0:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of

0:07

Dice Explorer. Each week we take a

0:09

tabletop RPG mechanic and rocket it straight

0:11

into the fucking sun. My name is

0:13

Sam Donawald and my co-host today is

0:16

Aaron Voit. Today we're taking a little

0:18

break from Larp's. Pretty close to the end

0:20

of the Larp series here. I got

0:22

a few episodes to kind of wrap

0:24

things up, but... I'm tired of it.

0:26

Let's do something else. Let's talk about

0:29

some classic fucking games. Today we're doing

0:31

Heart the City Beneath by Rowan, Brooke,

0:33

and Deckard. Heart is the spiritual successor

0:35

to Spire a game about revolutionary dry

0:38

elves in a high-elf city. But instead

0:40

of doing terrorism on colonizers, Heart takes

0:42

us below this wretched city to a

0:45

vast dungeon-like space beneath, ruled by dream

0:47

logic, the heart. It's a dungeon crawler,

0:49

but a really weird one, with some

0:51

of the most creative and spicy, sideways

0:53

logic fantasy ideas in it that I've

0:55

ever encountered. But I have a complicated

0:57

relationship with this game. I love parts

0:59

of it, while others really do not

1:01

work for me. But I think it's

1:03

really valuable to talk about what doesn't

1:05

work in games, especially games where so

1:07

much of it is firing so strongly.

1:09

And heart is super popular, so I

1:12

think it can take the criticism. And

1:14

I actually feel so strongly about both

1:16

the good and the bad of this

1:18

game that I wanted to spend two

1:20

episodes on it. One today, on what I

1:22

think makes heart so special. We're doing that

1:24

through the lens of Zenith abilities, basically gigantic

1:26

epic ultimate abilities that do something incredibly fucking

1:28

cool, and then probably kill your character. And

1:30

then next week, it's more heart and more

1:32

of what I struggle with. But we'll get

1:34

to that when we get to it. To

1:37

do all this, and to be a little

1:39

more critical, I knew I wanted to have

1:41

someone on with me who's much more ardent

1:43

lover and defender of the game. And I'd

1:45

also been looking for an excuse to have

1:47

Aaron Voite on the show. Aaron is game

1:49

designer, but he's also one of just a

1:51

few people on YouTube regularly making video essays

1:54

about indie RPGs. He's got a wide back

1:56

catalog with essays on games like Stup Hot,

1:58

Triangle Agency, and tons of other. games like

2:00

the kind I feature here on Dice

2:02

Explorer. So if you like this show,

2:04

you may like his work too. Before

2:06

we get into it, thanks to everyone

2:09

who supports Dice Explorer on Patreon. And

2:11

with that, here is Aaron Voit with

2:13

Zenith abilities from heart, The City Beneath.

2:15

Aaron Voit, thanks for being on Dice

2:17

Explorer, finally. Yeah, thank you so much

2:20

for having me, Sam. Hart, the city

2:22

beneath, that's what we're here to talk

2:24

about today, by Rowan Rook and Deckard,

2:26

it's Grant Howett and Christopher Taylor, art

2:28

by Felix Mial, which we will, maybe

2:31

we can take a second to talk

2:33

about how fucking good the art is.

2:35

This game is just unbelievable. But do

2:37

you want to like give the initial

2:39

pitch for Hart, what's the deal here,

2:42

where did it come from? Well, it

2:44

came from Spire. So, Spire is a

2:46

game about revolutionary drows, fighting fighting and

2:48

oppressive, high elf like. system in their

2:50

big tower city. And that was published,

2:52

I want to say in 2018, by

2:54

R.D. And then Heart Has Its Origins

2:56

Inspire because they have like a little

2:58

section in the original book of Spire

3:00

where they're like, hey, so the center

3:03

of the city is called the Heart

3:05

and it's weird and messed up and

3:07

we don't know what's going on in

3:09

there, but it's making the city wrong.

3:11

And then after Spire was very successful,

3:13

How It and Taylor like, what if

3:15

we took that out? of the big

3:18

tower city and put it underground and

3:20

then made it like its own game

3:22

and turned into a dungeon crawling thing.

3:25

So that's where Hart comes from. And

3:27

I think they did a pretty good

3:29

job of it. Yeah, I think

3:31

it is a really interesting

3:33

take on what's cool about dungeneering,

3:36

like, dunget games, because it

3:38

is much, much closer to

3:40

like annihilation the movie or

3:42

the book than to... Dungeons

3:44

and Dragons in my view.

3:46

It's super weird. It's super

3:49

character-based and like location-based environment-based.

3:51

It doesn't care like what room

3:53

you are in versus the next

3:55

room so much as it cares

3:57

about the fact that you're in.

