0:00

Hello, hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. On

0:02

this season of Revisionist History,

0:04

we're going where no podcast has

0:06

ever gone before. In combination

0:09

with my three -year -old, we defend

0:11

the show that everyone else

0:13

hates. I'm talking, of course, about

0:16

Paw Patrol. There's some

0:18

things that really piss me off when

0:20

it comes to Paw Patrol. It's

0:22

pretty simple. It sucks. My son

0:24

watches Paw Patrol. I hate it. Everyone

0:26

hates it, except for me.

0:28

Plus, we investigate everything from

0:31

why American sirens are so

0:33

unbearably loud, to the impact

0:35

of face blindness on social

0:37

connection, to the secret behind

0:39

Thomas' English muffins, perfect nooks

0:41

and crannies. And also, we

0:43

go after Joe Rogan. Are

0:45

you ready, Joe? I'm

0:47

coming for you. You won't want

0:49

to miss it. Listen to Revisionist

0:51

History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

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Podcasts, or wherever you get your

0:55

podcasts. This episode

0:58

of Ear Hustle is brought

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to you by Progressive Insurance.

1:02

Fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary

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in all states or situations. Hi,

1:29

my name is Mike Farrell. I'm

1:31

the president of the board of directors

1:33

of Death Penalty Focus, an abolition

1:35

organization. The following episode of Ear

1:37

Hustle contains language and content that

1:39

may not be appropriate for all listeners.

1:41

There's also a brief mention of

1:43

suicide. Listener discretion

1:45

is advised. We

1:56

have Ming. She

1:58

has a very

2:00

distinctive smile. Like a

2:02

Bugs Bunny -ish. In a wheelchair.

2:06

She's short, 5

2:08

'2". She's Asian. Very

2:11

nice dimples. Then

2:13

there's Cynthia. Cynthia's

2:15

got like mahogany

2:18

hair. Very nice smile,

2:20

pretty eyes. Very

2:22

curvy. I

2:25

like this. Why? Because she's doing

2:27

our job for us. Yeah, well, I

2:29

mean, these women have known each

2:32

other for a long time, so it's

2:34

cool to hear how they describe

2:36

each other. The woman we just heard

2:38

from, her name's Bubbles, and she

2:40

was kind of the cut -up, the

2:42

class clown, the joker of the bunch.

2:46

Okay, then there's Jess. I'll

2:48

tell you

2:50

about 6 '4".

2:52

She wears glasses.

2:56

Rosy cheeks. Cora.

3:00

Cora, she's got like a

3:02

strippers thing going on. Jesus

3:04

is watching you, Bubbles. Very

3:09

ladylike. I'm scandalized to

3:11

hear you described as a

3:13

stripper. Erlon,

3:17

do you remember Cora? She was

3:20

so proper. She reminded me of

3:22

anybody's great aunt. You

3:24

know, she would have white gloves on, a

3:26

little patent leather purse sitting in the church

3:28

pew. A very good example would be the

3:30

Golden Girls. Not

3:34

a stripper. There was nothing

3:36

stripper. Nothing. Next

3:39

up, Cora introduced Bubbles. I'm

3:42

going to describe Bubbles'

3:44

personality. Whenever any

3:46

of us was feeling down

3:48

and out, she was the

3:50

first one there. bringing

3:52

you something to eat, something

3:54

to give you comfort, to

3:57

give you a hug, and

3:59

to wrap you in her

4:01

arms and tell you it

4:03

was going to be okay.

4:05

In her voluptuous figure. How

4:11

would you describe bubbles? I

4:13

would describe bubbles

4:16

as a big, sparkling

4:18

bubble. Yeah, it

4:20

suits her. So

4:23

we're really grateful that you said yes to this.

4:25

We keep calling it death row, but do you call

4:27

it condemned? Condemned. Or the

4:30

row. We call it the row. And

4:36

that's who we're hanging out with

4:38

today, the women of California's death

4:40

row. That's right. In the last

4:42

episode, we met men at San

4:44

Quentin who spent decades on death

4:46

row there. This time... We're talking

4:48

to the women. And just like

4:50

the guys, these women have recently

4:52

been moved out of the death

4:54

row housing unit that they were

4:56

in in CCWF. The Central California

4:58

Women's Facility. And they've joined the

5:00

mainline prison population. And it's been

5:03

a shift, though I think not

5:05

in the ways that you'd expect.

5:07

Definitely not. I'm Nigel Poor. I'm

5:09

Erlon Woods. And this is Ear

5:11

Hustle from PRX's Radiotopia. My

5:20

first three years after I received the death

5:22

penalty, I got sent to Orange County. They

5:24

had no idea what to do with me

5:26

because I was the first woman, so they

5:29

had no clue. This

5:31

is Cynthia. Most people

5:33

call her Cindy. Cindy

5:35

was the first woman in California

5:37

to be given the death sentence

5:39

after the death penalty was reinstated

5:41

in 1978. By the time she

5:43

got to CCWF, there were two

5:45

more women on the roll. We

5:49

got to watch it slowly progress up

5:51

from us that were here first on

5:53

to the rest of them that came. So

5:57

we watched the cage grow. Like when

5:59

I was first there, it really was

6:01

a tiny little dog run. And there

6:03

was just a few of us in

6:05

the beginning of the cage. And then

6:07

as more people came, they started to

6:10

expand it. So

6:12

we should probably explain what death row

6:14

looked like. You know, this cage that

6:16

Cindy's talking about. Yeah, because it was

6:18

totally different than where the men lived

6:20

at in San Quentin. At

6:23

San Quentin, Death Row was its

6:25

own building separate from the rest

6:27

of the population, and it housed

6:29

about 600 to 700 condemned men.

6:31

Death Row at CCWF housed only

6:33

about 25 women. That was the

6:36

total population of condemned women in

6:38

California. So they didn't have their

6:40

own building like the condemned men

6:42

at San Quentin did. CCWF's

6:45

death row was situated in a larger

6:47

housing unit, and we weren't able to

6:49

see it, but it sounds like it

6:51

was separated from the rest of the

6:53

unit by a metal fence. That's what

6:55

Cindy was calling a cage. Here's

6:59

Man Ling. She arrived on

7:01

a row in 2012. First

7:05

receiving my sentence,

7:07

I was, sorry

7:09

to say, but

7:12

I'm suicidal. And

7:15

so when I first

7:17

arrived at the row, I

7:19

didn't know what to

7:21

expect. I was scared. I

7:23

was apprehensive. My

7:26

neighbor calls and goes,

7:28

hey, new girl. I'm

7:30

like, yeah? And

7:34

she's like, I'm part

7:36

of the row. I wanted

7:38

to welcome you. That

7:40

bag on your desk that you see,

7:42

that was from all of us. We didn't

7:44

know what you needed, so we just

7:47

gave you a little bit of everything. I

7:49

was like, okay,

7:52

thank you. I

7:55

went and looked through.

