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0:27

Welcome back to the Design Principles Podcast

0:29

. You're here with myself , gerard , ben and Sam

0:31

. Today we are joined by

0:33

Lisa Webb of Studio LWA

0:36

, the winner of the 2021

0:38

Ian Athfield Award for Housing . She's

0:41

based in Auckland and creates

0:43

some very intentional and considered

0:45

architecture . I particularly like her use

0:48

of section and

0:50

sunlight and section specifically

0:52

. We

0:54

architects generally do like

0:56

a thoughtful use of section . In

0:59

this podcast , we discuss the importance

1:01

of the NZAA and

1:03

its role in advocating for the architectural

1:06

profession . While we don't want to pile on , we do

1:08

want to have a good , constructive conversation

1:11

around how our profession is viewed by

1:13

New Zealanders and how

1:16

can we engage more with the non-architect

1:18

world , ultimately , for the good of us

1:20

all . We ask what is currently

1:22

being done to advocate for architecture , our

1:27

level of involvement in the public discourse . We ask are we

1:29

absenting ourselves from the public

1:32

discussion and

1:34

what can we do to improve the profession's

1:36

involvement and standing in New Zealand

1:38

and potentially bring us back into

1:40

the fold ? I hope you enjoy

1:42

our conversation with Lisa . I

1:58

got onto Lisa by

2:00

Samantha Zontag from

2:02

Sundane Architects .

2:04

All right .

2:06

Yeah , we were having a passionate rant

2:08

myself , her and her husband just

2:11

about marketing and whatever , and

2:14

then she sent me your email , so

2:16

it's kind of a continuation of our

2:18

rant .

2:21

Yeah , actually it was a conversation that I had with her before Christmas

2:23

. It was one of the sort of crystallizing

2:25

conversations I had . She was talking

2:28

about how she was going

2:30

to take the time she had over Christmas , you

2:32

know , with a sort of not a huge amount

2:34

of workflow , to write a booklet about

2:36

what architects bring to the table and how they do

2:38

things differently from group home providers

2:41

, or drafts people or know architectural

2:43

designers or that kind of she was talking about . You

2:46

know how do I explain to my clients endlessly

2:48

that we add value to the picture and

2:51

I thought , oh , that sounds like something someone

2:53

else could do for all of them

2:56

.

2:56

She doesn't have to do all the mahi , but if she's

2:58

, if she's done it , sam please share

3:01

it Exactly

3:03

, but it really hit on the nail for me

3:05

.

3:05

One . One of the problems which , you know

3:07

, I sort of feel like the thing that I'm worried

3:09

about is the sort of younger , the younger architectural

3:12

practices out there , and I think

3:14

a lot of the bigger practices you

3:16

know , whose voices are heard , don't deal

3:18

with the same sort of stuff that you do when you're smaller

3:21

and starting out . You know so the endless

3:23

amount of energy that you put into advocating

3:26

for yourself and describing what you do and why

3:29

you're worth paying for and all that kind of stuff

3:31

.

3:31

So I thought that was , you know , that was one of the

3:33

things that kind of drove me to write the bulletin

3:35

piece yeah , that's awesome

3:37

and , as a bit of context for you , we

3:39

basically established this podcast

3:41

for a very similar reason , which is kind

3:44

of creating more awareness just around

3:46

design in general .

3:48

So there's definitely some crossovers there

3:50

as well yeah , I think we found

3:52

that and you sort of alluded to this

3:54

as well in your piece and it's

3:56

a frustration that we've voiced quite

3:58

often on the podcast that a lot of architectural content

4:01

and architects in general

4:04

and the awards is

4:06

targeted back at ourselves , which is

4:08

lovely for self-support but

4:10

not great for building a good client base

4:12

. So , yeah , it

4:14

was a big purpose for starting this podcast is to

4:16

sort of demystify , debunk kind of

4:19

like , just make these

4:21

sort of discussions and awareness a

4:23

little bit more accessible to ourselves

4:25

, the architectural profession , but also

4:28

the general public , and I'd

4:30

say our listener base is

4:32

pretty varied , which

4:34

is a good indication that we do have

4:37

non-architects tuning in

4:39

and trying to find out more .

4:40

I guess on the back of that , the three of us as well are young practicers . We're pretty early in our . We

4:42

all have our own companies to some degree . Out more , I guess , on the the back of that , the three of us as

4:44

well are young practices . We're pretty early in our . We all

4:46

have our own companies to

4:48

some degree . But like the marketing

4:50

and how to get clients and how how you run

4:52

the practice , sometimes you feel like you're , I

4:55

work alone by myself in a in my office

4:58

, so I don't really have people

5:00

around me . So it's nice when you actually

5:03

have these chats with somebody and you kind of realize

5:05

you're , you're not alone and

5:07

everyone else has frustrations around

5:09

marketing and like what

5:11

is what is going on ? Why is why

5:13

is this so hard ? Am I allowed to market ? Yeah

5:16

, yeah , that's , that's a hilarious

5:18

question , isn't it ?

5:19

yeah , for so long I thought you weren't allowed

5:21

shall I give you my thoughts yeah

5:23

please fire away you

5:26

want me to introduce myself for the podcast

5:28

, or how do you do that ?

5:29

long I thought you weren't

5:31

allowed . Shall I give you my thoughts ? Yeah , please Fire away . Do you want

5:33

me to introduce myself for the podcast , or how do you do that

5:35

?

5:35

Yeah , we will do an introduction at the beginning , but I guess , yeah , just

5:37

as a quick overview , that

5:41

would be awesome . Yeah , so kia ora kato kato ko . Lisa Weberhoe . I'm an architect based in Auckland

5:43

and I have my own practice and I was thinking it's probably important to note

5:46

that I graduated in the mid-90s

5:48

, so just to give a bit of generational

5:50

expertise and also just awareness

5:52

of , you know , I've seen this before and

5:56

I was thinking , when you invited me , how

5:58

to sort of approach my thoughts , which

6:00

have been a little bit sort of , you know , high

6:03

energy , shall we say this

6:15

whole subject . So I was thinking back in 2014

6:18

, the NZIA did a practice series , a

6:21

sort of series of lectures , and one of the lecturers was a woman from LA who was

6:23

a PR specialist and her company specializes in PR for architects

6:25

and her name was Julie Taylor

6:27

and she came out and I distinctly

6:30

remember her standing at the podium in the

6:32

lecture theater and she had a copy

6:34

of the Herald newspaper

6:36

. Basically all she did was lift up

6:38

the newspaper and say okay , this is what came to

6:41

me in my hotel room this morning

6:43

Story about a major infrastructure

6:45

project . Where's the comment from the architect

6:47

? Then she turned the page and she said artist's

6:49

impression of what looks like an architecturally

6:51

designed building , who's there ? And

6:54

something about , you know , education and schooling

6:56

. Well , where's the comment from the architect ? And just basically , page

6:58

after page after page in the Herald . She

7:00

ripped us a new one , told us

7:03

how useless we were and

7:06

we all walked out of the lecture . Well , I walked out of the lecture thinking , yes

7:09

, you know , we're going to do something about this , we're going to

7:11

acknowledge that this is a problem . We're going to start

7:13

, you know , thinking about how

7:15

we present ourselves to the

7:17

public and how we sort of stand up for ourselves

7:20

and communicate the value that we bring . And

7:22

, of course , you know , in the 10 years I

7:24

realised since that lecture , pretty

7:26

much nothing has happened . We

7:29

don't seem to have moved the dial very

7:31

far . And then , in 2021

7:35

, I put my house into

7:37

the awards , and it was the first project I've ever

7:39

entered into an awards programme

7:43

and I won , and

7:45

I won the RCN Asfield

7:47

Award for housing . Congratulations

7:49

, I've seen that .

7:50

It's very impressive .

7:52

It was a bit of a shock , but one of the things

7:54

that happened out of that was that it was during COVID

7:56

. So they shot a video of

7:58

me getting the award and

8:01

I'm still getting clients coming in referencing

8:03

that video Like it's out there

8:05

in the world . I

8:09

have sort of clear

8:11

sort of understanding of the value that

8:13

that piece of videography has

8:15

created for my business and , you

8:17

know , it really underscores to me the importance of

8:19

storytelling , like telling stories

8:22

and hearing the voices from our clients and

8:24

all that sort of stuff that people are sort of suggesting

8:26

doing more of . So there was that

8:28

and then a couple of years ago some

8:31

friends of mine , Tom Gill and

8:33

Hala , finished the co-house

8:36

in Surrey Crescent , If you guys are familiar

8:38

with that project .

8:39

Yep , I've been to that . It's awesome .

