0:10

Welcome back to Dungeon Master's Block, the

0:12

place where we come to talk

0:14

about the the Master, the most

0:16

important person in the game. in

0:19

With every conversation, we hope

0:21

to inspire as many as possible

0:23

many keep to keep on

0:25

Dungeon Mastering. And one of

0:27

your of your hosts DiM Neal, aka Joke And today,

0:29

we are going to be talking

0:31

to Kate to Kate a fantasy author

0:33

author, has written her own novels,

0:35

but more importantly, made a ton

0:37

of her own maps. We're gonna

0:39

talk to her about her to start

0:41

mapping, where to start mapping in

0:43

all of those things. But before

0:45

that, definitely keep an eye out.

0:47

We have finally figured out some

0:49

of the best ways that we

0:51

can manage manage giveaways for both both

0:54

handbook and the the dungeon You should

0:56

see that on see that on all our social

0:58

as well as about it here

1:00

on the podcast. podcast. of course, as

1:02

you well know, know, we trying to

1:04

ever expand the expand network podcast are

1:06

new shows on the network, network, namely

1:08

Knocked Prown and Bad Venture Club. So if you if

1:10

you wanna go check both of those

1:12

out there in the show notes and we

1:14

are starting to finish out and round

1:16

out out. the block party podcast network.com as we try

1:18

and add everyone in in and make the block party

1:20

bigger and and better than ever. of And

1:22

of course we've got some new logos

1:24

and things like that. So if you

1:26

check out our out store, if you're interested

1:28

in anything we should be putting more

1:30

stuff up there. be And of course stuff

1:32

up always of an eye out for some

1:34

of the new stuff coming out to

1:36

you. of the new that out of the

1:38

way. out to you. But with that out of

1:40

the way let's head to the meat. We

1:43

ain't a nothing but maggoty bread

1:45

for three stinking days. Why can't

1:47

we have some meat? The flight

1:50

meets back on the menu boys!

1:52

And today we are super excited

1:54

excited to chat

1:57

with our guest

1:59

Kate Corsak. a fantasy author with a

2:01

passion for world building and map building. So,

2:03

welcome to the show, Kate. Hi, thank you

2:05

for having me. So the first question we

2:07

like to ask people is, can you

2:10

tell us a little bit about yourself?

2:12

This can be anything and everything just

2:14

to kind of give us an idea

2:16

about who you are and what you're

2:18

about. Yeah, absolutely. So I, man, I've

2:20

been a writer since I was like

2:22

a kid. So back in like fourth

2:24

grade, I like started writing books and

2:26

they were all like little stories about

2:28

like fairies and, you know, talking dogs

2:30

and all the stuff that a fourth

2:32

grader writes about. But as I got

2:34

older, I got super into fantasy. Obviously,

2:36

War of the Rings, you know, Narnia,

2:38

whatever. And so eventually that turned into

2:41

a love of like, oh, I want

2:43

to write, like I want to write

2:45

fantasy books. And with that came mat

2:47

making. So that was something that kind

2:49

of was like, didn't really expect, wasn't

2:51

something I was like, oh, I'm going

2:53

to make maps for, you know, forever.

2:55

That's going to be my thing. But

2:57

like, as I started writing and I

2:59

started building these worlds, I was like,

3:01

oh, well, I want to make a

3:03

map for it. So I taught myself

3:05

how to make fantasy maps. And now

3:07

here I am, full-time writer and map

3:09

maker. So. That is awesome because like

3:12

my daughter is in fifth grade and

3:14

she just started doing you know fan

3:16

fiction is a really low-hanging fruit for

3:18

a lot of people to get get

3:20

their start and it is a heavy

3:22

suggestion if you have someone that is

3:24

interested in their property just try writing

3:26

some fan fiction it kind of gives

3:28

you some easy guardrails to stay inside

3:30

and so she started doing that with

3:32

her friends back and forth so it's

3:34

awesome to hear like it's just exciting

3:36

yeah You just keep writing, you keep

3:38

at it, and eventually you get to

3:40

where it's like, oh, wow, this is

3:43

like my job now. Who to thought?

3:45

Is there anything that you're currently working

3:47

on and due to NDAs and all

3:49

of those fun things that you can

3:51

tell us about? So yeah, my book

3:53

that is about to come out is

3:55

Guardian, and that is, I've been working

3:57

on that for three years now. It

3:59

started as. project. So if

4:01

everyone knows that that is, it's the

4:03

challenge of writing a book, a book

4:05

in the month of November. And so

4:08

I've succeeded, I wrote 50,000 words, and

4:10

I fell in love with the story,

4:12

so I kept going with it. And

4:14

then I put it aside for several

4:16

months and came back to it and

4:18

revisited and rewrote. and hired an editor

4:21

and all that kind of stuff. So

4:23

I'm indie published, which is I'm so

4:25

proud to be indie. I absolutely love

4:27

this community and I love indie publishing.

4:29

So I hired my own editor, I

4:31

hired my own cover designer, I print

4:34

my own books. Well, I have a

4:36

printer and distributor who prints my books.

4:38

And so it's a very like high

4:40

risk. way of publishing because you all

4:42

of the money for it all of

4:44

the funding and whatever comes out of

4:47

your own pockets and if the book

4:49

doesn't sell it's your fault there's nothing

4:51

really you know there's other factors but

4:53

there are there's no one to blame

4:55

right you don't have a publisher yeah

4:57

you don't have a publisher to take

4:59

the brunt of those losses you take

5:02

all those losses but it also means

5:04

that I could do things exactly how

5:06

I wanted so I could put my

5:08

map in my book and I could

5:10

put my pronunciation guide and I could

5:12

publish it when I wanted and I

5:15

could find the cover designer that I

5:17

wanted and all that kind of stuff.

5:19

So all of that to say, that

5:21

one comes out in November and then

5:23

I'm working on the second one. It's

5:25

just a two-book series. So the second

5:28

one ideally will be out end of

5:30

2025. That's the plan for it. Nice.

5:32

Nice. Yeah. As a person who's done

5:34

various creative things, not to the scale

5:36

that you have, but has done similar

5:38

stuff. And Neil has also done some

5:40

publishing and stuff. I think we both

5:43

understand the want to be able to

5:45

control all these aspects. as opposed to

5:47

kind of giving control to somebody else.

