0:01

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

0:03

Hello, I'm Lauren Lavern and

0:05

this is the Desert Island Discs podcast.

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Every week I ask my guest to

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choose the eight tracks, book and luxury

0:12

they'd want to take with them if

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they were cast away to a Desert

0:17

Island. And for right reasons, the music

0:19

is shorter than the original broadcast. I

0:21

hope you enjoy listening. My

0:46

castaway this week is the writer

0:48

William Boyd. He's the award-winning author

0:51

of 18 novels, five short story

0:53

collections, and numerous screen plays, which

0:55

have made him one of Britain's

0:57

most successful writers. He's made the

0:59

genre of whole-life novels pretty much

1:02

his own, writing four of these

1:04

cradle-to-grave narratives, including any human heart,

1:06

which became a laughter-winning television series.

1:08

Perhaps he was always destined to

1:10

become a writer. Growing up in

1:12

the 1960s between the family home

1:15

in West Africa, where his father

1:17

worked as a doctor and his Scottish

1:19

boarding school, he developed what he's called

1:21

the curious eye of the permanent visitor.

1:23

His critically acclaimed breakthrough, A Good Man

1:26

in Africa, drew on the world of

1:28

his childhood in Ghana and Nigeria.

1:30

His books combine broad historical sweeps with

1:32

the intricacies of everyday life and interrogate

1:35

what he calls the vast indifference of

1:37

the universe. The role of luck, good

1:39

and bad, also intrigues him, particularly how

1:41

his characters deal with the folks in

1:44

the road that go on to determine

1:46

their destiny. He says, we are all

1:48

walking on thin ice. It can crack

1:50

at any time. I think if you

1:53

do realise that, you go through life

1:55

with a totally different point of view.

1:57

It can be empowering. You have to

1:59

relish. present. Do things now. William Boyd,

2:02

welcome to Desert Island. Thank you very

2:04

much, very happy to be here. So

2:06

William, you have been described as hard

2:08

to classify as a writer because you

2:10

have written so many different types of

2:13

novels, wide range of styles. How do

2:15

you describe yourself, when people ask? Well,

2:17

I call myself a serious comic novelist.

2:19

I do see the world through a

2:21

comic lens. It can be a dark

2:24

lens, a darkly comic, or it can

2:26

be absurdly comic. I don't see life

2:28

as a tragedy. I see it as...

2:30

absurd, something to laugh at. And you

2:32

often spend years researching before you actually

2:35

put pen to paper and then when

2:37

you do that you write your first

2:39

draft in long hand. What kind of

2:41

resources do you turn to when you're

2:43

first thinking about a new novel? Well

2:46

I get the idea and then I

2:48

start researching it and usually that involves

2:50

buying matters of books much to my

2:52

wife's irritation because we have a serious

2:54

book storage problem. Yes I mean there

2:56

all sorts of things are helpful. I

2:59

wrote this novel a whole life novel

3:01

called Sweet Cress which is a story

3:03

of a woman's life in fact from

3:05

the point of view of a woman

3:07

photographer through the 1920s into the 1970s.

3:10

And a friend of mine was standing

3:12

at a bus stop in Southwark. and

3:14

he noticed a scrap of paper on

3:16

the ground. He picked it up. It

3:18

was a photograph of a young woman

3:21

in the 1920s wearing a bathing suit

3:23

and standing in a pond somewhere. And

3:25

he sent it to me. because he

3:27

knew I was collecting anonymous photographs. And

3:29

I used that as a frontist piece

3:32

of sweet caress and I said this

3:34

random woman who was found near a

3:36

bus stop is my character. So each

3:38

book that you write generates what sounds

3:40

like a mini library of its own

3:43

as you mentioned much to much to

3:45

your wife's displeasure. So tell me how

3:47

extensive is this? How many have you

3:49

gotten? How many does each book? creative,

3:51

you see? Well, I think I must

3:54

have about 10,000 books in our house

3:56

and some of them in boxes because

3:58

the books I buy for... than individual

4:00

novels in a way ceased to be

4:02

interesting once a novel is written, but

4:05

you can't just chuck books on a

4:07

skip, you know, you have to look

4:09

after them and cherish them, but I'm

4:11

not going to read the history of

4:13

Turnpike Roads in North of England and

4:15

19th century again, but it was very

4:18

useful at the time to cherry-pick a

4:20

few facts out of. You begin your

4:22

novels with the ending in mind. Why

4:24

do you write like that? I think

4:26

the reason is simply fear of writers

4:29

block in a way or else fear

4:31

of abandoning a novel. A lot of

4:33

writers start novels and they're not going

4:35

well and they just stop them and

4:37

put them in a drawer and wait

4:40

to see if they can kickstart them

4:42

again. But I've never abandoned a novel

4:44

because of this method I have and

4:46

then I can write... with confidence not

4:48

particularly quickly but I know where I'm

4:51

going and I have no excuse not

4:53

to write more importantly if I'm in

4:55

the middle of chapter 11 and not

4:57

feeling great that day I've got no

4:59

excuse I have to buckle down and

5:02

keep going it's a doggy business I

5:04

have to buckle down and keep going

5:06

it's a doggy business you need a

5:08

lot of stamina to write and you

5:10

can see the last page on the

5:13

horizon you've got to get yourself there

5:15

yeah and sometimes I want the reader

5:17

to experience So let's get started, your

5:19

first choice, what's it going to be?

5:21

It's by Stephen Sondheim. And this is

5:24

from Sunday in the park with George,

5:26

which is an extraordinary piece of work,

5:28

unique in musical theatre, I think, a

5:30

surah painting coming to life in front

5:32

of your eyes. And this is a

5:34

song called Sunday. And it's one of

5:37

these songs that I think almost makes

5:39

you, not cry, but brings tears to

5:41

your eyes, something about the sequence of

5:43

notes that has that effect. Sunday

6:15

from Stephen Sondheim's Sunday in the

6:18

park with George, performed by Mandy

6:20

Patinkin and the original Broadway cast.

