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is a momentum media production. Welcome

0:48

to the Defence Connect podcast,

0:50

Australia's leading voice in national

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security and defence industry intelligence,

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direct from the nation's top

0:56

policy and business experts. Welcome

1:02

to the Defence Connect podcast. You've

1:04

got senior journalist Robert Doherty here

1:06

with Defence Connect, and we've got

1:08

a guest straight out of Sikorsky,

1:10

Australia, the general manager,

1:12

Cliff Kyle. We're talking today

1:15

about the new Black Hawk

1:17

helicopters that the ADF is

1:19

getting, whereas already gotten, almost. And

1:22

also we're talking about the Seahawk variants

1:24

as well. Welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thank

1:26

you for having me. It's great to

1:28

be here. Exciting. this year to

1:30

be able to talk about Blackhawks and

1:32

Seahawks being in service and really talk with

1:34

no one quantities about when those aircraft

1:36

are going to be delivered for the Australian

1:38

Defence Force. So very exciting time for

1:40

us. I forgot to mention as well, this

1:42

is that we are on the sidelines

1:45

of Avalon. So if you hear jets racing

1:47

overhead, I promise we're not

1:49

at some random airport. We are actually

1:51

live at Avalon. Cliff, we know that you've

1:53

previously had a career in the Royal

1:55

Australian Navy, so you were there 15 years

1:57

as an aerospace engineer. What did you

1:59

get up to there? And did you

2:01

have a lot of, I'm sure

2:03

you would have had a lot

2:05

of experience with the platforms, both

2:08

perhaps at that time with the

2:10

US for the Black Hawk and

2:12

potentially the Seahawk for Australia. Yeah,

2:14

so in fact, all of my

2:16

time in the Royal Australian Navy

2:18

was spent supporting the old Seahawk

2:20

variant so the Royal Australian Navy

2:23

used to support the S70B2 variant

2:25

which was overtaken or introduced so

2:27

the 60 Romeo was introduced to

2:29

replace the S70B so I also

2:31

supported the MA60 Romeo throughout my

2:33

naval career and then made the

2:36

transition across so very proud to

2:38

be able to have been with

2:40

not only the current platform but

2:42

but also the previous legacy Seahawk

2:44

platform for throughout my career

2:46

in the military, but also now

2:49

supporting it through industry. What was that

2:51

transition like, you know, from the

2:53

older variant to the new one?

2:55

Was it looked favourably upon by,

2:57

you know, aviators and support crew and

2:59

engineering staff as well? Yeah, so

3:01

certainly my recollection from being in

3:03

Navy, it was a lot of

3:05

a lot of excitement when the decision

3:07

was made to procure the MA

3:09

-60 Romeo as the SMUB replacement. And

3:12

then I think from an industry perspective, more

3:15

excitement for me when the decision

3:17

was made for the procurement of

3:19

an additional 13 Romeo aircraft by

3:21

the Navy to bring the total

3:23

fleet size to 36. You

3:25

would have seen some pretty interesting examples.

