0:09

Hello and welcome to EDH Redcast,

0:12

where we're all all about Commander, Data, and

0:14

and dad jokes. I'm Joey and

0:16

I'm joined by my fantastic co

0:18

-hosts. Up first, his homunculus hoard is

0:20

actually more like a homunulus horde

0:22

because of how many how many he's

0:24

put onto it. It's Matt

0:26

Morgan. on to it. It's I tried to start an

0:28

argument with a skeleton an and it didn't want to

0:30

participate. I just think that it's because it didn't

0:32

have the guts I start a

0:34

debate. it's because it didn't right. All

0:36

right. I start a debate. I see your jaws

0:38

on the floor about that

0:41

one. one. Maybe Maybe we can just

0:43

move on move on. Yeah, there's no there's

0:45

no bones about it that

0:47

joke was absolutely terrible terrible, Matt. right

0:49

up next his homunculus hoard actually had

0:52

an had an alt-art to become Mike Wozowski

0:54

from Monsters Inc. It's Dana Roach. Just to kind of

0:56

kind of challenge myself this year.

0:58

I've been reading Stephen King's The but

1:00

but I've in reading in Braille. I'm like halfway through,

1:03

through but I can tell

1:05

something is is gonna happen I can

1:07

I can feel it literally feel it. literally

1:09

feel it choices in life, Dana. All all make

1:11

choices in life Dana what is it that we're

1:13

talking right well Dana what is it

1:16

that we're talking about in this

1:18

week's episode though to going

1:20

to talk about the case

1:22

against tutors and edie age. Yeah, why we ourselves

1:24

have taken have taken so many tutors out of

1:26

our those so many of those cards that

1:28

can search up anything in your library. We've

1:30

taken a lot of them out of our

1:32

decks over the years of we wanna of our of

1:34

interrogate why, but also ask whether there are

1:36

any types of tutors that we make exceptions

1:38

for. So it'll be a really interesting topic

1:40

to get into. Real quick though, we've got

1:42

a couple of things we wanna shout out

1:44

before we dive into it. First up, you

1:46

can find us in to Chicago. We will

1:48

all be at the convention got a couple of to

1:50

the 23rd, playing some games, meeting some folks.

1:52

So you can it. game nights live on Friday, the cosplay

1:55

contest Saturday, and then come

1:57

see our panel on

1:59

Sunday. We'll be doing a

2:01

live show, a so show. to

2:03

see you all there at Magic on Chicago in

2:05

February. And this show is being brought to you

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3:18

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3:23

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3:25

in the comments. And so over 2025, we're gonna

3:27

see who has the worst or the best butcherings.

3:29

Oh my word. I'm honestly, I'm super here for

3:31

that type of competition. That's so silly to be

3:33

right. Listeners keep up in the comments then. topic

3:36

here, the case against So tutors, cards will

3:38

let you search your that let

3:40

you search your library for

3:42

of whole bunch of stuff,

3:44

you know, the famous

3:46

ones, the the tutors, the

3:49

demonic tutors. This is what

3:51

we're talking about in

3:53

this episode today. today, And

3:55

why we don't play them.

3:57

But that is one

3:59

of the first things I

4:01

think we're all going

4:04

to start off with we're

4:06

over the years, each of

4:08

us has progressively been

4:10

taking these cards out of

4:12

our decks. And we

4:14

want to talk about why.

4:16

And later on, maybe

4:19

whether there are any exceptions

4:21

that we make to

4:23

that type of rule. But

4:25

first, let's investigate that are

4:27

any when it comes to

4:30

we your to that type what is it

4:32

that makes you want to avoid them

4:34

so much, do you think? Like I

4:36

can point back to in moment when

4:38

I really became aware of them

4:40

being kind of a problem in my

4:42

decks. think? I've available the deck deck and one

4:44

of the lines of on Vela is is

4:46

whenever a or another creature you control

4:49

leaves leaves the each opponent loses one life.

4:51

loses one had had writer in the deck as

4:53

well. deck as so when you when application, you

4:55

can make five copies of a creature. five copies

4:57

of a creature. And because Vela is those copies will

4:59

all die, but they all see each other

5:01

dying. other dying. So I think think it deals I

5:03

damage, I 25 forget if it was

5:06

26, 24 is. it is, to each of

5:08

your opponents by by catching where your

5:10

application. And it was a situation where where,

5:12

I had the mana available, that was

5:14

just the obvious target every single time

5:16

no matter what I did because it

5:18

just won the game. game. And once

5:21

I became aware that that was the

5:23

card to get, I I kind of was

5:25

looking at my other my with tutors with

5:27

tutors and kind of went and got the same

5:29

card the vast majority of the time in those

5:31

decks. of the it just wasn't

5:33

a fun play pattern for me a fun I

5:35

think that's where a lot of players

5:37

kind of find themselves a lot they get to

5:39

the stage where you are Commander was

5:41

built as a way to get away from

5:44

the optimized formats as a way to

5:46

get away from playing standard where where... You're to

5:48

win. That's all you're playing for you're

5:50

playing for. best things the matter things no matter so

5:52

having a single singleton nature, just by the the means

5:54

of that is having one copy of a of

5:56

a your deck in your randomness of Commander

5:58

is just so much. higher and that's

6:00

why tutors are kind of it's kind of a tenuous

6:02

thing that you know there's a lot of push and

6:04

pull in the community when it comes to tutors. Oh

6:07

for sure like demonic tutor is bonkers popular it is

6:09

showing up in over 500 thousand decks 22% of decks

6:11

that are eligible to play it are doing so. That's

6:13

a lot of nice. That is an extraordinarily popular card.

6:15

One of the most played, yeah, one of the most

6:17

played cards in the format. For sure, yeah. So like,

6:19

and I totally see the appeal. I think tutors are

6:22

actually initially when you're playing them. They're really exciting. Like

6:24

the the ability to take away some of that random

6:26

miss element is very exciting. Like the the ability to

6:28

take away some of that random miss element is very.

6:30

damage on that one too, which sounds even more awesome.

6:32

I gotta make that reliable on that. That's terrific. But

6:34

over time, it kind of has, I think, that primal

6:37

surge effect, where like, cool, I did the cool thing,

6:39

I got to play the primal surge, and that's exactly

6:41

how it plays primal surge, and that's exactly how it

6:43

plays, and that's exactly how it plays, and that's exactly

6:45

how it plays, plays, and that's exactly how it plays,

6:47

and that it plays, and that's exactly how it plays,

6:49

how it plays, it plays, it plays, it plays, it

6:52

plays, it plays, it plays, and that, it plays, it

6:54

plays, it plays, and that's, it plays, and that's, it

6:56

plays, it plays, it plays, and that's, it plays, it

6:58

plays, it plays, it plays, it plays, it plays, it

7:00

plays, it plays, it plays, plays, plays, plays, plays, plays,

7:02

plays, plays, plays, plays, plays, plays, I mean, kudos to

7:04

you, Joy, for finding a way to work the word

7:07

similitude into a podcast. Nice, nice job there. But yeah,

7:09

having a way to kind of make every single game

7:11

a new experience, I think is where a lot of

7:13

players that play commanders specifically are kind of wanting their

7:15

games to lead. Now, there is, you know, the crowd

7:17

that plays CDH. They're playing the top and they want

7:19

to do the most optimal thing every single game. And

7:22

that's totally cool. That's where you're going to find. a

7:24

majority of the tutors being played. I would wager these

7:26

days, I mean, just from my anecdotal experiences that I've

7:28

seen, you know, playing out in the wild. But I've

7:30

also kind of had the relationship of, I've had faces

7:32

where I played a lot of tutors that have had

7:34

faces where I've took a lot of tutors out of

7:36

my decks. And so it is kind of a give

7:39

and take in almost like a way. of do I

7:41

play do I play season? season?

