0:15

Pushkin. As

0:21

a happiness expert, I'm used to speaking pretty

0:24

openly about my own wellbeing. I

0:26

often feel questions about my mental health from

0:28

journalists, fellow podcast hosts, and fans

0:30

just like you. I'm happy to share

0:33

the things that I use to improve my well being.

0:35

But there is one comment I sometimes get

0:37

in conversations like these that does bother

0:39

me a bit. Laurie. Some interviewer

0:42

will say, I bet you never struggle

0:44

when it comes to improving your own wellbeing. I

0:48

guess, is my usual answer. But

0:50

that's not strictly true. So

0:53

it's time to come clean on this one. You

0:55

see. I am an expert in positive psychology,

0:58

and over the last few years, I have made a lot

1:00

of behavioral and mindset changes to improve

1:02

my own happiness. But there

1:04

are still many many things that I struggle

1:06

with. Just ask the people who

1:09

know me best.

1:10

I think it's a really bad idea to talk about this stuff.

1:12

Why because you think I'm really

1:15

bad at happiness?

1:16

No, I think it's I think you put yourself under under

1:18

so much more pressure and feel so

1:20

much worse about it than other people.

1:22

This is Happiness Lab co writer and producer

1:24

Ryan Dilly. You don't get to hear Ryan's

1:26

voice a lot on the show, but he's the brains behind

1:28

a lot of the stuff you hear on this podcast.

1:31

I've learned so much about happiness from doing this show,

1:33

and I've tried to put it into practice, But

1:36

like, I'm much nicer to myself about

1:38

it than you are. I mean, you know, you think that you have

1:40

to be better than anybody else of this because

1:42

you're the teacher, and it's just a high

1:44

bar for yourself.

1:46

But Ryan's not just my partner in all things

1:48

happiness lab. He's also one of

1:50

my oldest and dearest friends.

1:52

Isn't how we met quite a boring story. We

1:54

met through a friend of a friend.

1:55

I know that we've known each other for like twenty

1:58

six years.

1:59

More than half my life, and that's telling it how old

2:01

I am now.

2:03

And that means he understands my happiness struggles

2:05

very very well, because as my good

2:07

friend and podcast works back, he

2:10

often has to put up with them.

2:11

You could have put on mind too.

2:13

When I beat myself up about some small mistake

2:15

on the show or get sad about a negative review,

2:18

Ryan gets stuck managing my emotional slump

2:20

when I ignore pretty much everything I know about

2:22

the importance of time, affluence, and totally overschedule

2:25

myself. Ryan puts up with my growing sense

2:27

of overwhelm and when my stress levels

2:29

hit the red zone because I haven't put into practice

2:32

nearly any of the research I talk to you about on the

2:34

show. Ryan deals with the consequences.

2:36

You've got such a busy life and you've got so much stuff

2:39

going on, and so many people like look to you

2:41

as a kind of example, and that must be really,

2:43

really hard.

2:44

I really want to get better about practicing what I

2:46

preach. So in this new season of The Happiness

2:49

Lab, things are going to get personal. Over

2:51

the next few episodes, I'll be exploring the happiness

2:54

challenges that I struggle with the most, things

2:57

like navigating stress and overwork, dealing

2:59

with boredom, and even facing my

3:01

own mortality. This is for a whole

3:04

episode about is it a natophobia.

3:07

Oh, fanatophobiaobia?

3:09

Because I have really terrible an antiphobia.

3:11

I'm like really spooked about death. And

3:14

in this first episode, I'll be exploring something

3:16

that bothers Ryan a lot, my

3:18

habit of continuously beating myself

3:21

up about well pretty much

3:23

everything.

3:24

I mean, you have to do everything perfectly.

3:26

Everythden's going to be ten out of ten with you. Sometimes

3:28

it's not possible, but it's so hard to watch.

3:31

You're horrible to yourself sometimes.

3:34

Ryan's right here. I hold myself to

3:36

a very high standard, and I constantly

3:38

worry about whether I'm doing a good enough job,

3:41

whether that's in my podcasting, my teaching,

3:43

my research, my social life, everything.

