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.com. Erica Boseman, aka Bose,

1:01

is a Twitch streamer and YouTube

1:03

creator who covers true crime stories

1:05

and the psychology behind them. We

1:07

chat about how to spot the

1:09

subtle signs of various personality disorders

1:11

and potential for future criminal behavior,

1:13

how childhood experiences shape our tendency

1:15

to attract narcissists and other dangerous

1:18

personalities into our lives, and our

1:20

own personal experiences in escaping the

1:22

influence of those dangerous people. You

1:26

had mentioned something before about like

1:28

dangerous traits that possibly lead to

1:30

violence Like do you recognize traits

1:32

in men that like you think

1:34

like oh this person is potentially

1:36

violent like what's a red flag

1:38

to you? I think it's far

1:41

fewer than women notice for sure.

1:43

I think women are hyper attuned

1:45

to potentially violent men generally speaking,

1:47

but the only time where I do

1:49

is it's so obvious it's aggression,

1:51

cursing, short temperedness.

1:54

It's the ones that are just in

1:56

your face that person is ready

1:58

to hit something that I notice.

2:00

I do not

2:03

fear violence

2:05

in that way from... Oh, yeah.

2:07

This is why you haven't prepared for

2:09

how. This is why I haven't prepared for

2:11

serial killer stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me

2:13

what are you looking for and how are you

2:16

preparing for your serial killer? Why is that buddy to

2:18

you? This is very real Charlie. Yeah, I'm curious. Um,

2:20

okay. So, uh,

2:22

on my stream, we watched the show

2:24

a lot called I survived and it's,

2:27

uh, it's pretty grim, but you know,

2:29

it's people telling survivors, telling their stories

2:31

of how they, you know, survived

2:33

a near death or. We're

2:35

almost murdered. And the

2:37

number one way that people

2:39

survive a murder, or

2:41

an attempted murder, is playing

2:43

dead. It

2:46

is number one,

2:48

for sure. Yeah,

2:52

because it's interesting. The

2:54

human body can sustain a lot, okay? Like

2:57

you would think, okay, sorry, I'm getting

2:59

all grim here, but I talked about your

3:01

crime all day. You might think

3:03

like if you were stabbed 20 times, like

3:05

you're probably gonna die. Most likely you're not

3:07

gonna die, especially if they were like frenzied

3:09

stabbing, so they were not in major areas.

3:11

But also what I mean by like major

3:13

areas are like somebody could stab you like

3:15

arms, face, like neck, like everything they could do

3:17

it 20, 30 times and like you will

3:19

live. you gotta be

3:21

like, a lot has to happen. So

3:23

what happens is a lot of times if

3:25

there is like, if it's not a

3:27

crime of passion. Okay, all right, I'm gonna

3:29

explain some friends. But I know

3:31

we were like talking all psych, but like,

3:33

hold on, forensic time. So

3:35

if, or actually this is

3:37

a little psychology too.

3:40

So if somebody were to

3:42

find a person that had 70

3:44

stab wounds, okay, and they were all

3:46

upper body, like neck, face, something

3:48

like that, What does that say

3:50

to you just all for all firsthand? They're

3:52

trying to destroy them there. They

3:54

they're trying to delete.

3:57

Yes Like the face is

3:59

yeah, hate you. I hate you. I hate

4:01

you. I never want to see you again

4:03

Yeah, yeah, so we now know this is

4:05

not a random burglar This is like a

4:08

crime of passion. Yeah, this person knew them,

4:10

right? So now we've already just by looking

4:12

at the forensics We've already zeroed in on

4:14

a profile of who it may be interesting

4:18

but so not going to the crime of

4:20

passion and the more intimate one, but

4:22

let's say it's like a random burglar, right?

4:24

So they're not gonna stab you 20

4:26

times. They're not gonna stab you 50 times,

4:29

because they just are like, hey, I

4:31

want you to die so I can like

4:33

take this shit or whatever. They're probably

4:35

gonna shoot you once, maybe shoot you twice,

4:37

or stab you like three or four

4:39

times. Like, bro, honestly, most people will survive

4:41

a non... Majorly wounding like couple of

4:43

stab wounds or so but then after that

4:45

if people generally play dead The attacker

4:47

doesn't really come like they think like oh

4:49

you're dead or you're gonna die and

4:51

they'll kind of like you know go away

4:53

That's only for a random one. That's

4:55

if you're okay, so let's uh in terms

4:57

of survival Prior to the person has

4:59

stabbed you or shot you is there I

5:01

know the one that I've heard is

5:03

like never go to a second location Oh,

5:05

that's sort of that's like we mean

5:07

for like dates like for if a what

5:09

I've heard and I don't know if

5:11

it's true if your research shows this but

5:13

like if a man if you're a

5:15

woman and a man is like getting to

5:17

the car Oh, and you're like in

5:19

a somewhat area and there's people down the

5:21

road It is like you are better

5:24

off taking your chances Right there. Yes in

5:26

the semi public place before the second

5:28

location because once you're in a second location

5:30

then it's Yeah, absolutely and the reason

5:32

why the the get in the car, let's

5:34

go hear works is because, you know,

5:36

Ted Bundy did this, he would like bump

5:38

into women and then target the ones

5:40

that apologized to him first. because

5:42

so just like oh that's fascinating yeah and

5:44

so just like with the car get

5:46

in the car let's go here if the

5:48

woman were to get in that car

5:50

she is trusting this person more than she

5:52

trusts herself and your self -doubt has to

5:55

be on the floor to trust this

5:57

random guy yeah if i give him what

5:59

he wants then i will be okay

6:01

then i'll be okay then whole event he'll

6:03

stop yeah yeah and like it's Yeah.

6:05

And it's, it's taking advantage of vulnerable people

6:07

that are, um, that are just indoctrinated

6:09

with self doubt. And the fawn response is

6:11

he's looking for, he's looking for, I

6:14

bump into you. How do you deal with

6:16

conflict? And if the answer is I

6:18

apologize and fawn rather than retreat from you

6:20

or curse at you or, you know,

6:22

any of these other things, that's an interesting

6:24

one. I do think that I think

6:26

we all have all of them. What I've

6:28

been uncovering in my life is the. when

6:31

and where I have this fawn response, which

6:34

is, it's not in Ted Bundy's

6:36

situations or anything like that, but I

6:38

see this pattern of believing if

6:40

I'm nice, you won't hurt me. Yeah,

6:43

I have that one too. And let

6:45

me tell you right now, Charlie, that's the

6:47

dumbest fucking shit ever, because bro, the

6:49

nicer you are, the more people will steam,

6:51

roll you. I'm in my bitch era,

6:53

okay? I'm there. Well, all of them, all

6:55

fight, flight, freeze and fawn when they're

6:57

coming from a trauma response are just not

6:59

ideal to the circumstance, which you'd like

7:01

to be present to whatever's happening. But yeah,

7:03

I notice it in my business, like

7:05

when I'm firing people, I feel so, there's

7:07

a fawn response where I like, don't

7:10

want to fire them. And I feel sad

7:12

and scared that they're going to be

7:14

upset or retaliate or then go into the

7:16

business and they're going to destroy everything.

7:18

And so I'll try to make it last

7:20

for another month or two, even though

7:22

I'm dissatisfied with the work and convince myself

7:24

that other work isn't that bad. So

7:26

the reason that I think like the killer

7:28

stuff is interesting is because all the

7:30

patterns that are displayed by the victims and

7:32

the killers are things that I experience

7:34

in smaller degrees in my very normal life.

7:36

And that's why true crime is interesting

7:38

to some people. Some people see it as

7:40

just like, oh, you guys are listening

7:42

to this horrible murder. I did this show

7:44

called Sinister Each Week, and it's on

7:46

Fridays on my YouTube channel. But

7:48

I did this show Sinister Each Week,

7:50

and I... Anybody that watches that show

7:52

knows, they're 45 minutes to an hour.