7:57

It was bowls, paper,

7:59

pens, pencils, a

8:02

stinger, utensils,

8:04

Tupperware. They also

8:06

gave me little snacks, like

8:08

little chocolates, a pack of

8:11

meat. I

8:14

started tearing up because

8:16

I did not expect

8:18

something so kind, so

8:20

generous from a place

8:22

that had that kind

8:24

of stigma on it.

8:27

Did you see the bag there or

8:30

did you not note it until they

8:32

said there's a bag there for you?

8:34

I didn't note it because I was

8:36

so in my head that I'm here

8:38

on the road. Yeah. I

8:40

was... resigning

8:43

myself to, you know, be

8:45

in the cell for the

8:47

rest of my life. That

8:51

first night there, I had

8:53

a friend who lived two doors

8:56

down from me that I

8:58

was in county with, and she

9:00

called over and said, Ling,

9:02

if you need anything, let me

9:04

know, even if it's just

9:06

to talk all night with you.

9:09

And so that first night was

9:11

comforting to me because of her.

9:13

She was able to calm me

9:15

down enough that I was able

9:17

to get a little bit of

9:19

sleep that night. Do you remember,

9:21

did you do most of the

9:23

talking or did she? She did.

9:26

She did. The

9:28

first two weeks after arriving on the

9:30

row, the women had to be in their

9:33

cells like 24 -7. Yeah, that's the window

9:35

where the prison is assessing whether you

9:37

would be a risk, you know, if they

9:39

let you out your cell to do

9:41

what they call program. Right. And usually when

9:43

we talk about programming in prison, we

9:45

mean like the groups and activities and classes,

9:48

you know, all that stuff that people

9:50

do. But when you're on death row, program

9:52

really is basically just the time you

9:54

get to come out of your cell. I

9:58

was found suitable to be able to

10:00

come out and program. And

10:02

the first person I met

10:04

was Bubbles. She and one other

10:07

person on the row played

10:09

a joke on me, was holding

10:11

hands, came over, and the

10:13

other person drew a fake beard,

10:15

a mustache on her, and

10:18

said, oh, we're husband and wife.

10:20

Just wanted to welcome you

10:22

to the row. Like, okay,

10:25

I'm going to stay

10:27

away from them. Turns

10:31

out she's one of

10:33

the best people you could

10:35

ever meet. She started,

10:37

little by little, pulling

10:39

me out of my shell, talking

10:41

to me more, would sit out with

10:44

me, we'd play cards, we'd watch

10:46

TV. For however long she had to

10:48

sit with me, she sat with

10:50

me. It

10:52

was very traumatic going

10:54

into an unknown situation. Cor

10:57

is the one you called a golden

10:59

girl. Yeah, not a stripper. Are

11:02

people going to like you?

11:04

Are people going to dislike you

11:07

because of your case? How

11:09

much of the information that was

11:11

out there do they know when you

11:13

walk in? Is there a preconceived

11:15

idea? And does

11:17

that happen? People dislike you because

11:19

of your case? They

11:21

never came to my face and

11:24

told me. I didn't like discussing.

11:26

that aspect of anybody. Was

11:30

that a big topic, why people were there?

11:33

I wouldn't say it was a big

11:35

topic, but, I mean, human beings are

11:37

curious. Sometimes

11:39

they'd be watching TV, like, you know, in

11:41

a day room, and one of those

11:43

true crime shows would come on. They

11:46

have the true crime channels. A lot

11:48

of us pop up on that, and you

11:50

could hear the whispers or whatever. I

11:52

mean, it is what it is. I happened

11:54

to be going through the channels and

11:56

I caught the last five minutes of the

11:58

one that was about me. Again, this

12:00

is Cindy. How quickly did you realize

12:02

it was about you? Pretty

12:05

quickly. And

12:07

it's really hard because the

12:09

whole time you're looking at it,

12:11

you're thinking, who are they

12:13

talking about? That's not my case.

12:15

That's not me. And

12:17

then they just switch it all up. I

12:21

always say my crime's bad enough.

12:23

You don't need to add anything

12:25

extra than to know that other

12:27

people have seen that. Nobody may

12:29

say anything to you, but you

12:31

know they've seen it because so

12:33

many people watch those stations. After

12:37

I saw it, it took me a minute not

12:39

to be looking around to see if people were

12:41

staring at me. Why

12:43

do you think it's so fascinating to people?

12:45

It's the same reason why I feel like

12:47

people here look at people a certain way.

12:49

It's because it makes them feel better about

12:52

themselves. You can say, oh, my

12:54

case wasn't so bad. Look at theirs. Look

12:56

at them. See them? Because you hear

12:58

it. It's not just I think it. You

13:00

hear people say it. I

13:02

think it's the same thing with people

13:04

when they like these shows. Maybe it makes

13:06

them feel better about their lives. I

13:09

was just curious, did the actress look like you? No,

13:12

they didn't even pick a good looking

13:15

person. I was like, God, could you not

13:17

pick somebody that was a lot prettier

13:19

than me, you know, to have done it?

13:21

Because sometimes you'll see them and they'll

13:23

have the most beautiful people playing people. And

13:25

I'm like, couldn't you have done that? Erlon,

13:32

I got to say, I actually

13:34

get what she's saying. I mean, you're

13:36

not happy you're on TV. They're

13:38

talking about your crime. And yet. You

13:40

still care who plays you because

13:42

for some reason you still want to

13:44

look good. Yeah, you definitely do.

13:46

You don't want to be on there

13:48

all disheveled. Who would you want

13:50

to represent you? Morgan Freeman. A

13:52

little old. A little old for you.

13:54

Ice cube. Okay. All right. I can

13:56

see that. You know what's really interesting

13:59

to me, though, is that even inside

14:01

prison, people are fascinated by death row

14:03

and people's crimes. Right. I mean, you

14:05

know, you hear someone has been sentenced

14:07

to death, you want to know what

14:09

they did just on strength. And I

14:11

think when it comes down to it,

14:13

when it's women, there's just this... of

14:15

extra fascination. And I hate to admit

14:18

it, but I noted even on our

14:20

team, we were way more curious about

14:22

what got these women to death row,

14:24

whereas we don't really discuss it when

14:26

we talk about the men. Yeah, well,

14:28

we said it before, you know, it's

14:30

really rare for women to commit crimes

14:32

that would get them on death row.

14:34

Yeah, and so it piques your curiosity

14:37

in a certain kind of way. Cindy

14:39

says a lot of the incarcerated women

14:41

assumed that she and the other condemned

14:43

ladies were there because they had harmed

14:45

children. The

14:48

misconception for a lot of people was

14:50

that we were all there for child cases.

14:52

So you would be walking across the

14:54

yard and, you know, and people would be

14:56

screaming terrible things at you. And

14:58

I got to a point one time when

15:00

it was happening, I just stopped dead and

15:02

I yelled back to him, you know, you

15:04

got the wrong case. That's not me. We're

15:06

not all the same. Sometimes you can only

15:08

just take so much, the ridicule, the things

15:10

like that. Another

15:12

thing that was really hard for us was when

15:14

we would come to visiting, the difference was we

15:16

were locked in those tiny little rooms. Cindy's

15:19

talking about how whenever she or another

15:21

woman on death row received a visit

15:23

from a family member or a lawyer,

15:25

they were putting these special rooms inside

15:27

the main visiting room. Yeah, they were

15:29

like, you know, almost like a closet,

15:31

but the door had a glass panel

15:33

on it. So everybody could peek in

15:35

and try to get a look at

15:37

these women. And we couldn't

15:39

come out of those rooms. We couldn't do anything.