3:46

Really, I hate doing anything that

3:48

I'm not immediately good at, and I

3:50

often wind up feeling paralyzed whenever

3:52

I mess something up. I

3:54

know full well that these harsh standards aren't

3:56

good for my performance or my well being.

3:59

So in this episode, I'll explore how perfectionists

4:02

like me can fight the fear of not being good enough.

4:04

Is there a way we can drop all the impossible

4:07

standards and quit beating ourselves up

4:09

so much? Our

4:12

minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy.

4:15

But what if our minds are wrong? What if our

4:17

minds are lying to us, leading us away

4:19

from what will really make us happy. The

4:22

good news is that understanding the science of the

4:24

mind can point us all back in the right direction.

4:27

You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor

4:29

Laurie Santis.

4:36

My name's Thomas Current. I'm an associate professor

4:38

at the London School of Economics.

4:40

Scientists often joke that all researches

4:42

mesearch, and I'm wondering if this is something that

4:44

applies in your case to your study of perfectionism.

4:47

Absolutely, I am a perfectionist

4:49

and I have been for a long time

4:51

and someone I struggled with.

4:54

In his book The Perfection Trap Embracing

4:56

the Power of good Enough, Thomas explores

4:58

the many misconceptions we have about our

5:00

society's favorite flaw, as he calls it,

5:03

starting with the idea that only certain people

5:05

fall prey to it.

5:07

We tend to talk in very sort of black and white terms

5:09

about you know you are you aren't a perfectionist,

5:12

And the truth is that most of us, when

5:14

we look in the mirror, will see elements of perfectionism.

5:17

A second misconception is that perfectionism

5:19

is a single trait that plays out the same

5:21

way for everybody. It isn't. It

5:24

has at least three different dimensions,

5:26

ones that differ in their severity from person

5:28

to person. The first is self

5:30

oriented perfectionism. These

5:32

are the high standards that we impose on ourselves.

5:35

This is often what we're thinking of when we say this, somebody

5:38

is a perfectionist. But there's a

5:40

second part of perfectionism, which is other

5:42

oriented. Perfectionists sometimes

5:44

hold other people to the same insanely

5:46

high standards that they expect of themselves.

5:49

Like, if I'm going to put myself through the ring

5:51

for this high standard or goal or

5:54

expectation, then you

5:56

must have to do that too, because

5:58

that's only fair.

5:59

But Thomas says there's a final dimension of perfectionism

6:02

that psychologically speaking, is the most

6:04

insidious, That is socially

6:06

prescribed perfectionism. We assume

6:09

other people expect us to be perfect.

6:12

Yes, perfectionists have exceptionally high standards,

6:14

we know that, but that's only part of the story

6:16

because what we really need to unpack is why they're

6:18

doing that. And why they're doing that is

6:20

to meet the validation and approval

6:23

of other people whom they think are viewing

6:26

them harshly and watching them for every little

6:28

slip up and mistake.

6:29

I know just how crappy this dimension

6:31

of perfectionism feels that constant

6:34

worry that the people around you are judging not

6:36

just your work but also your worth, that

6:39

sense that I need to monitor what people think of

6:41

my podcast or my research or my looks.

6:43

That uneasiness of always being on the defensive,

6:46

that feeling really sucks. But

6:49

where do perfectionist beliefs like these come

6:51

from? Thomas says the answer can be summed

6:53

up in just one word, fear.

6:56

The reason why we feel self conscious

6:59

as perfectionists is because we're so worried

7:01

about what other people think, and if we revealed

7:04

too much of ourselves then we might

7:06

slip up, or we might show a chink in the armory

7:08

is reflection upon us as a person that we're

7:11

not good enough, that we're not perfect enough,

7:13

and that in some way we should

7:15

have been or could have been more.

7:17

This is one reason Thomas thinks of perfectionism

7:19

as less of a personality trait and

7:21

more of an anxiety management strategy.

7:24

Perfectionists set themselves incredibly high

7:26

standards because they're worried if

7:28

they don't, someone will spot all

7:31

they're hidden inner defects, and

7:33

as I unfortunately know very well, when

7:35

perfectionists actually do screw up, that

7:38

internal anxiety goes into overdrive.