7:54

I might talk about the murder for

7:56

five minutes. The whole show is about

7:58

childhood or situations of like how we

8:01

got to this point, you know? That's

8:04

what I'm interested in. Like, I don't,

8:06

yeah. Some people really think true crime is

8:08

just like, actually just... about the

8:10

most brutal fucking things ever even though

8:12

some it also depends like with the

8:14

ethics of like a true crime creator,

8:17

but tell me about the childhood So

8:19

is it the profile of the the

8:21

murderer in these cases or that you're

8:23

often digging into I know a little

8:25

bit about this, but but tell me

8:27

what you see is common. Let's see

8:29

What do I see that's common I

8:31

could share one though right off the

8:33

bat. Yeah. Yeah, give me one I

8:36

believe if it's like a male serial

8:38

killer like Charles Manson that the mother

8:40

is often someone who he witnesses experiencing

8:42

sexual violence. So like

8:44

men hurting the mother, the

8:46

mother's a prostitute, the mother's

8:48

something, he's got an abusive

8:50

stepfather, like that's it. Like

8:52

watching men hurt women at

8:54

a young age when it's

8:56

your mother tends to create

8:58

a tremendous amount of rage

9:00

and then that explodes. You

9:03

want to chew crime story? Yeah, please. I'll

9:05

try to make it under six minutes. Yeah.

9:08

Can I give you? Okay. I'm just going

9:10

to like ramble for a minute, but I

9:12

think you'll like this one. Okay. Okay. So

9:14

there's this kid. His name was James Marlowe.

9:16

This was like in the seventies or the

9:18

eighties. And when you're, when you're born into

9:20

the world, you, the standards are set for

9:22

you by your parents. Normalizations are

9:24

set for you by your parents.

9:27

So. by all accounts, whatever James

9:29

Marlowe's parents did would be the

9:31

box that he starts in, right?

9:34

So he was raised by a

9:36

single mother who was also a

9:38

prostitute. Yeah, it's so common, so

9:40

common. And also she was beautiful. I

9:43

think this is something that people

9:45

don't talk about enough because it's weird,

9:47

but when a guy has a

9:49

really attractive mom, it does something. I

9:52

don't... don't because once again, like I'm

9:54

not a guy. So there's certain things

9:56

where my brain just can't go there.

9:58

But I have noticed this, just men

10:00

that have really pretty moms, something

10:02

they develop some kind of trait.

10:04

But anywho, so James Marlow's mother, single

10:06

mother, prostitute, also hardcore drug addict.

10:09

I mean, he was raised by a

10:11

beautiful, lawless woman. And so this

10:13

is where his box starts. And I

10:15

mean, the world is nothing like

10:17

the world that this mother is about

10:19

to show him, you know? So

10:21

that's already fucked. But James has a

10:23

sister too, a younger sister, and

10:25

the mom is so into drugs and

10:27

you know, whatever. She's constantly having

10:29

dudes over at the house, fucking them

10:31

in the house. And then also

10:34

stealing money from the clients in front

10:36

of James, like telling James like

10:38

this is just the way the world

10:40

works. You know, he was hearing

10:42

his mom like have sex on a

10:44

regular basis. And then sometimes she

10:46

would just abandon him for these drug

10:48

benches. But no matter what, James

10:50

always wanted his mother like. All

10:52

he wanted was for her to come

10:54

back and even later in like court

10:57

documents his sister noted like I knew

10:59

mom was crazy that she was a

11:01

bitch but James loved his mother like

11:03

so dearly so eventually she leaves for

11:05

like a year and he goes to

11:07

stay with his dad for the first

11:09

time and for some reason his dad

11:11

hates men. This is another really weird

11:13

rare trope. Sometimes there's mothers that hate

11:15

women and then they have daughters and

11:17

then they treat them like shit and

11:19

they put their sons on a pedestal

11:21

but even rarer but very real are

11:24

men that don't trust other men that

11:26

have sons. When

11:28

James goes to stay with his dad,

11:30

he's wildly abused. His dad would literally put

11:32

him in a cabinet, put fucking spoon

11:34

through the cabinet and just make James sit

11:36

there. Thus creating this freeze response that

11:38

he would have later in life because he

11:40

would spend hours under this fucking cabinet. So

11:43

anyways, James always just wants his mommy

11:45

and eventually mom comes back and he's

11:47

13 years old and he comes back

11:49

and he's living with his mom and

11:51

his sister and he's just so happy.

11:53

Like this is the interesting thing about

11:55

James. No matter how horrible his mom

11:57

was, He didn't have a barometer, and

11:59

he just wanted her love. And

12:01

so, you know, when he's 13, he's

12:03

at home one day, and she's

12:06

like, hey, I think you're old enough,

12:08

and she shoots him up with

12:10

heroin. And he tries heroin for the

12:12

first Early drug use is another

12:14

one. Yep. And then she... begins a

12:16

relationship with him. She molested him,

12:18

but they were having sex for, and

12:21

like I have to say, yes,

12:23

this is rape, but I'm saying like

12:25

they, she had groomed him into

12:27

this sexual relationship. So he's literally like

12:29

sleeping with his mom from 13

12:31

to 18 or 19. And then

12:33

he gets, is this interesting to you so far? I

12:35

mean, it's wild. This is

12:37

like fringe humanity stuff, but go ahead. No,

12:40

there's a lot of cases like this.

12:42

I'm just very familiar with this one. So

12:44

then James event, this was

12:47

also interesting. When James was

12:49

18, he eventually moves out and he

12:51

gets married to this woman. Marriage

12:53

only lasts two or three months, gets

12:55

divorced, and then he gets married again. And

12:57

then he gets married again. He had

12:59

six different marriages before he was even 24

13:01

years old. That's how much this woman

13:04

fucked him up, you know? And

13:06

then when he was in

13:08

his mid -20s, his mom abruptly

13:10

died in a house fire. She

13:12

was smoking a cigarette and

13:14

burned the whole house down and

13:16

she died. And

13:19

this, this is when James started killing

13:21

people. Because it was like all

13:23

of that rage that was sitting in

13:25

him from everything that his mother

13:27

did as he explored the world and

13:29

started to learn, probably started to

13:31

learn that what happened to him was

13:33

wrong, which we all go through

13:35

actually, you know. When

13:37

he started to realize this, I'm sure there

13:39

was a rage that was building, but he

13:41

never got to release it because his mother

13:43

died. And after that, he started abducting and

13:45

killing women with his girlfriend. Wow. I'm

13:49

sure there are many different prototypes,

13:51

but I do. Again, the

13:53

small personal version is the

13:55

unexpressible rage at the mother. I

13:57

think it's a very, very

13:59

common thing for men. And

14:02

it's this was this is the to

14:04

a hundred and infinity example, but it

14:06

is The smaller version of that it's

14:08

the it's the smothering. It's the too

14:10

closeness of the mother and or the

14:12

not close enoughness that is smothering you

14:14

because I love you. Yes. Yes. I'm

14:16

doing this for you and it is

14:18

love. Exactly. The lack of a tuned

14:20

love that becomes smothering that when you're

14:22

little, I experienced this and I think

14:24

someone do at least in my household

14:26

like rage at my dad existed. Like

14:28

we would go at it and fight

14:30

and sometimes I got spanked and that's

14:32

not ideal but the the anger

14:34

that I had for him was

14:36

available to me. I could find

14:39

it. I was not angry

14:41

in that way with my mom. And it's

14:43

only as I got later that I

14:45

started to do psychedelics and therapy and that

14:47

sorts of things that I could feel

14:49

for the first time the anger of like

14:51

the passive aggressive anger. The like, oh,

14:53

you're hurting me by not calling me. You're

14:56

hurting me by not tripping. The guilt tripping,

14:59

all of these sorts of things that I could

15:01

start to feel anger. about that sort of

15:03

stuff. It frustrates me about that. you say really

15:05

quick? It is so easy to not guilt

15:07

trip people. It is so fucking

15:09

easy. Like I've had lots of conversations

15:11

with you. I've never felt a moment

15:13

where I felt guilt tripped by you.

15:15

I would hope vice versa, you know?