6:22

William Boyd, you were born in

6:24

1952 in Ghana, West Africa, which

6:26

back then was a British colony

6:28

known as the Gold Coast. Your

6:30

father Sandy was a doctor who

6:33

specialised in tropical medicine and he

6:35

worked at one of the country's

6:37

universities in Accra, the capital. He

6:39

was Scottish, from Fife, as was

6:41

your mother Evelyn. How did they

6:43

find life as expats? a rather

6:45

idyllic life, to be honest, because

6:47

you had a big house, you

6:50

had lots of servants, of course,

6:52

in those days we had a

6:54

cook, gardener, and the great thing

6:56

about British colonies in West Africa

6:58

is they were totally integrated. There

7:00

was absolutely no racial tension at

7:02

all. We lived in a rather

7:05

nice house on the edge of

7:07

what's called Orchard Bush, which is

7:09

sort of Savannah, and I just

7:11

wandered around and played games, I

7:13

had friends, and get on my

7:15

bike and go cycling off somewhere.

7:17

No mobile phones, and my mother

7:19

would say, make sure you're home

7:22

by one, darling. And then, as

7:24

I got older, and as we

7:26

moved from Ghana to Nigeria, and

7:28

I became a teenager, I could

7:30

walk through... the centre of Ebaden,

7:32

a huge city in Western Nigeria

7:34

at midnight. Can you imagine how

7:37

exotic that was? Get the odd

7:39

shout at me, you know, white

7:41

boy or something like that, but

7:43

completely unafraid and everybody really friendly.

7:45

In fact, when I look back

7:47

on it now, I realise how

7:49

extraordinary that experience was. And tell

7:51

me a little bit more about

7:54

your dad. Were the two of

7:56

you close? Yes, we were close.

7:58

He died very young. He died

8:00

when he died when he was

8:02

58. And I had been away

8:04

at... that boarding school for you

8:06

know, at least 10 years. before

8:09

he died. And so we didn't

8:11

see that much of each other,

8:13

but we got on very well,

8:15

but he was a classic East

8:17

Coast Scot in a way, and

8:19

he... always encouraged me to don't

8:21

get married until you're 30, always

8:23

get a proper job with a

8:26

decent pension, always save one-sixth of

8:28

your income, advice I completely ignored,

8:30

but you know my great regret

8:32

is that he never saw my

8:34

success as a writer because he

8:36

was highly dubious that I would

8:38

ever make it in such a

8:41

ridiculous profession, but I would love

8:43

to have proved him wrong but

8:45

that it wasn't to be. As

8:47

you mentioned William you moved from

8:49

Ghana to abandoned Nigeria where your

8:51

father worked at a much bigger

8:53

university and your mother became a

8:55

French teacher there. Tell me about

8:58

her. What would she like? Well

9:00

she lived to a ripe old

9:02

age my mum. She died at

9:04

the age of 92 and she

9:06

was... a devoted mother and devoted

9:08

wife, but because she was working

9:10

in the university and behind me

9:13

and my sisters, as it were,

9:15

left home, she thought, what am

9:17

I going to do? And so

9:19

she did a degree in French

9:21

and English, and then she ended

9:23

up as a teacher of French

9:25

in Nigerian schools, which she found

9:27

incredibly satisfying. But she, when my

9:30

father died and we left Nigeria,

9:32

she went to... teach in a

9:34

school in Switzerland, which was like

9:36

a whole different chapter of her

9:38

life. And she sort of changed.

9:40

She became more sophisticated. She became

9:42

more sophisticated and European, but then

9:45

in Switzerland you have to retire

9:47

at 62 if you're a woman.

9:49

So she came back to Scotland

9:51

and then started another chapter. That's

9:53

exactly. She became sort of extramural

9:55

student at the St. Andrew's University,

9:57

going to courses and writing essays.

9:59

And so she wrote. She wrote

10:02

novels which I've read which are

10:04

incredibly sentimental and with absolute 100%

10:06

guaranteed happy endings. So there's no

10:08

sort of irony. darkness in her

10:10

work but they never got published

10:12

but maybe it's I get whatever

10:14

my artistic side from her because

10:17

she grew up in a very

10:19

interesting family her father was the

10:21

editor of the Scottish Sunday Express

10:23

and two of her sisters became

10:25

artists and my cousin's artists and

10:27

architects so on the Smith side

10:29

is where you find the art.

10:31

On the Boyd side, they're all

10:34

serious professional Scots, you know, with

10:36

proper jobs, with a good pension.

10:38

It's time for disc number two,

10:40

William. What have you chosen? It's

10:42

Fermi Kooti, who I think is

10:44

a wonderful artist, but I saw

10:46

his dad play, Fella Kooti. He

10:49

came up to a baden to

10:51

do a concert. This must have

10:53

been the very... late 60s early

10:55

70s and fell acuity came to

10:57

town but he was four hours

10:59

late for his concert and a

11:01

riot was about to break out

11:03

and then he came on stage

11:06

with this enormous band that he

11:08

had and he said I'm going

11:10

to play till dawn and relax

11:12

so it was one of the

11:14

great concerts of my life and

11:16

it's interesting to see how the

11:18

torch has been passed onto his

11:21

son Femi the title is sorry

11:23

sorry and it's actually goes on

11:25

to say sorry for Nigeria, sorry

11:27

for Africa. That's the plaintiff you

11:29

like of the songs he's singing,

11:31

but it's got such fantastic rhythm

11:33

and energies to it that you

11:35

kind of forget in a way

11:38

that he's making a political point.

11:56

Sorry sorry famicuity. Will you avoid

11:58

you spend the school holidays with

12:00

your family in Scotland, how did

12:02

you juggle your two lives? In

12:04

later life you've talked about being

12:06

deracinated, uprooted. Did you consider Ghana

12:08

your home? Obviously it wasn't my

12:11

country and we were strangers if

12:13

you like visitors to it. So

12:15

I wasn't at home there, but

12:17

I knew how Ghana worked. I

12:19

knew how these African cities worked

12:21

much better than I knew how

12:23

Edinburgh worked or how Aberdeen worked.

