0:02

Welcome to Engineering Matters.

0:04

I'm Johnny Dowling. This week

0:06

we're bringing you an episode

0:09

of Planet Beyond, originally aired

0:11

in September 2024. Produced by

0:13

Engineering Matters publisher Reby Media,

0:16

in partnership with geodata specialist

0:18

Fugro, Planet Beyond explores how

0:21

a detailed understanding of our

0:23

planet can help ensure its

0:25

health. The discussions featured

0:27

in the podcast. Both consider

0:29

the technologies that can be

0:32

used to protect our planet

0:34

and the leadership skills needed

0:36

to bring the best out

0:38

of a diverse and expert

0:40

workforce. In this episode, host

0:42

John Baston Pitt talks to

0:44

three leading experts in hydrography

0:46

about an ambitious project to

0:48

map Italy's coastal waters and

0:50

the biodiversity within them.

0:52

Now, let's hear from John. Hello

1:05

again and welcome to

1:08

the Planet Beyond podcast

1:10

brought to you by Fugro,

1:12

the leading partner in delivering

1:15

geodata from the greatest subsea

1:17

depths right to outer space

1:20

and hosted by me John

1:22

Basten Pit. As part of

1:24

the UN Ocean Decade

1:27

and other agreements have

1:29

committed to protect coastal

1:31

communities and develop a

1:34

just and sustainable blue

1:36

economy. But how can adherence

1:38

to these commitments be

1:40

assessed without properly understanding

1:43

the health of the

1:45

ocean? That's the challenge.

1:47

Italian hydrographers hope to

1:49

solve with a national

1:51

approach to co-storm mapping.

1:53

One of their first projects

1:55

has been to map the extent

1:58

and health of sea grass. a

2:00

crucial contributor to

2:02

ocean carbon capture. Today,

2:10

we're joined by

2:12

John Nyberg, Technical Director

2:14

for the International

2:17

Hydrographic Organization, or IHR.

2:19

Giordano Giorgi, the

2:21

Project Director for Italy's

2:23

Marine Initiative at

2:26

the Institute for Environmental

2:28

Protection and Research,

2:30

or ISPRA. Marco Filipponi,

2:33

Global Solution Director

2:35

for Ocean Science and

2:37

Hydrography at Fugro. John,

2:40

perhaps we can start

2:43

with you. The IHO's role

2:45

in how we understand

2:47

our ocean is being transformed.

2:49

It used to be

2:51

focused, as I understand it,

2:54

and I'm possibly simplifying

2:56

things here. On

2:58

one parameter, the depth of

3:00

water. Currently

3:02

your organization is promoting

3:04

and setting standards

3:06

about a myriad of

3:08

parameters, including many

3:10

more stakeholders than just

3:12

navigators and mariners.

3:15

Can you talk us

3:17

through this transformation? Yeah,

3:20

sure. Thank you very

3:22

much for the question, and

3:24

it's a pleasure to

3:26

be here today. So the

3:28

IHO is a standards

3:30

organization, and throughout our 100

3:33

-year history, we've been developing

3:35

standards of different kinds,

3:37

and really with the goal

3:39

to make sure that

3:41

data is integrated and easy

3:43

to read. So we

3:45

may have started with paper

3:47

charts and sort of

3:50

in a simpler time collecting

3:52

data and making sure

3:54

that mariners around the world

3:56

were all able to

3:58

read it to now. where

4:00

we're really working on

4:03

modern standards to make

4:05

sure that data can

4:08

be integrated across, it's

4:10

not only for

4:12

navigation anymore but it's

4:15

across thematic areas,

4:18

is increasingly important.

