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eye Nice . Welcome

0:29

back to the Design Principles Podcast

0:31

. This week we have the first of our

0:33

listener recommendation episodes . So

0:35

over the last couple of years we've

0:37

been asking listeners to message

0:40

in on Instagram and email

0:42

with their thoughts on what

0:44

we should discuss , and we've plucked this

0:46

one out of thin air and decided to give it

0:48

a crack . So this week we will

0:51

be discussing architectural manifestos

0:53

. Time to dive in . This

1:11

week we thought we'd come to you guys with

1:13

a listener recommendation . So

1:15

we've had a few listeners email in with suggestions

1:17

for episodes , and one of the ones that we kind of found the

1:19

most interesting was somebody asking about

1:21

architectural manifestos

1:24

and movements , um , and

1:26

just wanting us to discuss those . So I thought

1:29

we'd , we thought we'd bring that to you , um , and

1:31

probably

1:33

take it . Take a look at it from a more modern , modern

1:35

day approach so modern .

1:38

I thought for a minute you were saying we had a couple of listeners

1:40

.

1:40

I was like , oh damn yeah

1:42

, we we've had like thanks

1:45

to a couple of listeners probably like a dozen

1:47

suggestions , some pretty good ones what

1:50

are we ?

1:51

what are we working with ? Have we got any haters yet ? Because that's

1:53

when you know you're really successful .

1:54

Yeah no , I haven't haven't identified

1:57

the haters yet so , sammy , have you um

1:59

written your manifesto

2:02

yet ?

2:02

have I written my manifesto ? Going

2:05

to write a manifesto ? Is that something that

2:07

you see yourself doing in the future

2:09

, or what even is

2:11

a manifesto ?

2:13

well , yeah , if we look , if we

2:15

look back on it , so that's

2:17

that's a good place to start , like what is an architectural

2:19

manifesto ? And essentially I'll try my best

2:21

to define it without using like

2:24

chat , gpt or something . It's purely from kind

2:26

of memory , but ultimately it

2:28

was historically an individual

2:30

, but then it kind of shifted into groups , take

2:33

on a direction for

2:36

design , art

2:38

, literature , architecture

2:40

, etc . So you've got

2:42

things like the distill movement and like there are creative demands . You've got things like the Distil

2:44

movement and their creative demands

2:47

. You've got Frank Lloyd Wright and

2:49

the nature of materials , for example

2:51

Le Corbusier's ineffable space . Those

2:53

are kind of like classic examples . There's

2:56

a couple of ones that are considered the greatest

2:58

or the most influential

3:01

and those are sort of like

3:03

Le Corbusier's towards new architecture and

3:05

adolph loose's ornament and crime and

3:08

they were sort of like these are

3:11

these books a

3:13

manifesto ?

3:14

I guess a book's probably a good way to you know

3:17

, really really hone in your manifesto

3:19

yeah , like to

3:21

be perfectly honest .

3:22

I don't't know how many of them were

3:24

actual books more

3:26

, but rather like a series

3:28

of lectures and theses

3:30

and key ideas and

3:32

deliverables and

3:35

statements . Really , you know , like you have those key

3:37

classic , less is more type

3:40

mentalities that were

3:43

essentially like those architects' direction

3:45

. It was their manifesto , it was what they were wanting

3:47

to embody and deliver , didn't

3:50

Lee Corb ?

3:51

have his five points towards

3:53

new architecture Like

3:55

really hone in specific , I guess deliverables

3:57

.

3:58

Yeah , exactly .

3:59

Kind of what manifestos were like 10

4:01

points to our type

4:04

of architecture , or blah blah yeah .

4:06

So corb's five points of architecture were

4:08

pelotes , free facade

4:10

, free plan , ribbon , windows and

4:12

a roof garden . So he was basically saying

4:15

that , like all architecture

4:17

should have had those five points as a minimum

4:19

your architecture sucks , unless it looks

4:21

like mine yeah , whereas then you

4:23

kind of get , but then you kind of get , but then

4:25

you kind of get like other people coming in there with

4:28

like different different views and different different

4:30

approaches and you've got like the futurism

4:32

movement and where everything has to have like

4:34

a moving function and you can kind of see in

4:36

a way like

4:38

that sort of steampunky type nature

4:41

is influenced architects like kundig

4:44

and things like that . But I'd be hard

4:46

pressed to for anybody

4:48

to kind of come up with , or I'd be really

4:50

interested to know whether

4:53

anybody's kind of got like a modern take

4:55

on a manifesto , because a lot of these things we're

4:57

talking about they're sort of like in the early

4:59

days of architecture . I mean , you

5:02

could even go back all the way to like vitruvius if

5:05

you want to go like full classical . But

5:07

has anybody really come up with a new

5:09

approach , a new direction , a new vision

5:11

and really stood

5:14

on principle for architecture like in

5:16

the 21st century ?

5:20

I'm not sure if they were Wellington-based

5:22

, but the architectural group , remember those guys

5:24

did like Courtyard House up in

5:26

Karori . I

5:30

think they've got one Society

5:32

, the Individual , techniques , beauty , politics

5:34

, economics , philosophy , the Magazine . I

5:36

think those are like their chapters

5:39

of their one , and

5:42

I think our good friend Guy Marrage made

5:44

one , didn't he ?

5:47

Did he make a manifesto or was Guy part

5:49

of that movement ?

5:51

Oh , was that the Ark ? What was

5:54

that ?

5:55

organisation the Ark .

5:56

House , the Ark House . Was

5:58

it the Ark House that had a manifesto ? But again

6:01

.

6:01

That was like pre-21st

6:04

century , that was sort of like turn of the 20th century

6:06

, you know where . I think , like that student movement

6:08

was far more prevalent and I think a lot

6:11

of this like these , these directions

6:13

and manifestos and movements and things came

6:15

from like probably more of a focus

6:17

on the academic realm , whereas now

6:20

I think now we're so much more focused on delivering

6:23

a real thing rather than just

6:26

pure concept .

6:27

Yeah , I don't know . I

6:29

would hypothesize that the manifesto

6:32

has just moved to

6:34

the About page on your website . I'm

6:38

going to Google some About pages and we're

6:40

going to find out .

6:45

But that's a pretty wet manifesto . I

6:48

don't think anybody's sitting

6:50

there really like standing

6:52

on principle or looking to like really

6:55

instill architectural change in their about

6:57

page on their website .