3:59

in a cavern covered by

4:02

clamshells or whatever. It's just

4:04

this weird, strange, constantly evolving

4:07

place. Yeah, absolutely. I think it

4:09

is explicitly, you know, inspired by

4:11

annihilation. In fact, you know, several

4:13

abilities are just like quotes from

4:15

that book and like. Yeah, I

4:18

think, you know, the concept of

4:20

the heart is that it is

4:22

like a parasite reality that is

4:24

trying to, you know, it is

4:27

coming in from somewhere else and

4:29

taking over. But also, it's like,

4:31

it's benevolent question mark, like, because,

4:33

you know, as they talk about

4:35

in the designer's commentary, the heart

4:38

wants to give you what you

4:40

want. You know, that's the whole

4:42

thing about the beat systems, like,

4:44

you come down there seeking something

4:46

something, and... and red and wet

4:48

and hungry. But that's a really

4:50

cool way to be like, yeah,

4:52

dungeons are just a series of

4:54

rooms that have weird stuff happen

4:56

in them. And what if there's

4:58

a whole game that gave you

5:00

the excuse to make the weirdest

5:02

rooms you can think of? Yeah.

5:04

It's really cool to. externalize

5:07

the inner lives and desires

5:09

of characters in this way.

5:11

So the setting for this

5:13

thing is just full of

5:15

weird shit. No one ever

5:17

brings up heart without also

5:19

bringing up the deep apiarist.

5:21

So this is the law.

5:23

The deep apiarist is a...

5:25

playable class in which you are a

5:28

person who is slowly turning yourself into bees

5:30

or a hive for bees to live. I've

5:32

never heard of a campaign of heart

5:34

that didn't include a deep apiarist. People

5:36

just love that bee guy, you know?

5:39

Yeah. I mean, there's, if you're going

5:41

through the character, you know, options, it's

5:43

like, you are a living beehive, like,

5:45

it's hard to beat that. But then

5:47

the game kind of does also, like,

5:49

yeah, I mean, there's so many great

5:52

classes in this book. There's just a

5:54

whole bunch of weird stuff that they

5:56

create in that setting, and they like

5:58

just extrapolate to, it's strange. just agree

6:00

in a way that really works. What

6:02

is your favorite weird fact about the

6:05

setting? So a weird fun thing about

6:07

the world of Spire and Heart is

6:09

that, so the elf air are like

6:11

evil, like a high elf colonialist basically,

6:13

and they come from like a land

6:16

very far north of where Spire is

6:18

set. But because that land is so

6:20

far north, you know, it's very cold

6:22

up there, but Spire is like basically

6:25

in the middle of a desert, or

6:27

at least much warmer from where they

6:29

are, and like because they are, you

6:31

know, displaced into a warmer climate,

6:33

it makes them weirder and it

6:35

cuts them off from their gods.

6:37

And they have to like build

6:39

special like ice rooms to go and

6:42

like take ice baths to make them

6:44

normal again. They're trying to create this

6:46

like, like, you know, empire. like my

6:48

little spire bit, but actually my favorite

6:51

bit in all of heart is the

6:53

disease that makes you build mazes.

6:55

The labyrinth disease. Yeah, the Minotaur

6:57

disease. Yeah, no. I work in

7:00

public health and I would hate

7:02

for one day there to be

7:04

an outbreak of just like, ah.

7:07

Lads, somebody's gone through the Toys

7:09

R Us and just summoned an

7:11

unholy minatar that needs to keep

7:14

everything confined into its nightmare maze.

7:16

That's just a fun bit of

7:18

world building where you can just

7:21

mash words together and create something

7:23

monstrous. Yeah. I love the way

7:25

that this setting feels almost like,

7:27

like I think of Rick and

7:29

Mordi, the TV show at being

7:31

good at... taking a like classic trope

7:34

and pushing it at two or three

7:36

levels deeper. You know, like we're gonna

7:38

do the classic matrix thing of like

7:40

we're actually living in a simulation, but

7:43

we're gonna go like four simulations deep

7:45

or something. And I feel like this

7:47

is even better at taking the classic

7:49

trope of miniatures in a labyrinth or

7:51

whatever, and pushing it not just sort

7:54

of like stacking up the ideas of

7:56

it like that, but like pushing it

7:58

in that weird new direction. of like

8:00

it's gonna be a whole disease that

8:02

we're gonna go over the top with

8:05

it we're gonna build some new feeling

8:07

mythology like my favorite is the hydra

8:09

which is grown so many heads that

8:12

it has become a forest and each

8:14

tree in the forest is like a

8:16

hydra head and so if you go

8:18

into the hydra grove slowly you'll figure

8:20

out that the trees are aware of

8:22

you and start trying to eat you

8:25

and if you cut them down then

8:27

two new ones will crop back up

8:29

and yeah one idea to take a

8:31

Hydra and turn it into a location.

8:33

Yeah, yeah, I just went through looked

8:35

at that up in the book and

8:38

it's it's not just a forest. It's

8:40

the carotid forest, which is of course

8:42

a reference to the carotid artery and

8:44

like I think the like visceral anatomical

8:46

like basis of the pros of this

8:49

game is really really strong. I think

8:51

Howard and Taylor absolutely know how to

8:53

like keep their language. I think the

8:55

words read and wet come up probably

8:58

like more than anything else in this

9:00

book because like that's exactly what they're

9:02

going for is like that visceral feeling

9:04

and I just love that. Yeah, yeah,

9:07

totally. But that maybe brings us

9:09

a little bit to the mechanics.