5:49

I, yeah, I don't know, I just

5:51

really want to pick the right art

5:53

for the story or whatever I'm doing,

5:56

and I want to, I feel like

5:58

I'm in control. Maybe that's not a

6:00

great thing all the time, but I

6:02

get where you're coming from. Right, no,

6:04

I get that. And like, there is

6:06

some aspect of like, I just want

6:09

to do, like, I want it. be,

6:11

you know, I want the control, but

6:13

there's some aspect too of just like

6:15

I want it to be the best

6:17

that I know it can be. And

6:19

while a publisher would do a great

6:21

job and I would like to try

6:24

going the traditional route at some point,

6:26

indie publishing was just so good for

6:28

this book. And like I've connected with

6:30

so many like small creators and stuff

6:32

because of it, like, it was great.

6:34

I'm like, I love it. I think

6:37

it's such a cool thing that like

6:39

we can do this. Yeah, I love

6:41

the support that you get to from

6:43

all the different folks. Like you said,

6:45

if you meet a ton of other

6:47

people who are doing indie like you,

6:50

they can give you tons of advice

6:52

on how to, you know, handle whatever

6:54

struggle you are encountering currently. It's great.

6:56

And the knowledge you have is awesome.

6:58

Well, and there are vanity publishers out

7:00

there that don't care about the authors

7:02

at all. That was my first book,

7:05

The Curse of Rago, was published with

7:07

what I would consider to be a

7:09

vanity publisher, who I paid them, and

7:11

they kind of screwed me over. They

7:13

published my e-book with a missing chapter.

7:15

They did not do what I wanted

7:18

them to do. Yeah, it was really

7:20

not good. I had to fight them

7:22

to get my files, because they didn't

7:24

want to give me, even though I

7:26

own the rights to the rights to

7:28

the book. It was not a good

7:31

situation. That's something that I would have

7:33

known. I would have seen the red

7:35

flags going into it if I had

7:37

any published like this before. But in

7:39

the long run, it showed me I

7:41

got to see some of the inside

7:43

and I saw what they were doing.

7:46

And I was like, I can do

7:48

that. They formatted my book in Microsoft

7:50

Word. I was like, I have Microsoft

7:52

Word. I can do that. I don't

7:54

need you. Nice. I've never heard the

7:56

term vanity publisher. publishers are essentially publishers

7:59

that you want to look out for.

8:01

Look out, yeah, they're publishers that you

8:03

don't want to publish with. They do

8:05

not have your best interest in mind.

8:07

No, they're shotgun methoding. They're hoping that

8:09

something in the mass amount that they

8:12

get pops off with the minimum amount

8:14

of effort. Yep. And they don't care

8:16

about their individual authors. Yeah. It's unfortunate.

8:18

Yeah, you're doing quantity over quality. If

8:20

I don't know that. I would have

8:22

tried to buy. The book, my first

8:24

book The Curse of Rago, I own

8:27

it. I have all the rights. It

8:29

is all, yeah. That was the one

8:31

good thing is that I did not

8:33

sign any contracts with them. So they

8:35

are completely hands off. They don't have

8:37

anything anymore. It's all mine. So you

8:40

don't have to worry about that. Yeah,

8:42

they're not getting any money from any

8:44

books sold anymore. Okay, surprise question. I

8:46

got one. Oh, good. So for the

8:48

surprise question today, Kate, I would like

8:50

to know if someone were to be

8:53

writing your story, would it be, what

8:55

would be the perspective and what would

8:57

be the tense of the novel of

8:59

your life? I have always been a

9:01

fan of third person and past tense.

9:03

That's the right answer. That's my thing.

9:05

Yeah. That's my, like, I have written

9:08

first person and I did it more

9:10

than anything because I felt like I

9:12

was in, like, a bit of a

9:14

rut and, like, all of my books

9:16

felt the same and I needed to

9:18

kind of change stuff up. So the

9:21

Curcerago is in first person. But my

9:23

preference and what I plan to do

9:25

for all my books going forward, third

9:27

person past tense. Heck no, second, second,

9:29

second, current tense. Do not care. Rough.

9:31

It's a rough go. We're all supposed

9:34

to answer this question. Second person, you

9:36

will write a story about my life

9:38

through the eyes of others. Boom. They

9:40

were watching me be in the world.

9:42

It's going to be tough, but it'll

9:44

work. I'm a third person past tense

9:46

person as well. Whenever I read a

9:49

book that isn't that I'm always just

9:51

like, yeah. I don't know what it

9:53

is, but it just takes like an

9:55

extra a half second for my brain

9:57

to my brain to understand for my

9:59

brain to understand. is being said and

10:02

in I don't know why but that's

10:04

that's how it is I guess it's

10:06

to me it's like whenever I think

10:08

of someone telling a story like around

10:10

a campfire or like me telling my

10:12

kid a bedtime story it's always third

10:15

person past tense and that's how stories

10:17

are supposed to be told to me.

10:19

I get that. Now I will

10:21

say that third person present tense

10:24

does make a little bit of

10:26

sense at times. I've read some

10:28

third person present tense and I

10:30

can do I can deal with

10:32

it sometimes sometimes. Yeah. That was

10:34

my question Neil. I like it.

10:36

I knew an author would have

10:38

would have you know a good

10:40

reason. And you're just like Neil

10:42

doesn't follow any of the rules.

10:44

No one's going to buy his

10:47

book. Hey,

10:49

you know, maybe if you get famous

10:51

enough. All right, so that send us

10:53

down the road. That's my segue into

10:55

mapping. perfect to talk about maps and

10:57

we have quite a few questions but

10:59

who knows where we'll end up but

11:01

one of the ones or one of

11:03

the ones we wanted to ask is

11:05

because you kind of stumbled into map

11:07

making if you will like the idea

11:09

of like wait no this is something

11:11

that I have now realized is really

11:13

important to me and literally the stories

11:15

that I want to tell and so

11:17

what what would you say to someone

11:19

that is going to start mapping for

11:21

the first time. If it's at the

11:23

table, if it's for their own novel,

11:25

because in essence, you're setting it up,

11:27

I think, for like the story you

11:29

want to tell. Yeah. I always recommend

11:31

trying out incarnate, which is the program

11:33

that I use to make maps, just

11:35

because they have a free version, and

11:37

like I use that for literal years

11:39

until I actually published my first book

11:41

and needed the rights that came with

11:43

the pro version to print it in

11:45

the book. So first and foremost, and

11:47

card it's great, give it a try,

11:49

and if you like it, it's like

11:51

20 bucks a year. And so I

11:53

think it's great. I've been a pro

11:55

account user because I know one of

11:57

the guys that made it, so I

11:59

remember. talking to him at

12:01

a Bliscon X number of years ago.