12:26

So I always felt more at

12:28

home in Africa than I did

12:30

in the UK. And I remember

12:32

once I must have come back

12:34

on leave before the school holidays

12:36

ended, and I walked past... a

12:38

school in St. Andrew's full of

12:40

kids my age who were playing

12:43

in the playground and of course

12:45

they couldn't understand what I was

12:47

doing not at school so it

12:49

got shouts and yells and I

12:51

felt alien funnily enough because I

12:53

was still living on my kind

12:55

of African time and African persona

12:57

and I suddenly felt strange and

13:00

a bit unwelcome actually and it

13:02

may be because you're always felt

13:04

you're on these... outside looking in.

13:06

Maybe that's a good position for

13:08

a novelist to adopt, you know,

13:10

so I think it may have

13:12

helped me scrutinize the world in

13:14

a slightly different way as well.

13:17

And what about your parents? Did

13:19

they find it difficult fitting into

13:21

Scotland in the way they once

13:23

had? Yes, I remember once I

13:25

was out in Edinburgh with my

13:27

father. In Africa, he was a

13:29

very significant... figure and revered by

13:31

his patience. And I remember him

13:34

buying a newspaper and fumbling with

13:36

his change because he wasn't familiar

13:38

with British coinage and I suddenly

13:40

saw him as a kind of

13:42

ordinary man instead of this godlike

13:44

figure who's curing people in Africa.

13:46

The family moved to Nigeria from

13:49

Ghana in 1964 but of course

13:51

in 1967 the Nigerian civil war,

13:53

the Biafran war, began. At what

13:55

point did you realise what was

13:57

happening? I think I realize it

13:59

was going on when our next-door

14:01

neighbours dug us. slit trench at

14:03

the bottom of their garden because

14:06

there was a fear that the

14:08

tiny little Biafran Air Force which

14:10

only consisted of three light planes

14:12

was going to bomb Nigerian federal

14:14

cities. Didn't happen in fact, but

14:16

you couldn't escape the war. So

14:18

I would get on a bus

14:20

in Abadin and there'd be... 20

14:23

soldiers there with a Kalashnikovs and

14:25

FN rifles. And one great event,

14:27

which I really did shape and

14:29

change my thinking, was I was

14:31

learning to drive, and we used

14:33

to drive on deserted roads at

14:35

the edge of the campus with

14:37

my father teaching me. And we

14:40

were driving home, and he took

14:42

a shortcut. And we passed a

14:44

roadblock, a very flimsy roadblock. And

14:46

my father spotted its screech to

14:48

a halt, but out of the

14:50

bushes came six or seven. drunk

14:52

soldiers with their AK-47s shouting and

14:54

screaming at us because they thought

14:57

we were trying to avoid the

14:59

roadblocks. They ordered us out of

15:01

the car, guns pointing at us.

15:03

And that moment I thought this

15:05

could all go horribly wrong because

15:07

they were out of control. There

15:09

was no officer. We were alone

15:12

on a road in the bush.

15:14

My father, to his great credit,

15:16

said, call out a roadblock. You

15:18

useless bunch of soldiers. And he

15:20

upbraided them. and they started to

15:22

laugh and the whole thing was

15:24

diffused. But I've never forgotten that

15:26

moment of knife edge, uh-oh, this

15:29

could all end very, very badly.

15:31

It's affected my work and it's

15:33

affected the way I look at

15:35

conflict and the way I understand

15:37

wars, because even though I was

15:39

never in any great danger, I

15:41

did live in a country that

15:43

was tearing itself apart in a

15:46

civil war and saw and had

15:48

friends in the Biafran army and

15:50

heard their stories. And I realized

15:52

that real war is nothing like

15:54

the movies. And I actually wrote

15:56

a novel a few years later,

15:58

and I was at university, which

16:00

was called Against the Day, which

16:03

was a very experimental war novel,

16:05

which was trying to somehow... transmute

16:07

my experiences in Nigeria into a

16:09

work of fiction. Never got published

16:11

quite rightly, but I did pillage

16:13

it for another novel I wrote

16:15

about War in Africa called An

16:17

Ice Cream War, my second novel,

16:20

but it's the First World War

16:22

in Africa. But everything that's crazy

16:24

and surreal and out of control

16:26

in my novel came from my

16:28

thinking and my experiences in Nigeria

16:30

at the end of the 60s.

16:32

So it was a... a life-changing

16:35

moment or an art-changing moment for

16:37

me. And Africa continued to inspire

16:39

your work. I'm thinking of your

16:41

first published novel, A Good Man

16:43

in Africa. Yes, I'd written two

16:45

short stories featuring this rather overweight

16:47

drunken English diplomat in a country

16:49

that resembles Nigeria, which I called

16:52

Kinjanja. And by then I had

16:54

published quite a few short stories

16:56

in magazines. I had them broadcast

16:58

on the BBC. And I sent...

17:00

the collection off to Hamish Hamilton

17:02

publishers and two of the stories

17:04

featured this drunken diplomat called Morgan

17:06

Leafy and I said as a

17:09

PS by the way I've written

17:11

a novel about this man and

17:13

Had you? I hadn't, no. It's

17:15

lying. And my eventual editor wrote

17:17

back saying, well, we'd rather publish

17:19

the novel before we published the

17:21

short stories. It's a great day

17:23

for me, but I told this

17:26

white lie. And so I told

17:28

another white lie, saying the manuscripts

17:30

in appalling state, I need to

17:32

retype it. And I wrote a

17:34

good man in Africa in a

17:36

kind of white heat of dynamism

17:38

in about six or seven weeks.

17:40

Thank you, Morgan leafy. William it's

17:43

time to go to the music

17:45

your third choice what are we

17:47

going to hear next and why

17:49

are you taking it along to

17:51

the island a way down the

17:53

river sung by Allison Kraus this

17:55

is a song that sort of

17:58

represents a Scottish side of my

18:00

life experiences even though it's sung

18:02

by a bluegrass singer from America

18:04

but it's a song that's based

18:06

on the poem by Robert Louis

18:08

Stevenson and has a kind of

18:10

foky Scottish feel to it. Alison

18:34

Kraus, a way down the river.