15:17

But like, it's so strange to me

15:19

when I have conversations with people where

15:21

I am constantly being guilt tripped because

15:23

I have experienced how easy it is

15:26

to not guilt trip people. So like,

15:28

how is this happening? Well, I think

15:30

my limited understanding is that One particularly

15:32

men and women can do it But

15:34

it's a form of trying to get

15:36

your needs met that is more common

15:38

as a passive strategy And it's more

15:40

common women who are not encouraged to

15:42

directly go for what they want So

15:44

my mom grew up in a household

15:46

with nine brothers and sisters there was

15:48

not enough attention or time or stuff

15:51

to go around and Asserting yourself directly

15:53

to try to get it. She was

15:55

number seven of ten was like not

15:57

an option, you know, so the the

16:00

you're hurting me I'm sad you need

16:02

like we go and the family migrated at

16:04

any moment to the biggest crisis that

16:06

was occurring so if somebody was just regular

16:08

sad but somebody was sick or somebody

16:10

got you know like you had to go

16:12

to the the greatest need so the

16:14

way of getting your needs met became hurting

16:16

the most and so then you learn

16:18

not just to be hurt but to be

16:21

hurt at people right yeah and so

16:23

then instead of just being like oh man

16:25

I'm sad that you can't come which

16:27

can have like a Thank you,

16:29

I feel loved in that. Yeah, I

16:31

missed. It's like, oh, you're not going to

16:33

come. Oh, no, there's this. This

16:35

is going to affect me if you don't

16:37

do this. polling nature of it. And

16:39

so just like I've learned, just like you

16:41

can be angry at someone, you can be

16:43

sad at someone. And so there's I'm learning

16:45

today how to just be angry and how

16:48

to just be sad without pointing it at

16:50

a person and using it as a tool

16:52

to get them to give me what I.

16:54

Yes, 100 percent. And you know what? One

16:56

of the, I like that you said that

16:58

one of my favorite things that I've learned

17:00

in the past year is sitting in my

17:02

anger and sitting in my anxiety. I

17:04

used to, I was taught to swallow

17:06

my anger. I'm a woman. I can't

17:08

be angry. Of course I'm going to

17:10

be angry at stuff. Bad shit happens

17:12

to people all the time. You know,

17:14

it is nonsensical for me to swallow

17:16

my anger at every turn, right? Only

17:19

in the past year have I

17:21

learned that anger always passes. always,

17:23

but you know, bottling up emotions

17:26

and stress, it actually doesn't always

17:28

pass, but anger is incredibly fleeting.

17:30

Like, have you ever been mad

17:32

for three days straight? Only

17:34

when I don't feel it. Yeah, only

17:36

when I see. Yeah, so when it's,

17:38

yeah, seething last weeks, months, years, anger

17:41

is a small fraction of time and

17:43

it's actually really kind of beautiful when

17:45

you feel the anger and let it

17:47

exist and then let it, you know,

17:49

move on. I love sitting in my

17:51

anger now. I also love sitting in

17:53

my anxiety now. I mean, I know

17:55

it sounds corny, but I think it's

17:57

really beautiful now because I couldn't do

18:00

that before and I see how fruitful

18:02

the other side is. Well,

18:04

this is, you're reminding me, I'm learning about

18:06

my own fawn response. And I

18:08

think it's directly connected to what we're

18:10

talking about with anger, which is I

18:12

fawn because I'm disconnected from my anger,

18:14

which would help me draw a boundary.

18:17

And I fawn oftentimes in situations that

18:19

remind me of my mom. which is

18:21

somebody loves me. They work

18:23

at the big company. They're trying hard. They

18:25

want to be there. You know, they just

18:27

want to, they just want to, it's not

18:29

working out, but it's like, why can't, or

18:31

they've invited me somewhere and they're trying to

18:33

see me, but I don't really want to

18:35

go to, you know, like that's where my

18:37

font response is strongest. And it's because I

18:39

am not feeling anger because in the moments

18:41

when I did, and I would feel angry

18:43

at my mom as she, you know, was

18:45

coming for me trying to get love or

18:47

give love or anything. whatever happened

18:49

just did not feel good. And

18:51

so I'm learning, okay, when I recently

18:53

received, just I've received all the

18:56

time, invitations to go to dinner, invitations to

18:58

go here and I don't wanna go. Weirdly

19:00

enough, if I feel the anger of my

19:02

own violation of my boundaries is I'm like,

19:04

well, I could fit it in between six

19:06

and seven and I could, if I drove

19:08

there, I could do it. That helps me

19:10

just be way more comfortable saying no. Are

19:12

you comfortable with no, by the way? I'm

19:15

learning, I'm learning to be better with no's.

19:17

Yeah, I'm I think we'll also I have

19:19

a lot of social anxiety. Are you socially

19:21

anxious at all? I suppose,

19:23

you know, I've never I've never processed

19:25

it like that. I just went like,

19:27

I'll just learn this, you know, and

19:29

then I feel this I am I. I've

19:32

only recently learned I'm extremely socially anxious

19:34

and this is interesting because you're talking

19:36

about the fawn response, which I mean,

19:39

this is all about people. I thought

19:41

that social anxiety was like having stage

19:43

fright or being afraid to be out

19:45

in public or like being kind of

19:47

agoraphobic, but I've learned social anxiety is

19:49

really like, okay, how am I going

19:51

to be perceived? Do I

19:54

feel like being perceived this day? And did

19:56

every interaction go perfectly? It didn't go,

19:58

or is it going to go perfectly? And

20:00

what I'm like, oh my God, hated

20:02

me, and oh my God, I did this

20:04

wrong, and I didn't smile here, I

20:06

didn't introduce this person, or I didn't, you

20:08

know, and so I've learned that that

20:10

social anxiety, it's not just the party itself,

20:12

it's the stress that I feel deciding

20:14

if I'm gonna go to the party, and

20:16

then the reflection afterwards when I think

20:18

about how much of a piece of shit

20:20

I am. So. Oh, interesting. I, because

20:22

that's how Kurzman Command got built. That was,

20:24

was no one was willing to review it

20:26

as intensely as me and my co -founder Ben

20:28

were. Like no one would sit there and

20:30

dissect it. hour conversation. or

20:33

an hour interaction for the next three

20:35

hours and be like, well, if we've

20:37

done this and we've done that, if

20:39

that's if that's social anxiety, then it

20:41

is. It totally do. Yeah, it really

20:43

is. But see, you probably didn't think

20:45

of social anxiety as that before. And,

20:47

you know, I've also realized too, you

20:50

know, I was taking those introvert extrovert

20:52

quizzes for like years and I thought,

20:54

oh, I'm an introvert. Like, no, I'm

20:56

a fucking extrovert with social anxiety. And

20:58

it can be a little like lonely

21:00

at times because your social anxiety will

21:02

keep you from going to those things

21:05

that build community and also help you

21:07

push past the want for perfection. Like,

21:09

you know, I know you're a perfectionist

21:11

too, Charlie. Yeah. Yeah. And

21:13

like, you can't be perfect in

21:15

social interaction. So being a

21:17

perfectionist that is also socially anxious

21:19

and extroverted is like really a

21:21

disgusting puzzle. If you are also

21:23

dealing with this, you're in pain.

21:26

We're in pain. I

21:28

didn't, you know, I didn't know I was

21:30

a perfectionist until just a few weeks ago.

21:32

I told you were a perfectionist like a

21:34

few months ago. Yeah, I am. What was

21:36

hard about it? I'm a woman. Well,

21:38

because like I'll have stains. Yeah, yeah,

21:40

I'll have stains on my shirt and

21:43

I'll do things poorly. And I like

21:45

I'll there's areas of my life that

21:47

are just like sub average for sure.

21:49

Oh, for sure. But what it's it's

21:51

this social thing where I will pour

21:53

over if I was kind enough or

21:56

thoughtful enough or charismatic enough for ages

21:58

and ages over decades where I realize

22:01

and there's a part of my consciousness that

22:03

I'm learning to let sit. While I'm talking,

22:05

I'm thinking about how I'm talking, you know,

22:08

there's that very active commentary voice in my

22:10

head of like, oh, that was stupid. I

22:12

didn't know that that was perfectionist. I thought

22:14

that was like my helpful friend, like, you

22:16

know, helping me to a little buddy, but

22:18

you're a little buddy's little mean sometimes, aren't

22:20

they? They make you have a bad day

22:22

sometimes. like, well, yes, and it's the - And

22:24

you fond of that little voice, huh? Yes,

22:26

and you know, that's an interesting, yeah,

22:29

and it was, It's not perfectionist. He's

22:31

just pointing out the things that could

22:33

be better and There's value to that.

22:35

It helps me make good stuff. But

22:37

yeah, there's a there's brutality. Oh, you

22:39

also have a trait of rationalizing a

22:41

thing that's hurting you. Oh

22:43

Yeah, I haven't and so you're right.

