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Welcome to another episode of Engineering Influence, a podcast by the American

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Council of Engineering Companies. Today, we're here to talk about a partnership between UConn School of Civil

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and Environmental Engineering and the Connecticut Department of Transportation,

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that seeks to help address workforce development in their state.

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I'm pleased to be joined by Eric Jackson, a research professor and executive

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director of the Connecticut Transportation Institute within the UConn School

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of Engineering, and Carlo Leone, Director of Workforce Development and Strategic

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Initiatives at the Connecticut Department of Transportation.

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Eric and Carlo, it's good to see you. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to highlight this endeavor.

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I'm personally grateful given CTI's affiliation with the Engineering Workforce Consortium.

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A priority of the Engineering Workforce Consortium is to bring awareness to

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successful programs and partnerships that set out to address the workforce shortage

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facing the engineering industry, so we're pleased to have you both.

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With that, let's dive in. Eric and Carlo, how did this partnership come into existence?

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I can maybe start out. We've been working with the Connecticut DOT on research for a very long time.

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And this initiative really came out because the Connecticut DOT reached out

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to UConn saying, we need more engineers to be able to meet the demands that we have.

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We're retiring a lot of staff and we need UConn to help us graduate and kind

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of develop the workforce. At the same time, we received feedback from the Connecticut DOT that we need

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to maybe tweak our curricula a little bit to make sure that students that are

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graduating are actually in the correct fields,

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they come out prepared for the tasks and the skills that the Connecticut DOT

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needs most critically at this point.

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Yeah, and I'll just add to that. And thanks for having us, Patrick.

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It's really wonderful for both of us to be here to highlight our working relationship.

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And just to piggyback on what Eric said, the Connecticut DOT and UConn have

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had long collaborations for many years now.

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And this is just an extension of trying to be better cooperatively in terms

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of trying to meet the needs and demands for the infrastructure workforce that we need for the future.

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So when we saw that UConn entered into the New England, the engineering consortium,

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you know, we wanted to make sure that we participate as well,

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work as best we can to really focus on building the platforms for the future.

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And Tarek's point about trying to find new engineers for all the projects that

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are out there, this has worked seamlessly for us and we wanted to make sure

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that we could do just that. So really, this has been an ongoing effort, but now we're starting to actually

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focus in on the needs by adjusting the curriculum, making sure that we have

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outreach to the students to really elevate our projects going forward.

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That's great. As you guys both indicated in your answers, talking about the

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curriculum, what modifications were necessary to make an impactful program?

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Yeah, let me touch in real quick and then Eric can get into the details.

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You know, we at the DOT, we have so many projects going on at all at the same time, basically.

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And as we're trying to find new engineers, we're working with all our schools

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and UConn being our flagship university was just a natural progression to really focus on that.

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And UConn being a great research university, you know, they teach their engineers

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all sorts of applications. But we wanted to, we asked them to dive just a little bit deeper on the civil engineering.

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They teach theory well, but we wanted to make sure that the students had a little

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bit more practical experience taught.

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And so we're trying to create those agreements on how to best do that.

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And we're aware that curriculum cannot be changed easily overnight.

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But we wanted to at least start that discussion on how best to do that.

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And I follow up on that with, you know, civil engineering is a very, very broad major.

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So you can go into structures, you can go into site design, transportation.

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Water resources, environmental. I mean, it's a very, very broad field. So hearing back directly from a group

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within the state that's actually hiring our graduates was incredibly valuable

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to understand where their needs currently lie,

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kind of where some of their deficiencies are in terms of being able to hire

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and those skill sets that they see are most valuable.

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So really getting that feedback was really important for us so that we can start focusing on.

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So if the DOT has a need in bridge design, we can maybe focus or we can even

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try and push some of our students into structures, into a field that the DOT

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sees as a potential growth opportunity for them.

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Or if they've got a lot of retirements coming up and they need to start refilling

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those positions, we can kind of move students around a little bit.

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We can encourage them on which skill sets are going to be most important for their future.

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Because ultimately, we want to hire, we want to produce students that are,

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you know, key to the workforce and they can get a job once they graduate.

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Yeah, that's great perspective. I think to both your points,

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when you look at some of these modifications that you have to make,

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sometimes the realized gains of those changes aren't felt for a while. So how do you guys work.

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As organizations through your administrations and leadership to be patient in

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those modifications to see those results, because I think, you know,

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in education, it just takes time to see those results.

