0:00

This message comes from ICF. Working

0:02

with government and industry to

0:04

power energy innovation, advance health outcomes,

0:06

and leverage technology and AI for

0:09

mission success. Let's build a

0:11

more resilient world. Start at icf.com.

0:13

Hey again, I'm Kelly McEvers, and

0:16

you are listening to the third

0:18

and final episode in Embedids Alternate

0:20

Reality Series. If you haven't

0:22

listened to the first two, go

0:25

back to your feed. All the

0:27

episodes are there. Okay. Back

0:29

to the story. Here's episode three.

0:32

All right. Okay, here we go.

0:34

Oh, I should go get my

0:36

list, right? Yeah, go get your

0:38

list. All right. After almost a

0:40

year of waiting, the day had

0:42

finally arrived. It was time to

0:45

close out the bet on dad's

0:47

10 predictions with $10,000 on the

0:49

line. I mean, I have everything,

0:51

but you can go get your

0:53

list. So I can look at

0:56

it and see if there's anything

0:58

I can. Pretend happened. Well, at

1:00

least so far we're sharing a

1:02

reality. Dad and I sat across

1:04

from each other at the same

1:06

table we shared countless family dinners

1:09

growing up. He pulled out his

1:11

handwritten list and I had my

1:13

laptop open to a doc full

1:15

of questions and fact checks. I'm

1:17

just gonna go through the list

1:20

for your 10 predictions for the

1:22

year. We'll start with the easy

1:24

ones. There's four that can easily

1:26

be grouped together, and that is.

1:28

Barack Obama will be convicted of

1:30

treason, Joe Biden will be convicted

1:33

of treason, Nancy Pelosi convicted of

1:35

treason, the Clinton's convicted of treason

1:37

and murder. I would group them

1:39

categorically. I ran through the list,

1:41

no convictions, no charges, not even

1:44

any investigations, literally no momentum of

1:46

any kind. Yes, I've fully hoped

1:48

that would take place and before

1:50

the end of 2024, but that

1:52

has not taken place. If you're

1:54

keeping score at home, that's four

1:57

for me. All right, next one.

1:59

You said Trump will be reinstated

2:01

without an election. Trump won real.

2:03

election. He was not reinstated without

2:05

an election. That's five. Trump will

2:08

have all charges dropped. On May

2:10

30th, 2024, Trump was found guilty

2:12

and convicted on 34 felony charges

2:14

in a New York hush money

2:16

trial. Yeah. That makes six. Moving

2:18

on, next one. Governor Hocal, the

2:21

governor of New York, would be

2:23

removed from office. Governor Hocal is

2:25

currently in office with no

2:27

charges being brought against her. She

2:30

will be up for re-election in

2:32

2026. That is correct. Seven. On

2:34

to the home stretch, Biden will

2:36

be removed from office, which, you

2:39

know, at the time of the

2:41

recording, he was still president. Biden's

2:43

still in the White House. You're

2:46

not rebutting that. Yeah, well, because

2:48

somebody pretending to be the Biden

2:50

is in the White House. Okay.

2:53

And we're back to body doubles.

2:55

But even still, he conceded the

2:57

point. So that's eight. Okay, then

3:00

there's one prediction dad was close

3:02

on because Eric Adams, the mayor

3:05

of New York, could be removed.

3:07

Just not in time. As it

3:09

stands right now, he's still the

3:11

mayor. Right. Tough break, but that

3:13

makes nine. Okay, last one.

3:15

Our country would come under

3:18

martial law. As far as I

3:20

know, that didn't happen. That

3:22

did not happen. Okay, no,

3:24

any rebuttals there. I'm very

3:26

happy that that didn't happen.

3:28

And that's 10. So it was

3:30

clear, I was the winner. The

3:32

whole deal was for you

3:34

to convince me that you're

3:37

right. But you're O for 10,

3:39

so... Right. I'm O for 10. So

3:41

it can only go up from

3:43

here. That's one way to put

3:45

it. At long last, it

3:47

was finally time to hear

3:49

dad say the magic words we

3:52

agreed to a year ago. I

3:54

want to have you say after

3:56

each one of these. is that

3:58

while dead. You were right,

4:01

and I was wrong. Same

4:03

goes for you then. And

4:05

do you want me to

4:07

say that ten times? I

4:09

don't need you to say

4:11

a ten times. Just give

4:13

me one good take. Okay,

4:15

all right. So I'm going

4:17

to say to you sincerely

4:19

and honestly and heartfelt that,

4:21

wow, Zach, I was wrong.