9:11

I want to talk a little

9:13

bit about my background with heart

9:15

here. I read the book. I

9:18

thought it was incredibly cool for

9:20

all the reasons that we talked

9:22

about. And I immediately ran to

9:24

overlapping campaigns of it. And so I've

9:27

GM probably like 20 sessions of

9:29

the game. And My experience of

9:31

it is that like, yes, indeed,

9:33

the flavor was really cool, but

9:35

I had so many problems with

9:37

the rules being unnecessary for me

9:39

and being not unnecessary

9:41

in that way of like Sam loves

9:43

minimalism, but clunky in a way that

9:46

got in the way of doing the

9:48

cool part of the game and sort

9:50

of engaging with this setting. And yeah,

9:52

I wanted to have you on specifically

9:55

to talk about that, because I know

9:57

you have a lot of affection for

9:59

the resistance. system is very hard to

10:01

get right. It is taking that like mixed

10:03

success lineage from Power by the Apocalypse but

10:06

also trying to to bring in a new

10:08

level of like narrative control both for the

10:10

GM and for the players right that's what

10:13

the beat system is all about but also

10:15

you know there's no hit points but there's

10:17

like inflicting narrative consequences with the fallouts and

10:19

and sometimes that can be a little bit

10:22

you know disjointed but at the same time

10:24

I am just like so thrilled that it

10:26

is trying to do that. doesn't 100% get

10:29

there all the way I think it is

10:31

still absolutely a worthwhile you know system to

10:33

look into and be like okay yeah you

10:35

know instead of you take 10 damage right

10:38

it's like okay now on the next scene

10:40

I'm going to make somebody come up to

10:42

you and say we've been watching you and

10:45

you owe us nine dollars like I don't

10:47

know right something weird like that also you

10:49

know My love for this system is absolutely

10:51

based in the Friends of the Table

10:54

actual play, who did their Songfiel season

10:56

of heart. Yeah. And I think that's

10:58

just like a stunning examination of the

11:00

game, both what it can do and

11:02

what its flaws are. But like they

11:04

put it to such incredible and effective

11:07

use. So I just want to give

11:09

Songfiel a shout out. Totally. So I

11:11

want to start today by talking about...

11:13

a mechanic that I think

11:15

we both just think is an

11:17

all-around home run and then next

11:20

episode we're gonna have you back

11:22

and talk about a mechanic that

11:24

I struggle with a little

11:26

bit more and to begin

11:28

with let's talk about zenith

11:30

abilities. So abilities in this

11:32

game how does advancement work?

11:35

What is a zenith ability?

11:37

So to advance in this game, you have

11:39

to take what are called beats, which are

11:41

basically just like little tasks that you can

11:43

get, that if you start checking them off,

11:46

you get to take character advances, right? Yeah.

11:48

However, there are big beats that you can

11:50

take, which are called zenith beats, and those are

11:52

the ones that if you take them, they end

11:54

your character. If you say, okay, I'm going to

11:57

do this, this is going to be the end

11:59

of my character. arc and like because you

12:01

fulfill your character arc they kind of

12:03

lead to this big climactic moment they

12:05

usually give you an incredible ability that

12:08

is absolutely you know devastating you know

12:10

that's why it's safe for the end

12:12

of your arc right you can't just

12:14

introduce that halfway through a campaign but

12:16

also kill you yeah exactly right that's

12:19

the thing you also die horribly or

12:21

worse you don't die yeah yeah yeah

12:23

So yeah, so some like examples of

12:25

minor beats in the game are like

12:27

spare someone's life or take minor bloodfall

12:30

out and then that kind of builds

12:32

up into major beats which might

12:34

be like betray someone who really

12:36

trusts you or up into a

12:38

zenith beat where each character has

12:40

two potential zenith beats that are

12:42

like, resolve your whole ass character

12:44

arc, like, be truly absolved of

12:46

your sins, right? Huge things. And

12:48

we'll be coming back to beats

12:51

later, but what's read a zenith

12:53

ability? What's your favorite zenith ability?