18:36

William Boyd, you were nine I

18:38

think when your parents sent you

18:40

to boarding school in Scotland. Looking

18:43

back, how do you think that

18:45

shaped you? It's funny, I think

18:47

in a good way it made

18:49

me very independent and I think

18:51

it makes you very self-reliant. But

18:54

there's no doubt that growing up

18:56

in a society that only has

18:58

one sex, it can turn sour.

19:00

And there were examples of... what

19:02

I would call fascism, pure and

19:05

simple, in the house I was

19:07

in, we were terrorised. But as

19:09

you got older, my older boys,

19:11

you know, they'd steal your stuff,

19:13

they'd break up your desk, they'd

19:15

bully you. So when your housemaster

19:18

went... back to his flat. It

19:20

became Lord of the Flies in

19:22

a way, you know, and so

19:24

you had to struggle to survive,

19:26

but if you were a strapping

19:29

lad and good at games, you

19:31

had a better chance than the

19:33

weaker brethren. So... And where did

19:35

you fit? I was good at

19:37

games, thank goodness. You took your

19:40

A-levels and after that in 1970

19:42

you had started thinking about becoming

19:44

an artist. So how did your

19:46

parents react to that idea? You

19:48

described their kind of different temperaments.

19:51

Yes, well, I said to my

19:53

father, I'd thinking I'd quite like

19:55

to go to art school, you

19:57

know, explosion, dream-on. There was no

19:59

way he was going to let

20:01

me do that. And I'm slightly

20:04

ashamed to say I didn't rebel.

20:06

I just switched from... fine art

20:08

to literature and I'm sure I'm

20:10

sure I saw a movie with

20:12

some actor sitting as a typewriter

20:15

and typing away and then standing

20:17

up and making himself a cocktail

20:19

stepping onto his balcony and looking

20:21

at looked at the hurrying crowds

20:23

and thinking this is the life

20:26

for me I didn't know how

20:28

but that was the plan and

20:30

he sort of tolerated that but

20:32

as a safety net I had

20:34

this parallel career of being an

20:37

academic and he'd worked in universities

20:39

all his life and he could

20:41

sort of understand that I could

20:43

get a job, become a university

20:45

lecturer, get a pension. It was

20:48

just a safety net. I had

20:50

no intention of following that career

20:52

path. So you didn't intend to

20:54

actually go there but how did

20:56

you feel about him vetoing your

20:58

plan to paint? Well he died

21:01

shortly after that and so it

21:03

was, I had sort of... managed

21:05

to prove that I was not

21:07

a totally worthless, useless artist dreamer

21:09

by going to Oxford to do

21:12

a... a doctorate and I'd got

21:14

a good degree at Glasgow University

21:16

where I'd been in Scotland. So

21:18

he lived long enough to see

21:20

me embark on that career but

21:23

I was I had published a

21:25

couple of short stories which he

21:27

rather disdainfully agreed to read but

21:29

it was um... Did he like

21:31

them once he read that? He

21:34

never said he liked them or

21:36

not. I mean I remember he

21:38

was not a man to express

21:40

much emotion or give overt encouragement

21:42

but he could... see I think

21:44

or he sensed that I was

21:47

paying lip service to the idea

21:49

of an academic career but he

21:51

never saw the outcome of it

21:53

so it was never an issue.

21:55

When you were 18 you went

21:58

to the University of Nice to

22:00

study which was a formative period

22:02

for you. What did you get

22:04

up to while you were there?

22:06

I learned to speak French, I

22:09

got a diploma and it was

22:11

massively transformative not only because I

22:13

was 1819. But because it's living

22:15

on my own in a room

22:17

and a old lady's flat So

22:20

I had to find my feet

22:22

and more to the point I

22:24

realized that my education had turned

22:26

me into somebody I didn't particularly

22:28

like. So what way? Well I

22:30

was unreflecting, I think it's true

22:33

of all boys who left school

22:35

as you were, unreflecting the right

22:37

wing, classist, sexist and so going

22:39

to Europe at the age of

22:41

18 and having friends who were

22:44

young men and women like me,

22:46

lot of Scandinavians, Germans, I suddenly

22:48

realized that even though I was

22:50

super independent I was super unsophisticated

22:52

and so I started to turn

22:55

myself into a European and became

22:57

very left wing almost immediately and

22:59

looked at the world with new

23:01

eyes and so it was a

23:03

it was a crucial period in

23:06

my personal development, but also that's

23:08

when I seriously started writing, writing

23:10

little vignettes and sketches. So Nice

23:12

was the turning point for me.

23:14

I think we better have some

23:17

more music, William Boyd. What have

23:19

you got for us next? Well,

23:21

this is a symbolic of my

23:23

francophilia. It's a classic French song.

23:25

It's almost a cliche, in a

23:27

way, called caress de nozamour by

23:30

Charles René. And the ingredients of

23:32

it, flurfane, faded flowers, vieur clochet,

23:34

old church bell, sort of summon

23:36

up a kind of idyllic version

23:38

of French, you know, rural village

23:41

life. And actually I live that.

23:43

to a certain extent, we have

23:45

a house, an old farmhouse in

23:47

France, so it really reminds me

23:49

of the French side of my

23:52

life. I'm not supposed to run

23:54

one time. Correster Teal de Nozamore,

23:56

Charles René. William Boyd, in 1971

23:58

you started an English and Philosophy

24:00

degree at the University of Glasgow

24:03

and this was where you began

24:05

to write in earnest. How confident

24:07

were you that you had what

24:09

it took to become a novelist?

24:11

Well I wasn't confident to be

24:13

fair, but... The first year English

24:16

literature course at Glass University ran

24:18

a short story competition. About 600

24:20

people entered it and I won.

24:22

I think I've got a 10

24:24

pound book token. But it was

24:27

a fantastic vindication of my dreams

24:29

that I could write something. It's

24:31

all about me and niece actually

24:33

the story I wrote. And so

24:35

I was able to say to

24:38

myself, maybe I'm not kidding myself,

24:40

maybe I can do this. and

24:42

I started writing a novel all

24:44

about me and niece, got that

24:46

out of my system. I did

24:49

a lot of student journalism. I

24:51

pointed myself, theatre critic and film

24:53

critic of the university newspaper. I

24:55

wrote a play, I wrote short

24:57

stories, really just flexing those muscles.