7:41

So they feel a lot of shame and embarrassment, painful

7:43

shame and embarrassment, and intense shame

7:45

and embarrassment, and the trepidation

7:48

is so fierce sometimes that

7:50

they can be overwhelmed by

7:52

anxiety. And this is very common

7:54

in perfectionists. They are very self

7:57

critical, very harsh on themselves

7:59

when things have gone wrong, because again, it goes

8:01

back to that core deficit belief inside

8:04

deep down, they know they're imperfect.

8:07

But if being a perfectionist feel so miserable,

8:10

why don't people set more realistic standards

8:12

for themselves.

8:13

People who struggle with perfectionism don't

8:15

see perfectionism the problem. Quite the opposite.

8:17

Actually, they see perfectionism as the

8:19

one thing that's holding them up in the world,

8:21

whereas everything and all around them seems

8:24

to be collapsing. The challenge there is

8:26

to bring people around to the awareness that it

8:28

is actually the perfectionism that is the

8:30

root of the problem. It's something that's

8:33

causing profound distress.

8:35

I've seen the consequences of this distress,

8:37

not just in my own life, but also in the

8:39

academic community around me. I

8:42

can be pretty harsh on myself, but I'm not

8:44

half as mean as my Yale students are to themselves.

8:47

They're hyper ambitious, hyper anxious,

8:49

and deeply self critical. They beat

8:51

themselves up about not finding the perfect relationship

8:54

or an amazing internship, or getting top grades.

8:57

I mean, I've watched pupils have panic attacks

8:59

after earning a single B plus on some random

9:02

quiz. It's heartbreaking to see

9:04

that pain. And my experience at Yale

9:06

isn't unique.

9:07

I was getting a lot of students come in for help

9:09

on their coursework or their grades

9:12

or how to improve. That's quite routine,

9:14

but more and more as seeing students come

9:16

with real profound struggles

9:18

that quite transparently came from self imposed

9:21

pressures that they were placing on themselves. So

9:23

that was really the spark for me to

9:25

try to understand, all, is this something that's increasing?

9:28

Because I suspect from what I can see

9:30

that it might be, but we don't have any data.

9:33

We don't know.

9:34

Thomas tracked down every paper published

9:36

since the eighties in which young people had

9:38

filled out a survey on perfectionism, more

9:41

than forty thousand data points across three

9:43

countries to see if rates had

9:45

increased, and he found that they

9:47

very much.

9:47

Had, and that's cause for concern.

9:50

The average level of perfectionism in the young

9:52

shot up thirty three percent since nineteen

9:54

eighty nine. But there's one form of perfectionism

9:57

that's skyrocketing even more than the others.

10:00

It's that social element of perfectionism that's really

10:02

taking off among young people. They really

10:04

feel high precious to be perfect

10:06

from the outside world.

10:08

So what's pausing this. Well,

10:10

culprits like Instagram and Facebook might

10:12

be to play it.

10:13

People within social media see

10:16

images are perfection all around them. They take

10:18

those images at face value and feel

10:20

themselves to be inferior. And

10:22

those expectations, in turn, are

10:25

being internalized by young people's perfectionistic pressures,

10:27

and it's highly pressurized, very

10:29

insecure in it never really stops.

10:32

When Thomas first published his findings in twenty

10:34

nineteen, he was taken aback by

10:36

the sheer level of interest in the topic.

10:39

I've got the media officer from the university

10:42

desperately emailing me at twelve

10:44

o'clock at night with all these requests

10:46

from the international media. We wanting to know what's

10:48

happening. And clearly it struck a

10:50

nerve. Clearly people feel

10:52

like perfectionism is something that's becoming much

10:54

more prevalent in their own lives and the lives of other people.

10:57

I think it's something you know as a society

10:59

we really need to start grappling.

11:00

With But how do we all come to

11:02

grips with it? Well, we'll start

11:04

by learning from a recovering perfectionist.

