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Welcome to Demystifying Instructional Design, a podcast where I interview

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various instructional designers to figure out what instructional designers do.

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I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host. If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing or leaving

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a comment on the show notes blog post and consider

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helping to support the podcast with a donation to my

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Patreon account. Welcome Yourel to Demystifying Instructional Design a podcast where I

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interview instructional designers about what instructional designers do to start

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us off. Can you introduce yourself?

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Absolutely. I want to say thank you so much for having

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me on the podcast, Rebecca. I am a learning and adult education consultant.

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I am a Philadelphia born and raised HBCU graduate.

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The oldest of three. The mother of three.

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I'm a lifetime learner and I am a lover of

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all things, learning. I see myself as having learning as a superpower.

1:01

That's something that I really embrace every day.

1:03

I use it and I encourage others to do the same.

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I enjoy talking about learning as much as I do

1:10

it, to the point where I get up at unconventional

1:13

hours in the morning to talk to other people across

1:15

the globe about learning. And I'm here for it.

1:18

I produce learning solutions for a wide range of organizations

1:21

across different industries, you name it.

1:24

It's an industry I haven't gotten into yet.

1:27

I'm open for it. That's how committed I am to learning and using it

1:30

as my superpower.

1:33

Also, I love that superpower idea.

1:36

I think of instructional design as a superpower in

1:39

and of itself. Yeah.

1:40

It really is one it's, it's one that you can

1:43

definitely use across all kinds of situations and organizations and

1:47

circumstances. And we all have it. We all have that learning power.

1:51

Cool. And I like to call this the origin stories.

1:54

How did you get into instructional design?

1:58

I started out knowing that teaching in some capacity was

2:02

going to be my path. I knew this since I was a very young child.

2:06

I knew this when I was watching Mr. Rogers and

2:09

LeVar Burton growing up. But what I didn't know was that my teachings were

2:14

going to be driven through this practice that we call

2:17

instructional design. Right? Because I'd never heard of it.

2:20

I'd never seen anyone do it. And I basically had no inclination that it was something

2:25

that existed. So we fast forward umpteen years later and I start

2:29

my first job out of college as a project manager

2:32

in the city of Philadelphia for a nonprofit organization that

2:35

basically was working with strategic partners to create education and

2:38

employment opportunities for youth in the city.

2:41

I found myself in my zone. I was loving it and I didn't realize it, at

2:46

least not immediately. But the environment that I was in was filled with

2:50

so much energy that was focused on building solutions through

2:55

community based organizations and education institutions that was preparing young

2:59

people for their careers. It was, in essence, where I now consider my stomping

3:04

grounds in which I honed my skills as an instructional

3:08

designer, even though, let's remember at this point, I still

3:11

had not seen or heard of instructional design, didn't know

3:14

what it was. At that time, I was just a project manager.

3:18

I had this caseload of 12 different youth programs that

3:21

I was responsible for monitoring and reporting and managing the

3:25

grants awarded through these different federal programs.

3:28

And my job was to go to these organizations and

3:32

to start conducting basically needs analysis, making sure that they

3:37

were using the funding for what it was supposed to

3:39

be. And Philadelphia, it's my hometown, and many of the programs

3:44

that were assigned to my caseload were implemented by organizations

3:48

or institutions that served me.

3:50

As I was growing up through my formative years.

3:53

And so I saw it as my way to give back.

3:55

So I asked questions to the staff, to the program

3:58

participants, to the parents, to the program administrators.

4:01

Really went beyond the level of asking questions in which

4:04

were required for me as a project manager.

4:06

Right. And I was only supposed to go there and answer

4:09

these questions, check off some things on a report and

4:12

then go back and say, yes, they're doing the job.

4:14

No, they're not doing the job. But I found myself asking these conversations and talking to

4:19

different people, finding about their experiences, which revealed different problems

4:23

and gaps and obviously lots of opportunities for improvement that

4:26

these programs could address to better serve their program participants.

4:30

I was consulting, I was identifying a problem.

4:33

I was recommending solutions and organizing meetings to socialize, change,

4:38

and I was doing all this stuff, not realizing that

4:41

again. Now I know that these were the beginning stages of

4:45

what we know as the ADDIE methodology.

4:47

I wasn't an instructional designer. I was a project manager and wasn't tasked to go

4:51

there and conduct an analysis. I was just tasked to go there to find out

4:55

if they were using the funding for the way that

4:57

they were supposed to be using it for. But here I am in this organization going to these

5:02

different programs and I'm having these conversations and implementing this

5:07

process for my caseload of programs resulted in a lot

5:11

of them receiving funding for the additional recurring years.