24:59

So William, you said that at

25:02

that point your work was autobiographical

25:04

and you said you had to

25:06

get it out of your system.

25:08

Tell me a little bit more

25:10

about that then because, you know,

25:13

I mean the saying goes right...

25:15

write what you know, that's, isn't

25:17

that where writers are supposed to

25:19

start? They're supposed to start, it's

25:21

kind of received wisdom, but I

25:24

would actually say write about something

25:26

you don't know, use your imagination,

25:28

because you'll run out of material

25:30

pretty quickly, as I did, in

25:32

a way all writers need to

25:35

get the autobiographical first novel out

25:37

of their system, because it's a

25:39

natural thing to do, because you

25:41

think that you're the most fascinating

25:43

person on the planet, and the

25:45

world needs to find out about

25:48

you. my advice. Many of your

25:50

novels explore how luck and forks

25:52

in the road go on to

25:54

affect our lives. Why do you

25:56

find chance and happenstance such fertile

25:59

Well, I think it's because of

26:01

my experiences and because I don't

26:03

have a religious faith, you know,

26:05

and I studied philosophy at the

26:07

university. And so you sort of

26:10

think, well, what are the guiding

26:12

principles of the universe or the

26:14

human condition? And I think things

26:16

that happened to me, like that

26:18

moment at the roadblock in Nigeria

26:21

or my father's early death and

26:23

my... wife's mother's early death. And

26:25

they were quite close together, I

26:27

think. A month apart. So we

26:29

lost half our parents very quickly.

26:32

Showed me that the universe is

26:34

a kind of random, unsparing place.

26:36

So I came up with this

26:38

idea that everybody has their share

26:40

of good luck and their share

26:42

of bad luck. And with most

26:45

people, the two piles at a

26:47

crew in their life sort of

26:49

match up. But don't expect the

26:51

road to be straight and narrow

26:53

and clear. It's going to be

26:56

very winding and bumpy from time

26:58

to time. but if you know

27:00

what makes you happy just to

27:02

hang on to that. Well let's

27:04

focus on the good luck. I

27:07

think Chance played a big part

27:09

in how you met your wife

27:11

Susan. Yes, I was in my

27:13

horrible flat. Term was about to

27:15

begin. Susan was in the University

27:18

Library revising and we both independently

27:20

spontaneously thought to hell with this,

27:22

I'm going to go to the

27:24

theatre. So we went to the

27:26

Citizens Theatre independently to see a

27:28

production of... the Crucible jolly play,

27:31

Arthur Miller, and I had spotted

27:33

Susan on the campus, but she

27:35

had no idea who I was,

27:37

of course, she had a boyfriend,

27:39

but luckily, there was a mutual

27:42

friend in the audience, and in

27:44

the interval, this mutual friend introduced

27:46

us, it was a coincidence of

27:48

us coming together at that play

27:50

that night that, you know, started

27:53

something that's still going strong 50

27:55

odd years later. So it was

27:57

a remarkable stroke. of good luck.

27:59

It's the best bit of luck

28:01

I've ever had in my life.

28:04

It's time for your next piece

28:06

of music, William Boyd, disc number

28:08

five. What's it going to

28:10

be? This is Daniel by

28:12

Elton John. This is Our

28:14

Song. It was released in

28:16

January 1971 when we had

28:18

just met pretty much and

28:20

it was playing everywhere. You

28:22

heard the top 10 endlessly

28:24

and it couldn't go into

28:26

a shop or anybody switched

28:28

on a radio. So Daniel

28:30

almost crept into our lives.

28:32

by its omnipresence and it's

28:34

sort of my Prussian Madeline

28:37

in a way in that

28:39

if when I hear that

28:41

song, you know, I'm whizzed

28:44

back to being 20 years

28:46

old at university and madly

28:49

in love with the most

28:51

beautiful girl in the

28:53

world. So it's a

28:56

great moment, a great

28:59

trigger to bring back

29:01

that moment. Elton John

29:04

and Daniel. William Boyden,

29:06

Africa. I can see

29:09

Daniel waving goodbye. God,

29:11

it looks like Daniel.

29:14

There must be the

29:16

clouds in my eyes.

29:19

Elton John and Daniel.

29:21

William Boyden, a good man

29:24

in Africa, getting the yes.

29:26

from a publisher for a

29:28

first novel is no mean

29:30

feat. How did you manage

29:33

it? Well, it came out in January

29:35

1981. I was 28 years old.

29:37

And because my publisher was very

29:39

clever and he published it in early

29:41

January, it's a very slack season

29:44

in those days. I was reviewed

29:46

on day of publication in three

29:48

national newspapers and I got very

29:50

good reviews. So that's another experience.

29:52

You go down to the news

29:54

agent in those days by every

29:56

newspaper. riffle through them hoping your

29:59

book's review My God, there it was.

30:01

And as we've heard, the novel is

30:03

set in a fictionalised Nigeria, tells the

30:05

story of the diplomat Morgan Leafy, and

30:07

also features character called Dr. Alex Murray,

30:10

who is, as you've said, a two-dimensional

30:12

portrait of your own father. Why did

30:14

you want to include your dad in

30:16

the story? Dr. Murray is, actually like

30:18

the moral force of the novel, and...