11:07

My ruthless self careticism was just

11:10

weighing me down that whole time. It was like

11:12

these heavy weights tied to my ankle, and if

11:14

I could learn to release them,

11:17

not only would I be just as successful as

11:19

I was, I would be even more so because

11:21

I would be liberating myself from

11:23

really like the jail cell that my terror

11:26

of failure was keeping me in.

11:29

The Happiness Lab continues after the

11:31

short break, Little

11:38

Jordana was this totally wacky,

11:41

free spirit creative. Jordana

11:44

Confino fondly remembers the days

11:46

before her perfectionism too cold.

11:48

I just would spend all of my

11:50

time making up shows and things like that,

11:53

and just really living in my own fantastic

11:56

fantasy universe.

11:58

Little Geordana never gave a second thought to her

12:00

grades or her academic performance, but

12:02

all that changed when she turned fourteen.

12:05

My dad actually got really sick, and all

12:07

of a sudden things started happening that were scary

12:09

and upsetting, and lots of people in my family

12:12

were upset and I couldn't do anything about

12:14

it.

12:14

But Jordana eventually discovered one thing

12:17

she could do to make her family happier.

12:20

I could come home with these really pristine

12:22

report cards, and my parents were excited and happy

12:25

and relieved, And that was like what I

12:27

could do to seemingly make things better.

12:29

In the years that followed, Jordana engrossed

12:31

herself in her schoolwork and especially

12:34

her grades.

12:35

As long as I worked hard enough, I

12:37

could perfect them. And that was really what I

12:40

committed to doing.

12:41

From the outside, Jordana looked like the picture

12:43

of the happy, successful pupil, but

12:45

on the inside she was a mess.

12:48

I was so sad,

12:50

and I was so insecure, and I was so

12:52

lonely. And this is because if

12:55

you want to get literally perfect grief,

12:57

you have spend a.

12:58

Lot, a lot, a lot of time throwing yourself

13:00

into it.

13:01

And it got to this point where my whole

13:03

identity at that point was completely

13:05

bound up in my ability to perfect

13:08

this one. And so because

13:10

my entire feelings of self worth run the line,

13:12

I threw everything into it.

13:14

Jordanna graduated valedictorian of her high

13:16

school class. She nailed her college applications

13:19

and got into her top choice school, Yale

13:21

University. Her family and friends

13:23

were thrilled, which was kind

13:25

of sad. Jordana's insanely

13:27

high standards were harming her, but her perfectionism

13:30

was being reinforced and rewarded.

13:32

In college, Jordana's overwork grew even

13:35

more extreme. Achieving perfect grades

13:37

in the IVY League was much harder than in high school,

13:40

so Jordana spent every waking hour

13:42

working.

13:43

I was the loneliest person on the planet and it

13:45

was just so tragically misguided.

13:48

I was having no human contact.

13:50

I didn't go outside for ten days once

13:53

before final exams.

13:54

That sense of isolation also pushed Jordana

13:57

to cast a perfectionist eye on her peers.

13:59

She grew judge of her fellow students, who

14:02

never seemed to work as hard as she did.

14:04

My college sophomore year dorm was right across

14:06

from Ashley's ice Cream with the famous

14:08

Yell ice cream place, and I would watch people

14:11

like going out for ice cream with their

14:13

friends on Friday or Saturday night, and I

14:15

would just think, like they are so weak,

14:18

and like I thought that I was so

14:20

superior because I was willing

14:23

to do the work that they weren't. I must care

14:25

more, and therefore I would do better.

14:28

But yet again, Jordana's harsh standards

14:31

appeared to be working. She graduated

14:33

top of her class and went on to Yale

14:35

Law School.

14:36

I mean, if five minutes went by before I was

14:39

working, after I woke up in law school,

14:41

it was like, you're weak, you're slothsful, you're lazy,

14:43

you're not good enough. You're the only one who doesn't deserve

14:46

to be here. Everyone's going to find out.

14:48

She then graduated at the top of that class

14:50

too, and followed it up by walking in

14:52

one of the most prestigious legal clerkships

14:55

in the land, but she didn't enjoy

14:57

any of it.