7:43

no? Yes and another Well, and

7:45

another interesting byproduct of tutors

7:47

is Dan, as you were describing, what they as

7:49

you were describing, what they

7:51

most often tend to find

7:54

for you. they'll help you find a

7:56

they'll help you find a that's

7:58

And I feel like that's

8:00

one of those popular things

8:02

that you eventually end up

8:04

finding when you are casting

8:06

of of those effects. If

8:09

you can find any card

8:11

in your deck with deck with

8:13

tutor or a demonic tutor

8:15

or something like that, tutor or something

8:17

like that. conceptually in the deck the deck

8:19

building stage, it feels like,

8:21

well, this can find me

8:24

anything. But over time, you

8:26

actually do just end up

8:28

finding end up finding line. same line a

8:30

a condition tends to be one of the

8:32

most popular things that you'll find things that you'll find or

8:34

an out is another thing like they'll help you

8:36

find the wrath of God that you need

8:38

to try and answer your and board. opponent's are are

8:40

like some types of things that I think they

8:42

just think they up most commonly defaulting to what

8:44

it is that you'll actually use those tutors

8:47

on. So that's another thing too. The novelty

8:49

of tutors themselves loses novelty as well, which

8:51

is just kind of interesting. interesting. usually is

8:53

a little less memorable I think in a

8:55

lot of games where games where you're playing around the

8:57

times that people don't have it. don't have it.

8:59

know, if, you know, big play happens. Do they have it

9:01

or not? If they have it in their

9:03

hands, I feel like there's so much more suspense

9:05

over so much they have it or not? And

9:07

then they tutor for it immediately. And then they

9:10

end up having it to me that takes

9:12

out then lot of the suspense, lot of the

9:14

drama that I like to play suspense, a lot of big

9:16

that I moments like everybody's kind of waiting and

9:18

do they have it or not. But tutoring for

9:20

it kind of takes away all of that

9:22

drama that you otherwise was kind of getting built

9:24

up to that entire game. Yeah, it it the

9:26

tension. Sure. You know, sure. thing I think I

9:29

will also note will also note that a little

9:31

bit unique to people that have

9:33

been playing as long as us as

9:35

long as us is way back when we

9:37

first started playing Commander regularly. Tutors also much

9:39

more rare. rare. Like there was less of

9:41

them of them that had been

9:43

printed for starters of the a lot

9:45

of the older ones that had

9:47

been printed or tough to find or

9:49

very, very expensive. seals of The of the

9:51

of the were the priced out were average

9:53

out of the average person's ability

9:55

to acquire. And even truth. like things

9:57

like tutor or or world view tutor hadn't.

10:00

had reprints in years and years and years and

10:02

we're sitting at price points that made them tough

10:04

to get. So it was like, well, okay, I'll

10:06

throw this diabolic tutor into my deck and maybe

10:08

one day I'll be able to afford to buy

10:10

a demonic tutor, but that was kind of it.

10:12

Whereas today there's just so many different options for

10:14

tutors that it's not even so much, you're putting

10:16

one in a deck, like you can very easily

10:18

throw a half a dozen into a deck and

10:20

do so cheaply. up some very powerful reprints when

10:22

they were freshly reprinted. You know, you have a

10:25

chance to buy, maybe you can't buy a demonic

10:27

tutor at. $40, but when it gets reprinted and

10:29

you can buy it for $20 real quick, that's

10:31

easier to justify. And so there's been a lot

10:33

of those types of opportunities too, where, you know,

10:35

you buy that $20 demonic tutor, it goes back

10:37

up to $40 or whatever, you hold on to

10:39

it for several years, too. And you hold on

10:41

to it for several years, too. And you hold

10:43

on to it for several years, too. And you

10:45

hold on to it for several years, too. And

10:47

you can put it for two. We've each got

10:49

decks that are like what $400 when you look

10:52

at their price, but we certainly didn't pay $400

10:54

on them. Right. No, no, no, definitely not. Well,

10:56

and circling back to the tutor's thing as well,

10:58

there's something here that I think is also kind

11:00

of an interesting point. Every tutor that you put

11:02

into your deck is another piece in your deck.

11:04

Like, this can help me find any creature or

11:06

any enchantment. So it kind of serves as a

11:08

copy of each one of those enchantments, which means

11:10

it can affect your... your evaluation of the redundancy

11:12

of those effects in your deck, the density of

11:14

which effects you actually have in your deck, it

11:17

can kind of shore up a lot of those

11:19

things. And personally, another thing that I enjoy about

11:21

the experience of having removed so many of these

11:23

tutors from my decks, is that there is kind

11:25

of a deck building benefit of a deck building

11:27

benefit of forcing myself to increase the density or

11:29

those redundancy of some of the staple effects, such

11:31

as card advantage in the deck. building phase. And

11:33

that is that is a

11:35

really fun phase of that's

11:37

to me. So that's actually

11:39

another perk that I've

11:42

kind of discovered when it

11:44

comes to taking these

11:46

out is that I really

11:48

enjoyed the deck building

11:50

part of the game more

11:52

more when I don't have

11:54

certain things that I

11:56

feel like I will always

11:58

be able to rely

12:00

on and it's adding a little

12:02

bit of a challenge

12:04

in a way that I

12:07

think way making me grow.

12:09

making me grow. I think one

12:11

thing that you and

12:13

I would often say often say

12:15

is There was definitely a phase

12:17

in our deck building where

12:19

we almost use used as

12:21

a crutch for sure it was a

12:23

a way to of of

12:25

lean on this well it can

12:27

be it can be any

12:30

thing, an including an answer or it be anything,

12:32

including my win condition. I just need to

12:34

wait until the moment's right to do that

12:36

thing. And so there's definitely a sense players and

12:38

players and some people they have to have, again,

12:40

the most optimal strategies. That's great for them

12:42

and their in their group. But But sometimes you know

12:44

you know, people like me in that stage,

12:46

it was definitely a way to kind of

12:48

lean well I don't need I don't need to worry

12:50

about the redundancy like you mentioned, Joey, because

12:52

I was using this to cover up weaknesses

12:54

that I just didn't want to address myself.

12:57

want to address that's a really, really good point.

12:59

I a really, really that. I noticed that myself, my decks was

13:01

in my decks, was it an easy thing to, and easy thing to

13:03

do when to do when you're brewing. Yeah. Well, I'm building

13:05

the stack. I'm deck. I'm gonna start off by

13:07

throwing these three tutors in there right away right

13:09

away. Before I even even start like it became just a

13:11

kind of a lazy way to start brewing

13:13

a deck and I didn't love that either.