8:40

Yeah , really like an intense

8:43

achievement . You know , shepherding a

8:45

whole group of people with different ideas and

8:47

different sort of breeds together

8:49

to create something collaboratively and

8:52

something that basically an apartment in

8:54

the co-house for the similar value

8:56

of a developer-led apartment

8:59

across the road . You get the same kind

9:01

of apartment but you also get the use of a shared

9:03

guest space . You get a garden house . You

9:05

get a garden so you're living on greenery

9:07

and vegetables and all that sort of stuff . And then

9:10

you go there and there's this wonderful rabble

9:12

of kids running around and people sort of living

9:14

you know best lives

9:17

. It seems to me and compelling . We did , we

9:19

did it with a developer client of mine

9:21

and like the difference between seeing

9:24

the sad woman in the flesh you

9:26

know townhouse developer apartment

9:28

sort of folding her nappies on her own and then going

9:30

over there and seeing all these kids and the

9:32

, you know , having that sense of community

9:34

and takes a village and all that stuff . Like I knew

9:36

I knew which one I preferred . But when it

9:38

was reviewed it was reviewed sort

9:41

of architecturally and it was found to

9:43

be sort of wanting with respect

9:45

to sort of poetry and a little bit more

9:47

, you know

9:49

, maybe prosaic than the reviewer was kind

9:51

of expecting . So there was kind of talk

9:54

around why isn't there a meadow ? You know , why are

9:56

there vegetables ? Why isn't there a meadow ? And

9:58

I sort of realized that , you know , it really started

10:01

me thinking about this issue . Why

10:04

do we not have a voice in the housing crisis

10:06

? Why are we not taken seriously ? Why

10:09

are we privileging meadows

10:11

over vegetables and

10:13

kids having space to run around ? It

10:16

was a moment where I just realized that I feel

10:18

like we're looking at the wrong

10:21

things . Does that make sense ?

10:23

Yeah , definitely . That whole expectation

10:25

about what a property , especially

10:28

in the residential sector , like what a property

10:30

should consist of and

10:32

what , what you know what amenities

10:34

it should have and what spaces it should

10:36

have , is just crazy

10:38

in my opinion . Any kind of european

10:41

style projects with

10:43

medium density or anything like that in this country

10:46

just gets shunned straight

10:48

away because , uh , you know , it doesn't

10:50

have a private yard or a private

10:52

this or private that .

10:54

Yeah , it's just very interesting I

10:56

just sort of feel like they had , they

10:58

had , they had made a real achievement and

11:00

it wasn't really acknowledged by the community . Because

11:03

you know we were looking at .

11:04

You know gutter , details and all

11:07

the stuff that maybe isn't the most important

11:09

thing to be looking at yeah , they

11:11

created a community , a really

11:13

well-functioning community

11:15

, and everyone there , just you know , loves

11:17

it and loves the design and it works

11:19

so well for them .

11:21

But you compare that to a

11:24

similar type of project and , yeah

11:26

, I mean like it's just an individual

11:29

in their individual house and

11:32

I think this is this is the

11:34

one of the cornerstone issues , right is that architecture

11:37

is thought of as a built , as a building , or the

11:39

built element only , and it doesn't necessarily

11:41

take into consideration the way that

11:43

it's embodied you know , client and human interaction

11:45

, all of those sort of things , and it's't necessarily take into consideration the way that it's embodied , you know , client and human interaction , all of those

11:47

sort of things , and it's the story of architecture that really makes something

11:49

successful . The building can be from

11:52

mediocre to exceptional

11:54

, but if it has an exceptional

11:56

story behind it , it's an exceptional piece

11:58

of architecture . In my opinion

12:00

anyway , and I think that's often lost

12:02

Lacey to your point . You know , in

12:05

my opinion anyway , and I think that's often lost Lacey to your point , you know , with some critique

12:07

or through the award system or anything , is that narrative is

12:10

often not presented , and I think that

12:12

is where maybe the public's

12:14

not maybe misconception , but misunderstanding

12:17

of what we do as architects lands

12:19

is that we don't just design buildings

12:21

but we design your life

12:24

really , that we don't just design buildings but we design your life

12:26

really . So , ultimately , I think that's a point that's never

12:28

really been succinctly

12:30

brought across . I don't

12:32

really know how to do it , because it's so intangible

12:35

as well , I've had some ideas . Fire

12:37

away , please yeah , fire away .

12:41

Yeah . So this is sort of a drum

12:43

that I've been banging for years , like literally

12:45

since 2014 . Every time I had

12:47

a chance to talk to an architect , I'd

12:49

be like you know , what do you think about this ? And I think there

12:51

was always this sense of oh , you know , you're trying to

12:53

make us like the stick man on the pack and save

12:56

ad . But

12:58

last year , of course , I started talking to people and

13:00

all of a sudden , there was much more of a sort of engagement

13:03

about these issues . You know , there was a

13:05

sort of a confluence of a whole lot of issues that

13:07

came together around . Obviously , the economy's

13:10

the big one In a political

13:12

situation . I personally found

13:14

it really difficult to hear

13:17

Erica Stanford get on the podium and say the reason

13:19

all the school projects have been cancelled is because

13:21

of and I'm quoting fancy architects . That

13:24

was really challenging , and I'm quoting fancy architects . That was really challenging . And the thing is , that's

13:26

fine , that's your job to

13:28

deflect blood from yourself

13:30

, but it's our job to stand up for ourselves

13:32

and say , well , actually , this is what we

13:34

bring to a school project . And I mean

13:37

, I know that myself because I've been to

13:39

. I've been on a , I've done two tours of

13:41

jury duty . I've been to

13:43

some , you know , a couple of really amazing schools

13:45

one in Nelson that Sheppard Rout

13:47

did , where the teacher literally chased me down the

13:49

stairs saying you

13:53

know , you need to understand how happy we are to be teaching here and how much you know happier

13:56

the kids are and how better they're learning . Like

13:58

these are all lovely stories that are just not

14:00

being communicated and , quite

14:02

frankly , could be communicated , yeah

14:04

. So then I started thinking about well , you

14:07

know what are the issues ? And it sort

14:09

of feels to me out of all of this like , if you

14:11

distill it down , we are suffering from

14:13

a lack of power in our society

14:15

, we

14:18

have a lack of voice and we have a lack of mandate and we have a lack of

14:21

mana . We are sort of struggling

14:23

as a community and I was talking

14:25

to my friend about it this morning and she said you'd

14:27

better be a bit more optimistic than that

14:30

. But if I look at sort

14:32

of the issues of the day right , climate change

14:34

, adaptation and resilience I've written myself

14:37

a list Climate change , adaptation and

14:39

resilience , infrastructure , housing , crisis , community

14:41

building , the developers leading

14:43

the government strategies . Every time you

14:46

hear Chris Pink on the TV

14:48

, you know that , say developers told him . You

14:50

know the scaffolding's really expensive or you

14:53

know this H1 stuff has to go . You know that

14:55

they're listening to . You know

14:57

one part of our construction industry

14:59

and not all of us , not

15:03

all of us

15:05

. So I wrote the piece in the bulletin on

15:08

the 14th of February and

15:10

from that you know I got quite a lot of responses

15:12

. One of my friends , mike

15:14

Hartley do you know him ? He

15:17

hit the nail on the head and

15:19

this is a very Mike Hartley statement . He said pretty pictures are

15:21

very scrollable but have no real sense of

15:23

the agency that the architect brought to bear

15:25

in the project to make it the perfectly tailored

15:28

solution to a unique problem which

15:32

hits that issue that you were

15:34

describing , which is that we provide

15:36

a service but we are judged on the product

15:38

. Yep no-transcript

16:05

stories like the stuff , sam , that you were talking

16:07

about . You know the , the happy stories

16:09

, the kids learning well

16:12

, the clients who enjoy their

16:14

, their , projects . You

16:16

know , like , if you want to look at developer-led

16:19

strategy strategies on the housing

16:21

crisis , and you know weigh that up

16:23

, all you need to do is drive down the northern

16:25

or the northwestern motorway and see the

16:27

developer-led projects and then go to Hobsonville

16:30

and see the difference that

16:32

architect involvement makes literally to

16:34

people's lives . But

16:36

we are not , again , we're not communicating that very well

16:39

. Yeah , it's interesting

16:41

.

