0:00

Welcome back to the

0:02

Dungeon Master's Block, the

0:05

place where we come

0:07

to talk about the

0:10

Dungeon Master, the

0:12

most important person

0:14

in the game.

0:17

With every conversation

0:19

we hope to

0:21

inspire as many

0:23

as possible to

0:25

keep on Dungeon Mastering. Moniac

0:28

and today we will be

0:30

talking with Clara Daly and

0:32

Hannah Rose about designing as

0:34

a dungeon master. It's a

0:36

great conversation where we look at

0:38

what they're doing at the high-end production

0:40

level. Honestly, if you haven't looked at

0:43

the magazine that they're making Horizons, you

0:45

are doing yourself a disservice, but we

0:47

take the knowledge base that they have

0:50

from working with amazing people in the

0:52

industry to learn more about how we

0:54

can make stuff at our table. And

0:57

I'm one of your other hosts. DiM Derek,

0:59

aka How Not to DiM. Hill, would you

1:01

like to hear one of our beautiful

1:03

listeners' reviews they have just left us

1:05

on iTunes? Yes, I would love to

1:07

hear it. From Zalwin, five stars. I

1:10

have listened to every episode. There

1:12

is truly a plethora of information

1:14

found within these tombs of knowledge.

1:16

You will find tips, ideas, and

1:18

friends sharing ideas and conversations about

1:20

a hobby they love and share.

1:22

Even if you're not a DM

1:24

or GM, you'll find friendly advice

1:26

here. Oh, thank you so much

1:28

for that review. We appreciate it.

1:30

You heard that right, everyone. It

1:33

doesn't matter which side of the screen

1:35

you're on. Come on down. I mean,

1:37

listen, evil players. This is the podcast

1:39

for you. If you want to turn

1:41

the tables on your dungeon master, we

1:44

have hundreds of episodes so that

1:46

you can learn exactly how to do

1:48

it. You're not wrong. The only other thing

1:50

I have to talk about, Neil, before we

1:52

jump into the meat, is our good friend

1:54

Kate Corsak. You will remember we talked with

1:57

her about maps at the end of last

1:59

year, middle, to end of last year

2:01

sometime in the fall and winter.

2:03

Kate talked then about how she

2:05

had her new book coming out,

2:08

which she was very excited about.

2:10

So I want to direct all

2:12

of you to kickstarter.com where you

2:14

can find Kate's. Kickstarter project she's

2:16

got going for book one of

2:18

her Guardian series. The project is

2:20

already funded which is super exciting.

2:23

She's already raised a bunch of

2:25

money to make this book possible.

2:27

So if you are interested in

2:29

fantasy, you want to get some

2:31

ideas for your home game, you

2:33

want to help support some of

2:35

our awesome guests. This is a

2:38

great spot to do it. So

2:40

head on to Kickstarter.com and search

2:42

for Guardian or search for Kate

2:44

Corsak. That's K-A-T-O-R-S-A-K. back in the

2:46

day we had so much fun

2:48

and we're really excited to read

2:50

your book when it comes out.

2:53

Anything you can do to support

2:55

an independent author which Kate is

2:57

if you've listened to the episode

2:59

she went through her own woes

3:01

to learn that maybe a little

3:03

independence can go a long way.

3:05

Well Neil now that we've got

3:07

all of those awesome announcements out

3:10

of the way let's head to

3:12

the meat. Why can't we

3:14

have some meat? The flight means back

3:16

on the menu boys! Hannah and Clara,

3:19

thank you so much for joining

3:21

us. We are really excited to

3:23

chat about all things Wild Mage

3:25

and then also all things DMing

3:27

and how you know all this

3:30

can apply. So we would love

3:32

if you could both just tell

3:34

us a little bit about yourselves.

3:36

Some of your history with tabletop

3:39

role-playing games and Wild Mage specifically.

3:41

I'll go first. I'm Hannah Rose.

3:43

I am a game designer, editor,

3:45

now art director, and dabbling and

3:48

layout, of course, always learning new

3:50

things, which was part of the

3:52

reason that Clara and I decided

3:54

to found this company Wild Range

3:57

Press together. Claire Daley. I am

3:59

by day a digital director and

4:01

outside of that I am an

4:03

illustrator and graphic designer and I've

4:06

been playing 5E for quite a

4:08

while and I have a deep

4:10

interest in it and fortunately found

4:12

my way into doing work for

4:15

Table Top and founding the Wild

4:17

Maid Press with Hannah. Yeah, two

4:19

names that absolutely, if you put

4:21

into Google, or you just start

4:24

searching your shelf, I pointed it

4:26

to shelf, I don't know who

4:28

that's for. It's not even for

4:30

you guys on the call because

4:33

I have a background. But if

4:35

we were to go to my

4:37

shelf behind me and start picking

4:39

up some books, some of my

4:42

favorite books, these are two names

4:44

that you will absolutely find. And

4:46

because of that, my question that

4:48

will always get the caveat, is

4:50

there anything that you're currently working

4:53

on that you can tell us

4:55

about? Well, we are absolutely working

4:57

on upcoming issues of Horizons, which

4:59

is our digital first magazine in

5:02

for tabletop art PCs. So we

5:04

have three articles a quarter for

5:06

fifth edition D&D and then a

5:08

rotating featured system and a nerdy

5:11

off-ed. So yeah, we have issues,

5:13

we've have two issues that are

5:15

out now and issue three is

5:17

coming in April. And we've got

5:20

stuff being lined up and designed

5:22

for many future issues. Outside of

5:24

that, we're exploring some other larger

5:26

projects, but nothing that we can

5:29

talk about yet. Yeah, that falls

5:31

in the second category. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

5:33

Okay. So one of my favorite

5:35

surprise questions that we have, and

5:38

we always come back to it,

5:40

because I think it's like really

5:42

like... focuses in on kind of

5:44

who you are both as a

5:47

player and a person is if

5:49

you had one spell that you

5:51

could actually cast in your real

5:53

life, what would it be? I

5:56

have answered this a couple different

5:58

ways over time and I second

6:00

guess it every time. That's why

6:02

I like re-asking you because I

6:05

feel like I'm just I'm just

6:07

as confused as I was the

6:09

first time I was asked that

6:11

question. I feel like there's almost

6:13

a moral there's a moral imperative

6:16

to answer cure wounds or spare

6:18

the dying. I mean or even

6:20

wish though then you start edging

6:22

into playing God territory. But Yeah,

6:25

I feel like there's a moral

6:27

imperative to think about what if

6:29

we could use healing magic, which

6:31

is just such a generic form

6:34

of healing, so many hills, with

6:36

very little medical knowledge required. So

6:38

that's my usual answer. I'm gonna

6:40

go slightly off my usual answer,

6:43

but it's still pretty common. I'm

6:45

going through polymorph, because that's fun.

6:47

You can do so much. If

6:49

I could pick any class to

6:52

be, I would be a druid.

6:54

There you go. That would be

6:56

cool. I feel like Neil, are

6:58

you going with the classic? Are

7:01

you going to switch it up?

