0:01

Scott Payne spent nearly two decades working

0:03

undercover as a biker, a neo-Nazi, a

0:05

drug dealer, and a killer. But his

0:07

last big mission at the FBI was

0:09

the wildest of all. I have never

0:12

had to burn Bibles. I have never

0:14

had to burn an American flag, and

0:16

I damn sure was never with a

0:18

group of people that stole a goat

0:20

sacrificed in a pagan ritual and drank

0:22

his blood, and I did all that

0:24

in about three days with these guys.

0:26

Listen to Agent Pail Horse. The second

0:29

season of White Hot Hate Hate.

0:31

Available now. This is a

0:33

CBC podcast. FBI

0:35

Special Agent Scott

0:38

Payne went undercover

0:40

to infiltrate the most dangerous

0:42

gangs of our times,

0:44

outlaw bikers, drug cartels,

0:46

and an international neo-Nazi

0:48

network that wants to

0:50

start a race war.

0:53

I'm Michelle Shepard, and

0:55

in Agent Palehorse, the

0:57

second season of CBC's

0:59

White Hot Hate, you'll

1:01

hear an unvarnished view

1:03

of what it looks

1:05

like from the inside.

1:07

What's it like to

1:09

live a lie your

1:11

whole life in order

1:14

to expose a truth?

1:16

To join the KK1

1:18

month and then be

1:20

a hired hitman the

1:22

next? To become friends

1:24

with a biker, you're

1:26

trying to jail for

1:29

life. to almost lose

1:31

your job, your marriage,

1:33

and your mind. After

1:35

a 28-year-long career, pretending

1:37

to be someone else,

1:40

Scott Payne is ready

1:42

to tell his own

1:45

story. Now, here's

1:47

the first episode

1:49

of Agent Palehorse.

1:54

Okay, so let me start

1:57

with the base all

1:59

right Let me introduce

2:02

you to Scott. He's

2:04

6 foot 4, 260,

2:06

likes cowboy boots and

2:08

Jack Daniels. And in

2:11

the summer of 2019,

2:13

he wanted to join

2:15

a group of white

2:17

supremacists. They called themselves

2:20

the base. And Scott

2:22

had already passed a

2:24

crucial phone interview. That

2:27

Saturday, they reached out to me

2:29

and said, hey, we'd like to

2:31

have you in the base. And

2:34

I said, awesome, I'd love to

2:36

be here. So he says, you're

2:38

going to be contacted by your

2:40

closest cell leader. And it turned

2:42

out that the closest cell leader

2:45

was a guy going by the

2:47

name of the militant Buddhist TMB.

2:49

And he was in Rome, Georgia.

2:51

Now we're not emailing. Now it's

2:54

not a voice phone call, now

2:56

I'm actually going to meet somebody.

2:58

So I drive, you know, it

3:00

might be a four hour drive

3:02

down to Rome, Georgia, and it's

3:05

kind of a rural area. It's

3:07

a small town. I was instructed

3:09

to pull into town. He even

3:11

told me what parking lot to

3:13

park in. In downtown Rome, there

3:16

is a statue of a Roman

3:18

wolf, oddly enough. And he said,

3:20

when you get there, take a

3:22

picture of that Roman wolf and

3:25

send it to me. So I'm

3:27

driving, I keep looping on these

3:29

streets and I see the Roman

3:31

wolf statue. I take a picture

3:33

of it and I send it

3:36

to TMB and I end up

3:38

parking on a pretty steep hill.

3:40

It is hot out, suffocating hot

3:42

August Georgian heat with a darkening

3:45

sky that looks pretty ominous. Scott

3:47

stands by his truck under a

3:49

tangle of power lines. and he

3:51

spots two figures coming up the

3:53

hill. And I see a guy

3:56

who's probably about six two, about

3:58

21 years old. Probably

4:00

about 220 pounds. I mean, it's

4:02

not a small guy. A little

4:05

frontby, maybe, not like super muscular.

