0:02

more.

0:08

Hey everybody, welcome to the

0:10

writing room podcast. I'm so glad

0:12

that you're here. This is a

0:14

fun time for us to introduce

0:16

you to people that are just

0:18

rocking our lives with the books

0:21

that they're writing, the things that

0:23

they're making. And we've got Mike

0:25

Naraki with us today. You may

0:27

know him as Larry the cucumber

0:29

for veggie tails. And I bet

0:31

Mike you probably get that all

0:33

the time, but The more important

0:35

thing I want to talk about

0:37

is Dead Sea Squirrels. I want

0:39

to talk about the new things that you've

0:41

got coming out. So along with my co-host,

0:44

Kim here, we're just so delighted to be

0:46

with you today. Well, Bob, Kim, thank you

0:48

so much for having me on. I'm thrilled

0:50

to be here. Yeah, tell us a little

0:52

bit about who you are and some

0:55

of your background. Before we jumped on,

0:57

I have to tell you, I brought

0:59

grandson number one on to just hear

1:01

Mike for a second and he was

1:04

just blew his mind because he's like,

1:06

thank you for your kindness. So tell

1:08

us a little about for people that

1:11

haven't been exposed to you, Mike,

1:13

what is it that you're about

1:15

in some of the history of

1:17

how you've gotten to what you've gotten

1:19

to what you're doing? right now?

1:21

Yeah, yeah. Well, man, if I back

1:23

up way back, you know, I

1:25

went to college thinking I was

1:27

going to be a pediatrician. I

1:30

wanted to do that. I did.

1:32

Pre-med, I was a bio major,

1:34

picked up history as a second

1:36

major just because I love that

1:38

as well. Working my way through

1:40

college, I worked in video post-production

1:42

where another friend of mine, Phil

1:45

Visser, also worked. He and I

1:47

had done some performing together, some

1:49

puppetry, you know, back in the

1:51

mid-80s. We were in Chicago as

1:53

computer animation and a lot

1:56

of the new technology was

1:58

just emerging with nonlinear. editing

2:00

and kind of the modern production

2:02

tools. You know, so I was

2:04

working in, I was working in

2:06

production to pay my way through

2:09

school, but we cooked up this

2:11

idea for telling stories with really

2:13

simple characters with no, no hair,

2:15

no limbs, and no clothes using

2:17

computer animation. That became, that became

2:19

vegetales. And so. So I, you

2:21

know, put, I put, you know,

2:24

medical school on hold, and we,

2:26

we made our first episode, Where's

2:28

God When I'm Scared, in 1993,

2:30

shifted off to 500 people who

2:32

had ordered VHS copies from ads

2:34

that we had taken out in

2:36

Christian parenting magazines, and one of

2:39

those orders came from a record

2:41

label that was just launching a

2:43

kids kind of tile here in

2:45

Nashville, and they signed us on

2:47

to a distribution deal, and We

2:49

started making veggies and it took

2:51

off and I ended up on

2:54

my business card read writer director

2:56

cucumber for about 25 years. We

2:58

went through a number of changes

3:00

as a company were acquired by

3:02

Dreamworks and then ultimately Universal now

3:04

owns the intellectual property. I left

3:06

in 2016. Our business model was

3:09

built off of you know, home

3:11

video and people stopped buying DVDs

3:13

a long time ago. And so,

3:15

so I left in 2016 and

3:17

tried to figure out, okay, what's

3:19

next? And I started developing an

3:21

idea that I had had kicking

3:24

around in my brain for a

3:26

number of years. And the general

3:28

thought was, what if Insino Man,

3:30

you know, sort of Insino Man

3:32

meets the Dead Sea Scrolls, it

3:34

would bring a character from the

3:36

first century into the modern day.

3:39

And so the bad pun, Dead

3:41

Sea Squirrels was the next to

3:43

pop into my... mind. And so

3:45

I developed that as I initially

3:47

thought of it as an animated

3:49

series, but then a friend of

3:51

mine in the public publishing industry

3:54

asked me if I had ever considered

3:56

it as an early reader series. And

3:58

so I thought, well, that's an interesting.

