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expedia.com/OneKeyCards. And basically, I had a bong

0:31

next to my bed. And I was

0:33

hitting the bong every morning. Wake and bake. That's

0:36

wake and bake. And the rest of the day was just,

0:38

I don't know what happened really. I had

0:40

a lot of girlfriends and a lot

0:42

of sex and I did a lot of drugs and

0:44

it was freezing cold and I said, this is terrible.

0:51

And now, Escaping the Drift, the show designed to get

0:53

you from where you are to where you want to

0:55

be. I'm John Gafford and I

0:57

have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop

0:59

their secrets to help you on a path

1:01

to greatness. So stop drifting along,

1:04

escape the drift, and it's time

1:06

to start right now. Back again, back

1:08

again for another episode of the

1:11

podcast like the opening says, man, get you from where

1:13

you are to where you want to be. And today,

1:17

in the studio, ladies and gentlemen, I

1:19

got somebody that's got a pretty

1:21

wild story, man. This guy dubbed

1:24

the bad boy of Wall Street at one

1:26

point. And no, it's not that wolfy dude.

1:28

It's another guy, a better

1:31

guy that built phenomenal companies,

1:34

took them public on

1:36

the London Stock Exchange, had

1:38

a little bit of a problem with the

1:40

government, but his back bigger than ever, star

1:43

of his own reality show, Facing Life. And

1:47

when you talk about facing life, this is a

1:49

dude that's got some life lessons we're going to

1:51

learn today. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program.

1:53

This is Ross Mandel. Ross.

1:56

What's shaking, Big John? How are you, buddy? What's

1:58

going on? got to say

2:01

before I came here today, I'm staying

2:04

at the Wynn Hotel in obviously

2:06

Las Vegas. And Donnie,

2:10

who booked me here today, made the

2:12

introduction. He said, why don't you watch

2:14

an episode of

2:17

John's podcast? And

2:19

I was tired, been very busy. I've been filming. I

2:21

did three days filming yesterday and one day. And

2:25

I lay on the bed. I

2:27

put you on and I got jazzed up.

2:30

I got energized. I said, I got energized, bro. I

2:32

said, this guy's got real energy. I loved it. Well,

2:34

thank you so much, man. I appreciate that. And now

2:36

that I'm here, you know, I was listening to you.

2:46

You're interviewing this guy. Just do it.

2:49

I'm six, five, I'm two 80. I played tight

2:51

end for Notre Dame. Oh, John's are. Yeah. John's

2:54

are a son. I mean,

2:56

you know, you must have been there. Now you're just as big. I'm

3:00

not as heavy. I'm as tall. You're much

3:02

leaner. I mean, you probably look like you're in shape.

3:04

Yeah, I try. I do what I get. Like I

3:06

told you when you came in, like I'm not winning

3:08

the battle anymore, but I don't feel like I'm losing

3:11

any ground. I like that. I'd like

3:13

to get all we could do is, you know, hold up position.

3:15

That's it. You just dig in and hold

3:17

the foxhole. That's what we're doing. Father time

3:20

is undefeated still. I'm still going to.

3:22

I mean, I'm still going to make a run out. I

3:24

live my life by the motto of Ricky Bobby from Talladega

3:26

Nights. And he says with the advancements in modern science and

3:28

technology, I don't see any reason I can't live to be

3:30

137, 107 years old. So

3:33

that's what I'm banking on as we go. He

3:35

looks at, ladies and gentlemen, if you haven't seen

3:37

this man in person, you owe it to yourself.

3:39

I'm a ravishing Adonis. That's how it works. It's

3:41

like a Ford supermodel. I'm not. I'm

3:44

not just saying that you speak my mind. See that it's

3:46

getting, we're going to start hugging and then people are

3:49

going to have to watch this sunlight. It's going to

3:51

get weird. It's going to get weird. Yes. We're

3:53

bromancing right now. We're going to be awesome for sure. Let's

3:55

get to you, dude. So obviously, man,

3:57

you don't, you don't just wake up one day and become a

4:00

the bad boy of wall

4:02

streets. But true. So I want to talk

4:04

about this man, because obviously you don't reach

4:07

those heights of early success without

4:10

some sort of catalyst to move you forward. And

4:12

I'm always a real big, I have

4:15

a huge interest in the kind of the

4:17

nature versus nurture idea, right? So do

4:20

you think that the way you were

4:22

raised, your upbringing, your experience as a

4:24

smaller human led to your desire

4:26

to build something great? Or do you think it was

4:28

just a natively born within you? You

4:30

know, it's a good question. I question that myself

4:32

a lot. I will credit my mom

4:35

who just recently passed away. She passed away in

4:37

July. And we had

4:39

a pretty rocky relationship

4:41

over the course of

4:43

our lives. And one

4:45

thing she did, I give her credit. She used

4:47

to say to me, you could be anything. You

4:51

could be anything in this world.