4:07

Pretty thick glasses on. Mopish hair

4:09

pushed over to the side. I

4:12

don't remember him being dressed like

4:14

anything crazy, but the guy walking

4:16

with him, who I learn is

4:19

pestilence. He's wearing a tank top

4:21

of some black metal band. He

4:23

has on black BDU pants that

4:26

are bloused into his eight inch

4:28

combat boots, tactical boots. And his

4:31

head is shaved on the sides,

4:33

but his hair is long. Like

4:35

it's, I mean, a ponytail, probably

4:38

down the middle of his back,

4:40

right? So, no harm, no foul,

4:42

I get out. Hey, you know?

4:45

So I don't even know if

4:47

we shook hands. And T&B says

4:49

I need you to put your

4:52

phone and airplane mode. And

4:55

I'm like, okay. And I'm expecting

4:57

that, right? He pulls out this

5:00

thing that I've never seen. It

5:02

looks like some kind of Geiger

5:04

counter. I mean, it's got lights

5:06

all over at a triangle card

5:09

and I'm looking at going, hmm.

5:11

So he wants me, no big

5:13

deal, I'm fine. As TMB is

5:15

walking down towards the back of

5:18

my truck on the driver's side.

5:20

That thing he's holding his hand

5:22

starts making all kinds of racket

5:24

and I can see the lights

5:27

kind of jumping and I'm like

5:29

oh crowd I'm thinking to myself

5:31

He tells me to shut my

5:33

cell phone off and I'm like

5:35

does this thing pick up a

5:38

cell signal? And I'm thinking oh

5:40

man This is not good I

5:42

guess now is a good time

5:44

to tell you that Scott is

5:47

an undercover cop FBI special agent

5:49

Scott pain He's not wearing a

5:51

wire just in case he gets

5:53

padded down, but there is a

5:56

GPS tracker on his truck. So

5:58

when he says... good he means

6:00

holy shit this is not good

6:02

you know you get kind of

6:05

the fighter flight you know and

6:07

I'm like well it's definitely picking

6:09

up what's on my truck and

6:11

he's not even close yet and

6:13

it's picking it up I don't

6:16

realize I'm doing it really but

6:18

I'm already setting my right leg

6:20

back like almost fighter stance you

6:22

know not like bowing up but

6:25

I'm getting ready And

6:27

as he's getting toward the back

6:29

of the truck, Pestlin, it says,

6:32

and you think it's the power

6:34

lines. And TMB says, you know

6:36

what? I don't know. And he

6:38

walks over. So he starts walking

6:41

over the power lines, and that

6:43

thing goes nuts. And he's like,

6:45

shit, man. Yeah, it is picking

6:48

up the power lines. So he

6:50

tells me, hey, I need you

6:52

to follow us. We're going to

6:55

go somewhere else. Well, as I

6:57

get back in my truck in

6:59

my truck. I'm now calling the

7:02

cover team and I'm saying, hey,

7:04

you need to shut this tractor

7:06

off. But while I'm talking, I'm

7:08

actually like bringing my drink up

7:11

to my mouth because I don't

7:13

know if they're looking from their

7:15

car. I don't know if anybody

7:18

else is following me. I don't

7:20

know. I'm holding the phone down

7:22

in my lap and I'm talking

7:25

trying to not be so obvious.

7:27

They're probably armed and definitely paranoid

7:29

about their secrecy. So, that tracker.

7:31

And what the team tells me

7:34

is we're not sure if we

7:36

shut it off remotely, if we

7:38

can get it back on. And

7:41

I said, well, you need to

7:43

shut it off. Or it's going

7:45

to be probably the quickest undercover

7:48

meat I've ever had. So I'm

7:50

following. And he pulls into this

7:52

parking lot of what appears to

7:55

be an abandoned, or at least

7:57

nobody's working while we're there, concrete

7:59

plant. I just kind

8:01

of giggled and I'm like,

8:03

yeah, empty concrete plan. I

8:06

mean, and what movies has

8:08

nobody died at the empty

8:10

concrete play? All the action

8:12

movies I've seen. Scott gets

8:14

out of the truck and

8:16

stands arms out, so TMB

8:18

can use his whatever wand

8:20

thing to search him again.

