0:05

Hello and welcome to another episode of Dice Explorer.

0:07

Each week we take a tabletop RPG mechanic and smash

0:09

it into the freaking moon. My name is Sam Donald

0:11

Wald and my co-host. This week is Aaron Voight. Yes,

0:13

Aaron is back. Last week we talked about Hart, the

0:16

city beneath, by Rowan Rook and Deckard, and today we

0:18

are returning for a second bite at the apple. If

0:20

you haven't listened to last week's episode, this is very

0:22

much a continuation of that conversation. But in case you

0:24

didn't listen to it, or if you want a refresher,

0:26

here's a reminder of where I'm at with this game.

0:29

Hart is a dungeon crawler, but not just any dungeon

0:31

crawler. It takes us through a vast dream-like dungeon-like dungeon-like

0:33

dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like

0:35

dungeon towards the heart-like dungeon-like dungeon-like

0:37

dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like

0:40

dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like

0:42

dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like dungeon-like

0:45

dungeon-like-like-like-like dungeon-like- Grant's wishes maybe, it's

0:47

a game with some of the most

0:49

creative and spicy, sideways logic fantasy ideas

0:51

in it that I've ever encountered. But

0:53

I have a complicated relationship with heart.

0:55

I love parts of it, like Zenith

0:57

abilities, which Aaron and I talked about

0:59

last week. Just like the game's flavor,

1:01

they are so juicy, so bombastic, and

1:03

so inspiring. But other parts of the

1:06

game don't click for me. And today we're

1:08

here to talk about some of those, through

1:10

the lens of one mechanic in particular. Beats.

1:12

Little narrative bits that a player wants

1:14

to see their character encounter, and if

1:17

they do, rewards them with a new

1:19

ability. I really should love this mechanic,

1:21

and for a while I did. But

1:23

for me, in practice, beats play out

1:26

like a leaky boat. There's little holes

1:28

in the subsystem everywhere, and ultimately, I'd

1:30

probably be better off just swimming on

1:33

my own. As I hope I should last week,

1:35

I think there's a ton to love about

1:37

heart. But I think this game is popular

1:39

enough that it can take a little criticism,

1:41

and I also think there's a lot of

1:43

value in examining what doesn't work in games

1:45

sometimes, especially in games that are so effective

1:47

in some ways, and lacklustre and others. Plus,

1:49

I think my real complaints here might be

1:51

as much about the trad play style at

1:53

large as this particular game. That said, I

1:55

knew when I was sitting down for this

1:57

I wanted to have some more more ardent

1:59

lover. of the game to do it

2:01

with me. And so I'm welcoming back

2:03

Aaron Voight. Aaron is a game designer,

2:06

but he's also one of just a

2:08

few people on YouTube regularly making video

2:10

essays about indie RPGs. He's got a

2:12

wide back catalog with essays on games

2:15

like Stupa and Triangle Agency and tons

2:17

of other games like the kind I

2:19

feature on Dice Explorer. So if you

2:21

like this show, you might just like

2:23

his work too. Before we get into

2:26

it, thanks to everyone who supports Dice

2:28

Explorer on Patreon on Patreon. Aaron

2:32

Voit, welcome back for round two here

2:34

in the arena. The Dice Exploding Arena.

2:36

Thank you for having me. I understand

2:39

this is where we're getting our knives

2:41

out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a

2:43

good movie. We are here once again

2:45

to talk about heart the city beneath.

2:47

We did a lot of setup and

2:49

talking about how much we love the

2:51

world of this in last week's episode

2:53

and I think we're going to skip

2:55

all of that just kind of assume

2:58

that you are binge listening to these

3:00

and get right back into talking about

3:02

this game mechanically. So we kind of

3:04

explained how beats work last time because

3:06

we had to do so to talk

3:08

about zenith abilities. But let's just... do

3:10

a refresher? What's going on with beats?

3:12

Right, so when you create your character,

3:15

you choose what's called a calling, which

3:17

is basically the reason why your character

3:19

is going into red wet hell, as

3:21

how it would call it, and tied

3:23

to those callings are what they call

3:25

beats. They're basically little narrative checkboxes that

3:27

both help you advance your character and

3:29

take, you know, special moves, but also

3:32

give you a... you know, mission to

3:34

fill out. For example, if we're using

3:36

the enlightenment calling, this is a calling

3:38

that's like, you're a person who is

3:40

driven to solve something impossible. Yeah. Why

3:42

does evil exist in the world? Or

3:44

like, how do I become a mortal

3:46

or something like that, right? Yeah, classic.