4:23

And you were correct. Thank

4:25

you. I wish I could

4:27

tell you that dad changed

4:29

his mind, that the family

4:31

was able to heal. However.

4:33

However. Are you really prefacing

4:35

that? Yes, because however, just

4:37

because this has not happened

4:39

in 2024, doesn't make any

4:41

of these less valid or

4:43

less real. I guarantee you,

4:45

you will see by the

4:47

end of 2025, that all

4:49

10 of these have legs,

4:51

and I still am 100%

4:53

positive with all these, are

4:55

true. So

4:58

your explanation for why these things

5:00

did not yet come to pass

5:03

is that you just got the

5:05

timeline wrong? Yes. Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly,

5:07

dad turned to the failed prophecy

5:10

playbook. He blamed it on the

5:12

timeline. We were right back where

5:14

we started. You still believe what

5:17

you believe, and I still believe

5:19

that that's false. Correct. Dad's not

5:21

changing. It's not the outcome I

5:24

was hoping for, but here we

5:26

are. So, now what? What happens

5:28

to Kira? What happens to mom?

5:31

And where does that leave me?

5:33

The bet was over, but we

5:36

still needed to assess the damage,

5:38

and see if dad was willing

5:40

to take any steps towards repair.

5:43

From MPRs embedded, I'm Zach Mac,

5:45

and this is the final episode

5:47

of alternate realities. How you invest

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7:51

let's back up a second, because

7:53

just days before I sat down

7:55

with dad to settle the bet,

7:57

things with the family had hit

7:59

an all-time low. Right before... flying

8:01

home for Christmas, I had arranged

8:03

a call with my mom and

8:05

sister. I was hoping they could

8:07

come up with something I could

8:09

convey to dad in our final

8:11

conversation. Concrete steps he could take

8:13

to show he was trying. But

8:15

minutes before our call, my sister

8:17

sent a text. She gave me

8:19

permission to read this, by the

8:21

way. Last night, I realized to

8:23

a new degree, how angry and

8:25

hurt I am, and I'm not

8:27

in the space to participate. I

8:30

made my ass two years ago

8:32

for him to accept me and

8:34

love me and he has seemed

8:36

very disinterested in doing so. Please

8:38

continue today without me. Kira was

8:40

out. Still, mom suggested we check

8:42

in. Turns out she had a

8:44

pretty big update of her own.

8:46

Hi. Hey, how are you? What...

8:48

Going on in the last 12

8:50

hours? She began to fill me

8:52

in. The night before, she and

8:54

dad were talking about his beliefs

8:56

around kira and conspiracies and religion

8:58

and if he was open to

9:00

reconsidering. He's not going to change

9:02

his religious viewpoints. He's not going

9:04

to change. And then I just

9:06

said it. Then I just don't

9:08

see I don't see a path

9:10

where this marriage can continue. I

9:12

don't see a path for me.

9:14

And what did he say? He

9:16

sort of didn't really respond. After

9:20

40 years of marriage, mom

9:22

was done. They had agreed

9:25

to separate and for my

9:27

dad to move out. I

9:29

mean, I'm embarrassed to say

9:31

that situation with Kira wasn't

9:33

the one that knocked it

9:35

over. But I realized as

9:37

that. He's beyond. redemption at

9:39

this point. To be honest,

9:42

I was surprised at how

9:44

quickly all this happened. Not

9:46

very long ago we talked

9:48

and you were sort of...

9:50

like, oh, I can't wait

9:52

for January 1st, so he'll

9:54

be proven wrong, and then

9:56

we can kind of like

9:59

move on. Move on. And

10:01

here we are 12 days

10:03

before New Year's, and it's

10:05

like totally sputtered out. Yeah.

10:07

I was proud of mom

10:09

for holding her ground. Soon

10:11

she could be unburdened by

10:13

all this, free to retire

10:16

and move on. And also,

10:18

she gave me some relief

10:20

of my own. It's been

10:22

a long time coming. We

10:24

were headed in this direction

10:26

long before you. At least

10:28

it wouldn't be my reporting

10:30

that did us in. So

10:33

days later, it was just

10:35

down to me and dad.