16:42

You listed a raft of

16:44

things , issues of the present

16:46

day and I think one thing that

16:48

really stands out to me is , across

16:51

that entire list , there's really

16:53

only one entity that I see that

16:56

has a professional oversight

16:58

across all of those things

17:00

, and that's us . And

17:07

that's us . And I think that that is misunderstood and not presented well enough by ourselves

17:09

and by our profession , because you look at it and you look at things in isolation

17:12

. Let's look at maybe let's look at the environment aspect of

17:14

it , or we look to climate

17:16

strategists or green building councils

17:18

or something , but who else works in that realm

17:20

? Architects ? You look at

17:22

the developer-led stuff okay , you've got people

17:25

williams court building a lot of buildings

17:29

but who can do it better and who has a better

17:31

oversight over that ? Us ? You know , these are just

17:33

. These are just examples , but ultimately

17:36

, what I'm trying to say is like there is one overarching

17:38

profession that has real

17:41

insight into all of these problems and

17:43

that is architects , and I think it's

17:45

an issue in new zealand , and

17:47

that we cherry pick individuals

17:49

to solve problems rather

17:51

than looking at the bigger picture , the holistic

17:54

picture , and finding the right person or the right

17:56

professional , the right entity to tackle

17:58

all of that , and I think that's somewhere where we could

18:00

probably try and you

18:02

know , develop a little bit more . That , speaking to

18:04

clients and people out there that are looking to

18:07

start projects , is you need somebody

18:09

that has that overview , that

18:11

complete overview and that professional

18:13

complete overview as well . We're very informed

18:16

because we're not experts . I'm not going to try and

18:18

say that you know across the board by

18:20

any means , but we're trained , highly

18:22

trained , to be able to find that right information

18:24

, to bring those teams together , to manage

18:26

those teams and to produce beautiful outcomes

18:29

as well . Now we're speaking a lot about

18:31

the emotion , but the aesthetic also can't

18:33

be lost . Yeah , so that's just sort of like my my view

18:35

on it , and I think yeah

18:37

, I mean , have you guys worked on sort of larger

18:39

projects ? not in

18:42

my current life . Ever

18:46

, Not as a RET Architect , but in

18:49

a previous , prior to starting my own practice

18:51

. Yes , big time yeah .

18:53

So , if you work on a big commercial project

18:55

, you see what you know . You see what architects

18:57

bring to the table in terms of what you're describing

19:00

, which is , you know , facilitating the bringing

19:02

together of different people's different perspectives

19:04

consultants you know nutty problems

19:06

, client briefs , planning issues . We

19:09

are the ones who facilitate all that decision

19:11

making . We're the one who integrate all

19:14

the sometimes horrendously

19:17

complex issues and come

19:19

out with , as you say , often an elegant

19:21

, clever solution that hopefully

19:23

meets the client's brief and and

19:25

and budget . You know it's an incredibly complex

19:28

thing that we do and it is not described

19:30

in a picture on instagram yeah

19:32

, yeah I mean I'll give you a . Really

19:34

, this is another thing that sort of set me off . There was

19:36

an article in the newspaper that was um

19:38

, it was about a project that I worked

19:40

on as a , as a , when I was working for studio

19:42

pacific . It's a an amazing . It's

19:46

an amazing . As the Herald article said

19:48

, new Zealand Strong is building

19:50

what is going to be the largest timber span

19:52

structure in New Zealand , and it

19:54

was a great story about what New Zealand Strong

19:56

was and wasn't doing with the structure . It didn't even

19:58

mention the architects . It didn't

20:01

mention what we did or how

20:03

we got there , or the incredible persistence

20:05

and foresight

20:07

of my boss , the way that he planned

20:10

the project , the way he somehow

20:12

managed to get timber technologies

20:15

and Homestar rating into

20:17

what is essentially a giant bubble

20:19

.

20:22

None of that story has been communicated

20:24

, so I have to ask , though , like

20:27

how or when did

20:29

this kind of become an issue ? Like

20:31

how did we kind of get to this , into

20:34

this position to begin with , or has

20:36

it kind of always been like this ? And and

20:39

are there things that we can do , or

20:42

, you know , should we just be relying

20:44

on the nzia to kind

20:46

of get us , get us out of this hole

20:48

, so to speak ?

20:49

well , I think another one of the issues with relying

20:51

on pictures is that we're , you know , we're

20:53

not just communicating the stuff that we do

20:55

actually bring to the table , but we're also reinforcing

20:58

this idea that we're only interested in the

21:00

frilly bits or the bits that look good on pictures

21:02

. so like that's what I mean about it doing sort

21:04

of double duty for us . Like some

21:06

of the comments I got when I wrote in the bulletin

21:08

was we're worried clients won't

21:10

come to us because we're perceived as

21:13

cool and expensive . They

21:15

spend a lot of time justifying Too late

21:17

for that . I guess we're

21:19

seen as generators of risk , not problem

21:21

solvers , strategists or governors

21:23

. So you know , nothing we

21:25

are doing out there is enforcing the value that

21:27

we bring in , and I think you

21:30

know , like why is that that ? I

21:32

mean , I know from my previous experience

21:34

of trying to talk to people about this is that

21:36

there is a general sense that to be a

21:38

professional , you're not supposed to market yourself

21:41

like don't , do we want to talk about ourselves like

21:43

a bar of chocolate . You know , personally , personally , I think

21:45

we do . Yeah .

21:47

I agree Absolutely . I mean it's interesting

21:49

.

21:49

Delicious , delicious chocolate .

21:51

Yeah , I mean , we're going

21:53

through a brand re-strategization

21:55

at the moment and we've

21:58

brought in an external person to help us with

22:00

that , because we can't do it ourselves

22:02

. I think , and I think it's intrinsic

22:05

in the profession that we've sort of been uh

22:08

like I don't know , tamped

22:10

out , or you know , we've

22:12

been not necessarily told not

22:15

to put yourselves out there , but it is

22:17

, and I spoke to this in the first episode

22:19

of this season . It's the tall poppy syndrome of new

22:21

zealand . You know , don't stand too high , you'll get cut down

22:23

. But I think we should all be pushing

22:25

ourselves up , you know , and

22:28

there is no reason why we can't market

22:30

ourselves like anybody anyone else

22:32

does well , we're running businesses

22:34

, service-based businesses , at the end

22:37

of the day .

22:38

So I mean , look at , look at any other industry

22:40

all they do is they spend so

22:42

much time , effort and money

22:44

on marketing everything . Everything is marketing awareness

22:47

. It's

22:50

crazy that any kind of firm out there wouldn't

22:52

do the same .

22:53

Do you think it's a fear of the code of ethics

22:55

? Lisa , that's something that I've always

22:57

returned to , and I kind of feel like that

22:59

may be one of the causes .

23:02

I hadn't thought about that actually .

23:04

Yeah , not being allowed to sell yourself

23:06

, not being able to sell a service that you can't deliver

23:08

, or something there's like no , but that's

23:11

you know your own competency so

23:13

yeah you're selling , selling what you're competently

23:16

able to achieve

23:18

, I know , but I think the code of ethics is ambiguous

23:21

enough that it freaks people

23:23

out because they wonder where the line

23:25

is if you know what I mean ?

23:28

I emailed .

23:28

That's crazy years ago

23:30

I'm thinking back to a lecture that miles warren

23:32

gave when I was at architecture school

23:34

and and someone asked a question that

23:37

puts my asian context . But

23:39

he asked a question , um , at the end of it , oh

23:42

you , how did you grow your business ? You know

23:44

, Sir Miles ? And he went oh

23:46

, you know , just , you know , it

23:48

grew organically . I did my auntie's

23:50

garage and it grew from there . And my friend

23:52

, who'd come from the Otago Council

23:55

as a water engineer , leaned over and he said are you kidding

23:58

me ? When their book came out , the

24:00

first thing it did landed on the desks of every

24:02

you know engineer working for a council

24:04

in New Zealand on

24:07

the desks of every you know engineer working for a council in new zealand as manifesto . Yeah

24:09

, there's this sort of gentility over the top of it

24:12

, or that we don't want to be hilarious something

24:15

like that and I talked to a friend a friend

24:17

and a client who's a branding expert and he

24:20

he had a crack at the nz day about 10

24:22

years ago , I think , talking to

24:24

them about communicating value , because he was

24:26

showing me at the time there was an advertising campaign

24:29

in Home Magazine and he was like going Lisa

24:31

, you're preaching to the converted , it's a waste

24:33

of time and money and it was a really

24:35

wishy-washy campaign as well . So

24:37

he was kind of trying to argue that they should be communicating

24:40

value and

24:42

of course they thought that that was grubby

24:44

. So these are the shoes they were up against

24:46

. And then I think you know , like we are

24:48

collective but

24:51

we are in competition with each other , and so I think a lot of

24:53

architects , you know , I think a lot of architects

24:55

, I

24:59

think we , I think I personally think we would be stronger together . And I see that

25:01

in the SPG thing , Like , since we started the SPGs

25:04

it's , you know , it's

25:07

really great to have people that you can rely on . I

25:11

mean , the other issue is that we're a wide church , so

25:13

there's a lot of diverse voices , and it

25:15

has been explained to me that one of the

25:18

reasons the NZAA don't say

25:20

very much is for fear of annoying

25:23

somebody . So if you say , you

25:26

know , do something about

25:28

climate change , someone else is going to go . Why are you

25:30

saying that ?

