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Boneless for your next watch

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party. Someone just wrapped up the

0:28

title of Most Valuable

0:30

Host. Hello

0:40

and welcome to the EDH Redcast, where we're

0:42

all about Commander, Data, and Dad Jokes. I'm

0:45

Joey Shultz, and I'm joined by my fantastic

0:47

co-hosts. Up first, he thought that either drift

0:49

was actually aathered rift, a sequel to Cyclonic

0:51

rift. It's Matt Morgan. So I got my

0:54

partner a golden bracelet and I asked her

0:56

to wear it. She said, it's just not

0:58

really the aesthetic. I think it's too loud

1:00

for me. I said, well, well, that makes

1:03

sense. It's a heavy metal band. It's a

1:05

heavy metal band. It's a heavy

1:07

metal band. Hey, you need to stop

1:09

talking about gold, Matt. Well, maybe it's

1:11

more treasure. That's a little more improved

1:14

than gold, yeah. I was doing a

1:16

chemical element joke there. Hey, you, come

1:18

on, bro. You got to see my

1:21

dad's in return, too. Ah. See, I

1:23

totally didn't expect it coming from you,

1:25

so nice job. You really worked it

1:28

in there. Right. Up next, he knows

1:30

that either drift, that set, a send-up

1:32

of Fast and Furious, clearly, is going

1:34

to have the most important mechanic

1:37

of all. It'll be all about

1:39

family. It's Dana Road. It's so cold out

1:41

here today, my barometer broke. could not handle

1:43

the pressure. Shoot, I think I'm missing something

1:45

on this one. I was so clever with

1:48

my own joke that I am just tunnel-visioned

1:50

on. I don't know the other one here.

1:52

I really like the atmosphere of that joke.

1:54

That really set up very, very well. No,

1:57

there it is. Now it's watching over me.

1:59

Now I feel the shame. All right. Cool.

2:01

Matt, what is it that we're talking about

2:03

in this week's episode? So this week we're

2:06

going to give some light on two cards

2:08

that maybe you shouldn't let your opponents keep

2:10

around. Oftentimes these cards we're going to talk

2:12

about, they're not up to any good. They're

2:15

oftentimes going to be fairly dubious to let

2:17

them sit around so we're going to make

2:19

sure that you all know as an audience

2:21

not to let these cards sit around for

2:24

too long. Yeah, a couple of things that

2:26

should really draw your focus. They won't be

2:28

later. Yeah, this will be really interesting. We've

2:30

got a couple of things we want

2:33

to shout out before we get into

2:35

this topic, though. First, find us in

2:37

Magic on Chicago. We will be at

2:39

the convention February 21st to the 23rd,

2:42

playing some games, meeting some folks, and

2:44

we're doing a panel on Sunday. So

2:46

come hang out with us for a

2:48

live show. We are also now probably

2:51

suited up as knights of the order

2:53

of Dragon Shield, I bought. when I

2:55

got into EDH, and they've kept my

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decks safe for a decade, and it

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feels good to be using them again.

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They come in a dazzling array of

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3:12

out the custom sleeves we'll have there.

3:15

Find us for a game or find

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us at the Dragon Shield booth. Just

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click on the link in the description

3:21

below to get 5% off your purchase

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and make sure sleeves cheaper and it

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supports the show. Remember, the idiot's recast

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some more ways to support the show,

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there's a ton of ways to do

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supporting us monetarily. So make sure you

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head over to patreon.com/EDH recast for all

3:55

of those, including the patron shout-out tier,

3:58

which everybody wants. And this week. we're

4:00

going to give a very special

4:02

shout out to Jonathan Fisk. So

4:04

please don't tell your cousin Wilson

4:06

Fisk, aka. The Kingpin? Yeah, that

4:08

one. I knew it was a

4:10

comic book name. Jonathan, thank you

4:12

for not sending us to sleep

4:14

with the fishes that are owned

4:16

by your cousin Wilson. Definitely our

4:18

favorite patron, yes. So much. Try

4:20

to keep the king of it

4:22

happy, are you Matt? Absolutely, I've

4:24

seen the cartoons, saw the show,

4:26

and Vincent de Nafrio is quite

4:29

intimidating, so if Jonathan, if your cousin

4:31

looks like that... We are intimidated. Well,

4:33

all right guys, let's get into our

4:35

main topic here. These are cards that

4:37

are up to no good. Maybe they

4:39

don't look like they're doing anything at

4:41

first, but a little bit later in

4:43

the game, if they've been allowed to

4:45

stick around, they will definitely become a

4:47

problem. And Matt, this was an idea

4:49

that you proposed for a show topic.

4:51

I'm kind of wondering if there's any

4:53

specific moment or specific card that inspired

4:55

that inspired this topic for you. Yeah,

4:57

so I was actually watching an episode

4:59

of the command zone recently and... Rachel and

5:01

Jimmy were both talking about how they identify

5:03

who the threat is at the table. And

5:06

there are a couple cards I kept mentioning

5:08

that I thought to myself, now, hold on.

5:10

If you're letting somebody cast an illusionist

5:12

bracers, that card is very rarely ever

5:14

cast with good intentions. And they had

5:17

a really fantastic conversation. So make sure

5:19

you check out that video first. But

5:21

there are just some cards I kind

5:23

of got thinking about. I was like,

5:25

no, if I see somebody with this

5:27

card or that card. I'm not going to

5:29

give them the benefit of the doubt because

5:31

so often like nobody's playing card like I

5:34

don't play the card a learn with good

5:36

intentions I play that card to win the

5:38

game and so I recently played in a

5:40

game where I had a learn and I

5:42

was allowed to untap multiple times with it

5:45

and nobody should let me do that. I

5:47

can admit I'm the problem, hi, it's me.

5:49

And these are a bunch of cards that

5:51

kind of fit into that category. And just

5:53

for clarity's sake here, Alarin is an enchantment

5:56

to a double green. Any player may play

5:58

creature cards with converted manicost. three

6:00

or less without paying their manicost

6:02

and as though they had flash.

6:04

That is a really powerful effect,

6:06

particularly if you are building around

6:08

it, and that's usually how it

6:10

winds up working, you are playing

6:12

a deck that can utilize that

6:14

way better than anyone else's. And

6:16

Illusious Bracers is a two-man artifact

6:18

equipment, and whenever an ability of

6:20

equipped creature is activated, if it's

6:22

a man or equipped creature is

6:24

activated, if it isn't a man

6:26

and ability, copy that ability, and

6:28

you may choose new targets for the

6:30

copy. And crucially, for a card like

6:33

illusion, like illusionus, a feto alchemist, and

6:35

then you can use the feto alchemist's

6:37

ability to untap itself, but that ability

6:39

is copied by the bracers, which then

6:41

allows you to also untap your other

6:43

artifacts, say your manorocks, at which point

6:45

you are producing. infinite manner. So it

6:48

isn't just the case of getting an

6:50

extra hit off of Boberigmos and Rage

6:52

dealing a little bit more damage, although

6:54

for the record even that sounds very

6:56

dangerous. This is fully a case of

6:58

like, oh, the game could be over

7:00

because of the infinite situation that just occurred.

7:02

And that can also be the case with

7:05

the lure. Like these cards are actually hints

7:07

at potential infinite combos in the future. They're

7:09

not doing anything on their own, but if

7:11

they are allowed to just stick and stay

7:13

there, up the rest of that game. Well

7:15

and the problem I think maybe I misread

7:17

the table a little bit but Dana you

7:19

you know because you've been playing long enough

7:21

you see an alert you don't let that

7:23

person do anything the rest of the game

7:26

because they're they're just gonna mess it up

7:28

everything gets to be cast at instant speed

7:30

and when I cast it the table

7:32

that I was at they saw it

7:34

and said Oh, so I can cast

7:36

my things too. That's neat. And that

7:38

was the end of the conversation. That's

7:40

not how that conversation should have gone.

7:42

No. Because they found out a couple

7:44

turns later I cast six hair parents

7:46

and got six cases of those triggers

7:48

all happen and I won the game.

7:50

That's what happens when you cast a

7:52

lot of these spells is you let

7:54

the person on tap with them. Usually

7:57

things aren't gonna go well for you.