22:45

There's a lot of and I guess

22:47

women too, but men perhaps in particular

22:49

I don't need to gender everything but

22:51

the the living in your head When

22:53

you're hurt deeply like that's

22:55

what you do as a guy you just

22:57

fucking cut off from the hurt and then you

22:59

go well I don't have a really good

23:01

reason to be hurt and it didn't hurt that

23:03

bad and like you know it's okay and

23:06

I think women probably cut off from anger like

23:08

I said well like what she said wasn't

23:10

that mean and like I can't be angry about

23:12

that so there's yeah different hurt is a

23:14

tough one for to feel sadness hurt yeah well

23:16

it's also it's also a hit to the

23:18

ego because it's a reminder that you are human

23:20

and you can be hurt and you can

23:22

be sad and you know you can be not

23:25

perfect. To me, the way I was raised,

23:27

I always had to be happy, otherwise it made

23:29

people uncomfortable. So when I'm

23:31

sad, I'm being imperfect and it's

23:33

fucking hard. Or when I'm angry, I'm

23:35

being imperfect. Like, dude, when I

23:37

was growing up, I had to go

23:39

to charm school. Did you really?

23:41

Yeah, I did. Wow, how old? I

23:44

don't remember exactly age, but I was very

23:46

young, like five, six, seven. Oh, wow, that's

23:48

young. Oh, yeah. To be a charming five

23:50

-year -old. Oh, Charlie, my life story will make

23:52

you throw up. Do you want

23:54

to do it? Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

23:56

I looked at the camera was like, no, no, no,

23:59

no, no, no, no. But yeah,

24:01

no. But so safe to say

24:03

that there was a performance pressure

24:05

at a very, very young age.

24:07

There was no expectation to perform.

24:09

It was just be happy otherwise. And

24:15

that's the thing, because you know what?

24:17

I feel like it's the same for

24:19

you. Be happy, otherwise, blank. What

24:22

is the blank? But it's terrifying,

24:24

and maybe it's the uncertainty that's so

24:26

terrifying. I hate uncertainty. Well,

24:28

I know what it was for me. And

24:30

it wasn't, in my case, malicious or anything

24:33

like that, but I'll just take my mom, because

24:35

I've been picking on her, and I love

24:37

her. If my mom is

24:39

just saying, you can only be as happy

24:41

as the kid who's the most sad. which

24:43

sounds like love, but is actually really difficult,

24:45

because it means if I'm sad, I'm hurting

24:48

my mom. Yes, I have one of those

24:50

exact ones. You know, my mom me. She

24:52

still says it to this day, and it's

24:54

like, I don't think she realizes how limiting

24:56

that is in terms of what I'm ever

24:58

going to show up and bring to you.

25:00

And there you go. You're welcome, mom. Now

25:02

you know. Dude, I got one for mine,

25:04

too. All right, bitch. No, no. My

25:06

mom would say I'm only happy if

25:08

you're happy. Yeah, which is wrapped up in

25:10

love and it feels like love and

25:12

oh my god She loves me so much

25:14

that she wants me to be happy.

25:16

Yeah, but now I have to be happy.

25:19

Otherwise my mom is sad or else

25:21

Yeah, so the the thing that has been

25:23

weirdly is it's been to be able

25:25

to be hurt and sad while people will

25:27

acknowledge it all for help but not

25:29

insist and just like okay Well, I'll be

25:31

okay, and you can just be lousy

25:33

is like what a fucking relief to have

25:35

to like share that I'm not feeling

25:37

well have someone respond compassionately I'm not yet

25:39

ready to come out of my shell

25:41

they're like I love you I'm here you

25:43

know and and I'm gonna go joyfully

25:45

exist yeah and to just be able to

25:47

sit here and be like oh my

25:49

god the world can move in a beautiful

25:51

way and I don't have to feed

25:53

the joy of the world yes is And

25:56

I remember the first time I experienced this,

25:59

I was like taking deep breaths while somebody was

26:01

just happy while I was miserable. And I

26:03

told them and they're like, well, thank you. And

26:05

I'm here for you. And I'm going to

26:07

go. This was in a psychedelic journey. It was

26:09

my girlfriend. She's like, I'm going to go

26:11

dance now. And I was like, oh. This

26:14

feels so nice. you

26:16

know what else? It's somebody trusting you

26:18

that you can handle your bad emotions, which

26:20

is a little empowering for people that especially

26:23

when they were raised to believe that they had

26:25

to lean on some other thing. But this

26:27

person is saying to you, I'm not going to

26:29

put pressure on you to get better right

26:31

now. I also trust that you can handle this

26:33

on your own. And I also trust that

26:35

if you need me, you'll let me know. That

26:39

trust is really important totally. Well, this

26:41

is the thing that I didn't I took

26:43

it personally You you make everything about you

26:45

as a child naturally, right? The story

26:47

you tell yourself of why your parents got

26:49

divorced or don't fight or everything is because

26:51

of me You know, it's because I was

26:53

a bad boy or whatever and if parents

26:55

reinforce that it's just double so that

26:57

My I didn't get that level of trust

26:59

that I could do it or it would

27:02

be okay if I had a problem the

27:04

reaction was Yeah, this this

27:06

seizing tension from my mom in particular

27:08

and I interpreted that I've only

27:10

learned again recently as I'm not trustworthy

27:12

like I can't rely on me

27:14

because she's reflecting to me that I

27:16

can't rely on me because there's

27:18

this grasping, grabbing terror that it's gonna,

27:20

I'll die. It's the or else.

27:22

He can't make this decision or else.

27:24

And so I find myself and

27:26

I have sought, like I would do

27:28

a video to 99 % and it

27:30

was my co -founder for a while,

27:32

it's my brother sometimes, but then

27:34

go, I don't think this is good,

27:37

can you check it? You know,

27:39

it's like, I'll do all of the

27:41

stuff that needs to be done

27:43

to pour over it, but I need

27:45

a co -signer for it to be

27:47

okay. And I'm learning like, oh

27:49

wow. That is a total

27:51

lack of self -trust like to do it

27:53

to do it to get it there and

27:55

then to have to need someone else

27:57

to say this is good This is okay.

27:59

This is acceptable is I can't find

28:02

if it's safe and good and acceptable in

28:04

and of myself So that's something that

28:06

I've been working on has been a business

28:08

limitation It's really tough and I mean

28:10

like this doesn't always happen in just parental

28:12

relationships It can happen in like high

28:14

school relationships. It can happen in like early

28:17

20s relationships, but if somebody can sew

28:19

enough doubt in you to trust yourself, then

28:21

you must trust them. And now it

28:23

makes them invaluable. And

28:25

sometimes most. Almost all

28:27

the times that somebody does that, it's not even

28:29

malicious. They just want to be needed so

28:31

bad and you're so susceptible to needing them. And

28:33

if they can just drive it a little

28:35

bit deeper, they can secure their spot and they

28:37

justify it because they think like, well, this

28:39

is good for them. Like this is what's best

28:41

for them. Like they need me, you know.

28:43

How do you see, do you have any examples?

28:45

I can think of some personally, I don't

28:47

mean to put you on the spot in your

28:49

life or in true crime stories of how. How

28:52

the things to look out for that might

28:54

be people sowing seeds of don't trust yourself

28:56

Versus because there's there's also this like feedback

28:58

that friends give each other if I don't

29:00

think that you're seeing like what how do

29:02

you distinguish between the two I've got one

29:04

because I actually recently was dealing with this.