4:54

And you could be the president. Like

4:57

who would want to be the president? Obviously. But

5:00

you know, I had that in my upbringing. I

5:02

never really thought about it until recently. My

5:06

wife, Stephanie, was brought

5:08

up in the Bronx. She was the youngest of four

5:10

kids. She was the

5:12

princess of the family. Stunning,

5:14

gorgeous her whole life. She was born beautiful.

5:16

And she's always been prettiest and nicest or

5:18

whatever. Everywhere she's gone. But

5:21

her father was like, you better get married. You're

5:24

going to work in a deli. Don't

5:26

go to college. Really. He was a real Bronx

5:30

Italian, like off the boat type of guy. Girls

5:32

got married young and they took

5:35

care of the house and they had babies. And

5:37

that was that. Don't waste your time trying

5:39

to be something. And you

5:41

know, she ended up,

5:44

you know, I went to prison for nine

5:46

years and four months. I was in

5:48

federal custody. And the day I left for

5:51

prison, I left her and

5:53

my two daughters, 14 and 11. And

5:57

when I got out, they're both in their 20s. the

6:00

women and my wife

6:02

had to face life. And

6:08

she ended up building a tremendous little

6:10

business. She became

6:12

the Florida sea turtle lady, floristieturtles.com.

6:14

Okay, little plug for the wife. I

6:17

like that. Correct. She's in about 65

6:19

stores. She's got a big online

6:21

shop and she does this

6:23

eco warrior kind of thing where they clean

6:25

the beaches and they make sure the turtles

6:28

are okay. And

6:30

it's really like a marvelous, wonderful

6:32

thing. And they say that necessity

6:34

is the mother of invention.

6:39

That's the truth. You

6:41

know, we're faced with

6:44

sort of life or death, you

6:46

know, eat or go hungry, find

6:48

a way to eat. And

6:51

I was a good kid, very competitive, but

6:54

not super competitive. I was an athlete, but

6:56

I wasn't, you know, a six foot four,

6:59

Don is from North Florida, like my friend

7:01

Johnny over here. And

7:05

my father dropped dead suddenly at six, when I was

7:07

16 years old. Oh man. I

7:09

went from being number six academically,

7:12

my high school class, to

7:14

barely graduating. He only let

7:16

me graduate because they knew my father died. I basically stopped going

7:19

to school, started doing a lot

7:21

of drugs, smoking weed, taking

7:23

a lot of pills. Quaaludays

7:26

is the wolf of Wall Street.

7:29

I'd say glamorized a little bit. It was

7:31

every bit the truth and

7:34

drinking and just drugging and

7:36

using women and abusing

7:39

cars and abusing myself. And

7:43

I just was very angry for some

7:45

reason. Well, your father died. I think

7:47

that's pretty, a 16 year old kid that

7:50

probably idolized his father at that point. My best

7:52

friend, he was a good man to this day.

7:54

He's probably the most honest man that

7:57

I ever knew in my life. Yeah, I think being mad

7:59

at the world probably an appropriate God.

8:02

I like to say my story, I was

8:04

a God-fearing kid. And when my

8:06

father was taken away like that and my family was just

8:08

fucked, I just said, you know what,

8:11

fuck God, there's no God. I get to

8:13

be a God. And that's the

8:15

big argument I get from people that

8:17

I have friends who we get into these discussions and I

8:20

was in prison, well, you know, I was

8:22

framed, I didn't do anything wrong, I'm in jail, how could

8:24

there be a God? I had

8:26

a baby and she's autistic and

8:28

has to live in a home. She never did a

8:30

thing wrong in her life. Why is she, why is

8:32

my wife, why are we punished? So, you know, there's

8:34

all kinds of questions. So God

8:37

died when my father died. And

8:39

17 years later when I got

8:41

sober in rehab, I found

8:43

God again through the program, the 12 step programs.

8:45

Well, let's talk about this. So when

8:49

did you get into the Wall Street game?

