0:02

Hello and welcome to

0:04

Enlightened Empaths, your community

0:07

for the Spiritally Awaken,

0:09

where we discuss, explore,

0:11

and connect with fellow

0:13

Empaths, healers, intuitives, and

0:16

seekers. Hello Empaths. Today

0:18

we have a fantastic show for

0:20

you and a great guest to

0:22

introduce you to. We're going to

0:25

be talking about spiritual intelligence with

0:27

our guest. Yossi Amram, but before

0:29

we jump in, let us tell

0:32

you a little bit about his

0:34

background. Yossi began his leadership journey

0:36

in the Israeli military, where he

0:38

received numerous awards and garnered the

0:41

fastest promotion record in his regiment's

0:43

history. Despite these accomplishments, the military

0:45

chafed at his soul, eventually inspiring

0:48

his lifelong quest for more humane

0:50

approaches to leadership. After leaving the

0:52

military, he studied engineering at

0:54

MIT and earned an NBA

0:57

from Harvard, he then founded

0:59

and was CEO of two

1:01

tech startups, both of which

1:03

he led through successful IPOs.

1:05

But after a dark night

1:07

of the soul, he went

1:09

back to school for a

1:11

PhD in clinical psychology, ultimately

1:13

developing the first research-grounded theory

1:15

and validated measure of spiritual

1:17

intelligence. Working now as a

1:19

therapist and leadership coach, he's

1:21

passionate about teaching people about

1:23

spiritual intelligence, and he's the

1:25

author of spiritually intelligent leadership.

1:28

Thank you so much for

1:30

coming on the show today. Thank you,

1:32

Samantha for the kind words. Wow. We are

1:34

excited. Let's start off because

1:37

you know as empaths we

1:39

always hear that we have

1:41

a high EQ that we

1:43

have that we're very well

1:45

versed in emotional intelligence. How

1:47

is that different from spiritual

1:49

intelligence? Okay, that's a great question.

1:51

So there are parallels

1:54

between emotional intelligence and

1:56

spiritual intelligence as you're

1:58

touching on. Let's first

2:00

define emotional intelligence. Essentially

2:03

emotional intelligence is the

2:05

ability to draw on

2:08

emotional resources and information

2:10

to help manage emotions, our

2:13

own and others. So the

2:15

focus is what you would

2:17

call emotional information and resources.

2:20

So by analogy, spiritual intelligence

2:22

is the ability to draw

2:24

on spiritual resources. qualities and

2:26

embody them in daily life

2:29

to enhance functioning and well-being.

2:31

So he might say, well,

2:33

what are those spiritual qualities

2:36

and resources? So these are

2:38

the qualities that have been

2:40

hailed and celebrated by all

2:43

the world spiritual traditions for

2:45

thousands of years, things like

2:48

purpose, service, gratitude, trust, integrity,

2:50

humility, presence, and so on.

2:53

So these are... you

2:55

know in my research I

2:57

interviewed to come up with

2:59

this theory and and model

3:02

of spiritual intelligence I interviewed

3:04

71 teachers across all the

3:06

world's traditions including Buddhism Hinduism

3:09

Christianity Islam Judaism shamanism Taoism

3:11

and I made sure I

3:13

had at least four leaders

3:15

and teachers in that tradition

3:18

that were nominated by their

3:20

peers for walking the talk

3:22

and then What was exciting

3:25

was that regardless of their

3:27

cosmology and theology, whether they

3:29

believe, you know, Muhammad was the

3:31

final prophet or Jesus was the

3:33

Messiah or Moses is the one

3:36

who wrote the Torah and received

3:38

it from God on Mount Sinai

3:40

or Father Sky and Mother Earth,

3:42

which would be the shamanic. perspective

3:45

or whatever it is, the theology

3:47

and cosmology into language, what they

3:49

all universally agreed on is these

3:52

qualities, you might call them virtues.

3:54

And these have been celebrated

3:56

by these traditions for thousands

3:59

of years. well before modern

4:01

science. Now what's exciting these

4:03

days is that modern science

4:05

and psychology developed this field

4:07

of called positive psychology. Probably

4:09

you've heard of that. And

4:11

you know that was kind

4:13

of started by Marty Seligman

4:16

and he developed a measure

4:18

called character strength inventory or

4:20

values in action. And if

4:22

you look at the. 22

4:24

qualities that came through my

4:26

research of spiritual intelligence over

4:28

half of them mapped directly

4:31

to qualities in positive

4:33

psychology like hope and

4:35

trust and joy and

4:37

transcendence and so on.

4:39

So in my research

4:41

emotional intelligence and

4:44

spiritual intelligence show

4:46

small correlation. And if

4:48

you look at the

4:50

concepts, they both make

4:52

sense because emotional intelligence

4:54

involves self-awareness of your

4:56

emotions and regular self-regulation

4:58

of emotion. Now in

5:00

spiritual intelligence, we talk

5:02

about something slightly deeper

5:04

that covers emotions but self-knowledge.

5:07

the main dictum of the

5:09

spiritual path is starting from

5:12

Socrates and even before that

5:14

in India and you know

5:17

whatever was know thyself know

5:19

thyself so that means you

5:22

know your emotions which is

5:24

one level of the surface

5:27

of the ocean but when

5:29

you know thyself you know

5:32

yourself in the depth and

5:34

and the depth of the ocean

5:36

and so you know with emotional

5:38

intelligence you can do self regulation

5:40

you're angry and you're aware of

5:43

that so you don't act it

5:45

out right you don't throw shoes

5:47

at someone you don't curse them

5:49

you're not whatever so that's emotional

5:52

regulation with spiritual intelligence you have

5:54

deeper inner peace and equanimity so

5:56

you know you're sort of rooted

5:58

in that depth of the ocean

6:00

and at the surface there might

6:03

be waves. So in both cases

6:05

you're not acting it out

6:07

but with spiritual intelligence you

6:09

have something deeper of that

6:12

inner peace and equanimity. But

6:14

there is some small correlation

6:16

but in my research they

6:18

are distinct and each of

6:21

them makes a contribution to

6:23

to our well-being and in my research

6:25

around leadership and I can get

6:27

more nerdy. I want to pause.