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I mean, that's a challenge within the university system itself.

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I mean, we have to have staff or faculty that redesign a course,

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that redesign of a course or, you know, tweaking of the curriculum may take a year, year and a half.

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And then you've got to get a whole core cohort of students through that program,

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which, you know, it's a four or five year program. So you're really looking

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at kind of a six year kind of push before you really start seeing some of those gains.

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So it's a very large ship that takes a long time to turn.

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And, you know, we have a lot of different groups that hire students.

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So we'd love to get feedback, but we can't meet, you know, we can't slice and

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dice the curriculum so much that we only graduate engineers for one individual group.

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So it's very political. There's a lot of moving parts and pieces.

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But the goal is to really start working with people that are hiring so we can

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start seeing, are the changes we make, are they actually having desired outcome?

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And if they're not, then we make another change, another tweak,

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and we kind of iterate until we get either the DOT or other groups exactly what they need.

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Yeah, and I'll add to that too. You know, it basically boils down to a lot of

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constant communication, staying in touch with each other and really flushing

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out where we are and where we're trying to go and working within,

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you know, the framework of both institutions.

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So those, we set up monthly calls to make sure that we can stay on target and

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address any issues or concerns that pop up along the way and really focus on what we're trying to do.

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So that's really had a huge impact and benefit to keeping our eye on the ball

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and what we're trying to accomplish. That's great. In my current capacity within ACEC, I lead the workforce committee here.

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And a lot of times what I'm hearing is the introduction of technology into this

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space and what kind of impact that will have over the working environment over the next 5, 10, 15 years.

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How is CTI and UConn School of Engineering introducing technology into the curriculum

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to meet today's workforce environment? So this is a very challenging way to move forward. I mean, you look at tools like AI and chat GPT.

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If you start using those tools without knowing the fundamentals and basics,

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you can't judge what the output of that tool is and if it's valid or if it's

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kind of a hallucination that's coming up out of out of AI.

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So we still really try and focus on the foundations of engineering.

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There's a lot of great technology and tools that are out there.

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But if you don't understand the inputs and you don't understand to make sure

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that the output is reasonable and just,

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then you're going to end up with a significant issue with designs or outcomes

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that may be faulty and may end up costing people their lives.

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So we have to do this balance of ensuring that our students have the fundamentals

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and foundations, but we also need to start incorporating new technologies into the classroom.

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You know, that started with CAD and, you know, we used to draft everything out

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on paper and, you know, there's better ways to do things, but you still have

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to keep that quality control and that check.

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So trying to understand where the Connecticut DOT is going,

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kind of where their current level set is with technology, what they're comfortable

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with, we can push some of those boundaries,

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but we don't want students to come out and then expect to go to an employer

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and that employer's not ready for the level of technology that the students

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have been trained and taught at. So it's a very, very delicate balance we have to try and push forward with.

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Yeah. And at the DOT, you know, we use a lot of existing technology,

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but we also know that there's a lot of new technology coming,

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you know, coming down and will be available.

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So we're trying to pivot when we need to. And by keeping in constant communication

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with Eric and his team, that gives us a little bit of a lead time to sort of

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say, hey, how do we get to where we want to go?

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So whether it be artificial intelligence with our vehicles, whether it's wrong

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way driving, which we're initiating, it could be in even the materials department

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for what we need for our roads and infrastructure.

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So it's just sharing that information as to saying, where do we need to address our focus?

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And I think that cross collaboration is starting to make a huge impact because

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now the leadership in both organizations are speaking the same language to each other.

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And we're available to share our expertise from, you know, where the rubber

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meets the road, so to speak, with Eric as he's trying to teach his new students

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and build new curriculum. So we're here to offer any expertise for when they need that information and

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hopefully build the program the way it needs to be for the future.

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I guess I don't want to follow the question for that, because I think when you

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think of the role of technology, how will that impact the working environment?

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Will there be, think of like an ER, you know, when you imagine an ER from 25

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years ago, you would have five attending doctors on that floor with maybe two nurse practitioners.

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That ratio has kind of flipped on its head where you have now one attending

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doctor with probably 15 nurse practitioners servicing that one area.

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How does that correlation transfer over to the engineering industry with technology's advancements?

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Are you still pushing to have those licensed engineers or are you emphasizing

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that technology could create a para-engineer type role?

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I'll leave that to either both of you to answer.