12:03

We're just going to say that to

12:05

make me feel better about how many

12:08

years ago it was. And they've never

12:10

taken rounds of funding. They've never taken

12:12

anything that's literally just built year over

12:14

year, little by little. And now they're

12:16

doing very well. So a lot of

12:18

features, and in that, even more features

12:20

have been added, and again, it's not

12:22

because there's investors on the back end

12:24

or anything like that. It's literally just

12:26

been hard work over years to get

12:28

it to where it is. And to

12:30

us, creators that use it too, like,

12:32

they see us, like when I was

12:34

a small creator and I was just

12:36

like making these little maps for fun,

12:38

they were reposing my videos and going,

12:40

oh, this looks so great, thank you

12:42

for sharing. To me, that is such

12:44

a good feeling when you're, you know,

12:46

when a company like that is like,

12:48

hey, we see you, we notice you,

12:50

thank you. So that, my first is

12:52

incarnate, but also something that really, really

12:55

helped me, and this can apply for

12:57

even if you're doing like hand drawn

12:59

maps or something like that, is if

13:01

you look at other maps that you

13:03

really like and try to mimic them.

13:05

Obviously you can't use that, you know,

13:07

you don't own it, but it's going

13:09

to help build those skills and you're

13:11

going to see things like size, for

13:13

example, like the scale of mountains versus

13:15

trees or whatever, that these other people

13:17

are using in their maps and you're

13:19

going to go, oh, okay, I didn't

13:21

realize that they actually made their trees

13:23

that much smaller than the mountains and

13:25

it's those little changes that all of

13:27

a sudden you start to notice because

13:29

you're copying them. It's wild to think

13:31

how something so small could be such

13:33

a defining feature of a person of

13:35

a person's map making style. I have

13:37

too many questions right now, so I

13:39

don't know what to do. I don't

13:42

know what to do. I'm locked up.

13:44

What usually comes first for you, Kate,

13:46

when in the creative process. Is it

13:48

you create a map and then you

13:50

think what story could I tell here?

13:52

Or do you usually think of the

13:54

story first and then build the map

13:56

to kind of guide the story or

13:58

are they both, you know, just because

14:01

you are constantly changing things for both?

14:03

So usually the very first thing that

14:05

comes to my mind is characters. So

14:07

whenever I'm working on a book or

14:09

even if I'm doing something for D&D,

14:12

I'm thinking about the characters because I

14:14

want the world to make sense for

14:16

them to be in. And so, for

14:18

example, in my book Guardian, the main

14:20

character is an alchemist. And so when

14:23

I was building this world, one of

14:25

the things I really focused on was

14:27

how does alchemy work in this world?

14:29

Because that applies directly to the main

14:32

character. So that's usually where that starts.

14:34

And then I start building the map

14:36

pretty soon after that, because that's one

14:38

of my favorite parts. And I'll just

14:40

build it slowly. coming up with the

14:43

world or coming up the ideas, you

14:45

know, I'm coming up with the shape

14:47

of the world and I'm coming up

14:49

with the different biomes or whatever, and

14:51

I'm thinking, okay, well, what goes here?

14:54

Why is this here? Political borders, you

14:56

know, if there's a large mountain range,

14:58

it's like, all right, well, there's probably

15:00

gonna. be maybe a region on one

15:02

side and a region on another and

15:05

that kind of stuff and so that

15:07

all is very like collaborative like the

15:09

map and the world building it together.

15:11

It's interesting because I think of like

15:13

what would I do because it's definitely

15:16

not what I've done because I typically

15:18

start out and go in like whole

15:20

continents but what is on them go

15:22

from there but the idea of starting

15:24

like with the story what if my

15:27

two main characters are riding across this

15:29

really large open plane well that's the

15:31

place to start then like okay well

15:33

then here they are what's a what

15:35

you know what's just to the east

15:38

because that's where they're headed oh it's

15:40

this forest you know there's a lot

15:42

of different ways certainly to approach it

15:44

and all of them are good Yes.

15:46

It's interesting too because depending on the

15:49

setting you find yourself in is your

15:51

ability to change what you've done. Obviously

15:53

you are not afforded some of those

15:55

same changes without having very large

15:57

reasons as to why

16:00

those changes may have

16:02

happened, whereas be like

16:04

just be like, oh no, a forest

16:06

is a terrible idea. There's a

16:09

lake, There's a lake. not a big deal.

16:11

can just, a big deal. I know, just,

16:13

to go into and erase, it, lake, lake,

16:15

good to go, go. But depending on how

16:17

much you've already established. established. So I I

16:19

don't know, is that? that, I I don't know. so so

16:21

many questions, there's so many questions that I

16:23

have, but that I have, but big there big Like

16:26

when do you feel like you've kind

16:28

of locked in of can't make as large

16:30

of changes on a on a map? Well,

16:32

when it comes to obviously, the book, well,

16:34

no, because here I was going to say because

16:36

I'm, was gonna say like once and you

16:38

know writing it and stuff especially in that first

16:40

in that first draft changed. can be

16:42

changed is that first draft is partner. seen

16:44

by me and my writing partner it the

16:46

only reason she gets to see it

16:48

is because she keeps actually finishing the first

16:50

draft So she she says okay give me

16:52

the next chapter now. chapter That's the only

16:54

reason reason. Otherwise, I would not let anyone

16:56

lay eyes on these first drafts drafts. anything

16:58

anything is subject to change So that, at

17:00

that at that point it's and I would

17:02

say it's it's once I get there

17:04

that first draft writing that first draft and to

17:07

something I want to change fine. I that's fine. I

17:09

could do that. But once I start getting into

17:11

that second draft and I start looking at developmental

17:13

edits and I'm kind of, you know, getting to

17:15

the point, especially if this book has a timeline

17:17

that it needs to be published by, I

17:19

can't keep changing things just for fun,

17:21

you know, this it's like the story, is going

17:23

to benefit the story. It is not going

17:25

to be the same story unless I

17:28

change this. just, you know what, is what it just no point.

17:30

It's just, you know what? It is what it is. And

17:32

at some point you gotta just hands off and say, you

17:34

know what? I need to trust my instinct on this when

17:36

I first made this map this go with it. go with it.