13:15

So I still do still do that sometimes Every now every

13:17

now and then when I'm starting a deck

13:19

especially when it's a strategy that either I'm

13:21

not super familiar with super don't know how

13:23

it's gonna play out things like that. to I

13:26

sometimes will throw in a couple tutors just

13:28

as a general as a general, okay I want to... experiment

13:30

with with little bit, go outside of my of

13:32

my zone, but then those do become the

13:34

first cards that I cut as I'm starting

13:36

to refine the deck list a little bit

13:38

more. That is something that I still, that it's

13:40

a a fairly common practice in my deck building

13:42

experiences just because I wanna make sure that

13:44

I can reliably get things so I know what

13:46

the weaknesses are before I I start trying to

13:48

solve problems that aren't really there. there. And

13:50

that's a really great segue, I I think, Matt,

13:52

into what we want the bulk of this

13:54

episode to be. we talk we talk about, yeah,

13:56

we don't play tutors, I I think we're using

13:58

a pretty broad brush there. there. a lot of our

14:00

reasons why we are not personally excited about them. I

14:02

especially your point about it. It does feel like it

14:04

like it diffuses of like suspense that was happening in the

14:06

game, the drama of do they have it? Do they

14:08

not? they not? Well they found the counter to protect their

14:10

win their So yes, we know they have it. That

14:13

is a different end to a game to the surprise

14:15

of like, oh, they had it. Like, it that's the

14:17

thing that we that we... You know, know, preserving that type preserving

14:19

that type of experience in the game, us and

14:21

tutors are way for us to avoid got over

14:23

a whole over a whole bunch of these reasons,

14:25

but you just named an exception. are a And

14:27

I think there are a lot of gradients,

14:29

a lot lot of nuances, a lot of are

14:31

still, points where we ourselves are still, we've

14:33

got actually a very friendly attitude towards certain

14:35

types of tutors because not all tutors are

14:37

made equal. you They're not all the demonic tutors

14:39

of the world that can find you just

14:41

anything. there There are a lot of tutors

14:43

out there with specific types of restrictions restrictions. that

14:45

we feel a lot of different ways about. And

14:48

that's some some gradients, some some crunchiness that I

14:50

think will be really fun to

14:52

explore. to Yeah, for sure. sure. There's... different, it's

14:54

almost like a scale. scale, you know,

14:56

you have know, you have that you almost

14:58

kind of take for granted, of like

15:00

a few cards that we're going to

15:02

talk about. But then there's also,

15:04

yeah, cards tutors and just to does it

15:06

fall? I guess then there's also, yeah, do

15:09

you want to call it, our willingness

15:11

to just, exceptions for type of scale?

15:13

our, what do Yeah. you want to call you know,

15:15

I'm going to make exceptions I type longer

15:17

Yeah, because to you know, I'm going to brew a that

15:19

deck as the default, default, but... I'm probably

15:21

going to run a going I'm going to

15:23

go a have a card that goes,

15:25

give me a have put into play, goes get

15:28

me a land know, into play. So just depends on,

15:30

so we say we don't run tutors,

15:32

run tutors, that's a very broad statement that

15:34

isn't necessarily true if you want to

15:36

split hairs about what constitutes a tutor.

15:38

to if you run a ramp spell,

15:40

you're kind of playing a tutor when

15:42

you get down to the most basic

15:45

way of approaching it, if you run growth spell,

15:47

tutors up playing a tutor when for you. So the

15:49

think most people, because it's such a

15:51

fundamental part of the game, most folks

15:53

just don't consider those tutors. tutors, But those we're

15:55

if to gonna set a, okay, whatever, whatever, that's fine.

15:57

We can get away with that. That's

15:59

like the. least egregious of the that we're we're going to

16:01

talk about. Right yeah to I'm just To me, I'm just ramp I

16:03

just I would absolutely give it like would star in give it like

16:05

a one star in terms of type of thing being like

16:07

to the yeah I'm gonna tutor type of thing, being like

16:10

stars. of I'm yeah, I'm going to avoid it. Five

16:12

stars for you. the That's the top level of

16:14

it. I'm personally not, whereas I'm running for you that's the top

16:16

level of I'm single green deck that I have, the top level

16:18

of like for you percent of players out there. It's

16:20

such a popular that I'm up in 18 like I'm like I'm like

16:22

play it like I'm I don't even think of that

16:24

as a going just think of it as ramp.

16:26

But then that gives you questions about I'm going then

16:28

what do you feel about going to do I'm going to do I'm

16:30

which can find you any land and isn't putting

16:32

it into play, play, that is is also very specific

16:34

type of tutor that has a restriction on

16:36

it. on it. What about cards like Woodland Bellower, which

16:38

has a restriction on how big the mana

16:40

cost of a creature you can find will be.

16:43

Once Once you add in a whole bunch of

16:45

those restrictions, it it does get a little bit

16:47

bit And that's where I think there's some interesting

16:49

stuff to dive interesting stuff to mean, into. So, should we talk

16:51

about a few of these exceptions we have for

16:53

for decks and like the where we do run some of

16:55

these of these tutters? Is there anything anything let's let's start

16:57

with you, Matt, what are some of are some of

16:59

the ones that are technically tutors do you do

17:01

still run and are comfortable running? And like,

17:04

why are you running them? them? Yeah, so I so for

17:06

would say for my deck building process and

17:08

throughout throughout deck if I'm if I'm going to

17:10

play tutors, I want at least there to

17:12

be some sort of downside or or a work I

17:14

wanna make sure that there's a little bit

17:16

of work that has to go into it.

17:18

bit like that that's a card that I've been

17:21

playing a lot like I have it in

17:23

my that I've deck. a It's super, super specific in

17:25

what it does, playing a powerful either. It's

17:27

just I has such a narrow use

17:29

case because there's literally super different strategies

17:31

that can use that. And so me, remembrance,

17:33

at least joke and the meme value of how specific the

17:35

is, value of how specific it is

17:37

for a bunch of enough for me to

17:39

get away with tutoring up for a

17:41

bunch of hair foreman. And whenever a And

17:43

that's what's so your control is a a enchantment

17:46

your library Whenever a copy of creature you control

17:48

is put into a graveyard you

17:50

may search your library for a copy

17:52

of that creature card only like hair apparent

17:54

then shuffle your library. So yeah, literally

17:56

born apostles, shadow born apostles, types, types of decks,

17:58

of of decks can use this. But this

18:00

is a perfect example of an exception because

18:02

like if you play this in your hair this

18:04

in your hair you're searching your library, but I'm

18:06

not batting an eye at it. I'm just

18:08

like, batting an eye you getting that so funny? This

18:10

doesn't have the same level doesn't level of

18:13

egregiousness five-star level of cross the threshold for me to

18:15

be like, oh, it's not a tutor a I would play.

18:17

Are you kidding? I would totally play for me a be

18:19

like that. That's so funny. for me about like it's like birthing

18:21

pod is me to card I do have still in one

18:23

deck. It's in my I do of the still in one deck? And

18:25

the reasoning is is a is a deck

18:27

that runs a ton of – it's

18:29

all artifact creatures in the deck. my

18:31

And my thought process I well, I

18:33

an an artifact creature to go get

18:35

a slightly better artifact creature. And

18:37

then of the way of the way Glyssa

18:39

works, that artifact creature that I just

18:41

sacrificed will eventually wind up back

18:43

in my hand to to But I've

18:45

had more than one person when they've

18:47

seen me cast that birthday pot it then use it

18:49

say. well, that's the most disappointing birthing pots

18:51

to use I've ever seen in my life

18:53

Because like they're thinking in thinking in terms where it's you

18:55

know, you know, usually there's some kind of

18:57

a chain you're doing that doing that the traditional

18:59

it's like leading to a infinite victory. And

19:02

that's very much not what I'm doing

19:04

in that doing in So like, that's a situation

19:06

where a pod is a where but the

19:08

way I'm playing way makes it not really

19:10

play like like tutor. The The way you play

19:12

them is definitely a huge ingredient in this.

19:14

That's why it can be weird to use to

19:16

like statements statements you know, we don't know, we don't

19:18

play any Well, Well, there are going to

19:20

be those exceptions and there are nuances to

19:22

pay attention And that's, you know, you really

19:24

good example. because not using them

19:26

the way that is so custom for us

19:28

to expect that it will be used. used.

19:30

Yes, it requires a little bit of work.