5:15

And that's because after these conversations, I would design workshops,

5:18

I would design meetings for us to talk through them

5:22

and come up with processes and procedures for them to

5:24

improve on. And so my peers and colleagues, they were asking, how

5:27

are you getting these results with your programs?

5:30

How are all your programs? A high number of them, they're getting refunding for recurring

5:34

years.

5:35

And so when I shared with my supervisor what I

5:38

was doing, she didn't ask me to lead the team

5:40

through my process. And there I was again, Rebecca at the beginning stages

5:46

of sharing, okay, this is what I did.

5:48

This is how I did it. And again, this is instructional design, right?

5:52

Not realizing that process I was walking through was again

5:55

the ADDIE process. I was analyzing these, designing the learning, developing a solution

6:00

to implementing a strategy so the evaluation of all of

6:03

this comes out in such an organic way because it

6:07

was visible, by the way, that the programs were performing.

6:12

It was if they got funding again, then that process

6:16

worked. And for my colleagues in which I shared my process

6:20

with it simply showed them, Well, okay, let's see how

6:22

many of your programs are going to receive refunding for

6:26

the following years now that you too are going out

6:29

to those sites and you are taking them through this

6:31

process? After that, I just looked for other opportunities that were

6:35

associated to going into organizations and solving problems through learning.

6:40

And eventually I did stumble across, hey, you should be

6:44

an instructional designer. What is that?

6:46

Oh, let me tell you. And I was working for a consulting company in Newtown,

6:53

Pennsylvania, that was basically sending out training programs, reading training

6:58

programs for pharmaceutical companies. My background wasn't in any type of pharmaceuticals I had

7:03

no knowledge of, and I have no degrees in anything

7:06

related to pharmaceuticals. But there I was using this process of going into

7:12

an organization, asking questions, seeing what the problems are, identifying

7:16

the processes and procedures to design, learning around it.

7:20

And from there, the rest is I just pursued other

7:22

opportunities after that, looking for other opportunities to go into

7:26

organizations and solve problems through learning.

7:29

That's fascinating. You couldn't see me smile because there's no of course,

7:32

no video on right now, especially when you said that

7:35

somebody said you should look into instruction design because that's

7:40

so true where so many of us that we found

7:43

it by accident after having done it for a while

7:46

and not having a name for it.

7:48

Absolutely not having a name for it, but just practicing

7:53

it and doing it, I think is really the main

7:56

part of it all, is I just intuitively always was

8:01

a person that was into learning, that was my personal

8:04

play as a kid, playing and acting like I was

8:06

teaching or creating little tests, actually designing them.

8:11

Rebecca, designing tests on paper like okay, multiple choice.

8:17

Where did that come from? Don't know, but it was always there.

8:21

How do you describe to people what you do when

8:25

you say you're an instructional designer? How do you describe that?

8:29

Yeah, I'm going to refrain from getting sciencey with it,

8:32

because usually when you say it when people think of you

8:36

being an instructional designer and you think, oh you're the person

8:39

that does the PowerPoints or something like that, and I

8:42

start off by saying what I'm going to say right now, which is what I do is fulfilling, fun and

8:47

fruitful. Okay.

8:50

And that usually engages people. What do you mean by that?

8:53

Well, being an instructional designer and specifically one that designs

8:57

for the workforce like I do, it really gives you

9:00

a unique position and a perspective on other roles, other

9:05

careers, other jobs, how they're related and the value that

9:09

they add to society. It is a very unique position to be in and

9:15

as a consultant, designing and producing different learning programs to

9:19

solve problems in organizations both large and small.

9:22

I got to show up with my superpower to help

9:26

them work towards their vision, right?

9:29

To remove barriers that pose risks to their mission, to

9:33

influence change in ways that support the accomplishments of their

9:37

goals, in their performance objectives. So at the end of the day, I'll just say

9:41

again, what I do is very fulfilling.

9:44

It's fun, it's fruitful, it's a way to make a

9:47

large impact and a very nimble and small way.

9:52

You mentioned that you're primarily a consultant, and I'm wondering

9:55

how you got into consulting.

9:57

Yes, I got into consulting.

9:59

And I think it just goes back to my experience

10:02

of how I stumbled upon instructional design, which is really

10:05

from that experience of going out to different organizations and

10:10

having those conversations to see what their problems were.

10:14

And that really excited me for the simple fact of

10:19

having this perspective, of being able to go from one

10:23

organization to another and see where I can help them

10:28

solve their problems. Working in a capacity of full time, which I have

10:34

that experience as well. I've worked at organizations and been a full time instructional

10:38

designer, a senior instructional designer.