17:38

Has there ever been a time where you are looking at

17:40

a map you've made? a map that is involved

17:42

with the story you're working on and

17:44

you realize something in the map. something

17:47

going to is the choices the choices or

17:49

story moving forward, where you realize,

17:51

you know, a a small decision of

17:53

yours is kind of of affecting things

17:55

wholesale like that, or, you know,

17:58

are there specific times where you maps

18:00

in a way to facilitate those story points

18:02

that you're planning on doing later? I think

18:04

that usually comes into play most with like

18:07

the way I name places because a lot

18:09

of times, especially when you have just this

18:11

massive scale map, I start just putting in

18:13

the names of places and they're really more

18:15

just to have and just so that they're

18:17

there and like maybe the characters don't ever

18:19

talk about that place or whatever, but it's

18:22

for the reader's sake for them to know

18:24

like, hey, there is a place here, it

18:26

exists, and for my sake too of like

18:28

just knowing that hey this specific region has

18:30

a lot of little cities in it and

18:32

so that helps me when I'm thinking about

18:35

maybe trade or that sort of thing, but

18:37

usually that's what that'll come into play because

18:39

I'll be I'll be writing go oh like

18:41

I they i guess they need to go

18:43

to this place or whatever that i wasn't

18:45

really expecting and then all of a sudden

18:47

it's like oh all right well they're going

18:50

to go to this town and this town

18:52

name is stupid what i call it that

18:54

and now it's like great like what do

18:56

i do because they the characters are in

18:58

this area and that's the only place nearby

19:00

and so i would say that's where it

19:02

comes into play is when those naming places

19:05

of like oh well maybe i should put

19:07

more thought into that. I

19:09

know you've already alluded to it in

19:12

letting characters and story define maps. Like

19:14

how do you have that kind of

19:16

go back and forth? Because I think

19:18

it's a really important thing for someone

19:20

who's at their table. It's like I

19:22

have a map that's literally on the

19:24

wall, like my kid, which is a

19:26

big benefit to my children because they're,

19:28

you know, they're of the age that

19:30

visual tools are really helpful to say.

19:32

Oh, I'm from this area here and

19:34

I can see that. I'd like to

19:36

go to this area here. And so

19:39

they've certainly defined some pieces of this

19:41

world because they're in and actively playing

19:43

in it, which is to say the

19:45

same thing of you writing a novel

19:47

inside of a world. I was like,

19:49

where like kind of what's that balance

19:51

between one defining the other, you know,

19:53

instead of I hate using this word,

19:55

but like just making a map. is

19:57

not what I mean because it is

19:59

a daunting task and I do it

20:01

very veryly. No I get it. I

20:03

think especially when it comes to like

20:06

characters and stuff so what I'm creating

20:08

a character, I am thinking about, you

20:10

know, what they look like, maybe just

20:12

like their vibe, what they wear, you

20:14

know, just those aesthetics of that character,

20:16

you know, before I really go into

20:18

who they are and that sort of

20:20

thing. And so when I'm doing that,

20:22

that's usually when the world is kind

20:24

of starting to be built and you

20:26

can see the different regions, you can

20:28

kind of see, and so that's when

20:30

I'll start kind of developing cultures. So

20:32

I've got this character and okay, well

20:35

why do they dress like this? Why

20:37

do they look like this? You know,

20:39

why do they wear their hair like

20:41

this? Whatever. And so a lot of

20:43

those are cultural things. And so then

20:45

I'll take that character and I'll build

20:47

a culture around them essentially. And there

20:49

will be some things that maybe they

20:51

agree with or they disagree with or

20:53

whatever. but that helps not only build

20:55

the character but then build that region

20:57

as well and give a history there.

20:59

I don't know if that answers your

21:02

question. But that's what I that's kind

21:04

of that's kind of where those two

21:06

meet in my head and then at

21:08

a certain point once again like once

21:10

I've kind of started writing the book

21:12

and once I get kind of past

21:14

that first draft or whatever if I

21:16

want to introduce a new character I

21:18

would then Maybe adjust some things or

21:20

add details or remove details, but it's

21:22

those like main characters that I really

21:24

want things to make sense for them

21:26

to be living in that world. Are

21:29

there any valuable resources that you found

21:31

yourself going back to over and over

21:33

again or anything like that that you

21:35

would suggest for folks if they're trying

21:37

to get into making interesting and engaging

21:39

and also realistic maps? I did a

21:41

lot of just YouTube tutorials when I

21:43

was first starting and watching other people

21:45

and like I said that's the biggest

21:47

way I've learned is mimicking other people

21:49

watching other people and Carna actually lets

21:51

you duplicate some of their maps that

21:53

people have allowed to be duplicated and

21:56

if you do that you can click

21:58

on the individual stamps and see the

22:00

size, see the settings, see the colors,

22:02

whatever. See what all they use, what

22:04

all their settings were for that map.

22:06

And that has helped me, like tremendously,

22:08

even recently, even his incarnate, just released

22:10

their new update, the fantasy map 2.0,

22:12

which when I saw that, I almost

22:14

cried. I was like, this is beautiful.

22:16

I love this. And so that has

22:18

absolutely helped me. And then I know

22:20

Cody, his Instagram and Tik are a

22:23

dungeon master's diary. He is coming out

22:25

with a How to Draw Fantasy Maps

22:27

book, and that I know is going

22:29

to be fantastic. He's a great dude.

22:31

His maps are absolutely stunning. And I

22:33

don't remember the release date for that,

22:35

but I know it's available for pre-order.

22:37

There's a comfort level in knowing that

22:39

great authors and designers have always done

22:41

iterations in the sense that if you

22:43

read the earliest version of the Hobbit

22:45

versus the new, you know, the updated

22:47

version of the Hobbit, they're not the

22:50

same because he started with the story

22:52

and then realized, oh, there's a whole

22:54

world here. Let's, oh, I'm just going

22:56

to change his six back in this

22:58

book, please don't look at it, don't

23:00

look at it. But that's also to

23:02

say that like, like, All of it

23:04

is iterative. All of it can change.

23:06

All of it might need to change

23:08

because, especially when you're having someone sit

23:10

down at your table, there are things

23:12

that a person could bring up that

23:14

you'll just have no place for. and

23:17

you'll need to create something inside of

23:19

your world to facilitate that. Like I

23:21

was lucky enough to have a player

23:23

who wanted to play from more of

23:25

a barbarian tribe that was in the

23:27

frozen north. I have a frozen north.

23:29

I don't have a problem with this.