3:49

Why did my wife tie? Uh, so

3:51

if you've taken the enlightenment calling, one

3:53

of your beats might be put the

3:55

acquisition of knowledge above preserving the lives

3:57

of your ally. A major one might

3:59

be take major mind fallout and then

4:01

the zenith is find the secret final

4:03

secret you have so desperately sought and

4:06

use it to solve your impossible task.

4:08

It gives you that structure. It stems

4:10

from your background of being like I

4:12

want to learn something to being like

4:14

I'm going to put people in danger

4:16

because of that and then I'm going

4:18

to figure it out. I'm gonna do

4:20

it yippy. In any given session, you

4:23

as a character pick two beats that

4:25

are your like active beats. These are

4:27

the ones where like if they happen,

4:29

you get to check them and then

4:31

you get to take a minor major

4:33

or zenith ability based on having done

4:35

so. And I think that's just because,

4:37

you know, there's like a full page

4:40

of these things for every calling, like

4:42

30 of them or something, and having

4:44

all of them act. active at once

4:46

would feel really overwhelming I think and

4:48

so you pick two and that's a

4:50

signal to focus on this too right

4:52

like the way it's laid out in

4:54

the book as I remember it anyway

4:56

is it's a very explicit like DM

4:59

your job is to take the beats

5:01

that the players give you and find

5:03

ways to incorporate them into the story

5:05

to do prep around them like if

5:07

you take the beat defend a haven

5:09

from attack then the DM is supposed

5:11

to put the group at a haven

5:13

or like make a haven nearby and

5:16

then have some people attacking it and

5:18

when I started playing this felt like

5:20

it was going to be great because

5:22

as DM you have to prep right

5:24

like you do have to go and

5:26

figure out how you're going to do

5:28

that but also it gives you direction

5:30

for that prep right it becomes very

5:33

clear ideally what the players are pointing

5:35

you towards and my experience was that

5:37

It was really hard to do that

5:39

still that actually when I got eight

5:41

different beats from my four players at

5:43

the end of one session going into

5:45

another, then I felt really anxious when

5:47

I wasn't able to, when like it

5:50

was clear where the story was kind

5:52

of headed in my mind, but I

5:54

felt obligated to sort of like bring

5:56

in five other beats into that story.

5:58

And it felt like it was at

6:00

times disruptive to the story, like took

6:02

it in like some weird sidebar direction

6:04

that like I guess someone was interested

6:07

in. But like the other three people

6:09

and I of the table weren't really

6:11

headed in that direction. And so like

6:13

where were we? And I just, maybe

6:15

this is just because I'm allergic to

6:17

prep, but I found it really difficult

6:19

and anxiety producing to actually try to

6:21

incorporate beats into my prep. I think

6:24

that's fair. You know, the resistance system

6:26

generally does want you to do a

6:28

lot of prep in order to like

6:30

actually get to the point where you

6:32

can make that system work and make

6:34

those fallouts pay off. That said, though,

6:36

I think it really is just like

6:38

you kind of have to be very

6:40

explicit about how that works and be

6:43

like, hey players, this session, we are

6:45

going to try to trip these two

6:47

beats. So you two players, look out

6:49

for them. Sorry, other two players, we

6:51

just got to focus on these. Maybe

6:53

next time it'll be your chance. And

6:55

then, you know, I think it really

6:57

just has to be like, I need

7:00

your help because this is a lot

7:02

to manage. correct that it seems and

7:04

can be overwhelming and it is just

7:06

a matter of like being very clear

7:08

about expectations and how to how to

7:10

set those off. Yeah, well I think

7:12

maybe it's like a players skill thing

7:14

too, right? Like if you're out here

7:17

picking beats that are like wildly afield

7:19

from what the rest of the party

7:21

is interested in doing, then like. On

7:23

the one hand that's sort of your

7:25

entry into the conversation that like maybe

7:27

the direction we're headed is not one

7:29

that I'm interested in and like maybe

7:31

can we pull it in this direction

7:34

and it's nice to have a mechanic

7:36

that kind of flags that but it

7:38

is also sort of like okay cool

7:40

but we are gonna do these other

7:42

things too you know like if you're

7:44

if you're gonna go do that like

7:46

I guess have fun I don't know

7:48

I like the way that it is

7:51

a real nice line of communication like

7:53

a medium of communication beat selection and

7:55

corporation but it felt bad that the

7:57

responsibility for it was so entirely placed

7:59

on the DM then yes I think

8:01

that's completely fair I think that is

8:03

a you know a difficulty of using

8:05

the resistance system and I think the

8:08

only way to get around that is

8:10

communication unfortunately even if it does break

8:12

the you know the narrative spell right

8:14

I think that you just got to

8:16

be like hey help me out here

8:18

yeah it was really interesting like I

8:20

started playing heart right on the tail

8:22

of play testing our traveling home, which

8:25

is a game by Ash Crider, my

8:27

friend, who I then went on to

8:29

play heart with, which is basically like

8:31

a Howl's Moving Castle game. Right? It's

8:33

very like Stupot-like in fire brands like

8:35

in the kinds of mini games that

8:37

it sets up for you to play.