7:03

My classic is always, and I

7:05

got this from my father, who

7:07

is not the nerdiest of guys,

7:10

who's a very car guy, but

7:12

if you were ever asked what

7:14

super power, like the fact that

7:16

he had ever thought of this

7:19

idea and was like always locked

7:21

in. The idea that like any

7:23

superpower he felt he could have,

7:25

he would always want to be

7:28

to speak every language. He said

7:30

that the benefit that you would

7:32

gain from that is also not,

7:34

it's also not this thing where

7:36

you become this thing that everyone

7:39

potentially seeks out or tries to

7:41

like leverage or fight for or

7:43

exploit. It's just kind of that

7:45

thing of. You're just a living

7:48

Rosetta Stone at all times. And

7:50

so comprehend languages is my go-to

7:52

answer. That's a really cool answer.

7:54

Find it really fascinating because as

7:57

long as like a place has

7:59

a written language too, and I

8:01

could... it, I could then communicate

8:03

with it, even if it were

8:06

to just be writing. So like,

8:08

it is my answer. It's comprehended

8:10

languages. That's so cool. In the

8:12

past, I've gone very altruistic and

8:15

I'm going to go totally opposite

8:17

today and I'm going to say

8:19

control weather for selfish reasons and

8:21

just always be able to have

8:24

whatever weather I want. So, so

8:26

there we go. I could. you

8:28

know in my off-season go and

8:30

maybe like make it snow a

8:33

little bit more in places that

8:35

need it or rain that could

8:37

be nice but then also I

8:39

could you know have nice weather

8:42

wherever I went which could be

8:44

kind of cool so it's a

8:46

little bit of both worlds. I

8:48

always wonder if control weather has

8:51

like fantasy in-world implications if you

8:53

are moving the weather pattern what's

8:55

happening on the other side of

8:57

the mountain range? Then that's my

8:59

same issue with like not wanting

9:02

to actually choose some and spells

9:04

because I'm like, I don't know.

9:06

I don't know what the answer

9:08

is. Where are they coming from?

9:11

Do they go back? Are they

9:13

just going back after they're dead?

9:15

I can't do it. I can't.

9:17

I can't be that guy. Too

9:20

many existential crises to do. Yeah.

9:22

I get it. No, I'm out.

9:24

All right. So let's dive in

9:26

now to the topic of hand.

9:29

So we would love to chat

9:31

a little bit about. Wild Mage

9:33

Press, what you've been doing, kind

9:35

of how it came about, and

9:38

then we'll delve more into kind

9:40

of the lessons that you've learned

9:42

in your history in the publication

9:44

business and how it applies to

9:47

running games. So yeah, let's start

9:49

with that. Tell us a little

9:51

bit about Wild Mage Press and

9:53

how it came to be. the

9:56

art director and editor for Taldori

9:58

Reborn and happened to need a

10:00

bit of art, initially some spots,

10:02

some items, and it kind of

10:05

grew from there. And we worked

10:07

together, we worked really well together,

10:09

formed a friendship, formed a really

10:11

good collaboration, and that expanded into

10:14

when she was working with MCDM,

10:16

hired me to do some work,

10:18

and beyond that, it was definitely

10:20

a friendship. We would in our

10:22

off time talk about things like,

10:25

what about this cursed item? What

10:27

about, you know, how could we

10:29

push the rules of things and

10:31

just coming up with silly stuff

10:34

that was never going to get

10:36

published, but realizing we had this

10:38

great collaboration, this shared interest, and

10:40

it was beyond just tabletop, but

10:43

really grew into being friends. And

10:45

from there, she broached at some

10:47

point, like, hey, I'm looking at.

10:49

creating this pub do you with

10:52

your skills that really complement mine?

10:54

Want to join and build this

10:56

up and here we are. You

10:58

can't buy that. It's the person

11:01

you find finding the person that

11:03

is excited about all of your

11:05

ideas but also willing to say

11:07

that they're not you know like

11:10

yes but no like in here's

11:12

the here's the reason why it's

11:14

it's this thing that like I

11:16

could work any job I have

11:19

realized that I can figure it

11:21

out it's not but finding good

11:23

people and like that's it I

11:25

think and what echoes out of

11:28

that is how good the product

11:30

is so absolutely I'm glad you

11:32

found each other and we get

11:34

to read and so many different

11:37

people get to read the benefits

11:39

of that yeah for my part

11:41

I knew I wanted to do

11:43

something like this and After having

11:46

been in the industry for many

11:48

years as a designer and an

11:50

editor and moving up to leading

11:52

projects like Taldory were born and

11:54

being the managing editor of Arcadia,

11:57

I was ready to continue in

11:59

that leadership role and, you know,

12:01

be able to pick who I

12:03

want to collaborate with and hire

12:06

artists and work with all of

12:08

these amazing talented people. And I

12:10

knew that I didn't want to

12:12

just do something on Patreon on

12:15

my own. You know, that's really

12:17

cool. Lots of people have amazing

12:19

content on Patreon, but I would

12:21

be really lonely doing that. And

12:24

I wanted somebody who was a

12:26

co-founder, who could be a leader,

12:28

who had the experience and leadership

12:31

skills and attention to detail and

12:33

desire to create something really high

12:35

quality. And so, yeah, I am

12:38

really lucky to have found all

12:40

of that in Clara. Yes, there are

12:42

so many questions I have and so

12:44

many answers I have at the same

12:46

time. It's difficult to like hone in.

12:48

And I know and I'm also trying

12:50

to like parse out like what have

12:52

we already talked about and what did

12:54

I listen to. But one of the

12:56

things that I was impressed by by

12:58

listening to some of the interviews that

13:00

you have already done is that it's

13:02

not that you necessarily approached it with

13:04

kind of what I feel like sometimes

13:06

happens in the TTRBG space is just

13:09

kind of this blind success of like

13:11

finding something it working well and sometimes

13:13

difficult the success you find because you

13:15

weren't like potentially prepared for it.

