0:00

McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with

0:02

one of six collectibles and your

0:04

choice of a Big Mac or

0:06

ten-piece McNuggets with spicy netherflame sauce.

0:09

Now available with a Minecraft movie

0:11

meal. I participate in McDonald's for

0:13

a limited time on Minecraft movie

0:15

only in theaters. Support for this podcast

0:17

comes from Is Business Broken? A podcast

0:20

from B.U. Questrum School of Business. A

0:22

recent episode asks what happens when big

0:24

investors hold stakes and competing companies. Stick

0:27

around until the end of this podcast

0:29

for a preview. Okay, before

0:31

we get to today's episode,

0:33

just want to remind you

0:35

that we are looking for

0:37

your stories about how AI

0:39

is playing a role in

0:41

your relationships today. So these

0:44

could be romantic relationships, but

0:46

we're not really looking for

0:48

like, I have an AI significant

0:50

other. It's more like... Did I

0:52

get a foot rub from an

0:54

AI? Did me and the AI

0:56

play checkers? Did we... Sorry. Yeah,

0:58

no, but you're yes, you're picking

1:00

up what I'm putting down here

1:02

Ben which is we're looking for

1:04

How is AI playing a role

1:07

in your work relationships in your?

1:09

Family relationships, what role is AI

1:11

taking on? What is it putting

1:13

on your plate taking off your

1:16

plate? Tell us about all of

1:18

your interesting AI relationship stories? How

1:20

did they do that Ben? You

1:23

can email us at endless threat

1:25

at WBR. Yeah, and we'd

1:27

love it if you

1:29

sent us a voice

1:31

memo in particular, because

1:33

we want your voices.

1:35

Not in a creepy

1:38

way, actually. But you

1:40

can also, of course,

1:42

send a written message,

1:44

if that's more your

1:47

jam, endless thread,

1:49

at w-b-u-r.org. Okay,

1:51

here's the rest of the

1:53

show. So

1:59

Amory we were We're going to put

2:01

a whole different episode in

2:03

the feed this week. And

2:05

then we decided to switch

2:07

it out with something else

2:09

we've been working on. Because

2:11

the messaging app signal. has

2:13

been kind of big in

2:15

the news this week. I

2:17

don't know if you heard

2:19

papers read all about it.

2:21

You know, I happened to

2:23

here, in fact, that Jeffrey

2:25

Goldberg, an investigative reporter and

2:28

the editor-in-chief at the Atlantic,

2:30

has been in a TED

2:32

A tet with top defense

2:34

cabinet members who added him

2:36

to the chat when discussing

2:38

US military strikes on Yemen

2:40

because of hootie fighters who

2:42

have been disrupting shipping there.

2:44

I feel like there was

2:46

an endless threat episode that

2:48

kind of mentioned some of

2:50

this a couple of weeks

2:52

ago. You know, that's ringing

2:54

a bell. You probably have

2:56

heard plenty about that. So

2:58

we're not going to go

3:00

too deep into that right

3:02

now. But we did decide

3:04

to drop this episode in

3:06

your feed this week because,

3:08

you know, signal chats are

3:10

a thing right now. For

3:13

us, signal chats and their

3:15

relative security were the topic

3:17

of a whole other conversation

3:19

that we have been having

3:21

over the past weeks and

3:23

months about how to responsibly

3:25

and carefully leak information to

3:27

the press. I'll tell you

3:29

one way not to do

3:31

that. Add JG to your

3:33

fellow Trump administration signal chatters

3:35

without checking on who JG

3:37

is. It's accomplished journalist Jeffrey

3:39

Goldberg. In fact, this week's

3:41

big story is a master

3:43

class in how not to

3:45

do it, which starts with

3:47

knowing who you're talking to.