19:32

I have to have creatures to sacrifice,

19:34

and it's going to tutor up it's going to tutor

19:36

up. creature that a creature more cost and one

19:39

more mana value higher than than I just sacrificed. So I

19:41

would say Burthing Pot is somewhere in

19:43

between that rampant growth where it's not really

19:45

a tutor a tutor demonic tutors. very very the road

19:47

type of card type this hypothetical scale we

19:49

just invented for this episode. this for think If

19:51

there's any any I'm still playing in any

19:53

of my decks, in any my my decks, in my -

19:55

I believe I'm playing I'm of invasion

19:57

which is which battle that also

19:59

tutored. something out for you. you. And I use I

20:01

use it there because it is a different

20:03

card type that will will therefore be able to

20:06

and and help me draw some cards. And I'm

20:08

like, Ooh, an extra card type. That's a

20:10

little unusual. And therefore, and therefore, I'm when I

20:12

play this usually when I play usually get like a Memnight. So one

20:14

card, I've got an as one creature I've a

20:16

battle. It's like, I creature and a battle. It's like, cool. But

20:18

yeah, it's just kind of just kind of an

20:20

interesting thing thing I don't think I'm

20:22

playing I'm in any of my other ones.

20:25

of my other ones. But there is of this excuse

20:27

that I give myself for this example.

20:29

this And that's the thing the thing with all

20:31

all of is like, it is, it's, I'm hoping for myself to sort

20:33

of hoping for myself to sort of

20:35

an exception that proves the rule and

20:37

not me making one excuse that can

20:39

then later turn into two excuses and three

20:41

three excuses. sense. makes sense. Right. I'm much more

20:44

comfortable with stuff that feels like it's

20:46

thematically accurate with the deck I'm doing the

20:48

deck I'm doing too. I a have a stone in my

20:50

Azorius in my Azori's equipment deck it's only getting

20:52

equipment and that's what the deck

20:54

is doing the deck it feels like it's

20:56

a piece with a piece with the deck's greater, you

20:58

know, theme theme. And beyond that, having played

21:00

that deck for several years now,

21:02

I've also noticed I don't get the

21:04

same thing. a card that a card that

21:06

truly is would be played and to would

21:08

be convenient to get right now?

21:10

Do I need to draw a few

21:12

cards? I can go get this

21:14

thing. I Do I need a little

21:16

bit of thing. protection? of get that. Yeah.

21:18

get that. feel repetitive. It's just a card

21:20

that I play that winds up I me

21:22

something useful. up getting me it useful. a situation where

21:24

it where where necessarily feels like it's changing

21:27

how the game plays in kind of

21:29

a repetitive way. that So that kind of

21:31

thing I I tend to be okay with making

21:33

exceptions for. for. Yeah, Yeah, the repetitiveness of

21:35

what are we're we're tutoring for Yeah. I don't want

21:37

I don't want to find myself tutoring for

21:39

the same thing over and over and

21:41

over again. that's that's where I try to

21:44

like it on it on tutors I'm putting tutors

21:46

into that most strongly felt that most strongly when

21:48

I was First building my who flips odd man deck

21:50

cards flips of mana deck and you can play off the

21:52

top of your deck and you can play

21:54

them for free deck, I was, when I first had

21:56

that deck I was it was felt very

21:58

easy for me to thematically just to. a mystical tutor

22:00

in my deck. Sure, but then immediately I'm always

22:02

getting the same nine drop sorcery on top of

22:05

my deck and I'm like, well, okay. But like,

22:07

I kind of prefer the cleverness of like I

22:09

have to brainstorm something on top of my deck

22:11

instead of always reliably finding the one thing. Another

22:13

thing about the unit deck is that when I

22:16

had those tutors in there and when I had

22:18

like expropriate level cards in there, that made unit

22:20

such public enemy number one that no one would

22:22

ever let it live because they couldn't afford to.

22:25

I might get a void winner or an expropriate

22:27

going on. And so having that feeling of. I

22:29

myself am a little bit tired of always getting

22:31

the same things and also I want my commander

22:34

to live so that it can do anything and

22:36

not just have one extreme impact on the board

22:38

if it gets to do something. By taking the

22:40

tutors out it would also encourage me to be

22:43

like soften a little bit of the other cards

22:45

that I could flip into play that they're not

22:47

quite so backbreaking as an expropriate and I've had

22:49

a lot more fun with that deck as a

22:51

result of those changes. There you go. But it

22:54

was so easy for me to thematically justify that

22:56

like, oh, this deck cares about the top of

22:58

my deck. So therefore, this mystical tutor type of

23:00

effect that puts something on top of my deck

23:03

would be so thematically on point. But it still

23:05

led me down a road that wasn't actually on

23:07

point. But it still led me down a road

23:09

that wasn't actually fun for me. And that wasn't

23:12

actually on point. But it still led me down

23:14

a road that wasn't actually fun for me. And

23:16

that was a different type of experience with it

23:18

too. Yeah, we haven't even talked about the social

23:21

impact that tutors have on gameplay. You know, you

23:23

sit down at tables and if I see somebody

23:25

tutoring for a couple cards, but if they tutor

23:27

more than twice, I immediately know like I probably

23:29

need to focus them down before those tutor targets

23:32

start making major impact on the game. 100%. That's

23:34

why Dana, I know that you like to lay

23:36

low for a long time. So taking tutors out

23:38

of your decks, that allows you to lay low

23:41

and kind of deflect some of the attention that

23:43

Joey you were just talking about. You were just

23:45

talking about. When someone casts a demonic tutor, you

23:47

assume they just went and got the worst case

23:50

scenario. Yeah, 100%. There's another aspect to tutors that

23:52

I also want us to have time to explore

23:54

as well, because there are certain ways. that

23:56

tutors get used that

23:59

I think we would label

24:01

as especially big exceptions. For

24:04

instance, how we feel about tutors that enable

24:06

a hidden commander strategy when your most important

24:08

card or a secret commander is actually in

24:10

the 99 and you need to be able

24:13

to find it. Or there are some tutors

24:15

that are extraordinarily hyper, hyper specific as well.

24:17

And I think that deserves a whole lot

24:19

of time. We'll probably get to that in

24:21

the back half of this episode right now

24:23

though. How about we put this discussion on

24:25

a quick pause and challenge some stats? There's

24:27

so much data on EDA Trek that we

24:30

don't always agree with. So we'll be right

24:32

back to talking about tutors after we challenge

24:34

some of those stats. Hey

24:36

everyone, we're really excited to share an

24:38

awesome announcement with you all. So the

24:40

EDA Trekk is thrilled to announce that

24:42

we are officially partnering with Dragon Shield.

24:45

Moving forward, as our accessory partner, we

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have some amazing collaborations for the future.

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We are so, so pumped to do

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this. The first EDH deck I ever

24:53

built, I sleeved up in Dragon Shield

24:55

sleeves and there's something really special and

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nostalgic about being officially partnered with them

24:59

after all these years. It is so

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cool to finally and formally make that

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happen. And also, we make a living

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doing it. magic stuff. So we're always on the

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search to find the best stuff to make

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you guys, but I am a very heavy