23:31

But if I didn't, do I say

23:33

no or do I say yes or

23:35

do I adapt? So those are always

23:37

the things to keep in mind that

23:39

while some things may be really set,

23:41

there may need to be others that

23:44

are changed. Again, I have mine printed

23:46

out on like a giant tapestry. There

23:48

are a few things that I can

23:50

change. Very, very few. Well, and there's

23:52

always the aspect too of like if

23:54

say you have a continental map. that

23:56

the entire world or are there other

23:58

continents in this world that you just

24:00

haven't explored yet? You know, and so

24:02

there's always like, okay, well, what if

24:04

we did explore it more? What if

24:06

this wasn't all there was? What if

24:08

there was more? We're gonna have, this

24:11

is not in the outline, this is

24:13

nowhere. I've always felt like this is

24:15

the one of the weirdest things. totally

24:17

makes it, makes perfect sense. I've played

24:19

enough World Warcraft to watch a whole

24:21

island, a pandas, just show up in

24:23

the middle near all the other islands.

24:25

We've been flying over this thing for

24:27

a decade. Or like, I also think

24:29

of like the forgotten realms where, like,

24:31

oh, there's a whole other continent. I'm

24:33

just like, with all the magic that

24:35

you have convinced me that we have,

24:37

we have not yet discovered an entire

24:40

equally sized continent in this world. There's

24:42

a hard stretch for me to wrap

24:44

my brain around. But I do get

24:46

it because there is something, there's a

24:48

lot to be said about the undefined

24:50

places in the world. And I think

24:52

that's probably like always one of my

24:54

biggest map making suggestions is that there

24:56

can be bigger things on the map,

24:58

but it's once you over explain them,

25:00

I guess is maybe one way, like

25:02

over defined, like you know the cultures

25:04

of these people, you set their history,

25:07

you know exactly what's going on. Well

25:09

that kind of takes away that level

25:11

of exploration that you can have as

25:13

that back and forth with your players

25:15

or even leaving over defining it even

25:17

when writing a story or a novel

25:19

and setting it too too hard in

25:21

stone only to realize later, oh no.

25:23

Now I'm beholden to that because I

25:25

did too much in the beginning. Yeah,

25:27

well, and that's why I say too,

25:29

like all name cities, but I don't

25:31

really go into details to what's there

25:34

unless it becomes relevant, because then in

25:36

that case, I can do what works

25:38

best for the story that's being told.

25:40

All I need to know is that

25:42

it's there. And it's a very good

25:44

skill for a DM and an author

25:46

is to not worry about filling in

25:48

too much detail until you need to

25:50

be. Yeah. As far as like your

25:52

experience with maps while playing tabletop games,

25:54

have you found that it's equally as

25:56

fun to kind of make maps for

25:58

that purpose or to use them? Do

26:01

you find that a lot of tabletop

26:03

maps are lacking things that you wish

26:05

they had? What's kind of been your

26:07

experience? I wouldn't say anything that I've

26:09

seen at least is lacking. I think

26:11

that there's definitely things that are more

26:13

focused on in like a book that's

26:15

or a map that's for a book

26:17

versus like a map that's for a

26:19

D&D game or for a tabletop game

26:21

in general, but like both of them

26:23

have like their reasons for doing things.

26:25

And I mean, honestly, from my experience,

26:28

I've seen most tabletop maps to be

26:30

a lot more fleshed out than a

26:32

lot of fantasy book maps, depending on

26:34

who the author is and that sort

26:36

of stuff. And I think some of

26:38

that's just because authors are natural storytellers

26:40

and not all of them are natural

26:42

world builders. And that's fine. That's, you

26:44

know, we all have kind of different

26:46

talents and things to bring to the

26:48

table. And so a lot of times

26:50

fantasy maps are built by world builders

26:52

and then played by storytellers, you know,

26:55

when you've got like pre-made games and

26:57

that sort of thing, which I think

26:59

it's just it's a whole other level

27:01

of like just creativity and creative people

27:03

coming together to make like one product.

27:05

I think it's cool. But it is,

27:07

it is. We've had a guest on

27:09

here previously who's helped to develop some

27:11

of the maps for the critical role

27:13

series like the World of Alexandria. And

27:15

I think that would be a fun

27:17

project. You know, Matt Mercer might not

27:19

be an expert at making maps, but,

27:22

you know, if he kind of describes

27:24

to a person who is really good

27:26

at making maps, Devin Ru, who kind

27:28

of helps design them, you know, they

27:30

both together can make this really, really,

27:32

really, really cool thing. Well, and do

27:34

you have any yeah, sorry. I was

27:36

going to say, that's one of my

27:38

favorite things is I will take commissions

27:40

for fantasy maps and most of them

27:42

come from other authors. And that's so

27:44

like it's so much fun because most

27:46

of the time they just hey, these

27:49

are the really important points to the

27:51

story, there's something up in the north,

27:53

there's something here, whatever, and they'll just

27:55

sort of let me like fill things

27:57

in, and obviously I check in, hey,

27:59

are you okay with this mountain range

28:01

here, is this going to cause problems,

28:03

whatever, but nine times out of ten,

28:05

it's, they're just like, I just, I

28:07

need the world to be more full,

28:09

and I know the different areas, and

28:11

I know what's important, but there's so

28:13

much else that like, that like, I

28:16

just having to like, like, like, like,

28:18

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

28:20

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

28:22

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

28:24

like, like, Yeah, we had Devin make

28:26

the world map for the setting that

28:28

we kind of collaboratively made through the

28:30

podcast. And yeah, I only was like,

28:32

really, the only thing we've defined is

28:34

this really big town in the middle

28:36

and kind of where the topography is.

28:38

Cool. And then the whole thing's just

28:40

named and I'm like, I don't even

28:42

know what these names mean. This is

28:45

awesome. I totally totally

28:47

get that. This is just a random thought.

28:49

But like, how much are you, because it

28:51

sounds like you're making a lot of maps

28:53

digitally, how much are you making maps physically

28:56

these days? And like, would you have any,

28:58

if so, like, do you have any tips

29:00

for anyone that like wants to make like,

29:02

ha ha, and like throw something out onto

29:05

the table? So I do make most of

29:07

mine digitally. I've done hand drawn. Now my

29:09

thing is mostly like world maps. So I've

29:11

tried to make battle maps. They never turn

29:14

out how I want them to look. But

29:16

I have, and I would like to keep

29:18

playing around with it. They just never look

29:20

as cool as I think they could be.