3:49

Yeah, seriously, signal has long

3:51

been a communications tool used

3:53

by journalists precisely because of

3:55

its security and the ability

3:58

to protect sources and sensitive

4:00

information. And as we've been

4:02

watching the endless litany of

4:04

stories about what Doge and

4:06

Elon Musk are doing inside

4:08

the federal government to say

4:10

nothing of this week's story

4:12

about military officials using signal,

4:14

as we've seen some of

4:16

those stories leak into the

4:18

world via things like the

4:20

Fed News subreddit, for instance,

4:22

and other places, and we've

4:24

been having this conversation on

4:26

our own subreddit about how

4:28

or whether to cover this

4:30

kind of news. We had

4:32

this question. What is the

4:34

best way for a source

4:36

to get in touch with

4:38

a journalist and let them

4:40

know about something that really

4:42

Americans need to be aware

4:45

of? What? in the year

4:47

of our Lord 2025 is

4:49

a secure line. Well, we've

4:51

kind of got an answer

4:53

for that now. You can

4:55

email us at WBR Secure

4:57

Tips. at proton dot me

4:59

that is proton mail the

5:01

secure email service you can

5:03

also text or call us

5:05

on signal and the number

5:07

for that is six four

5:09

five six nine zero nine

5:11

five so again that is

5:13

w b you are secure

5:15

tips at proton dot me

5:17

or you can text or

5:19

call us on signal six

5:21

four six four five six

5:23

nine nine zero nine five

5:25

We wanted to learn and

5:27

to share some other best

5:30

practices with our listeners. And

5:32

for that info, we reached

5:34

out to a guy a

5:36

few cubicles over from us,

5:38

Todd Wallach. For the good

5:40

people, Todd, tell us what

5:42

you do at WBAUR. Sure,

5:44

I'm an investigative and data

5:46

reporter for WBAUR. Okay, but

5:48

before WBAUR, you worked at

5:50

the Boston Globe. Yes, I

5:52

worked for the Boston Globe

5:54

for 14 years. most of

5:56

that time on the Boston

5:58

Globe Spotlight team. The Boston

6:00

Globe Spotlight team might be

6:02

the oldest investigative team of

6:04

any newspaper across the country,

6:06

and it was made famous

6:08

by Spotlight the movie, which

6:10

recorded the well-known investigation that

6:12

the spotlight team... did of

6:15

the Catholic Church and sex

6:17

abuse. And am I correct

6:19

that for a while you

6:21

were the person in charge

6:23

of the spotlight tip line?

6:25

I did manage that for

6:27

a while. So I saw

6:29

all sorts of different emails

6:31

and phone calls coming in,

6:33

had spent a lot of

6:35

time listening to voicemails. What

6:37

kind of tips does a

6:39

tip line minder like you

6:41

enjoy getting? And what kind

6:43

of tips? Does a tipminder

6:45

not enjoy getting when they're

6:47

manning the spotlight tip line?

6:49

Yeah, well first of all

6:51

I should say that tips

6:53

are really important for journalists.

6:55

I think that the public

6:57

might imagine that if they

7:00

don't see a story that

7:02

the media is just not

7:04

interested or they're covering it

7:06

up, but often we don't

7:08

know about it. Or we

7:10

don't have the information needed

7:12

to actually report it and

7:14

tell the public. So tips

7:16

are really crucial in alerting

7:18

us to issues that we

7:20

might not know are going

7:22

on, or providing us with

7:24

names and documents and information

7:26

that we actually can use

7:28

to tell that story. So

7:30

the tips that are most

7:32

helpful are very specific and

7:34

very concrete. It might be,

7:36

hey, this public official. lied

7:38

about their resume and here's

7:40

how you can prove it

7:42

or here's evidence. They might

7:44

include documents or pictures that

7:47

prove what they're saying or

7:49

they might have names and

7:51

contact information of people who

7:53

can back it up or

7:55

other specific details. It's harder

7:57

when people say, hey, there's

7:59

something going on with the

8:01

Biden or Trump administration, you

8:03

should dig harder. You should

8:05

check that out. Or this

8:07

guy must be corrupt, you

8:09

should look into that. It's

8:11

like, how? My buddy's friend's

8:13

girlfriend says there are aliens,

8:15

you should get on that.