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26:43

I'm gonna get us started with challenge of

26:45

stats this week. stats I've actually gotten to play

26:47

a lot of magic lately. play So magic a lot

26:49

of experiences are gonna I a lot of challenges the next

26:51

few weeks. get one card that I was just

26:53

absolutely blown away with, I've always known that

26:55

it's powerful I a lot of decks that I

26:57

build, blown but I see it not showing up

26:59

in very many decks in a lot of decks that I build in a

27:01

So Jetmere is that build in a lot of decks that I see

27:04

a about getting a lot of creatures on a

27:06

battlefield and then giving them progressively better and

27:08

better buffs to them. So them so putting a them

27:10

of progressively creatures on of creatures on the battlefield. is a

27:12

card is drew so many stinking cards

27:14

my in my hair deck. deck. of harmony

27:16

of Harmony is and a a white, for

27:18

instance, that says, whatever a a creature

27:20

or enchantment enters the battlefield under your

27:22

control this turn, draw a card,

27:24

and then it has then for flashback for two

27:27

and well. as well. This card. super super was

27:29

super, super every every single time that

27:31

I've seen it. And when I

27:33

look at the typical the typical Nexus of

27:35

Nexus of it's going to do a

27:37

lot of card draw card you're incidentally

27:39

making a bunch of tokens. of You

27:42

have cards that are played in a

27:44

majority of Jetmere Dex, like like Adelin, resplendent

27:46

Kithar, and in Pekhal which which... zero mana to

27:48

actually generate tokens off of, but but

27:50

they're going to draw you all of

27:52

those cards. You have You have artifact

27:54

mutation. Why Why not pay four mana

27:56

to get rid of a powerful the on

27:59

the battlefield then. Also, draw a a bunch

28:01

of cards equal to the mana value of

28:03

of the artifact that you blew up. There's

28:05

so many interactions in decks, in general, and just token decks, that

28:07

right of Harmony is just such a powerful,

28:09

powerful effect that's gonna draw you at

28:11

least five cards consistently. And for only two

28:13

mana, two that's a rate that just most

28:16

blue decks can't even keep up with even

28:18

keep up So I absolutely think that over

28:20

14 % over 14% of those Jetmere decks out

28:22

there currently playing Rite of Harmony need to

28:24

step up their game. game. This This is

28:26

just such a powerful card. reminded I've just

28:28

been reminded every now and then of just

28:30

how powerful it is, because it doesn't say

28:32

draw a draw a certain amount of cards, also

28:34

but also it's an so it So it's it

28:37

only lasts for one turn. People of want

28:39

those engines, but sometimes sometimes... a one shot

28:41

in the arm of six cards, that's just

28:43

gonna get you there there sometimes. I think

28:45

that's something super, super valuable that people need

28:47

to keep in mind. So in mind. you're

28:49

playing any sort of token deck, but deck,

28:51

of Rebels Nexus of Revels, Rite of Harmony is

28:53

a card you absolutely wanna make room for

28:55

to make room your card draw draw suite. Well Matt,

28:58

if you're going to challenge something kind of

29:00

kind of Silesnia-E going to challenge something

29:02

that is like that is like How

29:04

about that? That's fair. Go for

29:06

it Um, I'll talk here

29:08

about a a non-bo appearing in in Minthara

29:10

Merciless Soul decks. This is one of my favorite

29:12

of my favorite commanders from

29:15

the Commander Legend set set that they

29:17

made. I've drafted Baldur's Gate probably six

29:19

or or seven times I've played

29:21

Minthara Merciless soul in three of

29:23

those experiences because she's just

29:25

really really good And I've won

29:27

all those won all those. Frankly. I won so

29:30

so many times with her draft environments. Frankly,

29:32

Dana, do you think I should just, like,

29:34

actually finally build a Minthara deck of my

29:36

own one of these days? I should just this point,

29:38

yeah. You probably should just build one. Yeah,

29:40

I really like her. really like her. Minthara

29:42

is a of these days? I think at in black and

29:44

white. She has Ward should where X is

29:46

the number of Yeah, counters that you have. And

29:48

at the beginning of your end step, if

29:50

a a you controlled left the battlefield this

29:52

turn, you gain an experience counter and creatures

29:54

you control Ward plus where each experience counter you

29:56

have. So over the course of those games but

29:58

played with her her in that draft. She would slowly

30:00

build up and up and up to like

30:02

having five six experience and provide a buff

30:05

of plus six plus Oh to all of

30:07

your other creatures and protect herself with that

30:09

ward ability all you have to do is

30:11

make sure that something has left your battlefield

30:13

before you get to the end step and

30:15

That's a pretty important thing here And that's

30:17

why I'm going to challenge as overplayed the

30:19

card teleportation circle that's showing up in an

30:22

even quarter of the 3377

30:25

Mintharidex that are out there right now Teleportation

30:27

Circle is a form and a white enchantment

30:29

beginning of your end step exile up to one

30:31

target artifact or creature You control then return that

30:33

card to the battlefield under its owner's control

30:35

This is a great card if you are doing

30:37

some blinky stuff then totally I understand will be

30:39

appeal of this the problem that I have

30:41

With it in Minthara is that it does actually

30:43

enable Minthara's trigger itself You would need some

30:45

other stuff like a treasure token leaving the battlefield

30:48

or playing a bounce land or sacrificing a creature

30:50

to actually Enable her ability before you reach

30:52

your end step teleportation circle will trigger at the

30:54

same time that Minthara wants to trigger and if

30:56

nothing has left you battlefield yet Minthara's ability

30:58

won't even go on the stack, even if

31:00

Teleportation Circle will flicker something there for you. Teleportation

31:02

Circle does not enable Minthara. That's why I'm

31:04

going to call this one overplayed and there are

31:06

so many other, possibly aristocrats things that you

31:08

could be doing with this commander that I don't

31:10

think you'll end up needing this one. You

31:12

can play other types of cards that will have

31:14

something leave your battlefield before you reach your

31:16

end step to enable Minthara to actually trigger and

31:18

give you that experience counter in the first

31:21

place. I would say watch out for Teleportation Circle

31:23

and cards like it that only trigger on

31:25

the end step. There's a timing non with her

31:27

there. So keep your eye out on that

31:29

one and maybe also keep your eye out

31:31

for whether or not I actually finally build

31:33

this one for my own proper EDH roster

31:35

and not just for when I'm drafting in

31:37

my challenge this week is from a patron.

31:39

Mr. Necromancer. so this is our listener submitted

31:41

challenge and mr. Necromancer is a new patreon

31:44

hey join our discord and be a patron

31:46

and you can get a card and challenge

31:48

stats This was for

31:50

the newish legend Kona Rescue

31:52

Beastie and at the time of

31:54

writing the card doleman is

31:56

only showing up in about 13

31:58

Kona decks. Kona basically has survival. It's

32:01

a 4-3 It's a 4-mana. At the beginning of your At

32:03

the beginning of your second main phase,

32:05

if phase, Kona is tapped, you may

32:07

put a permanent card from your hand onto

32:09

the battlefield, which is a really powerful

32:11

ability. But Kona has to

32:13

be tapped, meaning Kona has

32:15

to survive the the phase, assuming

32:18

you want to use that to

32:20

tap Kona. tap Kona, Domen Gate the rescue.

32:22

A two-minute artifact, all combat damage that

32:24

be dealt to attacking creatures you

32:26

control. just it lets you just

32:28

out with Kona and with able to play your then

32:30

be able to play your your second

32:32

free during your second main phase. And

32:34

Dominic a really great card in all really great

32:37

card in all it's situations, like it's

32:39

in this particular situation that enables Kona,

32:41

but it enables everything you're doing in

32:43

deck since you're since you're almost always winning

32:45

by swinging swing you your your creatures not

32:47

not have to worry about them

32:50

dying. a great card all around a great card

32:52

all around So that's a really good

32:54

use for it. players thank you digging through your

32:56

old Kona pulling a look at of Dolman Gate

32:58

through your talk about a card that's due for a card

33:00

out a a reprint one of of Yes. The card has crept add to

33:02

your deck. bit in price, but about a card that's due

33:04

for of decks that of these days. want this one. Kona The card

33:07

has crept up a little bit in price, but for this

33:09

one it good. one for lot of decks that I think

33:11

probably this one, and this a great home for this

33:13

one for sure. For sure. All right guys, so getting back

33:15

into our main topic here, I'd hinted

33:17

before that there are some other even

33:19

crunchier exceptions of I had that I had

33:21

wanted to interrogate our minds a little

33:24

bit about here. specific tutors, I am I say

33:26

hyper specific tutors, I am really, truly

33:28

trying to be like You know, hyper specific

33:30

tutors. or a buried know, I don't mean like

33:32

an in -tomb or a buried alive. tutor

33:34

that are certainly more niche than your

33:36

average tutor that can find any card

33:39

and get it right to your hand.