25:30

I don't know , but that's so tame and

25:32

I think that sort of for me

25:34

that sort of response is

25:37

from someone or from an entity that

25:39

is large , basically , and they don't

25:41

need the NZIA to support them , they don't need

25:43

that kind of .

25:46

No , but that's the NZIA's position . Yeah

25:48

, because it's a member-driven society , right

25:50

? You don't want to be sort

25:52

of annoying a lot of your members . But

25:54

I also feel like the biggest voices

25:57

.

25:58

Yeah but , I , also feel like the biggest entities in the

26:00

room are going to be the ones that will control that narrative

26:02

, because they don't necessarily need them . Then

26:04

they'll be like well , you guys just keep doing what you

26:06

do because it's fine by us , Whereas

26:08

our smaller entities are like actually , we really

26:11

need you guys to help uplift us , promote

26:13

us a bit better .

26:14

So you've hit the nail on the head right . My

26:16

other reason is that we're all too

26:19

bloody busy trying to run like

26:21

this . Being an architect

26:24

, being responsible for everything that I

26:26

do , like the like , the multitude of

26:28

things I think about and do in one day like

26:30

it's hard . It's hard work . Being an architect

26:33

and running a practice is hard work , like having

26:35

the headspace to think about

26:37

any of this stuff just

26:40

so hard . So you know , when I try and engage

26:42

people about it , the response is just

26:44

not it's

26:46

positive but it's . You know emails to

26:48

me saying hey , you've raised some great

26:51

points , good luck .

26:53

Yeah Well , that's

26:55

why we're happy to have you here , because we can kind of

26:57

try and get this out a little bit more , get some momentum

26:59

behind it .

27:01

Here's a question for you guys . Did you vote in the special general meeting

27:03

on Wednesday ? I did not . Here's a question for you guys . Did you vote in the special general meeting on

27:05

Wednesday ?

27:06

I did not this , the NZIA Mm-hmm

27:09

. I

27:13

stopped paying for NZIA a few years ago .

27:15

This is one of the other things that's driven me into

27:17

frenzy of activity

27:20

. Yeah , yeah

27:22

. So we had the opportunity to address

27:25

the structure of the nza and to

27:27

think about governance , and smaller

27:29

practices were not heard in . That I don't think

27:31

. Well , didn't show up . Should I put it

27:33

that way ? Yeah , to be fair

27:35

I don't know that , but

27:37

I embarrassingly you're

27:40

sort of saying , hey guys , why don't you pay attention

27:43

?

27:43

well , totally , and that's a fair comment . But

27:45

back to your point before , interestingly

27:48

, I didn't vote , but also I consciously

27:50

didn't vote because I didn't have the time . You know , I

27:52

didn't really have the time to put

27:55

everything else aside and to focus

27:57

on this other thing which , ultimately

27:59

, I'm like it's important , probably for me to

28:01

have my voice , but at the end of the day , like

28:03

, is it going to be heard ? Probably not . What's

28:05

the point ?

28:06

well , it literally was , so it will be heard

28:08

. I mean , it's like

28:10

exactly the same if I hadn't put my

28:12

head up over the parapet , like I saw those emails

28:15

coming in saying oh , we're going on a road show

28:17

, we're talking about the constitution I thought good

28:19

god , like I need to focus on that . Like a hole

28:21

in the head , um . So I completely

28:23

ignored it , and I'm the first one to

28:25

say that if I hadn't gotten

28:28

engaged literally in the last four weeks

28:31

, I would not have shown up for that vote

28:33

. And it's not that complicated

28:35

. There's a few documents to read on the website

28:38

. We do need to address it legislatively

28:40

. We need to lodge a constitution

28:43

next year , and

28:45

it's our choice . Do we want to

28:48

take the advice of the people that we you know

28:50

our fees have paid money to to

28:52

give us advice ? Do we want a board

28:54

that you know that acts in our own best interest

28:56

? So if we sat here talking about you

28:58

know what we can do around

29:01

. You know better decision-making .

29:02

Well , maybe that's you know , something that we

29:05

all do need to engage in we

29:07

are sort of victims of our own um

29:10

inaction sometimes , and I think

29:12

that obviously speaks to your point now

29:15

. But it's also , you know , the marketing

29:17

point of view , the self-promotion point

29:19

of view , the industry promotion point of view , like

29:21

a lot of the time we are

29:23

waiting for somebody else to solve the problem

29:26

for us and we're not really willing to do it ourselves

29:28

. And that's why it's

29:30

good to have someone like yourself

29:32

put your hand up and be like oh

29:34

, come on , guys , let's , let's actually do something

29:36

about this . And it does stimulate chatter

29:39

. And you know , from your

29:41

email , like you said , it's gone to , went

29:43

to sam zondag and therefore

29:46

went to gerard , and now it's come to this . You

29:48

know um forum

29:50

and I've passed it on to a lot of people and

29:52

you know that's the snowball that starts

29:55

to gather momentum , so hopefully it

29:57

continues to do so .

29:58

I actually wonder , talking to

30:00

people where the part of the problem is comes

30:03

down to the sort of inherent

30:05

hierarchies . And now in our profession

30:07

I don't know what it was like for you guys

30:09

, but when I went to architecture school , there was a very

30:11

clear hierarchies communicated

30:14

to us in terms of design

30:16

versus anything practical . So

30:18

it didn't matter if marketing , detailing

30:20

, waterproofing

30:23

, buildings , those things were

30:25

not nearly as important as designing . And

30:27

then there was obviously kind of hierarchical structures

30:30

in that around who

30:32

the what do they call them star architects were

30:34

. And I just wonder whether a lot of us

30:36

who pay fees to the NZIA don't

30:39

actually feel like we belong to the club

30:41

. You know , like

30:43

maybe it's a club that we pay for but we don't

30:45

belong to , to or don't feel

30:47

like we have the right to belong , and I think

30:49

that's one of the things that that award

30:52

gives me is the right to say well , you

30:54

know , gary thought I belonged

30:56

. Okay , what's the kind of gave me the

30:58

medal , you know , so I don't . Maybe I

31:00

just I've dropped that . Um

31:02

, you know that

31:04

that sort of fear that I didn't

31:06

belong or whatever , that insecurity or that

31:09

inferiority , complex or whatever .

31:11

I agree very much with what you just

31:13

said , lisa , and

31:16

we unfortunately won a local award

31:18

last year and that validation

31:20

from the NZIA does

31:22

make you feel like you can sort of be a bit

31:24

more outspoken . But there's so

31:26

many of us that either like

31:28

even yourself , gerard , that you know either don't

31:30

engage with the NZIA or don't

31:32

engage with the awards programs , or

31:35

you know we're working isolated a

31:37

solo . There's so many soul practitioners out there

31:39

, or one or two people bands , that

31:42

you know their voices also need to

31:44

be heard in some capacity and I think

31:46

, yeah , you're right , that hierarchical fear

31:48

maybe of of speaking out is

31:51

is a real problem what

31:53

I think happen if we don't , if

31:55

the small practices don't sort of claim

31:58

our voice .

31:59

We will be overtaken by the large practices

32:01

. We're not overtaken , but they're

32:03

the ones with the resources and

32:05

the mana and the position and

32:08

the drive to

32:12

have a voice . If we don't stand up

32:14

and fight for it , we won't

32:16

. The voice of Sam talking

32:18

about how she needs to write a booklet to explain

32:21

to her clients , with a $400,000 budget

32:24

, why they should pay a little bit extra for her they're

32:27

not going to be hurt .

32:29

Is it a marketing issue , though ? Could

32:32

the issue be solved with marketing versus

32:35

going via the NZIA ? Independent

32:37

marketing yeah , independent marketing . I

32:40

used to think you weren't allowed to market

32:42

at all , but I saw um waramani

32:44

having , uh , phantom billboard posters

32:47

all around wellington , and I

32:49

did some mock-ups of my own

32:52

sort of phantom billboard posters a few years

32:54

ago , and then I never followed through with it . Cool

32:56

, bring them back , but something

32:58

like that is a way of phantom billboards

33:00

. Aren't that expensive ? Like , for 500 bucks

33:02

, you can get quite a few billboards around town for

33:05

a week or so . That's

33:10

the bottom end of the .