6:59

But you're not wrong though it could be like , it's

7:02

probably more in the form of like a blog or

7:04

something . Essentially , it's just like

7:06

a writing about principles

7:08

that you believe in , right ?

7:10

Yeah , but that might exist

7:12

. But almost again to Lisa's point from

7:14

last week's episode , is that permeating

7:17

the architectural fraternity

7:20

? When was the last time you guys picked up a piece

7:22

of like a bulletin or a piece

7:24

of architectural literature

7:26

or went to a film or something and you

7:29

looked at what they were presenting and went , holy

7:31

shit , that's changed my whole approach

7:33

to design or that's changed my life , kind

7:36

of thing , like that's what I feel like manifestos

7:38

are designed to do and like who's doing that

7:40

these days ?

7:43

I've just jumped on the

7:45

Hertzlog website . Their

7:48

ones , I think , are very manifesto

7:51

. They've got four strong

7:53

titles with a paragraph

7:55

underneath Obligations beyond the

7:57

brief Public

7:59

and political . So they're talking

8:01

about their role and what they have to

8:03

do within these realms . Open

8:05

dialogue Individuals grow . So they're talking about like their role and what they have to do within

8:07

these realms . Open dialogue individuals grow . So we are committed to providing professional development

8:10

on all levels apprenticeships , internships

8:12

, lifelong learning opportunities , so

8:14

like . I think those are like kind

8:16

of your quintessential manifestos

8:18

and statements we will do

8:20

this , we must do this , we

8:23

must do this .

8:26

We aim to do this . Yeah

8:31

, it's pretty funny though , because the stigma around manifestos

8:33

is that you have to kind of be accomplished in

8:36

some sort of realm and

8:38

you're more likely to kind of write

8:40

a manifesto towards the end of your

8:42

career once you've had , like you

8:45

know , a whole lifetime of experience

8:47

in that realm and perfecting

8:49

that craft . Isn't it a little bit like

8:51

on the nose to come out

8:53

and write a manifesto straight off the bat

8:56

, like five years out of uni

8:58

?

8:58

god guys , I've got some

9:01

to inspire and communicate

9:03

and I've got a vision , you know

9:06

, like is that a thing ? Well , no

9:08

, but like you say that , but that's exactly what

9:10

these people were doing . You know , like I feel

9:12

like there was so much more I don't

9:15

know like gumption for whatever better word

9:17

like back in the day , like people were like

9:20

coming straight out of university and being like I'm going

9:22

to change the world in architecture they genuinely

9:24

tried to do that and

9:28

like I cannot really think of anybody that's kind of come in with a hiss and a roar at a

9:30

young age .

9:31

you know , like you said , being not in the twilight of

9:33

their career , really looking to

9:35

like shake up the

9:37

architectural norm other than

9:39

maybe Biaga , yeah

9:42

well , there could be a whole bunch out

9:45

there but you've never heard of them because they don't

9:47

have that reputation to fall

9:49

back on or any kind of established

9:51

reputation , but like their

9:54

work is just kind of unknown that

9:56

would be .

9:56

That would be a good cross-reference . Like

9:58

when did um these

10:01

people like legal write

10:04

his manifesto versus like in

10:06

what stage of his career was he ? Was he , yeah

10:09

, 10 projects in 20 , zero

10:11

, like

10:13

Herzog's got you know their website . I've

10:15

found the highest number 658

10:18

. I really like on that website how they list

10:20

um what number each

10:22

project is , which is outrageous

10:25

658 projects .

10:27

So apparently Corb was 34

10:31

when he wrote Towards New Architecture

10:33

.

10:34

Yeah , I was just about to say that .

10:36

Your age .

10:37

How old are you , Gerard ? Yeah , that's my age . You

10:40

know , like there we go , Case in point , Like

10:42

I'd say that Biago was probably .

10:43

What have you been doing your whole ?

10:44

life . Exactly . I feel like Biago was

10:46

probably not a dissimilar age when he wrote

10:48

what I see as being the last

10:51

true modern manifesto , which is yes

10:53

Is More , which I don't know if anybody's read .

10:55

Did he write ?

10:56

that , though , or did he get people to make that

10:58

for ?

10:58

him .

11:05

It's a Tasian book but it's about the firm big , but at that time it was so

11:07

heavily his voice . But

11:11

the whole premise of this and this is where it

11:14

goes beyond kind of what you're

11:16

talking to in the Herzog outline

11:19

what they're sort of saying is promises

11:22

to what they'll deliver to potential clients , less so

11:24

than how they're looking to saying is promises like to what they'll deliver to potential clients , less so than how they're looking

11:26

to like reimagine architecture , whereas

11:28

, like the whole outline of yes

11:31

is more is essentially there's

11:33

two , two polar opposites in the architectural

11:35

profession . There's the total avant-garde

11:37

kind of papered , full , imaginative

11:40

, hard to realize stuff

11:42

and then there's the very nuts and boltsy

11:44

, square , box , tick , boxy

11:47

type results . Okay , I think that's

11:49

a little bit black and white , but essentially what , like

11:51

the whole concept and the whole

11:53

development of big is

11:56

predicated around

11:58

the merging of those two and how you can

12:00

have imaginative

12:02

responses but that are still incredibly

12:04

programmatic and that's like the whole

12:06

. That's basically the whole shtick , right , it's

12:08

outlined in such a clear

12:11

and concise way that it really makes you

12:13

consider the way that you approach

12:15

architecture . And I'd say that's the last like formative

12:18

piece for me anyway that actually has

12:20

influenced the way that I approach design

12:22

so do you seek out manifestos

12:24

to read , to improve your own skills

12:26

? No , because there isn't any . I

12:29

mean , that's exactly what I'm saying .

12:32

This is the last one , the first

12:34

and the last .

12:35

Good point . Why aren't they still applicable ? I think you

12:38

know they probably are . They probably are

12:40

to a degree Like , if we're looking at the distill manifesto

12:42

, like advocation , pure abstraction

12:44

, primary colors and geriatric forms , why

12:47

can't you lean into that ? And I'd say there's a lot of people that

12:49

still very much do you know

12:51

. But then I don't know

12:54

, I feel like they're less . They're less influential these

12:56

days because people are kind of just out

12:58

there to do the thing . Or

13:01

am I being a bit cruel to us ?