29:06

I met somebody who turned out to be

29:09

a huge manipulator. And what's interesting is

29:11

this person was so dangerous. I didn't even take

29:13

the hook. I was like, I don't want to play

29:15

football on this. Yeah, this one

29:17

was too much for you. Yeah. But so some

29:19

of the early signs they gave, and I

29:21

mean, these are the very delicate ones before it

29:23

led to like, you just got to trust

29:25

me like over, I'll tell you about this later,

29:27

but over here, it was fucking wild. But

29:29

the early signs were I met this person for

29:31

the very first time. And when I left,

29:33

they said, I love you. And I

29:35

thought that this was weird. And

29:37

it kind of made me think, oh, am I like

29:39

not a girl's girl? Like, is this what girls

29:41

do? We say I love you the first time, but

29:43

I also thought, but I don't love you and

29:45

I don't know you, you know? felt that many points

29:48

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visitmo .com. I

30:53

felt guilty for not loving them back cause

30:55

they seemed to love me and they said

30:57

it. Yeah. And that is self doubt right

30:59

there. You were like, well, wait, do I

31:01

love them? But you know, straight up, I

31:03

know for certain, I do not love this

31:05

girl that I just met this day. But

31:07

the fact that I'm thinking I'm questioning myself

31:09

as a woman or I'm questioning myself as

31:11

a friend, you know, because of that. So

31:13

I meet them the second time and I

31:15

love you. Love you so much. And I

31:17

still didn't say it back. There's a bait

31:19

there. I've heard this one. It's it's baiting

31:21

the I love you too. Yeah, exactly. And

31:23

like, you know, when we got to this

31:25

point, I started to wonder, okay, one, is

31:27

this woman somebody that just doesn't. has been

31:29

taught for some reason not to value her

31:31

love. And she gives it away so freely

31:33

that she's just hoping for some back. That's

31:35

like the really vulnerable one. Or is this

31:37

somebody that is looking for people that are

31:39

so vulnerable that they need to be told,

31:41

I love you because they're in such a

31:43

low spot. Somebody offering that is like, okay,

31:45

I'll take that because I need it right

31:47

now. You know, so then the third time

31:49

we hung out and mind you, a lot

31:52

of other things happened, but these are just

31:54

my little red flag quotes, she said. something

31:57

else happened and I was like okay

31:59

you know I see you for like a

32:01

week or two and she said to

32:03

me oh my god don't worry we're lifetime

32:05

babe and I was like I have

32:07

met you three times and that was like

32:09

one of my like final with the

32:11

other surrounding things that I was like you

32:13

are you don't mean this you like

32:15

you You want to see if I'll take

32:18

the bait because that will show you

32:20

that I'm vulnerable right now and that I

32:22

need this love right now. Um, so

32:24

that type of behavior, it may seem really

32:26

mild, but it is very disturbing to

32:28

me. And some people may think of it

32:30

so innocently, but just to be frank,

32:32

you can't do that. You cannot tell people

32:34

that you met the first time ever.

32:36

I love you so much like for yourself

32:38

and for their comfort as well. Yeah. Yeah.

32:41

I think if I had to give a caveat,

32:43

I'd be like, if you're the Dalai Lama and you've

32:45

done all your enlightenment work and you say it

32:47

without any bait for them to give it back and

32:50

no expectation, now the self -trust thing

32:52

is you'll feel that. When you sit down with an

32:54

enlightened master and they look you in the eye

32:56

and they express love for you, you will feel that

32:58

they're not seeking anything from you. I agree with

33:00

that. But when you get that discomfort, you're like, oh,

33:02

am I a bad friend? Is there something wrong

33:04

with me that I'm not saying it? that's

33:06

the self -trust bit. Yeah, if

33:09

and I love you feels like there should

33:11

be a call and response there, then that's

33:13

weird. But if it feels like, because I

33:15

have had times where I've told people first,

33:17

like a friend or a person like, oh

33:19

my God, I love you. Hey, you don't

33:21

have to say anything. I love you so

33:23

much. I just want you to know that.

33:25

And when you're ready, like, or if you're

33:27

not, I don't care. But I have to

33:29

express this you. statement of fact rather than

33:32

a social tool. Yeah, yes, 100%. And like,

33:34

I'm glad that you get that, because see

33:36

how deep that is, but it seems like

33:38

just such a small gesture of love. Well,

33:40

this is the at. This is what I'm

33:42

learning about sadness, anger, and love, is that

33:44

if you're having an emotion at somebody, you're

33:46

doing it in order to. Yes. I'm sad

33:48

so that you. I am angry so that

33:50

you. I love so that you. And there's

33:52

a way to express all of those motions

33:55

that just is a fact. that my love

33:57

is a fact. My anger is a fact,

33:59

but my sadness is a fact. But if

34:01

there's a subtlety to this, all of those

34:03

can be expressed in a way that says,

34:05

and you don't have to do anything about

34:07

it. I am sharing my experience with you

34:09

and I'm not asking you to change. And

34:12

you can feel that when somebody who

34:14

is really clean with their emotional expression

34:16

does that. I'm learning increasingly to do

34:18

that. Totally. What traits are red flags

34:20

to you that are like that? Oh,

34:22

the... we also can I just say

34:24

this conversation is actually so juicy like

34:27

if anyone's like us or was raised

34:29

like us like we're fucking like this

34:31

is this is pertinent yeah, yeah Yes,

34:33

this was a big one This none

34:35

of this it needs to be nefarious

34:37

or ill intended, but it will turn

34:39

out badly is people who either position

34:41

themselves or allow you to position them

34:43

as middlemen for your contact to others.

34:45

It's the person that always, when you're

34:48

like, hey, we should do something together.

34:50

Like, oh, let me contact them. You

34:52

know what I mean? Like, oh, let

34:54

me, let me do that for you.

34:56

So I had this position in the

34:58

business that was, and I positioned this

35:00

person there. I was like, you're gonna

35:02

be the hub of, you know, the

35:04

employees talk to you. I've

35:07

had this in various areas of my life. That,

35:11

Switchboard place where you're controlling inbound and

35:13

outbound communication is a place of extreme

35:15

power and leverage because all you have

35:17

to do is change the tone of

35:20

a communication or say, you know, he

35:22

did say that you have that is

35:24

like letting someone else be your eyes

35:26

and ears and it is unhealthy. So

35:28

someone who wants to be the mediator

35:30

who wants to be the mediator between

35:32

you and someone else. is

35:34

just not a healthy way. It doesn't

35:36

mean that they're evil, doesn't mean that

35:38

they're bad. If you hear and feel

35:41

management of how you communicate with other

35:43

people, meaning like beyond, hey, here's something

35:45

in confidence, please don't tell them that.

35:47

But it's like, I don't

35:49

want to give too many concrete examples

35:51

here, but if you feel like. Your relationships

35:53

with a third party are mediated through

35:55

something. Be very, very wary. That is not

35:57

healthy. I know exactly what you mean.

35:59

And also, I just have to say, like,

36:01

I know that we don't mean people

36:03

that see two friends having a conflict and

36:05

they're like, oh, I want to mediate

36:07

this. That's like the person. Yeah. I

36:10

know exactly what you mean. The person we're

36:12

like. you're about to make, maybe it's a business

36:14

move or you're going to communicate with somebody

36:16

something very important. Yeah. And the person

36:18

says, wait, let me do it. And it makes you

36:20

feel like they, they have something they want to add.

36:22

Yeah. No, they, they,

36:24

they're ulterior motive to me is they have

36:27

something they want to add on or they

36:29

want to control. They want to be in

36:31

the middle. They want to, they want to

36:33

tax the transaction. They want to like, so

36:35

this would happen in business where I'm about

36:37

to build something. And it's, oh, yeah, let

36:39

me set that up. And now it's like,

36:41

now there's an extra partner in the, in

36:43

the conversation. Then. people who have to deeply

36:46

contribute to the project because somebody is organizing

36:48

it, right? And I felt that a lot

36:50

of places in terms of things. What's the

36:52

question? Things that red flags that you noticed

36:54

that that somebody's going to fuck you over

36:56

later. a Chris Montgomery. Yeah.

36:59

Well, so well, it's not even fuck you, but

37:01

just it's not going to go well, because none

37:03

of these in my case necessarily apply malintent. When

37:08

you feel when I think this

37:10

is one this I thought this

37:12

was a kindness there were people

37:14

in my life one of whom

37:16

wound up stealing a tremendous amount

37:18

of money that the the I

37:20

thought his ethical infractions were like

37:22

cute and sweet and like,

37:25

oh, he's such a little boy about it.

37:27

Like, you can't get mad at him. There's

37:29

this childlike quality to the mistakes that would

37:31

be made in terms of, oh, he didn't

37:33

tell the truth there, but it's because he's

37:35

a baby. You know what I mean? It's

37:37

like, oh, he did that thing. Well, what

37:39

do you expect? He's a baby. Like, there

37:41

was this very, this...