10:40

I've been the technical trainer. And so in those roles I've always found like even

10:45

full time you do get exposure to that consulting type

10:49

of life, right? because you're not just siloed into a department or

10:55

a project. To be a successful instructional designer, you have to be

11:00

able to talk across different workflows and speak the language

11:05

of different workforces and different career paths.

11:09

And so with that, it just became something that I

11:13

was like, you know, I really want to continue honing

11:16

my skills. And so sometimes when you work in an organization for

11:20

X amount of years, you don't really get that same

11:23

variation of seeing the different ways that other organizations are

11:27

experiencing problems, how they have to mitigate risk.

11:30

You can have the same repetitive experiences.

11:33

And so for me, it became a a desire to

11:38

continue building on my skills and challenging myself.

11:41

And when I found that I was in an organization

11:44

where there was nowhere to move, there was nowhere to

11:47

go to the next level, I could not see what

11:49

the next path in my career would be.

11:52

As a learning and development professional, I begin to look

11:56

out and say, hey, all of these organizations are out

11:58

here, there's consulting opportunities and I am going to go

12:03

out and I'm going to help them and they're going to help me learn some new stuff.

12:07

They're going to help me learn about new tools and technologies and techniques.

12:10

They're going to help me really take my level of

12:14

knowledge as it relates to instructional design and influence me

12:18

in a way to really become more creative and innovative

12:21

as to how I'm helping them solve problems.

12:23

But at the same time, I'm going to be able to take this knowledge that I'm gathering from these different

12:29

places to create some learning solutions that are really impactful.

12:32

So to answer your question, what got me to the

12:35

point of becoming a consultant was really the desire to

12:39

hone in my skills, expand on as an instructional designer.

12:42

I was looking for more of a challenge and I

12:45

found that being in the organization as a full time

12:48

employee, sometimes it would get limited.

12:50

Not all the time. There's places that I've stayed for a long period of

12:54

time and when the opportunities for growth were no longer

12:58

existent. Then I went to consulting.

13:02

A very interesting way to grow your experiences and to

13:06

grow as a professional.

13:08

Oh, for sure. For sure.

13:10

I think a lot of people who as instructional designers

13:14

do explore in that type of way.

13:16

I've had places that I've been an instructional designer full

13:20

time, and because I was so hungry for the opportunity

13:24

to try a new tool or try another piece of

13:28

technology or have some other organization or project really listen

13:32

to a different approach that I had towards learning.

13:35

I would on, the side, take a contract, still maintaining

13:39

my full time position, would take a contract.

13:41

And so I would do that so that I could

13:44

get that additional exposure right, but still continue to maintain

13:48

a relationship with my existing full time position.

13:53

So you can do both. You can definitely do both.

13:56

And I think when you find yourself in that role

13:58

of, okay, here's a contract for three months or here's

14:00

a contract for two months, and they want X, Y

14:03

and Z, I have to create an elearning, or

14:05

they're looking for a new solution. They just need another person to add to their team

14:09

for support. I can do that. In addition to maintaining my full time role, you'll find

14:13

yourself doing that and meeting other designers, meeting other people

14:18

within the L&D field, which will make you start to

14:21

say, Hey, I could take on more of this stuff

14:23

and this is pretty nice. What really gravitated towards all of the consulting, and I'll

14:29

say this in addition to what I mentioned earlier, it's

14:33

also the networking. The networking and the exposure to others that are doing

14:38

things differently, it's the best thing that you can do for yourself as an instructional designer is to really allow

14:42

yourself to to mix and mingle with other designers and

14:47

have conversations with them no matter what level they're at everybody

14:50

has something great to say.

14:51

I couldn't agree more.

14:53

And how much you learn from each other is quite

14:57

fascinating. But you never know when you're going to run into

15:00

something like a problem you're trying to fix, where the

15:04

conversation you had with someone else is going to help

15:08

you frame that.

15:10

Absolutely. Absolutely.

15:12

And that's where those experiences of listening to those different

15:15

stories definitely help, especially when it feels like it's a

15:19

large a large world.

15:21

But the world of L&D is pretty small.

15:24

Your reputation is a lot. It means a lot.

15:27

And so your ability to collaborate and to share as

15:32

much as you are receiving it goes a long way

15:37

in helping you in your career and when you work

15:39

on other projects.

15:41

What would your typical tasks be in a day?

15:44

Yeah, I say as an instructional designer, the typical has really involved mitigating

15:50

risk and problem solving, which really requires us to

15:56

converse, connect and collaborate with everyone about various things.

16:01

And when I say that, I'm talking about time, access,

16:05

availability, things like outcomes and just in the essence the things

16:09

that our learners will need to be successful.