13:03

I think I actually own own

13:05

that Le Corbusier towards New Architecture

13:07

and tried to read it at

13:09

university and just didn't

13:11

really understand

13:14

a lot of what he was talking about . I should probably

13:16

go back and try and reread it now that I've

13:18

had a few years practising

13:20

.

13:20

Yeah , I mean like a decade . In practice , certainly

13:23

you're becoming a lot more informed .

13:25

Yeah , I'd like a decade in practice certainly you're becoming a lot more informed . Yeah

13:27

, you'd hope so anyway . Maybe not . I just

13:29

find sometimes things like that are approached

13:31

better when you're actually interested in it

13:33

.

13:34

Also , I've

13:37

got to say this all sounds great

13:39

, but if , like

13:41

, who has anything

13:43

to write about , you kind of have to have

13:45

a thought process that is

13:48

, I guess , has somewhat some

13:50

level of depth to it , and

13:53

you know what I mean . Like everyone's kind of , Are

13:56

we saying we're all too shit-like ? I don't know . I guess like

13:58

no , we're just like we do small architecture

14:01

. These guys are like doing like massive

14:03

stuff . They've got like a lot . I don't

14:05

know , I don't know , maybe it's just me . I'd

14:07

feel like too , like insignificant

14:09

. You

14:17

know , I don't know if I'd know what to it is .

14:19

But I think , gerard , you're right , that's probably why

14:21

there's no manifestos , because we all kind

14:23

of… .

14:24

We're all too scared of the importance

14:27

that it seems to embody .

14:29

Yeah .

14:30

Such and such wrote a manifesto , so I certainly

14:34

couldn't , but why not ?

14:35

It's more like I probably wouldn't have anything to write

14:38

about .

14:39

But then again , when you actually kind of like think about

14:41

it you probably do and I think what

14:43

you're more concerned about being and

14:49

this is probably why people aren't like writing manifestos or looking to really hammer

14:51

home new or alternative architectural movements is

14:54

they're like oh , my realm

14:56

or my circle of influence is too small . But

14:58

even if you've got like a very small

15:00

circle of influence , I don't

15:02

know say , gerard , you write a manifesto

15:04

and it's picked up by like 10 people

15:06

in wellington or something and that's

15:09

it , but it actually has a profound

15:11

impact on them . I'd say that's still successful

15:13

. You know that's still successful . So

15:16

we need to be writing like practice

15:18

, writing like a bunch of mini manifestos

15:20

well , I just don just don't maybe

15:22

not necessarily manifestos , but I think maybe

15:25

people need to . From

15:27

an architectural point of view , maybe like kind

15:29

of look at themselves and

15:32

understand the architecture

15:34

of their design style or what they're looking to achieve

15:36

, or maybe outline what they're hoping to and actually

15:38

like put it to paper Because and

15:40

even if it's for yourself , but it's like public access

15:42

or something people may take something from that .

15:45

I'm getting a slight sense of deja vu . Did

15:48

we talk about ? This

15:50

is kind of like goals for your practice .

15:53

Different . I don't think this is necessarily

15:55

practice-based , although it could be

15:57

.

15:57

These are architecture goals . So if you're

15:59

a somewhat design-focused architecture

16:02

office , these are going to be like your top three points

16:04

of your to-do list . I want to create architecture

16:07

that X , Y , Z .

16:09

I think maybe a little bit different .

16:11

I think that's more referencing

16:13

, kind of like that Herzog example , that

16:15

you yeah , but those look more

16:17

on , I guess , being

16:19

on your about page , but ones that

16:22

you write for yourself , goals that you don't

16:24

really particularly show anybody .

16:27

Yeah , but I think it's obviously for

16:29

you personally , but I think it's

16:31

also a call to the profession to

16:34

take that direction as well . You know , like you look

16:36

at the Bauhaus Manifesto , like

16:39

Gropius called for the unity of art , craft

16:41

and technology , you know

16:44

, and so it's that call to arms from your

16:46

profession to kind of approach something in a different

16:48

way and maybe , like

16:50

there's a slight blurring of the lines between

16:53

manifestos and new architectural

16:55

movements , I think they could probably be

16:57

spoken about in the same light . But you

17:00

know , like when has there been

17:02

a conscious shift recently

17:05

? You know what I mean . You

17:07

think about the conscious shift from modernism

17:09

to postmodernism is very clear-cut

17:11

. Has there been something like that recently

17:14

? Am I just kind of naive to it ? What

17:16

are your guys' thoughts ?

17:19

What are you guys' thoughts ? Art

17:28

Deco is one of the most visually potent styles of architecture , isn't

17:30

it ? I don't know . I

17:35

feel like we're in a weird globalized architecture sort of season where everyone's

17:37

looking at everyone's Instagram so everything's

17:39

kind of slowly blending into

17:41

each other . The same thing which I think

17:43

is terrible and bad the

17:47

more you could not look at

17:49

Instagram , I think , reference things around you versus

17:52

somebody's beautiful looking

17:54

house on Instagram .

17:55

It's an interesting point , gerard . Yeah

17:57

, manifesto , yeah , there's

17:59

you . There's your manifesto , yeah

18:01

, Don't stop looking at Instagram

18:04

, but it's actually , but I mean that could be it

18:06

. You know , that could be the extent

18:08

of it and you're right , gerard , that global kind

18:11

of global washing of architectural

18:13

styles , so true , and

18:15

you know , that was really evident

18:17

and you can kind of you see it obviously

18:19

like scrolling through Instagram looking at like precedents

18:22

and all those things . But it was super evident when I was at , you

18:24

know , the Design Awards , because

18:26

everything's presented in one room at one time

18:28

, right , and any single one of those

18:30

projects you've got to plucked out independently

18:33

and like cut and paste

18:35

it and put it in New Zealand and it wouldn't have been out of place

18:37

. You know what I mean . Yeah , and

18:40

I think that's the case for a lot of architecture

18:42

these days . So

18:46

maybe that is the manifesto is stop

18:49

looking at your neighbour and start looking , maybe more inward .

18:51

Yeah , creating more of a New Zealand architecture

18:54

. Just everything

18:56

has to be corrugated iron .

18:58

We do have a very distinct

19:01

, particularly residential , distinct , style

19:03

, I'd say , less so commercial , I'd

19:05

say , although our commercial architecture is by

19:08

and large quite plain

19:10

, I don't know .

19:11

What do you think about our residential architecture is distinctly

19:14

new zealand .