37:43

Yeah, he had a quality that

37:46

was... of a little boy. And it

37:48

was, as I learned more about

37:50

some of the history, it was like,

37:52

oh, this is the little boy

37:54

who is not, if not my fault,

37:56

sort of energy. Oh my God,

37:58

I hate, I hate them motherfuckers. I

38:00

know exactly what you're about. Well,

38:02

I would feel that things that I

38:04

might have been mad for an

38:06

adult doing who knew better, I

38:08

wouldn't get mad at him. It's like, because he doesn't

38:10

know any better. And so if you find yourself doing

38:12

that, that person doesn't know any better. That

38:15

was a huge learning for me and it's not

38:17

that oh, I need to teach him or do

38:19

anything It's just like this is not gonna go

38:21

well because I'm treating this person who is an

38:23

adult like a child would you would you ever

38:25

describe yourself as gullible? Yeah Really?

38:27

I think I'm gullible too.

38:30

I was asking you that because I think I'm gullible. I

38:33

can be. Like sometimes I can

38:35

see and I actually don't know what

38:37

the what the differentiator is. Sometimes

38:39

I can see through something so quickly

38:41

and then sometimes it doesn't hit

38:43

me till it hits me, you know?

38:45

And that's 75 % of the time.

38:47

Sure. And I don't know

38:50

why this is... Okay, I'm thinking a bit

38:52

about these traits you're telling me like

38:54

you're saying about... that's like, I'm just

38:56

a baby. Or like, sometimes you felt

38:58

like you couldn't be mad at mom. I

39:00

feel like I had a similar thing

39:02

too. We're like, um,

39:05

for, let's see how to explain this.

39:07

I had, um, I had a family member

39:09

that was essentially the only family member

39:11

left, uh, during a period of my life.

39:13

Um, my family had a lot of

39:15

issues and this was just the last

39:17

person that guardian that I had, you

39:20

know, and this guardian. was

39:22

very sick, like very, very

39:24

mentally ill, and obviously I

39:26

don't know this as a

39:28

child, but looking back

39:30

on that, I realized that I made a

39:32

lot of excuses for that person all

39:35

the time, every step of the way. Some

39:37

of the most disturbing shit, I made

39:39

an excuse for it, and I couldn't figure

39:41

out why, but I think I realized

39:43

that when I was 12 or 13, I

39:45

realized there was nothing I could do.

39:47

This was my situation. So I had to

39:49

create a reality that I could exist

39:51

in where this person wasn't awful because I

39:54

accepted that this person was awful, then

39:56

I was in an awful situation. But if

39:58

I could change the lens and say,

40:00

oh, it's not that bad so that I

40:02

could survive. And thrive

40:04

and be in a wonderful situation with someone

40:06

who does love you and is taking good

40:08

care. Yeah. And it's like, I just need

40:10

to pretend until I figure it out and

40:12

get out of this. But that has turned

40:14

into, as an adult, me tending to make

40:16

excuses for people with bad behavior because I

40:18

haven't figured out how to escape it or

40:20

get away from it. So I'm like, okay,

40:22

I just need to survive with it for

40:24

a while by fawning to it. And then,

40:26

and then I'll figure it out. And then,

40:28

and then sometimes, you know, I don't know,

40:30

I'm a real 17 strikes and you're out

40:32

type of girl. So like. They

40:35

sometimes they don't even have to buy

40:37

themselves more time. I'll buy them time

40:39

and then I'll forgive them afterwards. You're

40:41

right. It's a survival strategy, which is

40:43

tied to if I lose this relationship,

40:45

this person, this quality of interaction that

40:47

I've been familiar with since I was

40:49

literally dependent on other people. If that

40:51

leaves my life, I'll die. Yes. And

40:53

so I want to find a way

40:55

to keep it in my life. And

40:57

that's I think that's why some of

40:59

these hooks keep running until you. Do

41:02

the work to catch that child consciousness

41:04

that still exists in you up to

41:06

the reality of your adult situation, which

41:08

is oh, I can Live without this.

41:10

I can do better without this. Yeah,

41:12

like, you know, but that that is

41:14

not a cognitive experience that is a

41:16

that is emotional felt slow integrative experience

41:18

that can't just be this is when

41:20

I see friends date the same kind

41:22

of woman that just goes terribly every

41:24

time we're getting the same kind of

41:26

horrible business partnership with someone that is

41:28

you know, like It can be frustrating

41:30

because you're like, I can give you

41:32

the sentence that is going to get

41:34

you out of this. This is codependency.

41:36

This is your attraction to narcissism, whatever.

41:38

But it doesn't. That's not how it's

41:40

learned. Yeah, you could explain it to

41:42

them. And I mean, here's someone could explain to me.

41:44

Well, we're explaining our own fucking problem right now.

41:46

And we're like, well, let's go bang our head up

41:48

against the wall after this, you know. Yeah. But

41:51

fuck, what are we talking about? No, just

41:53

that it is not a cognitive process of

41:55

and you said, I don't know why some

41:57

of these things and why not. But you

41:59

just described. This it's

42:01

the childhood thing. It's the lies that

42:03

were required to survive are the ones

42:06

that you that you need to continue

42:08

perpetuating until you can slowly work your

42:10

way through them as an adult. Yeah.

42:12

And also, I like what you said

42:14

a little bit ago about it. So

42:16

it's not just an instant process. I

42:18

think it takes time because, you know,

42:20

going back to my football player analogy

42:22

that I like to play on the

42:24

little weird field, I'm like, yeah, let's

42:26

play this game again. I've

42:30

I've been that football player, quote unquote,

42:32

for 15 years. And only in the

42:34

past, I would say two or three

42:36

years have I started to have some

42:38

major healing. And so I,

42:40

for lack of a better term, I've been the

42:42

football player for 15 years, but I've only been

42:44

a little more healed for two or three years.

42:46

What was the switch? I

42:49

needed to go to therapy. And

42:51

it was therapy. Okay. Yeah. Honestly,

42:53

it was having a very good

42:55

therapist that gave me like EMDR

42:57

and like really. Yeah, just

42:59

really went in. It was my therapist

43:01

that changed everything for me. Yeah. Um, but

43:03

so I've only been a little more

43:05

healed working on it for three years. I

43:07

would say more healed for the past

43:09

year and a half. And boy, let me

43:11

tell you, I love sitting at home

43:14

by myself, not causing no trouble. I like

43:16

to white like, I like to watch

43:18

white lotus. I make chocolates at home. I

43:20

make, I make my little music. I

43:22

have a perfume lab. I like just mind

43:24

my fucking business and I love it,

43:26

but. Sometimes I love the game, Charlie. because

43:30

I've existed in this space for

43:33

longer, I probably, even though it's not

43:35

good for me, I probably feel

43:37

my most self, the most, you know,

43:39

when I'm playing this game. So

43:41

you might feel the most yourself when

43:43

you're fawning or something. A drunk

43:45

feels most themselves in the bar and

43:48

a workaholic feels most themselves when

43:50

the deal isn't getting done and they're

43:52

ignoring their family. And it's the

43:54

allure of the addictive cycle of. Who

43:56

you think you are too. Yeah,

43:58

yeah, which. Any and what I have

44:01

seen and I've said it also we're so fucking

44:03

annoying cuz like who has conversations? Oh,

44:05

no, this is maybe this is for

44:07

me this The biggest problems in my life

44:09

are how I relate to my own

44:11

experience, right? And it's and it's not that

44:13

any of the problems are so difficult

44:15

to solve. Like we're talking about if somebody

44:17

else took over your body, they could

44:19

extricate themselves from every toxic relationship that you're

44:22

in that is so appealing to you,

44:24

you know? And somebody could do the same

44:26

with me if they're like, you know,

44:28

the patterns that I have with my girlfriend

44:30

that are unhealthy, they'd be like, well,

44:32

just don't do that. It'd be easy for

44:34

someone with a different set of history

44:36

and traumas to just. Oh, they

44:38

would change our lives so fast, but okay,

44:41

I got a question. Is somebody switched lives

44:43

with you, stepped into your body, your brain,

44:45

your world, whatever, and they, you

44:47

know, open your front door. What's the first

44:49

thing that they, what's the first thing that you

44:51

think that a random person inhabiting your body

44:53

would notice? This is a rando.