33:11

That's my list of ideas .

33:13

Thanks , Gerard . We're all going to have a big billboard

33:15

at the Wazoo now .

33:17

I think it's something worth considering

33:20

, because how else do you

33:22

get your name out there Instagram , like you

33:24

say , people scroll past

33:26

pictures so quickly now and if

33:28

you don't have a really nice , succinct , beautifully

33:32

crafted video which creates

33:34

a story , like at least , I really do like that

33:37

NZIA video . I watched your

33:39

one and that's like a perfect

33:41

little video . It's like a minute and a half or

33:43

something .

33:44

Simon Wilson .

33:45

Yeah , it kind of captured who you are as a

33:47

person . So then there's like this likability

33:50

of you as a person . So then like

33:52

that's a big thing , I think , for any human engagement

33:54

. So something like that is such a

33:56

powerful communication tool I

33:58

talked about the jury service .

34:00

Before you get , you jump into a car with

34:02

a bunch of like maybe four , three or four other architects

34:04

and you're reminded you've never met and you're reminded

34:07

you know what a smart , funny , interesting bunch

34:09

of people we are . You're not communicating

34:11

that at all except

34:13

to other architects .

34:15

Now , we're really good at that .

34:18

Think about our work . We're too busy talking

34:20

to each other . We're not talking to people

34:23

that we should be talking to that's

34:25

the thing they're interested in that

34:27

, that's so it's .

34:28

The interesting thing is for me , like nziak

34:31

institute of architects I only

34:33

use it for like a

34:35

, you know . Okay , there's like network events

34:37

, let's . Let's talk about what nzi

34:40

does right brings architects together

34:42

, probably brings a few other interested parties

34:44

, but predominantly architects , and

34:47

then , you know , there's a lot of social gatherings

34:49

and that sort of thing . There's education

34:51

, so tutorials and that sort of thing , but

34:53

I never even really saw

34:56

the nzia as the

34:58

people that should be selling the profession

35:00

to other than like the awards

35:03

ceremony which is , in a weird way

35:05

, only selling to architects . Once again

35:07

, yeah , you don't even see

35:09

it as a profession that's meant to be selling

35:12

architecture to non-architects

35:15

, I guess to the general public . Or

35:18

is that just me , you know , because

35:20

I am in the industry , and that's just how

35:23

I feel it .

35:24

I'm not sure I think you

35:26

won't have haven't seen that , ben , because

35:28

they don't do it , and I think , to

35:31

sum it , to sum it up basically , but

35:33

also I think I think they hit . They certainly

35:35

have a role to play , but I think we

35:37

all have a role to play as well . And this goes back

35:39

to gerard's point on marketing , like we

35:42

also need to market ourselves better and

35:44

I think us as small practices

35:46

, which all of us are , we

35:49

can do so much . But I also think

35:51

something we haven't touched on is there's bigger

35:53

practices in the country as well . There's huge

35:55

entities that have a huge amount of sway

35:58

in the built environment that I also

36:00

don't think , that a

36:03

lot of the time is self-satisfying and aren't

36:05

necessarily looking to uplift their profession

36:07

as a whole . I'm sure

36:09

about that , you don't reckon .

36:11

No , well , I'm not convinced about that

36:13

. No , I mean one of the most thoughtful responses

36:16

I had to my . So before

36:18

I wrote the bulletin , I just basically thought of every

36:20

architect I could think of , wrote

36:22

a letter to them and said you know , give me some feedback

36:25

. Yeah , yeah , the most thoughtful responses

36:27

I got was from John Coop , who's the managing

36:29

director of Warren Armani , and

36:32

I thought that his approach was totally

36:35

. You know , he

36:37

was . I mean , it seems I don't know this for sure

36:40

, but looking from a distance it looks a lot like he

36:42

did a lot of very smart things to lift up

36:44

the , you know , up the practice of Warren

36:46

Arnie and he is offering that sort of perspective

36:48

to the profession .

36:51

I mean I'm happy to be put in

36:54

my place in that statement , which is

36:56

good to hear .

36:57

I mean again , we're not talking enough with each other

36:59

, right ? I had no interest at all with John

37:01

, but I haven't spoken to him for years . What

37:03

did he say ? We

37:09

are seen as generators of risk , not problem solvers , strategists or

37:12

governors . So his argument

37:14

is that every business with a campus should

37:16

have an architect on its board , but

37:19

none of them do so . He's a director

37:21

on a board , but he's the only one I've

37:23

ever heard of Right . Director

37:27

of a on a board , but he's the only one I've ever heard of right . So engineers , lawyers , accountants

37:29

take on directorships , but architects don't . And

37:31

at the point that he's making as well , putting

37:33

pictures of batches on instagram is not

37:35

going to give us any power in the world . We

37:38

need you know we need if we want

37:40

change from his perspective , which

37:42

is obviously a lot more business savvy than mine , so

37:44

we need to be

37:46

in positions of power .

37:48

Kirsten Thompson touched on this expertly

37:51

in her cold metal lecture last

37:54

year or Fortuna series lecture last year , and

37:56

spoke to the role of the architect

37:58

and architectural advocacy in Australia and

38:01

how much not necessarily power

38:03

, no power , I guess that they

38:05

do have , and how their

38:08

opinions are respected

38:10

. I think that is . Another issue

38:12

that we have is that you're

38:14

right , there aren't architects

38:16

in any positions of decision-making

38:19

. We don't have a government architect

38:21

or we don't necessarily have architects

38:23

on urban panel review

38:26

boards , boards or just like to your point

38:28

, and you know those sort of facilities

38:30

where you need design

38:32

input , professional design input , not

38:35

necessarily someone who's looking at it from a

38:37

financial or a structural or infrastructural

38:40

lens . You know and I don't know how , I

38:42

don't know how you change that , but yeah

38:44

, I mean if anybody wants to look for it .

38:46

We get to face that to our responsibility

38:48

. Like I think it's our fault and

38:50

, honestly , like I think I tried to communicate

38:52

, I do think it's an existential issue .

38:54

Yeah .

38:55

You look at what's happening out there , you know in

38:57

the last 10 years I've been practicing , the prices

38:59

go up every year . You know like it's harder

39:01

. The

39:08

first house . I did three bedroom house

39:10

in avondale for 97 000 . Well done , yeah , like either . So that

39:12

was a moment , um . You know like it's so

39:15

much harder to practice and where are we going

39:17

to end up . You know what's the logical

39:19

conclusion of where we're going ? Fewer and

39:21

fewer architects doing houses

39:23

for people who are making money without

39:26

us , while

39:29

we wait patiently , like lapdogs , waiting for them to

39:31

come to us with their dirty money .

39:33

Please call me .

39:34

We've been involved in making Pick me and

39:37

then spend it on really expensive details

39:39

. Is

39:41

that what we want as a profession , or do

39:43

we want to pull together collectively and

39:46

fight for something more for a seat

39:48

at the table ?

39:51

I liked your note in there

39:53

increasing obsolescence

39:55

, and I kind of wonder has

39:57

that been happening for a long time ? I

39:59

feel like when you're studying

40:02

for your registration or something , often

40:04

it's risk aversion

40:06

. The right answer in your case , study

40:08

exam , is always avoid risk . But

40:11

I feel like that's all-encompassing and

40:13

it's covered everything . And so

40:15

when no longer

40:17

urban designers or you remove

40:19

yourself from the puzzle and bring in

40:22

a consultant or something , you're

40:24

no longer the planner , your

40:26

own planner . So it's like a fragmentation

40:28

of your job and

40:31

I feel like that's not overly

40:33

helpful . I remember a lecture by

40:35

Joseph Rasmus Prince of

40:37

Rex Architects talking about agency

40:39

and architects consistently

40:43

trying to avoid risk and then wondering

40:45

why they're being left out of all

40:47

the decision making and why the why the

40:49

contractor has all the power . So

40:52

it's like how is the

40:54

solution ? To be more

40:57

in the room , ultimately to

40:59

take on more risk ?

41:00

I mean developers .

41:01

Take all the risk and and they have

41:03

a seat at the table , I guess , as as a result .

41:05

Yeah , I think you make a very valid point , gerard

41:07

and I think we as a profession are terrified

41:10

of liability , but

41:13

we are highly

41:16

trained , we're good at what we do , we know

41:18

we're good at what we do , we

41:22

have exorbitant amounts on insurance

41:24

to cover our backs if we do make a mistake , but

41:27

we never , ever , put any of it into play

41:29

. You know , and I think you're right

41:31

, I think it is it's been a growing

41:34

obsolescence , because of fear

41:36

, in my

41:38

opinion . But then again , anytime you try and

41:40

break out of that mold or

41:43

that established mold of today

41:45

, you're often pulled

41:47

back down , told to rein your

41:49

head in , cut down by council

41:51

, maybe , you know , cut down by a compliance

41:53

pathway or things like that , and

41:55

so you just sort of you often

41:57

, and again this goes back to the point of

41:59

how busy we are you take an easier

42:01

route because you don't

42:04

have the time or sometimes the energy

42:06

to solve the problem .