19:15

I think , like the strong

19:17

, like emphasis on certain

19:19

forms , the monopitch and the gable

19:21

, and use of materiality

19:23

, a strong lean into

19:26

natural materiality , I'd

19:28

say , is probably some of the key things

19:30

. That's distinctly .

19:31

Kiwi , you still just described every

19:33

building everywhere , though right .

19:36

I guess it's like what's the difference between that and Scandinavia

19:39

? Good point . What's the difference between ?

19:40

that and Well the difference

19:42

is Australia .

19:43

Yeah , okay , fair enough .

19:46

Sitting here looking out my window in Copenhagen

19:48

, I can tell you the difference is density , right

19:50

, new Zealand's just still

19:52

so new . I was wondering

19:54

yesterday . I was like how long is

19:57

it going to be ? For how long do you think it'll take

19:59

for New Zealand to have like

20:01

the level of density that you see

20:03

, like in these European cities

20:05

? You know , is it like 100

20:08

years where the recession plans

20:10

just keep going more , steeper

20:12

and steeper and steeper until they're basically vertical

20:15

and then everyone is just building

20:17

next to each other , like over

20:19

here , which , so which ? So you know , essentially

20:21

our cities do end up as

20:24

dense as these cities , or

20:26

is it just like never going to happen

20:28

because our population is never going to reach

20:30

that ? interesting , you

20:32

say that the urban sprawl .

20:34

Really interesting that you say that being because I've got a little note

20:36

here that I wrote down and like one of the one

20:38

of the reasons why I thought that there's

20:40

like fewer modern manifestos . I

20:42

said it's like the decline of utopian

20:45

thinking , so like it's the belief . Now

20:47

, yeah , like there's , there's very little

20:49

, sorry , a grand revolutionary

20:51

, visionary action . Yeah

20:54

, is that ?

20:55

is . Is that because , like everyone

20:57

, feels like everything's almost already

20:59

been done , not

21:01

, not , you know , to an an extent , whereas

21:04

years and years ago it was all kind

21:06

of new and interesting scheming

21:11

, or town planning , urban

21:14

environment layout and

21:16

some amazing stuff

21:19

was a huge thing .

21:21

But now it's like well . Granduos

21:24

was a goal right . You know like cities wanted

21:26

to be traditionally . You know

21:28

like cities wanted to be the most visible in the

21:30

world , and that's why you have places

21:34

like you know London

21:36

, and like Hong Kong or New York or whatever

21:38

you know that have like reached

21:40

for the sky , whereas I don't think

21:42

that's a goal necessarily anymore . If anything

21:45

else , we're looking at life a little

21:47

bit more pragmatically , a

21:49

little bit more naturally

21:51

maybe , and everything's kind of slowed

21:54

. That fast rush

21:56

to grandioseness is slowed .

21:59

So does that mean that the successful or

22:01

the traditionally the successful manifestos

22:03

are of the city

22:06

scale , or are they ? You know

22:08

what I mean ? Are they more grand ? Are

22:10

they bigger than just kind of like a house

22:12

?

22:13

I think they could be taken in at

22:16

any scale . Really , I think they

22:18

are all pretty well . The two we've read

22:20

through anyway , I think are very scalable

22:23

, like the Bauhaus and Le

22:26

Corbusier yeah , totally Like

22:28

you could take that and

22:30

like the Distil Manifesto as well

22:33

, like that's purely

22:35

aesthetic concept . That

22:37

could be something as small as a pen or something

22:40

as large as a stadium .

22:42

You know , I think scales

22:44

maybe not so much , the issue being as

22:46

more like no

22:49

one's reading them yeah , well , yeah

22:52

or I mean , I have us three

22:54

sitting around here right now , like how

22:56

many manifestos have

22:59

you read ?

23:00

well , Well , since architecture school one

23:03

.

23:05

So I mean , I think we've figured

23:07

out the issue here why they're not working

23:09

because no one's reading them .

23:12

I'd argue , zipfel's Atmospheres is a

23:14

manifesto .

23:15

What about that Chipperfield one ? Was that a

23:17

manifesto ?

23:19

We're just maybe realizing that

23:22

architects books that they

23:24

write are perhaps manifestos yeah

23:26

, and I think there's a it's a , it's

23:28

a um blurred line between a monograph

23:31

, which is more like a profile

23:33

of a practice , which is what you were kind of talking to

23:35

earlier , gerard , and in a manifesto

23:37

, which I think is more of like a monograph

23:40

, is like we're an architecture practice , like

23:42

kirsten thompson's books like this , her

23:44

recent book , excellent book . If no

23:46

one's read it , pick it up . But like

23:48

that's like it's a practice and profile . But it

23:50

kind of outlines the way that

23:52

her practice has evolved and what they're looking to

23:54

achieve and deliver . And that's less

23:57

manifesto than something like

23:59

yes is more where that's more okay

24:01

, this is who we are as a practice , but

24:04

this is why we're like it and

24:06

everybody else should try to be like this kind

24:09

of thing .

24:12

I wonder if the previous train

24:14

of thought was kind of leading

24:17

to this kind of diminishing of vision

24:19

. I guess , whether globally or just

24:22

New Zealand , Sometimes Wellington feels

24:24

like there's no vision and we're just like putting

24:26

in , just trying to keep the place running , just trying to keep

24:28

the pipes alive , you know , just

24:30

trying to replace the pipes . Yeah

24:33

, I think people are scared of vision

24:35

and manifestos because maybe there's like

24:37

this individualist aspect to

24:39

it which people seem scared of at

24:41

the moment .

24:42

Is that that tall poppy syndrome issue that

24:44

we've got , that we've already touched on ?

24:46

I really think it is . It's

24:49

kind of ingrained into a lot of the processes

24:51

behind projects as well . So

24:54

all our public buildings are kind

24:56

of committee projects now , whereas

24:58

you're not going to get like a Sydney

25:01

Opera House through a committee . So

25:05

I feel like sometimes maybe there's

25:07

less of a window for really

25:09

beautiful individualist works

25:11

of architecture where you might just

25:14

spark something really special in the

25:16

hopes of a committee coming

25:18

to the same conclusion .