44:55

There's like a person from Walmart that is

44:57

just yeah, like they they become they become

44:59

Charlie What are the I probably that I'm

45:01

in you know a high tax bracket and

45:04

I live in a large house They would

45:06

they would that would be a bumper for

45:08

the rando off the street Wow, that's like

45:10

so I was gonna say they would notice

45:12

the screaming first like if anyone inhabited my

45:14

body and like there would be like like

45:16

eight different voices that are like you like

45:18

you got it You're like your piece of

45:20

shit like make some fucking coffee do this

45:22

whatever and then just perpetual scream I

45:25

honestly, to me,

45:27

I feel like there's a hurricane that exists

45:30

in my head at all times. And anybody

45:32

else that stepped into the space, they'd be

45:34

like, what the fuck is this? But I'm

45:36

like, I live here. So we

45:38

talked about, histrionic little, what

45:41

traits do you see in the creator economy

45:43

that are different? So one thing that I've noticed

45:45

is I've worked as a consultant. I knew

45:47

a bunch of people in finance. My mom was

45:49

a nurse. My girlfriend is an animal rescue. Every

45:52

profession has a particular style of

45:54

personality and also of toxicity that

45:56

exists. You are 100 % correct.

45:58

So like the animal people, for

46:01

instance, that are like, they're some

46:03

of the most caring, compassionate people.

46:05

And also they have real issues

46:07

with humans. They're

46:10

like, oh my God, this beautiful

46:12

little bunny needs help. And like, and

46:14

then they hate people. And it's

46:16

like, yeah, I get it. There's the

46:18

soft furry creature that is safer.

46:20

feel like wildly misunderstood by feel wildly

46:22

misunderstood. Yes. And I could

46:24

do the finance. I could do all of these.

46:26

But I'm curious. And I've seen some of the

46:28

creators, but you know more creators than I do.

46:30

No, I don't. I mean, I do. Yeah,

46:34

I've been a fan. creator circles, like

46:36

I've been in a couple different groups

46:38

and things. Attention seeking seems like an

46:40

obvious. Oh, that's a really high one.

46:42

Okay, all right, okay, sorry. I will

46:44

throw out the histrionic, not diagnosis, but

46:46

I'm like, there are traits that match

46:48

up with, okay, have you heard of

46:50

like a Johnny Somali? heard of. Yeah.

46:52

And have you ever wondered why he

46:54

goes to Japan and starts messing with

46:56

people and doing fucked up stuff and

46:58

recording it? That is textbook histrionic traits.

47:00

It is attention seeking outside of the

47:02

realm that we can barely like even

47:05

understand. Um, they're okay. Ooh, I'm

47:07

going to say this one too. Cause actually

47:09

a therapist, uh, that I have a friend

47:11

of mine, she, she's the one that clocked

47:13

this. Um, Nikocado avocados

47:15

shows some very, very

47:17

histrionic personality traits. Not

47:19

saying any, you know, diagnosis

47:21

or anything. I'm not a therapist. But

47:23

like, these are some like YouTube

47:25

personalities You don't know Nikocado avocado was

47:28

a creator who then got exorbitantly

47:30

fat doing mukbangs and like deadly overweight.

47:32

Yes. Disappeared for a while. Like

47:34

he was wearing the mask, like the

47:36

oxygen mask. Like, like it was

47:38

just extreme. And then

47:40

disappeared for a while. It showed up.

47:42

Way at a way lower weight almost

47:44

is just like a shocking return and

47:46

I have no idea what is what

47:48

is up to now Yeah, but I

47:50

mean all of his content across the

47:52

board just the screaming the attention seeking

47:54

the saying insane stuff and one particular

47:56

trait about histrionics that I think is

47:58

so interesting is their attention seeking will

48:01

follow kind of normal patterns in line

48:03

with what you expect of them and

48:05

what also most attention seekers will do

48:07

but histrionics to this really unique thing

48:09

where when their attention isn't working they

48:11

will go completely off the map and

48:13

do something really bizarre, something that you

48:15

can't even wrap your head around. And

48:17

that's part of the shock value to

48:19

bring your attention back. Yeah. A lot

48:21

of a lot of people that do

48:24

shock value stuff, it's their histrionic traits.

48:26

And I don't mind talking about that

48:28

disorder too much because I don't like

48:30

to talk about like, you know, schizophrenia

48:33

or bipolar, borderline,

48:35

anything, I feel like a lot

48:37

of those get misconstrued, even narcissistic

48:39

personality disorder, okay? Even the fucking

48:41

sociopaths, they're always taking Ls, because

48:43

I feel like those - They're

48:46

always taking Ls. I feel like

48:48

a lot of those personality disorders

48:50

are very pop -cultury, and they get

48:52

really scrutinized, but nobody talks about

48:54

histrionics, and they're everywhere, because they're

48:56

annoying but harmless, whereas a lot

48:58

of other personality disorders can really

49:00

throw you for a loop, you

49:02

know? One

49:04

the things that I know that

49:06

you specialized in is women who fall

49:08

in love with serial killers. Hi,

49:11

Brice de Filiax. Yeah, tell me about

49:13

that. Hi, Bristifiliacs, let's see. Okay,

49:15

I have to say full disclaimer, if

49:17

you're a Luigi Vangione fan, I

49:19

don't put them in the Hi, Bristifiliac

49:21

category because I don't even put

49:23

his whole thing in the true crime

49:25

category. I think it's more of

49:27

a social issue. So I just want

49:29

to say the Luigi fan girls,

49:31

you're not included in this. What I'm

49:33

talking about are people, for example,

49:35

that think Wade Wilson is really hot.

49:37

Wade Wilson is just a career

49:39

criminal that has a couple of face

49:41

tattoos and a haircut that

49:43

girls like. And he murdered

49:45

two women, one of which he ran

49:47

over with a car and he said that

49:49

he ran over her over and over

49:51

and over again until her guts were all

49:54

over the sidewalk. That's what he said

49:56

about this woman. And there are hundreds of

49:58

women that are writing to him in

50:00

jail, creating Facebook pages. They're orchestrating his social

50:02

media campaigns. He tells them on the

50:04

phone how to turn the music down and

50:06

videos, how to edit it. Don't use

50:08

that picture of me. And these women on

50:10

the Facebook group, they go and edit

50:13

these videos and post them on TikTok from

50:15

the criminals direction in jail. That's

50:17

how obsessed they are. They're all fighting

50:19

with each other, donating money to them.

50:21

I think, you know, uh, Wade Wilson

50:23

probably had like, he had over $150

50:25

,000. others donated to his commissary from

50:27

women that were fans. Is this

50:29

a singular Wade Wilson experience or

50:31

is this like? Oh, this is huge.

50:33

Are you kidding me? A hybrid

50:35

cephalia is incredibly common. There were hundreds

50:37

of women that wrote to Charles

50:39

Manson, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, who had

50:42

stinky breath, by the way. Chris

50:44

Watts, a man that murdered his wife.

50:46

know the Chris Watts one, yeah.

50:48

Yes, his two children. Really? Yes, and

50:50

also Chris Watts. When his two

50:52

girls were not dead, he put them

50:54

in the back seat of the

50:56

car with his dead wife, Shanann, in

50:58

the back. And then he

51:00

took them to this oil vat and he

51:02

threw his daughters in there alive because he

51:04

couldn't bear to suffocate them again. He threw

51:06

them into the oil vat alive. And there

51:09

are women that write to him and they

51:11

say, Chris, I don't think you did it.

51:13

No. Chris, I love you. Chris, if you

51:15

just need a friend. But wait, wait, wait.

51:17

So what is the psychology of this? Is

51:19

it the? I don't think you did it.

51:21

So they definitely, they don't care if he

51:23

did it. They haven't even assessed whether he

51:26

did it or not. In fact, I think

51:28

a lot of them do think that he

51:30

did it because what I believe that they're

51:32

looking for is I believe that a lot

51:34

of them are women that either feel like

51:36

they're nobodies or they feel like they're not

51:38

safe and they think that if they can

51:40

attach themselves to this violent, popular man, then

51:43

they can be somebody and they'll be protected.

51:45

I've also started, and that's where my initials

51:47

come in. Like that kind of clocks or

51:49

makes sense, right? And then the

51:51

other things that I realized too, and this

51:53

came in later when I was looking

51:55

at this hybrisyphiliac named Ash Trevino is that

51:57

actually a lot of these women are

51:59

also so insecure that they prefer a man

52:01

that's in jail. because they think, oh,

52:04

you can't go and hook up with other

52:06

women because you're in jail. But

52:08

then what happens is they might

52:10

be up for release or they might

52:12

be getting out soon. And she doesn't

52:14

want him to lead the jail. And

52:16

I couldn't figure out why until I

52:18

put this piece together. Or another thing

52:20

that will happen is they'll start accusing

52:22

their inmate husband of like, you're sleeping

52:24

with other guys, you're fucking other dudes.