10:37

I had spent months picturing

10:39

what confronting him would look

10:41

like, but none of those

10:43

scenarios had included me being

10:45

the only one left on

10:47

good terms with him. After

10:49

going through each prediction together,

10:52

I knew it was finally

10:54

time to press him. I

10:56

just see sort of an

10:58

unwillingness to... For

11:01

you to be wrong Wrong about

11:03

10 things I'm gonna admit I

11:05

was wrong about the timeline on

11:08

all 10 things I've been wrong.

11:10

Yeah, you prefaced it. I've been

11:12

not not that you're wrong about

11:15

them You're just wrong about the

11:17

timeline. Yeah, but that's still a

11:19

type of wrong sure, but it's

11:22

a half measure. It's a way

11:24

for you to be right Yeah,

11:26

because I still believe the majority

11:29

of these things are legitimate. Yeah.

11:31

Despite dad signaling all year, he

11:33

wasn't going to change his mind.

11:36

It was still disappointing to see

11:38

it unfold. All of these beliefs,

11:40

it feels like you're really holding

11:43

on to them, and I'm not

11:45

sure why. Because I know they're

11:47

true. Why am I going to

11:50

ban in truth? Why would I

11:52

believe a lie? Why would I

11:54

give that up? And it's not

11:57

an arrogant thing. It's... It's a

11:59

knowing in my in my soul

12:01

and in my spirit. So yeah,

12:04

I mean, yeah, I can't abandon

12:06

the truth. As I watched him

12:08

dig in and double down, I

12:11

couldn't help but imagine his future.

12:13

The unvetted information he'd taken, the

12:15

precious metals and survivalist gear he'd

12:18

spend more money on. The people

12:20

he'd surround himself with as he

12:22

drifted further away from the family.

12:25

One of the things I've thought

12:27

a lot about during this process

12:29

is like, is your dead. And...

12:32

what happened to him and in

12:34

the face of so many people

12:36

around him including yourself saying hey

12:39

you're going down the wrong road

12:41

like don't do this please listen

12:43

and he wouldn't he wouldn't hear

12:46

it from anyone okay and it

12:48

cost him his life i see

12:50

a lot of parallels with what's

12:53

happening right now interesting you know

12:55

i don't think you're at risk

12:57

of physical danger

13:00

so much? Yeah. I

13:02

think you're at risk

13:04

of a lot of

13:06

other things. Like what?

13:09

Financial ruin? I think

13:11

you're at risk of

13:13

being ostracized and like

13:15

completely left out of

13:18

this family dynamic. That

13:20

would break my heart,

13:22

but I think you're

13:24

at risk reputation. You're

13:27

at risk reputation. How

13:29

so? I think the people

13:31

in your community, you know,

13:34

our friends and family, I

13:36

don't think they're, they believe

13:38

what you believe. And I

13:40

do think that's going to

13:42

continue to impact you negatively.

13:44

The majority do not, but

13:46

I don't talk to them

13:48

about it. I don't talk

13:50

to, talk, talk to Marty

13:52

about this kind of stuff.

13:54

You do talk to Marty

13:56

about this kind of stuff.

13:58

You do talk to Marty

14:00

about it. I've interviewed Marty

14:02

about it. Very very small,

14:04

very small. I've talked to

14:06

Marty, I talked to Chuck,

14:08

I talked to Paul, I

14:10

talked to John. None of

14:12

them are really on board

14:14

with these beliefs. That's not

14:16

true. Paul said he's not

14:18

on board at all and

14:20

that it's been really difficult.

14:22

Chuck, obviously not on board

14:24

at all. Marty, confused, you

14:26

know, says I'm just curious

14:28

how he got to this

14:30

place, but... I feel like

14:32

the closest friends in your

14:34

life, your family, you know,

14:36

the people around you are

14:38

telling you, hey, you're going

14:40

the wrong way, you're not

14:42

listening. Actually, none of them

14:45

are saying that to me.

14:47

None of them? None of

14:49

them? None of them. Okay.

14:51

Yeah, nobody, none of the

14:53

people you've mentioned have told

14:55

me that I'm gone in

14:57

the wrong direction. The only

14:59

people who've said that are

15:01

you. and mom. So if

15:03

all those people told you,

15:05

would you hear them? I

15:07

would listen to them. I

15:09

probably wouldn't change, but I

15:11

take it into consideration. So...

15:13

You don't think that sounds

15:15

like your dad? That aspect

15:17

of it, yeah. But my

15:19

dad... My dad had trouble

15:21

living in reality. I don't

15:23

have a trouble living in

15:25

reality. I would argue that

15:27

you do. At this point

15:29

in the conversation, I began

15:31

to struggle. I could feel

15:33

my patience wearing down. I

15:35

started to press it more.