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Yeah, I'll take a quick crack at it. You know, it's a really great and interesting question.

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We can never have too many engineers, but at the same time, new technology opens

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up a lot of new doors and opportunities as to what our engineers can do.

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For example, when we need to inspect rails and bridges and so forth,

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it was a lot of boots on the ground. But now with the advent of drone technology, we can have, you know,

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high above inspections without putting people at risk. So that's a new skill

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set that is then learned by our engineers.

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It doesn't replace them as a person needed for the agency.

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It just gives them another skill set to really improve and expand their capabilities.

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So I think one doesn't preclude the other or take away from each other.

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It's more it adds to the capability of the agency.

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I would follow up on that. It's very similar to where we're headed with autonomous

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and connected vehicles. My goal is not to create self-driving vehicles, but my goal is to create a car

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that supplements the ability of the driver of that vehicle, to create a car that can't crash.

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But that driver, that vehicle is still behind the wheel, still making the decisions,

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still the one that is in primary control, but their skills are augmented with

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new technologies, new ways of looking at things and innovative skills that really

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kind of improve the system overall.

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And we're not trying to replace that driver of the vehicle, not trying to replace the engineer.

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We're trying to augment their ability to do work more productively and accurately and timely.

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Great. I definitely agree with both those perspectives.

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You know, as part of the Engineering Workforce Consortium, we like to highlight

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these programs. And so when you think of the meaningful impact that this partnership

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can have to achieve scalability in Connecticut. Who are the stakeholders that need to be involved?

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And if other states were to consider this type of arrangement,

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what recommendations would you both make?

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Yeah, I'll add real quick. You know, we with DOT, we have so many large projects,

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it cuts across such a wide spectrum. So we work and try to reach out to our consultants.

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We work with our contractors. We've been doing a lot of outreach with our higher education institutions to

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really produce quality engineers,

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UConn being one of the key members, and also keeping our state and officials

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and elected officials informed all the way from the governor down to the legislature

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so that they are aware of what we're trying to accomplish and making sure that

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government has a role to play as well as in the private public partnership space.

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So it's making sure that all the entities that have a role to play are talking

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to each other and are part of the conversation.

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One of the key things that I kind of learned from this is, you know,

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more feedback from those that are that are consuming our students is always great.

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Understanding where our students going and where the demand is is critical.

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But one of the other things that I learned internally to the university is it's

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not as easy as going, all right, we're going to add, you know,

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50 new students this semester. There's bureaucracy within the university system itself.

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There's not a switch that we can just flip and say, all right,

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we're going to dramatically increase the number of students.

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The university has to balance kind of degrees and majors across the entire university.

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There's always a kind of a push and pull for who's going to get the most students.

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It requires within the university, us going all the way up to the provost level,

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to one of the highest levels within the university, to basically make this pitch

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and demand that we have a hiring agency within the state that has this demand for students.

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How do we help them meet that demand? And how do we graduate more, more engineers?

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Completely different level of thinking than I'm kind of have been accustomed

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to in the past and never really fully understood the process that has to go

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into increasing the number of engineers and increasing the number of students.

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And then you hope those students actually stick around for the four years to graduate at the end.

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So it was definitely a challenge. We did end up getting a 10% increase kind

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of in the admits for civil and environmental engineering.

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We'll see over the next couple of years, how many of those kind of are retained

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and then actually end up graduating through the program.

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That's great. Well, you kind of walked into my next question there,

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and I'll kind of try and pivot a little bit because you talked about those practices,

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that you guys are making within the UConn School of Engineering.

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Eric, if you could just provide context for our viewers, where does this program

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stand as it relates to enrollment and where do you envision it?

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I know that what you just said really reflects market demand and trying to listen

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to market input to make your course corrections.

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But if you were to forecast, I don't know, three, five, maybe eight years down

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the road, what does the school envision for this program?

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So we were really looking for where the growth areas are.

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Up until a year or two ago, computer science, like we, there were so many computer

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science applications that were coming in.

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The computer science field was growing dramatically. This last cycle,

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we actually saw a dramatic increase in the number of civil engineering students that were applying.

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It seems like there was this kind of a little bit of a shift away from kind

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of the technology side and back a little bit more towards some of our traditional,

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we call it kind of the dirt and rocks, part and piece of engineering, getting back to those physical sciences that are needed.

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The state really started to work on trying to promote transportation engineering

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as a career and a career path.