4:20

So we really want

4:22

to be sure that

4:25

mariners and all users

4:27

of this data have

4:29

access to different thematic

4:32

areas and that the

4:34

marine geospatial information is

4:37

integrated with the wider

4:39

digital information ecosystem. So

4:42

this is to mean

4:44

that when we're considering

4:48

informed decision-making, we will

4:50

want to take weather

4:52

into account, we want

4:54

to take land information

4:56

and how that affects

4:59

our oceans and the

5:01

reverse will also apply. We

5:03

will want to make sure

5:05

in the marine space that

5:07

when we're looking to track

5:09

progress on sustainable development

5:12

goals and other

5:14

areas that we

5:16

consider oceanographic effects

5:18

like surface currents

5:20

and salinity and

5:22

temperature. This is a huge

5:25

shift that we're seeing, and I

5:27

guess it's all about keeping

5:29

relevant and addressing current

5:31

needs. It's a real paradigm

5:34

shift in a lot of

5:36

ways for us, and where

5:38

we were really strictly focused

5:41

on navigation before, I mean,

5:43

now we're, while it's still

5:45

really a core... It's

5:47

one of our core

5:49

businesses here, for lack

5:51

of a better term.

5:54

We are counting on,

5:56

we work with weather

5:58

organizations, we're working with

6:00

environment. environmental organization. So,

6:02

you know, we need to

6:05

be sure that this navigation

6:07

data is both available to

6:09

them and that we can

6:12

use their information with

6:14

an entop of navigation

6:16

layers. One of our big

6:18

standard initiatives moving

6:21

forward will be on

6:23

marine protected areas. So

6:25

these are really critical

6:27

for for mariners knowing where

6:29

they can go and

6:32

the rules change when

6:34

you're in a protected

6:36

in or near a

6:38

protected area. And certainly

6:40

it's going to be

6:42

critical for countries when

6:45

they're discussing how to

6:47

draw the boundaries and

6:50

know where protected

6:52

areas need to be

6:54

enforced or agreed upon. You

6:56

need to be speaking the

6:58

same language with the, you

7:00

know, both in an international

7:02

zone and with the country,

7:04

an adjacent country, so you

7:06

can talk about it in

7:08

the same way. Yes, so

7:11

the IHR is adding all

7:13

these data layers to its

7:15

ocean mapping and drawing in

7:17

data from a wealth of

7:19

sources. One of those sources

7:22

will be the work

7:24

being done in Italy.

7:26

which will seek to

7:28

map its sea-grass meadows.

7:30

This is part of

7:33

a broader Italian effort

7:35

to map environmental resources

7:37

across its waters. So,

7:39

Jordan, can you tell

7:42

us what this initiative

7:44

is and what drove

7:46

Italy to initiate the

7:48

large-scale ecosystem restoration

7:51

project? Yes, thank

7:53

you John. has

7:55

a huge extension

7:57

of marine waters.

8:00

and the coastline because

8:02

we have more than

8:04

7,500 kilometers of coastline

8:06

and so we have

8:08

at the mariner ecosystem

8:11

setting a high priority

8:13

because we need to

8:15

protect biodiversity and these

8:17

huge extension for a

8:20

country that is basically

8:22

center in the Mediterranean

8:24

Sea so it's a

8:26

high priority. With our

8:29

project, this marine ecosystem

8:31

restoration, our aim is

8:33

to actually reverse the

8:35

trend of degradation that

8:37

we have in biodiversity

8:40

and so in the

8:42

loss of biodiversity. So

8:44

our project forces some

8:46

very important... action for

8:48

marine ecosystem restoration for

8:51

Posidonia Midos that actually

8:53

the sea grass that

8:55

is endemic in the

8:57

Mediterranean Sea and also

9:00

for oysters, flat oysters that

9:02

we actually try to restore

9:04

in the Adriatic Sea. But

9:06

of course it is not

9:09

possible to set this type

9:11

of restoration without a deep

9:13

knowledge of what is in

9:15

our coastline. And that's why

9:17

the mapping, an integral mapping

9:20

of our national coastline is

9:22

central in this regard. Yes,

9:24

these things generally start with

9:27

the big picture stuff, don't

9:29

they? Can you explain what

9:31

the main goals of this

9:33

project are? Well, actually, the

9:35

big goals is to

9:38

identify what are the

9:40

areas that are worth

9:42

of being protected, because

9:44

we have a global

9:46

biodiversity strategy that forces

9:48

that 30% of our

9:50

ocean are subjected to

9:52

protection. And the EU,

9:54

actually, on the top

9:56

of these, adds an

9:58

additional 10%. included in

10:01

the 30 % that should

10:03

be highly protected from

10:05

this type of pressure

10:07

that determines loss of

10:09

biodiversity. So the mapping

10:12

of the coastline and

10:14

also of offshore seamounts

10:16

is crucial in order

10:18

to have this type

10:20

of information and to

10:23

identify properly what are

10:25

the areas that are

10:27

to be included into

10:29

this 30 % and above

10:31

all the 10 %

10:33

that is actually the

10:36

more restriction are going

10:38

to be applied. 30%,

10:40

10%, what's dictating these numbers?