8:51

Okay. So I go to college. So

8:53

you were still drinking, drugging, partying like crazy. I don't

8:56

remember college. I don't remember a day. How did you,

8:58

so- To get honest. They let you graduate. You somehow

9:00

got into college. I got into college and just so

9:02

you know, the way I graduated high school, I had

9:04

to take a summer school. I wasn't allowed to graduate

9:06

with my class. So

9:09

I couldn't go to graduation. I

9:11

had to take a course and read a couple of

9:13

books and write a big paper about

9:16

World War II and the use of the atomic bomb

9:18

on Hiroshima and I could suck, like an expert in

9:20

that field. It's something I really remember

9:22

from the last year in high

9:24

school. But I'm drinking. I'm drunk. I

9:27

don't know what's funny about that is

9:29

technically, technically speaking, I've

9:32

never said this on this show, but I'm gonna

9:34

say it now. Technically speaking, I did not have

9:37

enough credits to graduate from high school. I love

9:39

getting honest. Yeah, yeah. No, because my senior year

9:41

of high school, I played on our golf team

9:43

and the coach of our

9:45

golf team was also the guidance counselor. So

9:49

my senior year of high school, my schedule, if you had,

9:51

if you took team sports, if you played a team sport

9:53

with high school, you could go practice. So

9:56

I took my schedule. My senior year

9:58

was teams in which team sports had no. credits,

10:00

right? My senior schedule was

10:02

team sports, team sports, team

10:04

sports, team sports, AP

10:06

English, lunch, AP

10:09

calculus, team sports. That was my

10:12

schedule. Right? So I would just go play golf all

10:14

day and then come take two classes, go to lunch,

10:16

go play golf again, and then practice with a team.

10:18

And I was just doing that constantly. And at the

10:20

end of the year, my counselor

10:22

calls me down and he says, Hey, you don't have enough

10:25

credits to graduate. I was like,

10:27

well, dude, that's your

10:29

fault. You let me, you, you saw me

10:31

do this. You let me do this. You

10:33

helped me do this, whatever. And I don't

10:35

know what he did, but

10:37

I got to graduate with 23 and a half credits

10:41

from my school gaming the system

10:43

all these years later. I'm

10:45

happy to statute of limitations is probably fast, but,

10:47

uh, you're safe. We're getting, we're getting honest to

10:50

you and I love it. Well, I'm keeping it.

10:52

I'd keep it real cause my father also

10:54

did not graduate from high school. Wow. Later

10:56

became a judge. I mean, went

10:59

to law school, did everything else. And well he went,

11:01

yeah. Cause back then you could just, you know, he

11:03

never took the GED, but he just, with the credits,

11:05

he just, he went right into college, right? They didn't

11:07

require him to have a high school degree. And it

11:09

was funny as years later when he was judge, um,

11:14

like his 50th class reunion or some shit,

11:16

our small hometown, he wanted to go. So

11:18

he's like, would you guys give me an

11:21

honorary degree? And they're like, sure. Take the

11:23

G. They said, they said, take

11:25

the GED. Yes.

11:27

They want to take a GED to get high school. You

11:29

didn't do it. It's good to be

11:31

the judge, right? Yeah. It was so fun. I

11:33

was like, I have two college degrees and I'm

11:36

like, what's going on? Anyway, enough

11:38

about that. That's very funny. Yeah, it is

11:40

funny. Sorry. I'm entertaining myself right

11:42

now and I should be being entertained by you Ross.

11:44

I'm sorry. Let's go. No, no, I love it. This

11:46

is fantastic. Get back to you. So, you know, I

11:48

go to, I go to, uh, uh, SUNY at Albany

11:50

because I had a full scholarship because my academics from

11:53

grades nine, 10 and 11 was spectacular. I was

11:55

like number six in the class of the six

11:57

24 and my senior year was just

11:59

based. Basically, I got a pass because

12:02

I wrote that paper. Yeah. So

12:04

my transcripts, I had already applied to like a bunch

12:06

of schools early application and I was

12:08

accepted, went to University of Albany. And basically

12:10

I had a bong next to my bed

12:13

and I was hitting the bong every morning. Wake

12:15

and bake. That's wake and bake. And the rest

12:17

of the day was just, I don't know what

12:19

happened really. I had a lot of girlfriends and

12:22

had a lot of sex and I did a lot

12:24

of drugs and it was freezing cold. And I said,

12:26

this is terrible. What year is this? This is 1975.