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So I think in the last section or the last group of students that came through,

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civil environmental engineering was the largest with the second largest group

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of people that said they were wanting to come into into that major within the

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University of Connecticut. So we're kind of seeing this a little bit of shift away from the technology

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back into more traditional sciences. And I think the market is kind of driving that.

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We look at the bipartisan infrastructure law. There's a lot of push that's been

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out there to rebuild our infrastructure.

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And I think students are seeing that.

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Students hear that a lot. So the more they hear and see the opportunities and

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options, the more we have interest in those kind of more traditional technologies.

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And that job market will help drive students that join the universities.

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That's great. And kind of, I guess, from the department's perspective and a

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state agency, what are you guys hoping to see from a growth standpoint?

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What is it that you guys are expecting? Well, we're living it as well as expecting it, that we have so many projects

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throughout the state all happening at the same time. So we're really trying

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to make sure that we have a sustainable workforce.

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We're helping and we're trying to help Eric and through all our capabilities

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to really publicize that civil engineering is an exciting field.

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It still is an exciting field and is still out there and available for folks

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for a great career with great pay and great benefits.

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So it's really publicizing what I think has been shadowed in the recent past

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through all the new technology and STEM engineering, which is all great and needed.

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But we don't want to lose sight of the fact that civil engineering has a great career platform.

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So we work to make sure that we publicize it as best as possible.

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We, you know, we work with the school to have our interns and promoting summer

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programs, bringing on apprenticeships on board so that students can actually

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do a test drive, if you will, with the agency.

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And then, you know, see, be ready for them when they're ready to graduate so

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that if we pitch to them early on that we are an employer that desires their

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capabilities, in the end, we want to be an employer of choice.

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They're going to have, you know, a broad spectrum of employers that could utilize their needs.

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We just want to make sure that they consider the agency when that time comes.

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But first and foremost, we really want to pitch the idea that civil engineering

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is key to the state success as well as the national success.

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So what we're talking about here, I'm sure, is the discussions that are happening

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statewide across the country. That's great, Kyle. And I appreciate that from an educational standpoint,

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I guess, Erica, I'd almost pose the same question.

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How do we continue to promote the value proposition of civil engineering?

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But I think your discussion is a little bit different because you're the first

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touchpoint for students coming into the industry who are interested.

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So what does the messaging look like from a UConn School of Engineering perspective?

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I think it's twofold. I think it's understanding that there's tremendous value

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in an engineering degree. There's tremendous flexibility within a civil engineering degree.

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So you may graduate thinking you're going to do one thing, you get into an agency

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like the DOT, and there's like so many different fields.

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You could be out underneath a bridge, you can be building a roadway.

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I mean, there's tons of different opportunities within even an estate agency

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like the DOT, where you're not stuck in one spot and you have no flexibility or ability to move.

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The second thing, and I think the Connecticut DOT is really starting to do a

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great job with this, is students want to be able to see what their career progression looks like.

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Like, what does my first year look like after my first year?

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What opportunities do I have to move up? What's my pay going to be as I move up? So I've seen some documents coming out.

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We've talked with the DOT kind of laying out what that career progression looks like.

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How many years does it take to get from a level one to a level two and then

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a level two to a level three? Like, how do you grow as an engineer?

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And then when you start at an institution, what type of support are you going to get?

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What type of mentorship are you going to get? Are you going to be just thrown

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into a dark room and, you know, left behind a computer?

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Are you going to get to see and experience the entire organization and truly

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understand kind of what you do on a day-to-day basis and how it impacts the

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entire state and community and people that are actually out there traveling?

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So I think the DMT has really started to kind of change their messaging.

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And I think students are starting to pick up on that there is a lot of versatility

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and there's a lot of career growth and options that are going to come out as

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we have an aging engineering workforce.

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You know, those boomers are starting to retire and it's creating some voids

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at the top that really allows some of these people coming in,

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students graduating, to see a career path and trajectory up through the system. That's great.

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Being mindful of time, I know, Eric and Kyle, it's been an absolute pleasure

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having you both on the Engineering Influence podcast.

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I think given your affiliation with the Engineering Workforce Consortium,

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these conversations will continue. To your last point, Eric, you know, trying to really educate students about

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the career trajectory that they could have is really meaningful.

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And so look forward to our next opportunity. But thanks again,

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both to Eric and Carlo for joining us on Engineering Influence.

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Thank you. Thanks, Travis. Thank you.