10:43

Is it that those

10:45

are just practical goals or

10:47

are those particular areas

10:49

of concern? What's

10:51

driving those numbers? Well, these

10:54

numbers, the 30 %

10:56

is actually drive by

10:58

the global strategy on

11:00

protection of biodiversity. What

11:02

is very important for

11:04

us is the 10

11:06

% because the 10 %

11:08

is where you actually

11:10

apply the more restricted

11:13

measures and this implies

11:15

that you cannot fish,

11:17

that actually you cannot

11:19

damage this type of

11:21

very high and vulnerable

11:23

marine ecosystem. So

11:25

you know, Italy is a

11:27

country where fishing, where tourism,

11:29

where maritime transport are really

11:32

central. So you have to

11:34

be very precise and very

11:36

accurate in identifying this 10

11:38

% in order that you

11:40

have a balance between what

11:42

is the necessity to protect

11:45

but also to sustain the

11:47

development of the blue economy

11:49

that is more and more

11:51

important for our country. Can

11:53

you give us some idea of the scale

11:56

of the project? How much

11:58

mapping are we talking about? Well

12:00

the scale of the project

12:02

is, I

12:05

would say, we have

12:07

no such inexperience in

12:09

the past, I mean

12:11

in the last 50

12:13

years. So an integral

12:15

mapping of the Italian

12:18

coastline to be realized

12:20

in only two years

12:22

as our project foresees

12:24

and with the abatometry

12:26

up to 50 meters

12:28

depth, this type of

12:31

integral mapping with the high resolution

12:33

that we are going to

12:35

have has never been done before,

12:37

first of all. So this means

12:39

that this huge amount of

12:41

data not only has to be

12:43

collected, it has to be

12:46

elaborated and it has to be

12:48

widespread to the stakeholders in

12:50

order that this information arrives where

12:52

it has to be. So

12:54

it means the policy makers

12:57

and decisions and so on

12:59

are going to be based

13:01

in the future on this

13:03

type of data collection and

13:05

mapping. But if we mean about

13:08

the scale in terms of spatial and

13:10

temporal coverage, so how

13:12

much we cover and in

13:14

the period that we

13:16

cover, it has no past

13:18

experience like this in

13:20

the last 50 years in

13:22

Italy. It's never been

13:24

done because with this mapping

13:26

you will have a

13:28

full coverage of these habitat,

13:30

marine habitat in the

13:32

coastal region and you will have

13:34

this mapping in only two

13:37

years. So this means that you

13:39

actually, you will actually have

13:41

an updated information. I just make

13:43

you an example. The last

13:45

mapping of seagrasses in Italy, it

13:47

is not an integral covering

13:49

of all the coastlines and

13:51

it has been realized in

13:53

30 years. So it means

13:56

that you have some mapping that are old

13:58

as 30 years and on. Some

14:00

others that are held

14:02

as 15 years, and

14:04

this has a very

14:06

difficult comparison problems. Okay, Marka,

14:08

let's bring you in at this

14:11

point. Why does technology

14:13

matter here? How does it

14:15

help Giordano's team to

14:17

collect and analyze the

14:19

high definition data they

14:21

need? Thanks John, great

14:23

question. I want to go

14:25

back just a second to

14:28

three pillars that Georgiano just

14:30

mentioned. So to reinforce the

14:32

message. So he is talking

14:35

about tight timeline, so about

14:37

two years. He also mentioned

14:39

about improvement in resolution and

14:42

accuracy. He also mentioned about

14:44

a pile of projects or

14:46

a pile of projects to

14:49

test. technologies and the integration

14:51

of those technologies to serve

14:54

the purpose. And indeed, so

14:56

thanks to all those information,