15:41

So you're like, who's the puppy in the

15:43

window? Everybody walking by staring

15:46

at you, gawking at you, they

15:48

didn't realize we can hear inside those

15:50

rooms. You could hear what people

15:52

were saying about you. Oh, dead

15:54

man walking, you know, things like

15:56

that. Over

15:59

time, this group of women

16:01

formed a pretty serious bond.

16:04

We created a family. Here's

16:07

Bubbles again. You know, there was so few us.

16:09

I mean, there was a total of, what, 23?

16:12

24. 24 of us? It was

16:14

like a dysfunctional family, but when

16:16

push came to shove, we were

16:18

united. Somebody's family member

16:20

passed away. They were sick.

16:22

Somebody was going through cancer. We

16:24

were like glue. So

16:27

it was what you

16:29

made of it, and I

16:31

was blessed to be

16:33

there and grow and heal

16:35

with those people. When

16:38

people are sick, Everybody had like their

16:40

own different thing that they would do.

16:42

One person might be a person who

16:44

cooks something. I would go in and

16:46

clean the room. Each person like had

16:48

like their thing that they did to

16:51

try to help other people. I

16:53

might add to that. Cindy

16:56

was our exercise

16:58

Jane Fonda. And

17:00

if it hadn't been for Cindy and

17:02

one of the other girls that I

17:04

lived with who encouraged me to this

17:06

day, I probably would be in a

17:08

wheelchair. We got

17:10

up every single morning for the

17:12

20, well, at least 21 years

17:15

that I was there. And

17:17

we exercised together. I

17:19

would get the look if I came

17:21

out in my, getting ready to go take

17:23

a shower, we would put on like

17:25

a house dress. And the look was, and

17:28

what do you think you're doing? Richard

17:37

Simmons? I mean, Erlon, the vibe

17:39

there was so different from what we

17:41

saw with the men at St.

17:43

Quentin's death row. Yeah, you know, those

17:45

guys were describing a really somber,

17:47

you know, sometimes violent place. On the

17:49

women's death row, I don't think

17:51

it was like that at all. Our

17:54

row, it's not what most people

17:56

think of. It looks scary from

17:58

the outside because it literally looks

18:00

like a big chicken coop, but

18:02

it has all the rooms. Rooms

18:05

open up. You step directly into the

18:07

day room. And in that day room,

18:09

you had a library inside of there.

18:12

You had a hairdresser. We had an

18:14

ironing board. We had an iron. We

18:16

had a TV. We had a VCR.

18:18

We had phones. We had washer, dryer.

18:20

The only thing we did not have

18:22

were groups. We were

18:24

offered no self -help groups because

18:26

why waste money? This was

18:28

true of San Quentin, too. If you're

18:30

part of the general prison population, You

18:33

can take college courses, run marathons. Yeah,

18:35

perform in a Shakespeare play. There's NA,

18:37

AA, all kinds of self -help groups.

18:39

People on death row, they got none

18:41

of that because the feeling was, why

18:43

waste money on these people who are

18:45

going to die anyway? Right, and for

18:47

a long time, that's exactly what it

18:49

was like at CCWF. Women had nothing

18:52

to do, really, so they had to

18:54

come up with their own forms of

18:56

entertainment. The

18:58

back of where we're

19:00

at... the trees and

19:02

it's wildlife. And

19:05

they come in because the

19:07

door to the back, there's

19:09

a big gap. We

19:12

had a side wonder that came in,

19:14

right? Les was in

19:16

the shower, showering with it. There's

19:18

a snake in there. I

19:21

had little Kermit. There's a

19:23

little tree frog. Little baby bunnies

19:25

would come hop into the

19:27

building. Officers have to go running

19:29

after them. corralling

19:31

them and throwing them back

19:34

outside. Larry

19:36

was about the size, when I got

19:38

him, he was about the size of

19:40

maybe a dime. Bubbles

19:42

had a tree frog named Larry.

19:45

Oh, he was so tiny, and he had

19:47

this great big plastic tub that we

19:49

turned in his little habitat. I

19:51

loved him. I adored him. But, oh,

19:53

God, he was a savage when

19:55

he'd eat. Yeah. Oh, my God. What

19:57

did you feed him? Spiders,

19:59

any kind of bugs. There was a

20:01

spider that we put in there. Sidia brought him in.

20:04

Bigger than what Larry was. We're like, oh,

20:06

no. He's not to be able to

20:08

eat this. So I'm too afraid of spiders.

20:10

So I'm like, dude, come on. Who

20:12

has true ratnophobia. I'm like,

20:15

you've got to get him. I was like,

20:17

no. She's like, it's going to kill Larry. So

20:19

she takes a pencil. she gives me a

20:21

pencil. And she's chasing the spider. The spider's running

20:23

from her. Larry's like, hey, what are

20:25

you doing here? Grabbed that thing and

20:27

inhaled it. All you see is the

20:29

spider, the legs going. I

20:31

think both of us in unison

20:33

were like, wow. What

20:36

happened to Larry? Oh, during a

20:38

room search, they took him. I

20:40

was devastated. It's

20:42

like a comfort. These animals become

20:44

a lot to them because of the

20:46

fact that, you know, you don't

20:48

have anything to love. And so you

20:50

get those little animals and they

20:52

become... your little world, just like people

20:54

have there in the free world.

20:56

You have your support animals, your comfort

20:58

animals, and in a way for

21:00

people in prison, I think that's kind

21:02

of what the animals are for

21:04

some people. The

21:07

women of Death Row had this

21:09

really nurturing way, both with the animals

21:11

and with each other, but they

21:13

also had this very goofy side, like

21:15

they were super into their hijinks. We

21:18

would pull pranks on

21:20

each other. So for

21:23

several years, someone, like

21:25

to put post -its

21:27

on poor Mickey's back.

21:29

This is Jessica, the

21:31

one who Bubbles claimed was 6

21:33

'4". And she's talking about another

21:35

condemned woman named Mickey. Mickey wasn't

21:37

there for our first visit, but

21:40

it was clear that everybody loved

21:42

her. She was like the heart

21:44

of the condemned Roe family. Now,

21:46

Mickey, I want to

21:48

paint this scene because Mickey

21:50

is a much older,

21:52

73 -ish lady, Rummy.

21:55

So she's playing with Kathy, sometimes

21:57

with Cindy, sometimes I would get to

21:59

sit in. And then Bubbles would

22:01

be right behind her. And

22:03

she'd be scribbling. On a post

22:05

-it. And would stick it on her back.