16:11

That's typical no matter what stage of the ADDIE methodology

16:15

or process that you find yourself in. But the fun stuff like researching, drafting, developing and implementing

16:21

those are the tasks that typically are confined to specific

16:24

points in a process. But that's not always that's if you're lucky, right?

16:30

That's in the ideal state. It's really not out of the ordinary to find that

16:35

you may need to develop when you're implementing or vice

16:38

versa, you might need to implement when you're developing

16:40

but those are what a lot of designers we

16:43

call that the hurry up and wait projects.

16:45

Right. It's I need it today, I need it tomorrow.

16:48

And you hurry and you go into one phase in

16:51

the process to hurry up and get it done, only

16:53

to find that you're going back. But that comes with skill and experience to be able

16:58

to gauge and pace yourself with that, to push back

17:02

with stakeholders and clients. Regarding that whole process, which takes me back to the

17:07

typical task in your day mitigating risk, problem solving, conversing,

17:12

connecting and collaborating. When you say mitigating risks, then you're speaking about risks.

17:18

Is it to you or to the overall project or

17:22

to you as the consultant or yeah, I'm just trying

17:25

to get the context for that. It is risk in general, and that is where really

17:31

instructional designers have to have their ear to the ground

17:33

because those risks could be risks to obviously the project

17:37

that you're working on. What's going to stop it from getting to the finish

17:41

line? What technical problems might there be?

17:43

What conflicts may come up that may result in the

17:46

implementation not going as planned?

17:49

What is a detriment to the vision of the shared

17:52

state of what success looks like?

17:54

Right. So those are just a couple of examples of risk

17:58

that can come into your space as an instructional designer,

18:01

the person that is responsible for leading the design of

18:05

this learning. And those are risk on the project level.

18:09

But then there's also risk that come in from the

18:11

communication standpoint of people not really being on the same

18:15

page of understanding what that vision of success looks like,

18:18

what that content is supposed to look like, have this

18:21

or this subject matter experts in alignment, what is being

18:24

put out and shared. Is it really going to be something that the learners

18:28

are going to be able to retain and understand?

18:32

There is risk all around that.

18:34

If you're an instructional designer and you're not thinking about

18:38

risk, you're not thinking about how you're going to mitigate

18:41

risk to either yourself, your reputation as an instructional designer,

18:46

because that really what you have to maintain your ability

18:49

to continue to get project work.

18:51

If you're not mitigating those risks, then the outcome of

18:54

that is pretty obvious. You won't be able to secure any additional work.

18:58

The other risk or risk to your project, just the

19:02

overall end project, your deliverable.

19:05

There's so many people that are a part of the

19:09

project that are helping you get it to that point.

19:12

And that's again going back to conversing and connecting and

19:14

collaborating to mitigate the risks to your project.

19:19

That end result that you have to have conversations with everyone

19:23

because at some point in the process there is a

19:27

touch point and it's your job to know what those

19:30

touch points are. It can be overwhelming at first to even consider

19:34

wow, I got to know all of these different touch

19:36

points, to have all these different conversations with different people

19:40

to mitigate this risk. I don't want to alarm anyone in positioning it that

19:44

way. It does come off a little more organic.

19:46

When you allow yourself to be a part of the process, you allow yourself to create

19:51

relationships with the people that you are working with

19:55

and you allow yourself to maintain a professional reputation in

20:00

which people will come to you and they will share

20:03

information with you so you won't have to work as

20:06

hard. But this takes time. These type of things take time.

20:09

What types of projects do you find fun?

20:12

I will say a project in which I have zero

20:16

knowledge on the subject matter. And the reason why I say that those are fun

20:20

are is really because I get to merge my personal

20:23

experience as a learner with my professional exploration as a

20:27

designer, to create a learning product that others are

20:31

going to rely on to perform their job.

20:33

And that's fun because it's a true balance of being

20:39

my full authentic self based on what I don't know

20:42

as a learner and what I think I know as

20:45

a designer. And I depend on the representatives from the learning groups,

20:50

from the subject matter experts and the stakeholders to set

20:53

the tone and confirm that the content that I'm creating

20:56

is up to snuff. Right. They are all aligned. It makes sense while they're relying on me to lead

21:01

the design process, and that's a very symbiotic relationship that

21:05

I find fulfilling, fun and fruitful because we get to

21:08

collaborate and create something together that's really impactful.

21:12

I'm coming from this space of not knowing any of

21:14

this subject matter. They're coming from the space sometimes of not ever going

21:18

through a design process to create learning.

21:21

And so it creates this whole environment where we all

21:25

have to be vulnerable of what we know and what

21:27

we don't know. We have to challenge one another in those spaces so

21:31

that we can get to this end learning product that

21:34

is going to be useful for individuals.