13:17

That is not how I feel because I

13:19

have heard the work that you did prior

13:21

to starting this and the two business degrees

13:23

that I have were just like, oh, oh,

13:26

oh, good job, good job. And then it

13:28

was like, oh, that too? Oh, wow. So

13:30

yeah, doing the due diligence beforehand was something

13:32

that I was really impressed by. And part

13:34

of me is wanting to know, like what

13:37

was it the previous work that you had

13:39

both done to like recognize that these are

13:41

some of the things to set yourselves up

13:43

for success is just kind of like that

13:45

where it where it came from? There's

13:47

definitely stuff that we have similarly

13:49

observed in the industry where I

13:51

see a lot of times companies

13:53

and organizations here are like,

13:56

we're creating stuff for games, we're creating

13:58

stuff for fun, this is fun. and

14:00

fun fun fun fun we don't

14:02

want any of that stuffy business

14:04

things we don't want to use

14:06

project management tools and calendars and

14:08

like you know rack our career

14:11

goals and you know and we

14:13

just want somebody who can do

14:15

social media and graphics and marketing

14:17

and run a Kickstarter and do

14:19

the work of five different people

14:21

and pay them 12 dollars an

14:23

hour. Anyway, so there's a lot

14:25

of people who are really excited

14:28

about creating things and I think

14:30

don't want to think about the

14:32

business side of things because it

14:34

is scary and unknown because it

14:36

feels too corporate because I mean

14:38

this is such a tiny tiny

14:40

industry compared to pretty much anything

14:43

else. So we have both observed

14:45

that and knew that I mean

14:47

we've both had you know I

14:49

used to be in tech. Clara,

14:51

as she mentioned, has a career

14:53

as a digital director and has

14:55

also been in publishing and we

14:58

knew that we wanted to leverage

15:00

knowledge from outside the industry to,

15:02

yeah, make those deliberate choices. And

15:04

I think from my side, especially

15:06

when I was introduced to Arcadia,

15:08

one of the things that really

15:10

resonated with me, both as a

15:13

GM, And as, you know, someone

15:15

publishing an art and all of

15:17

that was the play testing. Like

15:19

that wasn't just someone coming up

15:21

with homebrew and putting it up

15:23

without it being edited or put

15:25

through its, you know, steps or

15:27

anything like that. Like, Arcadia was

15:30

going through those steps to really

15:32

make sure that players were getting

15:34

feedback and that was going through

15:36

editing and all of that resonated

15:38

with me heavily. before I really

15:40

understood like I at the time

15:42

before really being immersed in this

15:45

was just a GM like buying

15:47

stuff off dams gold and wherever

15:49

like I didn't necessarily understand what

15:51

was going on. what was bad,

15:53

why I felt it was good,

15:55

why I was feeling it was

15:57

lacking, that play testing meant so

16:00

much, and it's kind of much

16:02

like an IT, that invisible back

16:04

end where you're doing your due

16:06

diligence, and if you're doing it

16:08

right, the end product is seamless,

16:10

and the user doesn't have to

16:12

know why, but you've put in

16:15

the work. And I think Hannah

16:17

really... came to all of this

16:19

with that ethos and understanding and

16:21

that backlog of like listen to

16:23

do this right and to separate

16:25

ourselves from just I had an

16:27

idea like me with my silly

16:30

hats that are cursed like cool

16:32

but we're not just putting that

16:34

out there like there there are

16:36

steps that we need to go

16:38

through to make sure this play

16:40

tested for the end user and

16:42

so the GM is proud and

16:44

able to put this on their

16:47

table and it's balanced. It's like

16:49

you've done this before because that's

16:51

going to lead us directly into

16:53

the topic that we're looking to

16:55

do. I like to call it

16:57

the button theory. Most people know

16:59

like I need a button and

17:02

I needed to do this. Very

17:04

few people understand the work it

17:06

takes to make the button work.

17:08

They also don't necessarily need to

17:10

know it for them to make

17:12

the button function. I can get

17:14

in a car and I can

17:17

push the little button that starts

17:19

it and I because of the

17:21

way I grew up in the

17:23

things that I've known. I can

17:25

tell you kind of everything that

17:27

happens after that and all that

17:29

leads to it. Most people just

17:32

go the button and it's car

17:34

on and I drive and that's

17:36

but that's all they needed and

17:38

so providing that button and I

17:40

think that's leading us into the

17:42

conversation about like all of the

17:44

things that happen behind it so

17:46

that when you do present something

17:49

that is home brew to your

17:51

campaign to your world to your

17:53

table to your players or they've

17:55

brought something to you. and just

17:57

using the same analogy of the

17:59

cursed hats, like having the knowledge

18:01

to be able to make that

18:04

effective so that they're not disappointed.

18:06

either by it being too little

18:08

and the flip side, you're not

18:10

necessarily disappointed as the DM because

18:12

it's just way too powerful. And

18:14

you think to yourself, why did

18:16

I ever allow these cursed acts

18:19

into my game? I am now

18:21

cursed by my own cursed hoisted

18:23

by my own, by my own

18:25

cursed hat. Yeah, and you know,

18:27

to use your button analogy from

18:29

the button designer's perspective, right, we're

18:31

thinking about... where should that button

18:34

be placed? What is the icon

18:36

on it so that people have

18:38

an idea of what it does

18:40

if there are similar buttons that

18:42

do similar things or the same

18:44

button on a different you know

18:46

a different mechanism or a different

18:48

web page that should have the

18:51

same design? I'm really passionate about

18:53

providing the GM with the information

18:55

they need to make their experience

18:57

GMing as smooth and panic-free as

18:59

possible, right? There are always things

19:01

that the GM is going to

19:03

have to improvise. The whole point

19:06

of us handing something to the

19:08

GM as inspiration and as rules

19:10

isn't to allow for every scenario.

19:12

The GM's job is to improvise

19:14

and fill in those gaps, fill

19:16

in those gaps. But when I'm

19:18

editing an adventure or... you know,

19:21

deaf editing a first draft we

19:23

get, I'm always thinking about, okay,

19:25

if I'm the GM using this,

19:27

where might I get stuck? What

19:29

kind of questions might the players

19:31

ask that I feel like the

19:33

material should answer for me? And

19:36

if the material is answering that,

19:38

where's the best place for us

19:40

to put that answer to the

19:42

GM can easily see it when

19:44

they need it? And also additionally

19:46

to that, like where are we

19:48

intentionally leading the option to improvise?

19:50

Like this isn't just a set

19:53

and go and you don't have

19:55

any choices but to run. as

19:57

written, we're giving this material so

19:59

you have a starting point and

20:01

good parameters, but you as an

20:03

experienced GM can run with it,

20:05

change it, adapt it. Like we're

20:08

not so rigid that we don't

20:10

expect and want and want to

20:12

encourage GMs to be able to

20:14

change this as fitting to their

20:16

scenario or their situation. It makes

20:18

a lot of sense. It's good

20:20

to make sure there's enough latitude.