8:17

Another one, we get a

8:19

lot of conspiracy theories. It's

8:21

really hard. I'm really skeptical

8:23

when I get tips that

8:25

say, hey, there's this huge

8:27

cover-up involving the FBI, my

8:29

wife, her defense lawyer, the

8:32

judges, this media station. I

8:34

know conspiracies do happen, but

8:36

usually people are busy with

8:38

their own work and their

8:40

own problems and don't have

8:42

time to join up with

8:44

six other organizations and people

8:46

all to make some random

8:48

person's life miserable. That's totally

8:50

true, and yet it does

8:52

feel like we're living in

8:54

a slightly different time right

8:56

now with regards to the

8:58

lack of transparency around really

9:00

consequential things that the federal

9:02

government... is doing. You know,

9:04

like, whereas we might have

9:06

been more inclined in the

9:08

past to say, that's just

9:10

a conspiracy theory, something about

9:12

this moment does feel like,

9:14

oh, we might actually need

9:17

to look into that. Well,

9:19

I definitely think we're at

9:21

it. We're in an environment

9:23

where if somebody says something

9:25

happened and it sounds a

9:27

little crazy. It still might

9:29

have happened. We all probably

9:31

saw the news that the

9:33

Associated Press... One of the

9:35

most respected journalism organizations was

9:37

barred from covering White House

9:39

events because the AP style

9:41

guide that many people rely

9:43

on refused to change their

9:45

style to stop using Gulf

9:47

of Mexico and didn't change

9:49

it to Gulf of America.

9:51

And I would have guessed

9:53

that was something out of

9:55

the onion. Yeah. The onions

9:57

got tough competition with reality

9:59

these days. It feels like

10:01

at times. You spoke a

10:04

little bit to this, but

10:06

just to underscore it again,

10:08

what's the value of a

10:10

whistleblower? Well, of course, there

10:12

are different meanings by whistleblowers.

10:14

There's some people... who blow

10:16

the whistle within their own

10:18

agency or company and report

10:20

problems up the chain and

10:22

sometimes it's somebody embezzling money,

10:24

sometimes it's not following the

10:26

law in some other way.

10:28

And it's really important that

10:30

organizations know when there's a

10:32

rogue person who's flouting all

10:34

the rules and doing something

10:36

wrong. Otherwise they can't take

10:38

action. There are also lots

10:40

of cases where people can't

10:42

trust the organization they work

10:44

for, and they go to

10:46

the press, they go to

10:49

reporters, and they try to

10:51

find somebody to expose a

10:53

problem that they think is

10:55

really serious, and can't trust

10:57

their organization to take care

10:59

of it on their own.

11:01

Can you talk about what

11:03

a secure drop is? and

11:05

why someone might want to

11:07

use that kind of thing

11:09

when they're communicating with journalists?

11:11

Sure, so obviously many whistleblowers

11:13

who go to the media

11:15

are worried about being fired,

11:17

being publicly embarrassed, getting in

11:19

trouble in some other way

11:21

if they're publicly known, so

11:23

want to find some way

11:25

to confidentially give journalists information.

11:27

In some organizations, like the

11:29

Washington Post and New York

11:31

Times and ProPublica, have set

11:34

up essentially a big safety

11:36

box that people can drop

11:38

off documents electronically without giving

11:40

up their name or identity.

11:42

So a secure place to

11:44

upload files. And can you

11:46

say more about what a

11:48

secure place is? Like how

11:50

do you upload something or

11:52

email something or leave a

11:54

voicemail for something without maybe

11:56

revealing your location? What device

11:58

you're on? what any any

12:00

trace of your identity if

12:02

that's possible. There are lots

12:04

of ways that people can

12:06

communicate with journalists and keep

12:08

their identity secret. I mean

12:10

the most the most famous

12:12

was probably deep-throat. The tips

12:14

are involved in the Watergate

12:16

scandals and deep-throat kept his

12:18

identity secret by meeting with

12:21

Bob Woodward Washington Post reporter

12:23

in person. In the non-discrimination...