21:38

And even though I want to add this, even though

21:40

I'm calling this something fun, this whole process that I'm

21:44

going through, I go through this process knowing that other

21:47

people are depending on the outcome of this creation that's

21:50

going to help them support them in their career.

21:52

And that's something that I don't take lightly.

21:55

How do you get started on something when you don't

21:58

know the topic?

21:59

Yeah, so that's where I'm going to go back to

22:02

those three Cs that I mentioned earlier, the three Cs

22:05

about conversing, connecting and collaborating.

22:08

If you are doing that throughout your process, it does

22:11

not matter what you know, what you don't know.

22:13

If you're conversing, connecting and collaborating, you're going to find

22:17

that information. You're going to know the information either by you asking

22:20

or someone coming to share it with you.

22:22

But you have to make yourself open to allow that

22:26

type of transaction to happen, to experience that type of

22:30

interaction on a project. And so a part of my reputation as an instructional

22:34

designer is I want to be known as a person

22:37

that will converse, connect and collaborate.

22:39

And so that invites other people to do the same

22:42

thing. So I'm there and I'm vulnerable.

22:45

I say, Hey, I know nothing about this subject matter,

22:48

nothing at all. But that's a value to you all, because I know

22:52

less than your learner. So I'm going to probably ask I'm going to be

22:55

asking you questions that you are going to assume that

22:59

everyone already knows. And so that's the value add to that.

23:03

And I think that if you're in this position of

23:05

working on a project in which you have no knowledge

23:08

on the subject matter, always remember that's a value to

23:12

the team, to the project, because you're going to ask

23:15

those questions that everyone else is assuming everyone already knows.

23:20

I really like your three Cs conversing, connecting and collaborating.

23:25

Can you speak a little bit more about that middle

23:27

one? The connecting one.

23:29

Yeah. When we connect, people think that, okay, I talked to

23:34

you, right? I had a conversation with you. So we're connected or I collaborated with you, so we're

23:39

connected, right? That's not what that is connected is intentionally in

23:44

the middle to bring the converse and the collaboration together,

23:47

because they both have to happen in a way that

23:52

after we work together, you still feel like I am

23:56

a resource for you, whether we're in the same organization,

24:00

in the same project. Like we are truly connected as professionals in this space

24:06

of learning and development, in this space of being working

24:10

in a professional capacity to support one another with our

24:13

knowledge and growth in a specific type of subject matter

24:17

or area, that's what connection is.

24:19

It goes beyond, okay, we're just having a conversation where

24:23

we're collaborating on a project. It's a true, okay, if I don't talk to you,

24:29

we're at the end of this project. It's done.

24:32

The door is known to still remain open for you

24:36

to pick up the phone, send an email, reach out,

24:38

ask a question. And that's the kind of stuff that you need to

24:42

build on your relationships and your reputation as an instructional

24:45

designer. Because the same people are in the circle of instructional

24:49

design and learning and development. We may be changing in different roles, but when you

24:54

are connected, it does not matter the time or the

24:58

duration or the position or the project.

25:01

None of that matters. I'm connected to this individual because I know them on

25:06

a professional level, on a personal level.

25:09

We are established. We are one another's knowledge support system for information that

25:15

they may need at any point in their career.

25:18

One of the bits of advice we give our students

25:21

is to find your niche in instructional design.

25:24

And I'm wondering how would you describe what your niche

25:27

is?

25:27

I would say. This is a hard one because there is a lot

25:32

when it comes to. Instructional design, I'm going to say mine is, it's an

25:39

unconventional one because probably if you were to give

25:41

this on like a survey or multiple choice test or

25:44

something like that, this would be like the option.

25:46

that likely wouldn't be listed.

25:48

But I'm going to say that it's learning new subject

25:51

matter. I am a natural consumer of knowledge and once I

25:55

learn something new, I have this obsessed yearning to share

25:59

it with others, which is it's turned out to be

26:01

something that has served me very well as an instructional designer

26:04

and even more effectively as a learning and development consultant.

26:08

So I would say my niche is really learning new

26:10

subject matter. And then also I would say I would add to

26:14

that working with SMEs that are known to be

26:20

difficult. I think that that is my other area of where

26:23

I have this skill set that is more niche of

26:27

if you are considering a project and you have a SME

26:31

on it that may be considered a little challenging.

26:35

I'm usually asked to be on those type of projects.

26:38

I'll just say that.

26:41

that's a very valuable skillset to have. We all know subject matter experts that are more more

26:44

difficult to work with.

26:45

And you know, what I find too Rebecca is a lot of times where we think that they're very challenging.

26:51

They tend to really, I find, have so much information

26:56

and knowledge and it's all in their head.