8:39

But each character is like a pre-gen

8:41

character, like a pre-scribed character, who comes

8:44

with a bunch of beats. They're called

8:46

markers in our traveling home and they'd

8:48

be things like, complain about being taken

8:50

advantage of, warn the wizard that they're

8:52

in danger of losing their humanity, grudgingly

8:54

use your power to make the family

8:56

happy. And I found the... beats the

8:58

markers in that game to be really

9:01

really great. But I think that in

9:03

retrospect, that is because they were things

9:05

that like I could do like I

9:07

had control over like I knew they

9:09

were my responsibility as a player to

9:11

eventually do these things. And then that

9:13

sort of like set up the natural

9:15

interactions with other characters like my arc

9:18

personally. with the wizard like all these

9:20

things are just sort of included in

9:22

these beats that only I have to

9:24

think about and once we came into

9:26

heart and started doing heart beats incidentally

9:28

incredible upon because they're more open-ended because

9:30

they're not my responsibility it got muddy

9:32

or it just got lost somewhere the

9:35

magic of it. I wonder also I

9:37

don't know if in our traveling home

9:39

those beats are tied to any sort

9:41

of narrative or mechanical like advancement? A

9:43

little bit. The way it works there

9:45

is like, as a group, you know,

9:47

we have like 20 markers to hit

9:49

in Act 1 and 20 markers to

9:52

hit in Act 2. And then at

9:54

the end of the game, we get

9:56

the best possible ending if we got

9:58

37 plus markers. And we get like

10:00

a little bit worse ending if we

10:02

had 30 to 37 markers and so

10:04

forth. So it's sort of. turns into

10:06

like how dower of an ending do

10:09

you get right so in that game

10:11

hitting those beats is incentivized to get

10:13

a good ending for your entire table

10:15

yeah whereas in heart it is both

10:17

specifically tied to an individual character's advancement

10:19

and also you know your mechanical advancement

10:21

which is traditionally handed down via XB

10:23

or whatever you call it when you

10:25

hit a certain marker and then you

10:28

level up from the GM and I

10:30

think that might be another point of

10:32

friction where it's like it feels weird

10:34

to be like hey GM I want

10:36

to level up can we please you

10:38

know find that tall building so I

10:40

can kick someone off of it yeah

10:42

yeah totally and that is another point

10:45

of contention that is fair but you

10:47

know You know, thinking about it that

10:49

way, like, my experience of playing our

10:51

traveling home was that zero people actually

10:53

thought about the reward of good ending

10:55

at the end of the game. The

10:57

thing that you thought about was like,

10:59

well, this is the checklist of things

11:02

I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna go

11:04

do them now. And when the heartbeats

11:06

out there are more DM facing, they

11:08

stopped. I mean, I guess I'd be

11:10

curious what the experiences like as a

11:12

player of heart because I've only DM

11:14

did. But my experience was that the

11:16

players were no longer. thinking of those

11:19

beats as their responsibility. They were thinking

11:21

of them as my responsibility. And so

11:23

they're not in the middle of the

11:25

session being like, okay, okay, how can

11:27

I defend a haven from attack? Because

11:29

I can't start that because I'm not

11:31

gonna go attack the haven, right? Or

11:33

like, I had a player, I remember,

11:36

take a beat that's like, take minor

11:38

bloodfall out and kept trying to like

11:40

pick. fights with people and then like

11:42

just never got minor blood fallout and

11:44

was like I tried so hard to

11:46

get this beat checked because I wanted

11:48

an ability based off of it and

11:50

it just like it just didn't work

11:53

out because they just had less control

11:55

over the ability to do it right

11:57

that's true especially the ones that's like

11:59

hit X fallout it's like well I

12:01

just depends on how the dice would

12:03

go yeah and that can be disappointing

12:05

from a player standpoint because you know

12:07

as you said earlier people love to

12:10

die and to take fallout yeah I

12:12

mean like even in spite of that

12:14

I do think it is so useful

12:16

as a mechanical and you know narrative

12:18

scaffolding tool totally like let's aim for

12:20

this so I can actually have a

12:22

narrative arc which is not something that

12:24

everybody thinks about when they're when they're

12:26

making a tabletop RPG character yeah absolutely

12:29

I mean I've been kind of like

12:31

dragging on beads here but I think

12:33

there's a lot of really good here

12:35

even if the execution doesn't totally come

12:37

together for me and I think let's

12:39

talk about the ways in which beats

12:41

just rule for a minute. Like, maybe,

12:43

what's turn this over to you? Like,

12:46

what do you love about beats? And

12:48

what about them, like, really works for

12:50

you, if it does? First, I do

12:52

a little bit of writing. I... wrote

12:54

a novel and then I made a

12:56

resistance system game based in the world

12:58

of that novel to top for the

13:00

ravenous. And I'm very proud of that.