3:27

I think, you know, obviously I had to

3:29

use the phrase the high seas, but

3:31

there are big sea states. You

3:33

know, what was it like just seeing, you know,

3:35

aircraft being used in that sort of setting? Obviously

3:37

there would have been some close landings and things

3:40

like that as well. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It

3:42

operates in a harsh environment, so

3:44

a number of times being exposed to

3:46

an aircraft tied down the back

3:48

of the ship where you see

3:50

waves breaking over the top of the

3:53

aircraft, it really hits home as

3:55

to how durable those aircraft are to

3:57

be able to be exposed to

3:59

weather conditions like that, undertake their regular

4:01

servicing and then return to the

4:03

fight. the next day so

4:05

it really hits home how durable those

4:07

aircraft are to continuing service for as

4:09

long as they did in a bravo

4:11

context and that's translated across to Romeo,

4:13

made some improvements to the aircraft to

4:15

be able to be more durable and

4:17

withstand those conditions even more and stay

4:19

in the flight for longer. Yeah, cool,

4:21

cool. Now, what's it like now you're

4:23

on the opposite side? Obviously, you've transitioned

4:25

out of the Australian Defence Force and

4:28

you're looking at it more from a

4:30

corporate point of view. What's that been

4:32

like you as a personal jet? Personally,

4:34

apart from taking the uniform off, I

4:36

don't feel that much different, to be

4:38

honest. They still work your heart out

4:40

over at Sikorsky. We definitely work hard

4:42

for them. It feels like very much

4:44

the same team that we're working for,

4:46

having the fleet air arm in

4:48

very close proximity to where Sikorsky Australia is,

4:50

I think definitely helps. With that, we're

4:52

able to literally look out the window and

4:54

see the operational squadrons. And so

4:56

that transition was very easy for me,

4:58

in fact, because all of the people

5:00

that I had relationships with The

5:03

mission is the same. We're all supporting

5:05

the same thing. And I feel

5:07

like I'm just doing a different job wearing

5:09

a different uniform. We're all supporting to the

5:11

capability. What do you see for

5:13

the future of that? See the program, you

5:16

know, I guess the maritime helicopter

5:18

program in Australia. What's the future

5:20

there? So I think underpin by

5:22

the 13 aircraft that will be

5:24

delivered commencing in quarter two next

5:26

year. Yeah. Fleet size of

5:28

36 by the end of next

5:30

year. Something to look forward to. Yeah,

5:32

very much so. I think the

5:35

capability is very strong right now. And

5:37

I think the expansion of that

5:39

fleet to 36, three

5:41

squadrons to operational one training,

5:44

that only enhances the depth and breadth

5:46

of the capability that is able

5:48

to be employed in the Royal Australian

5:50

Navy. And so being able to

5:52

capitalise on the enhanced fleet size for

5:54

us, it will mean more personnel

5:56

that are going to be employed in

5:58

the course of Australia to support

6:00

the industrial base. And so we're

6:02

really looking forward to just expanding that

6:05

capability and scaling it so that we can

6:07

make all those advantages come through to

6:09

the war for them. From, you

6:11

know, from your own point of view, someone

6:13

that's been through that process, you've been on

6:15

the Australian Defence Force side of things, but

6:17

also the corporate side. What

6:19

should personnel who are currently serving or

6:21

maybe in future serving in the

6:23

future, what should they look forward to

6:26

about the newest platform? I

6:28

think There's been some

6:30

significant lessons learned from previous

6:32

employment of the SMU B2. We

6:35

obviously learn a lot of lessons

6:37

around making sure our fleet has a

6:39

common configuration with the US Navy,

6:41

for example. So I think one of

6:43

the big factors that is to

6:45

be excited about is the fact that

6:47

the common fleet is in partnership

6:49

with the US Navy so we are

6:51

a fleet or we'll be a

6:53

fleet of 36 but we are just

6:55

part of a global Romeo footprint

6:57

that is Navy likes to use the

6:59

term interchangeable and interoperable and we

7:01

truly are that with the US Navy

7:03

and so being able to be

7:05

part of the bigger Romeo family is

7:07

a real exciting point I think

7:09

for me and would be an exciting

7:11

point for people and the infant. Okay,

7:15

on that note listeners, something to look forward to

7:17

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at AustralianAviationAwards .com .au today. Cliff

8:03

Kyle, former aerospace engineer. Let's talk more

8:05

about the Blackhawk. I know you're familiar

8:07

with this platform. Certainly we've seen a

8:09

lot of press photos. There's been a

8:11

lot of political photos coming out saying

8:13

this is the new capability for the

8:15

Australian Defence Force. What's your take on

8:17

those as they sort of enter service?