27:00

And I find not all of them, but most of

27:04

them, many of them that I've worked with really just

27:07

want people to get out the way they want to

27:11

say what they want to say. They want to say it how they want to say

27:14

it. And however it lands is how it lands.

27:17

They don't want to dress it up in any type

27:20

of particular way. As an instructional designer, you have to be okay with

27:24

that because the person who is giving you those pointed

27:28

answers, opinions, are critical things you're analyzing and very analytical

27:33

about it. That is more than likely your most valuable subject matter

27:38

expert, because they're saying things that other people may not

27:41

be saying. And so if you don't have the, the gumption to

27:47

sit through that and listen to it and allow it

27:50

to land the way that it's going, that it needs to,

27:52

that they're making it land. You may miss out on some very important learning nuggets

27:56

that your learners are going to need that you wouldn't

27:59

otherwise get from any other subject matter expert that

28:03

you're working with. So I tend to like to work very closely with

28:06

those type of SMEs because I find that a lot

28:10

of my content that I get from them is very

28:13

valuable.

28:13

What are the biggest challenges you face as an instructional designer?

28:17

I'm going to say keeping up with new tools and

28:20

technology. And the reason I say is because obviously there's so

28:24

many of them. When you learn a handful of new pieces of technology

28:29

the next day, there's new technology that's available.

28:32

And clients want you to know about they want you

28:35

to know what's the latest and greatest technology learning offerings.

28:38

They want to know how they can make their learning

28:41

more engaging, using available learning technological systems.

28:45

They want to know where do their systems integrate for

28:48

tracking and monitoring of performance.

28:51

They want to know.

28:52

And they're looking to IDs for this direction and guidance

28:56

and not necessarily looking to people in IT or developers

29:00

to do this because they recognize that, well, I've seen

29:03

developers, they design this, they create it, they develop it.

29:07

But the instructional designer is expected to know on a

29:11

technological level what those learning applications, tools and resources are.

29:16

They want a list of them. They want to know how they work and how they

29:18

can use them and how they can integrate them into

29:21

their learning platforms and in their performance so that they

29:25

can track everything. So when it comes to the implementation, they also expect

29:29

you to troubleshoot those technological problems or at a minimum,

29:33

be able to guide them through the process or offer

29:36

them recommendations. And I think that this is an area that is

29:39

very much overlooked a lot of times when it comes

29:42

to instructional design, because you may be fortunate enough to

29:45

work in a organization or have a project in which

29:48

that part of the the project is not assigned to

29:52

you. They may have someone that they gave that responsibility to,

29:57

but when you're out as a learning and development consultant,

30:00

the expectation is that you're going to come with new

30:04

technologies and tools for them to be able to leverage.

30:07

And you're going to be able to articulate it in

30:09

a way that helps them understand how they're going to

30:11

be able to use it to their best benefit.

30:13

And this goes back to my three Cs.

30:15

This is why conversing, connecting and collaborating are a

30:18

very typical task in the IDs day.

30:20

And so when you're talking about these, knowing these tools

30:23

and technologies and resources, when you converse, when you connect,

30:27

when you collaborate, you become more aware of what those

30:30

are versus staying to yourself, not being able.

30:33

To take in this type of information.

30:35

It also challenges the associated pieces of technology that's represented

30:40

to a large part of those risks that you need

30:42

to mitigate and those problems that you will find yourself

30:46

having to solve. I say to keep in mind, at every organization and

30:49

project or team experience, they will be different and they

30:53

will have their own set of challenges. Not all organizations or projects will have these challenges associated

30:58

to technology, but these are just a few that I

31:01

mentioned in here, just as an example, because this is

31:03

what I find to be the most challenging as an

31:06

instructional designer that's consulting out today.

31:09

What skills do you find most useful for your work?

31:13

Okay. Again, I'm going with some options that aren't listed on

31:17

the dropdown, your typical dropdown, some unconventional answers here.

31:21

I would say if being courageously curious is a skill,

31:27

that you will definitely need that and I'm going to

31:30

call courageous curiosity a skill because you can be curious,

31:36

but you have to be courageous in your curiosity.

31:39

And what I mean by that is that you can't

31:42

be afraid to ask questions and then question the answers

31:47

to those answers. Right, because you're looking for solutions.

31:53

But before you look for the solutions, you're trying to

31:55

verify if there's even a problem that can be solved

31:58

through learning. People are depending on you and they're dependent on you

32:02

to create these learning products. So you cannot be shy or bashful because you won't

32:08

get what you need. And if you don't get what you need as a

32:11

result, your learners won't get what they need either.

32:13

So it's very important for you to be courageously

32:16

curious and ask those questions.