6:29

No, that's a fantastic distinction.

6:31

I absolutely love this. I

6:33

love comparative religions and I'll often

6:35

say if you go back to

6:37

the original tenants of all the

6:40

religions are saying the same thing.

6:42

be kind, look out for each other,

6:44

do the right, I mean, we

6:46

know this, so that you have

6:48

research to support that is absolutely

6:50

lovely. And I know that with

6:52

emotional intelligence, there's often been, people

6:55

have considered, some people have more

6:57

of an innate ability or more

6:59

of a, just a generalized way

7:01

of relating to that. Do you

7:03

find the same thing with the spiritual

7:05

intelligence, or do you feel it

7:07

could be a learned behavior? Well, yes.

7:10

I'm just being a little

7:12

cheeky here. Yes. Next question.

7:15

Yes. Well, there is a biological component.

7:17

The person who developed this

7:20

whole theory of multiple intelligence

7:22

is Howard Gardner and Harvard.

7:24

And one of his things

7:26

is he defined intelligence a

7:28

set of capacities that have

7:31

positive outcomes within a cultural

7:33

context and values. But part

7:35

of it is that there

7:37

is a biological correlate to

7:40

it. And so if it's

7:42

just, you know, I'm a

7:44

good Chinese cook, you know,

7:46

it's like, okay, you wouldn't

7:49

call that an intelligence, just

7:51

I have a capacity. But

7:53

what makes something, intelligence is

7:55

that it's something deeper, more

7:57

universal and has a biological

7:59

correspondence. But they have discovered

8:01

that, you know, there is

8:03

something even called the

8:05

God gene, that certain people

8:08

have more of this position

8:10

to develop into a transcendent

8:13

dimension. And you know, there's

8:15

been a lot of studies

8:18

around the brains of meditators.

8:20

And so as you meditate

8:23

a lot... you know, your brain

8:25

pathways change, there's a deeper

8:27

connection in your corpus callosum

8:30

between your left brain and

8:32

your right brain and so

8:34

on. So some people are

8:36

born with certain structures and

8:39

I don't know exactly all

8:41

of it that have more

8:43

of a proclivity for developing

8:45

these capacities and you know,

8:48

and we have this thing

8:50

called temperament that might affect

8:52

our emotional intelligence and and

8:54

proclivity. I mean, some babies are

8:57

born, you know, less regulated

8:59

and more colloquy and some

9:02

people are more sensitive and

9:04

you guys are focused on

9:06

impacts. And I think some some

9:09

people have a lot more sensitivity

9:11

and which which is a you

9:13

know, double ed sword in a

9:16

way. I mean, it's a blessing

9:18

that we have that sensitivity, but

9:21

then it's hard to maintain our

9:23

boundaries and because we're so empathic,

9:25

we can lose ourselves and get

9:28

overly affected and we have difficulty.

9:30

So that's actually where if you're

9:32

an empath, there's some things. I

9:35

imagine, I mean, I don't know, you guys

9:37

educate me, why am I telling you about

9:39

this? Well, I think the hard thing about

9:41

being an empath is we feel like

9:44

we have to be there for everyone.

9:46

And when I listen to you talk

9:48

about spiritual intelligence, it does sound a

9:50

little bit more self-focused so that you

9:53

can really get to the heart of

9:55

who you are. What are some strategies

9:57

or tips that have worked for you?

10:00

you and your many clients

10:02

that have helped people remove

10:04

layers of societal or family

10:06

expectations and labels that are

10:08

holding them back. Yeah,

10:11

wow, that's an important huge issue

10:13

and and I also don't

10:16

just want to comment on

10:18

Yeah, so when you're empathic

10:20

you're focused on helping other

10:22

people and that's beautiful and

10:24

there's a lot of compassion

10:27

and empathy I Would not

10:29

necessarily say that if you're

10:31

spiritually developed or intelligent that

10:33

you're self-focused. So this is

10:35

the paradox. I mean, what

10:38

I talk about with spiritual

10:40

intelligence is interconnection, interconnection, and

10:42

ultra-connection. That means you know, connecting

10:44

to oneself at our depth. And

10:46

then, but when we do that,

10:49

we find that we share in

10:51

the same essence and sacred spark

10:53

of life with other people and

10:55

that connects us to other. And

10:58

then from there, we also connect

11:00

to the transcendent dimension. But

11:02

when you think about it,

11:04

in a relationship, let's just

11:06

say the romantic relationship or

11:08

any relationship, there's a

11:11

dance between the weakness. and

11:13

we have a urge to

11:15

to merge or to find

11:17

unity but we also want

11:20

to find autonomy and so

11:22

you know and so if

11:24

you talk about let's say

11:26

attachment theory with with with

11:29

infants when we have healthy

11:31

attachment we we know how

11:33

to be intimate but we

11:35

also know how to be

11:37

autonomous so I think the

11:40

trick is how to be

11:42

empathic and compassionate, but not

11:44

lose my ground, my anchor

11:47

and myself. So like as

11:49

a therapist or someone who

11:51

works with people in trauma,

11:54

if I am so impacted

11:56

by someone's trauma that I

11:58

lose my center. then I'm no

12:01

good for them. If they're

12:04

drowning, if I'm

12:06

jumping into the pool

12:08

and drowning with them,

12:10

I can't get them out

12:12

of the out of the pool.