4:00

idea and so I went away and

4:03

read a bunch of captain under pants

4:05

and diary of the would be would

4:07

be kid books. Totally. familiar with myself

4:10

with the format and I put a

4:12

pitch together. You set up a pitch

4:14

with Tyndale publishing out of Chicago. They

4:17

loved it and I started writing the

4:19

books and so I've done a I've

4:21

done 12 books are out right now

4:24

and it's a it's a kind of

4:26

a serialized so it takes it's a

4:28

larger story that takes place over 12

4:31

books and it wraps up at book

4:33

12 and I've left a little bit

4:35

of room to go for other books

4:38

and I've signed a and I started

4:40

writing those. So yeah, so I've just

4:42

been. writing and just having so much

4:45

fun with developing that world and those

4:47

characters and then got the opportunity to

4:49

do a pilot animated series a number

4:52

years ago with a friend of mine

4:54

Steve Taylor who we both know so

4:56

Steve is actually producing the show we

4:59

did a pilot then raised the money

5:01

for the whole series and now the

5:03

series is now yeah so it's a

5:05

yeah so I'm so excited and you

5:08

know it's it's been nine years since

5:10

I've you know directed my last Vegetails

5:12

episode, but it's taken a long time,

5:15

but I'm finally excited to release the

5:17

squirrels into the wild. That's so great.

5:19

I mean, Mike, I have to tell

5:22

you, I'm a mother of three children.

5:24

You are the soundtrack of my raising

5:26

of them. In fact, I texted all

5:29

of them. They're all. grown mostly now

5:31

and I texted them this morning I

5:33

was like not to flex or anything

5:36

I get to talk to Larry the

5:38

cucumber today and they're in awe of

5:40

me not always are they in awe

5:43

of me but you're making you gave

5:45

me street credit today I have to

5:47

ask you out to the steward kids

5:50

there you go guys get over it

5:52

thank you that's awesome I have to

5:54

ask you about the writing piece of

5:57

all of the different genres that you

5:59

just mentioned. You've written books, TV, movie.

6:01

You've done a lot of different spots.

6:04

And so I know there are folks

6:06

who are listening who are thinking, how,

6:08

what are the connective threads to writing

6:11

a great story in all of those

6:13

spaces? What are some things that you

6:15

always are thinking about, whether you're writing

6:17

an early reader or the, I guess

6:20

do you call it the script, the

6:22

script, the screenplay? I don't even know

6:24

the words. Yeah, so what do you

6:27

infuse every time that makes for a

6:29

good story? How can you help us

6:31

with that? Yeah, you know, the first

6:34

thing that come to my mind are

6:36

character, you know, characters that are really,

6:38

you know, interesting and relatable. And then

6:41

theme would be right after that. And

6:43

I think particularly in the kids' space,

6:45

because what I tend to do is,

6:48

you know, very, very theme-based and very

6:50

lesson-based, but hopefully that comes out of

6:52

story. It's not didactic kind of layered

6:55

on top of story telling kids, okay,

6:57

this is the theme, but building a

6:59

story where a theme can emerge that

7:02

is, you know, emotionally compelling and really

7:04

connects and you make a good. dramatic

7:06

argument, you say, okay, I've learned, I've

7:09

learned this lesson through the story that

7:11

I've watched and I've been entertained doing

7:13

it. So, yeah, so I think, yeah,

7:16

those two things, character and theme are

7:18

the things that I really, really concentrate

7:20

on. I really like the idea and

7:23

for people listening that have an interest

7:25

in writing, show, don't tell. So to

7:27

your point, Mike, that it points in

7:29

a beautiful direction, would you allow people

7:32

to discover that? People want to be

7:34

influenced, not controlled. And so I'm always

7:36

thinking, how can I influence them towards

7:39

it? Allow them to insert their story,

7:41

their lived experience, and it's odd enough.

7:43

a net that could catch all of

7:46

those and instead of telling them this

7:48

is what you need to take away

7:50

from that to just invite them into

7:53

it and they bring all their biases

7:55

and beliefs and faith is a big

7:57

deal for them they'll bring that and

8:00

if it's not and they'll bring that.