15:37

I mean, look at the

15:39

state of our family right

15:41

now. And I think we've

15:43

gotten to this place in

15:45

large part because of your

15:47

beliefs. Well, yeah, you can

15:49

point the finger at me

15:51

and say, it's because of

15:53

your beliefs. That's partially true,

15:56

but it's simultaneously because of

15:58

your the three of your

16:00

beliefs, right? I am understand

16:02

your beliefs, but I don't

16:04

believe that way. I'm not

16:06

going to pretend I believe

16:08

that way, and I know

16:10

you guys don't want me

16:12

just to pretend. You want

16:14

me to embrace it and

16:16

live it and think it

16:18

and breathe it the same

16:20

way you do. I can't

16:22

do that. Therefore, it creates

16:24

a wedge, right? Yeah. But

16:26

it doesn't have to. And

16:28

I think. The

16:31

post-covid years have really

16:33

magnified and polarized people.

16:35

Yeah, but I would

16:37

say that's when you

16:39

got radicalized. I don't

16:41

think ultimately mom, Kira,

16:43

and I have changed

16:45

a lot ideologically since

16:47

that time. I don't

16:49

think you're in the

16:51

same place. I think

16:53

that's what's changed and

16:55

we're reacting to that

16:57

change. I can agree

16:59

with that. I see

17:01

that. I have made

17:03

more significant changes in

17:05

the past four years

17:07

in terms of my

17:09

own spiritual awareness and

17:12

spiritual growth. Yeah. So,

17:14

and that certainly, I

17:16

know, feels and looks

17:18

very radical. Let's talk

17:20

about mom for a

17:22

second. Oh, I think,

17:24

I think your mom.

17:26

I don't know what

17:28

I think about her

17:30

anymore. I mean, I

17:32

don't think negative about

17:34

her other than she's

17:36

less and confused. I

17:38

mean, I guess she

17:40

would say that about

17:42

you. Probably, and a

17:44

lot worse. I continue

17:46

to love your mom,

17:48

but this is the

17:50

irony. She sits in

17:52

judgment of me, and

17:54

therefore judges me unworthy

17:56

of... being her

17:58

partner and and husband anymore,

18:01

so she wants to walk

18:03

away and terminate the relationship

18:06

and move on. I mean,

18:08

short of pretending to be

18:11

somebody who I'm not, I

18:13

don't see a solution. Yeah.

18:15

I agree. So I think

18:18

it would take you changing

18:20

and it doesn't seem like

18:23

you're... really opens in doing

18:25

that. Yeah. Or simultaneously, it

18:28

would take the three of

18:30

you changing. Yeah. Right? Yeah,

18:33

but I... I just don't

18:35

see a compelling cell. It

18:38

doesn't seem like you're right.

18:40

I could see dad straining,

18:43

searching for any solution that

18:45

didn't involve him being wrong.

18:48

So he started bargaining. I

18:50

could never talk to you

18:53

about this again, have great

18:55

times with you, great conversations,

18:58

and pretend I didn't believe

19:00

any of this anymore. So

19:03

just suppressing it, yeah. Is

19:05

the solution, you think? No,

19:07

I don't think it's the

19:10

solution, but that's what I

19:12

feel pressured to do when

19:15

I have these kind of

19:17

conversations with you. I mean,

19:20

look. I think this year

19:22

has been difficult, especially recently.

19:25

But I also think you

19:27

and I have gotten closer

19:30

than we've ever been. I

19:32

agree. And that's why I

19:35

say, for me, that's worth

19:37

every dollar. Yeah, it's not

19:40

that it's not worth it.

19:42

It's just, well. I don't

19:45

know. I don't know that

19:47

it is worth. I don't

19:50

think these beliefs are worth

19:52

it. I think you're losing

19:55

a lot for them. I

19:57

disagree. I think you and

19:59

I are like ultimately... where

20:02

I do feel like we

20:04

are getting along really well,

20:07

I do feel conflicted because

20:09

as that's happening, you and

20:12

mom are getting separated in

20:14

Cure's Not Home for Christmas.

20:17

And those are all because

20:19

of your beliefs. Simultaneously, I

20:22

would say to you that

20:24

all three of you are

20:27

judging me very harshly. And

20:31

that's what's causing the

20:33

rift. I can accept

20:35

you and love you

20:37

and have my beliefs

20:39

and accept your beliefs.