25:19

Well , it's interesting , gerard , that you make that point

25:21

, because I think that

25:23

statement and actually a little

25:25

bit of what we've talked about as well , you know , that

25:27

tall poppy syndrome and like a little bit of that

25:29

application as well , sort of like woven together

25:31

the threads of our sort of last three

25:33

conversations and maybe

25:36

less so the Zuru one . But you know , from

25:38

this season , and maybe

25:41

it is the fact that what we're coming

25:43

to terms with ourselves currently

25:46

through the making of this podcast , is

25:48

that we're maybe just

25:50

kind of following the same

25:52

path as so many others

25:54

and that maybe it's okay

25:57

and perhaps we should start

25:59

to just put your hand up , put your voice

26:01

out there and be a little bit more strident

26:03

and strong , and whether

26:05

that be design or concepts or whatever

26:08

, you know yeah , better way to stand

26:10

out a little bit yeah , totally , man , and

26:12

I think that that's a huge , it's

26:14

huge problem with

26:17

us in general . It kind

26:20

of goes back to what lisa said in the last episode we're

26:22

really bad at putting ourselves

26:25

out there . We need to be better at it . So

26:27

why not do it with a manifesto ? Why

26:29

not do it on like a grand , you know , with

26:31

a grand statement ? We're in a grand scale .

26:33

I'll start today , but you're in the

26:35

right place taking notes well , you're in the right place

26:37

for inspiration , mate .

26:39

It's hard , to hard , to be inspired to write

26:41

your grand manifesto and grey

26:44

about to be daylight savings

26:46

, wellington , when you're swanning around overseas

26:48

in Copenhagen .

26:49

I know , and it's nice and sunny , but hey , it

26:52

is cold here . So you got that

26:54

going for you over in New Zealand .

26:56

Yeah .

26:57

You just went and saw the big

27:00

ski field yesterday I did see the

27:02

ski field .

27:02

it's pretty stunning that's a hell of a

27:04

proof of concept yeah

27:07

, just the lifestyle over here in general

27:09

is like pretty

27:11

epic did it embody his manifesto

27:14

or his like manifesto .

27:15

Statement of yes is more 100

27:19

it's massive but it

27:21

, but , but it , but it does . Right like , okay

27:23

, he could have just done a power plant , but

27:26

he went . I'm gonna put a ski field

27:28

on the outside of the thing and there's a climbing

27:30

wall up the side as well .

27:31

Right like just massive

27:33

climbing wall like pile program thank

27:36

you like .

27:37

Pile program onto something , because why

27:39

not ? You know yeah , yeah

27:41

, definitely I love and I love that that

27:44

you know in the flesh it is a real proof

27:46

of concept it's pretty interesting

27:48

though , because we just came from hamburg

27:50

in germany .

27:51

There and it is as

27:53

you were saying before , gerard I don't

27:55

know who was , you know , originally

27:58

designing these buildings but like

28:00

the new part of cobenhagen

28:02

and the new part of Hamburg are really

28:04

actually like real similar kind of architectural

28:07

styles . I guess they're not that

28:10

far apart , but it's kind of interesting

28:12

that it's becoming like the global .

28:15

How new though , Like . Is that post-war

28:17

or is that like new as in 21st

28:20

?

28:20

century . No like new as in in within

28:22

the last 20 years

28:24

.

28:24

Yeah , right , so they are kind

28:27

of that globalised .

28:29

It's all kind of merging that vanillaisation

28:31

of architecture globally is

28:33

still everywhere , probably stems

28:36

from this side of the world , but it's definitely kind

28:38

of making its way around and it is really

28:40

good architecture , you know , but

28:43

it is , as Gerard says , like everyone's

28:45

kind of copying

28:47

to a certain degree .

28:50

Are there any less so manifestos

28:52

, but maybe movements Like are

28:54

there any historical movements or

28:57

previous movements in architecture that you guys

28:59

still draw upon regularly

29:02

?

29:02

finding it hard to go past sort of like just

29:04

mid-century forms and furniture

29:06

and stuff yeah , it

29:09

was a time that was pretty well

29:12

who ?

29:13

got the fundamentals right yeah , they kind of

29:15

really nailed it . I'm

29:17

the same in a way , but you know you don't see

29:19

a lot of people leaning back into

29:21

sort of like classical

29:23

bend on your like , doric

29:25

.

29:25

Ionic and Corinthian column situation

29:28

anymore . That

29:30

part's true and we've talked about this

29:32

a whole bunch before . But , man , like the

29:36

decorative elements just really

29:38

were like the pride of

29:40

these buildings , you know , and it's

29:43

just , you walk around here and every single building

29:45

has that aspect to it .

29:47

What about postmodern ?

29:47

It was hard on structure , but

29:50

we talked about this before and

29:52

I'd love to bring that back somehow . It's

29:54

just so much harder , it seems so much more

29:56

superficial with timber , you

29:58

know , when you've got like amazing brick

30:00

or stone elements that are just like

30:03

so grand .

30:05

Yeah , or pretty , like epic timber

30:07

churches and stuff which sort of tie

30:09

in a lot of that . But I think like

30:11

that perfectly segues into

30:14

that Bauhaus

30:16

manifesto , which is like talking

30:20

about how architecture is like the

30:22

height of art . Craftsmen back in the

30:24

day used to get to work on

30:26

buildings and you wouldn't

30:28

get any of that detail that you

30:30

saw in Gothic or classical architecture

30:32

without these extreme

30:34

craftsmen or artists , sculptors

30:37

that would be working directly on a building

30:39

. You don't really see that anymore .

30:42

No , you don't in

30:44

general , but I'd say that with

30:46

a lot of civic or public buildings , particularly

30:48

in New Zealand , we're starting to see that a lot more

30:51

Like a CNC cast mould

30:53

or something . Yeah , I guess there's not

30:55

stuff not really being hand

30:57

involved .

30:58

Does that profession still exist , though ? Gerard

31:01

, definitely I follow lots

31:03

of who would do that ?

31:05

well , it's probably more of like a thing

31:07

that takes place in Europe , more because they've

31:09

got so many stone buildings to maintain yeah , but

31:12

even Europe has forgotten how to build a lot

31:14

of these stone buildings yeah

31:17

, but you've just got to go to the place where they all

31:19

are so like we

31:27

have lots of craftsmen .