12:15

So I think to create

12:17

it to position as well,

12:19

I'm either empathic

12:22

or self-grounded.

12:24

So I say again, yes, both.

12:26

I need to do both. But

12:29

in reality, part of the way

12:31

we're empathic is because

12:34

we're noticing what's happening

12:36

in us. We have our mirror

12:38

neurons, we have... you know, the

12:40

energetic, even physical, electromagnetic field,

12:43

when you put two people

12:45

in a room within six,

12:48

ten feet, your heart's electromagnetic

12:50

field affects mine. So that's

12:52

how I know, actually, I

12:55

have to be attuned to

12:57

myself to know what is happening

13:00

with you. And, but I

13:02

need to stay grounded and

13:04

centered, otherwise I can't really help

13:07

you. So true. By making sense?

13:09

Yes, you explain that beautifully.

13:11

You really did. And it, I love

13:13

that you weave the science in

13:16

with the conversation and with the

13:18

message. It's incredible. You've written

13:20

a lot about trust. You've

13:23

done a lot of work with trust

13:25

and I know that that's

13:27

connected with trauma, trauma bonding,

13:29

all the things that we've

13:31

learned over the years. I guess

13:33

my question is, how about

13:36

because many sensitive people, many

13:38

empaths, have a difficult time

13:40

with trust because they've been

13:43

hurt, they've been burned, they

13:45

struggle to learn to trust

13:47

themselves in situations because they

13:49

may have misread a situation,

13:52

how can someone learn to foster

13:54

and learn that trust if it

13:56

hasn't been a part of their

13:58

existence so far? Wow.

14:02

I mean, it's a great question.

14:04

I think it's a question.

14:06

I think it's a question.

14:08

So for me, I don't

14:10

think any of us are

14:12

completely done with the trust

14:14

equation. And so it's an

14:16

ongoing process. I will just

14:19

say this, you know, I

14:21

come from Israel and my

14:23

native language was Hebrew. What

14:25

is interesting is in the

14:27

Hebrew language, the word for

14:29

trust or sometimes translated as

14:31

faith. is called emuna. And

14:33

emuna shares root in Hebrew

14:36

with imun, which is practice,

14:38

which shares root with Oman,

14:41

which is artist. So what

14:43

this is trying to say,

14:46

and what I'm trying to

14:48

say, is the trust is

14:50

a practice in an art

14:53

form. And so. So I'll just

14:55

say that and then also that

14:57

there are many levels of trust

14:59

like do I trust myself? Do

15:01

I trust life? Do I trust

15:04

other people? Do I trust the

15:06

universe? You know, in life more

15:08

broadly. And some of us have

15:10

easier time with one dimension of

15:12

trust than others. There are people

15:14

that are very self-reliant, so to

15:16

speak, and they just trust themselves

15:18

and no one else. I mean,

15:21

that's in a way lack of

15:23

trust because it's lack of trust

15:25

of other people, and it limits

15:27

them. So... Anyway, I

15:29

love how in one of your articles

15:32

you wrote down that the

15:34

opposite of trusting in the

15:36

unexpected is trying to control

15:38

the uncontrollable. Yeah, yeah, so

15:40

when we don't have trust, then

15:43

we have to control. So just

15:45

going back to the person who

15:47

doesn't trust other people. in order

15:49

to manage their fear or anxiety

15:51

we have to control other people

15:53

and i see that all the

15:56

time in leadership positions or in

15:58

work environment people that have low

16:00

trust of others, you

16:02

know, become micromanagers and

16:05

don't delegate and don't

16:07

empower and they try

16:09

and control and that

16:12

doesn't bring out the

16:14

best in people. So, but, you

16:16

know, a lot of it, so as

16:18

you said, has to do

16:20

with our early upbringing from

16:23

the moment where come into

16:25

this life. are we welcomed

16:28

or we received and our

16:30

world is our primary caretakers

16:32

primarily the mothering person figure

16:35

and if they are there

16:37

for us and they can

16:39

nurse us and hold us

16:42

and you know then then

16:44

you know Eric Erickson is

16:47

this developmental psychologist talked about

16:49

the first stage is shame

16:51

versus trust. and then you

16:54

know later these theories have

16:56

been developed with attachment theory

16:58

and then people develop secure

17:00

attachment if someone is is

17:02

a tune and is there

17:04

for them and then but

17:07

over time they they learn

17:09

to differentiate and but they're

17:11

always have a safe home

17:13

base where you'll see a

17:15

two-year-old they'll wander away from

17:17

the parent the mothering figure

17:19

but they'll periodically look back to

17:22

see that home base is still

17:24

there. And so then they develop

17:26

trust in this secure attachment and

17:28

then that plays in their relationship.