14:58

With each additional achievement,

15:00

I actually grew more and

15:02

more anxious because the

15:05

second that I approached success

15:07

or got it all of us and I would panic

15:10

because then the bar was just set

15:12

higher, and it was an even higher

15:14

bar that I would have to clear in order

15:16

to not be a disappointment.

15:19

Take for example, the time Jordana got her

15:21

paper accepted to the world's top law

15:23

journal.

15:23

There was not more than one second

15:26

of actual happiness or celebration

15:29

before the panic set in and literally,

15:31

the thought that went through my mind and I remember this was

15:34

well, what am I going to do next so that they don't call

15:36

me a one hit wonder?

15:38

The constant self criticism made or Dana

15:40

miserable, but she just couldn't

15:42

bring herself to stop all those skathing critiques.

15:45

One of thought that they were fact, and two

15:47

I thought that they were helping me and those

15:50

thoughts were the things that were driving me to

15:52

succeed. And that's why for so long

15:55

I was so reluctant to

15:57

give up on those thoughts.

15:59

The constant need to be seen as uber,

16:01

competent and superhuman meant that Jordana

16:04

put herself forward for any and all job

16:06

opportunities.

16:07

There are no boundaries for the perfectionist

16:09

people. Please, aren't you give every ounce

16:12

of yourself? And what happens

16:14

when you do that is everyone

16:16

else is thrilled because they're like, great,

16:19

you know, we didn't have time to do all these things because

16:21

we have families and other priorities.

16:23

But Jordana can do it, and she's she's

16:25

excited. Look at her.

16:26

She's volunteering. And the more and more

16:28

you do that, the more insecure

16:31

you grow, because you're just convinced

16:33

that your value is

16:35

contingent on you saying yes all

16:38

the time.

16:39

But there were a few things that Jordanna did

16:41

say no to. All the stuff that's

16:43

essential for work life balance and mental

16:45

health. She neglected social connection

16:48

and all elements of rest and fun. And

16:50

when she did go out to get fresh air or to get

16:52

exercise, she still couldn't set

16:54

her work aside.

16:55

I literally had a laptop tan

16:58

on my thighs because I would let myself go

17:00

outside but only if I was

17:03

doing work. Similarly, I would let myself go

17:05

to the gym, but only because I downloaded

17:07

the notability apps so that I could documents.

17:10

On the treadmill. Like this was my

17:12

version of work life balance.

17:14

You might be amazed to learn that Jordana was

17:16

in a relationship throughout this time. Her

17:18

boyfriend came a very distant second

17:20

to her legal work.

17:22

He lived two blocks from my apartment, and

17:24

I saw him on Saturday

17:26

nights between like eight pm and eight

17:28

am on the next day, and the same

17:30

on Friday nights.

17:32

Perhaps unsurprisingly, Jordana developed

17:34

a host of serious health issues once

17:36

her doctors just couldn't figure out and

17:39

what her body was suffering was nothing compared

17:41

to what was going on in her mind.

17:43

It just felt really bleak,

17:46

and I felt really trapped.

17:49

One afternoon, while yet again working at

17:51

home alone, Jordanna finally

17:53

realized that she needed some help.

17:55

I was just desperate at the time,

17:57

and I was googling how

18:00

to be happy. One of the first

18:02

things I found was Gretchen

18:04

Rubin's book The Happiness Project, and

18:06

so I read that and she starts referring

18:09

to this thing called positive psychology, and I had

18:11

never heard about positive psychology before.

18:14

I remember thinking,

18:16

I hope this isn't one of those things that you have to really

18:19

believe in for it to work. I

18:21

was so, so, so skeptical, but

18:24

I was just desperate.

18:25

Jordana soon learned about the importance of social

18:27

connection and engaging in work that fits

18:30

with your values, and she made some

18:32

real changes as a result. She left

18:34

the stressful law job she didn't enjoy and

18:37

retrained as a wellness specialist to help law

18:39

students.

18:40

But I did not touch

18:42

the perfectionism at that point.

18:44

I did not touch the workaholism at

18:46

that point, and I was doing work that

18:49

actually imbued me with a sense of meaning and purpose.