20:23

It's not like prescriptive, like you

20:25

have to do this, it has

20:27

to be this way, because that

20:29

inherently, like you said, Hannah, makes

20:31

it inflexible and, you know, we

20:33

know that DM's GMs have to

20:35

be flexible because players are, you

20:38

know, the largest chaos agents that

20:40

we deal with, right? It's the

20:42

constant change. I feel like it's

20:44

funny to me, whatever I am

20:46

comparing notes with another GM or

20:48

DM or players. and we've played

20:50

the same campaign the same scenario

20:52

whatever it is and like how

20:55

different our experiences were like we

20:57

befriended ex-nPC and and they were

20:59

you know they were great and

21:01

they were so helpful and then

21:03

the other groups like really we

21:05

hated that nPC and we kidnapped

21:07

them and you know sent them

21:10

to the nine hells and it's

21:12

you know it's it's just it's

21:14

funny to see the the range

21:16

of things that could happen with

21:18

all of that in mind I

21:20

would love to know from a

21:22

good design perspective both visually and

21:25

words wise, what do you look

21:27

for in pieces of design, you

21:29

know, specific stuff that people are

21:31

writing for the stuff that you're

21:33

publishing? How can you tell it's

21:35

going to be good or what

21:37

parameters do you give your writers

21:40

to make sure that they are

21:42

hitting those points to make it

21:44

easy to use, flexible, and also

21:46

informative enough that it's useful for

21:48

them? Yeah, great question. Two of

21:50

the main things we talk about

21:52

in our style guide are... clarity

21:55

and precision. So writing for role

21:57

playing games in general is a

21:59

Unique genre involves a mix of

22:01

presenting evocative descriptions, you know, with

22:03

the flavor, the imagination, the fantasy,

22:05

alongside mechanical details, that technical manual

22:07

part. Speaking of, you know, not

22:09

putting the onus on the GM,

22:12

I have an example in the

22:14

style guide about don't, don't make

22:16

the GM invent mechanics for your

22:18

ideas. if you are saying there

22:20

is a vast desert filled with

22:22

various hazards like ever shifting dunes

22:24

and sandstorms that strike with little

22:27

warning like you know it doesn't

22:29

need to be 300 words but

22:31

let's present some mechanics for that

22:33

let's tell the GM how do

22:35

those ever shifting dunes work where

22:37

are you going to find the

22:39

rules for this desert travel stuff

22:42

like that so it's so clarity

22:44

and precision and something that I

22:46

really work with authors on and

22:48

edit for and appreciate when an

22:50

author already knows how to do

22:52

because again you know sometimes we

22:54

need to add those things so

22:57

we're not putting the onus on

22:59

the GM to invent but that

23:01

means that saving the words for

23:03

what matters is important and especially

23:05

when it comes to layout. And

23:07

Claire from an art perspective how

23:09

do you make sure that the

23:11

art is evocative and interesting and

23:14

gives people more than just more

23:16

questions that they, you know, have

23:18

to answer themselves. I think a

23:20

lot of that comes from how

23:22

we craft the art orders. So

23:24

obviously the stage is set by

23:26

the folks who write the work,

23:29

but what we're then trying to

23:31

craft with the art order is

23:33

creating a setting, creating specificity, but

23:35

also, and I know this is

23:37

gonna sound kind of counterintuitive, but

23:39

specificity, but openness. So if there

23:41

is this great desert that Hannah

23:44

just mentioned, but there's also crystal

23:46

dunes, you know, erupting out of

23:48

it, we want to specify, you

23:50

know, that's malachite. that's coming out

23:52

of it. We want to give

23:54

a visual and a specificity that

23:56

is going to, even though the

23:59

GM might then change that to

24:01

be, oh actually that's garment, there

24:03

is a visual that they can

24:05

give their player, whether it's through

24:07

description that they're looking down real

24:09

quick and be like, alright, let

24:11

me look at this. And I

24:13

don't have to think my brainspace

24:16

is better spent on thinking about

24:18

all of the mechanics that I

24:20

already have going on, but that

24:22

specificity of... What do we want

24:24

this to be? Is it a

24:26

multi-tier desert? Is there something floating?

24:28

Are there sand dunes? Is this

24:31

actually a rocky beach type desert?

24:33

Is it not necessarily when you

24:35

say desert was something someone might

24:37

think? Is it not just red

24:39

dunes? Is it, you know, gray

24:41

and black sands of, you know,

24:43

something you might think along the

24:46

coast of Iceland? Is there just

24:48

giving that idea of very specific

24:50

color and texture and... elements of

24:52

existing features that someone might be

24:54

able to go like, oh, I

24:56

can think of something similar to

24:58

that in my head that sets

25:01

the setting is this, you know,

25:03

something that I can resonate with

25:05

and then build off of. So

25:07

we again don't want to be

25:09

prescriptive, but we want to be

25:11

precise enough that someone has an

25:13

idea of instead of just, it's

25:15

a desert with sand, giving them

25:18

both a visual to then. enough

25:20

idea that they can blow off

25:22

of. I think that's the counterintuitive

25:24

thing that's happening there, at least

25:26

the way I look at it,

25:28

is that with being both concise

25:30

and specific, it builds a framework

25:33

that you can then work outside

25:35

of. Because if I'm given no

25:37

box at all, I'm not great.

25:39

I really am like even from

25:41

a design perspective. Oh yeah, and

25:43

so many cursed hats. But the,

25:45

but, but like if I don't

25:48

have any constraints at all, even

25:50

from like the design work I've

25:52

done in the TTRB. It's tough.

25:54

I have difficulty like really pinning

25:56

down anything to work with. The

25:58

second I'm giving something to work

26:00

off of, even if it is

26:03

like reverse engineering from a piece

26:05

of art or a specific mechanic

26:07

or a setting or like then

26:09

I'm like, okay, that's the little

26:11

box you've given me and then

26:13

I kicked down one of the

26:15

sides and kind of run out.

26:17

But at least I knew where

26:20

I started. So something like. I

26:22

know it feels counterintuitive as the

26:24

DM who wants to write the

26:26

backstory for the town and the

26:28

elaborate details of the one bartender

26:30

who used to be an adventurer. But

26:33

if you're writing, if you're writing the,

26:35

you know, you want to write the

26:37

elaborate details for the bartender who used

26:39

to be an adventurer and the patrons

26:41

who come into the bar, you know,

26:43

then it's nice for you to have

26:46

somebody else have done the work of,

26:48

you know. What does the town hall

26:50

look like? What are the buildings here

26:52

made out of? What do the people

26:54

eat? Stuff like that. Whether it's

26:56

for rain, whether it's a rocky beach

26:58

that they approach as they're coming over

27:01

the crest of the cliff that may

27:03

or may not exist. Like we helped

27:05

create that wide setting so you

27:07

could give that slice of life

27:09

that really lets you dig into

27:11

what you're passionate about. And just

27:14

like we, you know, the design.

27:16

usually where experiment with some things,

27:18

but the written design usually comes

27:21

first and then we hire artists

27:23

and we sit down and look

27:25

through our roster of artists and

27:27

think about who would be a

27:30

good fit for the kind of

27:32

piece we want. Do they specialize

27:34

in characters and landscapes and magical

27:36

effects? And also like, do we

27:39

think they'd be really excited and

27:41

enjoy doing this this particular piece?

27:43

And With those art briefs, as

27:45

Clara mentioned, we want to

27:47

give those specific details, but

27:49

not be prescriptive. We're not

27:51

giving the artist the equivalent

27:54

of, you know, a full page of

27:56

box text and saying, here is exactly

27:58

what you must do, because go to

28:00

these artists because they are amazing

28:02

creators and illustrators who bring their

28:04

own ideas and often their own

28:06

experiences playing TTRPGs and you know

28:08

telling fantasy stories and their imagination

28:10

contributes to it too. Yeah and

28:12

very much in that line just

28:14

and I think a lot of

28:16

folks who might not do art

28:18

themselves don't think about this but

28:20

like a lot of artists are

28:22

character artists, their item artists, their

28:24

object artists, you wouldn't necessarily want

28:26

to hire someone whose portfolio is

28:28

just that and be like, hey,

28:30

I want you to do the

28:32

landscape. Like you want to look

28:34

for the artists that focus and

28:36

love that type of work. So

28:38

you look and hire accordingly to

28:40

the type of work you're looking

28:42

for that these people love to

28:44

do. Yep. I feel that way.