8:02

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. We talk here

8:04

a lot, Mike, about figuring out who's

8:07

in the chair. So when I'm writing

8:09

a book, I'm thinking I'm writing for

8:11

the guy at the tire store. Somebody

8:14

who had not self-identified. this way, but

8:16

they would be church adjacent. So they're

8:18

in the front row of the Baptist

8:21

church, they're not taking sniper shots at

8:23

people, like they're, they're just, they're keeping

8:25

faith a little bit at a distance.

8:28

The idea of faith matters to them,

8:30

but a little cautious about doing that

8:32

where it's kind of a group thing

8:34

kind of deal. So that's who I'm

8:37

writing to constantly, who is writing to

8:39

who you making your projects to? That's

8:41

such a great question. You know, I

8:44

feel like in some ways I'm writing

8:46

them. to myself, you know, and it's

8:48

like, oh, this is something that I,

8:51

this is a story that I'm enjoying,

8:53

that I'm getting into, that I find

8:55

funny, you know, I think ultimately, you

8:58

know, in the space that I'm in

9:00

with, with the kids' space, you know,

9:02

Vegetales, was kind of like a, you

9:05

know, four and, you know, four to

9:07

12 age range in the early reader

9:09

series I'm in now, is kind of

9:12

like the age range of, you know,

9:14

you know, and this, you know, difficulty

9:16

level. But I think, you know, moms

9:19

are kind of the gatekeepers, you know,

9:21

to that kind of content for their

9:23

kids. So I think for me, you

9:26

know, if I say, okay, who's, who's

9:28

sitting in the chair, who's the audience

9:30

that you have to, you have to

9:33

get past, I think it's, I'm a

9:35

pretty. conservative in terms of my, you

9:37

know, worldview and faith expression and all

9:40

that, I'm writing to somebody who isn't.

9:42

So yet, I know there'll be people

9:44

that are of time and cheek, I

9:46

call them like the scripture police that

9:49

would be like coming to say, hey,

9:51

this isn't accurate. I'm not giving that

9:53

a lot of attention. I want to

9:56

just do like a really fair job

9:58

of describing making things that are complicated

10:00

simple. I'm not trying to make it

10:03

easy because it's not. I'm trying to

10:05

make it simple because it is. So

10:07

how do you go through that process

10:10

as your... molding this, no, you're writing

10:12

it for mom, but it's got to

10:14

connect with kids. Like it's got to

10:17

ask mom's like approval, but it's got

10:19

to connect with a kid and kids

10:21

think differently than mom's sake sometimes. Yeah,

10:24

sometimes I think, but although I think

10:26

both moms and kids just love comedy,

10:28

they love fun, and I've always loved

10:31

writing, not necessarily writing jokes to kids,

10:33

it's almost like if a kid gets

10:35

it great, you know, if not, you

10:38

know, it's almost more important to me

10:40

that the adults find it funny that's

10:42

appropriate humor for kids. It's not nothing

10:45

off color, but, you know, if the

10:47

adults and if it's playing in the

10:49

adults are laughing, I'm perfectly content with

10:51

that, you know, you know, you know,

10:54

And so I think making and entertaining

10:56

for both is great. You know, for

10:58

me, the primary audience is Christian moms

11:01

in the sense that I'm writing thematically

11:03

content that's bibically based that a lot

11:05

of times has a very straightforward biblical

11:08

message. In the case of squirrels, you

11:10

know, Michael and his friends are going

11:12

through. you know, kind of issues that

11:15

that fifth graders go through dealing with

11:17

bullies. And so how do you how

11:19

do you deal with bully Murle and

11:22

Pearl will go back and in song,

11:24

you know, tell a snippet of the

11:26

sermon on the mount about, you know,

11:29

treating others how you want to be

11:31

treated, you know, so pulling in that

11:33

that specific biblical content to play the

11:36

theme that helps, you know, helps the

11:38

child resolve their problem within the story.

11:40

So first and foremost, it has to

11:43

be entertaining. It has to be compelling,

11:45

emotionally compelling for you to kind of,

11:47

you know, be interested in watching it

11:50

in the first place. But then if

11:52

a great theme can arise out of

11:54

that, if you can get that kind

11:57

of a ha and that pull the

11:59

heartstrings, you know, with that theme that

12:01

is emotionally true within the context of

12:03

the story, then I think moms, you

12:06

know, that's what's, you know, moms are

12:08

really going to find that important because

12:10

those are the types of values that

12:13

they want to pass on to their

12:15

their kids. I like how you create

12:17

safe spots when I did what Kim

12:20

did, which is tell my 30 something

12:22

year old kids that we be visiting

12:24

today. Everybody was like in a like

12:27

same tone. They're like, oh, I got

12:29

was like, this was my whole childhood.