13:03

So that's where my love of the

13:05

beat system comes from is that like

13:07

writing tradition, right? Not to dredge up

13:09

a conversation that was had last year

13:11

on the internet, but like when Quinn's

13:13

Quest was talking about Slug Blaster, he

13:15

made the comment that like, our refugees

13:17

have difficulty telling stories and like actual

13:20

plays are successful because they have people

13:22

that are working towards building those character

13:24

arcsks out. you're just kind of chilling

13:26

with your friends, it's a little bit

13:28

more difficult to do that. You know,

13:30

not everybody like has that sense that

13:32

you are building over an arc, you

13:34

have to, you know, like establish your

13:37

character, establish what they want, have them

13:39

face adversity in finding what they want,

13:41

and then have a change where they're

13:43

a different person at the end, right?

13:45

You know, in that traditional three act

13:47

structure way. And that's. That's not to

13:49

say that there's anything wrong with that

13:51

style of play or that it is

13:54

even, that that three-act structure, you know,

13:56

character being changed over the course of

13:58

the story, is the norm or should

14:00

be the norm. Microscope is a great

14:02

game and isn't doing that, right? There

14:04

are plenty of games that are clearly

14:06

aspiring to do that and don't necessarily

14:08

do a good job of supporting players

14:10

in doing so. Right, exactly. And that's

14:13

why I think it is so nice

14:15

to have that path laid out, right?

14:17

Even segmenting it into minor major and,

14:19

you know, zenith beats does give you

14:21

a three-act structure, right? You have, here's

14:23

a little bit of adversity that kind

14:25

of adds to your character in the

14:27

minor beat. Let's have a major bit

14:30

of adversity that's like, okay, you're taking

14:32

a big step, you know, it's not

14:34

just like, oh, be kind of shady

14:36

to your blow up a building or

14:38

whatever in order to get closer to

14:40

the heart, right? And then finally culminating

14:42

in that narrative climax with your zenith

14:44

to be like, hey, now I've reached

14:47

the apex of my character's arc. You

14:49

know, this also works really well because

14:51

it is again a horror game in

14:53

that way, and it is like aiming

14:55

towards like a kind of like big

14:57

red reveal at the end. But like

14:59

I do love that this game is

15:01

trying to get players to think about

15:04

that and be like, okay, yeah, if

15:06

I take the forced calling is a

15:08

really interesting one because it's like, oh,

15:10

I don't actually want to be here.

15:12

This sucks. And like that kind of

15:14

says like, oh, your your whole arc

15:16

is like, you are being controlled by

15:18

a group of people that are like

15:21

making you go into the heart. And

15:23

at the end, it's like, okay, you

15:25

either you either. make it so they

15:27

can never control you again or you

15:29

get back at them. And that, like

15:31

if you start from there, it is

15:33

really useful to be like, okay, let's

15:35

work our way back and get to

15:38

where that character arc is. You know,

15:40

when I am writing a novel, whenever

15:42

I plot out a character arc, it

15:44

is very useful for me to write

15:46

out where I think the arc is

15:48

going to go, write the book, and

15:50

then be like, okay, I kind of

15:52

got there or actually, or actually, I

15:54

have a really cool ending image, that

15:57

ending, but by telling the players who

15:59

are reading heart, hey, this is where

16:01

you are ending, they can already start

16:03

aiming towards that and start taking beats

16:05

to lead to that path, which I

16:07

think is a really useful technology. Yeah,

16:09

I mean, I write the same way.

