1:02:39

productivity, which is to work

1:02:41

at a natural pace. So

1:02:43

make case slowly. What it's

1:02:45

capturing is you're sort of

1:02:47

relentlessly and systematically moving towards

1:02:49

a goal, but doing it

1:02:51

carefully and slowly. All right?

1:02:53

The longer short way. which

1:02:56

is a Jewish concept, I didn't

1:02:58

know about until this question. So

1:03:00

I did a little bit of

1:03:02

research. And as anyone who knows

1:03:04

anything about serious telemutic study knows,

1:03:06

20 minutes of internet research is

1:03:08

all it takes to master these

1:03:10

concepts. I'm being sarcastic. I'm apologizing

1:03:12

in advance to all the rabbis

1:03:14

who are about to say, oh,

1:03:16

you're getting this completely wrong. But

1:03:18

let me give you my understanding

1:03:20

of the longer shortway concept. It

1:03:23

comes from a story from Talmud. All

1:03:25

right? For those who don't know, Talmud

1:03:28

is the combination of the moral law

1:03:30

of Judaism combined with commentary known as

1:03:32

the Gamara in the sort of one

1:03:35

book, etc., etc., etc. It's old. All

1:03:37

right. And it's something that is studied

1:03:39

in Judaism. All right. So I found

1:03:41

using internet searches. the story from Talmad

1:03:44

from which this concept comes from, and

1:03:46

then we're going to say, how does

1:03:48

this give us more insight on slow

1:03:51

productivity? All right, here's the story. Said

1:03:53

Rabbi Yashawa bin Shaniya. a child got

1:03:55

the better of me, I was traveling

1:03:58

and I met with a child at

1:04:00

a crossroads. I asked him, which way

1:04:02

to the city? And he answered, this

1:04:05

way is short and long, and this

1:04:07

way is long and short. I took

1:04:09

the short and long way. I soon

1:04:11

reached the city, but found my approach

1:04:14

obstructed by gardens and orchards. So I

1:04:16

retraced my steps and said to the

1:04:18

child, my son, did you not tell

1:04:21

me that this is the short way?

1:04:23

Answer the child? Did I not tell

1:04:25

you that it is also long? All

1:04:28

right, so this story has a

1:04:30

lot of interpretations. In particular, I

1:04:33

believe, in a Hasidic tradition, there's

1:04:35

a book about it, there's a

1:04:37

rabbi that's done a lot of

1:04:39

glosses on it. But the simple

1:04:41

version, as best as I could

1:04:43

tell from my 20 minutes of

1:04:45

internet searching, what's being said here

1:04:47

is the long short way, so

1:04:49

the path pointed out by the

1:04:51

child that is long but short.

1:04:53

is sometimes the most direct way to

1:04:56

get to an important goal. It is

1:04:58

a long path of intentional steady effort

1:05:00

is sometimes the shortest way, the best

1:05:03

way overall to get to a goal.

1:05:05

By contrast a short long way where

1:05:07

you think you're taking a shortcut but

1:05:10

it ends up being very long. So

1:05:13

in sort of Jewish tradition, as

1:05:15

far as I understand, this is

1:05:17

often applied to like Torah study,

1:05:19

they get to the goal of

1:05:21

like connection to God, actually the

1:05:23

shortest path there is to like

1:05:25

a long commitment to studying Torah,

1:05:27

right? So long path of steady

1:05:29

intentional effort is sometimes the shortest

1:05:31

way to a goal. That's a

1:05:34

cool concept. I

1:05:36

think that is very similar to

1:05:38

Festino Linte, and I think it

1:05:40

is very, it's a nice way

1:05:42

of capturing some of the core

1:05:44

ideas of working at a natural

1:05:46

pace, right? The shortest path somewhere

1:05:48

is sometimes long, and that's okay,

1:05:50

because once you recognize that, you

1:05:52

can chill out and start doing

1:05:54

the daily or weekly or whatever

1:05:57

pace you're working at, do the

1:05:59

stuff that matters. and let it

1:06:01

pile up. Like the path is

1:06:03

long. So to make it sustainable,

1:06:05

do the right stuff at a

1:06:07

reasonable pace. So the longer short

1:06:09

way. I like that phrase. I'm

1:06:11

gonna add that to my lexicon

1:06:13

of slow productivity related ancient wisdom.