7:59

What a learn. Actually says in reality

8:01

is you're gonna cast a couple

8:03

creatures at flash speed for free

8:05

and I'm gonna cast all of

8:07

the creatures at FlashBeep for free.

8:10

Yeah, guys, it's symmetrical. So it's

8:12

totally good for everyone, right? It's

8:14

totally fair. It's totally fair. Yeah,

8:16

I absolutely am playing this with

8:18

good intentions because I want to

8:20

help all three of you. Said

8:22

no alert player ever. Right, just

8:24

like any board wipe is symmetrical

8:26

too. Yeah, it doesn't feel symmetrical

8:28

when it happens. And that can

8:30

also be true of cards like this.

8:33

And that's the whole point of this

8:35

episode is making sure we've. during a

8:37

game. Yeah, well, why don't we get

8:40

into more examples? Because I love talking

8:42

about a learn. I also don't want

8:44

to out some of my industry secrets.

8:47

Let's get into some of these cards

8:49

that folks should be keeping an eye

8:51

out because these show up in a

8:53

lot of different games. I think a

8:56

lot of the cards weren't talking about

8:58

here to start off, but you're

9:00

not playing that particular card if

9:02

it's doing something, someone innocent. And

9:05

the easy example to start with

9:07

is Spore Frog. On the face,

9:09

Spore Frog looks like you are

9:11

just playing a creature that gives

9:14

you the option to use it

9:16

as a fog. So Spore Frog

9:18

is a one man of frog.

9:20

It's a one-man of frog. It's

9:23

a one-one. Sacrifice Spore Frog, prevent

9:25

all combat damage that will be

9:27

dealt this turn. Looks like it's,

9:29

you know, just a simple fog effect.

9:32

No one's playing Spore Frog as a...

9:34

fog effect. I mean, they are, but

9:36

they're plugged as a fog effect that

9:38

they intend to reuse through some kind

9:40

of looping mechanism, whether it's a reanimation

9:43

or whatever it is, each and every

9:45

single turn. You a lot of times see

9:47

it in like a marin deck or a

9:49

mildrotha deck where the intent is to replay

9:52

Spore Frog every single turn and prevent you

9:54

from ever being able to swing through the

9:56

profitable attack. Yeah. Yeah. This is a lockout

9:58

piece in those decks. It is wild. And

10:01

the thing is, one of the hints of

10:03

this too, you probably will notice it just

10:05

from like the commander being Oltrotha or whatever,

10:07

but there are so many nasty fogs out

10:09

there that can give you a huge upswing

10:11

or huge benefit, arachnogenesis and stuff like that,

10:14

but there are one time effect, whereas this...

10:16

Like if you see this one, that specifically

10:18

means art, there's going to be a recursion

10:20

loop, otherwise they would be using different types

10:22

of frogs that are more of a surprise.

10:25

This one is so repeatable and so much

10:27

of an issue. As soon as you see

10:29

that one in play, I think there needs

10:31

to be a pretty concerted effort from everyone

10:33

else at the table to be like, hey,

10:35

this person needs to be pressured or else

10:38

we will never deal any combat damage to

10:40

them ever, ever again throughout the rest of

10:42

this game. This is a problem. as sport

10:44

frog if you see this cast you know

10:46

that pretty much no matter what happens it

10:48

turns into a three-view one you kind of

10:51

become the arch enemy and concept miss is

10:53

one in a green for an instant it

10:55

but has buyback where you can sacrifice a

10:57

land and then it's a fog effect well

10:59

the problem is all these landfill decks

11:01

well they can't play lands that are

11:03

in battlefield so they sacrifice the land

11:05

get constant miss back to their hand

11:08

and they just replay those lands from

11:10

their graveyard whether they're using you know

11:12

crucible worlds type of effects or whatever

11:14

Constant Miss is absolutely a pain and

11:16

I've cast many constant Miss. such a

11:18

struggle and it's the same thing as

11:20

Sporfrog. Both of these cards, as somebody

11:22

who really enjoys the combat step, I

11:24

hate it when I see these cards

11:26

being cast by somebody else. See also

11:28

Kami of False Hope, which is Sporfrog,

11:30

but in White. And you know, there

11:33

are also plenty of cards that can

11:35

recur those allurists or whatever can bring

11:37

those back. And White has a lot

11:39

of ways of recurring tiny creatures as

11:41

well. So even though it's not quite

11:43

as direct as direct as you for

11:46

you if you. even if they're not

11:48

playing the traditional reanimation stuff. Yeah, all

11:50

cards are frustrating when it comes to

11:52

just preventing combat damage because it's so

11:54

easy to, especially creature versions. It's so

11:56

easy to recur those in so many different decks

11:58

that it really does feel. Super,

12:00

super punishing if you can't handle it right away. Well,

12:04

Dana, it's so funny that you would

12:06

mention an example that is very near

12:08

and dear to my heart as the

12:10

nasty graveyard player that I have always

12:12

been. And I've recurred many a sport

12:14

frog in my time. I want to

12:16

pick an example here that I think

12:18

will be very familiar to you, Dana.

12:20

And it is similar to the commander,

12:22

Dragon Lord Dremoka. I specifically want to

12:24

talk about Grand Abolisher as my example

12:26

here. And Dragon Lord Dremoka I know

12:29

is a commander that you have a

12:31

lot of experience against because you have

12:33

a buddy with a Dremoka deck. And the crucial

12:35

thing that these two cards share in common,

12:37

Dremoka and Grand Abolisher, is that your opponents can't

12:39

cast spells on your turn. And

12:41

that is frustrating and awesome, but

12:43

frustrating. And it's again, one of

12:46

those things that for the most

12:48

part, no one's dropping a Grand

12:50

Abolisher in like being like, okay,

12:52

now I'm just going to play the

12:55

game normally and not have anyone cast counter

12:57

spells. That's not how that works. I just

12:59

happen to have this in my deck just

13:01

in case I run into someone who's playing

13:03

a ton of counter spells. It's not a

13:05

thing that anyone ever says. They're dropping a

13:07

Grand Abolisher so they can win that turn

13:09

and not have anyone stop that from happening.

13:11

Or even if it's not, I'm going to

13:13

cast this so I can win this turn.

13:15

I'm going to cast this so I'm going

13:17

to do something even crazier next turn. Yes.

13:19

And then I'm going to cast an Overrun

13:21

effect. I'm to cast a Craterhoof Behemoth. I'm

13:23

to cast all these game -winning spells now that

13:25

I've taken away your ability to interrupt what

13:27

I'm trying to do. Or just comboing off,

13:29

doing something big, maybe not this turn, but

13:31

next turn for sure. Oh, yeah. This card

13:33

shows up in 9 % of decks that are

13:35

eligible to play it, including plenty of like

13:38

five -colored decks out there, specifically because of

13:40

its ability to shut off counter spells for

13:42

CEDH territory, combo territory. Make sure that no

13:44

one can counter spell the stuff that you're

13:46

up to. Sure. I think in just general

13:48

games of Commander, though, this is still like

13:50

totally dangerous because of, like, not even being

13:52

able to, not just cast spells, but you

13:54

also can't activate abilities of Artifact Creatures or

13:56

Enchantments, either. So, Spore Frog, ha -ha, you

13:58

have met your match again. the grand abolisher,

14:00

you will not be able to fog the

14:02

combats from this one, but not being able

14:04

to interrupt a combat step, even with removal

14:07

effects, not even just a fog effects, that

14:09

is actually huge. I think this starts off

14:11

as being an appealing way for people to

14:13

be like, oh, maybe I can have my

14:15

attacks be interrupted. and it starts there and

14:17

it very very quickly escalates into oh no

14:19

this secures me my wins yeah anytime you

14:22

see a city of solitude type of effect

14:24

which is a probably the original version of

14:26

these types of cards where it just restricts

14:28

when people can be casting their spells the

14:30

original city of solitude said each player may

14:33

cast spells and abilities only on their turn

14:35

gross so yeah it's just absolutely strips strips

14:37

strips away those are really cards if it's

14:39

removing people's ability to interact with other people

14:42

that usually is a pretty clear green light

14:44

that this person is trying to do something

14:46

that they you need to interrupt you

14:48

need to disrupt this game plan because it's

14:51

you're not gonna have very much longer to

14:53

do that. I was thinking dose in the

14:55

fallen leaf, which Dana, I want to say,

14:57

is a card that you've got in a

14:59

mono green legends deck of yours as well.