28:47

I mean, interesting. Exactly. quite a

28:49

few tattoos, but it's the same

28:51

concept of like, I'm not going

28:53

to go ask the guy who

28:55

only does tradition tradition. It's mainly

28:57

my legs. So we're just going

28:59

to assume I'm telling the truth.

29:01

But like, but like the buddy

29:03

of mine does traditional tattoos, like

29:05

that's what he's always done. That

29:07

is his thing. If I were

29:09

to, I would just feel absurd

29:11

to me to ask him to

29:13

do a photo realistic tattoo on

29:15

me. Neither do they have. No,

29:17

the concept alone scares, just scares

29:19

my skin. But the same thing,

29:21

but in the same way, finding

29:23

the person that does a truly

29:25

good photo realistic peace. Why wouldn't

29:27

I go to them for that?

29:29

And so that's the other thing

29:31

to think about at all times

29:33

is like looking for and even

29:35

when you're looking out as a

29:37

DM like finding the designer the

29:39

illustrator the creator that does the

29:41

thing that you know they do

29:43

well and that you are looking

29:45

for and they are going to

29:47

feel more specifically feel exactly what

29:49

you're trying to find. Is it

29:51

someone that is great at class

29:53

design? And maybe their magic items

29:55

aren't as good because they're so

29:57

focused on making it. side of

29:59

that particular box of designing. When

30:01

it comes to Horizons, one of

30:03

the things that we do is

30:05

I do reach out to specific

30:07

people whose, you know, ideas and

30:09

writing skills and design shops we

30:11

think will be a great fit

30:13

for the magazine, but usually I

30:15

have them pitch. two to three

30:17

ideas and then select from among

30:19

those to assemble a slate for

30:21

each issue. So we're really bringing

30:23

in the more than our imaginations.

30:25

I don't usually go to somebody

30:28

and say, hey, I want you

30:30

to write a set of seven

30:32

Roman history inspired magic items or,

30:34

you know, I want you to

30:36

write a new swamp druid subclass.

30:38

I want to know what their

30:40

passion about creating what their ideas

30:42

are and things that I would

30:44

ever have thought of. You know,

30:46

and then I might say, okay,

30:48

you want to create this swamp

30:50

druid subclass, well, to kind of

30:52

round that out as an article,

30:54

let's include a few new spells

30:56

or magic items to go with

30:58

it. And it gives us an

31:00

opportunity to also, like, that painterly

31:02

fantasy style is fantastic and very

31:04

standard, and we love it, and

31:06

I work in it, but we

31:08

have the opportunity to look for

31:10

artists that have a slightly more

31:12

graphic style, look for artists that

31:14

have something slightly outside of what

31:16

you might see in the standard

31:18

5E. I mean, even Wizards is

31:20

expanding the styles that you're seeing

31:22

in the books these days, and

31:24

we fortunately get to do the

31:26

same. Yes, that was one of

31:28

the big takeaways I had from,

31:30

you know, reviewing some of the

31:32

stuff that you sent over from

31:34

your second issue issue here. especially

31:36

the cover image right that's that's

31:38

not something you'd ever expect to

31:40

see in a wizard's book up

31:42

to this point anyway you know

31:44

it's so interesting and evocative just

31:46

just for the listeners because this

31:48

is a great great thing for

31:50

podcast is me explaining an image

31:52

to you, but you know there's

31:54

this broken mountain peak with just

31:56

a gaping hole in the middle

31:58

and then you know there's this

32:00

triangle and like a vortex inside

32:02

and there's adventures just like looking

32:04

at it you know like well

32:07

that's where we're going next. It's

32:09

just you know it's it's so

32:11

cool and interesting and it's like

32:13

a tropical you know like almost

32:15

like an atoll like a beach

32:17

setting just a lot of themes

32:19

and stuff that you don't expect

32:21

to see to see but. Also,

32:23

you can pinpoint that and say,

32:25

yeah, that's totally fantasy, that's totally

32:27

D&D. Yeah, and that's, that's Kent,

32:29

I was to say, that's Kent

32:31

Davis, who has done some beautiful

32:33

pieces for Wizards, and we knew

32:35

we wanted him to do a

32:37

cover. Clara had this concept of

32:39

this tropical beach with portal, and

32:41

we went to him and he

32:43

said, oh, I've always wanted to

32:45

do a tropical beach scene to

32:47

the point that it's become a

32:49

joke among my friends. Thank you

32:51

for giving me this dream prompt.

32:53

Yeah, making dreams come true. When

32:55

you connect with someone that you

32:57

are looking to do work with

32:59

and they're like, you just brought

33:01

me my dream project. Like, just

33:03

feels good. Wish fulfillment. You're like,

33:05

well, sure, I'm good. Also, so

33:07

one of the other things that

33:09

I think is amazing. Derek, what

33:11

you could have done is just

33:13

scroll over and wait until the

33:15

alt-text popped up. And you could

33:17

have said that the cover of

33:19

Horizons too, a beautiful tropical shore

33:21

with a white sand beach that

33:23

gives way to a crystal blue

33:25

ocean in the shallows, a group

33:27

of adventurous stands observing two steep

33:29

mountain peaks rising into the clouds

33:31

in the distance and a triangular

33:33

portal with swirling dark energy between

33:35

the peaks. So good. Also, a

33:37

further credit that is due, that

33:39

is even, it is both accessible

33:41

and just should be a bare

33:43

minimum. There's an index that I

33:45

could click on. Crazy. Whoa! Thank

33:48

you. I mean, come on. I

33:50

go through these PDFs all the

33:52

time to reference stuff and I'm

33:54

like, thank God we have bookmarks.

33:56

Yeah, all the bookmarks and everything

33:58

is there. It is one of

34:00

the things that probably could infuriate

34:02

me the most, the quickest is

34:04

when it's like a 300 page

34:06

document and there's nothing. I'm like,

34:08

I don't, you don't even have

34:10

chapters for me. The minimum we

34:12

can do is accessibility. That's, that's,

34:14

I. one of my daily loves

34:16

in my job and one of

34:18

the things I bring to this

34:20

from everything from alt-text to bookmarks

34:22

to anchor links and jumps and

34:24

whatever we can do. Like that's

34:26

the form fillable character sheets for

34:28

cantella. Oh boy, forms are my

34:30

nemesis, but here we are. Will

34:32

it even read in the right

34:34

order? Because that's another thing that

34:36

I dealt with in. It's a

34:38

whole thing. But it reads across

34:40

from column to column, it's a

34:42

little confusing for the person who

34:44

can't see well. Yeah, I just

34:46

wanted to shout that out because

34:48

I observed it and just, yeah,

34:50

kudos to you for doing that

34:52

extra due diligence because again, it

34:54

is one of the things that

34:56

just, it helps everybody and helps

34:58

specific people even more, but it

35:00

is just a benefit to everyone.