12:55

And how does it work? Oh, I

12:57

don't know that I have a favorite

12:59

because they're all so fun and weird

13:01

and unique. Yeah, you cannot miss with

13:04

these. Right. I think a great one

13:06

to start with is the one for

13:08

the Vermicean Night, which is called perpetual

13:11

motion engine. Years of heartsblood radiation and

13:13

forbidden knowledge culminate in your ultimate work,

13:15

an engine powered by a throbbing heart

13:18

seed, a source of wild and limitless

13:20

power, upon implementation of the heart seed

13:22

into your suits furnace, you become an

13:25

unstoppableable force with an... the city beneath,

13:27

indeed you can never stop moving. You

13:29

turn into an evil train and you

13:31

leave, and then like later on when

13:33

your friends are in trouble, they could

13:36

be like, hey, remember, our old friend

13:38

Dave who turned into a train, he's

13:40

back now and he saves our lives

13:42

as a demon train. I'm gonna read

13:44

the rest of the ability to you

13:47

like, you stamp off into the darkness

13:49

and your characters removed from the story

13:51

except for the day of sex mockina

13:53

ability that is granted to all. surviving

13:55

members of your party. Day of Six,

13:58

Machina. Use this ability once per campaign. by

14:00

a single player character when you are

14:02

outside of a landmark and you or

14:04

an ally suffers major or critical fallout.

14:07

An inhuman collection of meat and twisted

14:09

steel, the vermice of the night, arrives.

14:11

They've been watching you this whole time.

14:14

They immediately inflict 25 stress. on absurd

14:16

amount of stress. This is angel killing

14:18

like amounts of stress. Like yeah, it's

14:21

ridiculous. On an adversary of the GM's

14:23

choosing, then disappeared the city beneath to

14:25

protect other delvers. So you get to

14:28

be a cool protector forever, you know?

14:30

Are you really that evil? I mean,

14:32

I guess that's for context, right? There's

14:34

an, I mean, even, and I'm looking

14:37

at the page right now, the next

14:39

zenith ability is, it's not that you

14:41

turn into a train that just runs

14:44

over your head, right? I like the

14:46

last train specifically because that's a lower

14:48

thing, right? The Fermatian is the subway

14:51

system that never got finished because it

14:53

punctured the heart and like that fucked

14:55

it all up. But then there's like,

14:58

so there is one train that made

15:00

it through and now it's haunted and

15:02

it's just around. That's so fun. Yeah.

15:05

And you know, you can just scroll

15:07

to any of these classes and like

15:09

pick a zenith bead and you're cool

15:12

as hell. incarnadine is a class that

15:14

I love who is a priest of

15:16

the God of debt and the zetith

15:19

abilities are like ultimate credit. You can

15:21

buy anything once. You own this physical

15:23

conceptual or immaterial thing and have as

15:26

much control over it as you do

15:28

a knife, a suit of clothes or

15:30

anything else you own. Two sessions from

15:32

now the debt will be recalled and

15:35

it will take your life. But like,

15:37

yeah, you could just like... control the

15:39

concept of love however you want for

15:42

two sessions. And like, that's pretty neat.

15:44

Yeah, they're just, they're just absurd over

15:46

the top. They're so cool. They're so

15:49

inspiring and so creative, right? That's the

15:51

thing. It's the level of creativity that

15:53

feels. Nearly unmatched in any other game

15:56

that I've ever read. And I think

15:58

that's to the resistance systems credit, right?

16:00

Because they don't get too bogged down

16:03

in numbers, and they do just allow

16:05

those like narrative possibilities to flow, I

16:07

think you're able to get away with

16:10

abilities that do this. You don't have

16:12

to worry that much about balancing because

16:14

you're just like, everything is kind of

16:17

narrative, right? Even when you're dealing with

16:19

like, you know, minor major and critical

16:21

fallout, like, you know, I think. again

16:23

for the resistance systems difficulties that is

16:26

a big strength of it. Yeah I

16:28

just want to point out like and

16:30

even when they are bringing numbers into

16:33

it they're doing so with reckless abandoned

16:35

right like you know if a regular

16:37

like dragon has eight hit points or

16:40

whatever at this setting they're like you

16:42

can just like run someone over and

16:44

deal 25 damage to them like they

16:47

just don't care you can go as

16:49

big as you want, and why not?

16:51

Like, this feels like the lesson to

16:54

me of Zenith abilities is like, why

16:56

not just go that big? There's no

16:58

reason not to. You can just... The

17:01

only reason not to would be if

17:03

it felt really out of tone, you

17:05

know, like, in a really realistic down-to-earth

17:08

spy game, maybe it doesn't make sense

17:10

to go this over the top, but

17:12

like, the only limit is your imagination.

17:15

Right. I mean like that's kind of

17:17

the the thing right like Zenith Beats

17:19

allow you to just go all out

17:21

because you know that like this is

17:24

the end for your character. Yeah, yeah.