15:02

That also stops people from doing stuff on

15:04

other people's turns as well. And any time

15:06

I see that, I know that it's not

15:08

going to go well for me if I

15:10

let it live. So that cards up to

15:13

no good. I have to go well for

15:15

me if I let it live. So that

15:17

cards up to no good. That's a card

15:19

that comes down when I'm doing an Alpha

15:21

Strike. that Grand Abolisher sets up so they're

15:23

gonna have one turn that kills you. There

15:25

are definitely cards that maybe they're not setting

15:27

up for a turn that's gonna kill you,

15:29

but you might only have a turn with

15:31

any sort of agency left in the game.

15:33

And cards I'm talking about specifically are gonna

15:35

be stuff like Sterling Grove or Sphere of

15:37

Safety. where there's not so much lockout pieces,

15:39

but they're definitely prison pieces where you're

15:41

going to lose the ability to kind

15:43

of meaningfully interact with what they're doing

15:45

in a pretty short order where Sterling

15:48

Grove, that's the classic Schlesney Enchantment that's

15:50

at other enchantments you control have shroud,

15:52

that you could pay one and sacrifice

15:54

Sterling Grove to search your library for

15:56

an enchantment card, but on top of

15:58

your library. Those types of effects. where

16:00

I'm gonna set up and just pillow

16:02

fort and make sure that you don't

16:04

get to attack me and don't get

16:06

to mess with any of my stuff.

16:08

That's another kind of red flag for

16:10

me is, okay, what are they trying

16:13

to protect? Because it's usually so much

16:15

worse than the Sterling Grove, just protecting

16:17

it in general. So another cart that

16:19

no one has ever played with intentions

16:21

of playing it fairly, grave packed, those

16:23

are enchantments that whenever you lose a

16:25

creature, your opponents also sacrifice a

16:27

creature. No one casts grave packed. And

16:30

then goes, well, if something I control

16:32

dies, you guys are going to lose

16:34

a creature too. What happens is someone

16:36

casts those when they have, you know,

16:38

a bunch of Eldrazi science and play

16:40

that they can sacrifice that will, or

16:42

when they have something that they can

16:44

cast on a recurring loop, whether it's

16:46

coming back from our chase of the

16:48

black rose, or it's like a reskelling

16:50

skeleton that brings itself back, that's just

16:52

done to wipe your board to wipe

16:54

your board. breaks parody and doesn't

16:56

affect the person who is casting it

16:58

nearly as much. Some of the Ora

17:00

shards tends to only come down in

17:03

a situation where the person is about

17:05

to put 14 tokens into play. I

17:07

am very guilty of playing Ora shards

17:09

with bad intentions. I can fully endorse

17:11

that this card belongs on that list.

17:13

I only have it in one deck

17:16

specifically because it is that type of

17:18

hardware. If it's at the higher power

17:20

levels, sure, that's kind of where you

17:22

get into all things are on the

17:24

table, but definitely I do not play any

17:27

of these cards. I don't play Dicative Arabos

17:29

anyways, but it's definitely at the higher power

17:31

tables. Well, and it's funny to observe, like,

17:33

you know, the Dicative Arabos example, something like

17:35

that. I don't think it's fooling anyone when

17:37

that one hits the field. That one, you

17:39

see it, it's making people lose their stuff.

17:41

We know that it's up to no good,

17:44

but I think really what is the important

17:46

point to hit on here. It isn't saying

17:48

don't play these cards, obviously not. Play what

17:50

you want, play what people find fun. But

17:52

it's more like, don't put this card into

17:54

your deck willingly is more the thing here. This

17:56

is very indicative of the type of deck that

17:59

we'll be able to. to particularly abuse it.

18:01

So it's maybe not even just a watch

18:03

out for this one on the battlefield, but

18:05

it's like watch out for that one in

18:07

deck lists, because if it's in a deck

18:10

list, then that entire deck is very much

18:12

built to abuse cards like these. These types

18:14

of cards do not appear in a deck,

18:16

so to speak. Yeah. Because once you've got

18:19

a sphere of safety or a dictator or

18:21

whatever in play, they're taking up a lot

18:23

of a lot of attention as soon as

18:25

they're there. They're not necessarily a secret. That's

18:28

a good point Joey and like actually one

18:30

thing I want to clarify because like I've

18:32

used the word fair. I don't mean that

18:34

is a value judgment. I mean that as

18:37

like an evaluation of the cards effectiveness right?

18:39

Like I'm not saying you are doing something

18:41

that's like unfair and you shouldn't do it

18:44

when I say no one's playing these cards

18:46

fairly. I'm saying no one's playing them in

18:48

a way that doesn't provide you the person

18:50

playing them with significant advantage in the game.

18:53

Yeah, I think a good way to describe

18:55

these is, these are Eniga Montoya cards, where

18:57

I don't think that card does what you

18:59

think that card does. Because it does so

19:02

much more, I should say, than what just

19:04

the card text actually says on the box.

19:06

Something funny here, hitting off of your point,

19:08

Matt, about like, these cards indicate potential loss

19:11

of agency in the future. I kind of

19:13

have that feeling about Cardor. And I have

19:15

that feeling because I built that deck. I'm

19:17

sure. Yeah. Cardor is the demon who enters

19:20

and basically goads the entire table. And if

19:22

you're able to make a copy, which Carter's

19:24

legendary, the copy will immediately die, but you

19:26

will get that trigger again. Or if you

19:29

can blink it back and forth between the

19:31

graveyard a couple of times, just sacrifice it.

19:33

reanimated or put it on a mimic mimic

19:35

bat or something like that you are routinely

19:38

you're continually removing the table's ability to hit

19:40

you successfully yeah but the first time you

19:42

see a car door you may not entirely

19:44

be sure that yes that's definitely what is

19:47

going to happen but it could that potential

19:49

is certainly there and I think that's a

19:51

an especially interesting one for me are those

19:53

cards that like you're not entirely aware like

19:56

are they probably I don't know Maybe could

19:58

they? And like those types of cards are

20:00

especially interesting to me. And having built a

20:03

card door deck and having wrought a lot

20:05

of wrath upon the table as a result

20:07

of it and having subsequently taken that deck

20:09

apart because of the amount of agency it

20:12

ripped away from you Matt. That's another example

20:14

that really sticks out to me in your

20:16

situation of like, oh, these cards that could

20:18

potentially remove player agency almost completely. Cards that

20:21

remove agency is something that we, I know

20:23

we've talked about a lot on this show

20:25

over the course of all of our episodes.

20:27

But it's also probably one of the hardest

20:30

things for players to describe as they're getting

20:32

into the game, because I think Carter is

20:34

a card that you learn a lot, but

20:36

it's hard for you to actually put into

20:38

words what you learn about the game because

20:40

of it. It's hard to describe like, oh,

20:42

I felt like I was forced to do

20:44

things, but I didn't want to do any

20:46

of those things. I wanted to be able

20:48

to do the things that I want to

20:50

do. And it's so wild how cards like

20:52

Carter, they really tip that on its side

20:54

and kind of challenge your regular perception of

20:57

what you're able to do in games because

20:59

it's warping that so severely. Well, and actually

21:01

continuing the idea of people not being able

21:03

to attack very well anymore, kind of going

21:05

in and especially, oh, this can be really

21:08

sneaky, it's not quite as obvious immediately, kind

21:10

of going in that direction. I actually want

21:12

to shout out a few cards that also

21:14

affect combat in that way, but that trick

21:17

you into doing it yourself. And that would

21:19

be the second doctor and cards like Noble

21:21

Heritage. So the second doctor is actually a

21:23

very cool, clever piece of design, form in

21:26

at 2-4, players have no maximum hand size.

21:28

And at the beginning. of your endstep, each

21:30

player may draw a card, but each

21:32

opponent who does can't attack you or

21:34

permanence you control during their next turn.