12:31

I just came flooding back in and

12:34

no. What an honor and responsibility to

12:36

be a person that has that kind

12:38

of generational impact on people. Is that

12:41

a neat legacy? I mean, you're not

12:43

in a jar right now. We're not

12:45

talking about your beautiful life. We're just

12:48

talking about things you're doing right now.

12:50

You're creating these spots and you create

12:52

this collective like, oh, that guy. Oh

12:55

my goodness, it is an honor and

12:57

I do, you know, that phrase, you

12:59

know, Veggietails was my childhood, you know,

13:02

I hear that so many times. It's

13:04

amazing. I mean, and just to know

13:06

that, you know, the work that you've

13:08

done has had that kind of an

13:11

impact on somebody's life and can, you

13:13

know, kind of generate that awe, you

13:15

know, sensation, it's just, it's an honor.

13:18

And I'm just, you know, so thrilled

13:20

to have been able to do that

13:22

in my career. It's kind of funny

13:25

to over the arc of time, I'll

13:27

meet somebody who seems like, you know,

13:29

full on adult like way 30s, and

13:32

they talk about some, oh, I remember

13:34

reading one of your books when I

13:36

was in junior high. Yes. Oh. I

13:39

remember reading that when you were cool.

13:41

I'm like, damn. That train left the

13:43

station. Kim, when you're crafting, because you're

13:46

both a novelist and also write, you

13:48

know, just books kind of memoir style,

13:50

what are the things you're thinking about

13:53

that have kind of overlaps into Mike's

13:55

world and what he's doing, even though

13:57

you are speaking to a different audience?

14:00

Yeah, I love what you were saying

14:02

Mike about looking for theme, but not

14:04

letting theme be something you hit over

14:07

the head of the reader. Yeah. That's

14:09

sometimes, particularly in faith circles, I think

14:11

sometimes we have such a strong desire

14:14

to say the things that are important

14:16

to us, which is great. That's a

14:18

healthy and noble thing. But if our

14:20

lesson or, you know, we're not writing

14:23

a fable. Right, so we're not, we're

14:25

not, it's, I think that we get

14:27

into trouble when we let the theme

14:30

boss us around. So in other words,

14:32

when the story becomes second and the

14:34

theme becomes first, then we should be

14:37

preaching. And that's not what I'm doing.

14:39

I'm hopefully writing a story or creating

14:41

something really compelling that helps people move

14:44

into this space and as you've done

14:46

so well with all of the content

14:48

that you've created in the shows and

14:51

the characters you've created. I just want

14:53

to hear Larry talk about. his hairbrush.

14:55

And then later I realize, oh, there

14:58

was some really, there are some, there

15:00

are levels there. I'm learning a lot

15:02

about a lot of things. So I

15:05

love it that you said that out

15:07

loud and I would agree with that.

15:09

Bob, I think what you do as

15:12

well, Bob, you do this so well,

15:14

is to entertain and to not diminish

15:16

the importance of entertaining. There's a really

15:19

beautiful thing that happens and we're all

15:21

laughing together or feeling something or crying

15:23

about something. We need that as human

15:25

beings. So that's super important. I used

15:28

to be in a writers group that

15:30

there were the I. was beautiful words

15:32

and that is so important. Those are,

15:35

it's important to write beautiful words. But

15:37

somewhere along the line, somewhere I picked

15:39

up that beautiful words were more important

15:42

than a great plot or a great

15:44

story. And I'm happy to tell you

15:46

I don't think that anymore. Because really

15:49

you lose a reader. You can have

15:51

the most beautiful sentence, the most beautiful

15:53

scene, visual, anything. But if the story's

15:56

not sound, if I'm not being pulled

15:58

in, they're going to a lot. I'm

16:00

sure you see that a lot, Mike.

16:03

I mean, you work in a visual

16:05

arena. I always think that readers have

16:07

no attention span, but watchers don't either.