14:58

we then evaluated how we

15:01

can bring to scale a

15:03

project with such ambition. And

15:06

the integration of the advanced

15:08

technology is becoming therefore crucial

15:10

for a collection of these

15:13

high-resolution data-to-map the Italian coastline

15:15

in an accurate way. So

15:18

a combination of a remote-sensitive

15:20

technology like urban-lider topographic but

15:22

traumatic sensors, the use of

15:25

satellite sensor, the use of

15:27

vessel-based multi-b meccosounder to complement,

15:30

as Giordano mentioned before, to

15:32

the extent of the 50-meter.

15:34

as well as the in-situ

15:37

measurement that we can allow

15:39

using autonomous underwater technologies, the

15:41

integration of this is going

15:43

to play the major role

15:46

in the success of the

15:48

project. Obviously each of those

15:50

technology contributes in a new

15:52

unique way capabilities to the

15:54

project objective. If to go

15:56

into the detail to provide

15:58

a bit more information The

16:00

satellite sensor will offer

16:02

a broad high resolution

16:04

imagery that will be

16:06

essential for mapping large

16:08

area and also supporting

16:11

in the future the

16:13

administration in capturing changes

16:15

over time. Also for

16:17

us the satellite remote

16:19

sensing will offer planning

16:21

capability to better understand

16:23

where and how to

16:25

deploy Arbonne Lider technology.

16:27

The Arbon Lider technology

16:30

that use a green liser

16:32

will provide, and also red

16:34

liser, we provide coastal information

16:36

as well, shallow water depth

16:38

data. Moving into the

16:40

vessel-based multi-beam, as I

16:43

said, that will be used

16:45

to complement the butimetric lider.

16:47

going into deeper water, and

16:50

also will provide detailed

16:52

automatic maps that are

16:54

going to be crucial

16:56

for understanding the underwater

16:58

terrain and important marine

17:00

habitats. Those technologies are,

17:02

as I said, are integrated,

17:04

and the data will be

17:07

fused together to allow machine

17:09

learning and artificial intelligence to

17:11

process and classify the collected

17:14

data in an efficient way.

17:16

Remember, we only have two

17:18

years to complete the project

17:21

and to deliver a compelling

17:23

classification different layers that will

17:25

provide important information to the

17:27

administration. To make this even

17:30

more efficient, during the course

17:32

of the project, we will utilize

17:34

a live dashboard called Virgil that

17:37

will enable different teams to cooperate

17:39

and to engage together. And at

17:41

the end of the project, the

17:44

aim is to use this

17:46

Dutch... in a kind of a

17:48

digital twin that will be there

17:51

the repository where the baseline of

17:53

everything that Giordano mentioned is going

17:56

to be distributed and accessible to

17:58

everyone. So when you say digital

18:00

twin. This is

18:02

a visual representation of the marine

18:04

environment. It's a lot more

18:06

than a 3D map of the

18:08

ocean. Environmental data

18:11

is being layered on top. Why

18:14

is that integration

18:16

so important to mapping projects

18:18

like this? Absolutely. I

18:20

can probably answer part of

18:22

the question and Giordano

18:24

can chain in. Obviously the

18:27

project or the program

18:29

goes beyond creating a 3D

18:31

map. Within the course

18:33

of the project there will

18:35

be collection of extensive

18:37

environmental data. Just to mention,

18:39

live monitoring stations like

18:41

offshore buoys are going to

18:43

be set up together

18:45

weather data, ocean currents,

18:48

wave dynamics, and any

18:50

kind of water quality

18:52

parameter within the extent

18:54

of the Italian EEZ.