31:29

It'd be interesting to see whether

31:31

, post the completion of a building

31:34

like the sagrada familiar and there's really I

31:36

can't really think of any other example

31:38

that's spanned the course of time , you

31:41

know , from a point where the

31:43

level of craftsmanship that you're speaking

31:45

to gerard , and having those artists on site

31:47

molding everything , doing everything physically

31:50

, to modern

31:52

day where everything's a little bit more factory reset

31:54

and that's kind of like a perfect example

31:56

of the merging of those two cultures and

31:59

like , and the realization of of

32:02

um , of that building , post

32:05

that I wonder if anything will come of

32:07

it . You know , like will will the skill set that's

32:09

learned through that hundred and

32:11

however many years it is that that building's been under

32:13

construction . Do you reckon that will permeate at

32:15

all or do you think that's just a unique case ?

32:18

Like . Are those employees going

32:20

to carry on with

32:22

?

32:23

ample employment opportunities . Well , and the researchers

32:25

and you know the team behind

32:28

that building is . It's insane

32:30

, and the technology that they've developed

32:32

specifically to complete it . Is

32:36

that just going to be lost , or

32:39

is there a mechanism for it to be employed throughout

32:42

modern buildings ?

32:43

Yeah , they just need to start a church , a new

32:45

church , just down the road

32:47

. Yeah , just start down the road .

32:49

Another 100-year church 200 .

32:51

Yeah , just start down the road , another 100-year church , 200

32:53

. Yeah , I wonder what the

32:55

nuts and bolts of what they've learned is , because

32:58

you're seeing a lot of precast elements going

33:00

in . Are

33:02

they all carved stone and then glued

33:05

together or something ?

33:06

But it's precasting . Did they learn all

33:08

this from a manifesto ?

33:12

That's what I want . Well , yeah , I mean gaudy

33:14

gaudy kind of kind of had a manifesto in a

33:16

way , right like it

33:19

was , like you know , all of his stuff was influenced

33:21

by the forces of nature , was

33:23

essentially his whole bit . So

33:25

I guess that's a manifesto to a degree

33:28

. The force of nature on the built environment

33:30

, you know . But I

33:32

don't do you think , gerard

33:34

, that that like real , real hands-on

33:37

, very intricate detailing

33:39

, let's call them almost like the jewelers of the of

33:41

the building industry type approach

33:44

is , that is , is

33:46

that where the real skill lies ? Obviously

33:48

it did . It did traditionally , but in the modern

33:50

day , why can't pre-casting

33:53

and CNC machining and 3D

33:55

printing take that place ? I

33:59

mean , we're just harnessing new technology to kind of deliver the same thing , right ?

34:00

Yeah , well , maybe decisions like

34:02

this , where you're thinking about going

34:05

like a CNC route or a

34:07

handcrafted route , is perhaps where you need

34:09

a manifesto .

34:11

Is this the DPP manifesto ?

34:14

To help you out in these decision-making scenarios . The

34:17

Bauhaus one was very strict . It

34:19

was like architects , sculptors , painters , we must

34:21

all return to crafts . And

34:24

then he , funnily enough , I don't

34:26

know if I agree about this , but he says for art

34:28

is not a profession . Yeah , there is no difference . For art is

34:30

not a profession . Yeah , there is no

34:32

difference between art and the craftsman

34:34

.

34:36

Gerard , you're still finding that out the hard way

34:38

, though , eh .

34:39

I hate it and love it at the same time . The artist is

34:41

an exalted craftsman . In rare moments

34:44

of inspiration transcending

34:46

the consciousness of his will and grace , the

34:48

heaven may cause his work to bloom into art

34:50

. He makes the argument that artists

34:52

should have , should have a knowledge of craft

34:55

, which I appreciate , which I I

34:57

think sometimes is lacking is

34:59

that where your , where your skill set comes in

35:01

?

35:01

both you guys really be ? You know , being with your

35:03

building background and gerard with your furniture

35:06

making background . Am I the one who's dragging the chain

35:08

here ? I don't have my crafty , I don't have my

35:10

get crafted , make it hands-on , but I like model making . Does that count ? Finish making background

35:12

. Am I the one who's dragging the chain here ? I don't have my crafty , I don't have my hands on background

35:14

. I like model making . Does that count ? Get to craft and earn . I'm playing with Lego . My

35:17

daughter's Lego is somewhere behind me .

35:20

Is that enough ? I think so . Lego

35:23

is the modern marble sculpting .

35:25

Yeah , just Lego building . I mean Biaga

35:28

built an entire building based off Lego building . I mean they are going to build an entire building based

35:30

off Lego . They'll find it in here somewhere .

35:31

Was that the Lego building

35:35

? I mean , you know , yeah .

35:38

The Lego building .

35:39

It is just Lego building Lego , building for Lego

35:42

. That's cool yeah .

35:45

Is that Copenhagen , are you

35:47

?

35:47

going to go there ? I don't know actually . Can you guys see that

35:50

, ben ? I don't know actually .

35:50

Here you go . Can you guys see that this

35:53

isn't the Lego building ?

35:55

but that's just Legos to do design development

35:57

.

35:58

It's really cool .

36:00

I like that style of big MDRDB

36:03

style architecture , like

36:05

the blocking . It's kind of like Minecraft

36:08

eating away at something .

36:09

Yeah , I mean it's the pragmatic followed by the form right , like it's the of , like minecraft eating away at something . Yeah , I mean , it's that

36:11

, it's the pragmatic followed by the form right , like

36:13

it's the form following function . You

36:15

know , they're taking , they're taking it , they're

36:18

taking a programmatic piece and

36:20

they're kind of like allotting

36:22

to it all of its maximum constraints

36:24

and then they're going all right . What can

36:26

we do to this to make it better ? Basically

36:28

, it's a very simple exercise . It

36:30

it's push , pull , twist , turn , flip

36:33

, cut .

36:34

I think the beauty is in the distilling

36:37

of the idea and then communicating it backwards

36:39

in such a simple way . I'd

36:42

be amazed if that was the exact design

36:44

process .

36:45

Yeah , that's probably the absolute pinnacle of

36:47

the architect post-rationalisation

36:50

.

36:52

I think you need that . They do keep it quite simple

36:54

, yeah .

36:57

I think you need those diagrams sometimes to communicate

36:59

something to somebody . You've got this strange

37:01

object . Why are we doing that ? How did you get there ?