21:36

And Noble Heritage is similar, but instead

21:38

of giving a card away, you're giving

21:40

plus one counters away. And you'll gain

21:42

protection from that player. These are really

21:44

cool political cards. I like them a

21:46

lot. I've seen them in games a lot.

21:48

But when people take that deal, when they

21:50

say, yeah, I'll draw that extra card. Very,

21:52

very frequently, I see them on their next

21:55

turn. Dang, I wish I hadn't taken

21:57

that dang deal because they have now

21:59

allowed the person. playing the second doctor

22:01

to become a really big issue in

22:03

a way that they cannot meaningfully interact

22:05

with anymore by pressuring that person's life

22:08

total. So these are other cards I'd

22:10

put on that radar as well, but

22:12

in particular they they trick you into

22:14

becoming an accomplice in your own potential

22:16

destruction. So you really got to watch

22:19

out for cards like that. I mean

22:21

there were cards like collective voyage back

22:23

in the day where you got to

22:25

you were given options. You were allowed

22:28

to kind of choose your own fate.

22:30

effectively. Do you mean template discovery? Like if

22:32

you find lands, I'll find more lands and

22:34

then get out of control? Yeah. Yeah. That

22:36

was kind of the beauty of a lot

22:38

of those cards, but it's also kind of

22:40

a shame that we don't get to see

22:42

those very often because I think overall players

22:44

have kind of learned. I shouldn't trust you

22:46

with getting more resources than I do. And

22:48

so yeah, I'm glad that the community has

22:50

kind of wisened up to you almost never

22:52

want to take the deal unless it's... You've

22:54

got very specific ways to answer what's going

22:56

to happen. It's funny to mention that actually,

22:58

because somebody in a potter was playing in

23:01

just this week, cast, temp with vengeance, and

23:03

that's the one that makes the one-one tokens

23:05

with haste. and all three people in the

23:07

pot are really like nope not interested in

23:10

that there's no way that ends well for

23:12

me like everyone has figured out that like

23:14

that is not a that is not

23:16

a deal that never works out in your

23:19

favor I do think that any group

23:21

hug card is worth a lot of scrutiny

23:23

for any group hug player some of

23:25

these things do announce themselves right there from

23:27

the command zone like no that's keneo

23:29

centero I probably need to be a little

23:31

watchful of your gifts come with a

23:33

couple of strings attached to them. But any

23:36

group hug ability, you know, quaint drawing people

23:38

extra cards, salvala, drawing extra cards, every single

23:40

one of those is potentially something that they

23:42

will turn back on you. Maybe they want

23:44

you to have a big board because they're

23:46

going to mob rule you later. Maybe they

23:48

want you to plenty of lands because they'll

23:50

treacherous terrain you or play reins of power

23:52

to steer creatures, a whole bunch of things

23:54

like that. So, you know, whenever anyone is

23:57

offering stuff to everybody, that is worth quite

23:59

a lot of. on your part? I'm struggling

24:01

to come up with an example of

24:03

a card, but there's definitely something I've

24:05

run into before, where I'm playing a

24:07

game against somebody who I know is

24:10

a very good player and a very

24:12

good deck builder, and they play a

24:14

card that doesn't see a lot of

24:16

play. It's like some obscure card, some

24:18

enchantment from stronghold or something, and I

24:20

read the text, and I'm like, this

24:23

doesn't look scary, but it's... but I

24:25

know you have it in your deck

24:27

for a reason and it's going, it's

24:29

in there, that reason is something that's

24:31

going to wildly help you out and

24:33

wildly hurt the rest of us. I

24:36

don't know what it is, but it's

24:38

something. Like when you see that kind

24:40

of card in someone's deck. It's there

24:42

for a reason, you just haven't figured out

24:44

what that reason is yet. Dana, I think

24:47

you pretty much just summed up the way

24:49

that you build decks, because every time that

24:51

we see these cars, like, what the heck

24:53

kind of card is this? I know, right?

24:56

Usually the card ends up killing us in

24:58

some obscure way, anyways. So really, like, you

25:00

just outed yourself in a way. I guess,

25:03

no, you're, you are not wrong. Yeah, it's

25:05

just really a funny way to work

25:07

a compliment on himself in here. Yeah,

25:09

kind of a fun little humble background.

25:11

But no, Dan, I absolutely relate to

25:13

that. Frankly, any hyper obscure card in

25:15

a person's deck that you have to

25:17

be like, wait, I've never seen that

25:19

card before. That definitely is worthy of

25:21

attention for sure. And to kind of

25:24

out onto that point. Whatever you

25:26

see, the more, I guess, obscure

25:28

is still the word, version of

25:30

a popular effect. Like, we all

25:32

know the very famous sacrifice outlets

25:34

that are out there, but when

25:36

someone plays a spawning pit, it's

25:38

a little bit more obscure of

25:40

a sacrifice outlet, and that in

25:42

fact, the sacrifice ability barely even

25:44

matters. It's just a two-man artifice

25:47

creature put a counter on it,

25:49

and you can pay one minute

25:51

and remove two counters to make

25:53

a two-two, which is like, like, Maybe eighth

25:55

in line in terms of like the most

25:57

popular sacrifice outlets compared to the Ferexian altars

26:00

the viscera seers that are out there in

26:02

the world. So if I see someone who's

26:04

playing a spawning pit, then I'm like, cool,

26:06

you've done your homework. I know I need

26:08

to be afraid of you and what you're

26:10

doing because clearly this effect is so important

26:12

to your deck that you have found even

26:14

the eighth in line versions of them. And

26:16

that indicates to me that there's a lot

26:18

of potential problem that could happen as a

26:20

result of that. Joey, as you were talking

26:22

about that, I just grabbed a couple cards

26:24

off my deck or off my desk here.

26:26

I thought spawning pit was in this pile

26:28

because I'm putting in the deck. I've already swelled

26:30

it up. There you go. So it's not

26:32

it's not here to hold up for an example.

26:34

But I just put that in a deck

26:36

and it is being used for nefarious purposes. Yeah,

26:38

absolutely. You are you are completely correct. I

26:40

would say potentially another one is like Kira, great

26:42

glass spinners and other that leaps out to

26:44

me as a potential example of an interesting way

26:46

that maybe not all players know about that

26:48

can give your stuff shroud. And so you're bypassing

26:50

a lot of the other traditional hex proof

26:52

and a lot of other protection effects, you know,

26:55

the lightning greaves and all that to find

26:57

Kira who can negate the first spell that an

26:59

opponent plays. You didn't find that by searching up

27:01

the keyword shroud. You found that by having

27:03

quite a lot of experience and knowing specifically

27:05

that there is something in your deck that

27:07

you need to protect not all costs. So

27:09

if I see that, then I am my

27:11

my red alert goes up. I'm like, cool,

27:13

there's something that I'm going to need to

27:15

be worried about so that Kira needs to

27:17

be solved before the problem arrives. And I

27:19

can't deal with the problem. So yeah, definitely

27:21

cards like that. I love your obscurity point

27:23

there. It is a thing to be very,

27:25

very watchful for. Well, yeah. So with that

27:27

said, I mean, let's talk about some more

27:29

obscure cards ourselves, the ones that we've done

27:31

our work on in Challenger stats. That's a

27:34

good place to do it. Nice ways to

27:36

kind of reveal some some hidden tech we've

27:38

been discovering or trying to point against. What

27:40

do you say? Sounds good to me. Yeah,

27:42

you're right. There's a lot of data on

27:44

EDA track that we don't always agree with.

27:46

We love to find some hidden gems or

27:48

potentially overplayed cards. So let's get into challenge

27:51

the stats. And by the way, challenges this

27:53

week is brought to you by cardsphere.com, a

27:55

great website to bring trading back into your

27:57

trading card game. This episode is brought to

27:59

you by Architect. Architect is our favorite deck building

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website of choice and if you're familiar with

28:03

our Upping the Average series on YouTube you'll

28:05

know I've been a big fan of this

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know you can drag and drop cards from

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either EDA Trek or Scryfall right into Architect

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and it will add those cards to your

28:20

deck for you? Whenever I brew I already

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have a bunch of searches on EDA Trek

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and Scryfall open in other tabs anyway so

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literally just clicking and dragging cards right into

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my deck list saves me so much time

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that way I don't have to type out every single

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dang card name. Not only that but they also

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29:05

So we recently had a challenge for

29:07

the card Nanogen Conversion. I believe it

29:09

was in Captain Negrod decks. Is that

29:11

what you say that Joey? Negathrod. Negathrod.