29:23

But that also might just be me. I

29:25

like the aesthetics of things. I want my

29:27

maps to look pretty. But I have done

29:30

hand drawn before. They're there. I can't say

29:32

they're the best thing in the world, but

29:34

I have. And I'm actually right now doing

29:36

a collaborative project with a couple of other

29:39

mapmakers and they all do hand drawn. And

29:41

we're gonna do like one giant map that

29:43

we all like draw like a portion of

29:45

it and put it together. I'm very excited

29:48

for that. I'm way out of my comfort

29:50

zone with it. It is way above what

29:52

I'm used to. It is like it's hand

29:54

drawn. But I'm also very excited. I think

29:57

it's going to be really cool. I think

29:59

collaborations like that are really cool. So we'll

30:01

see how that turns out. I'm certain. mine

30:03

will be the least pretty looking there, but

30:06

it is okay. That's okay. Look at old

30:08

maps. Look at old maps. First off, look

30:10

at the current world map. Apparently that's like

30:12

not to scale in any way shape or

30:15

form. No, the Mercator projection is terrible. Yeah.

30:17

So don't worry about it. You know, yeah.

30:19

Some people make their maps by pouring like

30:21

rice or like coffee beans onto a piece

30:24

of paper and tracing it and I've done

30:26

that before and it's just a good way

30:28

to kind of just let yourself be creative.

30:30

I've seen a lot of people do it

30:33

with dice and if they just have handfuls

30:35

of dice whatever and then like you know

30:37

if a certain number lands somewhere well then

30:39

hey that's a town and you kind of

30:42

just got to work within those boundaries and

30:44

it gives you just an outlet to be

30:46

creative. Yeah a blank piece of paper of

30:48

staring you in the face can be kind

30:51

of intimidating especially like you said if you

30:53

don't know where to start so if just

30:55

doing it randomly and then that gives you

30:57

and you know a place to start and

31:00

you can still adjust it as you need

31:02

to that's perfect it reminds me of like

31:04

if you're playing a pre-made adventure or something

31:06

in and it's got a few different story

31:09

points and you just want to mold it

31:11

into you know like reading this story can

31:13

give you an idea and then you can

31:15

say oh actually I'm going to tweak it

31:18

this little part right to make it more

31:20

interesting for my group or with a map

31:22

you know I like how the the dice

31:24

have randomly laid down but I actually want

31:27

to swap this thing and that thing and

31:29

it makes it a lot there are a

31:31

lot fewer decisions when you're doing it that

31:33

way, you don't get the decision fatigue of,

31:36

okay, like, what do I start? Okay, what's

31:38

here? What's there? What's there? You know, and

31:40

it kind of kind of narrow things down

31:42

for you a lot, which I find helps

31:45

the creative process for sure. Okay, I had

31:47

to look it up so that I can

31:49

attribute things correctly. In 2018, James L. Sutter,

31:51

who was like big into Pathfinder, one of

31:54

the funniest things he threw out there was,

31:56

if I turned in this map, I would

31:58

get basically would get thrown back at me

32:01

and he's looking at the actual map of

32:03

New Orleans So the idea that like things

32:05

can always be weird weirder. Like you have,

32:07

because you also think of magic and everything

32:10

or just like the astronomical broken nature of

32:12

economies that are any adventurer walking in anywhere

32:14

and could in theory just buy everything that

32:16

everyone owns. Like I can just walk in

32:19

and own this town. hundreds of gold, thousands

32:21

of gold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I

32:23

remember there was a local town near me,

32:25

I think the population was very small, but

32:28

you could buy the whole township for $500,000,

32:30

which sounds like a lot, but it's also

32:32

not that much for some people. And you

32:34

just be like, I own the town and

32:37

now it's Neilville, like, done. But yeah, so

32:39

it's also to say just like, is there

32:41

somewhere that you really like? that you go

32:43

to? Is it your own town that you

32:46

live in? Is it the town you grew

32:48

up in? Is it that you love New

32:50

York? Is it that you think Tokyo is

32:52

amazing? Just look at the map that they

32:55

have going on and honestly you're going to

32:57

get very inspired, if not very confused. Yeah.

32:59

For instance, George R. R. Martin Wright just

33:01

took Ireland and flipped it upside down and

33:04

stuck it on England and said, this is

33:06

now Westeros. Perfect. The map of Middle Earth

33:08

is not geographically accurate. And anyway, and I'm

33:10

over, I get slammed because my tectonic plates

33:13

wouldn't make sense. I'm like, I don't want

33:15

to tell you. We just got that much

33:17

time on there. Geologists, come on. We could

33:19

probably have a whole podcast episode about like,

33:22

what, hmm, that's the line. That's the line

33:24

where we're just not cool with magic anymore.

33:26

Because it's like, last time I checked the

33:28

MCU just was the whole earth's just egg

33:31

for an eternal and the thing kind of

33:33

hatched a little. Didn't blow up the world,

33:35

which I have problems with. But you know

33:37

what, I also have to accept. that there's

33:40

people running around with superpowers. So maybe the

33:42

egg works differently than the earth that we

33:44

live on. I know that's wild to think,

33:46

but maybe that's just how it is in

33:49

the MCU. There's definitely people

33:51

out there who really

33:53

care about who really not

33:55

splitting your rivers not splitting into or

33:58

being rain shadow in in

34:00

this particular part or it

34:02

doesn't make sense for

34:04

this or that. or

34:07

I wouldn't, especially if

34:09

you're if new to this,

34:11

I would not get

34:13

caught up in caught up

34:16

in the. the details I would just make

34:18

something cool. cool and

34:20

said, said magic you know who

34:22

you know, who cares? Like this is just

34:24

a fantasy world for you and your friends. you and

34:26

play in. to maybe a few

34:28

other people. So few other not that

34:30

important in the scheme of things.

34:33

Mm -hmm. important in the scheme of things.

34:35

So okay in your career of

34:37

writing and map and that kind of thing. kind

34:39

of thing, can you think of any any exciting

34:41

moments had that have you've had that have

34:43

been related to your Like maybe even if if

34:45

it's just like the first time you

34:48

saw it in print in whatever, you know,

34:50

you know, what's kind of been the most fun

34:52

you've had with had with maps stories? stories. I

34:54

had, well I'm trying to, I'm trying to

34:56

think of of like just cool

34:58

things. I had someone. I

35:01

On TikTok, I don't remember his name

35:03

pretty I I'm pretty sure he stopped

35:05

making these, but he he he

35:07

made these 3D printed maps and he he

35:09

sent me like a 3D printed

35:12

version of one of my maps of

35:14

just like as just like a, hey, I I think your

35:16

stuff is cool. And of course of course I talked

35:18

about it forever. now like I said I can't like I said,

35:20

I can't find him anymore. So I'm pretty

35:22

sure he stepped down from doing that. But that

35:24

was really cool to see that and to to

35:26

my my map. as a a that was

35:29

like a cool moment. That was like a cool

35:31

moment. just And then I would

35:33

say with other creators, with other creators

35:35

like the map making community. of

35:37

all, like is so, a first of all,

35:39

us are just like lot of us are just

35:41

like on a discord together, just hanging

35:44

out. it's so so much fun. then like I said,

35:46

then like I said, doing projects collaboration stuff,

35:48

I've done I've done like remakes with people

35:50

where we each make a map and

35:52

then we trade. trade and then remake

35:54

each each other's map. which is a which is a

35:56

lot of fun and shows you other people's styles. We We

35:58

just remake it in our own own styles. see, okay, well,

36:01

here's how they did that, that's cool,

36:03

I like the way you named that

36:05

place. So, honestly, I just think the

36:07

mat-making community is just a cool thing

36:09

to be part of. It inspires me

36:11

to I'm not making a map. I

36:13

can't do it. I believe in you.