1:06:15

So thank you for sending that

1:06:17

in. All right, speaking of wisdom,

1:06:19

I wanna go over the books

1:06:21

I read in November. But first,

1:06:23

let's hear from some of our

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we got like Christmas or the other holidays

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right, let's move on now. move on now. Two books.

1:10:33

All right, I try to read five try

1:10:35

to read five books a month. and then report back

1:10:38

report back at the first or second podcast of

1:10:40

each month, what I read the month before.

1:10:42

So I in December now. before. So we're books did

1:10:44

I read in November? books that I read

1:10:46

in November 2024? First I I

1:10:49

read gaining ground by Forrest Pritchard.

1:10:51

It's called It's a

1:10:53

memoir of of Forest. Went

1:10:55

back to his family farm and took it over.

1:10:57

it He's over in Shenandoah, not far from here.

1:10:59

far He sells it at the Tacoma it at the Tacoma

1:11:02

Park love crossing paths with I love crossing I enjoyed

1:11:04

it. It's like a good memoir of someone a

1:11:06

learning of and embracing the farming life. the farming life.

1:11:08

Another memoir I I read, I guess it was in

1:11:10

a memoir mood this month, I'm realizing this. this. I

1:11:12

I read Little on the River

1:11:15

by River by Gwindeland like I like

1:11:17

writing. Bounds's this year, I

1:11:19

read that great book she wrote about

1:11:21

she wrote too late about people people in middle

1:11:23

it on difficult on difficult physical goals. Little

1:11:25

on the river is about her moving

1:11:27

from New York in the wake of of

1:11:29

9-11 a small town on the Hudson the

1:11:31

Valley and how she got really involved

1:11:33

in this involved in this pub pub. on the

1:11:35

river in this town and getting involved in

1:11:37

the life of the people at the

1:11:39

pub. And she's a great writer she's a

1:11:41

a great book. and it's a great book. It what

1:11:43

I thought it was. it This is

1:11:45

my fault my fault, not Gwindleins. I came

1:11:47

came into this thinking I really want to

1:11:49

hear about what it's like what it's like moving

1:11:52

a city. from a city. The like life in

1:11:54

in the countryside and the slowness

1:11:56

and that's, you know, very aspirational.

1:11:58

It really was about about. this

1:12:00

bar and the people in the bar.