16:10

So do you feel kind of a

16:12

like, oh gosh, I gotta get to

16:14

the good stuff in that space, compel

16:17

them, entertain them, hurry up? Right, yeah,

16:19

yeah, and just, you know, pacing is

16:21

such an important thing, but you're right.

16:24

I mean, they've got to be emotionally,

16:26

you know, invested in the characters and

16:28

what happens next, you know, to kind

16:31

of keep them, you know, turning the

16:33

pages or... or keep watching. And you

16:35

know, what you're talking about, you know,

16:37

especially in the faith space, you know,

16:40

Christians have a long tradition and history

16:42

of the rhetorical argument, you know, in

16:44

sermons, you know, but what we're doing

16:47

as writers and filmmakers is we're making

16:49

dramatic arguments and it's a different thing

16:51

and it requires an emotion, it requires

16:54

the emotion to be true, you know,

16:56

into that sense of I feel that

16:58

this is true emotionally through the story

17:01

that I'm telling. you know plop words

17:03

or you know on top of that

17:05

and make it so the lessons are

17:08

great you know you can have you

17:10

can have a very true statement but

17:12

if it's not emotionally true within the

17:15

context of the story that you're telling

17:17

then you're going to get the eye

17:19

roll. That's good. For you writers that

17:22

are out there and aspiring writers I

17:24

think of watching ET when I was

17:26

a kid and they were trying to

17:29

get ET inside the house and they

17:31

put these little writ spits bets or

17:33

skittles or something and ET would shuffle.

17:36

his feet forward and reach out his

17:38

creepy little hand and then shuffle his

17:40

feet forward. And think about that in

17:42

your paragraphs and the pages that you're

17:45

right, that you need to have a

17:47

skiddle in there. There needs to be

17:49

something that somebody can reach out and

17:52

grab a hold of and shuffle their

17:54

feet three more feet into your book

17:56

or your mate or whatever. Do you

17:59

make that pass through that might, do

18:01

you just say, what gets them engaged?

18:03

What's the skiddle that I can put

18:06

in there? Right, yeah, that what happens

18:08

next, you know, you set up that,

18:10

you know, that question that you need

18:13

to answer, and am I am I

18:15

getting closer to answering that, that question,

18:17

that answering that, that question, that that,

18:20

that, compelling of, okay, how do you

18:22

set up, but I, a scene, so

18:24

it's different, you know, that's compelling things

18:27

forward. That's great. Last thing I want

18:29

to talk about is the people that

18:31

you surround yourself with. You've met Stephanie

18:34

who's out of the screen right now,

18:36

but Kim, Taylor Hughes, it's a small

18:38

group of friends that I. keep really

18:41

close to me. I know you have

18:43

Steve Taylor and another community, a smaller

18:45

community of people around you. Talk about

18:48

the importance of the people that you

18:50

travel with. Because when you said Steve

18:52

Taylor, I'm like, I knew I liked

18:54

you already. Know the people that are

18:57

friends with you, then I'm positive. I

18:59

like you. Tell me. No, I think

19:01

that's. I think that's so important to

19:04

find that tribe or that crew of

19:06

people that you can have the shorthand

19:08

with. And, you know, and I, the

19:11

folks that I've worked with over the

19:13

years, like Kurt Heineki, he's working with

19:15

me on music now on Squirrels. He

19:18

and I, you know, wrote all those

19:20

silly songs together, you know, I'm not

19:22

a musician, but, you know, I'm a

19:25

lyricist and I have a melody in

19:27

mind, so I take it to Kurt

19:29

and he makes it into a real

19:32

song. story and writing. songs with Steve.

19:34

Seth Worley is another guy who's come

19:36

alongside of us, just a great writer.

19:39

And there's a certain comfort there knowing

19:41

that, you know, I feel like I'm

19:43

I'm in Phil Visser, you know, with

19:46

with veggie tails. It's like we're on

19:48

the we're on the save wavelength in

19:50

terms of sensibilities for story and humor.

19:53

But yet, you know, maybe I'm thinking

19:55

I'm hilarious in my own mind, you

19:57

know, if I show it to them

19:59

and I don't get that same reaction,

20:02

you know, there's a trust there that's

20:04

saying, okay, well, maybe maybe I need

20:06

to, you know, and put it out.