12:30

September 75, that semester. All

12:32

right. And myself and

12:34

a bunch of kids, like sort of a

12:37

Long Island high school kids that wish to hang out

12:39

on Long Island, go to the city and all that.

12:42

We all decided to transfer to University

12:44

of Maryland, College Park. Okay. Which

12:46

I later believe I'm not an endowed, gave them half a

12:49

million dollars. And that's a

12:51

legacy I left there before

12:53

I went to prison, 2004. Okay.

12:56

You know. So it became a tarpon. So

12:58

I become a tarp, lefty dries out was

13:00

the coach. And you know,

13:03

we had some really famous athletes there

13:05

and Randy White, the big tip from

13:07

the Texas. Big 10, those Cowboys. Big

13:09

10 now. Yeah. Yeah. But

13:11

that was, it was, it was pretty cool. And the

13:14

drugging and drinking continued. And

13:16

I was like a cool kid. I like

13:18

a Camaro. I had

13:20

a wrestler's body. I used to wrestle in a

13:22

high school and I played football and all that.

13:25

And I was lean. And

13:28

I just didn't, I had this like, I

13:30

didn't give a fuck attitude. And something about

13:32

that makes you attractive to young people. When

13:35

you're older, you're a bum. You

13:37

know, but when you're a kid and you're not

13:39

bad looking and you have this attitude, you're

13:42

doing drugs, you're drinking, you become popular somehow.

13:45

I don't know. And I ran

13:47

with like a group of guys that

13:50

were basically not really interested in

13:52

school, who were interested in

13:54

throwing parties in the college. And I, and I heard

13:56

you share about that with the kid

13:58

from Notre Dame. Oh yeah. And I was also one

14:00

of those kids that, you know, we used to throw parties at

14:03

the hot clubs. That's the way to do it. It's freaking $20

14:05

to get in. Then we would sell them

14:07

quaaludes when not the way to, not the way to do it.

14:09

That part's not the way to do it. The very enterprise. But,

14:12

you know, don't do that, kids. People say to me,

14:14

so, you know, I

14:18

was basically drinking and drugging all the

14:20

time and it's expensive. It's

14:23

really an expensive hobby. And

14:25

the old you get in the fancy, you know, you talk about

14:27

bottle surfs and clubs, and I was one of those guys sitting

14:29

with him, $10,000 on the

14:31

floor at Marrakesh in the Hamptons. You know, this is

14:33

what we're talking to in 1980. And

14:37

one of those guys, best table VIP.

14:39

So I'm I'm using and

14:42

every dime I'm earning hustling, I'm

14:44

spending. And I hooked up

14:46

with a group of men, went to

14:48

graduate college. We all just went to sell something. That's

14:50

what guys like us do. It

14:54

doesn't. Didn't pass me

14:56

that you're selling real estate. Because guys like us sell

14:58

stuff. You sell. That's what we do. And

15:01

I was pretty good at selling because I love people. I

15:03

get it. You know, I can

15:06

hang pretty much with any crowd. And

15:10

but I need money. And so one day one of

15:12

my friends calls and says, listen, I want you to buy this stock.

15:15

I get a tip from my broker. Even

15:18

though we was talking about what some stock

15:20

for three and it went to eight. He

15:22

sold it and made money. We said, fuck

15:24

this. I'm going to Wall Street. Yeah. That's the best

15:27

job in the world. Right. And so, you know, we're

15:29

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15:31

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16:50

I don't think it's like that anymore.

16:53

But what do I know? Old as

16:55

fuck now, so

17:07

I look at it. We

17:11

would go to the studio 54, there'd be 10,000 people on

17:13

54th Street and they let a hundred people playing

17:16

the game with the velvet ropes. Sure. And

17:19

you'll finally, we'd get in and we'd say, you know, how

17:21

did you get in? How come you have, you pulled up

17:23

in a Lamborghini or a

17:26

Rolls Royce and you have this hot chick and you had the

17:28

best table. Like, if you don't mind me asking, why are you,

17:30

how do you get this? It wasn't a movie

17:32

star. It wasn't a face. I recognize. I

17:34

work on wall street. I'm a trader. I'm a

17:36

broker. Uh, you know, I do arbitrage.