36:15

I know. It does. I don't enjoy

36:17

how much it makes me want to

36:20

play with incarnate again. So I do

36:22

it. I dare you. It's hours and

36:24

hours and hours there. Yeah. I love

36:26

it. Encarnate has my whole heart. I

36:28

say this every time. Yeah. I love

36:30

you. It's

36:32

so good, and like I said, it's done

36:34

the right way, and again, I know at

36:36

least one of the people that made it,

36:38

and he was awesome. You know, maybe I'll

36:40

reach out, see if we can get him

36:43

on, and... You said... We'll just go from

36:45

there. He's very busy. With a card, it's

36:47

a prize. Understandably, tell him I say hi,

36:49

tell him I'm his biggest fan. I will,

36:51

absolutely. So one of the other things we

36:53

want to do is, what are some homework

36:55

that we can give people to go and

36:57

experience? Like, I think of media and the

36:59

only thing I can think of is like,

37:01

they're like, we're going to travel. It's like

37:03

a little plane with the dots going across

37:05

the map. I don't think that's what I

37:07

mean. But what are some... Like an Indiana

37:09

Jones when this, whatever he flies somewhere, yeah.

37:13

So I've got some ideas here. My

37:15

ideas just stem from like fantasy books

37:17

that I remember reading as a kid

37:19

that I really liked and that had

37:21

good maps. So I feel like that's

37:23

a good place to start is just

37:26

looking at maps. I'm sure one of

37:28

you will also say you should start

37:30

making it. them. Some of my favorite

37:32

are the Westmark trilogy from Lloyd Alexander.

37:34

He had some really cool maps in

37:36

the front of his books. Zanth, the

37:38

Zanth series by Pierce Anthony, Aragon, by

37:40

Christopher Paulini, and that series has some

37:43

really good maps in it. And then

37:45

also Lord of the Rings, you know,

37:47

classic, like we said, doesn't, the map

37:49

is kind of not great, but also

37:51

maps back in the day weren't great

37:53

anyway. So it's okay if your maps

37:55

not great. yeah, those are some of

37:58

the maps that I've really enjoyed. You

38:00

can Google them really easily and find

38:02

them and kind of get some ideas

38:04

for your own worlds. The good news

38:06

is if it's a series that your

38:08

players haven't read, you can just steal

38:10

that map. They won't know any different.

38:12

And it'll work out great for you.

38:15

No one's gonna know. They're going to

38:17

know. How would they know? How would

38:19

they know? To tag on to that

38:21

too, I'm reading Brandon Sanderson right now.

38:23

And his world building and his maps

38:25

are phenomenal. They're beautiful. The maps look

38:27

gorgeous. The world buildings are fantastic. The

38:29

world building is fantastic. So I highly

38:32

recommend those. What are you reading right

38:34

now? I'm on oath bringer. Halfway through

38:36

oath bringer. I'm hoping to finish Rhythm

38:38

of War before the new one comes

38:40

out the end of the end of

38:42

the end of the year. Nice. 10

38:44

minutes down the road for me, so

38:46

I'll wave when I drive past. Exactly.

38:49

I saw him at Comic-Con last year.

38:51

He was, I'm in Tampa and Florida,

38:53

so he was at Tampa Bay Comic-Con,

38:55

and I just like, it was way

38:57

too expensive to go try to get

38:59

a signature, so I kind of just

39:01

like, there he is, there he is,

39:03

I see him. He's real. Had a

39:06

buddy who worked at the warehouse for

39:08

a little bit. And I've had some

39:10

other friends who help him run his

39:12

convention locally, so I should probably try

39:14

to get in on that. My goal

39:16

is to go to his Dragon Still

39:18

Convention next year, next December. Well, if

39:21

you do, come say hi when you're

39:23

here. I will. I would love to.

39:25

I genuinely think that would be, and

39:27

like as a book signing too, like

39:29

that is phenomenal for fantasy authors. Brandon

39:31

is just such like a, he's so

39:33

great, like two other fantasy authors, he

39:35

wants to see other fantasy authors succeed.

39:38

His team is so kind of spoken

39:40

with some of them before, and they're

39:42

just so encouraging, I'm like, we just,

39:44

you're gonna do great. Yeah, there's there's

39:46

a reason he's got such passionate fans

39:48

is because he's also turns out so

39:50

far been a pretty good person. So

39:52

if that's nice. All right, Neil, what

39:55

homework you got for us. So I

39:57

was. trying to think of a way

39:59

to do this, and it's a little

40:01

untenable to do it physically. But what

40:03

I've noticed is like, depending on where

40:05

you are, the map has a different

40:07

reason for existing. So one of the

40:09

important things to think is like, okay,

40:12

so what is the purpose of your

40:14

map? Is it really just to illustrate

40:16

what the world kind of looks like?

40:18

But even when you do that, it's

40:20

from a certain perspective. So the idea

40:22

is, look up the types of maps.

40:24

I'm uncomfortable with this second screen I

40:26

have and the number of different things

40:29

I've seen, because there's one that says

40:31

thematic map. I'm not going to click

40:33

on it. You dear listener, you go

40:35

click on it. Like, what's a Coroplas

40:37

map? I don't know, but it's an

40:39

option. vegetation map.