17:30

So now when you don't have

17:32

it, what can you do? When

17:34

you didn't have secure attachment with

17:36

your parents, whatever you were born

17:38

into a... war zone and there

17:40

are a lot of trauma

17:43

from from day one and

17:45

for example I was in

17:47

my mom's pregnancy period when

17:49

Israel was going through a

17:51

war and my dad was

17:53

absent in my birth and

17:55

so you know I only

17:57

realized recently how that you know pre-verbal,

18:00

pre-births, and even transgenerational trauma

18:02

with my family being refugees

18:04

and the things they've suffered,

18:06

all of that affected my

18:09

nervous system and I wasn't

18:11

even aware of that till

18:13

some of the recent world

18:15

events. So I've had to

18:17

consciously work on that on

18:20

myself. So how can one

18:22

do that? I mean, the

18:24

first thing is If we didn't have

18:26

a secure attachment with a

18:28

parent, then we can try

18:30

and develop that with a

18:33

therapist or a trauma expert

18:35

and or a human partner,

18:37

a friend. And so there

18:39

is this thing called earned

18:41

secure attachment. And so, but

18:43

then he said, well, some

18:45

people don't have a partner,

18:47

they can't afford a therapist,

18:49

what can they do? So

18:51

there is actually now research

18:53

on... meditation practices where

18:56

you imagine having an attuned

18:58

parent. That doesn't know when

19:00

you're imagining something or you're

19:03

doing a visualization, whether or

19:05

not it's happening in real

19:07

time or whatever, as far

19:10

as the brain circuitry, it's

19:12

the same. So if you

19:14

just go through a meditation

19:16

practice where you imagine having

19:19

an attuned parent. that

19:21

starts to rewire your brain

19:23

and there's research about that.

19:25

So there are these attachment

19:27

meditation. We develop trust through

19:29

because we ask ourselves the question,

19:31

okay, I've had a lot of

19:33

difficulty in life, whatever it is,

19:35

but in this moment, am I

19:38

okay, am I safe? And then

19:40

you look around, there's this thing

19:42

called the orienting response, right? To

19:44

see that this is our orienting

19:46

response, right? This is our orienting

19:49

response, right? got a safe in

19:51

the jungle or whatever we were

19:53

come from and we look around

19:55

is there danger and we say

19:57

well right now in this moment

20:00

here now I am safe. And

20:02

then we say to ourselves,

20:05

you know, somehow I've lived

20:07

through whatever traumas I have

20:09

had and whatever challenges and

20:11

you know whether it was

20:13

a car accident or fire

20:15

I mean the people right

20:17

now in California I got

20:20

some clients who were from

20:22

there and they had traumas

20:24

their homes burned their their

20:26

neighbors homes burned whatever they're

20:28

really traumatized but you know

20:30

so it's in their nervous

20:32

system but you know our nervous

20:35

then you pause and you look around

20:37

you say I'm okay now and I

20:39

survived those situations. And so we

20:41

keep reminding ourselves and then as

20:44

we remind ourselves that we're okay

20:46

in this moment and we have

20:48

survived the past and whatever next

20:50

challenge we have in this moment

20:53

we lost a job we got

20:55

laid off we're going through a

20:57

divorce we got a medical diagnosis

21:00

I mean all the things that tend to

21:02

make us feel unsafe we can say

21:04

well I've had situations like that

21:07

and I've survived them. And

21:09

but this is where spiritual

21:11

intelligence comes in is that

21:14

basic trust that you know

21:16

Einstein said one of the

21:18

fundamental questions is do we

21:21

believe we live in a friendly

21:23

universe or not is it

21:25

is and if we have

21:27

that orientation then that's a

21:29

resource yeah I love this

21:32

because your book spiritually

21:34

intelligent leadership and I

21:36

really thought This is so desperately

21:38

needed on a global level right

21:40

now. I'm not making it political, I'm

21:42

not making it specific to any

21:44

part of the world or country

21:46

or demographic, but I love that

21:48

you put how to inspire by

21:50

being inspired and everything that

21:53

you're talking about feels like

21:55

it's reconnecting with that inspiration

21:57

within and fostering that through

21:59

trust. and growth and having

22:01

a purpose because it's great

22:03

to recognize it, but you

22:06

have to do something with it.

22:08

And could you talk a bit about

22:10

your book, please? Sure, well, so

22:12

I mean, you're kind of hit

22:15

on the key point is how

22:17

to inspire by being inspired.

22:19

So, you know, first leadership

22:21

is in it first and

22:23

foremost an inside job and you

22:26

can't lead anybody else until

22:28

and when you can lead

22:30

yourself. I mean, that seems kind

22:32

of to me pretty obvious

22:34

and you can't inspire anyone

22:37

until you are inspired yourself.

22:39

So how do we, and then what is

22:41

to inspire? I mean, I remember in

22:44

one of the first cases that my

22:46

Harvard Business School program was

22:48

managers and leaders. Are they the

22:50

same or different? And so what

22:52

is the difference between managers and

22:55

leaders in the workplace? A manager,

22:57

someone who makes decisions, allocates, resources,

23:00

etc. That's an important function. But

23:02

what the first thing they said,

23:04

what do leaders do? They inspire.

23:07

They energize. They motivate. They breathe.

23:09

a liveness and a purpose

23:11

and a vision and into

23:14

the organization and what is

23:16

the root word of inspire

23:18

it comes from spirit and

23:20

what is spirit the animating

23:22

breath of life right so um

23:24

so we have to connect with

23:26

our life force and and and

23:28

connect with our, you know, set

23:31

purpose. How do we get to

23:33

that? We connect to our unique

23:35

gifts. Like life gave us a

23:37

gift first and foremost life, but

23:40

each and every one of us

23:42

have our own gifts, talent, superpowers,

23:44

whether it's being empathic and sensitive

23:46

or better being. very mathematically oriented

23:49

and I can be a great

23:51

programmer or being having a great

23:53

sense of humor and I could

23:55

be a comedian or having you

23:58

know great musical talent and I

24:00

can be a musician. I mean,

24:02

each of us are born with

24:04

our own set of talents. And

24:07

naturally, life kind of gave it

24:09

to us because it wants us

24:11

to actualize it and share it

24:14

to contribute to the web of

24:16

life that we are embedded in.