20:42

You can't accept my

20:44

beliefs without judging me.

20:46

You don't think you're

20:48

judging Kira? Not at

20:50

all. I love my

20:53

daughter. I love Kera.

20:55

I love Kera. I

20:57

know that you do.

20:59

I would never. I

21:01

would never decide on

21:04

my daughter. I would

21:06

literally reject her sexuality.

21:08

I reject her identifying

21:10

herself as lesbian or

21:13

queer or whatever. Why?

21:15

Because I don't believe

21:17

that's a legitimate label.

21:19

and I refuse to

21:21

see my daughter only

21:24

through that lens. But

21:26

I think Kira does

21:28

feel rejected. She does

21:30

not feel fully accepted

21:32

by you. Yeah, I

21:35

get that. I get

21:37

that and I don't

21:39

know how to convince

21:41

her otherwise, but I

21:43

will continue to try.

21:46

It's not about rejection.

21:48

See, that's how you

21:50

guys label it, but

21:52

it's not rejection. It's

21:55

about... looking at it

21:57

from a spiritual viewpoint

21:59

where this is not

22:01

what God wants for

22:03

her, right? And because

22:06

I identify more with

22:08

God, I take the

22:10

same... path. What is

22:12

your plan with Kira?

22:14

To continue to reach

22:17

out to her and

22:19

continue to reassure her

22:21

that I love her

22:23

and want to spend

22:25

time with her and

22:28

I don't I don't

22:30

sit in judgment of

22:32

her and I don't

22:34

look down on her

22:37

and I don't think

22:39

anything negative about her.

22:41

As the conversation wound

22:43

down I let go

22:45

of any notion I

22:48

could convince him of

22:50

anything he didn't already

22:52

believe. I was finally

22:54

ready to stop struggling

22:56

and just accept the

22:59

truth. I couldn't help

23:01

him. Maybe someone else

23:03

could. If I arranged

23:05

for someone to speak

23:07

with you about this

23:10

stuff who sort of

23:12

specializes in this stuff,

23:14

would you be open

23:16

to something like that?

23:19

Sure. Yeah, you actually

23:21

would? Yeah. Okay. I

23:23

really appreciate. Oh, man.

23:25

It's been, it's been

23:27

a hard year, man.

23:30

This is, yeah. The

23:32

conversations we've had all

23:34

year, like I've, I

23:36

feel closer to you

23:38

than I ever have

23:41

and I'm, I'm really

23:43

sad about the state

23:45

of this family. Yeah.

23:47

But I do appreciate

23:50

your, your openness to.

23:52

I don't know. I

23:54

mean. You never ducked,

23:56

you never ducked a

23:58

hard question. No

24:02

need to. Where

24:05

do you think

24:07

we'll be next

24:10

Christmas? I don't

24:12

know. I have

24:15

no idea. I

24:18

have no idea,

24:20

man. I can't

24:23

even think that

24:25

far ahead. Yeah.

24:29

I have one final question

24:32

for you. Okay. How are

24:34

you gonna pay me? Check.

24:36

Should we go to the

24:38

bank? Should I get one

24:41

of those giant golf checks?

24:43

I figured you'd probably want

24:45

small unmarked bills. Yeah. Non-sequential.

24:47

Yes. So did you bring

24:50

a suitcase? I have a

24:52

gym bag. Okay. We'll fill

24:54

that puppy up. Let's do

24:57

it. All right,

24:59

let's get a

25:02

hug. As we

25:04

stood there hugging,

25:07

I just broke

25:09

down. I'm sorry.

25:12

I'm sorry. I

25:28

don't know what comes next, where we

25:30

go from here. It felt like things

25:32

fell apart so quickly, but also so

25:34

slowly over many years. The cracks became

25:37

holes, and in the end, we didn't

25:39

make it. I think in many ways,

25:41

I'm the one who got off the

25:44

easiest. I'm still in good standing with

25:46

everyone, which makes me feel a mixture

25:48

of relief and guilt, maybe a splash

25:50

of gratitude. And for those of you

25:53

who keep asking, yes, I took the

25:55

money, absolutely. We're walking to the Rose

25:57

Bowl. Yeah. How do you feel? But

26:00

on New... year's day, the day my

26:02

dad officially lost the bet. I'm pumped

26:04

up! I took him to go see

26:06

Ohio State, our favorite football team playing

26:09

the Rose Bowl. What do you think

26:11

the score is going to be? And

26:13

paid for everything. I think it's going

26:16

to be 31 to 22 bucks. Okay.