42:07

Yeah , I

42:09

mean I've certainly had lots of conversations

42:11

around risk and the effect that it's had on the industry

42:14

, but not in the last kind of five or so years

42:16

. I mean there was a

42:18

time , especially amongst female architects , there

42:20

was a lot of discussion around risk , like I'm not

42:22

sure that that's the biggest

42:24

problem we face . I

42:27

think it's more about value

42:29

, like maybe valuing ourselves and

42:33

communicating our value better and

42:35

just being a little bit less focused on the product

42:37

, a little bit more on the service . But

42:41

yeah , I think you know the NZAA is there

42:43

to you know . Well , it's what

42:45

we've got right . It's our industry body , so

42:48

it's going to do what we ask it to

42:50

do Like . So there's a strategic plan

42:52

from 2024 . And

42:55

if you look at it , there's lots of nice

42:57

words about support , public education and awareness

43:00

campaign on the value of architects , registration

43:02

and professional standards , deliver campaigns

43:04

to highlight the value and contribution of members

43:06

, work to Aotearoa , new Zealand , community communities

43:09

and environment . Well , that was quarter

43:12

one , two and three of last year . That

43:14

was the action plan . So I

43:16

mean we need to do more than you know

43:18

, write action plans . Yeah we

43:20

need to act . Also that's been a great thing

43:22

is that you know like people are communicating , like

43:24

if we want the NZIA to help

43:26

us with this , then we do need to communicate

43:28

it to them , because they

43:30

are sort of , you know , in

43:34

the process of trying to understand how to grapple with all this stuff as well . So

43:36

one of the biggest issues is advocacy . So

43:38

again , a dirty word . But do

43:40

we want lobbyists ? And down in wellington

43:42

, and my , my argument is we absolutely

43:45

do . You know we were completely sideswiped

43:47

. What happened with the change of government ? You

43:50

know we were hit pretty hard

43:52

as a profession and I think the

43:55

things that the current government doesn't

43:57

really understand , or is probably about

43:59

to , is that with all the architects out

44:01

of work in the next three months to a

44:03

year , there are going to be fewer and fewer contractors

44:06

in work , so that is going to have a palpable

44:08

effect on their poll ratings and their ability

44:10

to get re-elected and you you

44:13

don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out

44:15

.

44:17

No , not at all .

44:18

You know we're not being heard . Do you know what I mean

44:21

? And also , the other thing

44:23

is , I'm just going to talk

44:25

to you about some of this stuff . It's actually really important . Like

44:27

you know , that thing about the protection

44:29

for the term architect that's not off

44:31

the table , is that the protection for the term architect that's not off the table ? Is it still

44:33

being floated ? It's still out there

44:36

in the world , it hasn't been squashed . So when

44:38

you say , oh , you know we don't have time to think

44:40

about this , you know , special general meeting and all

44:42

this , it's like these are the issues at play

44:45

. Like it's not enough . Do you know what I mean

44:47

? Imagine

44:55

if they took that away from us . The government , you know , fighting , cutting

44:57

regulation at every corner . Have regard for architects . Like I do think , unfortunately , with all the

44:59

other stuff going on that we are so stressed and worried and thinking

45:01

about , we do have to pay a bit of attention to

45:03

this stuff .

45:04

The protection of the term architect , I think

45:06

, is a particularly important one . One thing that frustrates

45:09

me in new zealand in particular and

45:11

you see the adverse internationally

45:13

is that I don't like

45:15

to say this , but we are not

45:18

needed . Necessarily

45:20

we should be , but

45:23

ultimately you can build in

45:25

new zealand code

45:28

compliant buildings

45:30

without the need of an architect , and that

45:32

is to me .

45:34

I think that's a problem , because you end

45:36

up with a incredibly basic

45:39

, unimaginative average built environment

45:41

you ask the people in your neighborhood do

45:44

you want your child going to school in a prefab

45:46

or do you want them going to school in an architecturally

45:48

designed building ? An easy question , right

45:50

?

45:51

it's not a difficult question an easy question , but

45:53

I think that's the problem is that our

45:56

position's not held in a high enough regard , that

45:58

we are the be-all and

46:01

end-all from a design perspective , and I think we

46:03

should be , because we're trained to be

46:05

, but there's so many other little

46:07

side professions

46:09

that can still impact the built

46:11

environment without the need of us , and I think

46:13

that's for me that's a key issue

46:16

. Um , and even to the point of consenting I know

46:18

this has been talked about in the past and everything

46:20

but like this

46:22

could be a mechanism for us to , and

46:25

there's risk involved in this . But you know , like

46:27

self-review , you

46:29

know engineers do it through the peer review system

46:31

like why , why couldn't we ? And

46:34

that's that kind of like puts us our

46:36

standing on a higher regard I'll tell you one

46:38

thing that would be useful .

46:39

A lot of architects see planners as as

46:41

a block , and you know I I

46:44

see them as if architects and planners worked

46:46

to get together for the betterment

46:48

of our communities , we would be stronger come

46:50

. The company that I worked for in london had a

46:53

thriving practice based on

46:55

a reputation for getting things through

46:57

planning . Planning is difficult

46:59

to achieve in london . You have to do a good job you

47:01

have a nice you know building

47:03

that's going to last the distance , to get planning . So

47:06

you know , like a lot of , there's a lot of these

47:08

kind of hierarchies in play that are just

47:10

not working that well for us , or

47:12

dichotomies going back

47:14

to that , you know , would you prefer an architecturally

47:17

designed building question ?

47:19

one thing that we've commonly talked about

47:21

on this podcast is I just

47:23

I don't actually believe their

47:25

answer is as clear as black

47:28

and white as you think it is . I think that there's

47:30

so many people with not

47:32

you know , like I would say , bad taste , but

47:35

or let's just say , like not our

47:37

kind of , or not with a similar

47:39

kind of taste or aesthetic as

47:42

us , that they're quite happy just

47:44

living in some of those more

47:46

cookie cutter type apologies

47:48

, or that sort of thing . So I think , yeah

47:50

, I think like there's definitely , and that may

47:53

be because there's just not enough architecturally

47:55

designed houses out there to compare

47:57

to . So maybe , like it's

48:00

just , we've just gone a full circle and it

48:02

comes back to awareness

48:04

of actually , well , what is well

48:07

designed versus what isn't and

48:09

people being able to actually differentiate

48:12

, because , yeah , I'm just not convinced

48:14

that everyone

48:16

wants to live in an architecturally designed

48:18

house at this point in time .

48:20

I'm not saying that everything needs to be bespoke

48:22

. I just think that our role , as let's

48:25

call it like chief overseer

48:27

of the built environment , should

48:29

be more prominent

48:32

. And you can still

48:34

deliver those cookie-cutter

48:36

solutions , but we're

48:38

still the head of the snake .

48:41

Where I'm at is that you know , don't whinge

48:43

about things we can't control . Focus on

48:45

what we can control . Good point .

48:47

But you know what I mean .

48:48

Yeah , yeah , we can't do anything about

48:50

. Like a friend of mine from Europe was complaining

48:53

20 years ago that New Zealanders aren't taught

48:55

visual appreciation

48:58

, all the stuff that she learned through her osmosis

49:00

in Portugal or whatever we don't have

49:02

it . We can talk about all that stuff

49:04

, but we're not going to be able to solve that problem

49:07

. Yeah , very very

49:09

, and I honestly think like yeah , it's

49:11

very tempting to blame a whole lot of other stuff

49:13

, but I honestly think we have to start looking at ourselves

49:16

. You know , what can we do ?

49:20

What can we do better ?

49:35

You know seeing ourselves as a group of people and seeing worth and communicating

49:37

that value is something that we can do , something that we can ask our profession as a body to do , know as a body to do , yeah

49:40

, and kind of doing practices . Yeah , it kind of comes full circle all the way back to how we started about advocacy

49:42

and marketing and getting getting the word out

49:44

there , kind of reminded

49:47

of like how um vocal

49:49

like frank lloyd wright was back

49:51

in the day . He'd be on tv every

49:53

chance he'd get and extremely

49:55

opinionated and talking about

49:57

utopian architecture and yeah

50:00

ebjorn said you could always

50:02

rely on ath .