33:41

Those cards will get something just to

33:43

your graveyard, But like if you're you're playing graveyard stuff,

33:45

that's such a good ability that you know that

33:47

those cards are really cool. So are even though

33:49

they are even though they they're still like very popular and very,

33:51

very effective. that's And that's why I personally have

33:53

even moved away from using those ones. That's not

33:55

what I mean when I say say hyper specific. I don't

33:57

mean like like stuff for graveyard or or like that.

33:59

that. stuff like like of All, an iconic Shrines iconic are playing

34:01

a five-color If you are playing a five

34:04

color of All deck, Sanctum of All will

34:06

tutor up more in for you. And

34:08

in fact, that's kind of one of

34:10

the whole appeals of making a Shrine's

34:12

deck in the first place. So of what

34:14

of what I wanna talk about with

34:16

you guys are those effects that do happen

34:18

to tutor and which also maybe even

34:21

feel iconic or inevitable in some of

34:23

the strategies that they belong to. if you're

34:25

Like if you're playing a Shrine's deck

34:27

without that most iconic five shrine, as a deck

34:29

a in the in the deck building stage, something feels

34:31

weird. Yeah. And it kind of it kind of feeds

34:33

into a couple of other very, very, very niche

34:35

tutor types that might be out there, such

34:38

as as like type tutors. There are cards like

34:40

like Elvish Goblin or Goblin Triumph, are which are a niche specifically to

34:42

these creature types will be able to take

34:44

advantage of these. to And in the case

34:46

of a card like Elvish Harbinger, which also

34:48

just taps you for a mana or whatever

34:50

and also happens to find you taps you I

34:52

don't think I personally bat an eye at

34:54

that being in an elf deck that I

34:56

make or that anyone else makes because it

34:59

does sort of feel an eye much like there's

35:01

an inevitability to an elf that type of

35:03

thing. an Are there other things that it

35:05

does kind of feel like as a

35:07

deck that would be weird if they

35:09

were not there does it just feels like so

35:11

nonchalant if they they are there is maybe

35:13

a way to phrase it. How do

35:15

you feel about some of these? some of these?

35:17

So those, mentioned mentioned, the type of specific, like the like

35:19

that cards specific tutors

35:21

like that flame stuff, I stuff

35:23

that's all that think that's all

35:25

that agree just like you

35:28

you said the inevitability of of that. put

35:30

I would put that in of in

35:32

the same category as as Sylvan of

35:34

cards type of cards, where you have a fairly

35:36

finite. realm of of answers, but

35:38

it's also such a small card pool that's

35:40

integral to how any given deck is going

35:42

to function. I don't think

35:44

it's all that bad. bad. I I

35:46

that's less egregious to me. to me. Again,

35:48

on the scale, we we said pot

35:50

is halfway along there. I think a just

35:52

before Burthing it comes to when it comes

35:54

to how much internal struggle I have

35:56

with playing that. Cause when you're playing

35:58

Elvish Harbinger, you have so many you could

36:00

be doing, and there's so many different situations,

36:03

you could grab any given one. I

36:05

would say there's enough of a variety there

36:07

that most players are playing those because

36:09

you have a deep pool of potential targets

36:11

to get. Yeah, I think when you're

36:13

talking I think what stuff too, I think too, I

36:15

what the creature type is matters a lot

36:17

a lot too. Sure. able to, able you know, going

36:19

to get the best the best out of

36:22

your deck of your the best elf is probably

36:24

significantly less impactful than getting the best

36:26

dragon or the best sphinx out of your

36:28

deck. getting put it, you know. dragon or are

36:30

going to impact the game in different

36:32

ways. And as I say that, I'm

36:34

like, you know, those are in fact, to impact that,

36:36

different one of And don't think you're playing

36:38

a Murpho oh, to grab Thauss's Oracle. in

36:40

think those are different decks. Right, right.

36:42

that, that's, that's, yeah. One can hope. yeah, and even that's a and

36:44

even that's a different creature to like a

36:47

conduit of ruin in an Eldrazi deck and deck. And

36:49

like, conduit of ruin is so good

36:51

at helping you discount other Eldrazi things

36:53

that you play that it does sort

36:55

of feel like, does sort of it would almost

36:57

it of be odd not to see

36:59

that not to see that in a list and sure. I feel that

37:01

that way about some of these cards and

37:03

it's easy to point to like the

37:05

creature type version of that But then there

37:07

are also cards like are also cards like Grave another

37:10

example here here. That is a minute enchantment creature

37:12

that has lifelink It's a It's a four and it

37:14

searches your library for a card a card.

37:16

it into your your then you shuffle your

37:18

library you shelf your also discounts the spells that

37:20

you cast from your graveyard your means that

37:22

like that like, it's no it's no wonder that this

37:24

shows up in over half of Muldrotha grave

37:27

tied decks out because this is two types which

37:29

Muldrotha cares about out, about, it it discounts what Modrotha

37:31

is doing. is doing. it has that effect of being

37:33

of being like, well, of course it's going to show

37:35

up in one of those decks, or of those

37:37

another deck that also cares about this a

37:39

lot. deck It is a very broad type

37:41

of lot. but there are enough other components to

37:43

it that it does have that, again, inevitability

37:45

feeling to it showing up in a deck like

37:47

this. So if I were to build Modrotha,

37:49

I feel like I'd be so inevitably drawn

37:51

towards it that my usual rule of, eh,

37:53

I don't want to play like I'd fail against

37:55

that, and I'd feel pretty normal about that. And

37:57

that's I don't some of that play texture or

37:59

complication play. some of these tutors can can come up

38:01

and that's why why to make sure that we

38:03

make sure that we like here and that we could

38:05

offer grace to them if it feels like

38:08

they deserve some grace because I think some

38:10

of them do. some I don't think it's too

38:12

hard to give stuff like I don't think it's too hard

38:14

to give stuff like any sort of grace because they're

38:16

doing things other than just, of I'm going

38:18

to go find the best card in my

38:20

deck for two mana and that's it. I

38:22

think that there's enough best to running those outside

38:24

of the it. And that's it. that it's not all

38:26

that hard, at least in my mind, to

38:28

to something like that. that. A is similar

38:30

that folks probably put in the same

38:33

that I actually have a bigger

38:35

problem with is Sterling Grove. bigger problem with is

38:37

It's Grove. a white. Other enchantment. It's green and

38:39

pay other Sterling Grove, search library for

38:41

an enchantment card, reveal it, then

38:43

shuffle and put that card on top.

38:46

The reason I say Sterling Grove

38:48

is a little more egregious, I

38:50

think this is beyond that card on top. The

38:52

the birthing I say Sterling close to more

38:54

because the types of decks that

38:56

are playing Sterling Grove the are

38:58

those example and pretty close to type of decks

39:00

that you you don't really see Grove a

39:02

casually played deck deck very often. the So

39:05

I think the intent and where Sterling

39:07

Grove gets played more that more to me

39:09

to me than the examples you with

39:11

like Grave Breaker Lamia. I mean, yeah, like a a

39:13

lot of this stuff has got so

39:15

much much on the deck on in. it's

39:17

in. I just, Sterling Grove, I think back

39:19

to, to, had a a cigar, of of Huron's

39:21

deck for a lot of years of

39:23

ran Sterling Grove. And I'm not sure

39:26

I ever cracked Sterling Grove to

39:28

go get an enchantment. was was much. much valuable

39:30

to me as a way to

39:32

give my enchantments protection via shroud was was as

39:34

just a to to go get one of

39:36

of my enchantments. But that's that's. how that

39:38

particular deck was and how I played how

39:40

I played it and that might not

39:42

apply to anyone else's version of

39:44

that deck. lot of that stuff, like lot of

39:46

that stuff those cards, is one of those

39:48

cards. Like you mentioned earlier Joey,

39:50

I never even thought about it as

39:52

a tutor. That was entirely something

39:54

I thought spell. protection spell. Yeah. This

39:56

is so interesting. And Matt, I think

39:58

there's something you said that. that does

40:00

kind of unlock a piece of this

40:02

to me. When it comes to

40:04

what you and Dana were saying about

40:06

the context of each of these,

40:08

there is definitely a difference between an

40:10

enchantment deck enchantment is one of the

40:12

most popular and most powerful archetypes

40:14

that exists in EDH. It's practically a

40:17

storm deck with some of the

40:19

ways that those Enchantress decks can work.