8:20

Yeah, again, I think really exciting to

8:22

see a whole variant of aircraft

8:25

introduce. Welcome

8:35

to the Defence Connect podcast at Avalon

8:37

now that you had it first. I

8:40

think that's a hornet or something maybe. Back

8:50

to you Cliff, continuing to talk

8:52

about Blackhawks? Yeah, really exciting I think

8:54

to see another hawk for area. The

8:57

Australian armour used to like the

8:59

Australian Navy operate a legacy hawk,

9:01

so SME A9 was good draw

9:03

from the service. Now that capability

9:05

will be replaced by the UX

9:07

-60 mic. Black Hawk capability, I

9:10

think, most exciting is growing that

9:12

fleet size to a total of

9:14

76 Hawks by what will be

9:16

2030 when all the Black Hawks

9:18

are delivered, represents a significant... It's

9:30

interesting there's always that sort

9:32

of half delay, I

9:34

guess. Yeah, sorry, you were saying? Yeah,

9:36

so very excited to see that whole

9:38

fleet grow. I think

9:40

already it's with 13 aircraft

9:43

having been delivered. Last

9:45

weekend in Australia, another six

9:47

to come this year. I've

9:50

already amassed 1 ,500 flying

9:52

hours. as a Fenbury

9:54

this year, so testament to the

9:56

reliability, durability of that airframe in

9:58

the Hawks series of aircraft and

10:00

for the Army to be excited

10:02

about and the Australian Defence Forces

10:04

a whole with that increase in

10:06

fleet size. You've previously, obviously, we

10:08

talked about your work with the

10:10

Royal Australian Navy. What

10:12

about, you know, seeing, I guess, the US platforms?

10:14

They had Black Hawks. They would have had Black

10:16

Hawks at the time you were in service. You

10:19

know, what's your thoughts on that? Was

10:21

it always considered a stable aircraft and

10:23

a solid foundation. Yes, I

10:26

think Black Hawk has a good

10:28

lineage in the Sikorsky family. Over

10:30

4 ,000 airframes in operation and

10:33

35 countries operate them. So

10:35

an aircraft doesn't come with that

10:37

sort of reputation without being

10:39

able to perform. So I think

10:41

again, having that increased footprint

10:43

of aircraft brings some other important

10:45

factors with it because You

10:48

can have a fantastic aircraft, but unless

10:50

it's supported by a robust supply chain

10:52

that comes with scale, I

10:54

think you get disadvantage. So I think

10:56

being able to have that increased port fleet

10:58

brings the tale of the support system

11:00

with it, which gives us certainty to be

11:02

able to provide for the company. Yeah.

11:04

Is that the same feedback you're getting from,

11:07

you know, from boots on the ground

11:09

from, you know, your fellow soldiers that you

11:11

may still be in contact with, you

11:13

know, from service days? What's their thoughts on?

11:15

I guess the feedback. Yeah, certainly the

11:17

feedback that we get from both Army and

11:19

Navy is that they are comfortable with

11:21

where both platforms are at. We

11:23

need to focus forwards though. We need to

11:25

make sure that we're focused on the

11:27

future with the growing fleet of aircraft will

11:29

come challenges around supporting those. So we're

11:31

pretty laser focused on making sure that we're

11:33

aware of any risks coming up to

11:36

make sure that as our fleet size grows,

11:38

we continue to perform what they can

11:40

to be looked into the customer. On

11:44

that note, we're listeners. We'll go to

11:46

a quick ad break and then when we

11:48

come back, we'll be talking more about

11:50

the future of both platforms and what's to

11:52

come. Welcome

12:00

back to the Defence Connect podcast. You've

12:03

got Robert Doherty here, senior journalist

12:05

from Defence Connect and Sikorsky Australia General

12:07

Manager, Cliff Kyle. Let's talk

12:09

more about the two platforms. Obviously, into the future,

12:11

there's going to be some upgrades that are

12:13

sort of planned. What's Sikorsky looking at for the

12:15

future of those two platforms? So

12:17

for the Navy and the Army,

12:19

they are going to commonality of

12:21

configuration with the US Navy and

12:23

the US Army. we'll likely

12:25

see them remain lockstep with their

12:28

allies in the US. So we're

12:30

very much looking to stay linked

12:32

up with the Australian Defence Force

12:34

and provide the support when they

12:36

require it. And we hope that.