22:08

So one day I was sitting at

22:10

the table. I think Cindy was cleaning

22:13

a room. No, but what happened

22:15

before that, what led you to be

22:17

protective, was Mickey went out on a jet to leave

22:19

the cage to go see the nurse. And on her

22:21

back had a post that said, my milkshake brings all

22:23

the boys to the yard. So

22:25

what did it say? said, my

22:27

milkshake brought all the boys to the

22:29

yard. So I was very offended because

22:31

Mickey, I love Mickey to death.

22:33

And so when Mickey got back, she

22:35

was a little upset. A

22:38

little bit later on, when everyone calmed down, I

22:40

sat with them. I said, here's what we're

22:42

going to do. Get some

22:44

paper out. Bubbles

22:47

is sitting there. And I just kind of leaned

22:49

back and put it on her wheelchair.

22:53

I kept seeing staff and people walking by going,

22:55

ah, ah, ah. And I'm like, what's

22:57

going on? And it said,

22:59

honk if you like big girls. Oh, seriously.

23:03

And every time an officer, the rest of

23:05

the day, all you would hear is, ah.

23:09

How did you feel about that? I

23:12

expected it. Another

23:17

story they all wanted to tell

23:19

involved Kathy. People said Mickey

23:21

was the heart of death row, but Kathy

23:23

was the brain. Yeah, she kind

23:25

of ran the show, and we met

23:27

her later, and you could totally see

23:29

why people called her the brain. She

23:32

was very proper, authoritative, maybe even just

23:34

a little bit... bossy. And

23:36

everyone called her mom. I

23:39

come out every morning and I

23:41

would get on the treadmill

23:43

or the bike or something. And

23:45

I would listen to music

23:47

that I like. Like what? I

23:49

like Alicia Keys. I like

23:51

a lot of oldies. And

23:54

Bubbles, I left my CD player

23:56

on the table to go because

23:58

I forgot my water. While

24:00

Kathy was getting water, Bubbles took

24:02

that Alicia Keys CD out

24:04

of Kathy's player and replaced it

24:07

with something else. And I

24:09

picked up the CD player and

24:11

this rapper from South Central

24:13

Los Angeles, I don't know half

24:15

of what he was saying,

24:17

but I did get all the

24:19

curse words. It was Eazy -E.

24:22

And I remember the song

24:24

was Automobile. I

24:26

don't remember that song. Yeah,

24:29

pretty bad. Really bad. So

24:31

we hop in the back seat, you

24:33

know, man. This bitch rubbing all of my

24:35

dick. He's front like she gonna give

24:37

me the pussy, man. I got all the

24:39

genitalia he was talking about. And they

24:41

thought it was funniest. And I jumped off

24:43

the treadmill with the treadmill still going.

24:45

Do you remember any of the lyrics that

24:47

you could recite for us? And

24:51

on the face, like, what? No.

24:56

We asked her if she

24:58

could say some of

25:00

the lyrics and she's like

25:02

something like genitalia and

25:04

swears and genitalia. I'm

25:09

thinking back

25:12

to our

25:14

last episode

25:16

about the

25:18

men on

25:20

San Quentin's

25:22

death row.

25:25

And I don't know if listeners will

25:27

remember, but listening to these women talk

25:29

and remembering how the guys at San

25:32

Quentin talked, I mean, they couldn't be

25:34

more different. Yeah, I mean, you know,

25:36

that episode had a real somber tone

25:38

to it. You know, it was dark.

25:40

But I think the difference of the

25:42

death roles is that San Quentin death

25:44

role was violent. Like cats up there

25:46

was killing each other, stabbing each other.

25:49

It was all kind of shit going

25:51

on. Definitely. Honestly, making

25:53

that episode was painful and

25:55

listening back on it was

25:57

also really difficult. Their suffering

25:59

was so clear. And

26:02

doing this interview with the women, there

26:04

was so much laughter and funny stories

26:06

they want to tell us. And I

26:08

know there was hard stuff for them.

26:10

I mean, there's no doubt. But we

26:12

just weren't hearing it. I

26:14

want to start wrapping this up, but

26:16

I just want to... something, have

26:18

you react to it.

26:20

So maybe for the last

26:22

30 minutes, you guys

26:24

have been deeply reminiscing and

26:26

mostly with humor and

26:28

with longing. This is what

26:31

it appears to somebody who's just

26:33

listening to you. And it sounds like

26:35

if I didn't know what you

26:37

were talking about, I would never guess

26:39

you were talking about your life

26:41

together on the row. It sounds very

26:43

fun. It sounds very loving and

26:46

supportive. And you clearly

26:48

all have a lot of positive emotions

26:50

about it. I wonder what each of

26:52

you make of that observation, that that's

26:54

what comes across to a stranger, that

26:56

when you talk about it, you talk

26:58

about it with love and what sounds

27:00

like longing. Even though being stuck

27:02

in a cage like that, like

27:04

we were for so long. We

27:06

were able to find some sort

27:08

of, and I'll never use the

27:10

word happiness because you're not really

27:13

ever happy in prison, but contentment,

27:15

companionship, friendships, friendships that have blessed

27:17

us for the rest of our

27:19

lives, the family that we have

27:21

and still have. I

27:23

think for me, I don't want

27:25

to paint any other picture

27:27

than I'm a human being, Cindy

27:29

is a human being, Mickey,

27:32

Kathy, Ling. Melinda,

27:34

Cora, every one of us

27:36

that came from back there is

27:38

a human being. And I

27:40

want to only talk about the

27:42

times where we laughed, where

27:44

we had a joke, or we

27:46

had fun, or we... I

27:48

don't want to talk about bad

27:50

things. I want people to

27:52

recognize that we are good human

27:54

beings that have a relationship

27:56

that can build a friendship. So

27:58

it's intentional for you? For

28:00

me, I think so, yeah. This

28:03

is a provocative thing to say to you. What

28:05

if people heard this and said,

28:07

these people are not taking seriously

28:10

what they did to get to

28:12

death row. They're laughing. I've been

28:14

down 23 years. If you

28:16

would have talked to me my first

28:18

year, two years, three years, five years,

28:20

ten years, I doubt the conversation is

28:22

the same. Being

28:25

there was what you made of it.

28:27

It's not to say that we didn't

28:29

have sorrows, that we didn't go through depression,

28:31

that we didn't have certain days that

28:33

were hard to get our head off

28:35

the pillow, because we all experienced that. And

28:37

that's very real, even today. But

28:40

it is what you make of it. And

28:42

if you dwell in that negative spot and that

28:44

negative thinking, it's going to get you nowhere. After

28:53

we left, I was still... I don't

28:55

know, this conversation was still really sort

28:57

of weighing on me. I was trying

28:59

to understand it and get my mind

29:01

around, again, just

29:03

like the laughter and the camaraderie

29:05

they had. And I couldn't help

29:07

but think about Steve from our

29:09

last episode about death row at

29:11

San Quentin and just how different

29:13

it was for him. He

29:16

seemed crippled.

29:19

burdened by his experience on death

29:21

row, but not just his

29:23

experience, his remorse about his crime,

29:25

that it was hard to

29:27

me to imagine him ever laughing

29:29

and joking around because it

29:31

was really all about the heaviness.