17:26

They give the player permission to be

17:28

like, I'm taking over, you know, I'm

17:31

blowing up my character to achieve a

17:33

certain end and I'm going to just

17:35

be able to like give it my

17:38

all here in the last bit and

17:40

like, because I think, you know, heart

17:42

is at its core a bit of

17:45

a trad game, right? You are still

17:47

doing dungeon crawling. You are still managing

17:49

resources, you know, you are still getting

17:52

into combats, you are still getting into

17:54

combats. to other similar Trad games, it

17:56

is hard to give your character a

17:59

satisfying arc in a game like that

18:01

because like you know I mean obviously

18:03

I'm thinking of Dungeons and Dragons right

18:06

but like when you die in D&D

18:08

like you usually don't get to have

18:10

a cool last stand moment you just

18:13

kind of eat it yeah and I

18:15

think it is so important just to

18:17

be like no I'm gonna I'm gonna

18:19

be fit but I'm gonna be fit

18:22

in the sickest way imaginable yeah I

18:24

think there's several really really

18:26

interesting things going on there if

18:29

your goal is to tell a

18:31

cool story and to like get

18:33

into emotions and feelings and character,

18:35

then I think a really really underrated,

18:37

under explored, under mechanized, undervalued

18:39

thing is to think about

18:41

character arc well in advance

18:43

to sort of set up

18:45

at the beginning, what is

18:47

my characters art going to

18:50

be about? And not necessarily

18:52

how is it going to

18:54

resolve, right? Like I think

18:56

it's telling that every... calling

18:58

every character has two different

19:00

potential zenith beads that are

19:02

sort of diametrically opposed to

19:04

each other. They're two different

19:06

answers, yes and no, to an

19:08

underlying question that your character is

19:11

gonna be about. And like establishing

19:13

that question up front is super

19:15

powerful because then the whole time

19:17

you get to play towards answering

19:19

that question for yourself. Right. But

19:21

it's also the case that. the

19:24

zenith abilities are an incredible carrot

19:26

to get you to do that.

19:28

Because I think not everyone understands

19:30

or feels up front that like

19:32

playing towards a question like that

19:35

is gonna be a reward unto

19:37

itself. That like when you pair

19:39

it with this reward of, and

19:41

when you do answer that question,

19:43

you're gonna get to turn into

19:46

a train is really cool. And

19:48

then the last sort of like

19:50

revolutionary. Idea I think is that

19:52

it's actually a carrot to die

19:54

in this game like people

19:56

are so ready to fucking

19:58

die like play years come into

20:00

heart, like I cannot wait to die

20:03

by turning into a train. And that's

20:05

something that feels really counterintuitive to

20:07

like what we think of

20:09

normal Dungeons and Dragons being where

20:11

people are so precious with

20:13

their characters. I mean like that's

20:15

kind of tying into that annihilation touchstone we

20:18

talked about earlier right which is like if

20:20

you think of heart as like kind of

20:22

a horror game right then okay yes you

20:24

go in knowing that your character is just

20:26

a bag of meat and bones that it's

20:28

going to be you know rent us under

20:30

you know at the end of this narrative

20:33

yeah but like if you are going in

20:35

with that intention and being like okay but

20:37

I can make that choice about when that

20:39

meat gets put through the grinder and like

20:41

I can do it in a way that

20:43

is fantastic and fits the tone of the

20:46

strange world. I think that's a really

20:48

big incentive to be like, okay, yes,

20:50

I'm gonna be fit, but like, I'm

20:52

gonna do it and I'm gonna make

20:54

it weird. And that's so fun to

20:56

be like, you know, this is a

20:58

horror story, but I am in control

21:00

of when the slasher finally cuts my

21:02

throat. Yeah, and like guarantees. that you're

21:04

not going to simply be fit in

21:07

D&D terms, right? We're not going to

21:09

just like get a series of Nat

21:11

One's and then like I guess I'm

21:13

dead now and like that sucks like

21:15

you're always going to get to go

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today. A

22:04

thing I want to talk about

22:06

with this is the process of

22:09

handing control over the narrative to

22:11

the players, like as a dungeon

22:13

master, I think people are nervous

22:15

to do this. Like I remember

22:17

being early in my DMing

22:19

like Dungeons and Dragons career

22:21

and just, you know, players,

22:23

like I have this very vivid memory

22:26

of being in college and playing

22:28

in a game and my girlfriend

22:30

at the time wanted to

22:32

narrate like running over the tops of

22:34

pews in a church and like using

22:36

some special elephant ability to treat difficult

22:38

terrain of pews as like not difficult

22:40

terrain and I was like you can't

22:42

do that because that's about nature and

22:44

like pews aren't nature and like you

22:47

whatever and then you know we had

22:49

a little fight about it and I

22:51

was sitting at home being like but that

22:53

rules actually like why would you not just

22:55

like let them do that's such a cool

22:57

little action moment like why wouldn't you do

23:00

that and I think D&D doesn't

23:02

encourage that, right? Like D&D does say like

23:04

you have to do these things at the

23:06

right time and it's sort of like cool

23:09

to be able to turn into an animal,

23:11

but also you can only do it a

23:13

couple of times per day because balance and

23:15

also like the DM and the rules get

23:18

to say all these restraints around how you

23:20

do the thing and I think that there

23:22

is something really valuable and energizing

23:25

to players. about just like allowing

23:27

them in on that process of

23:29

like letting them take ownership and

23:32

like get in there and fucking

23:34

rocket and take over the game.

23:36

Right. And I mean, part of that is

23:38

just like Dungeons and Dragons play culture is

23:40

always like DM, you know, is God, etc.