8:23

And it starts to rain,

8:25

like the heavens open up

8:27

in a southern monsoon. Perfect

8:29

pathetic fallacy for this Hollywood

8:31

drama. Scott is trying to

8:33

look nonchalant, but his heart

8:35

is beating louder than the

8:37

rain. If he needs backup,

8:40

he knows the team doesn't

8:42

have eyes on him. TMB

8:44

moves towards the truck. Like

8:46

they said they shut it

8:48

off, but what if remotely

8:50

it didn't shut off, right?

8:52

There's all these what-ifs going

8:54

through your mind. And he

8:57

goes past the truck. We

8:59

get back in and

9:02

now I follow him

9:04

in pestilence. I hung

9:06

out and got the

9:08

normal little bit, had

9:10

a couple of drinks,

9:12

and after passing the

9:14

face-to-face meat, I am

9:17

now gifted with a

9:19

black bala clava, which

9:21

was the signature for

9:23

the base members, and

9:25

I'm afforded a patch

9:27

with the three rooms

9:30

on, which was the

9:32

base symbol. So I

9:34

go back... that not

9:36

to my hotel room.

9:38

And I meet with

9:40

one of the case

9:43

agents who flew down

9:45

to Georgia, because this

9:47

case is bigger than

9:49

Georgia. It's all over

9:51

the nation and the

9:53

world. And he took

9:55

a picture of me.

9:58

I put my bolic

10:00

lava on and I

10:02

put the patch right

10:04

on my mouth and

10:06

there's a picture of

10:08

me like in a

10:11

red Harley Davidson shirt

10:13

with two thumbs that

10:15

we're going. I'm in.

10:17

I'm in. I'm Michelle.

10:19

Agent Pail Horse If

10:21

you listened to the

10:24

first season of White

10:26

Hot Hate, We began

10:28

that season with another

10:30

infiltrator. Voice member. Don't

10:32

try and get up

10:34

everything I can remember.

10:37

Caught my head. Something

10:39

just ended and I

10:41

didn't record it. His

10:43

name is Patrick. He's

10:45

about five and ten.

10:47

Grew up in the

10:49

country. He used to

10:52

live in Winnipeg. That's

10:54

Ryan Thorpe, who was

10:56

a reporter with the

10:58

Winnipeg Free Press newspaper.

11:00

In 2019, someone in

11:02

his city had been

11:05

putting up flyers that

11:07

read, Save Your Race,

11:09

joined the base. So

11:11

he tried to find

11:13

out more. He filled

11:15

out the online forms,

11:18

passed a vetting call

11:20

with the group's leader,

11:22

and eventually met up

11:24

with the base's local

11:26

recruiter in a park.

11:28

recording onto his phone.

11:30

He granted with homophobic

11:33

and racist language. He's

11:35

anti-Semitic. He talked about

11:37

funding a race war.

11:39

He talked about demerailing

11:41

a train that we

11:43

were nearby, sabotaging a

11:46

train track. He is

11:48

a violent excuse. Hold

11:50

on. That violent... Streamist

11:52

was Patrick Matthews. He

11:54

was a reservist with

11:56

the Canadian Armed Forces,

11:59

a combat engineer who

12:01

was trained in the

12:03

use of explosives. Two

12:05

weeks after that meeting

12:07

in the park, Ryan

12:09

and his editors decided

12:11

to out Matthews in

12:14

front page reports. The

12:16

story blew up, and

12:18

soon after Matthews disappeared.

12:21

American sheriffs along Manitoba's border say

12:23

they're on the lookout for a

12:25

bozier man with alleged ties to

12:27

a neo-nazi group. Former military reservist

12:29

Patrick Matthews has been missing for

12:31

more than a week. He packed

12:33

up his home in small town

12:36

Manitoba, gave away his four beloved

12:38

cats and fled. All police could

12:40

find was his red pickup truck

12:42

dumped near the US border. Matthews

12:44

was a hot topic among both

12:46

the Canadian and American feds. We've

12:48

got to find this guy who

12:51

has now been outed as Patrick

12:53

Matthews, because Ryan Thorpe, the journalist,

12:55

infiltrated him. Where's this guy? What

12:57

is he doing? But Matthews wasn't

12:59

Scott's main concern at the time.