29:13

Yes. Yeah. We had a listener challenge

29:15

for that card as underplayed and I

29:18

thought it was a great piece of

29:20

tech. It was. The challenge I have

29:22

this week is from a listener wheels

29:24

up and that's for Nanogen Conversion being

29:26

overplayed in the Celestial Toymaker decks and

29:28

I kind of liked the symmetry of

29:30

having a very cool card be overplayed

29:32

in some decks and underplayed in other

29:34

ones. Yeah. OK. The Celestial Toymaker is

29:36

a Doctor Who card. It is three mana

29:39

in Esper covers for two four. Whenever

29:41

the Celestial Toymaker attacks look at the top

29:43

three cards of your library and exile

29:45

any number of them on a face down

29:47

pile and the rest in a face

29:49

up pile. Defending player chooses one of those

29:51

piles and you put that pile into

29:53

your hand. Then at the beginning of each

29:55

end step each opponent loses to life

29:57

or each spell or ability that caused one

29:59

or more. to guess or to group cards

30:01

or permanence into a pile this turn.

30:04

So it's a deck basically built around

30:06

making your opponents like make choices in

30:08

terms of piling up cards. Then you're

30:10

dealing damage to them for making those

30:13

choices. Like you're dealing damage to them

30:15

for making those choices. Like factor fiction

30:17

effects and stuff like that? Yeah, just

30:19

like that Joey. Navaging conversion for those

30:22

that are forgotten. Sourcery for three and

30:24

a blue, choose target creature you control.

30:26

Each target creature you control. Each. First

30:28

things first, I've actually seen this

30:30

card be misused a couple different

30:32

times. People sometimes miss that it

30:34

says each other creature, and they

30:36

read it as each other creature

30:38

you control. So that can cause

30:40

problems. Again what, this is something

30:42

that turns all creatures into play.

30:44

Into copies of that creature till

30:46

end of turn and that's a

30:48

much much different thing And it's

30:50

a much different thing in the

30:53

celestial toy maker deck because of

30:55

the way you stack triggers So

30:57

if you were forcing someone to

30:59

do some searching and you've cast

31:01

nanogene conversion and turned everything into

31:03

celestial toy makers you are the

31:06

opponent of the person who has

31:08

made their creatures into celestial toy

31:11

makers. And because of the way

31:13

triggers get stacked, you can wind

31:15

up taking the damage before they

31:18

take damage. And in the case

31:20

of the wheels I've mentioned, when

31:22

they cast the card, it created

31:25

a situation where they died before

31:27

anyone else because of the celestial

31:29

toy makers they functionally gave to everyone

31:31

else. This is wild. I definitely, this

31:33

is an interesting read on both the

31:36

nano gene and also on the toy

31:38

maker because yeah, I'm reading this second

31:40

paragraph very carefully. Beginning of each end

31:42

step, each opponent loses two life for

31:44

each speller ability that caused one or

31:46

more players. So like it could be

31:48

your own stuff, but it's not just

31:50

since you did it, only opponents are

31:53

affected by it. So if you just

31:55

gave an opponent a bunch of saplings,

31:57

a whole bunch of celestial to toy makers

31:59

and you. that is easy to miss

32:01

and very very cool actually I

32:03

love this challenge wheels up and

32:05

it's in almost 30% of celestial

32:07

toy maker decks whoa and I'm

32:09

sure there's situations where like you

32:11

can you know set everything up

32:13

so it does work to your

32:15

advantage but I feel like it's really

32:18

easy to not do that. So

32:20

I think this is an excellent

32:22

challenge and definitely a card I

32:24

think that can backfire in a

32:26

bunch of ways, including the original

32:28

way I mention where like people

32:30

just misread how it works. Yeah,

32:32

very, very cool. I love that

32:34

overplayed challenge. And I will use

32:37

that as a segue to my

32:39

overplayed challenge for this week's challenge

32:41

of stats. I want to talk

32:43

about Valgavath, hero hero of souls.

32:45

award pay to life, and whenever an

32:47

opponent loses life for the first time during

32:49

each of their turns, you put a plus

32:52

one counter on vagaboth and you draw a

32:54

card. This is a very super popular commander

32:56

from the Dusk Point set, already over 9,000

32:58

decks and hasn't been out all that long.

33:00

It's a great commander, it's very punishing. Ractos

33:02

Punisher is very much the vibe for this.

33:04

So a lot of really neat effects, you

33:07

know, sulfuric vortex kind of cards that will

33:09

allow your opponents to lose life on their

33:11

turn so that you can buff up your

33:13

commander and draw some more cards. But there

33:15

is a card that's showing up on this

33:17

commander's page with the new foundations cards that

33:20

are coming out. This one is showing up

33:22

in half of the, over half of the

33:24

newly built Vagavat decks out there. It's perforating

33:26

artist, just an uncommon from foundations, that doesn't

33:28

actually work with Vagavath in the way that

33:30

we want it to work with Vagavath. Perforating

33:32

artist is a three man a three two

33:35

devil and Rachdos it has death touch and

33:37

raid at the beginning of your end step

33:39

if you attacked this turn Each opponent loses

33:41

three life unless they sacrifice an online permanent

33:43

of their choice or they discard a card

33:45

That is indeed Rachdos punishing, but it's not

33:47

particularly good for Valghav who needs your opponents to

33:50

lose those life points on their own turn and

33:52

this deck is flushed with so many possible options

33:54

to make your opponents lose life lose life on

33:56

their turns not on your turn that I do

33:58

not think that you you need to take up

34:01

a slot with the perforating artist here. It's neat,

34:03

it's a shiny new toy from Foundations, so it

34:05

makes sense why people would see it, connect the

34:07

threads of Ractos Punisher card into a Ractos Punisher

34:09

deck. There is definitely some symmetry going on there,

34:11

but there is not synergy going on here. So

34:13

if you have just gotten some Foundations cards and

34:15

you saw this one and considered it for your

34:17

Valgavot deck, I would actually say that you can

34:19

remove that card slot and you can find other

34:21

cards here that will trigger Valgavot that will make

34:23

you a lot happier and your opponent's a lot

34:25

more miserable instead. So let me get us wrapped

34:27

up then with a challenge that I think it

34:29

was really easy for folks to miss. It

34:31

was just kind of a common in Bloomboro

34:33

that maybe just people kind of glanced over,

34:35

but it is starting to get played in

34:37

a little bit more decks. So the card

34:40

I'm looking at is Dire Sight, which is

34:42

two and a black for a sorcery that

34:44

says surveil two, then draw two cards and

34:46

you lose two life. So this is very,

34:48

very similar to a card that we all

34:50

know and accept as read the bones. It's played

34:52

in a ton of decks. It's showed up in

34:54

pre -cons. It's been all over the place for

34:56

a long, long time. So

34:58

I'm looking at some lists that I think

35:00

you just want to have Dire Sight in

35:02

there instead of read the bones because read

35:04

the bones is just the same thing as

35:06

Dire Sight, but you scry to instead of

35:09

surveil to then you draw the cards, lose

35:11

a life. A Dana Roach special type of

35:13

card. And a deck that I'm seeing a

35:15

just a very, very obvious upgrade is Siddharja

35:17

Bari of Zelfir. And it's the number 38

35:19

most built deck in the past two years.

35:21

It's that Esper Knights commander but has a

35:23

really important ability where when Siddharja Bari deals

35:25

combat damage to a player you return target

35:27

night creature card from your graveyard to the

35:29

battlefield. And if you look at the

35:31

typical deck there's a lot of reanimator synergies

35:33

in there. There's ways to fill the

35:36

graveyard. They're playing cards like buried alive and

35:38

then reanimate to bring them out of

35:40

the graveyard. This is just such a fantastic

35:42

upgrade from read the bones, scrying and

35:44

putting those cards you look at on the

35:46

bottom of your library. Dire Sight's able

35:48

to fill the graveyard for you. This seems

35:50

like such an easy and obvious upgrade.