16:11

I find it really hard to write

16:14

a screenplay without knowing what that climactic

16:16

scene is going to look like, like

16:18

what that final moment is going to

16:20

be. I mean, even if the actual

16:22

execution of beats is not working for

16:24

me, like the overall structure of them,

16:26

I think does exactly what you're talking

16:28

about and like makes the game better

16:31

by virtue of its existence because people

16:33

are thinking about it, right? Like who

16:35

cares about the actual minutia of the

16:37

mechanic? The fact that like, we know

16:39

that you are the forest, you are

16:41

down here thinking about not wanting to

16:43

be here and getting back at your

16:45

captors, like... It's so, so good to

16:48

have set that up in advance and

16:50

to know where that's ending so that

16:52

you can steer into it. And so

16:54

that other people can support you in

16:56

that too, right? And the DM can

16:58

support you in that, and your fellow

17:00

players can support you in that. Right,

17:02

right. And I do think it does

17:05

require communication both with your game master

17:07

and the people at the table to

17:09

be like, hey, here's roughly where my

17:11

character arc is going to end up

17:13

broadly. I am a fan of doing

17:15

that kind of meta conversation at your

17:17

conversation at your table. This

17:22

episode at Dice Explorer is brought to you

17:24

by the game I'm crowdfunding over this summer

17:26

kiss me if you can Robin is a

17:29

notorious art thief Fox is a well-respected special

17:31

agent hot on Robin's tail and determined to

17:33

bring them to justice Will Fox catch Robin

17:35

will Robin get away and before the end

17:38

will they kiss? Kissmi if you can is

17:40

a card-based tabletop role playing game for two

17:42

players that lets you make your own wrong

17:44

column in under an hour. And it's also

17:47

the culmination of a lot of lessons I've

17:49

learned making dice explorers. So if you're curious

17:51

where my head is at with design right

17:53

now, you can go to Kickstarter and follow

17:56

Kissmi if you can, launching on Kickstarter this

17:58

summer. This

18:02

is a sort of an adjacent idea

18:05

to beets, but some of the beats

18:07

are just kind of boring right like

18:09

take minor bloodfall out to me It's

18:11

not a particularly interesting beat like it

18:13

doesn't really say a lot about your

18:15

character It's just sort of like get

18:18

hurt and like that's still like encouraging

18:20

you to get in trouble and I

18:22

think that that's perfectly good, but I

18:24

also think that it's just Good to

18:26

have really simple generic things like that

18:28

as possibilities on a list like this

18:30

so that when people are like I

18:33

don't know I don't want to think

18:35

about it right now or I'm tired

18:37

they can just like or like I

18:39

don't understand how this game works and

18:41

like I know what that means at

18:43

least that they can just like check

18:46

those and take them I think that

18:48

there is a lot of value in

18:50

like simplicity like that right in the

18:52

same way that like the fighter is

18:54

just not a complicated class in D&D

18:56

for the most part it's good that

18:58

that's there so that if someone is

19:01

like I don't understand how any of

19:03

this shit works I just want to

19:05

do something simple I just want to

19:07

be a guy who hits people with

19:09

a sword whatever well it's good to

19:11

play like I think they including that

19:14

kind of thing in your game is

19:16

really good Yeah, I mean, sometimes it

19:18

is just nice to be like, here's

19:20

the two contrasts, right? You have getting

19:22

a fight and take, you know, minor

19:24

blood fallout. It's like, all right, sure,

19:26

that's not hard to engineer. And then

19:29

there's more, like, exciting ones that are

19:31

specific, like, have a cocktail fighting move

19:33

or legendary beast named after you. And

19:35

it's like, okay, I think the presence

19:37

of those more boring beats does help

19:39

draw a parallel to be, hey, this

19:41

game is as weird as you want

19:44

to be. Yeah, totally. Have you dimmed

19:46

a lot of resistance stuff? Yeah, I

19:48

have probably done at this point, like

19:50

maybe eight-ish resistance games. Oh, wow. Yeah.

19:52

So what is your experience in contrast

19:54

to mine of like being a DM,

19:57

taking in beats, and then working with

19:59

them? Yeah, I mean, like, I don't

20:01

disagree that it is, it can be

20:03

overwhelming. I mostly run. one shots of

20:05

heart specifically. So it is way harder

20:07

to do beats in a one shot.