13:01

After he'd successfully made it into

13:03

the base, he'd been busy hanging

13:06

out with the Georgia crew, building

13:08

a case. We're just trying to

13:10

infiltrate and graciate, trying to find

13:12

out if they're actually planning to

13:14

do something really bad or not.

13:16

All I know is I'm going

13:18

down to do another training. Me,

13:21

I don't know who's always going

13:23

to be there. He attends a

13:25

training camp at TMB's. TMB's is

13:27

the online moniker for the guy

13:29

who vetted Scott. He still lives

13:31

at home with his dad on

13:33

a sprawling rural property outside Rome,

13:36

Georgia. And that's where Scott, whose

13:38

alias was pale horse and the

13:40

other base members, shoot guns, share

13:42

tips on how to survive in

13:44

the woods, and prepare for the

13:46

race war they planned to spark.

13:49

I pull up to the barn

13:51

and I'm looking at the cars

13:54

and I'm going, okay, that's Helter

13:56

Skelter's car, that's Pescenant's car, that's

13:58

T&B's dad's truck, blah blah. I'm

14:00

like, there's an extra body. There's

14:03

not enough cars for it.

14:05

But I don't have my glasses on.

14:07

Great part of aging. So

14:09

I'm like, huh. And I go walking

14:12

up and I see this, I don't

14:14

know, mid-late 20s guy, reddish

14:16

hair, but it's all bushy and

14:18

a bushy beard. I walk up and

14:20

I'm thinking, I mean, maybe it's

14:22

any member of find out who

14:25

it is, what's going on. And

14:27

then he starts to speak.

14:29

That sounds Canadian.

14:31

Because, you know, I

14:33

mean, I grew up in

14:35

the 80s, right? That's a

14:38

big time. Strange Bruce, one

14:40

of my favorite movies. So,

14:42

you know. And I love

14:44

SCTV as well. But he

14:46

immediately pretty much tells me.

14:48

He's like, uh, how you

14:50

doing? I'm punished Snake. You

14:53

may or may not have heard

14:55

about me. It was

14:57

Patrick Matthews. Like, it was

14:59

an out of disguise while on

15:01

the lamb. And I'm like, oh

15:03

my goodness, he's here. He's here

15:06

in Georgia, but, you know, being

15:08

an undercover, I go, holy

15:10

shit, man, welcome to the

15:13

United States brother, and I

15:15

hug him. There's this huge

15:17

manhunt on for him.

15:20

Everybody's talking about it in

15:22

the FBI. All of a

15:24

sudden you roll up. And

15:26

you're like, holy shit. That's.

15:28

That's him. That's Matthews, like

15:30

what did you feel at that

15:32

moment? It had even been reported

15:35

in Congress. They had congressional

15:37

meetings where they're going, we now

15:39

know that there is a violent

15:42

white supremacist from Canada who's

15:44

somewhere in the United States, you

15:46

know, and I walk in and I go,

15:48

oh my gosh, what are the odds, you

15:50

know? Just Matthew's luck. He escaped the clutches

15:53

of Canadian authorities only to jump right

15:55

into the arms of the FBI.

15:57

And of course, as soon as I

15:59

I could, I let the case

16:02

team know and they're like,

16:04

what? And I'm like, yeah

16:06

man, he's here, it's awesome.

16:08

And now he's staying here.

16:10

So now for the next

16:12

whatever four months, every time

16:14

I go to training in

16:16

Georgia, I'm hanging out with

16:18

Pat. There's no limit to

16:20

how far criminals will go

16:22

to cover their tracks. But

16:24

investigators will go even further

16:26

to uncover the truth. I'm

16:28

Nancy Hicks, a senior crime

16:30

reporter for Global News. This

16:32

season on Crime Beat, I'll

16:34

take you from the crime

16:36

scene to the courtroom and

16:38

inside some of Canada's most

16:40

high-profile cases and some you've

16:42

likely never heard of before.