35:52

31 % of decks are currently playing read

35:54

the bones for Siddharja Bari. I think that

35:56

number should just be 31 plus percent because

35:58

of just the synergy that is

36:00

built in with dire sight. So if you need

36:03

an amazing 15 cent option to upgrade, just look

36:05

at dire sight. This is such a powerful card,

36:07

such an important interaction, and I like that this

36:09

is a kind of a knob they talk about

36:11

on design space where you can kind of play

36:14

around with what does this card do, how does

36:16

it interact, and surveil versus scry is a very

36:18

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36:22

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36:25

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build with card sphere. Cool stuff you guys

36:53

and now we're going to get back into

36:55

our main topic here and for the second

36:57

half of the show while we're talking about

37:00

cards that are up to no good

37:02

I think there's been something like a

37:04

large shadow looming over the conversation that

37:06

we we do need to address this

37:09

elephant in the room we've mentioned some

37:11

cards that could be indicative of some

37:13

powerful plays but we haven't mentioned like

37:15

combo pieces. Some cards that maybe folks

37:17

aren't always quite as aware that they

37:19

could lead to some infinite situations. We

37:21

like hinted at this at the very

37:23

top of the show with cards like

37:25

illusionists bracers, which can often be a

37:27

part of a combo and that might

37:30

be the reason why people are playing

37:32

it. But I think we should get

37:34

into some other examples of cards like

37:36

that too. When you see that card

37:38

on the field, there is potentially an

37:40

infinite amount of danger in your future.

37:42

So guys, where should we start on

37:44

that? I think the easiest one to

37:46

start with is is maybe one of

37:49

the most well-known combos in the format

37:51

and that's the sanguine bond exquisite blood

37:53

combo. Sanguine bond is an enchantment for

37:56

five mana, three and double black. Whatever

37:58

you gain, life, target opponent. loses that

38:00

much life and exquisite blood is also if

38:02

I've been enchantment but it's four and single

38:04

black whenever an opponent loses life you gain

38:06

that much life so with both of those

38:08

in play whenever a life trigger happens it

38:10

just loops right yeah everyone your opponents will

38:13

lose all of their life and you gain

38:15

all of the life game just ends you

38:17

have to have a way I guess to

38:19

trigger that life gain to start the whole

38:21

thing in the first place but there's just

38:23

so many ways to to trigger either the

38:25

life loss for the life game to start

38:27

the loop happening it's just a really easy

38:30

combo and one of the advantages this this

38:32

combo has as well that it isn't

38:34

always something you see is both halves of

38:36

this combo are really good on their

38:38

own right like that that's sometimes you're in

38:40

a situation when a two -card combo where

38:42

the cards are kind of dead or

38:44

at least one half of them is so

38:46

like they're not doing a lot till

38:48

you have the combo assembled both these cards

38:50

even if something happens where you don't

38:52

have both of them out are just really

38:54

good on their own yeah an exquisite

38:56

blood that is just sitting around gaining you

38:58

life whenever opponents lose life well I'm

39:00

not gonna attack player B if player C

39:02

gains life off of that that means

39:04

that my attack didn't I'm just funneling life

39:06

in a different direction rather than reducing

39:08

the amount I have to chew through to

39:10

end this game but yeah as you're

39:12

pointing out there even an honest sanguine bond

39:14

that isn't trying to do the infinite

39:16

combo is still a problem because of the

39:18

number of things in this format that

39:20

can double a person's life total so it's

39:22

like all right cool here's a beacon

39:24

of immortality I'll double my life total and

39:26

now I'll chunk somebody for probably 40

39:28

plus damage well that may not be an infinite

39:30

combo but I would still die so I

39:32

need to be worried as soon as that's

39:34

there so even honest versions of these effects

39:36

can be a little bit like oh yeah

39:38

honest versions I had an experience similar to

39:41

this I tried to play an honest Ashnaud's

39:43

altar and that never went well nobody trusted

39:45

me even when it was in my Victus

39:47

as Madi deck where I wanted to steal

39:49

people stuff and then just use it as

39:51

permanent removal that's all I wanted to do

39:53

that was not what people thought I was

39:55

gonna do and so it just it almost

39:57

became I was drawing too much attention to

39:59

what I was trying to do and there's

40:01

no point in even trying to play

40:04

some of these cards honestly because Ashnaw's

40:06

altar is in 378,000 decks. It is

40:08

everywhere and on top of that it

40:10

is one of the most used pieces

40:13

in infinite combos in the

40:15

format. There's just so many accidental

40:17

ways to combo off with Ashnaw's

40:19

altar. For me, there just was

40:21

no reason to try to play

40:23

this honestly because nobody ever believed

40:26

me when I tried. I think

40:28

it's worth noting that Matt's version

40:30

of playing this card fairly is

40:32

taking your stuff, sacrificing it so

40:34

you don't get it back, and

40:37

then making Maniford himself. That's the

40:39

fair version of this. Which admittedly

40:41

is pretty great. It's something that

40:43

valid strategy, but you are correct Dana,

40:45

yes. That's the quote, fair way to

40:47

play it. And that's still not even

40:49

fair. So one thing you can do,

40:51

go to Commander Spellbook and just plug

40:54

in Ashnod's altar, you can see what

40:56

I'm talking about. There are so many

40:58

ways to just oops into so many

41:00

different ways to win games, just out

41:02

of the blue. Yeah, Commander Spellbook has

41:04

a really cool repository of information that

41:06

the community has assembled about possible infinite

41:08

combos. And they walk you through like

41:10

what the combo is, which pieces are

41:12

there. They have a really cool feature

41:14

where you can plug your deck list

41:16

in there and they will show you

41:19

any combos that happen to exist if

41:21

there's specifically something that you want to

41:23

find to remove from your deck or

41:25

that you want to highlight in your

41:27

deck. That's a very cool feature. And

41:29

indeed there are some cards like this.

41:31

as another, like one of the most

41:33

popular, like if you see a retreat

41:35

to Coleham, which can landfall, untap something,

41:38

that could also be abused in quite

41:40

a lot of ways for specifically some

41:42

combos that, you know, a creature can

41:44

tap and then put a land from

41:46

your hand from your hand onto the,

41:48

and then put a land from your

41:50

hand onto the battlefield. Well, potentially, the

41:53

land you put there is some type

41:55

of simic growth chamber, and there are

41:57

a lot of landfall cards that will

41:59

be. extremely happy about infinitely handful

42:01

triggers. So even though a Retreat to Coal

42:03

or Helm might just look like a simple

42:05

value engine, you can use things like Commander

42:07

Spellbook to see, hmm, should I be worried

42:09

about this? Ah, I see the answer is

42:11

yes, because of the number of results that

42:13

have come up when I typed it into

42:15

the search engine. Well, one thing that I've

42:17

sneakily started doing is whenever a friend of

42:19

mine builds a new deck, I'll plug that

42:21

into Commander Spellbook's feature where you just enter

42:23

a URL and it's gonna search up everything.

42:26

I'll use that to kind of scout out

42:28

my friend's decks and see what problem cards

42:30

could be. And that's just such a, I know

42:32

that's maybe next leveling it and getting a

42:34

little petty honestly, but one more mana crew was

42:36

on the show recently, so I feel like

42:38

we have a little bit of petty leftover to

42:40

do. But oh my gosh, it's so helpful

42:42

just to kind of identify what is this deck

42:44

trying to do? Even if there's not explicit

42:46

combos in there, I can still kind of see,

42:49

oh man, they have XYZ cards and those

42:51

cards do kind of suck to play against. You

42:53

play games against Dana and I, Matt. I

42:55

think it's very fair for you to research our

42:57

decks to see what it is we're up

42:59

to. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well you can look it

43:01

up Matt like what creatures do they want

43:03

to steal from their decks to then sacrifice to

43:05

my Ash Nautilus? Thankfully

43:09

for my sake I took Ash Naut's Altar

43:12

out of the deck because it just wasn't

43:14

worth the hassle and all the attention. Dana,

43:16

you do a really good job in your

43:18

decks of you avoid attention until you are

43:20

okay and you know you can handle it.