52:26

And it's like, they thought that they

52:28

were gonna be able to handle it

52:30

cause there's no other women in the

52:32

jail, but then they become so obsessed

52:34

and insecure. idea of someone in a

52:36

cage is so appealing to them. Interesting.

52:38

And also it's that they, own this

52:40

dangerous animal that's got all these names.

52:42

This makes them somebody. There

52:45

was a hybristophiliac that testified for

52:47

Sarah Boone. Sarah Boone was a

52:49

woman who was abusing her

52:51

boyfriend for over a year and a

52:53

half. She took his cell phone. She wouldn't

52:56

let him have a job. She was,

52:58

and also he was like, he was Hispanic.

53:00

His name was Jorge. She would

53:02

call him George as a way to demean him. This

53:05

woman was a horrible alcoholic, horribly

53:07

abusive. She ends up murdering Jorge by

53:09

telling him to get into the

53:11

suitcase and she zipped it up and

53:13

she left him in the suitcase. Yeah.

53:18

And actually the way that Jorge died

53:20

was not just from losing oxygen in

53:22

the suitcase. It was because the suitcase

53:24

was flat on the ground and he

53:26

died from a positional asphyxiation. These are

53:28

so wild. Oh, yeah, dude. So, so,

53:30

and here's, - I do not know how

53:32

people watch this stuff regularly. Oh, yeah.

53:34

Well, I mean, why would somebody do

53:36

that, Charlie? Right? I gotta know why,

53:38

but, um, just to give you a

53:40

sense of justice at all. The reason

53:42

that Sarah Boone got caught, she denied

53:44

it to all hell. She even called

53:46

the police and were like, my

53:48

boyfriend, he went into a suitcase

53:50

and I think he's dead. She

53:53

was so drunk that she recorded a

53:56

video of him begging to be out

53:58

of the suitcase while she laughed at

54:00

him. And it was on her phone

54:02

and she didn't even realize that it

54:04

was on her fucking phone. There's a

54:06

level of both, like, disconnection

54:08

empathetically and also idiocy.

54:10

That is so. Justification

54:13

too. And you know what is

54:15

interesting? I think we lack that

54:17

trait. I think we lack that

54:19

justification trait for ourselves. We tend to

54:22

justify and make excuses for other people. I'm

54:24

seeing that as a pattern that we

54:26

both have. But how often do you justify

54:28

that something that happened to you was

54:30

bad or something that you did was good

54:32

or something that you did had to

54:34

be done? I justify for other people much

54:36

more than myself. But

54:38

these types of people, they tend

54:40

to justify their actions no matter how

54:43

bad they are, and they really

54:45

will reinforce it. But anyways, so this

54:47

woman is horrible, right? She

54:49

had a hybris to filiac that This

54:52

was crazy. Testified

54:54

for her in court. It's a woman in this

54:56

case? Okay, so this is now

54:59

a lesbian relationship. Yeah, well, or maybe

55:01

she claimed they were friends, but it, you

55:03

know, something was going on. So

55:05

Sarah Boone, the killer, the suitcase killer,

55:07

she tells this high bristofeliac that's writing

55:09

to her that wants to be friends

55:11

with her. The high bristofeliac is... very

55:13

sick. She has some type of cancer

55:15

and needs a transplant. And Sarah goes,

55:18

Oh my God, I would totally give

55:20

you that organ. Anyways, how's your day?

55:22

And that's how she bonded with this

55:24

woman that ended up testifying for her

55:26

later, trying to say that like Sarah

55:28

was such a great person. But

55:31

it does something for them. This

55:33

person that was you know, very

55:35

sick, had cancer, is just,

55:37

you know, alone, because she described

55:40

her life was like that. Well,

55:42

now she's attached to this famous

55:44

murderer. And now she's testifying in

55:46

this famous case. And now

55:48

she's saving her. So her life

55:50

has gone from this to this.

55:53

Is there, there's not men really who do this, though,

55:55

I imagine. There

55:57

are not as many hybrids there. No, there

55:59

are not a lot of hybrids to fill

56:01

the eggman No, some interesting some that went

56:04

after like Jodi Arias, but they were a

56:06

little more Just attracted do or something probably

56:08

the pride thought she was hot. Yeah. Yeah,

56:10

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know that

56:12

the dangerous is the thing It's just willing

56:14

to overlook crazy girls, too They just like

56:16

it's like a thing for them like like

56:18

if you if a good dude's mom was

56:21

fucking crazy like they'll like crazy girls It's

56:23

just that and that's their hook and they

56:25

can't unhook from it. Hmm So what what? You're

56:28

doing all of this. Is this like

56:30

a specialty of yours? The hyperstaphiliac. I'm just

56:32

fascinated by it. I'm just really fascinated

56:34

by it because they do so much weird

56:37

shit. I'm like, are you guys OK?

56:39

Got it. What do you get out of

56:41

it? Like when you when you unlock

56:43

something in the hyperstaphiliac understanding. You

56:47

know, if I'm just being like honest,

56:49

I think that there is a little

56:52

bit of ego and pulling apart the

56:54

Hybristophiliac part for me and others. I

56:56

think people never do anything for one

56:58

reason. I think it's for multitude of

57:00

reasons. So what do I get out

57:02

of it? Bro, also if you ask

57:04

me shit, I'm gonna answer transparently to

57:06

my own detriment, okay? But...

57:09

I get out of it? I get one

57:11

understanding because that one is just fascinating to me.

57:13

And then two, I probably get a little

57:15

ego out of it of like, oh, I would

57:17

never do that or I don't have that

57:19

trait. And then probably I feel like

57:21

there's something else in the mix, but I can't quite put

57:23

my finger on what it is. Yeah,

57:25

definitely those two. Yeah. We've

57:27

talked about this a little bit, but

57:29

it's always interesting to reflect on what are

57:31

the particular issues and psychological things that

57:34

hook me. And it's not necessarily like it's

57:36

not necessarily ones that I'm doing like

57:38

I don't I said Brian Laundrie grabbed me

57:40

but it's not because I'm gonna You

57:42

should pay somebody to trick you I should

57:44

pay someone to trick me. Yeah. Why?

57:46

Like, just pay somebody like, hey, sometime

57:49

in the next three years. I don't need

57:51

to pay people. People trick me just

57:53

fine. No, but like, you get, you, I

57:55

think it's time to run a psychological

57:57

experiment on yourself, Charlie. Take

58:00

it to the next level. Just hire somebody

58:02

that like at some point at randomly in three

58:04

years, they're going to come into your life

58:06

with a certain plot line that you cannot resist.

58:08

And throughout the whole way, they're going to

58:10

analyze all of your behavior and try to trick

58:12

you and lead you astray. at the end,

58:14

they're gonna be like, Charlie, this was the social

58:16

experiment. You're free, we're not gonna. And here's

58:18

the report. You would eat that shit up, bro.

58:21

I like to think that I would not be as

58:23

susceptible as I've been in the past. I would

58:25

like to think that too, but sometimes I wanna eat

58:27

a little catnip. Yeah, yeah. Well,

58:30

beautiful. Is there anything else that we should chat

58:32

about? No. Okay. Okay, I didn't know how long

58:34

your podcast was. I didn't know if you were

58:36

about to Joe Rogan me or something. No, no,

58:38

you don't need to drink coffee. Where

58:40

can people find you? Um, I am

58:43

both versus the world on YouTube. I do

58:45

a lot of videos on like pop

58:47

culture stuff, a lot of like manipulation shit.

58:49

Um, and honestly, half of my videos

58:51

are just me being triggered and like overly

58:53

hyper vigilant. Um, but I do it

58:55

for content. So if you like that, you

58:57

can watch that. I also have bodycams.

58:59

I have a channel called bests of bodycams

59:01

with bows. Um, and you can watch

59:03

sinister on Fridays where we break down people's

59:06

horrible psychological patterns. Are you doing anything

59:08

with a. You have anything in production

59:10

that you're working on right now for yeah, but

59:12

I cannot talk about that right now But I

59:14

have some cool stuff. Okay. Yeah, I have some

59:16

very cool stuff for camera. All right. Well, thank

59:18

you guys. We appreciate you all Get your next

59:20

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59:37

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