30:20

Morgan is the amoral force of the

30:23

novel, but they are forced together and

30:25

somehow they click and somehow the example

30:27

of Dr Murray makes Morgan see the

30:29

error of his ways and at the

30:31

end of the novel he's becoming a

30:34

slightly better person than he was at

30:36

the beginning. It's interesting that you were

30:38

writing about these two very different characters

30:40

and trying to understand your father, you

30:42

know, from your description you were very

30:44

different to your dad. Yes, that's a

30:47

very good point. I think in a

30:49

way it also reflected my relationship with

30:51

him in the sense that I was

30:53

going in a direction he disapproved of

30:55

and not taking... his advice, and yet

30:57

we got on very well. You know,

31:00

it was not a poisonous or fractious

31:02

relationship, but there's no doubt that we

31:04

were sort of chalk and cheese, though

31:06

there is a lot of him in

31:08

me, I think. What aspects? In stoicism

31:10

and a kind of doggedness, which I

31:13

think I inherited from him and his

31:15

kind of very dry sense of humor

31:17

at the way the world worked. Your

31:19

father had died before the novel came

31:21

out so he didn't get to see

31:23

your success. What would he have thought

31:26

of it, do you think, and sort

31:28

of the path that you've taken? It's

31:30

very interesting. I asked my mother, you

31:32

know, who I said, what do you

31:34

think dad would have thought about my

31:37

novels and my success and the fact

31:39

that I was earning a living as

31:41

a novelist and I could lend him

31:43

money if he wanted them? And she

31:45

said, I think it would have been

31:47

difficult, very honestly. I don't know why

31:50

she said that. She then retracted it,

31:52

but I always remembered it and I

31:54

think... It was because I had sort

31:56

of defied him and succeeded and he

31:58

wouldn't want to acknowledge that. So it

32:00

might have been a bit fraught, I

32:03

don't know, but we never had the

32:05

chance. How did she feel about it?

32:07

Well, she was very proud of my

32:09

success, I think, but when a good

32:11

man in Africa came out, which is

32:13

very... closely based on the life we

32:16

led. She was terrified I was going

32:18

to be sued for libel. And she

32:20

also sort of disapproved of the sex,

32:22

if you like, not to find a

32:24

point on it. But she came to

32:27

really enjoy my literary success. She read

32:29

all my novels. even if she, some

32:31

of them, were a little bit extreme

32:33

for her. So you were off, your

32:35

career had started, you published more books,

32:37

and then in 1983 you were loaded

32:40

as one of the 20 Best Young

32:42

British novelists by Granter Magazine. It was

32:44

a vintage year, Martin Amos, Salmon Rushdie

32:46

and Kazuo Ishiguru, also on the list.

32:48

Did you enjoy being part of that

32:50

new wave? We were all strangers in

32:53

a way and there we were being

32:55

photographed by Lord Snowden in this studio

32:57

and as this new wave of young

32:59

writers, but we'd never thought it would

33:01

come to anything. It was fizzled out

33:03

after two or three weeks. We did

33:06

a few events together, but then it

33:08

became a kind of roller coaster in

33:10

a way. It took off and the

33:12

literary novel suddenly became cool and writers

33:14

were getting big advances and everybody wanted

33:16

to sign you up and that sort

33:19

of thing. So it was the beginning

33:21

of something. and you know it's still

33:23

rumbling on. I wonder how famous sits

33:25

with you because you have said that

33:27

anonymity is important the ability to blend

33:30

into a crowd and observe is crucial

33:32

for a novelist. I'm just like a

33:34

normal person. I mean some people might

33:36

recognise my name if I mention it

33:38

but in every other regard I'm just

33:40

like everybody else and I think for

33:43

a novelist to be able to just...

33:45

you know, wander through London or get

33:47

on the tube train or sit on

33:49

a bus and not be recognised and

33:51

just listen and look and gather material

33:53

which is what I do is fantastic.

33:56

essential in your

33:58

life in your life. think I

34:00

think fame, whatever regard

34:02

whether it's politics politics

34:04

or or showbiz, is a Faustian pact.

34:06

But in in a

34:09

way the novelist has

34:11

his cake and

34:13

eats it. Let's have some

34:15

have some more music

34:17

William Boyd. Number Boyd.

34:20

next? This is next?

34:22

violin concerto. Britain

34:24

I think is possibly the the

34:27

of the 20th as far as

34:29

classical British music is concerned and

34:31

I've come to love this to

34:33

love a lot a lot I've actually

34:35

written written the to an opera will be

34:37

yet its world in Oldbro which is

34:39

which is a festival that Britain founded

34:42

so I'm quite pleased that

34:44

this this my love love of Benjamin Britain

34:46

a way has this component

34:48

to it. to it. music

35:48

part of the first

35:51

movement of Benjamin Britain's violin concerto

35:53

by Janine Jansen with the the

35:55

London Symphony Orchestra conducted

35:57

by by Parvo Jervi. William Boyd you enjoy

36:00

making fiction more real than non-fiction and you

36:02

took that to another level in the late

36:04

90s when you created a fake artist called

36:06

Nat Tate. So it all started when you

36:09

joined the Board of Modern Painters magazine along

36:11

with David Bowie. Tell me more. The editor

36:13

of the magazine said how do we get

36:15

fiction into a serious art magazine and I

36:18

stuck my hand out and said why don't

36:20

I invent a painter? So I did invent

36:22

a painter who I called Nat Tate, an

36:24

American painter, abstract expressionist who, born in 1928,

36:27

committed suicide in 1960, having destroyed 99% of

36:29

his artworks, which is why nobody had ever

36:31

heard of him. Couldn't do this now with

36:33

Google and the internet, but back in the

36:36

90s it was possible. And I wrote this

36:38

short monograph which I illustrated with some of

36:40

my found photographs and the few surviving artworks

36:42

of Nat Tate's that I produced myself and

36:45

Bowie said, why don't we publish it as

36:47

a book? Because he had his own publishing

36:49

company as one does. And so we didn't.

36:51

He, they, they, produced this beautiful little art

36:54

monograph, Nat Tate and American artist, and I'd

36:56

taken great pains to get real people to

36:58

remember Nat Tate, all that sort of thing.

37:00

So it's a very convincing read, but Bowie's

37:03

idea was to have a launch party in

37:05

Manhattan. So the people that you'd brought in

37:07

to share their memories, people like friends of

37:09

yours, Gore Vidal I think was involved. Gore

37:12

Vidal, who I knew a bit remembered meeting

37:14

in Nat Tate and John Richardson, who I

37:16

also knew, whose Picasso's biographerographerographer, remembersers, remembers, remembers.