35:02

I don't have an easy segue

35:04

out of that. So one of

35:06

the other things, I know that

35:08

the approach to it sounds like

35:10

is definitely the words. and the

35:12

art, but is there ever kind

35:14

of like a play a little

35:16

bit more of a play back

35:18

and forth like once the art

35:20

has been made just like some

35:22

of the like to some of

35:24

the text change based on that

35:26

usually Depending on the timing of

35:29

the process, sometimes I will provide

35:31

the editor with the art. Sometimes

35:33

I'll show it to the author,

35:35

but that's usually just for fun,

35:37

so they can see the beautiful

35:39

art being created for their article.

35:41

Oh, it's the highlight. It's the

35:43

highlight. As someone who has seen

35:45

words he has made into art,

35:47

it's the highlight. Yeah. It's the

35:49

best. So sometimes I will show

35:51

it to the editor right because

35:53

one of our pet peeves is

35:55

when text does not match the

35:57

art and throughout the entire art

35:59

process, you know, there's nothing more

36:01

frustrating as a GM than to

36:03

see this gorgeous. piece of art,

36:05

think that the room looks like

36:07

this and then you read the

36:09

description and mechanics of this location

36:11

and it doesn't match the art.

36:13

They're like, well, I can't show

36:15

the art to my, not only

36:17

am I confused, but I can't

36:19

show this art to my players.

36:21

So that's a, you know, pet

36:23

peeve of mine and so sometimes

36:25

I'll share the art with the

36:27

editor so they can see, okay,

36:29

this is what this character looks

36:31

like while you're editing the, you

36:33

know, description of this character. Here's

36:35

what the art is, so it

36:37

doesn't change to become inconsistent, or

36:39

maybe it changes to become even

36:41

better. We are exploring some possibility

36:43

of some artist-led work, because, as

36:45

mentioned, artists have great ideas that

36:47

are often TPRPG, DMs, and creators,

36:49

and players. We did have, for

36:51

one of our recent articles, Crimson

36:53

Strings and Stall in Prayers, illustrated

36:55

by Veronica O'Neill. Veronica happened to

36:57

be in the right time zone

36:59

for one of the play tests

37:01

happening for that article and I

37:03

thought she might be interested so

37:05

I hooked her up with our

37:08

lead tester and she played in

37:10

one of the tests for the

37:12

article she was illustrating and some

37:14

of those experiences and events that

37:16

happened in the test went into

37:18

her art. So that was certainly

37:20

a fun back and forth collaboration.

37:22

That art's really cool too like

37:24

the tendrils of blood from the

37:26

fingers wrapping around. other people. Oh

37:28

man. Yeah and I think it's

37:30

a really good point and if

37:32

we haven't said enough one of

37:34

the reasons we're having this conversation

37:36

is that everything we're talking about

37:38

applies to your home game. It's

37:40

taking the approaches that you both

37:42

are taking and applying them back.

37:44

One of the things I've often

37:46

thought of and I've literally gone

37:48

through the same thing of I've

37:50

come up with this but I

37:52

realize the piece of art that

37:54

inspired the thing that I wrote

37:56

no longer matches and almost verbatimim.

37:58

I don't feel like showing the

38:00

art anymore because I'm like, this

38:02

is confusing. Now what I've, I've

38:04

created confusion for, like you said,

38:06

for myself. can't say these words

38:08

and show this image and not

38:10

expect some additional questions or at

38:12

least some sort of confusion in

38:14

like taking that second to either

38:16

think do I I mean at

38:18

that point you know being inspired

38:20

by a piece of art like

38:22

that art is gonna speak on

38:24

its own so like my thing

38:26

would be like you know what

38:28

maybe I do need to go

38:30

back and change the description of

38:32

this room because if you show

38:34

art players will look at art

38:36

and they will be like I

38:38

saw this thing What about the

38:40

thing that I saw? And it's

38:42

very, it's a weird walkback to

38:44

be like, well, no, that's not

38:46

really, no, that one thing actually

38:49

isn't there because it's, for my

38:51

convenience, it wasn't, like, they resonate,

38:53

they stick with it. Yeah, I've

38:55

definitely taken. maps, battle maps before

38:57

and pop them into Photoshop and

38:59

spend way too many hours editing

39:01

them, you know, using the like

39:03

smart auto select tool to highlight

39:05

and change some colors and move

39:07

some things around and customize it

39:09

for the, you know, big set

39:11

piece battle that I want to

39:13

run. As far as like the

39:15

principles, you both have learned and

39:17

lean on heavily with creating this

39:19

product. Yeah, what are some of

39:21

the things you feel like directly

39:23

translate to running home games for

39:25

friends, for family, whatever it might

39:27

be in, in kind of, maybe

39:29

just, yeah, like a few tidbits

39:31

of advice you've got. It could

39:33

be from like a design perspective,

39:35

it could be from, you were

39:37

talking earlier Hannah about like. Having

39:39

people ask you to do everything

39:41

and also pay you 12 bucks

39:43

an hour, like, you know, just

39:45

having the right tools for the

39:47

job is half the battle and

39:49

knowing who not to work with.

39:51

But yeah, you know, anything you've

39:53

learned from like organization to writing

39:55

to editing to knowing what to

39:57

ask for, you know, the specific.

39:59

you're looking for. I don't know.

40:01

How does it, you know, is

40:03

there anything that you feel like applies?

40:05

Certainly think being the designer editor

40:08

has given me a lot more

40:10

confidence to adapt and to create

40:12

my own stuff for players. That's

40:14

one of my favorite things to

40:16

do is to create special set

40:19

for my players. Sometimes if they're

40:21

like, well, I want to use

40:23

this ancestry, but it doesn't. white

40:25

fit with the setting we're playing

40:27

in and I'm like, hey, give

40:29

me 15 minutes or, you know, give

40:32

me a day and I will change that up

40:34

for you and I'm going to

40:36

actually sneak some lore secrets in

40:38

there that they might not even

40:41

know about till later in the

40:43

campaign. or let me, you know,

40:45

homebrew magic item that I think

40:47

will be perfect for you. And,

40:50

but there is a difference between

40:52

that and the professional publications we

40:54

touched on earlier. I try not

40:56

to be, to put too much

40:58

pressure on myself and I try

41:01

not to write my GM notes like

41:03

I am writing a full-on

41:05

adventure because that is just

41:07

really inefficient in terms of

41:10

my time. I think from my

41:12

side, speaking from the player

41:14

side or the GM side,

41:16

there, and I might be a

41:18

little biased, but there is no

41:20

greater joy if you have the

41:23

opportunity to commission an artist to

41:25

make art of your character,

41:27

your group, your setting,

41:29

anything like that. And there's

41:32

a range of artists out

41:34

there, but truly having been

41:36

on both sides of this sides

41:39

of this. It is incredible.