23:42

And, you know, in our sphere, it seems

23:45

like we're definitely getting away from that kind

23:47

of like refereeing. But yeah, you know, at

23:49

the end of the day, right, I think

23:51

for people who know that like they want

23:53

to tell a certain kind of story, it

23:55

absolutely lends it to that more like cinematic

23:58

lens. And I think that's a great. right

24:00

to be like okay hey I trust

24:02

you enough with the culmination of your

24:04

character arc that I'm going to hand

24:06

you the big red button right I

24:08

think that's really useful and I think

24:10

it is as a hobby you know

24:12

a great habit to be like yeah

24:14

it doesn't have to be that deep

24:16

the GM doesn't have to be the

24:18

person who you know makes all those

24:20

calls I think resistance system games come

24:22

into conflict in that they are still

24:24

very prep heavy games in that way

24:26

so like then it is kind of

24:28

like the hobby to create those cultures

24:31

of play where it's like, eh,

24:33

it's truly fine if the GM

24:35

isn't in control of narrative arcs.

24:37

And even if dice rolls seem

24:40

to be tending one way, you

24:42

still get to have say over

24:44

the final cut. Yeah. But

24:46

being in conflict with prep

24:48

is a really interesting observation

24:50

there, that one of the

24:52

reasons it feels bad to turn

24:54

over. Control to players is

24:57

because you put all this work

24:59

into prep and I I don't

25:01

think prep is bad like I

25:03

think prep is really good in

25:05

a lot of ways But just

25:07

something to be aware of and

25:09

to like design around I think

25:11

like I think there are ways

25:13

to design games in which you're

25:15

doing prep or the game itself

25:17

has done prep for you and You're

25:20

sort of accounting for what are

25:22

the players giving control over and

25:24

what is going to sort of

25:27

remain canon? And like players I

25:29

think appreciate that too, right?

25:31

Like it's easier to be given

25:33

narrative control when you

25:35

are giving bumpers guidelines a

25:38

box to have that control

25:40

inside. Right, and I mean that's that's what

25:42

I like about prep is that like it

25:44

does allow you to constrain the story in

25:47

some way And I think that's useful right

25:49

it kind of helps keep you on rails

25:51

parentheses positive Because it's like okay. Here's the

25:53

realm of possibility that this story is taking

25:55

place You know whenever I've run a game

25:57

where I haven't prepped as much I do

25:59

feel like I tend to get into

26:01

the sillier aspects and not stay within

26:04

the narrative tone that I want to

26:06

stick in. And I think that, you

26:08

know, especially in a game that is

26:11

as horrific and, you know, moody as

26:13

heart, it is useful to have those

26:15

constraints. But yeah, you know, like there

26:18

is just enough fictional strangeness in this

26:20

world that like you can kind of

26:22

get away from that and be like,

26:25

yeah, okay, I know we can improv,

26:27

the heart can do something weird and

26:29

it still makes sense. Right. It's elastic

26:32

before it breaks. I want to also

26:34

talk about this in, it's like a

26:36

mechanic, the core mechanic in Aagon second

26:39

edition is a. resolution mechanic where basically

26:41

every action is a group action everyone

26:43

is probably participating and then anyone who

26:46

fails at the action narrates first how

26:48

their failure goes and then you like

26:50

culminate into the successes and then whoever

26:53

rolled best gets to sort of like

26:55

put the cherry on top of succeeding

26:57

at the end and narrating how this

27:00

goes is always turned over to the

27:02

players and my experience there is that

27:04

people fucking love narrating their fuck-ups. Like

27:07

they love their own failures. And that

27:09

felt like a huge lesson to me

27:11

that I also see present here, right?

27:14

Like even as you have this giant

27:16

moment of success, right? We talked about

27:18

this. It's exciting to then die afterwards.

27:20

And I think that's surprising. Like I

27:23

think people don't realize that. until they're

27:25

at the table, like just how much

27:27

fun it is to take your character

27:30

and be like, oh no, trouble. But

27:32

when you have control over it, you

27:34

get to sort of be the arbiter

27:37

of that trouble. You get to make

27:39

sure that nothing doesn't happen to them

27:41

that you're not really excited about. That

27:44

feels counterintuitive and worth saying. Yeah. And

27:46

I mean, I think that's also useful

27:48

in a way, especially when you are

27:51

the GM and like, oftentimes, right, because

27:53

of the way that falloutouts work in

27:55

this work in this game, you are

27:58

the one who is penalizing your players.

28:00

And sometimes those fallouts are constrictive, right?

28:02

And they take away the verbs that

28:05

you can do, which sucks to be

28:07

in a position where it's like, well,

28:09

I'm inside out for three hours, so

28:12

I'm just gonna like get on my

28:14

phone for a bit while my organs

28:16

leach into the dirt. But like, if

28:19

you are able to turn over that

28:21

control to your players, they will often

28:23

be like, okay, I'm inflicting this on

28:26

myself, and also they will often go

28:28

harder than that. they're going to be

28:30

like, okay, this is a little bit easier to

28:32

swallow because I'm in control, I'm making that choice.