40:41

So there's other ways to think

40:43

about like your mapping and especially

40:45

like the seeing what other people

40:48

have done because it's so important

40:50

that they've spent possibly their lives

40:52

learning how to make specific types

40:54

of maps to produce for our

40:56

real world. So is one of

40:58

those mapping types more important to

41:00

a specific culture in your world

41:02

or a specific order like a

41:04

clerical order or like they could

41:06

literally have a regional map for

41:08

different religions and they're tracking it

41:10

because they're tracking it to know

41:12

like oh like basically we can't

41:14

go over there or if we

41:16

do we need to know we

41:18

need to bring X thing with

41:20

us as a offering or yeah

41:22

so it could just be a

41:24

wide array of maps and thinking

41:26

about why you're making it and

41:28

you can do it by apparently

41:30

like what's a dynamic map does

41:32

it move I don't know but

41:34

again I'm not going to click

41:36

on it right now. So look

41:39

at other map types. That's my

41:41

overall suggestion. Last but not least,

41:43

Kate. What homework do you have

41:45

for listeners out there about making

41:47

maps? Like Neil said, it could

41:49

be like stuff to read or

41:51

watch or it could be stuff

41:53

to do whatever you think. Yeah,

41:55

I mean, I have said this

41:57

already, but copying other people's watching

41:59

videos, watching videos, just not thinking.

42:01

about like why everything needs to

42:03

work at or how they just

42:05

getting getting the pen and paper

42:07

kind of thing and like let's

42:09

just see what I like what

42:11

I don't like what I can

42:13

play with and eventually you'll come

42:15

out with your own style and

42:17

with you know hey I really

42:19

prefer regional maps over world maps

42:21

or I prefer city maps or

42:23

whatever and that all just comes

42:25

with experimenting and trying things and

42:28

just just actually doing it. Agreed.

42:30

Actually make a map, guys. Actually

42:32

do it. If you don't have

42:34

one for your world, you should

42:36

just do it. Like Kate said,

42:38

incarnates free, you know, just get

42:40

on there and start clicking around

42:42

and see what you want. That's

42:44

what I did. That's how I

42:46

started clicking around. That's what I

42:48

did. That's how I started clicking

42:50

around. That's a perfect, nice. Please,

42:52

yeah, go take this, rice and

42:54

ice. It's your cartography. Oh, there's

42:56

a map talk. There's a, I

42:58

don't, do we call it maptop

43:00

or cartographer talk? Because I've seen

43:02

that too. Carto long. Part of

43:04

talk? No, it's got to be

43:06

map, map talk. Come on, you

43:08

can't, cartographer talk. That's to, cartographer,

43:10

talk, our talk, refer, yes. We

43:12

did it at the same time.

43:14

It's got to be right. And

43:17

the other very important question we have is

43:20

where can people go to find everything that

43:22

you're doing online, to go to get your

43:24

books, that you are the proud owner of

43:26

all of that material, that sounds like it

43:28

was a fight, that gives me flashbacks and

43:30

fights I've had in my own life, so

43:32

good on you for being the sole owner

43:34

of your own stuff. Thank you. So my

43:36

website is katkorsak.com, real is you to remember.

43:38

And then I have my Instagram with his

43:40

author, korsak, and then my maps are over

43:43

on my old Instagram, which is writer, K,

43:45

K. I did that because the algorithm absolutely

43:47

hated me posting books and maps at the

43:49

same time. It despised it. So I said,

43:51

okay, whatever, whatever you say. But that is.

43:53

actually working pretty well because I'm really connecting

43:55

with a lot of map creators over on

43:57

the map one and a lot of other

43:59

writers over on the author one. And then

44:01

they cross over all the time. But those

44:03

are kind of the main places to find

44:05

me, same usernames on TikTok, and that's pretty

44:08

much it. Maybe I'll expand to YouTube eventually.

44:10

We'll get there. And your new book? Yes,

44:12

Guardian. Guardian comes out November 16th and it

44:14

is available for preorder on Amazon, Barnes &

44:16

Noble, Waterstones, Biximilian, anywhere. I think Walmart has

44:18

it wherever you can buy books. You can

44:20

preorder Guardian. Give us a little taste. What's

44:22

Guardian going to be about? So it follows

44:24

a story of an Alvin soldier who is

44:26

yes, over there, who is trying to protect

44:28

his kingdom, which is the only kingdom in

44:31

the realm that still has access to this

44:33

ancient magic. He finds himself fighting the God

44:35

of destruction, who's looking to take over this

44:37

kingdom, and eventually finds out that sort of

44:39

the history that he thought he knew wasn't

44:41

as accurate as he believed it to be.

44:43

Classic. For context, what like what age range

44:45

are your books geared towards? I consider it

44:47

to be new adult so like kind of

44:49

college age it's not it doesn't have anything

44:51

explicit in it besides just fantasy battles and

44:54

that sort of thing but I mean the

44:56

characters are older so that's why I consider

44:58

it to be new adult perfect well awesome

45:00

thank you for great stock and stuffer yes

45:02

good call and of course we'll stay in

45:04

contact who knows we may have to have

45:06

you make a map at some point but

45:08

if nothing else I am sure we'll have

45:10

to have to have you back on I

45:12

appreciate it. Thank you guys so much for

45:14

having me. As always, we want to thank

45:17

Kate for coming on, spending some time with

45:19

us, telling us about how she's been going

45:21

through the process of being an independent author,

45:23

as well as making some of her own

45:25

maps, and of course, shouting the good word

45:27

of none other than incarnate. And of course,

45:29

if you have a way that you've been

45:31

starting your maps and you want to tell

45:33

us about it, the best way, as always,

45:35

is to send us in emailing email at

45:37

Dungeon Master Block. you see fit, head

45:40

of course if you

45:42

see fit head over

45:44

to your choice, of choice

45:46

rating a rating and

45:48

review as it will

45:50

always help us of course, if

45:52

course over you head

45:54

over to blue sky Instagram,

45:56

and instagram threads, you in

45:58

between threads you should

46:00

be able to find

46:03

us Block or search Dungeon or

46:05

search dungeon will come and

46:07

we will come up

46:09

and of course we

46:11

are always a proud

46:13

member of the block

46:15

party podcast network where

46:17

you can check out

46:19

other shows like shows like

46:21

club Venture Club, Not and dragons

46:23

and daughters and hopefully

46:26

more soon hopefully more soon. And

46:28

you for listening to

46:30

to The Dungeon Master's where we

46:32

come to talk about

46:34

the we master talk most

46:36

important person in the

46:38

game most only person

46:40

capable of playing the killing

46:42

characters and lowering the

46:44

ego of everyone else

46:46

at the table lowering the

46:48

ego of everyone else at the table. I'm

46:51

good luck night. Good luck.

46:53

on Master Master. It's

47:12

not inspiration it's not wisdom

47:14

and it's bad advice it's bad them

47:16

them, make map. And if it's wrong sounds

47:18

like a them problem so

48:04

Goodbye.