43:22

My decks never are built to handle the

43:24

attention from Ash Naut's Altar. So just it

43:26

wasn't worth me playing anymore Because sure people

43:28

know that card the community is so smart

43:30

these days You can't sneak an astronaut's alter

43:33

into play and be like, okay past

43:35

my turn because gonna trust

43:37

you Right. Well, and Matt,

43:39

let's be clear There are some

43:41

cards that you play that I

43:43

think also should give Dana and

43:45

I pause absolutely because of their

43:47

also potential The combo potential that

43:49

they could represent in a game

43:51

as well Like whenever you play

43:53

a devoted druid I get a little

43:55

bit zero good intentions zero Right,

43:58

it's a two -man a mandador It

44:00

says an O2 can tap for a green,

44:02

but you can put a minus one counter on

44:04

it to untap it, which means you could

44:06

get a little boost of bonus mana. But if

44:08

you have certain cards out there, like a

44:10

Swift Reconfiguration to remove it from creature status, then

44:12

you can just keep piling minus one counters

44:14

onto it. And it doesn't care, it's not gonna

44:16

die, it's not a creature anymore. The Swift

44:18

Reconfiguration turned it into a vehicle. So you can

44:20

just get infinite mana, or if you're playing

44:22

a Vazir of Remedies so that the minus one

44:24

counters won't have an effect either. You can

44:26

take that activated ability, but Vazir of Remedies will

44:28

reduce the minus one counter from happening at all,

44:30

and you can just untap it for free.

44:32

Those are also things that I know to be

44:34

a little bit afraid of in an occasional

44:36

deck that you have played as well. So Dan

44:38

and I have done some gnarly stuff, but

44:40

occasionally even your honest mana dorks are not so

44:42

honest. No, I tried for about 20 minutes

44:44

before I took it out. I tried putting into

44:46

a plus one, plus one counters deck just

44:48

because the synergy you put a minus one, minus

44:51

one counter on it, which just takes a

44:53

plus one, plus one counter on it. So I

44:55

just use it as a high power mana

44:57

dork. That even then in an honest deck where

44:59

I wasn't comboing out, still got so

45:01

much attention because it still was

45:03

very powerful, even just taking out

45:05

all the combo potential there. Yeah,

45:07

I had the same exact situation

45:09

with the crystalline crawler, and what

45:11

is that trilobite from the Icoria

45:13

pre -cons as well that you

45:15

can remove counters for mana? Yeah,

45:17

there's, if you see one of

45:19

those run, there's gonna be an

45:21

issue. What's maybe even a bigger

45:24

red flag than a combo where

45:26

both haves are really, really good

45:28

is a situation where the haves

45:30

aren't good necessarily. Basil

45:32

Monolith, in terms of like

45:34

how many good mana rocks

45:36

are out there is way

45:38

down on the list, except

45:40

for it allows you to run infinite

45:43

mana combos in a way that you can't

45:45

with like say a talisman or something. When

45:47

you see a card that's a much,

45:49

much worse version of say a mana rock

45:51

or something along those lines, the person

45:53

didn't make a mistake, right? They didn't like

45:55

put that in their deck instead of

45:57

an arcane signet because I didn't know any.

46:00

better. They put it in there because

46:02

they're intending to do something with

46:04

it that makes up for the fact

46:06

that on its own it's not

46:08

as good as Arcane Signet or a

46:10

Signet or a Talisman or whatever.

46:12

Yeah. Basalt Monolith, three mana artifact, doesn't

46:14

untap during your untap step, but

46:16

it does tap for three colorless mana

46:18

and you can pay three mana

46:20

to untap Basalt Monolith. So an easy

46:22

thing to do here is any

46:24

ability that reduces the activated ability costs

46:26

that you pay. Well, now if

46:28

you're only paying two mana to untap

46:30

it and it taps for three, you

46:32

can feed that mana into itself and

46:34

you will net gain one every activation.

46:36

Infinite mana is approached there, but also

46:38

people will sometimes just use this with

46:41

a mesmeric orb, where whenever something becomes

46:43

untapped you'll mill a card. Well, I'll

46:45

just repeatedly use the Basalt Monolith on

46:47

itself and now, oh, fun. My entire

46:49

library is in my graveyard. It's a

46:51

little bit of a build your own

46:53

hermit druid. Another card, by the way,

46:56

that is up to no dang good.

46:58

If someone's mass filling their graveyard, watch out.

47:00

So, yeah, Dana, these are definitely other

47:02

types of cards to be very keenly

47:04

aware of on the field because even

47:06

if Basalt Monolith just gave a quick

47:08

boost of mana now and it seems

47:10

useless, it seems like it's used up,

47:12

it's tapped out. Well, it won't be.

47:14

Right. It won't be. There's something going

47:16

to happen probably later. Aggurated Assault is

47:18

another one that jumps to mind. It's

47:20

two in a red in enchantment and

47:22

has an activated ability for three and

47:24

a double red and you untap all

47:26

creatures you control and after this phase,

47:28

there's an additional combat phase followed by an

47:30

extra main phase. The red flag situation

47:32

there, is that like that's relatively expensive

47:35

for one activation? If you plagued Aggurated

47:37

Assault, presumably, you know, on the turn

47:39

that you're going to use it because

47:41

you ideally don't want to have it

47:43

sit there as a target, that's eight

47:45

mana. And then, like, for an extra

47:47

combat step, you can do that much

47:50

cheaper with a one off effect, where

47:52

one less assault is two and two

47:54

red, you know, half the price. So,

47:57

if someone's running Aggurated Assault,

47:59

more off the not, the reason they've

48:01

chosen that more expensive version of

48:03

that effect is because they're not

48:05

just going to use it one

48:08

time like with relentless assault, they

48:10

have some method, some way to

48:12

generate mana usually on an attack

48:14

trigger to basically infinitely use aggravated

48:16

assault. Right. Savage Ventma attacks, gives

48:18

you six mana on that attack.

48:20

Oh look, another free combat. Right.

48:23

So then Savage Ventma attacks, gives

48:25

you six mana, yada. I feel

48:27

like, uh, aggravated assault. a card

48:29

that you've probably had a handful of experiences

48:31

with. It seems like a card that might

48:33

be near and dear to you. Yes. But

48:35

just know we're afraid. Yeah, I cast it

48:37

a few times, but there's also cards that

48:39

build into that like Drew's repository. That's a

48:41

card that goes hand in hand because whenever

48:43

a creature attacks. you get manna and well

48:46

a way to get man I should say

48:48

and so yeah that just kind of compounds

48:50

and there's a lot of different cars I

48:52

feel like we're just summing up the nagila

48:54

CEDH deck where you just find ways to

48:56

have infinite combo or infinite attack steps and

48:58

yeah absolutely it's super easy with so many

49:00

different cards these days just because the card

49:02

pool is getting bigger and bigger so it's

49:04

just hard or easy because we have a

49:06

bunch of tools now like commander spellbook that

49:09

help keep track of all these things that

49:11

you can do with just wildly powerful cards.

49:13

Actually, speaking of some stuff

49:15

that you play, you've also recently

49:17

built an MEL deck, and I

49:20

feel like MEL is another commander

49:22

that kind of oopses into infinite

49:24

here and there, almost in the

49:26

way that like a lot of

49:28

nivmizets can just oops into infinite's,

49:30

can there, almost in the way

49:33

that like a lot of nivmizets

49:35

can just oops into infinite as

49:37

can just oops, MEL being repeatedly

49:39

to blink them. The entire category

49:41

of blink decks feels like it

49:44

could almost at any moment accidentally fall into an

49:46

infinite combo with Velodar Guardian and those angels that

49:48

are just like immediately blinking each other as soon

49:50

as they hit the field. Is that something you've

49:53

had to fight to avoid or is it something

49:55

you've leaned into? I usually just leaned into all

49:57

those types of things, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that

49:59

sounds... but right just accept it like accept

50:01

what you're trying to do I need to

50:04

be honest with yourself and be honest with

50:06

the other people that you're sitting at a

50:08

pot with and so if you kind of

50:10

like deflect that a little bit to me

50:13

that seems disingenuous just accept what you're trying

50:15

to do and and like I said we

50:17

joke all the time like Joey your necromance

50:19

for yourself we can't Joey has to die

50:21

first as we like to say when we

50:24

play games together just embrace and kind of

50:26

wear it as like a badge of honor

50:28

almost Yeah, sure. But yeah, that is a

50:30

thing to be aware of. I think not

50:32

just for playing against these decks, but when

50:35

you are playing them yourself. If you put

50:37

a Felidar Guardian and a Restoration Angel into

50:39

the same deck, which makes sense, they're great

50:41

things to blink and get you extra value

50:44

off of an ETB effect, you know, double

50:46

up an effect like that, but if you

50:48

get those in play with a panharmonicon or

50:50

just with each other, and then they're repeatedly

50:52

blinking each other immediately blinking until the onset,

50:55

they just come right back. They just come

50:57

right back. potentially what you've done there is

50:59

create a loop that even you yourself may

51:01

not have noticed. So that is a thing

51:03

to be aware of was sometimes just entire

51:06

swathes of strategies can be very susceptible to

51:08

the combo tasticness. I have absolutely built. combos

51:10

into decks that I didn't mean to do.