20:09

I think it is absolutely more geared

20:12

towards a campaign. Totally. But yeah, I

20:14

do think it is it is useful

20:16

right as a point of prep. Like

20:18

I I'm going to be running a

20:20

one shot of heart tomorrow and the

20:22

thing that I asked was like, hey,

20:25

can you send me the beats that

20:27

your characters are art to? Yeah. Because

20:29

it's like, okay, here are some flags

20:31

that I can start building my prep

20:33

around. That's really useful. and then like

20:35

I think when I run it again

20:37

I'll you know because of this conversation

20:40

I'll be like hey can y'all just

20:42

like say if at a certain point

20:44

you feel like we can direct the

20:46

story towards this you know say it

20:48

out loud because yeah like I do

20:50

think it is hard and there is

20:53

a play culture expectation that the GM

20:55

is going to make everything happen and

20:57

I you know I think that beats

20:59

are useful in helping to communicate that

21:01

need both to the GM and to

21:03

the players and you know I think

21:05

it just is a matter of like

21:08

like having to be open and honest,

21:10

like, hey, I can't, I can't think

21:12

of all these right now. And hopefully

21:14

over the course of, you know, multiple

21:16

sessions, you can kind of hit the

21:18

beat that you want to. Yeah. So

21:20

let's all hold in your head. So

21:23

I wrote this blog post last year

21:25

about principles. and moves and agendas in

21:27

PBTA games, where like Apocalypse World has

21:29

all these agendas and principles that I

21:31

think are like really good advice and

21:33

like goals to keep in mind as

21:36

you're playing, and also there's like 11

21:38

of them, and I just can't keep

21:40

all of those in my head when

21:42

I'm playing the game. Like at this

21:44

point in my life, I've internalized most

21:46

of them, but I'm doing them kind

21:48

of reflexively, and like that's one thing.

21:51

But when I was starting to GM,

21:53

I felt just like... completely overwhelmed by

21:55

trying to do all of those things

21:57

at once. And I wrote about how

21:59

like Apocalypse World also has all these

22:01

like good pieces of advice in the

22:04

book that aren't categorized into principles and

22:06

agendas. And I didn't feel overwhelmed by

22:08

those. I would just remember them sometimes

22:10

and I wouldn't others, but they're not

22:12

like on. the MC sheet when you're

22:14

looking at it, sort of stare you

22:16

in the face being like, remember, you

22:19

have to do these things. So I

22:21

was writing about like, you just have

22:23

fewer principles. And I got pushed back

22:25

by people saying like, well, I just

22:27

like ignore them, you know, like if

22:29

I don't know what to do, I

22:32

look down, I skim those and like

22:34

if one tells me what to do

22:36

and inspires me, then that's great. And

22:38

I go back to it. And I

22:40

think that there's really this split between

22:42

this split between this split between people

22:44

between people between people who. are looking

22:47

to the rules as a safety net.

22:49

Like when they don't know what to

22:51

say next, they look to their sheet

22:53

and they're like, ah, that gives me

22:55

an idea and then they say the

22:57

next thing. And then there are people

23:00

like me who are thinking of that

23:02

sheet as like, you must do these

23:04

things. Like this is your obligation to

23:06

do all of this all the time.

23:08

And I know that's not often like

23:10

how it's written, but that's just like

23:12

how it feels to me. And I

23:15

feel like there might be a split.

23:17

on beats there also of like sure.

23:19

Are these an obligation or are these

23:21

something that you can just kind of

23:23

look to when you need to? figure

23:25

out what to say next. Yeah, the

23:27

problem with tabletop games is that they

23:30

can't make you follow the rules. Yeah.

23:32

There's no nobody is going to come

23:34

out and scold you for not getting,

23:36

you know, your principles exactly right. I

23:38

feel like they're gonna, like, I feel

23:40

like I want to trust the designer,

23:43

you know, I want to trust that

23:45

the designer put those there for a

23:47

reason. Vincent Baker is opening his notes

23:49

app right now, writing a call out

23:51

post. Yeah, I mean, like, no, because,

23:53

like, I think it's true, right? Especially

23:55

if, as, you know, a game designer,

23:58

you're like, I wrote the game in

24:00

a specific way, I do want it

24:02

to be played in a specific way,

24:04

and when you see other people doing

24:06

that, you assume, like, hey, I want

24:08

this game to be played in a

24:11

certain way, because, like, it does produce

24:13

a certain result when it is played.

24:15

Yeah. you kind of have to take

24:17

what works, right? Like at the end

24:19

of the day, none of us have

24:21

enough time to play games. And like

24:23

I think. we just kind of have

24:26

to wing it and maybe that is

24:28

the thing with beats is like, they

24:30

are useful up and to a point.

24:32

I think they are great for planning

24:34

and in execution, you kind of have

24:36

to be a little bit more flexible

24:39

with them. But I completely understand the

24:41

impulse to be like, this is the

24:43

way the game was designed. I have

24:45

to do it. I think I've like

24:47

come out of like board games and

24:49

stuff where like sometimes, you know, you

24:51

get a rule wrong and suddenly the

24:54

entire economy of settlers like a guitar

24:56

That's because you got something wrong, not

24:58

because it was designed poorly. And like,

25:00

maybe it was designed poorly because they

25:02

didn't communicate well enough. Or maybe you

25:04

just fucked up. And like, I think

25:06

that it's sometimes tricky to thread the

25:09

needle on that to me of like,

25:11

when is it the case that I

25:13

should just be doing my own fucking

25:15

thing and like it's all going to

25:17

be fine? And when is it the

25:19

case that the designer put that there

25:22

for a reason and the game's going

25:24

to fall apart if I don't remember

25:26

it? Right, right. Board games is a

25:28

really great example because like yeah, in

25:30

board games it is much more likely

25:32

that if you misread something you ruined

25:34

the game. And that's kind of what

25:37

I like about tabletop games is that

25:39

it's like, ah, it won't mess it

25:41

up quite that bad. There are still

25:43

some rules that if you completely ignore,

25:45

it's like, oh, this doesn't work anymore.