12:25

dimly lit parking garage. Exactly

12:27

a dimly lit parking garage.

12:29

We now know that it

12:31

turns out deep throat knew

12:33

a little bit about security.

12:35

He was deputy chief of

12:37

the FBI at the time.

12:39

So he had a lot

12:41

of inside knowledge about how

12:43

to protect himself. But there

12:45

are lots of other ways

12:47

that people can do it.

12:49

I mean, clearly talking to

12:51

somebody in person is really

12:53

secure because you're not leaving

12:55

a... a paper trail and

12:57

you're not leaving an electronic

12:59

trail. For most people, you

13:01

know, just using... Their personal

13:03

phone or their personal email

13:06

is fine. If you're not

13:08

dealing with national security secrets,

13:10

if you work for a

13:12

company or you work for

13:14

even many government agencies and

13:16

you're not dealing in security,

13:18

as long as you're not

13:20

using your work email and

13:22

your work phone, your bosses

13:24

aren't going to be able

13:26

to trace who talked to

13:28

a reporter. For people who

13:30

do handle national... security secrets

13:32

or handle really sensitive stuff

13:34

like IRS files. They have

13:36

to take a lot more

13:38

precautions. There's also proton mail

13:40

which is an email service

13:42

that encrypts email so I

13:44

know that's used by a

13:46

lot of people to send

13:48

sensitive messages. Another way that

13:51

people can hand off files

13:53

is they can do it

13:55

in person handing off a

13:57

CD or a hard drive

13:59

and they can send it

14:01

to the mail. Believe it

14:03

or not. The good old

14:05

US mail says is one

14:07

of the more secure ways

14:09

that people can send information,

14:11

just dropping off mail at

14:13

a mailbox, and there's usually

14:15

no trace of who sent

14:17

it. And in fact, US

14:19

Mail is the way that

14:21

a leaker leaked Donald Trump's

14:23

tax returns to the New

14:25

York Times and the way

14:27

the same person leaked tax

14:29

returns or tax data. on

14:31

many wealthy Americans to pro-publico.

14:33

And interestingly, neither publication knew

14:36

who sent them the data.

14:38

So the hardest part for

14:40

them was once they got

14:42

the information was verifying that

14:44

it was real. More from

14:46

Todd in a minute. This

15:03

episode is brought to you

15:05

by Shopify. Forget the frustration

15:07

of picking commerce platforms when

15:10

you switch your business to

15:12

Shopify. The global commerce platform

15:14

that supercharges you're selling wherever

15:16

you sell. With Shopify, you'll

15:19

harness the same intuitive features

15:21

trusted apps and powerful analytics

15:23

used by the world's leading

15:26

brands. Sign up today for

15:28

your $1 per month trial

15:30

period at shopify.com/ tech. Support

15:32

for this podcast comes from

15:35

Is Business Broken, a podcast

15:37

from the EU Questrum School

15:39

of Business. In 2018, an

15:41

influential business paper found that

15:43

airlines that shared common investors

15:45

had higher prices. It sparked

15:47

all kinds of additional questions.

15:49

You know, if this is

15:51

happening in airlines, is it

15:54

also happening elsewhere? A recent

15:56

episode of Is Business Broken

15:58

dives into the real-world impacts

16:00

of common ownership. wherever you

16:02

get your podcast, and stick

16:04

around until the end of

16:06

this podcast for a

16:08

preview of the episode.

16:11

We're talking with Todd

16:13

Wallach, our colleague at

16:15

WBR, about how to communicate

16:17

with journalists while protecting

16:20

your identity as a

16:22

source. Things like... using

16:25

the good old-fashioned snail

16:28

mail or protecting your

16:30

device using something called

16:33

a Faraday cage. It's a

16:35

way to block electrical signals

16:37

from computers. Once when I

16:40

worked at the Boston

16:42

Globe, we had some classified

16:44

materials that we needed

16:47

to keep secure and we

16:49

kept them on a computer

16:51

that was air gapped, meaning...