18:56

This comprehensive data collection

18:58

will help to understand

19:00

the ecological health of

19:02

the marine habitats and

19:04

obviously also the impact

19:06

of the climate change. The

19:09

way data is being used here

19:12

really is a model for

19:14

future marine mapping projects. But

19:16

we haven't really got to

19:18

grips with why it

19:20

is important to map Italy's

19:22

Posadonia meadows. Giordano, tell

19:25

us more about seagrass. Yes,

19:27

of course. We know

19:29

that these seagrass meadows

19:32

plays a really, really

19:34

important role in terms

19:36

of carbon storage. In

19:38

fact, we actually have

19:40

the emission trade budget

19:42

that is basically at

19:44

the moment based only

19:46

on plants that are

19:48

on the terrestrial zone

19:50

and area. And this,

19:53

of course, as you

19:55

can imagine, is something

19:57

that has an impact for a

19:59

country like Italy. because we have

20:01

such huge coastline with respect

20:04

to the terrestrial area. So

20:06

the actually the protection of

20:08

this type of sea grass

20:11

meters and also the extension

20:13

of these sea grass meters

20:16

is really crucial in order

20:18

to have an indication of

20:20

how much CO2 is

20:22

stored by these type

20:24

of appetites. And also

20:26

if we actually implement

20:29

action of restoration of

20:31

this type of habitat,

20:33

how much is gained

20:35

in term of carbon

20:37

storage. So probably is

20:39

something that we are

20:41

going to discover that

20:43

this type of restoration

20:45

of sea grass meters

20:47

is something that gives

20:49

you carbon storage protection

20:51

of coastline from erosions

20:53

and so also a

20:55

multiple. type of ecosystem

20:57

services and goods that

20:59

are very important for

21:01

us, but actually the

21:03

extension of meters is

21:05

crucial for the estimate

21:07

of budget of how

21:09

much CO2 is stored but

21:12

our seas. It's hard to

21:14

get one's mind around this

21:16

that what you're saying is

21:18

that these seagrasses, Mediterranean

21:21

tapeweed or Neptune

21:23

grass, are critical. when it

21:25

comes to carbon capture.

21:28

Can you put some numbers

21:30

on this so we can

21:32

really understand the benefits of

21:35

sea grass? Yes, of course.

21:37

We have some estimate. For

21:39

example, we know that there

21:42

is... something like a ratio

21:44

that is one to two.

21:47

It means that for one

21:49

kilometer square of cigarettes, it

21:51

actually stores an equivalent of

21:54

CO2 that you have in

21:56

half a kilometer squares for

21:58

a very high forest in

22:01

the territorial region. And this

22:03

is why, because the Cigras

22:05

Meadows is not... only the

22:07

leaves that you see on

22:10

the top of the middle,

22:12

but it also has whole

22:14

what is beyond that in

22:17

the sediment in terms of

22:19

the apparatus that captures the

22:21

nutrients and so on. So

22:23

the storage of the cigarettes

22:26

meters is much higher that

22:28

only is on the leaves.

22:30

You have only something that

22:33

you can... actually assimilate as

22:35

wood that is a hundred

22:37

the the suffrage the sediment.

22:40

I just make you some

22:42

estimate on these some examples.

22:45

for leaves of the Posidonia,

22:47

sigras meadows, that is about

22:49

one meter high, for example,

22:52

you have something that is

22:54

beyond the sediment of two,

22:57

three, four meters, and this

22:59

is called actually matte in

23:01

terms of technical terminology, but

23:03

you have to consider that

23:06

in terms of CO2 storage.

23:08

So it's not only the

23:10

meadows that you see as

23:12

the meadows that you are

23:14

on the terrestrial. area, but

23:17

is actually what is beyond

23:19

that, that is also

23:21

important from the CO2

23:23

storage point of view.

23:25

I get it. John, I want to

23:27

bring you in here. Italy

23:29

is the first country

23:31

taking on coastal mapping

23:34

at this scale. In what

23:36

ways can this project be

23:38

a model for similar

23:40

initiatives? Yeah, I mean, I

23:42

love the project because... First

23:44

of all, they're thinking big,

23:47

and I like the, I

23:49

think that, you know, doing

23:51

things, thinking big, being inclusive,

23:53

and I'm not even just

23:55

talking about a big area.

23:57

I'm talking about collaborating across.