32:19

The other skill that I would say I find most

32:21

useful, rapid research, rapid research.

32:25

And these are like action skills, like thinking you would

32:29

have on your resume. I'm courageously curious.

32:32

I'm a rapid researcher. So what I mean when I say rapid researcher, that

32:38

is basically being able to turn with the tide, right?

32:42

Because everything and everyone and everywhere is evolving and changing

32:50

right before our eyes every day. And so what, you know, to be the best technology

32:55

or tool or resource today just might not be tomorrow,

32:58

right? I mean, we get updates and changes all the time.

33:02

That's how fast things are moving and the learning strategies are changing to meet those changes with those technologies.

33:10

But more importantly, the learners needs. So it's important to have the skills that allows

33:15

you to stay current with learning approaches that enhance your

33:20

skills as a researcher so that you can become more

33:23

rapid. The two skills I say are most useful are

33:26

A learning and development consultant specifically is having a very

33:32

courageous in your curiosity and having that ability to rapidly

33:37

research. I have to say I love your alliterations.

33:41

I love to write. I can't help myself.

33:45

What do you wish you had learned sooner regarding instructional

33:49

design?

33:51

Oh, this is easy. This is an easy one.

33:54

It's probably going to sound like, ah, really?

33:56

But that it existed. I really wish that I knew that earlier.

34:01

In the beginning I shared my story about how I stumbled across

34:04

instructional design and I claimed it as my career without

34:07

knowing that it actually had a name, a methodology or

34:10

a science behind it. But had I known earlier what instructional design is, that

34:17

it existed, then I would have emerged myself into the practice sooner

34:23

with intention. And I think that's the beautiful position that a lot

34:28

of people, listeners right now on your podcast can get

34:32

from this, that a lot of other people that fell

34:35

into instructional design missed the boat on.

34:37

You can fall into the the space, the career, the

34:41

practice, the experience of being an instructional designer through intention.

34:46

There's a lot to be gained when you are intentional

34:49

about goals versus not doing and not knowing you're accomplishing

34:54

things linked to an unknown goal.

34:56

It just feels different. It makes you show up for the job more informed,

35:01

more prepared, more impactful. It just gives you another level of confidence, it allows you

35:07

to take yourself outside of being one who does not

35:10

know about instructional design and puts you in a

35:14

place where you are well informed and you know what

35:19

you can do. You need to listen to a podcast like Demystifying Instructional

35:23

Design, that you need to join a LinkedIn group with

35:27

instructional designers where you need to go because you are

35:30

more intentional about it. And you know what it's called?

35:34

I would agree completely. I think that many of us wish we knew instructional

35:38

design was a career path before we fell into it.

35:42

What advice would you give to new instructional designers?

35:46

Hmm. I'm going to say research, explore and learn.

35:51

Oh, that's just really it, it's really that simple.

35:55

Research, for one thing, because as I mentioned earlier, things

35:59

are changing. It's evolving. Everything's changing so fast.

36:02

You always have to. This is going back to being that rapid researcher,

36:05

just stay in the know, just stay up to date

36:08

with what's going on. If you're in a program for instructional design right now

36:13

or you're working through some training to enhance your skills

36:17

as an instructional designer, or perhaps you're working through some

36:20

type of certification related to instructional design.

36:24

Once you accomplish that, it does not stop.

36:29

It is ongoing. And if you have the misconception that once you've accomplished

36:34

those things that you're done, you are making a very

36:38

big mistake. You have to continue researching.

36:42

I've been in this field for 20 plus years now

36:45

and the research just never stops.

36:48

I eat, sleep and wake up researching about learning and

36:53

instructional design and its impact.

36:56

And as you're doing that research, I also have the

36:59

advice for you to explore. And don't just cover yourself in the research, but explore.

37:05

What I mean by that is put yourself in the

37:07

learner seat, in a learning seat, continue to strive for those experiences as a learner because

37:15

this is one of the fields in which instructional design

37:18

is one of those careers that gives back more

37:23

than you put out and I don't know how many other careers are out there

37:27

that are like this. This is a career that gives you more than you

37:32

could ever, that you could ever possibly give out.

37:35

And the reason why that is the case is that

37:39

every job, every program, every course, every learning experience that

37:45

you create for someone, something, an organization, else.

37:50

Right? You're receiving that as a learner.

37:55

On a personal level, there's this professional side that's happening,

37:59

but there's this personal. You're taking that in and it's building you as a

38:03

human being working this earth, the knowledge that you have

38:07

that is random. Sometimes I'll have conversations with people and they're like, how

38:12

do you know that? Oh I wrote a training program on this, it's random

38:16

information. Like, why do you know that? I don't know why I know that.