37:04

And , funnily enough , often

37:06

your thought process . I

37:09

don't know about you guys , but when you're , when you're in concept

37:11

design , you're constantly designing in the back of your head

37:13

. Sometimes you'll jot it down on paper but

37:15

or model , or quickly like model

37:18

something or get an idea out , but , like

37:20

, oftentimes it's not happening . But you're generating

37:23

that stuff always in the back of your mind and

37:25

so , like , post rationalization does make perfect

37:27

sense because often you'll come up with a solution

37:29

and then and then you'll like backtrack

37:31

mentally and be like , well , how did I get here ? And

37:34

you know , and that's how you kind of like build that story

37:36

, that narrative behind it . You're right , you're right . Very

37:38

rarely do you go I do this , then

37:40

I do this , then I do that then

37:44

I do this

37:47

and I . Maybe that's how AI will approach

37:49

things in the future . Let's not get back onto that .

37:51

Yeah , I got told that first

37:53

year of uni I did something

37:55

out of instinct , kind of almost

37:57

apologized it to the tutor . I was like , oh , I

37:59

don't know why I did this , I just did this . He's like , yeah

38:02

, you do , Somewhere in your brain you've had a reason

38:04

.

38:07

Now you just got to go figure out why you did

38:09

that . That's good from your tutor . That's better than some

38:11

of the tutors that I had who were basically

38:13

like , well , where's your processing , where's

38:15

your thinking , where's your precedent ? Like an idea doesn't

38:17

come from nothing , justify yourself , basically

38:20

. And like ideas do sometimes just

38:22

come from nothing , you can have a design epiphany

38:24

, that's fine .

38:25

Yeah , and like you , are what

38:27

you eat to a degree , so your brain's

38:29

its

38:31

own little AI . Yeah , you're

38:34

influenced , or a volatile

38:36

bank of knowledge , that you're blending shit

38:38

together and coming out with something .

38:41

And that kind of lends itself to that vanillaization

38:43

of the global built environment , right

38:46

when everything kind of becomes pretty normal

38:48

across the board , is because we're being fed

38:50

on a regular basis through , through all these

38:52

devices and social media and all this

38:54

stuff , this same regurgitation of

38:56

style and things , and

38:58

probably why this hasn't been like

39:01

such a strong like revolt

39:03

to a , to a certain style , because there hasn't

39:06

been like a group of people or

39:08

, you know , a school of thought

39:10

that's been in isolation , that hasn't been influenced

39:12

by that . That's like simmering down , you know , under

39:14

the surface and all of a sudden they erupt with this brand new

39:16

idea . I'd love for that to happen , that'd be super

39:19

interesting . But I just kind of

39:21

our own architectural style yeah

39:23

, should we just shut off our phones and just see

39:25

where we go see ?

39:26

where we get to slowly trying AI architecture .

39:28

See where we get to Slowly trying to develop

39:30

a fat architecture . A fat

39:32

architecture ? Yeah , like Erwin . Like

39:34

a fat building . Oh yeah , some

39:37

hydroform buildings yeah , that'd be nice . Some

39:40

chubby buildings , cute fat

39:43

buildings . One of my favorite buildings

39:45

is like biomockery . We

39:47

just like a duck building .

39:48

Did you say biomockery or biomimicry

39:50

?

39:53

Yeah , no mockery , we just like do you say biomockery or biomimicry ? Yeah , no , not biomimicry , biomockery we

39:55

. Your building is just like I'm gonna make a duck , a building referencing a duck , and it's

39:57

just a duck building it like , looks like

39:59

a duck it sounds a bit too literal for

40:01

me is that like old frank gary's binocular

40:04

binocular ? Yeah , it's just that's

40:06

good man , it's hilarious . I like it brings

40:09

.

40:09

Bring some of that to the build environment I feel like

40:11

there's a lot of like midwest . I

40:13

feel like there's a lot of midwest kind of like

40:15

american buildings that kind of lean into

40:17

that pretty heavily I

40:20

wonder if you could

40:22

.

40:22

You could do a mockery of that almost

40:24

.

40:25

Yeah , like I'm mockery

40:27

, I'm gonna reference this become

40:29

by doing incredibly meta here , but this is it , this is , this is , but this is . I'm going to reference a spec . I'm getting incredibly

40:31

meta here , but this is it . This

40:35

is the kind of thinking that you're required

40:37

to have to develop a manifesto

40:39

. You know , because if we just

40:41

and you've got to run with it , like at any point

40:43

, if you go , oh nah

40:45

, people will think I'm an idiot , then your

40:47

manifesto is never going to get any legs , whereas

40:49

if you just kind of like lean all the way

40:51

in , then maybe you'll get somewhere . Who knows

40:53

, there's some there .

40:56

There's some wings there , my duck building

40:58

.

40:59

What about , kind of ? To close , have

41:01

you guys got any thoughts

41:04

about where architecture might go ? You know

41:06

we've talked a lot about manifestos , a little

41:08

bit about movements , but it'd be really interesting

41:10

. I mean , mean , I don't really even know what movement

41:12

you'd call the current

41:14

one , maybe to the global globalization movement

41:16

yeah , global yeah yeah I

41:19

mean , I think people sort of called it

41:21

the sustainability movement , but

41:23

I don't necessarily think that that holds true

41:26

across the board yeah , I don't think many

41:28

of them are actually sustainable . They're

41:30

just using that word . Yeah , I think it's just

41:32

that greenwashing concept , right ? So

41:36

where do you think architecture might

41:38

go have ? You ever thought about this .

41:40

Yeah , I think I could head down that path a

41:42

lot further . This is

41:44

kind of why I'm so interested in art and

41:47

interesting ways of form-finding

41:49

, in the hope that , as

41:51

people closer

41:53

and closer into what they're creating , hopefully

41:56

you can keep

41:58

creating interesting things I think it'll be gusset

42:00

or stoke when someone steals

42:02

your , when someone steals

42:05

your concepts people

42:07

steal my ideas all the time , but I just haven't

42:09

told them about it . You know , you see something out

42:11

in the wild , you're like , oh shit , that was my idea .

42:14

But is that parallel thinking or is that

42:16

direct ?

42:17

no , no parallel thinking yeah it's

42:20

when you think something's your idea , but you realize

42:22

you know there's lots of ideas out there . It's just

42:24

like who's going to act on the idea , do you guys ?

42:26

find that when you come up with a concept like

42:28

maybe a building concept or a detail or like

42:30

a wee moment or something , and

42:33

you're really proud of yourself and you develop

42:35

it up , and then somebody next

42:37

to you or somebody leans over your shoulder and goes I've

42:39

seen that before and then shows you a precedent and

42:41

you're like fuck , I

42:44

thought I was being original .