16:53

There was air between that

16:55

computer and any other computer

16:57

network. Because one big risk

16:59

that people are concerned about

17:01

is that if you have

17:04

materials on a computer that

17:06

are sensitive and they're connected

17:08

to other computers and then

17:10

in turn connected to the

17:12

internet, they might be vulnerable.

17:15

I also personally worry that if

17:17

somebody handed me a bunch of

17:19

files and I just inserted them

17:21

on a computer, Could it contain

17:24

malware that infects our own

17:26

computer? Could it be a

17:28

Trojan horse in other words? So

17:30

journalists also have to protect

17:33

themselves and make sure that

17:35

they're not inadvertently uploading

17:37

viruses or some other

17:39

nefarious software to their

17:42

entire network when they

17:44

get sensitive files from

17:46

people? You and I talked

17:48

recently about... about some of

17:50

these technology challenges and talked

17:52

about how signal the messaging

17:55

service can sometimes be a

17:57

simpler way to go and

17:59

journalists. and whistleblowers or anonymous

18:01

sources are trying to talk

18:03

to each other. Yeah, absolutely.

18:06

And a lot of people

18:08

that I know who worry

18:10

about security tend to like

18:12

signal because it's not only

18:14

encrypted in the entire way,

18:16

but signal the organization also

18:19

doesn't keep copies of the

18:21

messages. They might have a

18:23

record. of who contacted who

18:25

and when, but they don't

18:27

have a record of actual

18:30

messages, where there are some

18:32

other messaging services where people

18:34

worry that the operator does

18:36

have copies of the actual

18:38

records. And so a government

18:40

agency or a company might

18:43

be able to subpoena those

18:45

companies and get copies of

18:47

those records. That is exactly

18:49

what I was going to

18:51

ask because I think... for

18:54

a while now, and we

18:56

used to make this show

18:58

in partnership with Redit, for

19:00

a while, Redit has been

19:02

seen as like the anonymous

19:04

place to go to share

19:07

your stories, your tips, your

19:09

leaks, your whatever, not the

19:11

only place, but a place

19:13

where you can be anonymous,

19:15

and yet recently I've been

19:17

thinking about. What if read

19:20

it, like we've seen with

19:22

Meta, where we've seen Mark

19:24

Zuckerberg acquiesced to the Trump

19:26

administration in a way that

19:28

may be surprised some people.