26:18

Yet another prediction my father got wrong

26:20

by the way. But they did win,

26:22

go buck ice. The

26:33

day was a reminder of

26:35

how good things could be,

26:38

and at the same time

26:40

of everything we couldn't be.

26:42

Not anymore. As I watched

26:44

the clock run down, I

26:46

knew the moment the game

26:48

was over, so was our

26:50

shared reality. This series would

26:52

not have been possible without

26:55

my father mother and sister

26:57

Kira. I cannot say enough

26:59

about your openness and bravery

27:01

and I'm so thankful for

27:03

your love and support throughout

27:05

this project. It means the

27:07

world to me. This series

27:09

was produced and sound design

27:12

by Ariana Garabli and Dan

27:14

Gherma. The two of you

27:16

were incredible to work with

27:18

and you both have my

27:20

back every step of the

27:22

way. You guys are amazing.

27:24

Luis Trias edited this series

27:26

and Luis, I just want

27:28

to say... Thank you for

27:31

all of your dedication and

27:33

believing in this story from

27:35

the very beginning. Music includes

27:37

original scoring by my guy

27:39

Peter Leonard. Gilly Moon and

27:41

Robert Rodriguez mastered this series,

27:43

fact-checking by Greta Pittinger. Special

27:45

thanks to Sarah Wyman for

27:48

production support. Leonna Simstrom is

27:50

our supervising senior producer. Katie

27:52

Simon is our supervising senior

27:54

editor. Katie, thank you for

27:56

being so patient with me

27:58

throughout this process. Irene Guchy is

28:01

our executive producer. NPR's senior vice

28:03

president for podcasting is Colin Campbell.

28:05

What up Colin? The embedded team

28:08

also includes Adelina Lancia Nies, Abby

28:10

Wendell, Andrew Mombo, and Reina Cohen.

28:12

Thanks to managing editor of Standards

28:15

and practices Tony Kavanaugh, and to

28:17

Michael Ratner and Johanna Sturgi for

28:19

legal support. Our visuals editor is

28:22

Emily Bogel, original tile art by

28:24

Luke Medina. Special thanks to Kelly

28:26

McEvers, Brett Neely, Sarah Ventri, and

28:28

Lauren Gonzales, and also David Kestenbaum,

28:31

Francis Swanson, and Ira Glass from

28:33

This American Life. Also, thank you

28:35

to Nishat Kerwa from Box Media,

28:38

Simon Adler, and Tessa Stewart who helped

28:40

with this story early on. Thank you

28:42

to the people in my life. Joshua

28:44

Muir, Ellen Skiff, and all the other

28:46

friends who have kept me sane over

28:48

the months. Shout out to my personal

28:50

board members, Sean Ramos-Werm and Chris Bannon,

28:52

and Dave Johnson, thank you so much

28:54

for your contract support. Finally,

28:57

we are grateful to all

28:59

the social scientists, journalists, and

29:01

other experts who took the

29:03

time to speak to us

29:05

and whose research informed this

29:07

series, including Charlie Safford, Joseph

29:09

Eusinsky, Tom Costello, Sandra Vanderlanden,

29:11

Gordon Penny Cook, Matthew Taylor,

29:13

Alexandra Philindra, and Bradonishi, who

29:15

has a great podcast called

29:17

Straight White American Jesus. Check

29:19

it out. And a big

29:21

thanks to our Embedded Plus

29:23

supporters. Embedded is where we

29:25

do ambitious long-form journalism at

29:27

NPR, and Embedded Plus helps

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Supporters also get to listen

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and every episode early, find

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out more at plus.com.org/embedded or

29:40

find the embedded channel in Apple.

29:42

All right, I'm Zach Mac and this

29:44

is embedded from NPR. Thank you for

29:47

listening. Hey,

29:51

Zach. Just wanted to check in with

29:53

you, see how you were doing. And

29:55

then also just wanted to say, we

29:57

just come from different points

29:59

of view. And I hope

30:01

that as we continue

30:03

to talk here in

30:06

2025 and as you

30:08

edit, this program, you'll

30:10

recognize that we just

30:12

come from different viewpoints

30:15

and we can still

30:17

cohabitate, so to speak,

30:19

even though we disagree

30:21

on our worldviews. All

30:24

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