24:18

So when we have those talents

24:20

and those gifts, it's like we

24:23

want to exercise them. And that's

24:25

the most rewarding and fulfilling thing.

24:27

And then when we use it

24:30

to contribute to other that that

24:32

is further so it's self actualization

24:34

and its meaning and its purpose

24:37

and it's it's the reward

24:39

of knowing that I'm helping others

24:41

which all the research shows is

24:43

much more fulfilling if you do

24:45

you give people $20 randomly and.

24:47

Of course, when you get your $20 in

24:50

a lottery kind of thing, you're happy for

24:52

a moment. But then if you take people

24:54

and you divide them and you say to

24:56

some of them, okay, go, go use the

24:59

$20, buy yourself a gift. Great. And then

25:01

the other people, they say, oh, take

25:03

your $20 winning and go use it

25:05

to help somebody else when buy somebody

25:07

lunch, buy them a gift. At the

25:10

end of the day, the people that

25:12

won the $20 dollars and spend it

25:14

on themselves, they had a momentary happiness

25:16

happiness. they have no lasting

25:18

impact. The people who were

25:21

told to take that $20 and

25:23

use it to help other people

25:25

hand a higher level of fulfillment

25:27

from their day compared to

25:29

the people who spend it

25:32

on themselves. So that tells

25:34

you that when we use

25:36

our gift, like you got

25:38

the $20, go use it

25:41

to help somebody. That's more

25:43

fulfilling than just what-unquote selfishly

25:46

for us. So as leaders, you know,

25:48

we got to find our purpose

25:50

and we want to use it

25:52

to to contribute and share and

25:54

sometimes our gifts come from our

25:57

traumas and our suffering the person

25:59

who suffer you know, domestic

26:01

violence goes off and

26:04

starts a center for

26:06

helping people who

26:08

are fleeing domestic

26:11

violence situations, whatever.

26:13

I've had my own

26:15

difficulties and might say traumas

26:18

in being a CEO and

26:20

part of my gift now

26:22

is to help other leaders

26:25

because I've lived through those

26:27

things. Yeah, that's so important

26:29

because you have to separate out

26:31

the expectations of being a leader

26:34

which we hear Just on the

26:36

news is all about the bottom

26:38

line and making money and bringing

26:40

in profit and then you add

26:42

spirituality to that It's it's not

26:44

super Accepted in our culture, and

26:47

I'm glad you're on the forefront

26:49

of that one of my friends

26:51

just started a job and the

26:53

CEO is so wonderful every year

26:55

at the beginning of the year

26:57

he sends out a letter explaining how

26:59

he used to be a workaholic and he

27:02

worked all the time and rarely saw his

27:04

family and then his wife was diagnosed with

27:06

cancer and he took time off to nurture

27:09

her and help her through that and she's

27:11

luckily fine and and is doing great but

27:13

he said it changed his whole life so

27:15

he insists that everybody will work remotely. either

27:18

Friday or Monday, so they could have more

27:20

time with their family. And I thought, wow,

27:22

like when I was coming into the workforce,

27:25

you would not have heard that from any

27:27

boss. And today, that does seem to be

27:29

more common. And so I think that's

27:31

a great trend that I think your

27:33

work is helping to inspire. Yeah, thank

27:35

you, thank you. And I'll just,

27:38

you know, elaborate on what you're

27:40

saying. There is that research that,

27:42

I mean, historically, I remember when

27:45

I went to Harvard for MBA,

27:47

I mean, the basic, the prevailing

27:49

theory was the corporations exist to

27:52

make money and maximize shareholder return.

27:54

Those are the ones who own

27:57

us. But since then, all the

27:59

research... shows that companies that take

28:01

a multi-stakeholder approach, meaning they cater

28:03

to their shareholders, yeah, we got

28:05

to produce profits and stock press

28:07

boat. part of our audience is

28:09

our employees and we got to

28:11

make sure they're fulfilled and we

28:13

part of our audience is our

28:15

customers we got to deliver value

28:17

and quality products for them and

28:19

part of our audience is the

28:21

community that we're embedded in and

28:23

the companies that think of the

28:25

benefits they accrue to all their

28:27

stakeholders actually end up producing higher

28:29

shareholder returns and the companies that say

28:32

oh we only exist to maximize shareholder

28:34

return so it's kind of paradoxical but

28:36

it shows you when you have a

28:39

win in mindset everybody benefits

28:41

instead of its shareholder versus

28:43

employees and we're gonna work

28:45

them as hard as we can

28:47

and pay them as little as

28:49

we can because we're trying to

28:51

maximize profit well then they're not

28:54

as creative you have higher turnover

28:56

you you know you have burnout

28:58

you have they don't produce them

29:00

and maybe that worked when everybody

29:02

was doing mechanical jobs on on an

29:04

assembly line, but those jobs more

29:07

and more are automated by robots

29:09

and more and more of what

29:11

we need human beings is to

29:13

be knowledge workers, to be creative

29:16

and you can't, you know, you can't

29:18

take someone and make them work

29:20

16 hours a day and they're

29:22

not going to be creative. If

29:24

they take breaks, all the researchers,

29:27

people to take breaks are end

29:29

up producing more. If someone works.