25:47

But like... Yeah, I mean, I guess

25:50

that is the downside of my approach,

25:52

which is, you know, mostly reading, which

25:54

is like, sometimes you do just have

25:56

to try things at the table and

25:58

see how it works. And I think

26:00

that is, you know, a downside of

26:02

me having only played mostly one-shots with

26:05

Harris. Like, I haven't really seen how

26:07

the beat system fully, you know, expands.

26:09

at the time when I was playing

26:11

heart and I was looking for myself

26:13

talking about heart at the moment to

26:15

see how I felt then and I

26:18

found these messages that were like clearly

26:20

in the middle of a campaign where

26:22

I was like the beat system rules

26:24

and like like I don't know like

26:26

I didn't I didn't recognize myself you

26:28

don't like it In retrospect, I'm coming

26:30

with this whole narrative. Yeah, who is

26:33

this man? I've come with this whole

26:35

narrative of like why it didn't work

26:37

for me and I think that that's

26:39

true But also like clearly I was

26:41

getting something out of it at the

26:43

time and like I was getting all

26:45

this stuff that we've been talking about

26:48

it at the time That's the thing

26:50

about this whole fucking game for me

26:52

and this mechanic in particular is like

26:54

there is so much good all the

26:56

sign posting stuff we've been talking about

26:58

is so good. And there's rough stuff

27:01

in there. And it's not like it's

27:03

I don't think it's like a good

27:05

mechanic or a bad mechanic. I think

27:07

it's like a little bit of a

27:09

messy mechanic for when it collides with

27:11

my particular instincts as a person. And

27:13

that's, I don't know, that's interesting. Yeah.

27:16

I mean, you're certainly not alone. I've

27:18

definitely seen people on the internet be

27:20

like, I can't run resistance system games

27:22

because they demand so much of it.

27:24

you have to know yourself and know

27:26

your players and I mean that that

27:29

is also you know the other side

27:31

of the conversation about reading versus playing

27:33

when you're talking about games is like

27:35

there are so many different players styles

27:37

and choices that you make that like

27:39

it is hard to tell until you

27:41

work with your table specifically to see

27:44

what will work for them so I

27:46

think that there are absolutely groups of

27:48

people who are more into the idea

27:50

of character arcs who will be like

27:52

okay yeah let's all nail this down

27:54

and there are other groups will be

27:57

like ah I'm mostly here for getting

27:59

turned into a bloodsucking plant or whatever

28:01

yeah yeah I'm thinking about after I

28:03

was done playing heart I want the

28:05

belonging outside belonging, like setting elements version

28:07

of this game. And when I was

28:09

talking about our traveling home earlier, I

28:12

think maybe the thing I was intuitively

28:14

picking up on there is the like

28:16

GMless nature would make it so that

28:18

you as a player can just make

28:20

that haven come under attack so that

28:22

you can go defend it, right? And

28:25

maybe we don't necessarily want me to

28:27

just... be like, okay, and now the

28:29

Haven's under attack and I describe all

28:31

these cool things and then my person

28:33

goes in there and like saves them.

28:35

Like maybe that's not the best way

28:37

for like a GMless game to work.

28:40

But like, I do think that I

28:42

really feel like a version of this

28:44

system where like. You the player have

28:46

the authority as we were kind of

28:48

talking about in the Zenith abilities episode,

28:50

right? Like if you have the narrative

28:52

authority to come in and introduce the

28:55

beat and make the beat happen yourself

28:57

Then I would feel so much better

28:59

about these I would feel like I

29:01

love I love the idea of taking

29:03

this system and putting it more in

29:05

the hands of players So the gym

29:08

doesn't have to work so fucking hard.

29:10

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a

29:12

really interesting thought experiment to be like,

29:14

yeah, I take a weak move to

29:16

be like my throat bursts open and

29:18

a million little capillary serpents come out

29:20

of it. Yeah. Yeah, I do think

29:23

that one, it gets away from the

29:25

problem of having to do a lot

29:27

of prep and planning and scaffolding out.

29:29

And it also gets back to that

29:31

like conversation we just had, which was

29:33

like, you know, being willing to inflict

29:36

pain upon yourself eagerly. Yeah. I don't

29:38

know. I just... I'm really stuck on

29:40

the idea of just like a little

29:42

haven in the middle of the heart

29:44

doing the belonging outside belonging like you

29:46

know queer haven that that's just like

29:48

trying to survive I think that is

29:51

a really fun just transplant that system

29:53

into the setting of heart inspire that's

29:55

really fun. Well and I've been thinking

29:57

about it as like no you're still

29:59

an adventuring party we're still going deeper

30:01

and deeper into the heart like we

30:04

each have a character but we're also

30:06

sort of each contributing our dreams to

30:08

what happens, like nightmares to what happens.