50:03

You know , give a pithy quote , it would be

50:05

generous to other architects , it wouldn't be specific

50:08

about him and that's one of the things

50:10

on the list of you know , if we want to sort of turn to

50:12

things , we can do . That was one of the things on the list of you know , if

50:14

we want to sort of turn to things , we can do , that was one of the things on the list . Is that ? Okay

50:16

, we all have different ideas . Well , maybe

50:18

the new communication guy at the NZIA

50:21

, maybe he could develop or we could send

50:23

him in you know , a sort of a spreadsheet

50:25

of people who you know . Well , you know

50:27

my name's Lisa Webb and I'm interested and capable

50:29

on talking on these . You know three issues

50:31

here we all are and

50:33

capable in talking on these . You know

50:35

three issues here we all are . But you know he doesn't

50:37

, he's only just started , he doesn't know anything about us or who

50:40

we should go to and we're probably not

50:42

going to tell him . You know there could be a list

50:44

. You know we could just say , okay

50:46

, we all have different ideas , but you

50:48

know , let's make a list of people that could . So

50:50

at least you have something out there

50:52

rather than nothing Like . Make a list of people that could . So at least you

50:54

have something out there rather than nothing Like . That is something that we could . You

50:56

know that we could be better at . We could get quotes

50:59

from architects . I don't know if anyone reads the paper anymore

51:01

, but you know we could get quotes from architects

51:03

in the paper and we could get more

51:05

publicity .

51:06

Testimonials yeah , Just sounds

51:08

like positive easy marketing

51:10

to me . Yeah .

51:12

And the airtime thing . Airtime thing's really

51:14

interesting , lisa , and way back start

51:17

of the pod you talked about when you , when your

51:20

house , won , um , the nza nathfield

51:22

award for housing , like that in the video

51:25

, and you're still reaping the benefits

51:27

of the video , like , I think , airtime

51:29

, visual , airtime of architects

51:31

be , be that opinion , be that projects , be

51:33

that stories , be that narrative

51:35

. I think that

51:38

is an easy mechanism for

51:40

us to better get our skills

51:42

, our profession , across to the wider

51:45

public .

51:45

Yeah , the other one . I did

51:47

a project for some

51:50

people I knew in the neighborhood and have become my friends

51:53

Louise McGill and Gordon Harcourt

51:55

. Gordon used to be the presenter on Fair Goat

51:57

.

51:58

I've seen that one as well . I saw that video .

52:03

Yeah , there were parts of that project where he was white-knuckling

52:05

, you know , because he'd seen all

52:08

the bad stories firsthand

52:10

. You know he had the bloody noses to sort of prove it

52:12

. But at the end of , yeah

52:14

, he presented to the contractor

52:16

and I that video that he'd made . You

52:19

know , it's an incredibly generous thing to do and I was talking

52:21

to him about it on the weekend and you know he's

52:23

up for telling stories

52:25

about , you know , contributing his

52:28

voice to what architects can

52:30

do . And I talked to Mark Abbott

52:32

as well , the interim chief

52:34

executive . They're talking about going and

52:36

um with a videographer

52:38

taking snippets at the local awards

52:40

of clients . You know , like every

52:42

one of us would have clients saying nice

52:44

things about stuff , you know yeah

52:47

and those stories are

52:49

far more resonant to me than a

52:51

than I mean . This is again

52:53

, I don't want it to make it sound like I'm not

52:55

interested in design . Of

52:58

course I am , and I want things to be beautiful , and

53:01

that's what I'm trying to say is they don't have to be one

53:03

or the other .

53:03

Yeah , it's the same thing .

53:05

Yeah .

53:06

Architecture shared and for people .

53:08

It's more complex than you see in a picture

53:10

.

53:11

Yeah , People are infinitely more

53:13

important , I think in the story .

53:15

Well , that's a key point , Gerard , and

53:17

this is where the narrative becomes

53:19

so important . You know , it's lovely

53:21

to watch a local project video , but

53:24

it's very tailored , it's very

53:26

clean . There's not necessarily

53:29

a lot of reality to it , and

53:33

I think we're the real success in terms of not necessarily selling the

53:35

product , as in the final building

53:37

, but the actual profession

53:39

, what we do as architects and what the result

53:42

of what we do is , is that

53:44

story . It's the real people's

53:46

responses , it's the client's joy at the

53:48

end of it . It's the way that , like you

53:50

said , you transform that teacher's life

53:53

in the way that they interact with their school . I

53:55

mean , that's the real key , I think , in

53:57

terms of trying to sell what we do . They're

54:00

really beautiful stories as well .

54:03

Blind and Tears the other day . I feel

54:05

you know you're listening to me . I feel that

54:07

, yeah , these are nice

54:09

things to have out there in the world .

54:11

I had that the other day in a concept design meeting

54:13

and it sort of took me aback . I was like , oh

54:16

, I'm glad that I've

54:18

done the right thing , but I don't really know what

54:20

to say .

54:22

But again , that's another skill that good

54:25

architects have is the ability to listen

54:27

and hear what people are saying and interpret in

54:29

a way that they weren't expecting . That's exactly

54:31

what we bring to the table . There's

54:33

another really good idea I had from a guy called

54:36

Ren Zhijian , whose

54:38

I think his practice is called Percept Studio

54:41

. So

54:43

I'd not heard , I hadn't heard from him before and probably the NZIA had data , but

54:45

he had a really great idea , I thought , and

54:47

that's a video that describes

54:49

the process . So he was

54:51

saying when he has clients and they want

54:53

to know how building works

54:55

, he sends them to these YouTube videos that

54:57

builders have made , which I

55:00

lasted about five minutes . Was

55:02

I okay Enough with the wheelbarrow ? But you

55:06

know , like that's a really that's actually a really

55:08

good idea and goes to that point we were

55:10

talking about before around Sam's conundrum

55:12

. You know a good way to explain

55:15

to people and you know when you start

55:17

, especially when you're starting out and a lot of people haven't

55:19

used your clients , haven't used an architect before

55:21

and there's a lot of anxiety and all that . You know

55:23

you can explain , you know how the process

55:25

works and maybe communicate why

55:27

you know it's worth an architect there to help you if you're

55:29

an architect there to help you . You know

55:31

like , even at my you

55:34

know like , because I've sort of seen it all like

55:38

when you're starting out it's so hard to communicate your value and then you get

55:41

, you know , you win an award and all of a sudden people start going , oh , maybe she doesn't

55:43

know what she's talking about , and it becomes

55:45

easier , right , but

55:47

you still have to deal with , you

55:50

know , these preconceptions , like . You

55:57

know , oh , we'll get a QS to manage the money because architects

55:59

can't deal with money which infuriates me because I'm

56:01

very particular about money and a sort of obsessive

56:03

controller of trade summary

56:05

sheets and all that sort of stuff . So

56:07

we're still fighting our corner on all

56:09

that stuff and those kinds of preconceptions

56:12

that we don't know anything about . Money is one of

56:14

the things that really drives me out the wall

56:16

and I'd really like not to get holed up

56:18

at a party again about that .

56:20

I think that's one of them , but there's many preconceptions

56:23

about us which need to be debunked or at

56:25

least explained .

56:26

This is what we're not doing with the Instagram

56:28

picture strategy . So this is the problem

56:30

. Hopefully

56:32

, the NZA are talking about getting a PR

56:35

person on board as well , so

56:37

obviously we don't know how to do any

56:39

of this , so it's up to us . Yeah .

56:44

Okay , I think that's a great idea . Yeah , I

56:46

think that's… I liked your comment about you

56:48

know running it more as a business , for

56:50

sure .

56:51

Yeah , well , I think my friend the branding advisor

56:54

. He sort of basically says when we work with Whittaker's

56:56

, the argument is why would you pay more for a

56:58

bar of Whittaker's chocolate than a bar

57:00

of Cadbury's chocolate ? And I just , I

57:02

don't think architecture is that different , like you

57:05

know . Why would you pay for us ?

57:06

It's such a great analogy because I will

57:08

pay more for a Whittaker's chocolate bar every

57:10

time , yeah

57:13

, or for a Whittaker's chocolate bar every time . Yeah , market positioning it's quality

57:15

, and then it's the emotion that it gives you . I

57:20

feel so much more satisfied with good chocolate than I do with

57:22

gritty , over-sugared generic

57:25

chocolate .

57:26

I know we're getting late in the conversation but on

57:29

the Whittaker's chat , celebrity

57:31

endorsement might be one . There's

57:34

a very young New Zealand motocross

57:36

rider who's getting very big in the United States

57:39

at the moment who's a very big Whitaker's fan

57:41

and always talks about it in his post-race

57:43

interviews Nice , you

57:46

hear it in these podcasts people in America

57:48

trying to track down Whitaker's . That reminds

57:51

me of Richie McCaw's

57:53

Total Span video . Yeah

57:55

, yeah .

