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Welcome back to Demystifying Instructional Design podcast, where I interview

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various instructional designers to figure out what instructional designers do.

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I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host.

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This episode contains the final part of my interview with

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Lance Eaton, where he talks about what he's looking for

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when hiring instructional designers. And I'm going to pivot our conversation a little bit,

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because you mentioned you've had experience as a hiring manager

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for instructional designers and so what do you look for

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when you're hiring an instructional designer?

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It depends on the job. So going back to that earlier conversation of Am I

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looking for a course designer? Somebody who is a course

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developer? Am I looking for a project manager or am I

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looking for a faculty coach? It will vary on that because I think there's slightly

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different skills within each of those with the course creator

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I'm looking for, either in the interview or in the

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work, like somebody who is either comfortable or enjoys or

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finds value in repetitive tasks.

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They're not mindless by any means, but there is a

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repetition. There is a 'this is how this process is going

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to go', even though it doesn't always go like that. This is how this process is going to go.

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You're going to continually be plugging these things in, and

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there may be other opportunities to expand beyond that.

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But I will be looking for somebody that is comfortable

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with that and isn't going to be bored by that

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or find that to be less than interesting.

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And that may pop up in a variety of ways on their resume from I think sometimes we see some

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of that with people who are in multimedia or people

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who do film. These aren't the only examples, but these are the examples

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I'm calling to mind. If you are producing film like there's production, post-production and

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there's a very similar dynamic to course design.

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And so look for those type of signals of they

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do this and they're comfortable with doing this kind of

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repetitive work. If it's a project manager, I'm interested in hearing from

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What are the types of projects that they have done

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and really looking for?

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And again, depending on the institution and knowing that there

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are different types of courses looking for somebody who has

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some kind of project development experience, it doesn't have to

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be formal project manager or anything like that, but has

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worked with certain things from beginning to end, but has

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also been able to do it in different modalities because

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depending on the institution, they are going to end up

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working on several different types of projects at a

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given time. And the faculty coach type person, I'm often looking for

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somebody who is really thinking about that relationship based dynamic,

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is demonstrating that when they're coming to do their presentation,

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are they just showing the actual or are they really

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trying to think about who is the person, who are

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the people in the room? And how do I make them feel comfortable about whatever

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it is that whatever it is that they're covering. On

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the project manager, I was also going to mention.

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And actually, t's true, even with the faculty

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coaches, how evidence of working with people who may be

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resistant and how they work with them, how they bring

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them along and not push them along.

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It's harder to demonstrate, but I think you can still

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get at it in conversation of asking for experiences of how

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they are by the person and not in front of

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or dragging the person.

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What can a new instructional designer do to stand out?

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That is a good question, I think. So one of your first questions is what's your origin

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story? And I think having a strong, clear narrative because we

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all fall into this again, nobody sets out to be

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an instructional designer. So can you identify a very clear line between your

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work history, your passions and why you want to do

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this particular role at this particular institute around instructional design?

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I think really giving time to think about that narrative,

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one story and how their work contributes to it.

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I think a lot about it, as I wrote on

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my blog a while back, called the castle in the

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tapestry. And the way that I talk about it is we

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are very much in our society driven towards the hustle.

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Do whatever you can as much as you can, because

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late stage capitalism, everything feels like it's, we're losing everything

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and that's the pandemic. And all of that has just made it feel like

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everything that we have is so elusive. So we've got to accumulate everything, experiences, background, et cetera,

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all of that. But I think about these things as a tapestry and

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really being able to look at everything I've done and

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how do I weave it into what my story is?

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How does it all makes sense? How does the fact that I am in a doctoral

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program I am teaching and I am an instructional designer?

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How does that all work together? How does that work together with the fact that I

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am on a board of directors for a small theater

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in Brooklyn? Like, how do I make sense of these things?

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So I often look for being able to communicate a

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strong narrative. The attunement to what the role really is.

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Again, looking at that job description, doing one's networking as

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one can to figure out, like, what is this actual

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role?

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I am making courses reproducing just that repetitive

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or rote dynamic? Am I really like managing all the moving pieces?

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Or am I working with a faculty member one to

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one to really encourage or move them forward?

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How can I demonstrate my understanding of that in that

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I'm really interested in doing that? Those stand out.

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And within that, I think a diverse experience or a

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range of experiences, this goes with a narrative because I

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come from this idea of all learning is relevant.

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Having that resume or CV that shows like I'm a

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dynamic being and it's OK, like, I think those do

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make strong instructional designers.

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I have friends who went into college to be an

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accountant. Twenty years later, they are still an accountant.

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They've moved up a little, but that is their straight trajectory.

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I appreciate a bit more variation because I think that

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breeds some of the lateral thinking that breeds some of

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the ability to cross connect, to be that deejay and

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really draw upon these different things for for the kind

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of work that we do.

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Mm-Hmm. If you were to look at an IDs portfolio, what

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are the things you're looking for.

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I look at not just can they do the thing,

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right? Oh, they can make, they can make something, they can

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make an interactive. Are they going the extra mile of somehow extending?

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What are they thinking about? What is the pedagogy involved in there?

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Or extending thinking a little bit more about what they're

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also trying to communicate with? So I'll give a good example.

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In my work right now, I will make instructional videos

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so I can do the actual task. But I'm also often mindful about what are the materials

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that I'm using within. So it isn't just I was demonstrating how to use

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annotations and Google Docs, and so I'm making a video

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about how to use Google Docs. But then I'm also thinking about what am I annotating

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and trying to think about what is interesting, useful, relevant

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information for our students to know or for our faculty

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to know. And in this case, there was a resource that I

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knew a lot of faculty members are using that I

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think is a little problematic.

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And so I was using that resource and then I

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was using the common feature to say, Oh, maybe the

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student was saying this comment.