29:34

of what he had done and what

29:36

he was living. Right. And I wonder

29:38

if it has to do, like, with

29:40

their environment. What do you mean? Like,

29:42

Steve was more isolated, you know, in

29:44

a cell, you know, all day. And

29:46

they were, like, in a community -type environment.

29:48

Oh. So they were able to just

29:50

chop it up all day, talk about

29:52

different shit, and then he was just

29:54

pretty much left to his thoughts. Yeah,

29:56

I can see that. So a couple

29:59

weeks later, we went back for another

30:01

visit to CCWF to talk some more.

30:03

Do you remember the conversation we had towards

30:06

the end of the interview where I

30:08

asked everyone, or I made the comment about

30:10

how everyone talks about death row with

30:12

these font? condemned with very fond

30:14

memories and there's so much laughing and I

30:16

was a little bit confused by that. Do

30:18

you have any other thoughts on that?

30:20

Because it really is such a striking

30:22

difference to talk to you women here

30:24

and then talking to the men at

30:26

San Quentin about their memories of being

30:29

on death row. And I'm just wondering

30:31

how listeners are going to hear that

30:33

there's so much laughter. And so I'm

30:35

wondering what about some of the harder

30:37

times or what did you make of

30:39

the conversation focusing so much on the

30:41

positive? For one, I think

30:43

the difference of the women and the men

30:45

was there were so few of us that

30:47

we were allowed to program together, which the

30:49

men never really got that opportunity. I

30:54

think it's because of,

30:56

like I said, the

30:59

family dynamic that we

31:01

built here. I don't

31:03

know how the programming

31:05

was at San Quentin,

31:07

but you hear things

31:09

and... I guess from

31:12

what I've heard, San

31:14

Quentin, they're isolated. And

31:16

so they don't really have the

31:18

interpersonal connections. Yeah, the only thing

31:20

can keep coming back to is

31:22

the size, the difference in the

31:24

size of the places. That's

31:27

the only thing I can imagine that,

31:29

you know, it was only 22 women and

31:31

death row was what? At the height,

31:33

it was like 700. 700 or something. Yeah.

31:35

Yeah. And

31:38

so dark. Yeah. There's

31:43

a woman we've heard a couple times

31:45

so far, but we haven't said much

31:47

about yet, and that's Jessica. Jessica

31:50

is a trans woman who

31:52

also spent time on San Quentin's

31:54

death row. Can you

31:56

talk about how the people were on death

31:58

row at San Quentin when you got there?

32:00

They just left me alone. They

32:02

didn't really say a lot.

32:05

I was in my

32:07

own isolated world. Literally

32:10

isolated. When

32:12

Jessica was transferred to CCWF's death

32:14

row, she says that the women

32:16

took her in right away. She

32:19

was one of them. The

32:21

inmates were amazing and yelling

32:23

to me constantly in the

32:26

holding cell for the week

32:28

that I was there to

32:30

get into the cage. What

32:32

were they yelling? Just like...

32:34

you okay? Do you need

32:37

anything? And, you know, me in

32:39

my own little world, in my own little bubble,

32:41

I had just had surgery. Not

32:43

trying to get out of bed much. Just

32:47

seeing their faces through the

32:49

cage, through the glass. It

32:51

was overwhelming, but it was

32:53

accepting. And that was something

32:55

I didn't have. It

32:57

was a little community. Stop.

33:02

Don't start your stuff, Bubbles. What

33:04

do you think accounts for the difference between

33:06

the way the incarcerated people at San Quentin

33:08

treated you and the incarcerated people here treated

33:10

you? I think it's

33:12

because we were females and we

33:14

had more empathy. You know, I was

33:17

just another girl to join the

33:19

little fold and join the little family.

33:24

But this world they're describing... has

33:27

really changed. Yep, because over the

33:29

last few years, the women of

33:31

death row have had to move

33:33

out and join the mainline. More

33:36

on that when we come back.

33:52

Calling all your hustlers. we've

33:55

got an announcement. We are hitting

33:57

the road again. That's

33:59

right. Back in 2023, we had

34:01

our first live tour on the East

34:04

and West Coast, and we had

34:06

so much fun, we're like, we got

34:08

to do this again. So that's

34:10

what's happening. Only this time, it's really

34:12

like an old -fashioned road show, kind

34:14

of like a 70s -style rock band.

34:16

We are renting bands, and we

34:19

are packing so many outfits, Erlon. And

34:21

hitting the road. We'll start

34:23

out in Nashville on August 4th, and

34:25

we will drive across the South

34:27

and Midwest, hitting a bunch of cities,

34:29

hopefully yours. Grand finale in a

34:31

city I have always wanted to visit,

34:34

Austin, Texas. And this

34:36

time out, we've got an entirely

34:38

new show. Stories from inside and outside

34:40

prison, reimagined by a cool animator,

34:42

and music from some of our favorite

34:44

artists you've met on the show. And

34:48

Erlon, you know I am already picking

34:50

out my outfits. And between you and

34:52

me, we are going to need our

34:54

own van. Erlon, we are going to

34:56

travel Liberace style. And

34:58

you know I am dying to see what

35:00

our listeners are going to be wearing. I'm

35:03

wearing furs and blues. You are

35:05

not. You are not. So

35:07

dress to impress. For ticket

35:09

info and all the details, go

35:11

to EarHustleSQ.com. See you on

35:14

the road. Nigel,

35:21

I'm curious. Do you say data

35:23

or data? Well, now that you ask

35:25

me, I'm confused, but I'm pretty

35:27

sure I say data. Okay. Yeah, yeah,

35:29

yeah. I say data. Well, let

35:31

me say this. For the longest time,

35:33

I thought paying a fortune on

35:35

my monthly data plan was just normal.

35:37

Yeah, isn't it? Until I found

35:40

out about Mint Mobile. Oh, yeah? Yeah,

35:42

and they're premium wireless plans that

35:44

start at only $15 a month. Okay,

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that's crazy because that's like taking

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a zero off of what I pay

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bring your phone number along with all

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your existing contacts. Okay, but

36:07

it's got to be hard to

36:09

make the switch, right? Nah. I

36:11

set up my Mint Mobile plan

36:13

in just a couple of minutes

36:16

with an eSIM, which I can

36:18

activate right away. And I can

36:20

easily transfer my plan from one

36:22

eSIM -capable phone to another. Okay,

36:24

you're going to help me make

36:26

this switch? Of course. Simple. No

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matter how you say it, don't

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overpay for it. Shop data plans

36:33

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options available. Taxes and fees extra.

36:48

See Mint Mobile for details. We're

36:52

going to be traveling quite a

36:54

bit this year, Erlon. Yep, another trip

36:56

out east and... be hitting the

36:59

road later this summer. I know. Live

37:01

tour. Very exciting. So

37:03

that means I've got some shopping to

37:05

do. But actually, did you notice the

37:07

sweater I'm wearing today? Yes. It's one

37:09

of your new quince sweaters. Exactly. I

37:12

love it. And it's perfect right now.