41:41

It is truly a joy to

41:43

tell someone very specifically what

41:45

your player looks like, what

41:47

your group looks like, and

41:50

to get them to do

41:52

custom art for you.

41:54

Like there is nothing greater

41:56

that is also than supporting

41:58

someone else. So... loves this game

42:01

and what you're doing. Outside of

42:03

that, if you're looking to wildly

42:05

different in my suggestion, but if

42:07

you're looking to build a website

42:09

or build a community or anything

42:11

like that, there is a great

42:13

deep leveraging of pre-built stuff like

42:15

if you go patreon, if you

42:17

go discord, like anything that's pre-built

42:19

and has all of those parameters

42:21

already set there for you, there

42:24

are a whole team of engineers

42:26

and support, but you will have

42:28

a lot more flexibility if you

42:30

happen to need it for your

42:32

product. If you build in your

42:34

own space, if you happen to

42:36

be able to hire someone to

42:38

do it, or if you happen

42:40

to have those skills yourself or

42:42

you're interested and want to learn

42:44

up, you just have a lot

42:46

more flexibility in building on your

42:48

own site. That's not just within

42:50

a Kickstarter, a patriot, or so

42:53

on so forth. So depending what

42:55

you're looking to stand up, just

42:57

look at what your options are

42:59

and know that more effort will

43:01

probably come with the bigger rewards.

43:03

Yeah, having had a couple custom

43:05

pieces, even ones that I've done

43:07

like for my own character and

43:09

like how cherished those end up

43:11

being like I feel like I

43:13

learned that from someone who had

43:15

started very early on and so

43:17

they have one of the they

43:19

have literally their first character. And

43:22

he happened to know Todd Lockwood.

43:24

So, which is that whole story

43:26

about the meeting is very funny

43:28

because it was just. It was

43:30

in an authors kind of thing.

43:32

So then your brain's not automatically

43:34

thinking Todd Lockwood. And then so

43:36

he's just chatting him up for

43:38

probably 30, 40 minutes before he

43:40

figured out who it was. But

43:42

yeah, like seeing how cherished that

43:44

piece was for him and understanding

43:46

what it could then mean for

43:49

me. And yeah, I have a,

43:51

like I said, I have a

43:53

couple pieces that yeah, there was

43:55

some of the most cherished stuff

43:57

from games that I loved. that

43:59

are easy to evoke those moments,

44:01

evoke those feelings from those games

44:03

by having that piece of art.

44:05

Actually said an author thing and

44:07

my first thought with Todd Lockwood

44:09

is, has he finished that fantasy

44:11

dragon series and it doesn't look

44:13

like it yet? So maybe someday.

44:15

One day. There's a lot of

44:18

really, there's a lot of dragon

44:20

art though. It's ready, it's ready

44:22

to go right in there. Yeah.

44:24

Don't know that we necessary, so

44:26

one of the things we do

44:28

when we round it out, and

44:30

I don't know that this topic

44:32

will necessarily apply. I think we

44:34

can think of a few things,

44:36

but we often have air quote

44:38

homework for the listeners to try

44:40

and do of like what what

44:42

are things that we could think

44:45

of either media that they could

44:47

consume, oftentimes we'll think of shows,

44:49

TV, and stuff like that. I

44:51

don't know that necessarily applies to

44:53

this topic, so one of the

44:55

things I'll throw out is try

44:57

and get into a play test.

44:59

just look like type in the

45:01

word play test and try and

45:03

be involved in a play test

45:05

process. It is something that will

45:07

benefit you immensely as a as

45:09

a DM even if you're a

45:11

player in a play test process.

45:14

The amount of that you will

45:16

gain from that is huge and

45:18

maybe we could take a couple

45:20

minutes to like for both of

45:22

you to speak on that but

45:24

like that's the thing that really

45:26

stood out to me as like

45:28

kind of the homework to like

45:30

tell our DM listeners like go

45:32

just join I have learned so

45:34

much from our professional playtasters as

45:36

a DM and a designer. They

45:38

may be better at both because,

45:41

you know, they run a lot

45:43

more games than I do. You

45:45

know, they run so many games

45:47

and so many, you know, games

45:49

at different levels and different genres

45:51

and different kinds of stuff. And,

45:53

you know, their job as testers

45:55

is to look at things really

45:57

critically and deliver really. thoughtful, concise

45:59

feedback that's not about how they

46:01

would design it, but to identify

46:03

the issue with it. and the

46:05

thing that is missing or confusing

46:07

or seems incorrect or incongruous with

46:10

the intention that's being presented. So

46:12

yeah, I've learned a lot from

46:14

them and certainly I mean, join

46:16

the Wild Mage Press Discard. We

46:18

don't have a super formal process

46:20

for bringing in playtesters at the

46:22

moment, but there are and will

46:24

continue to be opportunities for that.

46:26

And I could talk for a

46:28

whole hour about the play test

46:30

philosophy and how we're exploring what

46:32

makes a good tester and what

46:34

to what mindset to bring to

46:36

a play test my play testers

46:39

could talk even more knowledgeably about

46:41

that. And I think to expand

46:43

on that, not just play testing,

46:45

so maybe you don't have the

46:47

time, but Look beyond the system

46:49

you're most comfortable with. There's always

46:51

something to be learned. There's always

46:53

other designers out there. Like we

46:55

all love tabletop. There's like our

46:57

best lay test runners know a

46:59

lot of systems. Like yes, maybe

47:01

they're especially good at this one

47:03

and that one and we'll tap

47:06

them for that. But much like

47:08

reading, you do yourself nothing but

47:10

benefit by being more aware. of

47:12

other systems out there and there's

47:14

so many great designers and there's

47:16

so great systems that you can

47:18

play with your friends or connect

47:20

with online communities about do not

47:22

be scared to look for additional

47:24

systems if nothing else they deepen

47:26

your love and appreciation for what

47:28

you're already playing. Yeah, these are

47:30

the moments where I'm like, did

47:32

we just did we just become

47:35

best friends? Because it is the

47:37

thing I say most often I'm

47:39

like, just if nothing else you

47:41

learn what you don't like. Yeah,

47:43

even that's super beneficial, even if

47:45

that's the worst thing that happens.

47:47

Or it makes you appreciate something

47:49

that much more by virtue of

47:51

like, wait, look at that thing.

47:53

really forget it until I played

47:55

that game. Regardless of what the

47:57

internet is saying, I actually like

47:59

this thing, and that's okay. Yeah,

48:02

and even if, you know, your

48:04

home game group doesn't want to

48:06

try new systems, like Claire is

48:08

saying, just read it. A lot

48:10

of our testers run for different

48:12

systems, but they also read them,

48:14

and that's one of the things

48:16

that we are excited about presenting

48:18

and horizons, is different featured systems.