19:31

What if that happens with

19:33

Reddit? And suddenly, yes, your

19:35

username is anonymous, but your

19:37

email address is not. If

19:39

we're talking about signal though,

19:41

which does seem like it's

19:44

secure in a different way,

19:46

on a different level, are

19:48

there things that a source

19:50

should be keeping in mind

19:52

when reaching out to a

19:54

journalist on a platform like

19:57

signal? Yeah, so one thing

19:59

again is it's important not

20:01

to use your work phone

20:03

because if it's your work

20:05

phone, the works IT department

20:08

can probably tell that you've

20:10

installed signal and maybe they

20:12

would wonder why? The other

20:14

thing is that it is

20:16

while it is true that

20:18

using signal in some other

20:21

systems means that the messages

20:23

are encrypted on route, they're

20:25

scrambled, so it's harder to

20:27

intercept the messages, they're probably

20:29

original copies of the messages

20:31

stored on both the sender

20:34

and the recipients phone. So

20:36

if somebody got arrested and

20:38

they grabbed their phone, that

20:40

phone would have copies of

20:42

all the messages. Unless they

20:45

said it to auto-delete or

20:47

they manually deleted it. I

20:49

think a lot of people

20:51

think about this in a

20:53

pretty altruistic way. I mean,

20:55

certainly I do because I'm

20:58

a journalist and, you know,

21:00

my view part of my

21:02

job is part of the

21:04

fourth estate sort of being

21:06

skeptical of things and, you

21:09

know, helping people speak truth

21:11

to power and all sorts

21:13

of things. Any kind of

21:15

leak or whistle-blowing act is

21:17

a risky act, both for

21:19

the journalists sometimes, but really

21:22

more importantly and more largely

21:24

for the source. Absolutely. And

21:26

granted, most people who are

21:28

going to leak aren't going

21:30

to leak national security details,

21:32

so the risk is a

21:35

bit lower. But there are

21:37

certainly people who have shared

21:39

important secrets because they thought

21:41

it was important and have

21:43

gotten into serious jeopardy. One

21:46

name that comes to mind

21:48

is Reality Winner, and that

21:50

is a real name. She

21:52

was a government employee who

21:54

was concerned in hearing reports

21:56

that Russia had interfered in

21:59

the... U.S. elections and there

22:01

were a lot of people

22:03

publicly denying that and she

22:05

had access to military intelligence

22:07

showing that the military Intelligence

22:09

officials did indeed have evidence

22:12

of Russia interference. So she

22:14

wanted to share that story.

22:16

She printed out some pages

22:18

of that report, mailed it

22:20

off to the Intercept. The

22:23

Intercept didn't know who she

22:25

was. But in trying to

22:27

verify that information, the Intercept

22:29

shared it with the government,

22:31

and they also, I think,

22:33

posted... the document later online

22:36

and the government was able

22:38

to notice that there was

22:40

a fold in the paper

22:42

indicating it was printed and

22:44

because it was printed out

22:46

at a secure national security

22:49

facility they keep elaborate records

22:51

on who printed out what

22:53

at each time and there

22:55

were also embedded marks that

22:57

wouldn't be visible to the

23:00

naked eye easily, that had

23:02

additional information about when and

23:04

where it was printed out,

23:06

and they were able to

23:08

use that to track her

23:10

down. And she wound up

23:13

going to prison for five

23:15

years. Charles Little John, the

23:17

person who shared the confidential

23:19

tax returns for billionaires and

23:21

Donald Trump. Again, the media

23:24

didn't know who he was,

23:26

but... because the IRS very

23:28

carefully tracks the distribution of

23:30

tax information and tax data,

23:32

they were eventually able to

23:34

figure out who did it,

23:37

and he was also sentenced,

23:39

I believe, to five years

23:41

in prison, which was far

23:43

above the recommended maximum term.

23:45

You were talking about deep

23:47

throat and watergate and... the

23:50

specifics of how that information

23:52

was leaked. But if we

23:54

zoom out and we think

23:56

about real world changes that

23:58

have come, that have happened

24:01

as a result of some

24:03

of these whistleblowers and anonymous

24:05

sources and leaks, what would

24:07

you say are those? kind

24:09

of bigger real-world impacts? Welling

24:11

the whistle is really important

24:14

in exposing corruption or problems,

24:16

systematic failures, all sorts of

24:18

issues that otherwise we wouldn't

24:20

know about. In the case

24:22

of Watergate, it brought down

24:24

a presidency and it inspired

24:27

the creation of a whole

24:29

flurry of laws including... the

24:31

Freedom of Information Act, including

24:33

laws eventually to protect whistleblowers.

24:35

So in many cases, there

24:38

are legal ways that people

24:40

can notify their own company

24:42

or now or their own

24:44

agency about problems, or they

24:46

can go to government watchdog

24:48

organizations and report problems with

24:51

some security because there are

24:53

laws protecting people against retaliation.

24:55

I think there's greater awareness

24:57

with movies about Watergate, about

24:59

the importance of alerting the

25:02

press to problems. And again,

25:04

in 99% of the cases,

25:06

people who blow the whistle

25:08

are not in jeopardy of

25:10

violating the law. It is

25:12

not illegal to tell a

25:15

journalist that their government agency

25:17

is laying off tons of

25:19

people. That is probably important

25:21

news. People should be aware

25:23

of it, but it is

25:25

not one of those national

25:28

security secrets where people face

25:30

legal jeopardy from informing the

25:32

public about. And it is

25:34

really important that people contact

25:36

either their government agency or

25:39

journalists to alert the public

25:41

when there is a real

25:43

problem that isn't getting fixed.