38:19

I don't remember that. I remember I was driving and it was some traffic

38:24

and it was construction going on. And I mentioned to my husband, I said, Oh, they're

38:28

laying down the pipe. They have to make sure everything is safe.

38:32

And I think that what they're doing there is they're checking to see if the welding is done.

38:36

He's a welder. He's a CWI. Oh, yeah.

38:40

I wrote some training for inspectors.

38:42

Don't worry about that. The wealth of knowledge and the way that it just

38:45

adds to you as a person. I would have not known anything like that ever.

38:50

I have no interest in being a welder at any

38:52

point, but I'm interested in the knowledge that welders need

38:55

to know in order to be welders.

38:58

Right. That exploration of that and that learning and that research

39:03

just keep doing that. And if you do that as a learner, it adds

39:07

to in your professional capacity as a designer.

39:11

I love that example. The final question I like to ask is, what's your

39:16

prediction for the future of instructional design?

39:20

Rebecca I like this question because it's actually a question

39:24

that I posed to some guests on my podcast Training Trends

39:26

where I converse with different learning and development professionals

39:30

to glean in insights for different learning tips, theories, techniques

39:34

and technologies to keep the L&D community current with industry

39:38

trends. And through all of those different conversations that I've had

39:42

with different people that I've talked to and the research that

39:44

I've gleaned, insight regarding the future of instructional design, I

39:47

think that it's going to be more learner driven and

39:51

less instructor or facilitator driven.

39:54

We see this. That's not anything that's profound, right?

39:57

But it's going to require that instructional designers have a

40:02

stronger grasp on technology, which you've heard me talk about

40:06

in some of my earlier responses to your questions, is

40:09

really going to have us think about and be able

40:12

to wrap technology in a way that allows us to

40:16

understand how it works and the ways that it can

40:19

be programed to orchestrate individual learning experiences based on capability.

40:24

And when I say capability, I mean the emotional, psychological,

40:30

intellectual, physiological aspects of the learner will all be a

40:35

part of the what I'm going to say, like a

40:38

learning prescription. Right. And I know that we look at these things already

40:43

in the learning field.

40:45

Right? We have to think about the emotional, psychological, intellectual or

40:49

physiological. But in the future, I believe it's going to be

40:53

something that takes us out of this war this dormant

40:56

state of making those considerations and factoring those in and

41:00

put us in a more active, responsible role.

41:03

Because instead of conducting a needs analysis for a group

41:07

of learners, we're going to have to start leveraging technological

41:11

tools to prescribe learning experiences similar to a doctor prescribing

41:15

medication to a patient. We will have to be more well versed on the

41:20

components as it relates to learner experiences, because potentially the

41:25

new learning techniques and technologies like AR and VR, they're

41:29

going to require us to consider all of these different

41:32

aspects, which is where we have to really make sure

41:37

we're researching, exploring and learning.

41:40

And I also think that the name instructional designer will

41:45

change to something that's going to reflect the actions and

41:47

the behaviors associated to the role as a result of

41:51

these technological influences associated to

41:54

what we're expected to do.

41:56

Can you tell us a little bit more about your

41:58

podcast?

42:00

Yeah, sure. So Training Trends is a podcast that focuses on looking

42:05

at the trends of the learning and development community.

42:10

We talk about different tips, theories, techniques and technologies to

42:13

explore ways that things are trending and changing towards in

42:18

the future. And the podcast is available every Wednesday.

42:24

A new episode comes out every Wednesday.

42:26

It's available on your podcast platforms.

42:30

And I talk to a different guest experts, different people

42:33

from the L&D space, people outside of the L&D space,

42:36

because I think that our conversations about learning and development

42:40

just, just learning in general, not just keeping it focused

42:44

on adult learners, but education as a whole is changing.

42:50

It's shifting. And I think it's very important to come outside of

42:55

a box and talk to everyone any touchpoint of education.

43:00

Again, going back to my three Cs, converse, connect and

43:04

collaborate. And so that's what I that's what I put myself

43:08

in the center of being able to do to converse

43:10

with different people across the world, across different countries and

43:15

different industries, connecting with them and collaborating to see what

43:19

everyone is doing and where they also think the future

43:23

of learning and development will be.

43:25

Excellent. Thank you very much Yourel for joining us on Demystifying Instructional

43:29

Design.

43:31

Thank you so much for having me, Rebecca.

43:33

I enjoyed this.

43:34

You've been listening to Demystifying Instructional Design, a podcast where

43:38

I interview instructional designers about what they do.

43:41

I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host. Show notes are posted as a blog post on Demystifying

43:47

Instructional Design dot com. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe or leave a

43:51

comment in the show notes blog post.