12:39

involves the ability for us to

12:41

do in -country modifications where the

12:43

Navy and Army see fit to

12:45

provide that to the capability. But

12:47

very importantly, they'll stay lockstep. So whatever

12:49

they decide to pursue in terms of

12:52

modifications will keep the platform relevant. And

12:54

yeah, we're very excited to be involved in that process.

12:57

What's the best possible outcome? You know,

12:59

if all contracts are on the table, what

13:02

conceivably can What can

13:04

Sikorsky provide for the two

13:06

platforms? Is there a

13:08

rematch to introduce some EW,

13:10

electronic warfare capability or

13:13

something for the armament? I

13:20

think the Army and Navy have both

13:22

made decisions based on their respective road

13:24

maps. The thing for us, we're

13:27

really focused right now. to

13:29

set before the growing

13:32

fleet of aircraft in our

13:34

eyes really behoves us

13:36

to make sure we're looking

13:38

after sustainment going forward.

13:40

There's challenges in growing scale

13:42

with sustainment operations. Workforce

13:44

is a key risk that we're keeping

13:47

our eye on so the ability to maintain

13:49

our fleet that's going to be almost

13:51

double what it is now across those two

13:53

platforms is going to introduce challenges. So

13:55

our focus right now is really making sure

13:57

that once we get those aircraft all

13:59

delivered, even though that's a number of years

14:01

away, it's going to come up pretty

14:03

quick. So making sure we're well positioned from

14:05

a workforce perspective to make sure that

14:08

we can provide for the KB Williams. But

14:10

what's some priorities there in terms of, you

14:12

know, on the ground supply chains and that

14:15

sort of thing? Is that all firmly established

14:17

and ready to go? Or is there some

14:19

aspects you're looking at? So there is a

14:21

degree of establishment. So one of the things

14:23

that we were able to

14:25

do. Having Romeo in

14:27

service for over 10 years now,

14:29

we've built a solid network of

14:32

over 60 small to medium enterprise

14:34

organisations that we leverage in our

14:36

main support network. The

14:38

Hawk variant again brings that benefit.