37:18

introducing Nat Tate to Picasso and George Brack,

37:21

and that Bowie's idea was to launch it

37:23

in this glamorous party in Jeff Coons's studio

37:25

in Manhattan, all the great and the goods

37:27

and the glitterati of New York invited, and

37:30

an English journalist who was part of the

37:32

conspiracy small circles, conspirators went around the party

37:34

asking people if they've ever heard of Nat

37:36

Tate, and of course they all said, all

37:39

them, a lot of them said, oh yes,

37:41

what a tragedy he died so young. As

37:43

people do, you know, you dig a hole

37:45

and you jump into it and then it

37:47

was blown up in the British press and

37:50

it became a global news story for 24

37:52

hours. I was interviewed on newsnight by Jeremy

37:54

Paxman. How were you unmasked? What happened? Well,

37:56

the journalist who was asking the questions, and

37:59

we worked the same thing in London, so

38:01

it was going to be a party in

38:03

New York, party in London, hosted by Bowie.

38:05

who wouldn't go to a party hosted by

38:08

boe. And he realized he had too good

38:10

a story to sit on. And you were

38:12

grilling off Jeremy Paxman, how was that? Well,

38:14

of course, he was wise after there. I

38:17

know Jeremy Paxman a bit, and he was

38:19

saying, what appalling pictures, how could anybody be

38:21

who are doing by them? But it was

38:23

a sign that everybody loves a hoax, especially

38:26

for your hoaxing pretentious intellectuals, even better. Sticking

38:28

with fiction, William, you're known for writing whole-life

38:30

novels, including any human hearts, we'd caress and

38:32

the romantic. What is it about these sweeping

38:35

narratives that you love? Various things, it's partly

38:37

to make the fiction seem so real that

38:39

you forget its fiction. So you're getting... whole

38:41

life which is unusual in novels. So you

38:44

get to know that character in a way

38:46

that's different from getting to know a character

38:48

in an orthodox novel. I think that's my

38:50

theory. You have all the information so that

38:53

the character almost seems like a member of

38:55

your family or a close friend to show

38:57

how powerful... novels are at doing the human

38:59

condition. It's the art form that does us

39:02

better than any other, I reckon. And the

39:04

long form, the whole life novel, I think,

39:06

takes it onto another dimension as far as

39:08

readers are concerned. And of course, we know

39:11

that character intimately and follow them throughout their

39:13

life. they're often not the same person, you

39:15

know, by the end. It's a collection of

39:17

very different selves, actually. Yes, I think there's

39:20

maybe some inner person. personal quality

39:22

that you never lose,

39:24

but your experience of

39:26

life makes you change

39:29

your opinions and your

39:31

attitudes and your value

39:33

systems. Certainly true of

39:35

me. I mean, I've

39:38

been keeping a diary

39:40

since I was 18,

39:42

a huge multi -million -word

39:44

document. So I can

39:47

go back and read

39:49

about what I thought

39:51

when I was 18,

39:53

19 years old. I

39:55

just don't recognize myself

39:58

to help very sorry

40:00

for myself, give myself

40:02

a hard time, but

40:04

I don't recognize the

40:07

sort of melancholic, brooding

40:09

character that I clearly

40:11

was then. And your

40:13

memory of yourself can

40:16

be different, it? Yeah,

40:18

and if somebody said

40:20

what you like when

40:22

you're 18, I said

40:25

okay, free, easy going,

40:27

but the evidence of

40:29

my diary suggests otherwise.

40:31

So I think it's

40:34

almost common sense in

40:36

that the things you

40:38

experience change your attitudes,

40:40

change what's important to

40:43

you and thereby change

40:45

you as a person

40:47

to a certain extent.

40:51

William, it's time for some more music.

40:53

Your seventh choice today. What have

40:55

we got to hear and why? I've

40:57

got Brahms Horn Trio in E

40:59

flat major. This is just a kind

41:01

of homage to Brahms, so I

41:03

think it's probably my favorite classical composer.

41:05

I think I find his music

41:07

fantastically uplifting and I listen to it

41:10

time and time again. This little

41:12

trio is beautiful. It's not one of

41:14

his large scale works, but it

41:16

is in ways a perfect distillation of

41:18

his genius. Part

42:00

of the Andante

42:03

from Brahms Horn

42:06

Trio in E

42:08

flat Major. Part

42:11

of the Andante

42:13

from Brahms. Part

42:16

of the Andante

42:18

from Brahms

42:20

Horn Trio in

42:23

E-flat Major. Performed

42:25

by George Shebog.

42:27

William Boyd, when

42:29

does your writing

42:31

day start? I'm not an early

42:33

morning person. I'm not a lark. I'm

42:36

a night owl. And so the mornings

42:38

are usually sort of... cranking up the

42:40

engine and then between lunch and the

42:42

cocktail hour is when I tend to

42:44

write and I write seven days a

42:47

week you know three hours a day

42:49

and everything sort of gets done but

42:51

it's as I say a lot of

42:53

stamina a lot of doggedness is required

42:55

as well as inspiration. And when you're

42:58

writing long hand how particular are

43:00

you about what you write with or

43:02

on? Well I have got few fetishes I

43:04

have to write in narrow, faint, spiral-backed

43:06

notebooks, A4, and I have found

43:08

the perfect writing implement, which is

43:11

a rotering architect's pen, a sort

43:13

of technical drawing pen, because I've

43:15

got tiny little handwriting, and it

43:18

fits my handwriting perfectly. And it's

43:20

quite hard to read, but I

43:22

write in long hand, leaving the

43:24

left-hand page blank for second thoughts

43:27

and corrections and even endations and

43:29

additions and additions and additions and

43:31

additions, and then I... type up

43:33

the long hand version onto my

43:36

computer. I'm about to send you

43:38

to the desert island, so I'm going

43:40

to invite you to imagine, since you're

43:42

very good at that, what your island

43:44

might look like. What do you see

43:47

in your mind's eye? Well, I think

43:49

it's a tropical island, maybe a clear

43:51

water lagoon, palm trees. I might be

43:53

able to brew a spirit from coconuts,

43:56

you know, got to have some kind

43:58

of narcotic, stuck on an island. childhood

44:00

that sort of messed up my

44:03

skin. The sun is my enemy.