16:44

Search for and listen to

16:46

Crime Beat on Spotify, Apple

16:48

Podcasts, Amazon Music, and wherever

16:50

you find your favorite podcasts.

16:59

Scott spends

17:01

months undercover

17:03

as pail

17:05

horse with

17:08

Patrick Matthews

17:10

and the

17:12

Georgia cell

17:14

training hiking

17:16

and listening

17:19

as they

17:21

discuss their

17:23

plans and

17:25

he's recording

17:27

everything. Eventually,

17:30

those long hours, they pay off.

17:32

Five months after Scott infiltrates the

17:35

base, Matthews is arrested, along with

17:37

six other members of the group,

17:39

in a dramatic takedown that makes

17:41

headlines around the world. And tonight,

17:44

the FBI crackdown continues on white

17:46

supremacist groups ahead of a pro-gun

17:48

rally next Monday in Richmond, Virginia.

17:50

The men weren't charged for being

17:52

racist. That's not illegal. Neither were

17:55

they charged for domestic terrorism, which

17:57

isn't a federal offense. But they

17:59

were indicted for offenses ranging from

18:01

possessing and transporting firearms and conspiracy

18:04

to murder. Well today, three suspected

18:06

members of a neo-Nazi group were

18:08

arrested in Georgia charged with targeting

18:10

left-wing activists. The case against them

18:13

was so strong, the evidence so

18:15

damning, everyone pleaded out. And they

18:17

were handed sentences ranging from six

18:19

years to as long as 20.

18:21

When we were researching these cases

18:24

for the last season, we kept

18:26

coming across evidence provided by the

18:28

UCE. That stands for the FBI

18:30

undercover employee. That UCE came up

18:33

so often, we started to imagine

18:35

that we knew him. He had

18:37

recorded hours of conversations between Matthews

18:39

and his co-defendants as they talked

18:42

about shooting cops and massacring black

18:44

people. When TMB and another base

18:46

member took a road trip to

18:48

case the house where their targets

18:51

lived, the UCE was behind the

18:53

wheel. And then we heard his

18:55

voice on the secretly recorded tape

18:57

when it was presented in court.

18:59

Low, gravelly, and southern. So it's

19:02

funny to me, because I've been

19:04

watching, you know, your post and

19:06

stuff, and I know you guys

19:08

have been gearing up to this

19:11

thing, and I want to talk

19:13

to see what the hell's going

19:15

on. But... He was an FBI

19:17

undercover. There's a reason we couldn't

19:20

put a name or a face

19:22

to the voice. I'll call him

19:24

Scott, because that's what he said

19:26

his name was, but I'm sure

19:29

that's not his name. The most

19:31

of what we knew then about

19:33

the undercover agent actually came from

19:35

a man named Tom Lane. He

19:37

was probably 20 plus years older

19:40

than the rest of them, 62,

19:42

63, 240, you know, big man.

19:44

tattoos all over his arms. You

19:46

know, they all kind of looked

19:49

up to him, I think. Tom

19:51

was the father of TMB. real

19:53

name Luke Austin Lane. Luke had

19:55

established the basis so-called small man's

19:58

cell in Georgia and most of

20:00

their training took place at his

20:02

dad's hundred acre property which is

20:04

where I reached Tom for an

20:06

interview a few months after his

20:09

22 year old son had been

20:11

arrested. You know when I first

20:13

saw him I was thinking this

20:15

guy's either a pedophile or he's

20:18

a he's FBI. He's FBI. I

20:20

asked him. I said Scott, you

20:22

FBI. He said, no, no, man.

20:24

I don't remember exactly what he

20:27

said, but he denied it. And

20:29

I told Luke he was FBI.

20:31

And Luke said, no, we batted

20:33

him. We batted him. I don't

20:36

know how they went about their

20:38

vetting, but it wasn't good, evidently.

20:40

But why would you think he

20:42

would be FBI? I mean, why

20:44

would you think that there would

20:47

be an FBI guy hanging around?