24:00

ministries, I think eventually

24:02

working with neighbors, thinking

24:04

about this diversity of

24:06

thematic areas, that's really

24:08

important. And you know,

24:10

the, when you're thinking

24:13

about data collection and

24:15

then eventually making this

24:17

data available or the

24:19

accessibility of the data

24:21

will be critical, I think

24:24

that how that's handled are really,

24:26

we can learn a lot from

24:28

that. And the back to these

24:30

UN principles, being able to

24:33

share accessibility and

24:35

the sharing of data

24:37

is just as important

24:39

as ensuring that it's

24:42

interoperable with other data

24:44

sets. I think if we work

24:46

together, you know, and go for

24:48

these big projects and

24:50

big initiatives, we have the

24:52

potential for really meaningful. big

24:55

outcomes and I really like

24:57

that in this project. I

24:59

think that this is, I'm

25:01

excited about the environmental

25:04

aspect here and it's

25:06

a little bit different than

25:09

what we do on a

25:11

day-to-day basis at the IHO,

25:13

but it's certainly something that

25:15

we consider extremely important

25:18

and I think that

25:20

our data will be able to

25:22

support. the initiative here, our standards

25:25

will be able to support

25:27

this initiative, and vice versa.

25:29

I think that the data

25:31

collected should be able to

25:33

support mariners, life at sea

25:36

and safety, and it all

25:38

ties together. So we're protecting

25:40

lives and our environment all

25:42

at the same time. Are there

25:44

any other examples of data

25:47

from this project that can

25:49

help protect the wider...

25:51

Mediterranean coastline. Looking ahead,

25:53

what are the next steps

25:56

for Italy in terms

25:58

of implementing and scaling?

26:00

filling up its marine

26:02

restoration efforts. Actually,

26:04

this is for us, this

26:07

project has been a huge

26:09

boost in the marine ecosystem

26:12

restoration and mapping. But

26:14

of course, Hauerop is

26:16

not to hand this

26:18

initiative here. First of

26:20

all, because the restoration...

26:22

is subject to EU

26:24

regulation, so something that

26:26

has to be carried

26:28

on. And because we

26:30

have so much infrastructures

26:32

in the future to

26:34

build up in terms

26:36

of pipelines, wind offshore

26:38

farms and ports and

26:40

so on, actually the

26:42

mitigation and restoration of

26:45

this type of habitat

26:47

will be crucial and

26:50

fundamental. On the top of

26:52

these, the area and sites

26:54

where we actually have planned

26:56

the actual restoration is something

26:59

that is going to be

27:01

managed by our institute in

27:03

the future at least for

27:06

10 years. So this is

27:08

something that changes our roles,

27:10

not only to monitor, to

27:13

assess and to map, but

27:15

also to manage marine ecosystem

27:17

restoration areas. And we are

27:19

going to... actually to

27:22

carry on this type of

27:24

activity. And the mapping is

27:26

just at the moment a

27:29

mapping, but we have to

27:31

update this mapping to

27:33

monitor where it is

27:35

actually... foresees this type of

27:37

action in the future. So

27:39

this is an integral mapping

27:42

that gives, has a first,

27:44

very important, high resolution shot

27:46

of the situation, but we

27:48

are going to dip this

27:50

type of a monitoring and

27:53

mapping in the future in

27:55

some specific areas where we

27:57

are going to carry on

27:59

restoration. that is something that

28:01

will be up to date

28:03

and will be had to

28:06

be done in the future

28:08

if we want to revert

28:10

the trend of degradation of

28:12

our applicants. John, while

28:14

the project in Italy

28:17

is a national project,

28:19

it could have international

28:22

implications. What role do

28:24

international organizations, supporting complex

28:26

global projects like this?

28:29

I think the answer

28:31

for that may be

28:34

simple while putting it

28:36

into practice may be

28:38

quite complicated. So, you

28:41

know, we're a standards

28:43

body and we aim

28:46

to help collaboration around

28:48

the world and we

28:50

are a consultative. So

28:53

really... as an international body

28:55

we work we have a

28:57

hundred member states and we

28:59

certainly work beyond that quite

29:01

frequently but with our member

29:04

states we develop the standards

29:06

in in an agreed-upon fashion

29:08

and we really try to

29:10

make sure that everybody's on

29:12

the same page moving forward

29:15

in a very collaborative way

29:17

and really we want we

29:19

want to make sure that we want

29:21

to make sure that that

29:23

there is equal access to

29:26

data and that it

29:28

is usable by everyone

29:30

around the world. So

29:32

again, all the way

29:34

back to this informed

29:36

decision making, I think

29:38

that's kind of our,

29:41

the goal here, whether

29:43

you're talking about an

29:45

environmental impact assessment or

29:47

somebody who's navigating on

29:49

the surface of the

29:51

ocean. It's our role

29:53

as an international organization

29:55

to make sure that the

29:57

data is available and meaningful.