20:09

there and oh no this is hilarious

20:11

and it's like okay this is good

20:13

but just sort of that that trust

20:16

to be able to say I this

20:18

needs to be better and I can

20:20

make it better or if I'm feeling

20:23

insecure it's like okay this is working

20:25

I know this is working because I

20:27

trust your sensibilities I think that's really

20:30

important in the people that you surround

20:32

yourself with. I was thinking about that

20:34

how your content is just so safe

20:37

for people they feel like they enter

20:39

into it in the safety of knowing

20:41

they're not going to be just entertained,

20:44

but they'll that there's something really beautiful

20:46

that comes and I draw direct connect

20:48

between that and having really safe people

20:51

in your life, having people who know

20:53

you who love you. I would say

20:55

that's that the thing that wouldn't be

20:58

maybe the first thing that an aspiring

21:00

writer is thinking about and so if

21:02

finds flood the zone with safe people

21:05

in your life and then create a

21:07

bunch of beautiful safe stuff. I love

21:09

that. I love that. No, that's that's

21:11

really beautiful. And, you know, just to,

21:14

you know, have, right, that safety to

21:16

be vulnerable as, you know, as a

21:18

creator, as a writer, to put things

21:21

out there that are, you know, you

21:23

know, emotionally true about you. But, you

21:25

know, it's, it's, it's hard to do

21:28

that with people you don't trust. So

21:30

it's, it's, it's super important. So, Kim,

21:32

I'll give you the last word. I'm

21:35

just so thrilled to just be sharing

21:37

this time with both of you guys.

21:39

What are you thinking, Kim? Well, I

21:42

feel like I've had the best dip

21:44

into 15 years ago. Just sitting here

21:46

and listening to has been so much

21:49

fun, Mike. I'm excited about Dead Sea

21:51

Squirrels, which is a very funny thing

21:53

to say. And I encourage all of

21:56

our listeners to say that phrase many

21:58

times today. Bob and I are really

22:00

just really grateful that you're making great

22:03

stuff and that you're putting it out

22:05

into the world. Yes for the kids,

22:07

but also for moms and for a

22:10

family. So we wish you Godspeed on

22:12

that. And for all the writers listening,

22:14

all the folks listening, wow, I've got,

22:16

you're thinking I've got this crazy idea.

22:19

You just heard. a professional cucumber man

22:21

voice. Talk to you about how crazy

22:23

ideas can be a legacy of great

22:26

stuff in families for generations. So this

22:28

is your day. Sit down and get

22:30

that dream on paper. We are all

22:33

waiting for it. Yeah, and if you

22:35

want to do a solid for somebody

22:37

that's an artist that's creating support artists,

22:40

go buy, go get a copy of

22:42

this stuff for yourself, but go get

22:44

10 copies for somebody else. It's not

22:47

about selling products and grapefruits and all

22:49

that. It's a way of saying yes

22:51

to people who are using their artistry

22:54

to create beautiful safe stuff in the

22:56

world. And that is a huge yes

22:58

vote to more of that. And so

23:01

run out, do that for. not only

23:03

yourself as a favor, but for some

23:05

other people, because know you're supporting a

23:08

bunch of artists that really deserve it.

23:10

Thank you, Mike. God bless you. And

23:12

everything that you do, give Steve Taylor

23:15

a big hug from all of us.

23:17

I absolutely will. This is my, this

23:19

is like, I have so much fun

23:22

doing podcast, but this one, you don't

23:24

know how. Oh, your kindness in 10

23:26

seconds to a six year old grandson.

23:28

I probably. feel same. You want

23:31

nice for me,

23:33

do it for my

23:35

kids. my kids. Oh yeah, yeah,

23:38

yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So

23:40

I I would leave

23:42

everybody listening with

23:45

that. You want to

23:47

do something nice, something

23:49

nice, do it for

23:52

your kids. And this

23:54

would be a

23:56

really neat thing to

23:59

do for your

24:01

kids. All right, you

24:03

guys, you've been listening

24:06

to The Writing

24:08

Room. the We'll see

24:10

you next year. see

24:13

And next year got a

24:15

book or two

24:17

in them. a book get

24:20

that one out

24:22

of let's right, one out of

24:24

you.