48:20

And so the idea of like,

48:22

yeah, go read our candelobscura article,

48:24

even if you don't end up

48:26

running candelobscura, take some ideas from

48:28

it, you know, whether that's the

48:31

vibes or the mechanics or the

48:33

art or the background questions or

48:35

I mean, the setting is super

48:37

cool. And, you know, we make

48:39

our stuff really thoroughly play test

48:41

and crunchy, but with the thought

48:43

in mind, always that somebody can

48:45

adapt this. to use in a

48:47

different system. On that note, my

48:49

homework is to do what Hannah

48:51

was describing earlier and try to

48:53

design your own stuff. In whatever

48:55

system it is, give yourself a

48:58

little challenge, even if it's not

49:00

specifically for a player who's asking

49:02

for something. Yeah, try to home

49:04

brew an item, a creature, a

49:06

mechanic, a curse. Home or a

49:08

cursed hat and come tell us

49:10

about your cursed hat. Right. The

49:12

worst thing that can happen is

49:14

it doesn't work very well and

49:16

you just tell your players, I

49:18

was just trying something, we're, you

49:20

know, that's gonna disappear. And the

49:22

best thing that could happen is

49:24

it works really well and you

49:27

have fun and you keep trying

49:29

it. So I feel like that's,

49:31

it's the gateway drug, you know,

49:33

just trying to make a few

49:35

things yourself if you haven't ever

49:37

done that before. And see how

49:39

fun. Yeah, I love that. Yeah,

49:41

I love that. The other important

49:43

question that we have is where

49:45

can people go on this world

49:47

wide web to find all the

49:49

stuff that you are both working?

49:51

You can go to Wild Mangepress.com.

49:53

Nice and simple. There are links

49:56

to subscribe to Horizons on our

49:58

website, links to our patron, our

50:00

discord, our shop. Wild Mange Press

50:02

is on the social medias, primarily

50:04

Blue Sky and Instagram these days.

50:06

And I am Wild Rosemage on

50:08

those social medias. and I will

50:10

let Clara give her own handle

50:12

and information. The Eldridge Blup. It's

50:14

super professional. You can find me

50:16

around. Well, what I can say

50:18

is that I had a wonderful

50:20

time and I know that our

50:23

listeners have definitely benefited from just

50:25

us having a fun conversation with

50:27

each other that we happen to

50:29

record. And what I can also

50:31

say is I think we've already

50:33

staged ourselves to have a second

50:35

episode with both of you on

50:37

where we talk about play testing

50:39

because I am super, super interested

50:41

in it. And I think there

50:43

will be just as much benefit

50:45

to figure out kind of some

50:47

quick. quick ways that DMs can

50:49

play test their own work without

50:52

potentially just showing too much of

50:54

their hand to their players because

50:56

that is one of the toughest

50:58

things is typically the person you

51:00

want to talk to about the

51:02

most is the people you can't

51:04

talk to at all because you're

51:06

just like hey I had this

51:08

really great idea for this boss

51:10

but I have a I have

51:12

a friend and we both go

51:14

through that he's he's running a

51:16

mini campaign right now in the

51:19

route RPG system I think we're

51:21

one session from the Antin. I'm

51:23

looking, we're both looking forward to

51:25

him being able to talk about

51:27

the planning that went into it.

51:29

Well, yeah, so like I said,

51:31

we will definitely have to have

51:33

both of you back on. Well,

51:40

this is gonna be a fantastic input

51:42

intro and outro for you that I've

51:44

started to leave a whole bunch more

51:46

stuff in because I'm like, you know

51:48

what dear listeners? Just here haven't I

51:50

don't I'm not making bloopers. I'm just

51:52

leaving them in like if they make

51:54

sense There's a few during the intros

51:56

and outros of DMastics there's a strong

51:58

chance that the listeners are hearing me

52:00

say all of these things now. So

52:02

we just want to thank Clara and

52:04

Hannah for coming on, spending some time

52:07

with us, and sharing some very insider

52:09

baseball in hindsight about what it is

52:11

like to be someone producing content in

52:13

this TT RPG space. And again, as

52:15

always, you are the creator at your

52:17

table when you dungeon master. So any

52:19

advice that they've given undoubtedly will help

52:21

you. Definitely, yes. As a person who

52:23

has been DMing for a while and

52:25

also has tried to publish some stuff,

52:27

I think they gave a lot of

52:29

good advice on both those friends, and

52:31

most DMs I know have also considered

52:33

to themselves, hey, you know, how hard

52:35

is it to take what I have

52:37

done for my home games and make

52:40

something that other people could use to,

52:42

so I think it's definitely applicable. If

52:44

you enjoyed the show today, or if

52:46

you have ever enjoyed any episode of

52:48

Danger Master's Block or DM Nastics ever,

52:50

you should head on to iTunes, or

52:52

sorry, you should head on to Apple

52:54

Podcasts, or Podchaser, or Good Pods, or

52:56

any other pod, uh, what's, pod aggregating

52:58

site that you know of, and you

53:00

should leave the Danger Master's Block, a

53:02

nice review, because you're a nice person,

53:04

and nice people do that kind of

53:06

thing. Remember. The most fun term is

53:08

pod catcher because I always envision that

53:10

it's a little man going around with

53:12

like a big cheesy looking butterfly net

53:15

catching my pods for me. It's like

53:17

the bug catchers from Pokemon, like the

53:19

cute little kids who you destroy their

53:21

hopes and dreams. Yeah, Spongebob is the

53:23

same thing as well, Kitchen the Jellyfish.

53:25

The other thing I think is every

53:27

time we do it this way, it

53:29

sounds like if you can't leave a

53:31

review on your podcast or of choice,

53:33

choose another. I know that's not the

53:35

vibe we're going for, but it feels

53:37

that way. But if you head over

53:39

to a social media platform, we might

53:41

be on it. If you look at

53:43

Dungeon Masters Block or DMS underscore Block,

53:45

we should be there.

53:48

And of course, course, always,

53:50

as always, we're a

53:52

proud member of

53:54

the Party Podcast which is

53:56

ever ever growing, you

53:58

can check out other

54:00

shows other shows like Bad Venture

54:02

Club, Dungeons and

54:04

Dragons and Daughters, Daughters, The

54:06

The Titans of of

54:08

Altera, Knocked Prone, and

54:10

very soon. soon. Thank

54:12

you for listening to

54:14

Master's Block, the the place

54:16

where we come

54:18

to talk about The

54:21

Dungeon Master, the

54:23

most important person in

54:25

the game. game. The

54:27

only person capable

54:29

of playing playing God. Killing and

54:31

lowering the egos of all other people

54:34

at the table. at the table.

54:36

I'm DM you to telling

54:38

you I'm and. I'm DM Neil.

54:40

good luck and good luck.

54:42

keep on dungeon mastery. It's

54:55

not inspiration. It's not wisdom and it's

54:57

bad advice. advice. Any time a a player says that

54:59

they think that they they could do it

55:01

better, just force them to do a Kickstarter. They'll

55:04

stop. stop. Good

55:48

bye.