37:14

But I could use some summer gear

37:16

too, Erlon. You know, like some lightweight

37:18

pants and tops. And quince has me

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covered there. And the best part, all

37:22

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37:35

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37:37

fabrics and finishes. I love that. And

37:39

did you know that Quince also makes

37:41

suitcases? Yes, I do. You do know

37:43

that. Okay, then you probably know that

37:45

I have my eye on the 27

37:47

-inch. bag that they make. It comes

37:49

in this beautiful color green because I

37:51

travel with a lot of clothes and

37:53

Quince is making the perfect suitcase for

37:56

me. Okay, I'm looking at the wine

37:58

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earhustle. So

38:41

as a reminder, over the

38:43

last five years or so, under

38:45

a new state law, California

38:47

has been closing down its death

38:49

row units. The death penalty

38:51

still exists, but people who have

38:53

been sentenced to death are

38:55

now living alongside the mainline prison

38:57

population. They're not segregated anymore.

38:59

And at the Central California Women's

39:01

Facility, this happened gradually. The

39:03

first step was a pilot program

39:05

where women could volunteer to

39:07

go to the mainline. Kathy and

39:09

Mickey were some of the

39:11

first to go. And remember, the

39:13

other women called Kathy the

39:15

brain and Mickey the heart of

39:17

death row. They were kind

39:19

of like pioneers. Me,

39:22

Mickey, and Kathy have been together

39:24

forever. We've been together in that cage

39:26

since 1992. And so we

39:28

made a group decision that we were

39:30

coming out together. And boy, was that an

39:32

experience for the three of us. We

39:37

were told that the four of us would be

39:39

going to one room together. We

39:41

arrived at count time. And they

39:43

said, you're going here, you're going

39:45

here, you're going here, and you're

39:47

going there. And

39:49

we're like, what? One

39:52

person got really lucky. She went to

39:54

a great room. Okay. How many other

39:56

people? I think she had like four

39:58

or five in her room. And I

40:01

ended up in an okay room. And

40:03

then... My friend Mickey, she

40:05

ended up in the worst of the rooms.

40:07

Poor Mickey ended up in a room that almost

40:09

killed her. So

40:11

on our first two visits to

40:14

CCWF, we still hadn't met Mickey.

40:16

No, and we really had to

40:18

meet her because she was clearly

40:20

an important part of this community.

40:22

And she was full of these

40:24

little affirmations. I

40:29

always tell people, you want

40:31

to believe something, believe it. I

40:33

live with an attitude of

40:35

gratitude. I never forget a

40:37

kindness. My mom taught me

40:39

that. One thing

40:41

you notice about Mickey right from

40:43

the jump, her hair. Can

40:46

you tell us about your hairstyle? I can't

40:48

have a facelift, so I go shorter

40:50

and shorter as the years. I'll be 78

40:52

in May, May 15th. So yeah, the

40:54

shorter the hair. A younger I look. So

40:56

it's quite short. It's not spiky. it's

40:58

not buzzed. I mean, I'm not like a

41:00

dude. No, no, no. It's very feminine.

41:02

It has a lot of body to it.

41:05

Yeah, I have a kind of thin

41:07

hair, fine hair, but I have so much

41:09

of it. You have a lot of

41:11

hair. It looks like you want to touch

41:13

it. Go ahead. Okay. Oh,

41:15

that's what I thought. It's really soft

41:17

and buoyant. She had that kind

41:19

of blonde hair that's really a bunch of

41:21

different tones of blonde, like sort of

41:23

lighter on top, a little bit darker underneath.

41:26

Really deep and interesting. She

41:28

was very put together. Well,

41:31

I went to the Cosmo and

41:33

I said, I'd like some streaks. And

41:35

the young girl that did it

41:37

said, I don't know what I'm doing.

41:39

And she said, do you want

41:41

to make another appointment? I said,

41:44

no, it's hair. Do what you

41:46

can. And if you screw it

41:48

up, I'll cut it off. I

41:50

mean, but we had such a

41:52

lovely time, and I was very

41:54

relaxed, and it wasn't what I

41:56

wanted, but everybody else liked it,

41:58

and now the blonde's almost gone,

42:00

so I'm basically an old 78 -year

42:02

-old with gunmetal. You can see

42:04

why everyone said Mickey was the

42:06

heart of the row. She was

42:08

very warm with us, sort of

42:10

shockingly upbeat, but clearly getting off

42:12

the row was really hard on

42:14

her. I was

42:16

placed in a very bad room.

42:19

I was invisible. I won't go into

42:21

detail about the room. Since then, I

42:23

have forgiven everyone. But what was it

42:25

like? Can you tell us what it

42:27

was like when you... Scared to death.

42:29

What about when you, like, the moment

42:32

you got there? I looked at Cindy

42:34

and I said, have we made a

42:36

mistake? And she looked at me and

42:38

she said, I just don't know. Not

42:41

everyone likes death row inmates. I'm sure

42:43

in that room they didn't want an old

42:45

woman and they didn't want a death

42:47

row inmate. I mean, you can't blame them.

42:49

They don't know me. How would I

42:51

have felt not knowing this person's coming off

42:53

a death row into my room? Because

42:56

they believe the worst, of course. There wasn't

42:58

respect in there. And I'm just going

43:00

to leave it at that. But do you

43:02

think their reaction was based on fear

43:04

or anger judgment? No, I think some of

43:06

them were just mean -ass people, to tell

43:08

you the truth. Mickey didn't

43:10

want to go into detail because, like

43:12

she said, she's forgiving them. Yeah, and she

43:14

really likes to focus on the positive.

43:16

But some of the other women filled in

43:18

a little more of the picture. They

43:20

said Mickey was bullied. People gave

43:22

her a hard time about when she could use

43:24

the bathroom. And they told her she had

43:26

to clean it with a toothbrush. All

43:29

of this took a toll on her.

43:31

And she was like 70 -something. Yeah,

43:33

yeah, she's in her 70s. And

43:35

then I became very ill. I

43:38

was down to not eating. I

43:41

ate one slice of bread

43:43

a day, and I drank

43:45

very little water, and I'm

43:47

a diabetic. I was so

43:49

sad. I was so traumatized.

43:51

I couldn't even pray, and

43:53

I'm a person who prays.

43:55

All I could say was

43:57

Jesus. I

44:00

didn't even have it in

44:02

me to do anything else, and

44:04

I cried. hours

44:08

every day on end. I grieved,

44:10

and yet it was my choice

44:12

to come out here, and I

44:14

don't understand my reaction, but I

44:16

was in bad shape. I

44:19

had an emotional meltdown. I didn't

44:21

do anything. I was just in

44:23

a state of grief. What

44:26

were you grieving? I

44:28

believe it was the loss

44:31

of the Roe family.