18:51

I was leaning into my relationships more so,

18:53

in that sense, it was better, but I was still tearing

18:56

myself to shreds on the inside.

18:58

Ironically, Jordana began spending her

19:00

days helping law students to feel happier

19:02

and fight their self criticism while

19:04

holding herself to impossible ideals.

19:07

Like how many people go into their job

19:09

interview and when you're asked what your weakness

19:11

is, you go, oh, well, I'm a perfectionist.

19:14

When we say that, because we're proud of it, we think that

19:16

it's a strength. Eventually, someone

19:18

else noticed how hard Jordana was pushing

19:20

herself. One of my former bosses called

19:23

me into her office one day, and I thought

19:25

that it was because I wasn't taking enough

19:27

student appointments.

19:28

I was convinced that she was calling in to read me

19:30

out.

19:30

I was convinced I wasn't doing enough, and really

19:33

she was sitting me down to say, Jordana, are

19:35

you okay?

19:36

You look like you're running yourself ragged.

19:38

Jordana's therapist, it turns out, couldn't

19:40

have agreed more.

19:41

She said, Jordana, if you had a

19:43

racehorse that had just completely

19:45

broken down from injury and exhaustion,

19:48

would you just keep whipping it to try

19:50

to get it up and to move faster,

19:53

and I said, of course not,

19:56

And she said, then why are

19:58

you doing that to yourself?

20:00

That racehorse analogy was life changing.

20:03

Jordana finally saw the futility of

20:05

her perfectionism.

20:07

It was never just going to stop.

20:08

There was a always going to be the next

20:11

thing if I didn't

20:13

do something different, because it always

20:15

felt like just clearing one more

20:17

hurdle would then.

20:19

Free me up to live the life that I

20:21

wanted.

20:22

And then you know, one hundred and fifty hurdles later,

20:24

you realize, wait a second, maybe

20:26

that's not going to happen unless I do something different.

20:29

So what exactly did she do differently?

20:32

She'll tell us when the happiness lab returns

20:34

in a moment.

20:40

I think the problem with perfectionism is

20:42

that it doesn't even feel like a choice.

20:44

It's just the necessary course.

20:47

Recovering perfectionist Jordana Confino

20:49

has spent the last few years learning to reject

20:52

the exacting standards she judged herself

20:54

by for decades.

20:55

And when I say rejected, I don't mean like, oh, yeah,

20:57

I conquered it and it's gone. I mean I committed

21:00

to work back against it every

21:02

day and not let it drive the car

21:04

and rule my life.

21:06

Now, a Fordham University law professor and

21:08

co coach, Jordana helps overachieving

21:11

professionals who struggle with perfectionism,

21:13

overachieving professionals just like

21:15

me. I'm embarrassed to admit how much of

21:17

myself I saw in Jordana's story. I

21:20

too have a terrible time establishing boundaries

21:22

and saying no. I spend my days

21:24

teaching my students and podcast listeners to

21:27

be self compassionate while privately

21:29

beating myself up. If Jordana

21:31

was able to scale back her harsh standards,

21:34

maybe there's hope for me too.

21:35

I was so vicious to myself,

21:38

and I was so ruthlessly

21:40

self critical, and I believed so little

21:42

that this could work. And if it could

21:45

have that effect for even someone like me, I

21:47

truly believe that anyone is capable

21:49

of doing this for themselves.

21:51

So I asked Jordanna, what are the first

21:53

steps that a perfectionist like me can take

21:55

to become kinder to herself?

21:57

If you do a simple thought journal of just what

21:59

are the thoughts that are going through my head? What are the things that I'm

22:01

saying to myself? For me, it would be things

22:03

like you're not good enough, you're weak, you're

22:06

lazy, you're slothful.

22:08

Literally, it was so funny.

22:09

Words like gluttonous and slothful

22:11

would come up from my inner critic, and I'm like, swear,

22:14

I only have heard those words in Chaucer's Canterbury

22:16

Tales in like seventh grade, so it's just hilarious

22:19

to me that they had such an impact on my critic.