30:00

and make good

30:02

decisions. You

30:04

make it sound as if it's just

30:06

a straightforward process, but I

30:08

suspect you have a

30:11

few challenges. Would you like

30:13

to share a few with us? Sure,

30:16

well, I mean, of course,

30:18

not everybody agrees how

30:20

these things should unfold. And

30:23

really, you know, I

30:25

think fortunately a lot of

30:27

what we do is technical, but

30:30

politics never, you

30:32

cannot escape politics in

30:34

these discussions. And,

30:36

you know, from our

30:39

organizational perspective, I

30:41

won't say which is correct

30:43

or incorrect from a political

30:45

perspective, but I think we

30:47

really want to be able

30:49

to support a

30:51

world where we're using the

30:54

same, we're interpreting this

30:56

data in the same way

30:58

so you can have

31:00

a discussion about it. And

31:02

really the, you

31:05

know, back to the

31:08

example where you're talking about

31:10

marine protected areas, we're

31:12

gonna develop the standard for

31:14

a marine protected area and

31:16

how it could be

31:18

displayed, but our member states

31:20

and countries around the world are

31:22

gonna have to have the

31:25

discussion on where the boundaries are

31:27

drawn. So that's really the

31:29

huge challenge. And a lot of

31:31

that works its way into

31:33

the standards development, just

31:36

because of the type of

31:38

information you would include

31:40

in a marine protected area,

31:42

for example. So it

31:44

can get complicated very quickly.

31:47

It definitely makes for

31:49

some challenges

31:52

and keeps our

31:54

jobs interesting.

31:56

But I am

31:58

pretty, I'm

32:00

quite happy to

32:03

say that

32:05

our members The member

32:07

states generally really work in

32:09

the same direction to solve

32:11

problems and I think that

32:14

we all have very similar

32:16

goals in mind at least

32:18

that my experience with working

32:20

with the hydrographic community in

32:22

particular is it's quite positive.

32:25

Good. Let's look into the

32:27

future and hope that projects

32:29

like this become more common

32:31

around the world's coastlines. But

32:33

is it realistic to imagine

32:36

we could one day map

32:38

the world's oceans at the

32:40

level of detail that Jordano

32:42

has described? Are there areas

32:44

where we should focus our

32:47

efforts that we can then

32:49

draw wider conclusions from? Yes,

32:51

I think that it will

32:53

be possible to map the

32:55

ocean at this resolution in

32:58

the future. In my very

33:00

short... time in the field

33:02

of hydrography. You know, now

33:04

it's about between, it's a

33:07

little over 25 years. It's

33:09

been absolutely amazing how much

33:11

technology has advanced and how

33:13

much we're trying to do.

33:15

We have global projects that

33:18

are aiming to map the

33:20

ocean. Jebco, Seabed 2030 is

33:22

one of these projects. And

33:24

it's really a... I think

33:26

we'll see more of that.

33:29

We're in a really exciting

33:31

time for hydrography and ocean

33:33

mapping. There are many sort

33:35

of foundational level projects out

33:37

there. We talked a little

33:40

bit about the United Nations

33:42

IGIF. There's also the decade

33:44

of ocean science for sustainable

33:46

development under UNESCO. I just

33:48

mentioned CEDED 2030. and then

33:51

we're developing this host of

33:53

standards to support all of

33:55

these initiatives. And I think

33:57

in the end all of

33:59

these things will lead us

34:02

to a place where we'll

34:04

really be able to comprehensively

34:06

map the ocean. So I'm

34:08

quite positive in that regard

34:10

and think that we have

34:13

a real chance at getting

34:15

that done. Not tomorrow, but it

34:17

will be in, you know, we have

34:19

to talk think in terms of

34:21

years and probably decades,

34:23

but it will happen. One

34:25

step back from actually

34:28

what John just mentioned

34:30

and also a link

34:32

to what Giordano mentioned

34:35

before. Obviously, in my

34:37

opinion, holistically speaking, what

34:39

ISPR was able to

34:42

initiate and to deploy

34:44

for the mapping of

34:46

the ecosystem along the

34:49

Italian coastline, including islands.