44:33

I was loved. I was

44:35

respected. I loved these

44:37

women. You know, I

44:39

spent 34 years with

44:41

some. The

44:45

other women who were still on

44:47

the row heard what happened to Mickey

44:49

and it became a cautionary tale. Manling

44:51

and Bubbles did not want to leave

44:53

the row. In fact, they asked if they

44:56

could stay. Some people

44:58

volunteered and we kept in

45:00

touch with them and we

45:02

heard both sides, both the

45:04

good and the bad. Hearing

45:08

the good, we were

45:10

skeptical. And when we heard

45:12

the bad, especially when

45:14

we heard the bad from

45:16

one of the people

45:18

that we know doesn't exaggerate,

45:20

doesn't lie, we were

45:22

like, yeah, we're not going out. We're going

45:24

to hold out to the very last minute. I

45:27

can honestly tell you that part of the reason I

45:29

wanted to stay back there was because of the rapport

45:31

that I had with our staff. I

45:34

spent 20 years there. And

45:36

you get to build a rapport and

45:38

know them. I would talk about my

45:40

family, what was going on with my

45:42

kids. And like vice versa, they would

45:44

share how things were going over their

45:46

day or what they did with their

45:48

family. And you build that, I can't

45:51

say friendship because that would be over

45:53

familiarity, but you build that solid rapport.

45:55

And I miss so many of our

45:57

staff that when I see some of

45:59

them doing escorts coming over here because

46:01

we stay here for work, I get

46:03

teary -eyed, you know, so I miss

46:05

that. I

46:07

was scared. It was something that

46:09

I didn't know. It was something

46:11

new. I wasn't used to it.

46:14

I don't like change. And

46:16

so I was

46:18

like, no, I can't

46:21

do it. Were

46:23

you scared of being hurt or just

46:25

the feelings that would come up or feeling

46:27

like I was standing out and people

46:29

know I don't know what I'm doing? All

46:31

of the above. All of the above. I

46:34

felt like a tornado

46:36

came through, uprooted

46:39

us, and tossed us

46:41

all, scattered

46:43

us to all different sides

46:45

of the earth. And it

46:47

was all new faces, all

46:49

new things that we had

46:51

to learn and had no

46:53

idea what it was or

46:55

what it was about. Eventually,

46:59

Manling and Bubbles couldn't hang

47:01

back on the road anymore. They,

47:03

like everyone else, had to lead a role

47:06

and join the main line. And they really

47:08

didn't know what to expect. When

47:10

the door opened to the building for

47:12

us to step out, it was like

47:14

a parade. They

47:16

had these bins ready with all our

47:18

stuff in there. My boss was out there.

47:21

Everybody was cheering and clapping. It

47:23

was really welcoming. We

47:26

had inmates and

47:28

staff alike yelling

47:31

freedom. When

47:33

we were coming out

47:35

of the row and

47:37

then being unshackled in

47:39

front of them and

47:41

being, you know, hugged

47:44

and cheered and helped

47:46

every step of the

47:48

way. And then basically

47:50

we were free. That

47:56

same night, it

47:59

was almost a full

48:01

moon. It was

48:03

the Lunar New Year. And

48:05

I had for years, years,

48:07

I would celebrate in

48:09

my own way with my

48:12

friends and my family

48:14

here. But I was never

48:16

able to go out

48:18

and watch the moon on

48:20

Lunar New Year. That

48:23

first night out of

48:26

the row was my first

48:28

experience of night yard. just

48:32

seeing the moon for the first

48:34

time in almost 20 years. Coming

48:38

back from Chao, the moon

48:40

had partially risen and it was

48:42

right above our unit. And

48:44

I was like, oh my gosh,

48:46

it's the moon. And

48:48

it just flooded

48:50

me. And I was,

48:53

I just, tears

48:55

just started coming. It

49:04

wasn't just these big, majestic

49:06

moments. It was also a lot

49:08

of small stuff that honestly

49:10

would never have occurred to me.

49:12

We had regular sinks in

49:14

our room and a faucet that

49:16

turned the handle and the

49:18

water turns on. You have to

49:20

turn it off, too, because

49:22

on the row, they were push

49:24

buttons. And so like a

49:26

drinking fountain. So one night

49:28

I went to go do

49:30

the dishes. And

49:33

I just left it.

49:35

And like two hours later,

49:37

my friend goes, what's

49:39

that noise? I'm like, oh,

49:41

the water's running. Where

49:43

is it coming from? And then it

49:45

dawned on me, I left the sink

49:47

going. You're

49:50

not used to it. The

49:54

doors also took some getting used

49:56

to. Yeah, on death row, the

49:58

doors split open automatically. But on

50:00

the main line? They just unlock.

50:04

They'll click to unlock the

50:06

doors, and you have, like, I

50:09

think 30 seconds to catch the

50:11

knob and turn it to open.

50:13

Otherwise, you're stuck for another hour.

50:16

And so, yeah, it took a little

50:18

bit to get used to. So

50:21

you're waiting to hear that click? Yeah.

50:23

Here, click, click, click. Every door's

50:25

different. It's

50:30

almost a year, no,

50:32

past a year since we've

50:34

been out, March 7th

50:36

was a year, and I'm

50:38

barely starting to see

50:40

the positive aspects of being

50:42

out here. It was

50:44

such a culture shock that,

50:47

yeah, some people

50:49

thrived, other people

50:51

just re -reverted into

50:54

a depression. We

50:56

didn't know what to do. We

50:58

wanted to stay in all the

51:00

time. I felt like this

51:02

past year, it was just on

51:04

automatic. Just go through the

51:06

motions, kind of like a fake

51:08

it till you make it.

51:10

And I'm starting to feel the

51:12

positivity of being out here,

51:14

going out more, reaching out and

51:17

saying, hey, you know, I

51:19

want to try this. I want

51:21

to try that. Mickey

51:27

put it perfectly. She said,

51:29

I was mourning you guys.

51:31

Here's Cora again. And that's

51:33

really what happens. Bubbles and

51:35

I were talking about that

51:38

this morning that this last

51:40

holiday season we went through,

51:42

it was hard because we

51:44

were so accustomed to doing

51:46

Thanksgiving together, doing Christmas together,

51:49

you know, celebrating birthdays and

51:51

stuff. And it wasn't

51:53

that way. anymore,

51:56

you know, and it's mourning

51:58

your people. You

52:00

were once torn away from

52:02

your family, right? So you carry

52:04

that pain. And then now

52:07

that our family had broke up

52:09

in here, you feel that

52:11

pain all over again. So

52:13

that's what it felt like. And

52:16

so even out here, we're all

52:18

separated. So it was a hard holiday.

52:21

We were much more of a united

52:23

force back there than I would say

52:25

we are out here. You know, we

52:27

see each other, you know, and things

52:29

like that, but it's not the same. And

52:32

maybe it's because of the fact that

52:34

we were all, we are living under the

52:36

sentence of death. Because of that, you have

52:38

each other to cling to, to boost us

52:40

up, to keep us going along. And out

52:42

here, you don't have that as much

52:44

as you had back there. I

52:49

struggled with having that much freedom.

52:52

I still crave isolation from time

52:54

to time because it's what we

52:56

know mentally. And it sounds sick

52:58

and weird, but you crave that

53:00

isolation. When

53:03

you think about I crave isolation,

53:05

what do you see in your mind's

53:07

eye? What are you craving? Can

53:10

you describe it? My room back there.