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So it was layering the learning there. Maybe nobody ever picked up on it.

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But I was also recognizing they may be paying attention

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to the piece that we're looking at. And therefore this might give them not just how did

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you do annotation, but also, oh, maybe I should rethink using

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this particular resource. So similarly, I'm looking at is there embedded wisdom beyond

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just look, I made this video or I made this

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interactive? Is there any additional pedagogical ideas going on behind it

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because the tools can be learned?

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But are you thinking about how they interface with the

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type of teaching, the type of learning, the type of

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students? And so that's what I am typically looking for.

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Is there anything else that shows me that there's an awareness besides just creating this to show that you can

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use it? So that's more around, like the technology pieces that I

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might see in a portfolio. Otherwise, I'm looking for language and ideas that reflect strong

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advocating and connection with the students and strong advocating, and

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connection with the faculty and not necessarily seeing that as

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at odds with one another. Because I think in some ways, our relationship to the

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faculty is very similar to the faculty relationship to the

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students. So if I can be on both of their sides,

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then they can be on both of each other's sides

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as well and advocates for one another. So those are things that I'm looking for, but I

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think there's a good amount of instructional designers out

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there who have become very interested in things like universal

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design for learning and open pedagogy and critical digital pedagogy.

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And these other things that are making us really think

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about and be mindful of as we introduce tools, as

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we introduce practices, are we introducing harms?

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And I'm looking for somebody who is thinking about and

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aware of the benefits of technology, the challenges and the

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potential harms? And how do we think about that for our students

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and our faculty?

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Thinking beyond just looking at the ability to use the

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tech right? I have one last question that I'd like to ask

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everybody. And that's what's your prediction for the future of instructional

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design?

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I prediction for instructional design, which I'm listening to Adam

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Grant's. Think again, so I know I will be entirely wrong

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at whatever my predictions are. But I'm OK with that.

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I see. And again, I will focus largely in higher ED because

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it's more of my realm. I see a few things happening.

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I see it becoming and I feel like I've seen

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this happen already a little bit in different pockets, especially

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with the large major universities out there.

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There's an element of skilling, of becoming very much just,

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you put the content in the course. And with that, of course, becomes less money, less

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professional development and stuff. So I see there is this one avenue and maybe

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those become the future stepping stones.

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Or you work that and then you move into something

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that pays more. But I see very much a cookie cutter automatic

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approach that limits the dynamism that any instructional designer will

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bring. Very much like those institutions limit

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the dynamism that any instructor brings to those courses because

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they make, the courses is very strongly defined,

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Tthe instructor has no real say over the curriculum, over

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the assignments. They're there to give feedback in discussion.

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I think there will be pockets where that also happens with instructional designers.

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I think there'll be some ways that as that happens,

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we will see, like with other industries and especially because

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of COVID. People from other parts of the world being able to

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acquire those jobs and do those jobs because much of

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this is being done virtually. And so if you don't even have to pay an

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instructional designer, 40000, but you can pay them 20000 because

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it's in a country where that is much more money,

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I think we'll see that happen. And on one hand, I think that's amazing because that

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brings in these really interesting global perspectives.

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On the other hand, I don't know that they're going

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to be done in a way that is as beneficially

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inclusive for everybody involved. I see within other parts of higher ED, much more

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so than previously, your instructional design team and your center

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for Teaching and Learning Teams become one.

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There's places where this already exists. There's places where they're just coming to it or they

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came to it in the last two or three years. So I think we'll see a continued trend of that,

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especially as whatever comes after COVID, because there will be

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something else that sends us back into our homes or

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because that's the instability of at least the climate for

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a foreseeable future. I think you'll see that happen.

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I think I think in the near future, we will

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continue to see some level of exodus of instructional designers

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from higher ED just trying to recover from what happened

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because I certainly have seen that within my circle of

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contacts. There's probably throughout this past, since about February, at least

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once a month hearing from somebody who's just, I'm done

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here. I actually literally had that. Have an email from a colleague about that today.

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I can't do this type of work in traditional higher

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ed anymore. That's part of why I ended up at College Unbound,

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which is a nontraditional, higher ed institution and it's a

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fairly new one, is because they are really looking at

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and thinking about this differently and thinking through the lens

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of equity and care, not just for students, but for

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faculty and for staff. And then I sadly feel much of what has been

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learned will be forgotten in this pandemic.

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And so will the recognition that instructional designers gained during

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this will be pulled back a bit and they won't

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be recognized or brought in many of the ways that

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they should be, that they should be considered part of

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the teaching teams throughout any institution.

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I hope you're wrong on that one.

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Me too. I yes, I 100 percent hope I am wrong.

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I get worried because as we look at different types

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of signs, just make me leery of institutions are, they

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always are, but they will continue to be like, This

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is the worst time we've ever been cash-strapped. And the ways that plays out around different policies and

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supports in the assumptions that just because people survived pandemic

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survived teaching in COVID in this pandemic and these different

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formats, they now know online learning and I think people

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did amazing things. I also think many of them were just were just

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trying to survive. And so those aren't the same things.

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I'm glad they survived. I'm glad they did all the amazing things that they

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did. And yet at the same time, there's still so much

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more for us to think about and figure out with

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teaching and learning that it should never just be on

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the shoulders of the faculty member. There should be teams there to support their teaching and

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learning. And I just worry about institutions also believing and uplifting

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that. But yes, I hope that I am.

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I hope I am horribly wrong on that.

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Thank you very much, Lance, for your time and for

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all of your insights.

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Thank you. This is a pleasure.

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You've been listening to Demystifying Instructional Design, a podcast where

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I interview instructional designers about what they do.

15:06

I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host. If you or someone you know might like to be

15:10

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My Guest form. Available on demystifying instructional design

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