22:21

But you want to recognize these phrases. You

22:24

want to think about what words do they use,

22:26

whose voice do they remind you of, so

22:28

that when they come up, you can recognize them

22:31

and then make a decision about how to respond to them.

22:33

Jordana also uses other creative ways

22:35

to visualize her perfectionist impulses.

22:38

So I've actually found it even really helpful

22:40

to draw my inner critic. It

22:42

looks like this little green goblin that kind

22:44

of reminds me of the guy from the Musinex commercials.

22:47

So now when these thoughts come up,

22:50

I imagine this little green goblin on my shoulder

22:53

like squeaking these things at me, and my inner

22:55

critic is a very squeaky, annoying voice. But

22:57

that enables me to detach from the

22:59

thoughts and separate from them.

23:01

And once you begin to separate from that goblin

23:03

voice inside you, you can finally start

23:05

pushing back. You can grab your journal

23:08

and scribble down some bules to all your

23:10

nasty inner critiques, and when you write

23:12

those replies down, try not to match

23:14

your critics mean tone. Instead, use

23:16

as compassionate a voice as you can, treating

23:19

that inner goblin like a well intentioned but

23:21

utterly misguided friend.

23:23

Listen, I know what you're trying to do here.

23:25

You really really want me to do well.

23:27

You're trying to help, but

23:29

you're not. You don't meet it with criticism

23:33

or just rejected outright. You kind of greet

23:35

it with compassion and say, hey, listen, we're

23:37

going to try a softer approach here.

23:40

Pushing back on your inner critic is at least

23:42

initially very very hard, especially

23:45

when it's the only voice you've listened to for so

23:47

long.

23:48

When I first started practicing self compassion,

23:51

my therapist would say, talk to yourself

23:53

as if you were someone who unconditionally

23:56

loves and supports you, And I was like, I don't

23:58

even know what that feels like.

24:00

Jordana had been driven by her punishing perfectionism

24:02

through school and into the workplace. She

24:05

had to go back decades into childhood

24:07

to find a version of herself that was free from

24:09

the need to constantly perform at the highest level,

24:12

a version of herself she could be proud of and

24:14

kind to.

24:15

And so I picture that little creative,

24:18

free spirit, Jordana, and when I

24:20

look at her and when I imagine her, I

24:22

can talk to her in this way, like I do believe

24:24

that she is worthy of love for

24:27

just being who she is, and if

24:29

she makes a mistake, it is not because she is

24:31

a fundamentally unworthy person.

24:33

And that was actually a really good trick

24:35

for me to start practicing those

24:38

different ways of speaking to myself.

24:41

Hardcore perfectionists like Jordana won't

24:43

find the mental switch from criticism to compassion

24:46

easy.

24:47

I did not believe these thoughts at all.

24:49

It felt so forced

24:51

and faked and phony. When I took my

24:54

you are lazy and I replaced it with you

24:56

are doing great, You can do this compassionate

24:59

thoughts like that they felt like total bogus.

25:01

But the amazing thing about our brains

25:03

and neuroplasticity is that if

25:05

you practice thinking in a way

25:08

over time, and those new thoughts

25:11

will become stronger, and you'll see

25:13

them popping up versus plausible

25:16

alternatives to the vicious

25:18

thoughts, and then eventually they'll

25:21

just pop up as an instinctive thought.

25:24

The next step in perfectionism recovery is

25:26

to set healthier boundaries. That

25:28

inability to say no to extra work and responsibilities

25:31

is often rooted in our fears of not being good

25:33

enough and being seen as not being

25:36

good enough to fight these people

25:38

pleasing tendencies, we need to take a

25:40

good, hard look at what we miss out on when

25:42

we just say yes.

25:43

I've now recognized that there is a trade off

25:45

for every yes. For every yes I

25:47

give, I'm saying no to something

25:50

else. If I want to do the very

25:52

best at multiple things

25:54

that are important to me, I can't

25:56

just keep saying yes, yes,

25:59

yes.