20:49

Well, any time there's anything to

20:51

do with race. which I knew

20:53

whatever Luke was into was probably

20:56

racial, which I don't agree with

20:58

that, but they got their ears

21:00

out everywhere. The AD, anything that's

21:02

got a hint of racism, they're

21:05

gonna get in on it. You

21:07

know, they think that's the worst

21:09

thing in the world nowadays. I

21:11

knew from court documents that hint

21:14

of racism was Nazi propaganda, and

21:16

in particular, a flag hanging on

21:18

Luke's bedroom wall. Yeah, I mean

21:20

I saw the flag in there,

21:22

but you know kids that age

21:25

they're gonna they're gonna kind of

21:27

dabble in things and you know

21:29

they're trying still trying to find

21:31

out who they want to be.

21:34

Luke's been all over the place.

21:36

One time he wanted to go

21:38

move to Russia and then next

21:40

thing you know he's wanting to

21:43

move to Ukraine and fight the

21:45

Russians and he didn't know what

21:47

he wanted to do. He

21:50

was just a young boy,

21:52

you know, trying to find

21:54

his way, and, you know,

21:56

I figured he'd moved something

21:58

else. What was the actual

22:00

flag? Was it something identifiable?

22:02

I think it was a

22:04

Nazi flag. I think it

22:06

was a swastika. I think.

22:08

I don't know what it

22:10

was, they tried. It was

22:12

a big red flag. So

22:14

when you saw it, you

22:16

didn't recognize it as that

22:18

necessarily? Or you thought, okay,

22:20

he's going through a Nazi

22:22

phase? Well, yeah, I just

22:24

figured he was going through

22:26

a little phase. When we

22:28

first met, I said I'd

22:30

heard that podcast and I

22:32

was cussing at the computer

22:34

while it was going on

22:36

and I'm like, that dude

22:38

is lying. Okay. That's the

22:40

crazy thing. All the time

22:42

we were reporting and wondering

22:45

about this Scott, he was

22:47

listening, wanting to talk to

22:49

us. Yeah, so he knew

22:51

it was a nasty flag.

22:53

I mean, I said, I've

22:55

said on the porch of

22:57

that guy and drank. You

22:59

know, I drank his alcohol,

23:01

he drank mine He's listened

23:03

to pestilence My educated opinion

23:05

He's saying that because he's

23:07

on a call. He didn't

23:09

want to he didn't want

23:11

to tie himself to anything

23:13

to Ferris He names exactly

23:15

what a swastika is. He

23:17

knows exactly Now to think

23:19

that your kids going through

23:21

a phase to find out

23:23

what's what? Okay, how long

23:25

do you want to face

23:27

the last? Two years four

23:29

years? Six years? What's a

23:31

phase? But you know, Tom

23:33

Lane, making excuses for his

23:35

son, didn't really surprise Scott.

23:37

In law enforcement, I have

23:39

really, really seen a parent's

23:41

love. What I mean by

23:43

that is, I can show

23:45

you a video of your

23:47

kid doing crime on camera.

23:49

Their voice them the parent

23:51

will still say that's not

23:53

my kid. I still love

23:55

my kid and that

23:58

That's what parents

24:00

do. What

24:03

Scott says he doesn't have time

24:05

for are accusations of entrapment, which

24:07

seemed to be Tom Lane's explanation

24:09

at the time for why his

24:11

son was sitting in jail awaiting

24:13

trial. I

24:16

feel like the FBI implant

24:18

kind of led them in

24:20

that direction. Certainly

24:22

he didn't do anything to

24:24

deter it. You know these these

24:26

were young guys like 19 -20

24:28

years old and I think

24:31

they pretty much just took advantage

24:33

of their youth. You

24:36

know I don't know that the

24:38

base wasn't created by the FBI.

24:40

You know I don't much trust

24:42

anything they do. The

24:46

reason that we got involved

24:48

is because of the crazy

24:50

stuff that was being posted.