51:12

I joked for a long time when I

51:15

built my omnath locus of rage deck. I

51:17

had amule to vigor because it's very good

51:19

and I was playing a lot of tapped

51:21

lands. Well, I had perilous forays as well,

51:23

which is just a way to stack all

51:26

the elementals, get the death trigger, but then

51:28

also get lands out of my library. But

51:30

I didn't realize that playing them together, kind

51:32

of was newer to the format. Having something

51:34

like Commander Spellbook is a fantastic way to

51:37

just, what did I miss? What synergies did

51:39

I not intend on putting in there? So

51:41

absolutely there's a bunch of ways you can

51:43

just kind of proof yourself and do some

51:46

editorializing with your decks. And frankly Matt, sometimes

51:48

not even just an infinite combo, but just

51:50

a synergy that may not perhaps be completely

51:52

infinite, but is still like, it's enough for

51:54

it just needs to go enough to like

51:57

for the game to end. And this is

51:59

an experience I've had with a mind crank.

52:01

in a couple of texts that I've built

52:03

here and there. Mindcrink is a two-manner artifact

52:06

of Never an opponent loses life. They mill

52:08

that many cards. I think this one's easy

52:10

to at first blush assume. All right, this

52:12

is just great to help mill some opponents.

52:14

I'll get some extra stuff into their graveyard

52:17

that maybe my particular deck can pilfer from

52:19

them. This is very popular in Captain Negathrod

52:21

decks, for instance, because the more that you

52:23

mill them, the more that you mill them,

52:25

the more potentially stuff, you could pirate from

52:28

their graveyard decks. Because the more that you

52:30

mill them, the more potentially stuff you'll mill

52:32

them, you could mill them, and then I'll

52:34

mill them. me play a mind crank. Or

52:37

frankly, if you see anyone play a mind

52:39

crank. Beware, there are infinite combos with it

52:41

for sure, with like blood chief attention and

52:43

stuff like that, desk mental gildenage as well.

52:46

But even if it's not going infinite, I'm

52:48

still a problem. I mean, sorry, it is

52:50

still a problem. Dana, I don't know about

52:52

you, but Joey just kind of summed up

52:55

a lot of his deck building acumen and

52:57

strategies is, it doesn't need to go infinite,

52:59

it just needs to go enough. Yeah, right.

53:01

Well, I think that actually, actually kind

53:03

of a good lesson to take away

53:05

from this like entire episode is

53:07

to look at the board state and

53:10

think about the things that you're not

53:12

necessarily seeing as part of the board

53:14

state. Yeah. When you see that Alarin,

53:16

you need to like think beyond what

53:18

the words on the Alarin. says and

53:20

what the impact of that is probably

53:22

going to be, your deck compared to

53:24

the person who cast it, right? Like,

53:26

there's a lot more going on there

53:28

than just what the card says, because

53:31

like we talked about earlier, the person

53:33

who cast it is probably going to

53:35

just play. all of their creatures versus

53:37

a few of yours. When someone plays that

53:39

mind crank, there's probably a lot going on

53:41

that you don't see. And I think the

53:44

lesson to take away here is like when

53:46

you're playing commander, look for the information that

53:48

isn't visible to you. The stuff in between

53:50

the cards makes a really big difference and

53:52

learning to like recognize that is a kind

53:55

of a level up moment, I think, for

53:57

a lot of people. Yeah, thinking in terms

53:59

of of what's the worst case scenario with

54:01

this card is definitely a valid strategy and

54:04

thought process. And maybe you want to give

54:06

them the best benefit of the doubt that

54:08

you can. So maybe not expecting it, but

54:11

knowing to play around it is a good

54:13

way to approach that too, where, okay, like

54:15

I know this, that Peregrindrake. that's a pretty

54:17

powerful card. What could you be doing with

54:20

that? And then keeping in mind, okay, well

54:22

that untaps a lot of lands, if they

54:24

have a way to flicker that, then we

54:26

just need to take them out or get

54:29

rid of the paragon Drake, whatever that looks

54:31

like. Yeah, for sure. And frankly, there are

54:33

so many possible combo pieces out there. It

54:36

would be impossible for us to be comprehensive.

54:38

truly so many of them out there. So

54:40

there are a lot of things to be

54:42

watchful for. And Dana, I love your point

54:45

there. Basically about observing a card's potential energy

54:47

versus just its kinetic energy. And that's how

54:49

we evaluate any threat any threat. And that's

54:52

how we evaluate any threat. We look at

54:54

a card that is sort of the engine.

54:56

It's giving them a little bit of extra

54:58

manor or it's giving them a little bit

55:01

of extra card advantage. Those tend to be

55:03

the kinds of things that we want to

55:05

be. kind of the similar deal. We are

55:07

evaluating that like, oh, this is going to

55:10

become a problem over the course of time.

55:12

So yeah, observing that potential energy is certainly

55:14

a thing that we can apply as a

55:17

way of leveling up our threat assessment and

55:19

making sure that we don't get got by

55:21

any of these cards. Yeah, well said, so

55:23

I'm glad that we took this opportunity to

55:26

kind of talk about cards, especially with Magic

55:28

on Chicago coming up. Anytime that we're going

55:30

to play a lot of games in a

55:33

short time span, definitely good to just have

55:35

a refresher on. Okay, what cards do we

55:37

need to keep an eye out for? Yeah,

55:39

just always nice to have that reminder. Yeah,

55:42

definitely a good takeaway. This has been a

55:44

really fun episode. Matt, I love that you

55:46

brought this topic up, and I especially want

55:49

to hear from our listeners about which cards

55:51

they encounter out there that they definitely want

55:53

to make sure that everyone is keeping an

55:55

eye on. So let us know in the

55:58

comments, get a hold of us with that.

56:00

we're going to call this episode to a

56:02

close. So fellas, if a listener's want to

56:04

tell us about some other cards that they

56:07

think are up to no good, where can

56:09

they find us being up to no good?

56:11

Matt? I mean, I'm always up to some

56:14

good at least over pretty much any social

56:16

media platform, Blue Sky, especially lately, at Mathimus

56:18

55, that's MATH, IMUS 55. And don't forget

56:20

if you're going to see us at Magic

56:23

on Chicago, we're going to be rep and

56:25

Dragon Dragon Dragon Shield. We're going to the

56:27

best. Yeah, just sleeves check it all out

56:30

over at Dragon Shield. Click on the link

56:32

in the description below if you want to

56:34

check out their stuff. And Dana, how about

56:36

you? You can find me online at Dana

56:38

Roach. I'm running articles for Radio Tracking Commanders

56:40

Herald, and you can find all three of

56:42

us collectively at patron.com/media trackcast. And I'm Joey

56:44

Shultz, you can find me everywhere online from

56:47

Instagram to Blue Sky at Joseph M. Shultz,

56:49

and you can find the cast online at

56:51

EDH Recast. Plus, if you've got a question

56:53

for us, perhaps a challenge of stats submission

56:55

that you'd like to get in touch with

56:57

us about. You can contact us at EDH

56:59

Recast@gmail.com. Listeners will be back at you next week

57:02

with more data and insights, but until then remember,

57:04

EDEDH Rec Your Deck before you rec your rec

57:06

your rec your deck.