44:05

So are we sitting in the

44:07

shade drinking my coconut brew, missing

44:10

everybody and everything about the life

44:12

I've left behind me? What will

44:14

you miss the most? Well obviously

44:17

I'm going to miss Susan, the

44:19

one and only, and I think

44:21

I'm going to miss the cinema

44:23

of everyday life because I realize

44:26

I'm an urban person. I love

44:28

living in London. I love big

44:30

cities and the reason I love...

44:33

big cities and I think London

44:35

takes the biscuit is you just

44:37

see so much I've used this

44:40

image of a novelist as a

44:42

kind of blue whale with his

44:44

or her mouth agape consuming the

44:47

krill of everyday life and making

44:49

something of it and so I

44:51

think that I would really miss

44:54

the passing parade, the cinema of

44:56

everyday life, which I find immensely

44:58

stimulating as I walk everywhere, as

45:01

I wander the city anonymously, taking

45:03

it all in, not with my

45:05

mouth agape, but noticing everything and

45:08

relishing difference and relishing detail, and

45:10

it's inspiring. Well, before we cast

45:12

you away, we'll allow you to

45:15

choose one final disc, William Boyd.

45:17

What is that going to be

45:19

your final choice today? It's a

45:22

song by a... Spanish Uruguayan singer

45:24

who I know called Jorge Drexler.

45:26

He's a huge star in Spain

45:29

and South America. And I've worked

45:31

with him actually on a project

45:33

that is still work in progress.

45:36

But this is how I was

45:38

introduced to him. I was meant

45:40

to see the film Motorcycle Diaries,

45:43

which is about the early life

45:45

of Cheguavara. But at the end,

45:47

over the end credits, this song

45:50

was played. And you know when

45:52

you hear a song for the

45:54

first time, it often doesn't register.

45:57

But in this case, I thought,

45:59

this song is absolutely amazing. Who

46:01

wrote it? And so I waited

46:04

for the credit to come up

46:06

and it was Horgge Drexler. Never

46:08

heard of him. So I investigated

46:11

Horgge, bought all his albums, and

46:13

became a huge fan. And actually

46:15

he won Oscar for Best Song

46:17

for this particular song. So he's

46:20

a mighty talent and a delightful

46:22

man. So

46:31

William Boyd I'm going to send

46:33

you away to the island now.

46:35

I'm giving you the Bible, the

46:37

complete works of Shakespeare and you

46:39

can take one other book with

46:41

you. This is going to be

46:44

difficult because I know your library

46:46

is substantial. Yes, it was very

46:48

difficult, but I've actually chosen one

46:50

of my favorite novels, a unique

46:52

novel, written by Vladimir Nabokov. It's

46:54

called Pale Fire, and it's unique

46:56

because the novel consists of 999

46:58

lines of poetry and the notes,

47:01

the footnote to this poem, but

47:03

the person compiling the notes has

47:05

got it completely wrong. thinks it's

47:07

all about him, but it isn't.

47:09

But it's endlessly diverting and very,

47:11

very funny, and I think I'll

47:13

need a few laughs as I

47:16

molder away on my desert island.

47:18

you can also have a luxury

47:20

item. What will that be? I

47:22

was thinking should I have an

47:24

immense reservoir of chilled so vignon

47:26

blant buried but I thought no

47:28

something more edifying I'd choose a

47:30

piano because again goes back to

47:33

my father he always wished he

47:35

could play the piano so he

47:37

was determined his son was going

47:39

to be able to play the

47:41

piano so he made me have

47:43

piano lessons when I was at

47:45

school from the age of nine

47:48

till the age of 14 when

47:50

I finally begged him to let

47:52

me stop trying to learn the

47:54

piano as hopeless at it. But

47:56

all those bare hours on the

47:58

desert island with a grand piano

48:00

sitting on the beach, I might

48:02

actually, if I never rescued, emerge

48:05

with the talent of being able

48:07

to pick out the odd songs,

48:09

which is all he wanted me

48:11

to be able to do. So

48:13

I failed him on that score

48:15

as well, but maybe in this

48:17

case I would live up to

48:20

his expectations. And finally, William, which

48:22

one track of the eight pieces

48:24

of music that you've shared with

48:26

us today would you rush to

48:28

save from the Waves first? Well,

48:30

I think it has to be

48:32

Elton John's Daniel, if only because

48:34

it's the part it plays in

48:37

my memory bank, those early days

48:39

of Susan and my love affair

48:41

in Glass University, and it'll sweep

48:43

me back to that time and

48:45

make me happy. William Boyd, thank

48:47

you very much for letting us

48:49

hear your Desert Island disks. Thank

48:52

you. It's been a pleasure. Hello,

49:16

I hope you enjoyed my conversation

49:18

with William and I'm sure he'll

49:20

get plenty of piano practice while

49:22

he's on the island. We've cast

49:24

away many writers including David Nichols,

49:26

Ali Smith and Bernadie Neveristo. Some

49:28

of William's fellow grantor novelists of

49:30

1983 including Salman Rushdie and Kazuo

49:32

Ishiguo are in our archive too.

49:34

The studio manager for today's program

49:36

was Duncan Hammond. The production coordinator

49:39

was Susie Roylands. The assistant producer

49:41

was Christine Pavlovsky and the producer

49:43

was Paula McGinley. Next time my

49:45

guest will be the singer and

49:47

songwriter Cindy Lauper. I do hope

49:49

you'll join us. A

50:03

billionaire Christian family family is

50:05

building a huge collection

50:07

of artifacts for their for

50:10

of the Bible of

50:12

Washington in Washington that time

50:14

there were there were 30,000 items

50:16

probably. But scholar turned super sleuth

50:18

asking questions. The magnitude

50:20

of what I found

50:22

out is incredible. Lewis. I

50:24

Ben Lewis. I investigate

50:26

the darker side of

50:28

the and antiquities world,

50:31

but nothing prepared me

50:33

for this story. this story.

50:35

truly wrong was going

50:37

on. going on. Looters, and

50:39

a scandal of biblical

50:41

proportions. From BBC

50:43

Radio BBC Radio 4, word of

50:45

God. Word of God. Listen first

50:47

on BBC Sounds. sounds.