53:12

It was my room. I had

53:14

it decorated how I wanted. If I

53:16

needed a way to escape... people,

53:18

or if I wasn't feeling it or

53:20

whatever, I'd go to my room. And

53:22

it was just me in there. If

53:26

the death row living situation

53:28

were available to you, would you

53:30

all go back to it?

53:32

If I could keep my job,

53:34

absolutely. I'd skip there. I

53:38

heard a no. Absolutely

53:40

not. I've been

53:42

able to do so many things

53:44

since I've been out here. The ability

53:46

to be able to walk around

53:48

without being chained and escorted everywhere that

53:50

I go. You know, the pluses

53:52

far outweigh the minuses. Before

53:59

I was arrested, I was

54:01

really expressive in how I

54:03

explained things. And so I

54:05

used my hands, I used

54:08

my arms, and it's like...

54:10

entire body, I'm expressive. But

54:12

here I learned to just

54:14

stay in one position. And

54:17

people are like, are you okay? Why

54:19

do you just stay in

54:21

one stiff position? And I'm

54:24

like, I'm used to it.

54:27

Because you're used to being

54:29

waist -chained and your hands in

54:31

a certain position. And so

54:33

you just find your comfort.

54:36

Your face is, in the

54:38

three times I've spoken with you, has

54:40

always been very expressive. And I wonder if

54:42

it became more expressive the less you

54:44

could use your body. You

54:49

know, I think it has

54:51

because my parents, my family,

54:53

has told me the same

54:55

thing. They're like, when did

54:58

your facial expressions become more

55:00

pronounced? I wonder if that's

55:02

why. And

55:05

I'm thinking about it. I'm

55:07

like, I'm not shackled anymore.

55:10

Do you find that you're

55:12

abusing your hands more? Yes,

55:14

yes. I'm starting to become

55:16

more expressive again. Ear

55:40

Hustle is produced by me, Erlon

55:42

Woods, Amy Standen, Bruce Wallace,

55:45

Arsan New York Thomas, and

55:47

Kat Shuknikt. Shabnam Sigmund is

55:49

the managing producer. The producing

55:51

team inside San Quentin includes

55:53

Derelle Sadiq Davis and Tom

55:55

Wynn. The inside managing producer

55:58

is Tony DeFoya. Thanks also

56:00

to Adasteo San Pablo. Thanks

56:03

to Warden Andes and Lieutenant Berry

56:05

at San Quentin. Acton Warden Parker

56:07

and Lieutenant Newborg at the California

56:09

Institution for Women and Warden Dela

56:11

Cruz at the Central California Women's

56:14

Facility for their support of the

56:16

show. Thanks also to this woman

56:18

here. I

56:20

am Lieutenant Monique

56:22

Williams, Central California Women's

56:24

Facility, Administrative Assistant to

56:27

Warden Anissa Dela Cruz, Public

56:29

Information Officer. This

56:31

episode was amazing. Thank

56:34

you for taking time out

56:36

to talk to our incarcerated women.

56:38

And I approve this episode. This

56:42

episode was made possible by the

56:44

Just Trust, building a smaller, more

56:46

humane engine of justice and safety

56:48

across the country. Erlon

56:51

Woods and Bruce Wallace sound design

56:53

the show with help from Darrell

56:56

Sadiq Davis. Fernando Arruda

56:58

and Harry Culhane are our engineers. Music

57:00

for this episode comes from Antoine Williams.

57:02

David Jossie, Darrell Sadiq Davis, and me. And

57:04

also, I've got to thank my gym,

57:06

17 Reasons, which is right across the street

57:08

from where we work, because they let

57:11

me come in and record some of the

57:13

ambi you heard in this episode. Sound

57:15

like a free plug, Nigel. I love my

57:17

gym. Come work out there with me,

57:19

or Alon, or any of our listeners. For

57:22

more information about this episode, Check

57:24

out the show notes on Ear

57:27

Hustle's website, EarHustleSQ.com. And if you

57:29

want to learn more about this

57:31

episode and all of our episodes,

57:33

sign up for our monthly email

57:35

newsletter, The Lowdown, where you'll find

57:37

photos of people in our episodes

57:39

and all kinds of other behind

57:42

-the -scenes stuff. Sign up at EarHustleSQ.com

57:44

slash newsletter. And here's something people

57:46

are going to be hearing a

57:48

lot about in our newsletter and

57:50

pretty much everywhere else. The Ear

57:52

Hustle 2025 live tour. I

57:55

am super excited about this. Yes,

57:57

and we have just finalized all

57:59

of our stops. We're starting in

58:01

Nashville. And we're going to be

58:03

in Durham. We're going to be

58:05

in Pittsburgh, Chicago, St.

58:08

Paul, Minnesota. Yep, some other

58:10

places, but where are we

58:12

finishing? Another awesome city. going to

58:14

hang out with the homie,

58:16

Lieutenant Sam Robinson, over in Texas.

58:18

Austin, Texas. We cannot wait.

58:20

Tickets go on sale this week.

58:22

Get all the city and

58:25

ticket details at EarHustleSQ.com slash tour.

58:28

EarHustle is a proud member

58:30

of Radiotopia from PRX,

58:32

a network of independent, creator

58:34

-owned, listener -supported podcasts. Discover

58:36

audio with vision at Radiotopia

58:38

.fm. I'm Nigel Poore. I'm

58:40

Erlon Woods. Thanks for

58:42

listening. 15

58:53

minutes later, she's sitting at a table

58:55

with the biggest chick I ever seen

58:57

in my entire life. She's got about

58:59

eight foot tall, missing like half her

59:01

teeth. And I'm like, oh, fuck. So

59:04

I'm waiting for this girl to look at me and be like,

59:06

you want to eat your cornbread? What

59:09

up here, Hustlers? Erlon and

59:11

Nigel here. As many of you

59:13

know, we are big fans of the

59:15

Radiotopia podcast, Sung Exploder. In fact.

59:17

Just last week, we brought in one

59:20

of their episodes to share with

59:22

our team inside San Quentin, and the

59:24

guys ate it up. This year,

59:26

Song Exploder has introduced a new series

59:28

in their feed called Key Change.

59:30

It's not about songs that people made.

59:32

It's about the songs that made

59:34

the people who they are. The host,

59:36

Rishi Keish Hiraway, talks to guests

59:38

about a piece of music that was

59:40

transformative for them. So far,

59:42

there's episodes with actress Sophie

59:44

Thatcher on Elliott Smith, with author

59:46

and poet Hanif Abdur -Aqib on

59:49

The Clash, and with comedian

59:51

James Acaster on Outcast. The conversations

59:53

are an intimate peek into

59:55

how music can change the way

59:57

we see the world and

59:59

ourselves. Key Change comes out

1:00:01

once a month on the Song

1:00:03

feed. So check it

1:00:05

out by searching for Song Exploder

1:00:07

on your podcast app or

1:00:09

go to songexploder.com slash keychange. Radiotopia.

1:00:18

From P -L -R -X.