24:53

All I know is people

24:55

that go online covert for

24:57

the FBI were talking about

24:59

this guy TNB. They're like

25:01

this guy is I mean

25:04

saying some crazy stuff that

25:06

was before me. That was

25:08

before that's what put him

25:10

on the radar. And

25:13

the court documents make it clear that

25:15

Luke Lane was an active recruiter. It

25:17

ebbs and flows. You might pick up

25:19

a new member and they do the

25:21

interview they pass they get the face

25:23

-to -face vetting and then they're down in

25:25

Georgia training with us. They're spewing hate

25:27

and pro -Hitler and all this stuff

25:30

and then they get off on these

25:32

tangents of giant Agarthans living in Middle

25:34

Earth with Hitler and they're coming back

25:36

one day and I'm just like I

25:38

need a drink. Maybe

25:41

I am too old to do this. In

25:47

the end that's exactly what

25:49

he decided. Although he was

25:51

only 50 undercover work takes

25:53

a toll. So Scott turned

25:55

in the badge in the

25:57

summer of 2021. He could

25:59

have ridden off into retirement

26:01

on his hard with his wife on

26:03

the back, belting out some country tunes, and sipping whiskey

26:05

and obscurity. And I probably

26:08

would have never known who

26:10

the UCE was, or thought of him

26:12

again. But then, he decided

26:14

to talk to Rolling Stone. He

26:17

wasn't allowed to tell his

26:19

story until the day after

26:21

he retired, so he had

26:23

reached out. That's Paul Soliterov,

26:25

a staff contributor at

26:27

Rolling Stone magazine. He wrote

26:30

a profile on Scott that

26:32

cast him as the most

26:34

storied FBI agent since Joe Pistone,

26:37

aka Donnie Brasco. I

26:39

didn't set out to write about

26:41

Scott. I set out to write

26:43

about the kids he was chasing.

26:45

But once he started talking,

26:47

it turned into a profile

26:50

of Scott. How did that happen?

26:52

He left me no

26:54

choice. You know, the

26:56

force of Scott's personality

26:59

and... the force of

27:01

his persona, right? He

27:03

just has this extraordinary

27:05

ability to make himself

27:07

the center of every

27:09

room he walks into

27:11

and I challenge anyone

27:14

who meets God to

27:16

write about something on

27:18

the margins after you've

27:20

met that guy. Shall I

27:22

just start? Paul is

27:25

an incredibly vivid

27:27

writer. He's been lifting all

27:29

his life and has the

27:31

setup to prove it mailbox

27:34

quads and meat plow arms

27:36

that dispose him to sleeveless

27:38

teas In his piece Scott comes

27:40

off as a type of

27:42

superhero who not only took

27:44

down the base But in

27:46

his 28 years in law

27:49

enforcement, also managed to infiltrate

27:51

the KKK and biker gangs,

27:53

and put away aspiring killers,

27:55

opioid dealers, dirty cops, and

27:57

mass shooters. He knows better than

27:59

anyone. that it's later than we

28:01

think, and that each day brings

28:04

us closer to the next 9-11.

28:06

This one. After reading that article

28:08

and talking to Paul, I had

28:11

one thought. Bonus episode. Paul put

28:13

us in touch for an interview.

28:15

But before I knew it, I

28:18

was talking to Scott every week.

28:20

Hello. What's happening? Oh, not much,

28:22

not much. Chimps sitting outside today.

28:25

I see you there. Yeah, how

28:27

are you? How are you? How

28:29

are you? Good, man. I've been

28:31

doing a lot of outside stuff

28:34

myself with a daddy-doggy daycare and

28:36

watering plants and shit, and you

28:38

know. Long story short, I agreed

28:41

to write his memoir with him,

28:43

and our podcast bonus episode turned

28:45

into this series. I got to

28:48

confess, it's weird as a journalist

28:50

being on the inside with an

28:52

insider. I usually write about cops,

28:55

not with them. I'm an agnostic

28:57

feminist lefty Canadian. who spent most

28:59

of her career holding authority to

29:01

account. He's a devout Christian Republican-American

29:04

from the South who bleeds blue.

29:06

We definitely have our clashes and

29:08

agree to disagree on many subjects.