29:31

six hours in a row versus

29:33

someone who works 45 50 minutes

29:35

takes a 10 minute breaks for

29:38

and still six hour elapsed the

29:40

person who took the breaks produces

29:43

more output and better quality fewer

29:45

errors than someone who just tried

29:47

to cram the full six hours

29:50

so so the point and that's

29:52

especially true with with people

29:54

that or higher skilled people

29:56

and especially now that you're going

29:59

to get AI. And so what

30:01

with AI, more and more of

30:03

the things are going to get

30:05

automated and our thing is going

30:08

to be the unique creativity and

30:10

the human connection and in the

30:12

sense of community. And so one

30:14

other thought about the CEO story

30:17

that you have is it was

30:19

a beautiful example of you know

30:21

trust in a way and difficulty

30:23

into opportunity when you have trust

30:26

then you know his wife got

30:28

this cancer diagnosis and that was

30:30

terrible news but you know it

30:33

it turned around his life and

30:35

her life and now he's having

30:37

all this great positive impact so

30:39

there was a silver lining in

30:42

that terrible thing that happened not

30:44

that was a good but most

30:46

people when you ask him, you

30:48

know, to look back at some

30:51

of the terrible moments in their

30:53

lives, they find that something good

30:55

came out of it, like Mark

30:58

Dark Knight of the Soul you

31:00

mentioned, and it were, you know,

31:02

and then you didn't mention that

31:04

that led me actually into from

31:07

there into a spiritual awakening, which

31:09

threw me into a manic episode.

31:11

And because I didn't know how

31:13

to, it blew the circuits of

31:16

my mind, and I was a

31:18

CEO of a public company in

31:20

the midst of a manic episode,

31:23

and I had all these great

31:25

ideas, but I didn't know how

31:27

to manage my team and my

31:29

board, so they put me on

31:32

a leave of absence, they pushed

31:34

me, our stock price got cut

31:36

in half, it was terrible. I

31:38

lost my baby, it was my

31:41

lifelong dream. So it was terrible

31:43

trauma and painful But you know

31:45

that whole thing changed the direction

31:48

of my life and said that's

31:50

why I went back to study

31:52

psychology to understand myself to understand

31:54

was this spiritual awakening real or

31:57

delusional So something that looked terrible

31:59

and ended up being one of

32:01

the greatest blessings in gifts of

32:03

my life that put my life

32:06

on a much more rewarding meaningful

32:08

path. So just a personal example

32:10

of this thing of how something

32:13

that looks bad, terrible, whatever word

32:15

you want to use that ends

32:17

up being a

32:19

hidden blessing. And that's part of

32:21

this thing about we talked earlier

32:24

about trust. If we have this

32:26

basic trust in life when we

32:29

look back and we see all

32:31

these bad things that quote unquote

32:33

happen, the good things came out

32:36

of it. Then when the next

32:38

quote unquote bad thing or difficulty

32:40

or challenge arises, we say, okay,

32:43

I'm gonna survive this like I

32:45

have done everything else. And, you

32:48

know, this is not to be

32:50

a polyanish or to minimize or

32:52

do what's called spiritual bypassing no

32:55

you the difficulty is difficult I'm

32:57

not trying to say take it

32:59

away but when we have the

33:02

faith or the trust that things

33:04

will work out that gives us

33:06

the resilience to work through it

33:09

and and then when we have

33:11

the resilience to work through it

33:14

that increases the chances I'll come

33:16

through it, which increases my trust

33:18

and confidence in myself and in

33:21

life. So it's a positive feedback

33:23

system. If I have that trust,

33:25

I have that faith, it gives

33:28

me the resilience and the willingness

33:30

to go through the difficulty, which

33:33

increases the chances I'll come through

33:35

it, which increases my trust and

33:37

confidence in myself and in life

33:40

and in the universe, which then...

33:42

reinforces and deepens my resilience. And

33:44

it also gives you a level

33:47

of empathy, compassion, and understanding for

33:49

someone who is where you already

33:51

have been. So that you're going

33:54

through the difficulty. Right. Which is

33:56

fantastic. Do you feel like the

33:59

principles in your book? Because it

34:01

is written for spiritual leadership, but

34:03

reading through it, it feels like

34:06

it's as applicable to an individual

34:08

as it is to someone that's

34:10

in a leadership role. Do you

34:13

feel the same? Yeah, I'm glad

34:15

you're asking that. I made a

34:17

mental note to say that earlier,

34:20

but I forgot. So you're bringing

34:22

it up. So first of all,

34:25

I want to say that we're

34:27

all leaders. What is leaders? Someone

34:29

who influences people in a group

34:32

setting. So, you know, we're leaders

34:34

in our family, we're leaders in

34:36

our community, we're leaders in our

34:39

neighborhood. So that's first point. But

34:41

secondly, yeah, I've had a lot

34:44

of people, you know, I've had

34:46

some people like 18, 20 year

34:48

old that are just interested in

34:51

spiritual growth and they found it

34:53

helpful. Because yeah, the case studies

34:55

that I bring with each quality

34:58

in each chapter come from people

35:00

that are facing leadership. So, the

35:02

dilemmas or situations and they're primarily

35:05

my clients or CEOs, but the

35:07

issues are universal and, and the

35:10

tools and the exercises, so developing

35:12

spiritual intelligence like we're saying, it's

35:14

not like you read this book

35:17

and like, oh, okay, I got

35:19

it. You know, it's like, it's

35:21

like building new muscles, new neural

35:24

pathways in the brain. And, you

35:26

know, however many years we've lived

35:29

on this planet, 20, 30, 50,

35:31

60, reprogramming that is ongoing. So

35:33

it's building new habits. But each

35:36

chapter in the book has exercises

35:38

that's related to that quality. And

35:40

those exercises are not just for

35:43

people in formal leadership positions, but

35:45

anybody can benefit from it. So

35:47

yeah, I mean, I, oh. I

35:50

also really like your aim method.

35:52

Allow and include more. Can you

35:55

talk about that? Yeah, well, so

35:57

this is, this is like, um.