1:12:03

And it's very touching the relationships she

1:12:05

made with these people, but it was

1:12:07

like the vignettes of this. It ended

1:12:09

up being a very affecting book. It

1:12:11

wasn't what I thought, but I ended

1:12:13

up enjoying it. I also read Lost

1:12:15

in Thought by Zena Hitz, H-I-T-Z. Now

1:12:17

this I thought was going to be

1:12:19

a memoir. Because Zena, she studied at

1:12:21

St. John's in Annapolis, the great books

1:12:23

program there, and was a successful academic,

1:12:25

but left the track and went to

1:12:27

like what was essentially a monastery. And

1:12:29

I thought this book was going to

1:12:32

be about her recommitting to a life

1:12:34

of the mind. It's not really about

1:12:36

her, though, after the beginning. It's just

1:12:38

more of a polemic about the value

1:12:40

of the life, the sort of standalone

1:12:42

value of a life that's dedicated to

1:12:44

embracing and engaging thoughts. So

1:12:46

once I adjusted that that's what this

1:12:48

was really about, there's some really good

1:12:51

arguments in there. I read it because

1:12:53

I'm thinking about one day writing this

1:12:55

book in defense of thinking, and she's

1:12:57

kind of doing something like that. So

1:12:59

if you want a sort of muscular

1:13:02

argument in favor of like hard books

1:13:04

and ideas as having intrinsic value, lost

1:13:06

in thought, we'll give that for it

1:13:08

to you. I then was, I guess,

1:13:10

the last person left to read Outlive

1:13:13

by Peter Atia. I had done an

1:13:15

event with Peter and he'd give me

1:13:17

a copy of his book and I

1:13:19

read it on the way home. It

1:13:21

was much better than I thought. It's

1:13:24

interesting because there's a lot of Peter

1:13:26

in this book and basically his trajectory

1:13:28

was I used to be superfiddly optimized.

1:13:30

Like exactly this diet and exactly the

1:13:32

supplement. And he sort of matured and

1:13:35

was like, no, no, no, different people

1:13:37

respond to things differently. Let's get to

1:13:39

like the big ideas that really matter.

1:13:41

I mean it was a, it was

1:13:43

a, it was a, more medically rigorous

1:13:46

and like less pro-science than you're going

1:13:48

to expect. It's like a really good

1:13:50

argument for like what matters for longevity

1:13:52

and what it looks like to actually

1:13:54

prioritize in your life. It's affected me

1:13:57

in various ways. I'm well written. No

1:13:59

wonder it sold. And I'm checking the

1:14:01

official list here. the copies because it's

1:14:03

a very good book and again it's

1:14:05

more general and less in the weeds

1:14:08

than you might imagine. So I'm glad

1:14:10

I read that. Finally I read We

1:14:12

have Never Been Woke by Musa Al

1:14:14

Garby who's a sociologist, assistant professor sociologist

1:14:16

at Stony Brook. That's probably my favorite

1:14:19

favorite book of the month. I love

1:14:21

books like this where you have like

1:14:23

a young academic throwing bombs. I

1:14:26

mean, he just comes into the building, he

1:14:28

looks at the people around them, and is

1:14:30

like, I've got something to say. And he's

1:14:33

making a big argument, and it's a bold

1:14:35

argument, and he does it confidently, and it

1:14:37

is very timely and very convincing. And it's

1:14:40

not saying something like, oh, we all are

1:14:42

thinking this. He's just taking his term saying

1:14:44

it. It's surprising. It's the type of intellectual

1:14:46

books I love. It's a little, an intellectual

1:14:49

experience, and I thought it was an exciting,

1:14:51

fun book to read, man. He's got some

1:14:53

courage too. And he's basically looking around at

1:14:55

all his fellow academics and other, what he

1:14:58

calls a symbolic capitalist, but sort of the

1:15:00

technocratic elite of US culture. And just saying,

1:15:02

hey, all this woke stuff, this is like

1:15:05

you guys playing internal status games. It's about

1:15:07

you trying to justify yourselves and your position

1:15:09

and it allows you to ignore or put

1:15:11

down people who have it worse often you

1:15:14

and still feel good about it. Eddie's pretty

1:15:16

compelling about it. It's fantastic, exciting intellectual journey.

1:15:18

Might not agree with all of it, but

1:15:20

you'll learn a lot and there's an energy

1:15:23

to it, which you don't always see in

1:15:25

these books. All right, so that's all I

1:15:27

got for today. We'll be back next week.

1:15:29

Hopefully, if everything goes well with what I'm

1:15:32

up to, with Jesse. I promise, Jesse's coming

1:15:34

back. I can't wait for that. Until then,

1:15:36

as always, stay deep. Hi, it's Cal here.

1:15:39

One more thing before you go. If you

1:15:41

like the Deep Questions podcast, you will love

1:15:43

my email newsletter, which you can sign up

1:15:45

for at cal newport.com. Each week I send

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1:16:08

resisting the forces of

1:16:10

distraction and shallowness that

1:16:13

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