26:00

But what are the practical steps we can use to turn

26:02

a yes into a no. It begins with

26:04

asking yourself specific questions whenever

26:07

you're attempted to sign on to something new. What

26:09

cost will agreeing to this task have on the people

26:11

I care about? And what am I saying

26:14

no to with my yes? But

26:16

we also need to explore the reasons we're tempted

26:18

to say yes to a potential ask in the first

26:20

place.

26:21

Why do I want to do this? Is my desire

26:24

to do this thing driven by

26:26

my values? Or is it driven by fear?

26:29

Jordana says questions like these have

26:31

helped her remember the social opportunity

26:33

cost of taking on too much, a problem

26:36

she had ignored for decades.

26:38

Told that it took earn the people that I love the

26:40

most is that they just got the leftovers.

26:43

They would get the shadow version of me once

26:47

I had given all that I had to give

26:49

to other people.

26:50

The boyfriend Giordana devoted so little time

26:52

to during her clerkship is now her husband,

26:55

and so to prevent her old perfectionist instincts

26:57

from harming her and her loved ones, Jordana

27:00

now uses a timeout strategy whenever

27:02

she gets a new request.

27:04

So I'm no longer allowed to just respond immediately.

27:06

I have to wait at least two hours.

27:09

During that period, I ask myself, one,

27:11

do I actually want to do this? Is this something

27:13

that's driven by excitement or by fear? To

27:17

What am I giving up if I say yes to

27:19

this?

27:20

Jordana now says yes only to projects

27:22

that improve her happiness, and that's made

27:24

the work she's done over the last few years much

27:26

more fulfilling.

27:27

It turns out that you're much better at your work when

27:29

you're not like beating the crap out of yourself.

27:32

But for all her progress, Jordana knows

27:34

her inner goblin voices haven't been banished

27:36

entirely.

27:37

Again, this is why my blog is called Chronicles

27:40

of a Recovering Type A plus perfectionist.

27:43

It's a daily practice of keeping them

27:45

in check. But that act of keeping

27:47

them in check is Oh, It's just makes

27:50

such a world of difference in terms

27:52

of your ability to live your life in

27:54

a joyful way.

27:58

I wish I could say that making this episode has fully

28:00

cured me of all my own harsh standards,

28:03

but sadly, perfectionism recovery

28:05

doesn't.

28:05

Work that quickly.

28:07

But there are at least some people who I've

28:09

noticed that I've been making some progress.

28:11

I think you're doing much much better. I mean, I'm just

28:13

glad you've kind of confronted it, I mean,

28:15

bring a name to it.

28:16

Even since chatting with Jordanna,

28:19

I have begun noticing all the mean stuff

28:21

I say inside my head, and I've

28:23

totally taken on her suggestion to

28:25

the social opportunity costs of my

28:28

usual anxious yeses. These

28:30

new strategies have begun helping me to set

28:32

new boundaries, which has made a huge

28:34

difference in my sense of overwhelm.

28:36

You'll always be a bit of a perfectionist, by

28:38

at least you're dealing with it now, which is like,

28:41

so much better than before.

28:44

Making this episode has also given me a healthier

28:46

attitude as I turned to the other happiness

28:48

challenges I'll face this season. I've

28:50

promised myself that I won't go all perfectionist

28:53

when it comes to addressing my well being struggles

28:55

over the next few episodes, because

28:57

as much as we'd love it, change doesn't

28:59

happen overnight. But with the right strategies,

29:02

hopefully we can all start taking some compassionate

29:04

steps in the right direction. In

29:06

the next episode, I'll tackle another factor

29:09

that I struggle with, the act of

29:11

not doing stuff. Will explore

29:13

why a constant workaholic like me should embrace

29:16

the power of boredom. We'll hear about

29:18

the benefits of feeling bored and

29:20

learn some strategies for enjoying our empty

29:22

moments in a healthier way. You answer these

29:24

statements from one highly disagree to

29:27

seven I really agree. In

29:29

situations where I have to wait, such as in

29:31

a line, I get very restless. It

29:34

seems that the same things are on television or

29:36

movies all the time.

29:37

Seven that one be sure.

29:39

I am good at waiting patiently.

29:41

One pretty bad.

29:43

All that next time on the Happiness Lab

29:46

with me, Doctor Laurie Santos