36:00

You know this is how it

36:02

actually relates a little

36:04

bit to trust which is

36:06

you know I may have

36:08

a situation I'm scared or

36:10

I'm angry or I'm sad

36:12

so-called negative emotions and most

36:14

of us are oh this

36:16

is negative. I want to turn

36:18

away from it because it doesn't

36:20

feel good or you know I'm

36:22

afraid that if I feel my

36:25

sadness I'm going to go into

36:27

a black hole of depression and

36:29

I'll never come out or if

36:31

I feel my anger I will

36:33

you know act out in a

36:35

violent way and then I'm going

36:37

to regret it or if I

36:39

feel my fear I'm going to

36:41

shrink and freeze or whatever So

36:43

then we have this dichotomy either

36:46

I go into it and I

36:48

get swallowed by it and it

36:50

overtakes me or I try

36:52

and ignore it and repress it.

36:54

And that's kind of the dichotomy

36:56

that most people think about. So

36:58

what the aim method is, is

37:01

it's the allow and then include

37:03

more. So the point is we

37:05

don't deny our anger or sadness

37:07

or fear. We feel it in the

37:10

body. And then we add include...

37:12

One thing I always like to

37:14

include is the Earth, Mother Earth,

37:16

because Mother Earth is always

37:18

supporting us on the one hand from

37:21

below, like the pressure, you know, like

37:23

we could feel it right now through

37:25

our feet, through the floors, through the

37:28

building, the house we're in. And on

37:30

the other hand, it's pulling us

37:32

in a loving embrace through the

37:34

force of gravity. So you can

37:37

think about it like a mother.

37:39

What does the mother do when

37:41

a baby is is upset?

37:43

She hugs them into her

37:45

chest and so pulling in

37:48

but also there's a pressure

37:50

of chest to chest heart

37:52

to heart skin to skin.

37:55

So there's this dual thing

37:57

of like the the pulling

37:59

in. but the support and the

38:01

earth is always doing that for us

38:03

when you think about it. I just

38:06

but so if I'm angry I feel

38:08

my anger my blood pressure is

38:10

high and that's pressure in

38:12

my head and my muscles are tensing

38:14

up. Okay I just notice it. and

38:16

I feel my feet on the ground

38:19

and the connection to mother earth both

38:21

the pressure on the feet as well

38:23

as the weight in my body the

38:25

force of gravity so I let the

38:28

earth support me in feeling my anger

38:30

and the best mothers what they do

38:32

is when a child is angry they

38:34

or sad they just hung them and

38:36

hold them and let them feel it

38:39

and then the child lends to self-regulate

38:41

so the earth is supporting us to

38:43

feel what we as we are where

38:46

we are So that's the first part

38:48

of include, and then you can

38:50

include more and more, and then

38:52

you're like, what else am I

38:55

experienced? Well, there's sounds, there's temperature

38:57

sensations of the wind, and then

38:59

when you put it all in context, it's

39:01

not, I didn't focus just on the

39:04

anger or the fear of the sadness,

39:06

this is a lot more happening. And so

39:08

without denying it, that opens up

39:10

our awareness, the aperture, and the

39:12

more we open. At some

39:14

point, we include everything

39:16

and then that's kind of like a

39:19

state of oneness, really. I mean,

39:21

it takes you to a spiritual

39:23

state of oneness. No, I love

39:25

that and I love the sense of

39:27

community that comes from doing

39:29

that and focusing on Mother

39:31

Earth and then, you know,

39:33

building it out through there.

39:35

Can you talk about some

39:37

of your community resources on

39:39

your website? Yeah, well, we

39:42

run these free community events

39:44

once once a month. We

39:46

take one of these qualities

39:48

of spiritual intelligence and and

39:50

we we gather and we

39:52

do either a little talk

39:54

a guided meditation and exercises

39:56

and small groups. So the

39:58

last one was Friday was

40:00

Valentine's Day we did it on

40:03

devotional love. I think the one

40:05

before that we did on openness

40:07

it was the beginning of the

40:10

year but the one before that

40:12

we did on gratitude. So you

40:14

know there are these qualities

40:17

and each month there is an

40:19

event and it's free and people

40:21

come and connect and and it's

40:23

a great it's a great resource

40:25

and they're all linked up there. So

40:28

if anyone's listening and they want to

40:30

check it out, they're all there. It's

40:32

not like, oh, well, you missed it

40:35

on Valentine's Day. They're all there, which

40:37

I love that you do that. Yeah,

40:39

so you can listen to the replay

40:41

and there's a YouTube channel awakening spiritual

40:44

intelligence. And we provide the exercises so

40:46

that if you weren't in the event,

40:48

you could do it in your own

40:50

with a friend or a partner or

40:52

with your journal or your tape recorder

40:55

or whatever voice memo. tape recorders

40:57

are dated. They're

40:59

still lurking around though,

41:02

people still have them. So I

41:04

say this a lot, but I

41:06

really really believe it in

41:09

my heart to be true that

41:11

we're all being called up

41:13

to come together in

41:15

unity as human beings.

41:17

And part of that is taking

41:19

care of each other and taking care

41:22

of the earth. And I truly believe

41:24

that in my soul. We signed up.