34:51

is scalable to the

34:53

entire world. The obviously

34:56

different objectives, we are

34:58

looking here at the

35:00

seagrass meadows, but as

35:02

we mentioned before, coral

35:04

are not going to

35:06

be different. So in

35:08

my opinion, mapping effort

35:10

are crucial for several

35:12

reasons. And we already

35:14

touched base on that,

35:16

just to wrap up

35:18

our conservation and restoration

35:20

efforts, management and policy,

35:22

scientific research, and most

35:25

importantly, education and awareness. So

35:27

this is in my opinion

35:29

where we can learn from

35:31

the program that ISPR is

35:34

developing. and hopefully can be

35:36

scaled globally, serving different

35:38

objectives, but looking at

35:40

the technology, everything is

35:42

scalable, a different piece

35:45

with different technologies, but

35:47

this approach is my

35:49

opinion the correct one

35:51

to follow. And you're done,

35:53

if we end with you, can

35:55

I just stretch your thinking

35:58

to the rest of the world? Do

36:00

you see it as possible

36:02

to do the work you've

36:04

done around the world's coasts?

36:06

Well, I know

36:08

that there is a

36:10

saying for the Mediterranean Sea,

36:13

and the saying is this,

36:15

that if you want to imagine something

36:17

that is complex and

36:19

difficult to study, then you

36:22

start with a sea

36:24

that is in a temperate

36:26

region, that has two

36:28

access points, give it there

36:30

and Suez, that has

36:32

river flows inside, that has

36:34

a complex coastline, and

36:36

has evaporation, and

36:38

has also deep sea, but also

36:40

coastal sea, and you actually put

36:42

500 million people to live around

36:44

there, then you have a very

36:47

difficult sea to study, and this

36:49

sea is the Mediterranean Sea. Not

36:52

all the places in

36:55

the world are so

36:57

difficult in terms of

36:59

complexity as the Mediterranean

37:01

Sea, fortunately. So probably

37:03

you can have also

37:05

very important result and very

37:07

important tools that you

37:10

can put for decision

37:12

makers with not

37:14

so high resolution as

37:16

we need it, and

37:18

the resolution is something

37:21

that also impacts on

37:23

the coast, on the

37:25

timelines and so on. So

37:27

I think that for

37:30

many regions in the world

37:32

that are, I would

37:34

say, not so complex as

37:36

the Mediterranean Sea, these

37:39

tools and these instruments can

37:41

be applied and can

37:43

have a very high impact

37:45

on the decision makers. Thank

37:55

you so much for joining us today,

37:57

John, Jordana and my...

38:00

This project is an

38:03

incredible example of

38:05

how innovative technology

38:07

and international collaboration

38:09

can lead to

38:11

significant advancements in

38:13

marine conservation, from

38:15

mapping seagrass meadows

38:17

to addressing the

38:20

impacts of climate

38:22

change. not only

38:24

promises to protect

38:26

and restore its

38:28

coastal regions, but

38:30

also serves as

38:32

a model for similar

38:35

efforts worldwide, your insights

38:37

into the challenges and

38:39

potential of managing vast

38:42

amounts of ecological data,

38:44

underscore the transformative impact

38:46

that projects like this

38:49

can have, not just

38:51

on our environment, but

38:54

on our... understanding and

38:56

stewardship of marine ecosystems

38:58

globally. Thank

39:23

you for listening to this episode

39:25

of Engineering Matters introducing the Planet

39:28

Beyond podcast. We'll be back next

39:30

week with a new episode. To learn

39:32

more about Planet Beyond and to subscribe

39:34

to their feed, please check the show notes.