40:21

There's a difference between that type

40:23

of deck, of the ways that those Enchantress decks can deck,

40:25

a difference between that type of deck prosper deck, not

40:27

playing tutors silly a different situation than

40:29

a drag deck not playing tutors. Those are very

40:31

different are very of commander. Right. And so the

40:33

context that you're pointing out there is, And so

40:35

also very important with how we end up

40:37

feeling about whether or not we're going to

40:39

end up putting these into our own decks.

40:41

with the way, do you guys have thoughts

40:44

or experience about tutors in the command zone? we're

40:46

going some experience putting these into our own decks. By the by, do you

40:48

guys have thoughts or experience about tutors in the command zone? I've have

40:50

some was first previewed in, personally. 2015, match 2015 I

40:52

think? I think I think? I I think so.

40:54

I I was like, a I wanted a

40:56

deck deck and this looks like a, a,

40:58

you know, kind of a silly thing

41:00

and it had it hadn't it's a CEDH level

41:02

deck like at the the time that it wasn't something

41:04

that was recognized for being powerful. I

41:06

for well, this would be kind of

41:08

a fun thing to do will be kind of a

41:11

fun I And deck and it became very

41:13

apparent like three games in, oh, this

41:15

deck is just going to to the

41:17

same every single time. time. So I had

41:19

the I had the land base what became

41:21

what became my recce deck because

41:23

I had a mono green shell it

41:25

it was relatively easy to convert that

41:27

over, but I didn't enjoy that play

41:29

style either. Like it's not something that I

41:31

found particularly fun and that would be

41:33

the same way I would imagine I

41:35

would feel about to say it's or

41:37

something along those lines that that I

41:39

that kind of similar fun. And

41:41

of the would be For the most part, you're

41:43

going to grab the same things every single

41:45

time. or have played against Tiamat a couple

41:47

times in Braw. And it's always the exact same same

41:49

always are grabbing are grabbing and just you grab TMA

41:52

gonna grab three dragons that win

41:54

the game and then maybe a cheaper

41:56

dragon. dragon and then else, else a

41:58

wild card, but but again, again I want

42:00

to play a singleton format, I want to embrace

42:02

a little bit of randomness. And so yeah, these

42:04

specifically, I'm just, I'm not going to find room

42:07

to play in. I'm going to do the exact

42:09

same thing every time with it and just the

42:11

temptation is too, it's too great to really do

42:13

anything otherwise. You're grabbing the exact same thing every

42:15

time. And I think that repetitive nature of it

42:17

also is going to be a reason I'm not

42:20

going to want to play it. There are some

42:22

situations where hidden commanders, for example, like that's almost

42:24

impossible to play unless you are running tutors. Right.

42:26

And while it's not necessarily a hidden commander, I

42:28

have an atheros deck that's, it's a pestilence deck,

42:30

like the way the deck functions. is built around

42:33

having pestilence in play. Or I guess withering wisps

42:35

a second version of pestilence. But that's really it.

42:37

There's two of those cards. After that I'm getting

42:39

down to, you know, running creatures that do a

42:41

similar thing like thrashing Wumpus, which half of you

42:43

listeners right now think I just made up because

42:46

they've never heard of that card. It's a real

42:48

actual magic card. And like that's like my third

42:50

best pestilence in the deck, right? Like that's how

42:52

rapidly things fall off. So I still have a

42:54

couple of tutors in that deck because like if

42:56

I don't, it just doesn't work. If I can't

42:59

go get one of those pestilence effects. So like,

43:01

you know, I say don't run tutors, but that

43:03

deck has I think three of them because I...

43:05

I need to have ways to get one of

43:07

those cards into play. The Hidden Commanders thing is

43:10

a place where I feel like I end up

43:12

giving a lot more exceptions for sure to even

43:14

the broadest of broad tutors that are out there

43:16

because yeah, if you do have a specific card

43:18

in the 99 that you're trying to build around,

43:20

you do kind of got to actually finally see

43:23

it. And you can't rely upon just raw card

43:25

advantage to finally get you to that point. I

43:27

think probably one of the most famous examples of

43:29

a hidden commander. You can start the mind razor

43:31

deck where he wanted to wheel and deal a

43:33

bunch of damage, but not just in Grix's colors.

43:36

But then you do have to actually find that

43:38

thing in the first place. I'm not sure if

43:40

he still has that deck around anymore, but like.

43:42

Hayden is a thing that

43:44

we do see people

43:46

talking about online pretty regularly

43:49

and a lot of

43:51

folks will play regularly, that

43:53

can help you search of

43:55

deck a little bit more

43:57

easily some find some of

44:00

those things. help you the deck a

44:02

little more another one that

44:04

can tutor your deck as

44:06

well to help you

44:08

find something specific. is another one

44:10

right there in the command

44:13

zone deck as well to having

44:15

a whole density of them.

44:17

specific. So think one of the weird

44:19

ways that I end up feeling about some of

44:21

those is that, deck as well you are playing those to

44:23

help you find that first thing. So But an

44:25

odd thing that comes up when you do have

44:27

tutors in your deck with a hidden commander as

44:29

the deck the deck. is that if if you do find

44:32

that thing with the first tutor that you play, deck

44:34

still deck still has a whole bunch of other

44:36

tutors in it because because you have a high density

44:38

of them. So then when you do have that

44:40

hidden commander strategy finally online, you still have all of

44:42

those other tutors that can still find you the

44:44

rifts and the other answers other answers that you might need

44:46

or the other wind conditions. so that's a weird thing about it. I'm like,

44:48

yeah, I'll about it. I'm like, a I'll totally give

44:50

a pass like a hidden a for sure. for But

44:52

then also there's this other part, the the practical reality

44:54

of it of it is if there are still a

44:56

high density of tutors in the rest deck, that

44:59

still does affect how the rest of the deck

45:01

can play. the And maybe it does accidentally cause some

45:03

of the situations that you were describing you were a

45:05

little bit of the tension and the suspense and

45:07

the drama at the end of the game of the

45:09

game up feeling just a little bit punctured punctured the

45:11

tutors did play such a big role in causing

45:13

that to happen an than letting an unexpected drama

45:15

unfold. So So of complicated feelings about this one, I

45:17

think. I think. So we all all have a

45:19

friend all three of us have a

45:22

friend who plays who plays, the hidden world So

45:24

it's not really world, so because we all

45:26

know this deck as soon as he

45:28

sits down soon as he sits down. But it's a nightmare, I love

45:30

it. Oh, it's the most the most obnoxious deck

45:32

to play against especially because I like

45:34

playing I like playing permanence World doesn't let you play

45:36

doesn't let but yeah, permanence. and the density of

45:38

ways in which this person's recurring world World

45:40

over and over and over again. And

45:42

even when you find ways to get rid

45:45

of it, they still have like have like rift

45:47

all these ways to get it back

45:49

from get it back from And so And the deck

45:51

definitely has this problem where sometimes you just

45:53

sit there and all you have are

45:55

tutors, the but the thing's already in your

45:57

hand or it's already in the graveyard. graveyard.