57:56

Yeah , see all of those guys do

57:58

it .

57:58

Should we get Richie McCaw to champion ? Yeah

58:01

?

58:02

No , somebody

58:04

design Richie House .

58:06

One of the comments that was made was around

58:09

a PR strategy that just would have relationships

58:12

with social media influences and

58:14

all that sort of stuff .

58:16

It's funny , though we sort of roll

58:18

our eyes a little bit at it , but it does have reach

58:20

, there's meat there . There

58:24

is meat there , and that is the world we

58:26

live in .

58:27

I've seen a video of somebody giving a

58:29

personal tour of a real beautiful

58:31

mid-century house in the States . Those videos are pretty

58:33

captivating . I'm just an absolute sucker for giving a personal tour of like a real beautiful mid-century house in the states and like . Those videos are pretty captivating

58:35

and I'm just an absolute sucker

58:38

for are you going back to ice ?

58:41

ice cube . I mean , ice cube's the biggest

58:43

advocate . Yeah , he's

58:45

who we need . But yeah , also the arcy

58:48

marathon guys who have had on the pod .

58:50

I'm like becoming more and more addicted

58:52

to watching their videos because just

58:54

love the storytelling and , once

58:56

again , and just the general

58:58

banter , I guess I think something that they

59:00

do well is they make it architecturally

59:05

nerdy enough that we

59:08

as professionals get

59:10

off on it , but they also

59:12

make it like jovial and sort

59:14

of awkward and like

59:16

common enough that regular

59:19

viewers will also really enjoy it yeah

59:21

, they describe it very well , they

59:24

do do

59:26

you have any closing thoughts lesser ?

59:27

I just I I feel I

59:30

feel like a reluctant cheerleader . I'm

59:34

somebody who's never really been involved

59:36

in anything sort of organized

59:38

in my life . I remember my mum saying

59:41

to me once when I was a kid you know , whenever you get a group

59:43

of people together and try and get a decision , it doesn't

59:45

matter if it's a PTA or a Bloomin'

59:47

Sunday School , you know committee or

59:50

I don't know the Board of Fletchers or whatever there's

59:54

always . You know difficulties , making

59:56

decisions and finding ways forward and , like

59:58

you know , basically why would you want that so

1:00:01

? But I sort of feel like

1:00:03

we have to get involved .

1:00:07

Yeah , I mean , we're happy to be here cheerleading

1:00:09

with you as well , so I hope you're not .

1:00:12

But there's going to be another vote coming up , I

1:00:14

hope , so we are going to have a president .

1:00:17

Call to action . Call to action .

1:00:19

Lisa does not want to be president .

1:00:23

But at least vote people , myself

1:00:25

included , yeah , yeah .

1:00:27

Educate what's involved . So like , for

1:00:29

example , you brought up the Australian model , they

1:00:31

have a board

1:00:33

structured with outside

1:00:35

board members . So they have adopted

1:00:38

the . As I understand it I

1:00:40

obviously don't know this for a fact , but as I understand

1:00:42

it they are structured in a way that we were trying

1:00:44

to structure ourselves . So

1:00:47

, you know , what

1:00:50

I hear from Mark Abbott is that obviously

1:00:53

the chief executive role is up , so

1:00:55

he's an interim chief executive . The

1:00:57

chief executive role is coming up and

1:00:59

, like , I'm interested in you

1:01:01

know who we're going to get and what skills are they

1:01:03

going to bring to the table , because it really does

1:01:06

need someone who's capable of navigating

1:01:08

all these sort of complex issues

1:01:10

. Um , and then the other one is I think there's a president-elect

1:01:13

coming up . Yeah

1:01:15

, yeah , everyone put their thumb on their forehead

1:01:17

or whatever it is to avoid that one . And

1:01:19

then the other one is the branch members . You

1:01:23

know , around New Zealand there are I

1:01:25

don't know the structure of it even , but you know

1:01:27

the branch members are coming up for re-voting

1:01:30

. But , again , if you want these

1:01:32

kinds of issues addressed , then communicate

1:01:34

that to your , to your , to your local board

1:01:36

rep yeah , or get involved yourselves

1:01:39

if you've somehow magicked up

1:01:41

some spare time I mean just sorry off

1:01:43

the podcast , but just as an aside , like we

1:01:45

do , like that is . One of the things is that we do have

1:01:47

to address the governance structure and

1:01:49

, like I don't know how many times , to say

1:01:51

to people like we really do need

1:01:53

to get engaged on that front and , like

1:01:55

I said all before the vote , how do we

1:01:58

get people interested in really boring stuff

1:02:00

like reading about governance structures , like

1:02:02

they've got a nice diagram on the website , like

1:02:04

all you have to do diagram it's

1:02:06

gonna make it easy as little amount of clicks

1:02:09

as possible , because I actually read that bulletin

1:02:11

and I thought to myself I really

1:02:13

should go on the website and

1:02:15

see what they're talking about yeah

1:02:17

well , we , we have an opportunity like we've got a choice

1:02:20

right . Either we have um , we

1:02:22

have a lot of representatives sitting

1:02:24

around the table more than the number

1:02:26

I understand has been advised leads

1:02:28

to a successful outcome . So if you get too

1:02:30

many people sitting around the table talking about stuff

1:02:32

, you're there six weeks later . Do you know what I'm ?

1:02:34

saying should be sending it all of that

1:02:36

stuff out in those bulletins , instead of saying

1:02:38

like , hey , we're going to meet about this , go to the website

1:02:41

, just get it in there , I

1:02:43

don't know where to read it if it was on in the news

1:02:45

.

1:02:45

But they've been emailing and we were ignoring

1:02:48

it like , literally , I saw them roadshed

1:02:50

really town like yeah whatever

1:02:52

, but I think that's the issue

1:02:54

with the bulletins as well .

1:02:55

I don't know about you guys , but they send them out on Friday

1:02:57

afternoon .

1:02:58

The last thing I want to do is open a bloody email

1:03:00

on a Friday afternoon . Yeah , that's right .

1:03:03

Send it to me on a Monday morning . It'll sit in

1:03:05

my , like . I'll be like that's interesting . I'll star

1:03:07

that email all week

1:03:09

looking at me and by Friday

1:03:11

afternoon . I'm so irritated looking at that email

1:03:13

. I will address it , but if you send

1:03:15

it to me on a Friday afternoon , I'll open it and I'll go

1:03:17

delete .

1:03:20

I'm leaving , sorry . Maybe we should change the time

1:03:22

Exactly . That's an easy

1:03:24

win and

1:03:27

some good ideas for the bulletin as well in terms of how we talk to each other

1:03:29

a bit more interesting , like show work on the boards

1:03:31

, that kind of stuff .

1:03:32

Yeah , I like that .

1:03:33

Yeah , I mean , the structures are really not great

1:03:36

. Like there was an email saying issue

1:03:38

come to the Auckland board meeting now

1:03:41

or whatever tomorrow night at this bar or whatever

1:03:43

. And I raced across town , I

1:03:46

told my husband to cook dinner and I got there and

1:03:48

it was a bunch of people standing around drinking free

1:03:51

drinks in a bar , like talking about nothing , and

1:03:54

they had bits of white paper on on the bar tables going oh , write an idea . And it was like , oh

1:03:56

, have a architectural walk around the city , or whatever

1:03:58

. I was like , oh my god , you know

1:04:01

, it's just like . That is not an effective

1:04:03

, that is not effective way to move forward

1:04:05

.

1:04:07

Don't put that in the podcast , though , because that's

1:04:09

too negative uplift , uplift

1:04:12

yeah , I did see one come

1:04:14

through the other day about a meet-up

1:04:16

at the Rimuru golf course and I was like

1:04:18

, oh yeah , ben's

1:04:20

here , but I would 100% just be going

1:04:22

to play golf .

1:04:25

Well , go Ben Talk to people

1:04:28

, yeah Do it . You

1:04:30

know , I just couldn't

1:04:32

imagine anything worse .

1:04:38

you know , I just couldn't imagine anything worse ?

1:04:39

uh , amazingly so .

1:04:40

Thank you very much for coming

1:04:42

on and thanks so much and um , we will continue all

1:04:44

to keep advocating for architecture

1:04:47

in new zealand and we'll keep pushing positivity

1:04:49

, the positive vibes .

1:04:50

I think we need to act collectively . That's what

1:04:52

I would say if we want to get

1:04:55

where we want to go . Thank you , awesome

1:04:57

, nice chatting , thank you .