30:10

And that sort of collective unconsciousness that

30:12

heart I think is a lot about,

30:14

like the in fiction heart is sort

30:16

of a collective unconsciousness. And I think

30:19

that there would be something really. to

30:21

making this game G.M. less that taps

30:23

into that thematically too. Yeah, I mean,

30:25

I don't have anything interesting to say.

30:27

I just think that's a really good

30:29

idea. That's really smart. I would get

30:31

around a lot of our criticisms, I

30:34

think. Yeah, Rowan Rooker-decker hired me to

30:36

make Second Edition of Heart challenge. Okay,

30:38

so I feel like that's a nice

30:40

transition into like concluding thoughts about heart.

30:42

Like, if you have last words on

30:44

heart as a game. What are they?

30:47

I mean, maybe it's just because I'm

30:49

a filthy, wretched Youtuber, but like at

30:51

the end of the day, I think

30:53

what makes heart work is its setting.

30:55

I think that obviously there's some interesting

30:57

bits of lore in there that I

30:59

think are very tasty. But like, it

31:02

is such a strongly and vividly written

31:04

setting that I think it is instantly

31:06

getting people excited about it. And then

31:08

when you tie your entire, you know,

31:10

playbook system into that setting, then it

31:12

kind of integrates you into a way

31:15

that gets you excited, right? Obviously, there's

31:17

a deep apierist, but you know, Fermatian

31:19

night, the incarnate, the blood witches, right?

31:21

There's all sorts of weird classes that

31:23

aren't just, as we said, they are

31:25

kind of fighters, yes. they are kind

31:27

of like, Wizards, but they're also deeply

31:30

bought into their own shit. And I

31:32

really love designers that are unafraid to

31:34

be like, yeah, this is what my

31:36

world's like, and I, you are required

31:38

to have a functional understanding of the

31:40

lore in order to play this game.

31:43

You know, maybe that's not useful at

31:45

the table, but I do want us

31:47

to be more snobs about the worlds

31:49

that we design. this came and it

31:51

is what makes it strong. It's what

31:53

makes Zenith abilities so wonderful, not just

31:55

the scope and scale of them, but

31:58

the specificity is so cool. And beats

32:00

too, like the best parts of beats

32:02

are the specificity. Like here is the

32:04

specific question choice that your character arc

32:06

is. going to be about. Here is

32:08

the specific scene that we want to

32:10

see next. And it's not just the

32:13

fact that the details of this setting

32:15

are so, so fucking good. It's the

32:17

fact that there are details in the

32:19

fucking first place. Right. Even if it

32:21

was just D&D-styled druid fighter wizard classes

32:23

in here, if you added character arc

32:26

questions, if you added specific scenes and

32:28

things that might go from there, I

32:30

mean, even in D&D, the idea of

32:32

a spell called flaming hands where you

32:34

have, like, the detail of your thumbs

32:36

have to come together at the beginning

32:38

of to make this particular gesture, that

32:41

specificity is the kind of thing that

32:43

makes even D&D sing, and it's turned

32:45

up... a thousand percent in heart. Aaron,

32:47

thanks for doing two episodes of Dice

32:49

Explorer with me here. This has been

32:51

fabulous. Thanks so much. I'm glad to

32:54

have gotten my treaties on Heart and

32:56

into the world. Listen, I'm happy to

32:58

defend the honor of Heart and I'm

33:00

glad to have talked to you. Dice

33:02

Explorer has just been a huge influence

33:04

on my video, so thanks so much

33:06

for what you've done. Oh, of course.

33:09

You too, Van. Thanks

33:14

again to Aaron for being here.

33:16

You can find his video essays

33:18

on YouTube at A-A-A-V-O-I-G-T. You can

33:20

support his work on Patreon and

33:22

he's on Blue Sky at AA

33:24

Point. As always, you can find

33:26

me on Blue Sky at Dice

33:28

Explorer or on the Dice Explorer.

33:30

You can find my games at

33:32

S.donewell.ich.io. And you can support the

33:34

show on Patreon for just five

33:36

bucks a month. Our logo was

33:38

designed by Sporgari. Our theme song

33:40

is Sunset Bridge by purely gray

33:43

and our ad music is Lily

33:45

Pad's Bumble Boy, Travis Tessper. And

33:47

thanks to you for listening. I'll.