29:11

But where we come together is

29:13

trying to understand what drives groups

29:15

like the base. There are very

29:18

few people who have spent so

29:20

many years seeing that lack of

29:22

respect for human life up close,

29:25

witnessing that hate hate. The

29:29

time for words has ended, the

29:31

time for podcasts has ended. The

29:33

rails of fucking trains kill some

29:36

people and poison some water supplies.

29:38

You know, you can think of

29:40

them as like Tim McVeigh's children

29:43

or Tim McVeigh's little cousins. At

29:45

least 49 people have been killed

29:47

in two mosques in Christchurch. In

29:50

Charleston, South Carolina, nine people were

29:52

killed in a shooting at a

29:54

historic African-American church. The Associated Press

29:57

is reporting that at least... 10

29:59

people were killed in a shooting

30:01

at a supermarket. Buffalo, New York.

30:04

Eight people are dead after a

30:06

gunman opened fire at a shopping

30:08

mall in Texas. Scott's perspective is

30:11

one we rarely hear. Journalists report,

30:13

academics analyze and opine, lawyers debate

30:15

the law. You get more than

30:18

just a 30,000-foot view. I mean,

30:20

you're right there. You're not guessing.

30:22

But what does it look like

30:25

from the inside when far-right extremists

30:27

believe they're among a fellow believer?

30:29

This is what they said. This

30:32

is what they talked about. We

30:34

had a few drinks and they're

30:36

saying, hey, what would really be

30:39

cool is if we start killing

30:41

a bunch of people and you're

30:43

going, oh, okay, all right, well,

30:46

okay, that's different. When you're spending

30:48

your days and nights with violent

30:50

bikers for a year and a

30:53

year and a half, and some

30:55

of them become your friends. or

30:57

pretending to sling hillbilly heroin with

31:00

the pill mills of the deep

31:02

south. What does that do to

31:04

you as a person to always

31:07

be living a lie? You get

31:09

a up close and personal perspective.

31:11

That's coming up on Agent Palehorse.

31:14

It was a mistake about him

31:16

because he wasn't around him all

31:18

the time. I can't just walk

31:21

over there into a sea of

31:23

testosterone and leather and say, hey,

31:26

you guys ride? We've never killed

31:28

anyone yet, but we've had people

31:30

medevacked out by a helicopter. I'm

31:33

like, just get out of my

31:35

house. And he looked at me

31:37

and said, so I just vouch

31:40

for you. So don't fuck this

31:42

up. This

31:50

series was written and produced

31:52

by me Michelle Shepard Senior

31:54

producer Ashley Mac and producer

31:56

Eunice Kim mixing and sound

31:59

design by Evan Kelly Emily

32:01

Cannell is our digital producer.

32:03

Our intern was Rachel DeGasporus.

32:05

Special thanks to Andrew Friesen,

32:07

Lara Antinelli, the CBC Reference

32:09

Library, Ryan Thorpe, the Winnipeg

32:11

Free Press, Rolling Stone, and

32:13

Paul Soliteroff, Sean Powers, Orhalation

32:15

Studios, and Evolvement Music. Chris

32:17

Oak and Cecil Fernandez are

32:19

our executive producers. Tony Springer

32:21

is the senior manager and

32:23

RF Nourani, is the director

32:25

of CBC podcast. This series

32:27

was produced alongside a book

32:30

I wrote with Scott, code

32:32

name, Pale Horse, how I

32:34

went undercover to expose America's

32:36

Nazis. You can catch up

32:38

with season one of White

32:40

Hot Hate, wherever you get

32:42

your podcasts. And if you're

32:44

enjoying this series and want

32:46

to help new listeners discover

32:48

the show, please take some

32:50

time to give us a

32:52

rating and review on whichever

32:54

is your chosen app. It

32:56

really helps. That

32:59

was the first episode of

33:02

Agent Pale Horse. If you

33:04

like what you heard, episode

33:06

2 is waiting for you

33:09

right now. Find and follow

33:11

Agent Pale Horse on CBC's

33:14

White Hot Hate feed so

33:16

you don't miss an episode.

33:18

Just search for White Hot

33:21

Hate wherever you get your

33:23

podcasts.