14:40

We're able to almost immediately transfer

14:42

those same vendors across the sport,

14:44

Black Hawk, and that's in addition

14:46

to what we're doing now already

14:48

internally to provide that AIC to

14:50

reduce the likelihood of congested supply

14:52

hormones and make sure that we

14:54

can support the capability from Australia

14:56

to make sure the warfighter can

14:58

have capability at speed. The

15:01

actual delivery sort timelines, what are we

15:03

looking at for the latest? Yeah,

15:05

so Seahawk First is the first

15:07

additional aircraft, so of the 13,

15:09

the first one will arrive quarter

15:11

two next year, and those deliveries

15:13

are scheduled to complete by the

15:15

end of next year, so all

15:17

36 aircraft by the end of

15:19

2026. On the Blackhawk side,

15:21

so as I mentioned before, aircraft 13

15:24

arrived in country last weekend. and six more

15:26

aircraft you know are on for the

15:28

end of the year with full suite of

15:30

42 to live in by the end

15:32

of 23rd and so 76 in total while

15:34

that's on. Okay and we should probably

15:36

throw in an Avalon question as well. What's

15:38

your thoughts on this year's Avalon air

15:40

show you know what's the feedback you've been

15:42

getting from the industry? It's

15:45

very much around expanding our supply

15:47

network and I think importantly around

15:49

what we call our tier two

15:51

suppliers so really making sure that

15:53

we've got some some reserve and

15:55

depth and making sure that we

15:57

can have red devs as light

15:59

as possible because I think we've

16:01

all come to realise very quickly

16:03

that we need to have as

16:06

much repair capable in Australia. Yes,

16:17

I think engaging with with supply has

16:19

been a key part of Avalon for

16:22

us with We've

16:25

had the opportunity to meet and

16:27

reinforce relationships with a number of

16:29

our all -call tier two suppliers

16:31

and that's really allowed us to

16:33

expand our breadth and depth of

16:35

supply from Australia to make sure

16:38

that where we're challenged with supply

16:40

lines back to the Cornell United

16:42

States. We can make sure that

16:44

the support networks are there to

16:46

provide for both capabilities, Sea

16:48

Hawk and Black Hawk, so

16:51

that the warfighter can have the

16:53

assets. In terms of government

16:55

support and also industry support, what's

16:57

the response been like for

16:59

supply chain and also just a

17:01

general response from industry and

17:03

government? Yeah, so from a Black Hawk

17:05

perspective, we managed to

17:07

work very collaboratively. So

17:19

as I was saying, from a Black

17:21

Hawk perspective, we've worked very collaboratively with

17:23

the Commonwealth. The speed

17:25

of the platform introduction in that

17:27

particular case necessitated it, so

17:29

very pleasing now to see. what

17:32

they will call Node 2,

17:34

so I've been hopefully standing up

17:36

that capability, so Lockheed have

17:38

people in Node 2 right now.

17:40

There is a capability established

17:42

in Holesworthy with people embedded into

17:44

the maintenance environment at Sixth

17:46

Aviation Regiment, so they're providing flexible

17:49

support to the Army, to

17:51

the mission with aircraft, one station

17:53

there. Establishment of a

17:55

warehouse in the adjacent precinct to

17:57

Holesworthy, so about 15 minutes drive

17:59

from Holesworthy, is a ready -to -go

18:01

warehouse for all of the Black

18:03

Hawk's ferry. And also

18:06

a separate office in Brisbane to

18:08

be able to support the other

18:10

project staff, as well as the

18:12

embedded staff in the assistance program

18:14

officer at inaugural barracks. So fairly

18:16

extensive network of personnel that requires

18:18

key interfaces and collaboration with the

18:20

Commonwealth to make that program successful.

18:22

Okay. That sounds fairly positive.

18:24

What about the response overseas? What's Sikorsky

18:26

doing in terms of its work

18:29

with the US military? So I

18:31

think the partnership between both the

18:33

REN and the US Navy and also

18:35

the Australian Army and the US

18:37

Army have probably been the underpinning reasons

18:39

those two programs are successful as

18:41

they have been. And I think that's

18:43

built on a long history of

18:45

cooperation, not just in aviation, but over

18:47

the last More than 100 years

18:49

and we're seeing the results from that

18:51

now in that partnership that really

18:53

flourishes and provides results for us in

18:55

delivery of Hawks and sustainment of

18:57

those platforms. Yeah, I know that, you

18:59

know, obviously that's been a big

19:01

partnership over the years. When you were

19:04

in service, you probably would have

19:06

seen, you know, that. the US aircraft

19:08

that were already established there. Do

19:10

you remember what your first thoughts are

19:12

when you saw those platforms and

19:14

possibility that Australia might have them as

19:16

well into the future then? Yeah,

19:18

certainly I think being part of the

19:20

US Navy family of aircraft was

19:22

never... As much of a reality as

19:24

it is right now, Australia used

19:26

to operate, I feel, as

19:28

almost a bespoke aviation force, but

19:30

I think now what we've really

19:32

got is part of that bigger

19:35

family with these warped variants. Yeah,

19:43

so you know being part of that

19:45

bigger Hawk family seat or Black Hawk allows

19:47

us both from a Navy and Army

19:49

as well as an industry perspective to really

19:51

collaborate across those three pillars to achieve

19:53

success because I think if one element fails

19:55

in the system, we all fail. So

19:57

we've managed to come together and really seek

19:59

a common the outcome. which is you

20:01

very much for your time on the podcast

20:03

today. Thank you. Thank you very much.