45:59

so finding. That and it's just like any

46:02

other deck I guess like you need

46:04

to find that balance of how am

46:06

I going to find it? to am

46:08

I going to that Do all those

46:10

how things going to when how am going to recur

46:12

a all card it gets a little

46:14

more tricky to kind of play around

46:16

having that as your your secret

46:18

commander. I'm just having flashbacks to playing

46:20

a little more tricky to kind It got me

46:22

a little bit stunned. that as your time

46:24

that a Warp I'm just having flashbacks to is

46:26

the last time. It never is. It

46:28

never is is And you are

46:30

wrong. you are reality is that is wrong. you're

46:33

wrong. But yeah, so yeah, there is there is a

46:35

of a push and pull with giving

46:37

tutors to a hidden to a hidden I deck.

46:39

I absolutely, because example that all three

46:41

of us have had a very of

46:43

reaction about, very visceral reaction such a balance a

46:45

balance though, comes down to, down to. what

46:47

is the in in the deck? it

46:49

to, again, find things? Is it to things? Is

46:51

it to find the best thing?

46:53

Or is it to find something that,

46:55

you have? The you have? The deck doesn't

46:57

really do anything I get I get

46:59

this thing. So willing to make or I'm

47:01

willing to make willing to make exceptions to get

47:03

the pestilence that I absolutely need. Otherwise, my deck

47:05

just doesn't do anything. And especially are there

47:07

some of those tutors that seem to have the

47:09

restriction, but they're not being deployed in ways

47:11

that actually use that restriction, like scheming symmetry. that

47:13

And that can be a very interesting political card

47:15

where it's not just you that's tutoring, but

47:17

you're also forcing someone else to search their deck

47:19

and put something on top as well. But

47:21

there are ways of manipulating that as well. tutoring, but

47:23

from the top of their deck. Or as

47:25

I understand it, it's a pop of the card

47:27

in competitive circles because they're not going to

47:29

get but you're use the card that you're putting on

47:31

top else to search call deck and can be another one.

47:33

It's just like, as well. and then I'll pass it

47:35

to somebody else for them to tutor on

47:37

their turn, but they're not getting another turn because

47:39

of the thing I just turn because of the thing not

47:41

like there are some of those as well.

47:43

So I think some of these tutors do end

47:46

up having these restrictions that make them look up

47:48

or look not that great, but people still

47:50

find niche or look are really good at finding ways

47:52

to abuse the like, out of these cards. are So

47:54

maybe in terms of that, it just comes

47:56

down to So spirit of the way that you're

47:58

using some of these. What is the spirit the. of

48:00

the the and how you're honoring that

48:02

in that kind of an interesting thing

48:04

to examine in your own deck examine

48:06

in your own wish Claude Talisman is just

48:08

Yeah, I wish tutor with a different marketing

48:10

team. a It still tutor with the same

48:12

thing. team. It play is Claude Talisman,

48:14

you're gonna tutor up the thing and then

48:16

you're gonna win the game. play West just an extra

48:18

copy. you're gonna tutor up the thing, I don't

48:20

think there's all that much the game. It's I

48:22

know an extra the cards, there's

48:25

a huge difference. think Functionally, there really isn't.

48:27

An interesting final note that I I of

48:29

want to put in here. put in folks

48:31

are familiar with the legendary with podcast,

48:33

they did an episode quite some time

48:35

ago about how they did an experiment

48:37

in their play group with a hard a

48:39

hard of tutors from their entire meta.

48:41

They all They a group agreed, a were

48:43

no longer playing anything that can search

48:45

your deck, unless it is as a group of

48:47

elder type of thing to just go

48:49

ahead and ramp you. They made an

48:51

exception for that. But that alone, is anything

48:53

else elder type of thing and put it into

48:55

your hand or whatever. They They made an exception no

48:57

more of these, we want to try it

48:59

out. out. And in that episode, they they how they

49:01

kind of have enjoyed it and they don't

49:03

necessarily miss that experience. They've stuck with this

49:05

as as of a rule for themselves within

49:08

their meta. their meta. And an interesting thing in listening

49:10

to that episode of them recounting how that

49:12

experiment happened and what had to adjust as

49:14

a result of that, which as a got worse

49:16

or better as a result of that. worse or

49:18

interesting a result of that they have while recounting

49:20

that big change recounting that much that experience was

49:22

able to refocus to refocus how Commander as a game was

49:24

a space where you get to just hang

49:26

out with your friends. that was a that was a

49:28

really cool thing to hear them talk about there,

49:31

when they're not when they're not playing with friends, when

49:33

they're playing with strangers, how those can become

49:35

your friends. it kind of of took pressure off of

49:37

a certain type of experience and allowed them to

49:39

really just enjoy company with each other. They

49:41

do great work. with each other. They do a really interesting

49:43

episode if you want to listen to them talk

49:45

about that whole experience. And it's a note

49:47

that I think belongs here in this episode where

49:49

we're talking about tutors again to bring it

49:51

full circle about And of the reasons why we're belongs

49:53

here the absence where we're We have a couple

49:55

of exceptions here and there, but more and

49:57

more what we enjoy seems to be that

49:59

drama, that the and the ability to josh around

50:01

with each other rather than having some

50:03

of the cards suddenly the game into a

50:05

completely different gear shift And that's just

50:07

a thing that I think is kind of

50:09

a nice note to end on. Yeah

50:11

That's that kind of perfectly sums up my

50:13

thoughts on it as well, Joey. Yeah

50:16

perfect thoughts no notes Yeah, let's wrap up

50:18

perfect thoughts. I have perfect thoughts Matt

50:20

the once. Yeah Not every time

50:22

I don't I don't like your your

50:24

head get too big Joey. There it is

50:26

I was just like wow just an

50:28

unabashed compliment, but no that's got the sneaky

50:30

instant speed It's got split second. I

50:32

Listen, we all have moms and we all

50:34

know like they like to lift us

50:36

up but not too high you got to

50:38

knock them down a peg or two

50:40

every now and then Well, thank you mom

50:42

Morgan for being that present here on

50:44

the podcast All right folks We want to

50:46

hear what your thoughts are about tutors

50:48

Do you play them in your decks and

50:50

if so which ones which places do you make

50:52

exceptions for? On that note that we are going to call

50:54

this episode to a close. So close. fellas, if our listeners want

50:56

to get in touch with us, where is it that they

50:58

can find us on the online's Matt? So you

51:00

can find me on pretty much any social

51:02

media platform at 55 that's M -A -T -H -I

51:04

-M -U -S -5 -5. And don't forget, we're gonna

51:06

be at magic Chicago coming up at the

51:08

end of February. So if you want to

51:10

hang out, get some games in, we will

51:12

be doing a live show on Sunday. So

51:14

make sure you come to Magicon Chicago, hang

51:16

out with us and come and attend because

51:18

it's gonna be a real super fun time.

51:20

magic are always great we'll look forward to

51:22

seeing you all there. and Dana, you can

51:25

find me online at Dana I'm writing articles

51:27

for EDH track and commanders Herald and you

51:29

can find all of us together. at .com.

51:31

Plus media trackcast I'm Joey You can

51:33

find me everywhere online from Instagram to Blue

51:35

Sky at Joseph M. online, and you

51:37

can find the cast online at EDH reccast

51:39

everywhere, plus if you got a question

51:41

for us, perhaps a challenge to stats submission

51:43

that you would like to send our

51:45

way, you can contact us at idiot reccast

51:47

at gmail.com. Listeners will be back at

51:49

you next week with more data and insights,

51:51

but until then, remember, EDH Rec your

51:54

before you wreck your deck.