41:26

We'll come and help. This seems

41:28

like the epitome of your work,

41:30

that you're really allowing people to

41:33

show up as they are to realize

41:35

they can all take part in

41:37

this. So thank you. It's really,

41:39

really important work and very, very

41:42

appreciated. Yeah, no, it's great. So

41:44

just going back to the theme

41:46

we talked about earlier about the

41:48

self and the other and the

41:50

greater whole, I mean, the analogy

41:52

I think about is like cells

41:55

in the human body. So some

41:57

spiritual teaching say we're all

41:59

one. And I think that's true

42:01

at some level, but it's all

42:04

simplistic. We're also individuals. I mean,

42:06

in physics, there's the particle wave

42:08

duality. But anyway, I won't go

42:11

there necessarily. But when you think

42:13

about in our human body, there

42:15

are cells, right? And each cell

42:18

has a cell membrane, and it

42:20

has to keep... It has to

42:22

keep it integrity on its own

42:25

function as an immunity and all

42:27

this thing that the cell has

42:29

to take care of itself. But

42:32

each cell is also embedded in

42:34

organ and the organ is embedded

42:36

in in in in in a

42:39

bigger organism and so the cell

42:41

has to take care of itself

42:43

otherwise it withers and dies and

42:46

can't but it has a unique

42:48

function in role to play and

42:50

it has to if the organ

42:53

gets sick or the organism gets

42:55

toxic then the cell eventually is

42:57

going to wither away and die.

43:00

So it's a paradox or not

43:02

so much a paradox, it's just

43:04

so you have to do both.

43:07

You have to do the self-care

43:09

as an individual cell and you

43:11

have to understand that you're embedded

43:14

in this organism and unless the

43:16

organism... does well, then ultimately all

43:18

the cells are not going to

43:21

do so well. And when there

43:23

is environmental destruction, wars, political polarization,

43:25

all the stuff, I mean, I

43:28

can make all the money I

43:30

want and whatever, but I'm going

43:32

to feel the effect on that

43:35

and my children are going to

43:37

suffer the consequences of that. So,

43:39

so yeah, and what's interesting though,

43:42

just with the body analogy. These

43:44

all these cells that are differentiated

43:46

One cell becomes a liver cell

43:49

another one is a thyroid another

43:51

one is a kidney or whatever

43:53

it is But they all come

43:56

from the same DNA in the

43:58

same stem cell, but somehow they

44:00

all specialize. So you know spiritual

44:03

language, we might say, we're all

44:05

made in the image and likeness

44:07

of the divine of God, if

44:10

you use the Judeo-Christian tradition. So

44:12

we're all in essence the same,

44:14

but we are different. Well, I

44:17

mean, we're all the same and

44:19

we're all differentiated, like in the

44:21

human body. It's all the same

44:24

DNA, the same stem cells, but

44:26

we all have different roles. It's

44:28

the thumbprint theory that we all

44:31

have that unique little tiny spark

44:33

that makes us different than the

44:35

other 8 billion plus on the

44:38

planet. So we're together in humanity

44:40

as a species. We are species,

44:42

but we each have that little

44:44

tweak that just makes us that

44:47

our own specific connection to divine

44:49

in however it works for us.

44:51

And I think that I love

44:54

the body analogy. That's great. That's

44:56

a great way to visualize it.

44:58

Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah,

45:01

I love that too. Well, tell

45:03

people how they can find out

45:05

more about you and connect with

45:08

you and let us know what

45:10

you're working on next. They could

45:12

find out about me. I have

45:15

a website. It's yossi.com.net. It's just

45:17

my name. There's also a website

45:19

called awakening spiritual intelligence.org. This is

45:22

non-profit or awakening sci.org. Just. The

45:24

spiritual intelligence shortened to as I

45:26

There's a YouTube channel with that

45:29

long name at awakening spiritual intelligence

45:31

is one word But if they

45:33

go to my website or this

45:36

awakening si.org there's also links to

45:38

you know a free assessment that

45:40

people can get a profile of

45:43

your strengths and this isn't to

45:45

get the ego engaged in terms

45:47

of how you compare whether my

45:50

spiritual intelligence is higher than others

45:52

but more to see for each

45:54

person you talked about a thumbprint

45:57

we have a profile for some

45:59

people gratitude is really well developed

46:01

and other people mindfulness other people

46:04

they have a great sense of

46:06

purpose but you know they lack

46:08

in not so much joy or

46:11

beauty or you know whatever so

46:13

it's good to see what are

46:15

my strengths and then where are

46:18

my opportunities to to grow and

46:20

which which of these qualities that

46:22

I want to work on and

46:25

there are tips for working with

46:27

each of those qualities. So anyway,

46:29

I'm just throwing out a bunch

46:32

of resources. That's fantastic. Are

46:34

you working on a new

46:36

book or a new project? I

46:38

am. I am boy. I'm just

46:40

starting to, it's like I did

46:42

this research with leadership. I'm going

46:45

to do, I'm starting a research

46:47

with couples and seeing how spiritual

46:49

intelligence plays into

46:52

committed. relationships and

46:54

how it relates to

46:57

attachment theory and emotional

46:59

intelligence and explaining relational

47:01

satisfaction. I think that's

47:03

the other domain that most people,

47:05

you know, care about a lot and

47:07

challenges us and triggers

47:09

us and so on. So

47:12

someday, hopefully, I'll have a

47:14

book called Spiritual Intelligent Relationship

47:17

and it will parallel Spirit

47:19

Intelligent Intelligent. leadership. Oh, that'll

47:21

be fascinating. You'll have to come

47:24

back on when that comes out.

47:26

Okay. We're probably looking a number of

47:28

years out. Well, come on before then

47:30

and talk to us again, because

47:33

this has been great and very,

47:35

very inspiring. Thank you so much.

47:37

You'll see. We will put all

47:39

of your links into the show

47:42

notes. And we hope everyone listening

47:44

has enjoyed this and felt inspired

47:46

to remember the own spiritual intelligent

47:48

leadership that's existed within you. Please

47:51

remember as always to show up,

47:53

do great work, and share your

47:55

light. Take care.