25:45

Seems like a good place

25:47

to end. Todd Wallach, thank

25:49

you very much. It's great

25:52

having the conversation with you.

26:00

A reminder to our listeners

26:03

that yes, you can reach

26:05

us securely via email at

26:07

WBR Secure Tips at Proton.me.

26:09

That's our email. Or you

26:11

can text and call us

26:13

on signal at 646-456-9095. And

26:16

we should say W-B-U-R is

26:18

an NPR member station, and

26:20

the CEO of NPR, Catherine

26:22

Mar, chairs the board of

26:24

the Signal Foundation, the non-profit

26:27

that supports the messaging app.

26:29

And again, if there's anything

26:31

you need to tell us

26:33

about, we are all ears.

26:35

Secure ears. This episode was

26:37

produced by Caitlin Herup and

26:40

Franny Monaghan. It was co-hosted

26:42

by me, Ben Brock Johnson.

26:44

And me, Amory Severnes, it

26:46

was edited by our production

26:48

manager, Paul Vicus. The rest

26:51

of our team is Dean

26:53

Russell, Emily Jankowski, Grace Tatter,

26:55

and our managing producer, Summit

26:57

Adjoshi. See you next week!

26:59

when the same big investors

27:02

buy stakes in multiple competing

27:04

companies, are those firms still

27:06

competitors? That phenomenon is known

27:08

as common ownership, and a

27:10

recent episode of Is Business

27:12

Broken, dives into how common

27:15

ownership affects prices, innovation, and

27:17

more. Here's a preview of

27:19

that episode. You've uncovered a

27:21

number of interesting effects in

27:23

companies and industries that have

27:26

common owners, how it can

27:28

affect competition, prices of products

27:30

in the market, innovation, executive

27:32

compensation, managerial incentives. What have

27:34

you seen that happens when

27:36

this power is consolidated like

27:39

this? Yeah, I think it's

27:41

a fascinating question. Of course,

27:43

I think it's a fascinating

27:45

question because much of my

27:47

work in the last couple

27:50

of years has been in

27:52

this space. But just to

27:54

clearly state the hypothesis of

27:56

common ownership again, it's a

27:58

situation really where you have

28:01

these common owners that hold

28:03

large stakes in companies that

28:05

are competing against each other.

28:07

But now because the companies

28:09

are held by these common

28:11

investors and common owners, perhaps

28:14

they have less of an

28:16

incentive to engage in such

28:18

intense competition with each other.

28:20

Now that has positive effects

28:22

for the profits and that's

28:25

something that the investors actually

28:27

quite like and that benefits

28:29

potentially all of us who

28:31

are invested in these companies,

28:33

but that has potentially negative

28:36

effects for consumers. of the

28:38

products that these companies make.

28:40

So just as an example

28:42

here, if you represent a

28:44

lot of shareholders in Coca-Cola

28:46

and Pepsi-Cola, then you basically

28:49

aren't going to pressure one

28:51

of them to lower their

28:53

prices and really go after

28:55

the market share of the

28:57

other. because you get more

29:00

profits in one company, you

29:02

get less than the other,

29:04

and it's all kind of

29:06

a wash. You would rather

29:08

see both companies keep their

29:10

prices higher and make more

29:13

money across the market because

29:15

you own that market. Exactly.

29:17

It's a very, very simple

29:19

logic. And when I talk

29:21

to people about common ownership

29:24

that are not in economics,

29:26

they middle say, yeah, but

29:28

isn't that totally obvious that

29:30

this is something that would

29:32

happen? And I said, well...

29:35

You know, it's something that

29:37

is obvious once I've explained

29:39

it to you. And this

29:41

wasn't a situation that was

29:43

so predominant 40 years ago,

29:45

but it is very much

29:48

dominant paradigm right now. Find

29:50

the full

29:52

episode by searching

29:54

for for Is

29:56

broken wherever you

29:59

get your

30:01

podcasts get learn

30:03

more about the

30:05

and Institute for

30:07

the Markets and

30:09

Society for Business Markets

30:12

.edu. IBMS.bU.EDU.