28:35

Then it's like my idea that I get to

28:37

share with the table and not something that is

28:39

sort of unfairly happening to me. Yeah, another sort

28:41

of. Peace of this I wanted to

28:43

talk about is the connection between

28:45

Zenith Beats and the like basic

28:48

dungeon delving fantasy like the power

28:50

fantasy that I think comes from

28:52

D&D of like I want to

28:54

become a level 20 wizard and

28:56

be able to Turn myself into

28:58

a train and then run over

29:00

my enemies or like wish and

29:02

bring people back from the dead

29:04

or whatever kind of nonsense I

29:06

think that's sort of baked into

29:08

the dungeon crawler and is so

29:10

rarely realized in like proper Dungeons

29:13

and Dragons and it's really

29:15

cool that Hart does get

29:17

you there and in like

29:19

an achievable number of sessions

29:22

like six to ten sessions

29:24

and then like has this

29:27

annihilation style commentary around was

29:29

that good though actually? But even

29:31

even without that kind of commentary

29:33

I think it's just great that

29:35

the game lets you play that

29:37

part out instead of letting it

29:39

just sort of hang over you

29:41

as an aspirational future thing that

29:43

you'll ever get to unless you

29:45

buy more books. Right, yeah, like

29:47

because you don't have to play

29:49

a hundred real life sections to

29:51

get to that level 20, you

29:53

know, threshold, I think that's really

29:55

smart. Like on your episode about

29:57

prestige classes, you talk about how

29:59

like there is like an aspirational level to

30:02

being like even though this is like

30:04

many many many sessions away there is

30:06

still an opportunity for me to to

30:08

have this you know there there's text

30:10

in the book that says I can

30:12

do this cool ability that's really hard

30:14

to get to I'm gonna start working

30:16

towards that I think this is a

30:18

much more efficient way of being like

30:20

yeah here's an aspirational thing you can

30:22

do it's in here you can reach

30:24

your absolute power maximum but being able

30:26

to do that in like you said

30:28

you know six to 10 sessions is

30:30

super nice and it does let you,

30:32

you know, get through the like baby

30:34

adventurer phase where it's like, I have

30:36

a stick and I'm going out to

30:38

go fight crabs for, you know, a

30:40

day until you get to that final

30:42

God killing, you know, like Sethroth, final

30:45

battle where you get to do your

30:47

ultimate move or whatever. That's really cool.

30:49

And I'm glad that they've designed that

30:51

way in a way that lets you

30:53

actually make use of all the phases

30:55

of your characters, you know, levelingling. Yeah.

30:57

Even taking out the commentary on what

30:59

it means to get to this power

31:02

fantasy, it's fun to just get to

31:04

the power fantasy. And like there's something

31:06

special and nice about that. The commentary

31:08

around it is also explicitly commentary about

31:11

power fantasy, right? Is this, would you

31:13

actually want to be able to get

31:15

here? And I feel like that is

31:17

a much smarter and more reflective take

31:20

on this sort of classic, I want

31:22

to get as powerful as possible so

31:24

I can kill God kind of. story

31:27

Right like to get to that level 30

31:29

you are leaving the bones of a

31:31

hundred thousand goblins in your wake right

31:33

and I mean I think that thematically

31:35

works with the heart very well because

31:37

like the whole game is like you're

31:39

gonna lose yourself in pursuit of your

31:42

your dream and like that is a

31:44

very fun way to realize that thesis

31:46

is like yeah you can do it

31:48

and it also you know ruins your

31:50

life. Yep. Okay as much as we like

31:52

love Zenith Beats are there problems with Zenith.

31:55

It's like, are there drawbacks? Do you see

31:57

anything here that you need to be careful

31:59

about or that? is not functioning at

32:01

100%. So this is an insight

32:03

that comes from the Songfiel

32:05

post-mortem, and one of the

32:07

things that they were talking about in

32:10

Songfiel is like, very rarely did

32:12

they get to fire off those

32:14

Zenith abilities because nobody had taken

32:16

Zenith Beats ahead of time, right?

32:18

If you're reading the text rules

32:20

as written, you have to be

32:22

like, okay, hey GM, I'm getting

32:25

ready to die, essentially, I'm taking

32:27

a Zenith Beat, will be... difficult

32:29

to achieve. Let me find an

32:31

example. Yeah, we had that example

32:33

be truly absolved of your sins

32:35

by a higher power. Yeah, like

32:37

that's not like something that can randomly

32:39

happen, right? You kind of have to work

32:42

for that. Another one, become one with the

32:44

heart and bind your essence to it. Like

32:46

you can't just be like, hey, I'm going

32:48

to bind myself to the heart and then

32:50

after that we could all do like a

32:52

downtime, kind of work your way up to

32:54

that. And in that way, right, again, this

32:56

is a game that does kind of implicitly

32:58

ask you to do a lot of preparatory

33:00

work to build into that moment. And like,

33:02

you know, I think that how it in

33:04

Taylor would be like, you don't have to

33:06

do that. Just say, hey, I'm gonna be

33:08

ready to die. Go ahead and take

33:10

that zenith, be and fired off. Like,

33:12

I think they're probably much more relaxed

33:14

based on the tone of their designer

33:17

commentaries. Like, I think they're probably pretty

33:19

chill with you. You too have to do a

33:21

lot of work to build up to it.