42:46

People actually do that to me to take

42:48

the piss . I tell them I have an

42:50

idea , so . So then , whenever they see something on Instagram

42:53

I've done that a couple of times

42:55

it sends me through something that

42:58

looks exactly like a sketch of a drawer . I'm like

43:00

, wow , are you serious ? I thought

43:02

I was original , but no .

43:05

But is that a fear of the movement that we're

43:07

moving into ? Is that there's no more original

43:10

thought ?

43:10

Is there a fear

43:12

of the movement that we're moving

43:15

into Is that there's no more original thought . Well

43:18

, I've referenced this before about I don't think in this context , but

43:20

when I was a child I wanted to be an inventor and I remember being

43:22

real disappointed because in that particular moment I couldn't think of

43:25

a new idea . I think that's kind

43:27

of what my whole

43:29

existence is is trying

43:31

to be an inventor . So I'm out here in my workshop

43:33

trying to create new things I

43:35

love that . It's easy to create a new idea . You

43:37

just put yourself into it . So

43:39

it's more about like a design mechanism and

43:42

tricking yourself into new things than it is like

43:44

trying to tense your brain

43:46

until you think of something , yeah , and

43:49

process .

43:49

So , like hydroforming , you lose

43:51

control in the process intentionally

43:53

, so you come up with something that's funny

43:55

because I feel like your approach , gerard

43:57

, and what you're looking to achieve is and

44:00

to your credit , to be honest it's

44:02

the complete opposite in the way that the industry

44:04

is moving , because I feel like it's heading in there

44:06

, like back to the zero

44:08

conversation . It's heading in that zero direction

44:11

. It's heading in that mass

44:13

scale , mass produced ai , press play

44:15

, beat book , minecraft kind of

44:17

people direction , you know

44:19

, rather than it being like really

44:22

personal and process driven and like concept

44:25

heavy and all that sort of stuff and I

44:27

don't know . I feel feel like that's the

44:29

movement that we might be moving into .

44:31

Zero .

44:33

Yeah , well , just into what do

44:35

we call out the end of this

44:37

? You know ? When there's a huge revolt

44:39

in 50 years' time and suddenly

44:42

we're all living in mud huts again or something . But

44:44

you know , what do we look back

44:46

on this time ?

44:47

as Do we see it as the generation movement , as in like

44:49

the generation movement , as in like just

44:51

mass generation um , possibility

44:54

would be that , because of all this

44:56

new technology , we kind of start to create

44:59

and find new forms which I

45:01

guess are like a lot of people are

45:03

already kind of working on .

45:04

Yeah , true , starting to pop up

45:07

around the world it's a nice way of thinking about it , as a

45:09

positive way of like looking at the use of technology

45:11

. Maybe my view on the technology is a bit

45:13

negative , but yeah , I like that idea .

45:16

Yeah , use it where you can , but

45:19

I think , yeah , I

45:21

kind of see it all as kind of heading down the

45:23

same path , but

45:25

I think , trying to make an active

45:28

decision to go down the Wolf and Groupius route

45:30

.

45:30

Yeah , nice .

45:31

Returning to the crafts . But

45:34

yeah , we're going to see where that road goes , see

45:37

if it works . We could all be wrong . I could be wrong

45:39

. Maybe I'm in

45:41

my mud hut for no reason .

45:44

So , to finish up , guys and we didn't do

45:46

it last week with Lisa but

45:49

love it or hate it , architectural

45:52

manifestos Do you love

45:54

them and we didn't do it

45:57

last week with Lisa .

45:57

But love it or hate it . Architectural manifestos Do you

45:59

love them or do you hate them ? I think bring it back . I

46:03

did used to read Zipthal's Atmospheres a bit and an architect that I've been very influenced

46:05

by , and they're influenced

46:07

by a lot of architects like Holtrop

46:09

and his processes

46:13

, so there are definitely things

46:15

that I follow in other architects

46:17

that they like to speak about . So I think

46:19

consciously there's a little bit of

46:21

manifesto action in there somewhere .

46:23

Yeah , I agree , I

46:26

love it . I think I don't engage

46:28

with it enough because you kind of get caught

46:30

up in your day-to-day a little bit , but

46:32

I think the capacity should be there to

46:35

interact with the concept of manifestos

46:37

and to delve more into maybe

46:39

there are modern manifestos we're just not out

46:41

there looking for them that we should be looking at

46:43

. So I love it . I'm going to try and make a change

46:45

. Thanks for the suggestion . Whoever told

46:47

us to talk about this ?

46:51

Yeah , I'm definitely pro as well . I

46:53

just have a hard time saying that

46:55

because I haven't read a manifesto

46:57

for a long time , so I feel it's

47:00

a bit kind of fake . But

47:02

yeah , maybe I do need

47:04

to read some

47:06

stuff .

47:07

That's enough , and I think listeners can probably take this on board as well . Some stuff , but that's enough , and I think listeners can probably

47:09

take this on board as well . We're probably all a

47:11

bit , you know

47:13

, we're all a bit guilty of just falling into

47:15

the everyday , you know , rather

47:17

than seeking that

47:19

extra bit of knowledge

47:21

. So maybe that's it . Maybe the manifesto

47:24

is to , maybe the greater manifesto

47:27

is to find

47:29

outside influence , or to increase outside

47:32

influence , or something I don't know . Speaking

47:34

of , outside influence .

47:35

If anyone has any good manifesto

47:37

recs , definitely send them our way

47:40

, especially like modern . It'd be interesting to read

47:42

some modern ones .

47:43

Yeah , it'd be cool if listeners have got any suggestions

47:45

of putting them on the show notes . We'd love to

47:47

know . Send us in your own or your own yeah , yeah , I think we should get show

47:49

notes ? We'd love to know . Send us in your own or your own

47:51

.

47:51

yeah , yeah , I think we should

47:53

get into that a little bit more .

47:54

Top manifesto .

47:56

You don't have to publish it and put it on Instagram for the world

47:58

to see , but maybe even just distilling some

48:00

of your own design intentions

48:03

and ideas might be a way of keeping

48:05

yourself in check , keeping yourself on track .

48:09

And helps you develop as a designer . That

48:12

iterative process and that learn you

48:14

know that succeed , fail kind of cycle

48:16

succeed , fail , learn , succeed , fail

48:18

, learn cycle is so important to to developing

48:21

as a better designer . Nice

48:23

thanks , come along , all right guys . Good chat

48:25

you

48:40

.