33:23

I understand why you make that choice. I

33:26

understand why you would want to stick to

33:28

those rules because you do want it to

33:30

be satisfying. You do want to have earned

33:32

that climax. But it can be hard in

33:35

a campaign. You said you've played multiple campaigns

33:37

of this. How many people did end up

33:39

firing those moves? You know, it's been a

33:41

few years, so I don't remember the details

33:43

exactly, but my recollection is that a lot

33:46

of them did get to go off.

33:48

all at once in the last 45

33:50

minutes of the campaign, right? Right? Like

33:52

while you're fighting God, right? It's sort

33:55

of... The other thing I would say

33:57

about the sort of connection to the

33:59

Zenith. beats is like once you bind

34:01

your essence to the heart and become

34:03

one with it like then are you turning

34:05

into a train like come on bad like

34:08

you're one with the heart like now

34:10

you're a part of the part and

34:12

like your characters done I guess now

34:14

we have a cool little epilogue where

34:16

you turn into a train like a

34:18

lot of times it feels like the

34:20

zenith ability is the thing that wants

34:22

to happen right before the zenith beats

34:24

or to happen literally at the same time,

34:27

like immediately afterwards. And I think that was

34:29

often how things resolved. It's like, oh, you

34:31

come face to face with your God and

34:33

you've decided to kill them. Okay, you do

34:35

so by turning into a train and immediately

34:37

running them over. Yeah, and I mean like

34:39

I I understand why I think that's still

34:41

a good mechanic I think it is still

34:43

you know nice to be able to be

34:45

like it's the end of the campaign I've

34:48

been thinking about this all day like I

34:50

come home from working on like all right

34:52

yes finally I'm going to unload all my

34:54

debt onto this motherfucker and make him oh

34:56

everything in the whole world and harvest his

34:58

his sins like I think that's a fun

35:00

thing like as an anticipatory moment but yeah

35:03

I do feel like it does kind of

35:05

get packed packed into it into it. It's

35:07

the ar- of like, well, I've saved up

35:09

all these potions throughout the entirety of the

35:11

campaign. Yeah. And now I have 12 million

35:14

Phoenix Downs here when I'm fighting, you know,

35:16

the last boss. It's like, that's too many

35:18

actually. Yeah. But I mean, it is actually,

35:20

it's fucking cool to be like, okay, we

35:22

go into the fight with the last boss

35:25

and then like, instead of a long. for

35:27

our grind session, it's just like you turn

35:29

into a train and I don't pull my

35:31

debt on him. Right, like we're gonna do

35:33

all these things like back to back to

35:36

back to back and then it's just

35:38

kind of fucking over. But like, it's

35:40

not just kind of fucking over because

35:42

you get to do all those cool

35:45

things. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I

35:47

mean, like that's true of any game

35:49

that gives you abilities that are limited,

35:51

you're always going to save them until

35:54

the end. Yeah, really like I think

35:56

Zenith abilities just rule, like any kind

35:58

of skepticism from the past like minute

36:00

of us talking is like more I think

36:02

connected to the beat system and maybe that

36:04

means that this is a good time to sort

36:07

of transition into talking about the beat system

36:09

and some of the skepticism and trouble that

36:11

I had with it there. So let's get into

36:13

that next time on Dice Explorer but thanks for

36:15

being here for part one and we'll have

36:17

you back next week Aaron. Yeah looking forward

36:19

to it. All

36:23

right everyone, I think I'm gonna stop doing

36:25

homework assignments here This was a fun experiment,

36:27

but the practice hasn't really felt inspiring to

36:30

me If you miss them, let me know

36:32

or maybe I'll just throw them in here

36:34

occasionally Better yet come up with your own

36:36

homework assignments. Come on down to the Dice

36:38

Explorer Discord and tell me all about it

36:41

Thanks again to Aaron for being here. You

36:43

could find his video essays on YouTube at

36:45

AA Voit You can support his work on

36:47

patreon and he's on Blue Sky at AA

36:50

Vo As always, you can find me on

36:52

Blue Sky or on the Dice Explorer Discord.

36:54

You can find my games at S. Dunwall.

36:56

Itch.io. You can follow, Kitz me if you

36:58

can, a new Romcom game I'm crowdfunding this

37:01

summer on Kickstarter now. Our logo was designed

37:03

by Sporgery. Our theme song is Sunset Bridge

37:05

by purely gray. And our ad music is

37:07

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37:09

thanks to you for listening. I'll see you

37:12

for listening. I'll see you next time.