17:38

I do leverage buyouts. So you went to wait,

17:41

you went to the EF Hutton training program. I

17:43

did. I did. So if you had to take,

17:45

cause cause that was probably back then, that was

17:47

almost a gold standard. It was. They went Merrill

17:49

Lynch. Yeah. My good friend over here

17:51

went to Merrill Lynch training. Yeah. But, but you look

17:53

at, you look at training programs, you know, for sales

17:55

and that was probably a gold standard. I mean, I

17:57

think spectacular. I think even today there's a. couple that

17:59

I would say, you know, I advise people to do

18:01

this. It was the advice I got years ago when

18:03

I got out of the bar and restaurant business and

18:06

got into sales. My buddy said, look, dude, at this point,

18:09

the easiest, fastest way to get a PhD in sales is

18:11

to go sell Kirby vacuum cleaners door to door, or

18:15

go or go sell Highline cars.

18:19

Either one of those things. Well yeah. Now I, now

18:21

I'd probably also say solar would probably be a good

18:23

thing to write. Cause some of those solar companies have

18:25

amazing training programs, but yeah, it was, it

18:27

was a great way. But back then that EF Hutton, you

18:30

know, gold standard training program. What was

18:32

the, if you had to pick one

18:35

thing that was a best thing that you learned out

18:37

of that training program, what would it have been? So

18:40

they're trying to teach you a certain way to sell. You

18:43

want to sound educated. You're talking about securities.

18:45

You calling people cold on the phone. You're

18:48

asking for, you know, orders of a hundred, $250,000 and you have

18:50

$1,500 DNA. And

18:54

so, you know, I learned

18:56

humility. I

18:59

learned humility. There were guys next to

19:01

me that looked like you six four

19:03

gorgeous. Doesn't matter on the phone, baby.

19:06

You know, many of you, many of you guys

19:08

sounded great. You sounded slick. So I'll

19:10

never forget. I started out in this training program, 130

19:13

people and we all had a big board

19:15

room and they put us on the phone. And when

19:17

you got a guy on the phone, a lead

19:20

pitch, you had to raise your hand. And you, everyone, everyone

19:22

is at a desk, a numbered desk. I was number eight.

19:25

And I go like this and the guy at the front

19:27

of the day, it's with senior brokers like 20 of them.

19:29

They'd see, I raised my hand. They

19:31

would go to the brain and they would listen in. So

19:34

the first time I made a co-core and the guy

19:36

answered, my hands were shaking so bad I hung

19:38

up. And

19:41

I'm looking around and all these people are raising their hands and they're

19:43

pitching and all this. And, uh, and

19:46

so then I dialed, I dialed, and then I got a guy answered

19:48

the phone and, uh, I hung

19:50

up the second time. My hands are shaking. But

19:53

meanwhile, everyone around me seems to be like on the

19:55

phone and everybody's attacking and feeling good. I'm like, I

19:58

mean, get your shit together, bro. Jumped at

20:00

myself talk. I mean come on just do it right.

20:03

I was scared of shit and a lot of people

20:05

say worse man That's good. What and

20:07

I was I confess it's the truth and it's something

20:09

everybody should know Nobody just has

20:11

the balls to get on the phone and be a star

20:13

and all these different things You got to go through it.

20:15

It's a callous God, I go

20:17

through it bro. You play golf. I'm never

20:20

played. I wanted to play golf one year

20:22

I'm with the golf school and

20:24

I go out there and I'm playing golf playing 1836 You

20:27

know 54 my hands are sore. I

20:29

got blisters and cowards is right. There's

20:32

no way around it Yeah,

20:34

I mean he'd buy golf clubs But I this

20:36

is if you want to play you play football

20:38

you're gonna have those aches and pains and the

20:40

saunas and all that Good stuff So

20:43

okay, so I go to this program and

20:45

I'm doing my thing and I

20:47

understand there's no one way To

20:49

be great at sales It's very

20:52

stylistic But there are certain certain basic

20:54

tenets and techniques that everybody should know

20:57

You could buy books and you can listen to

20:59

tapes and video and you know The wolf of

21:01

Wall Street, Jordy Belfer teaches a straight line method,

21:04

which is called the Lehman method Yeah, but the

21:06

only way to be greater anything is repetition repetition

21:09

repetition repetition I see morons

21:13

They just that have no business picking

21:15

up a phone making a half

21:17

a million seven hundred fifty thousand a year Just

21:20

because they don't quit stick

21:22

to it ofness. It's a great quality. You

21:25

don't get down You eat

21:27

rejection and you just keep going

21:30

the only way to lose is to

21:32

quit well what we teach our people

21:34

here that is for me the ultimate

21:36

cure for that for that ailment of

21:39

Terrified of the know right as

21:41

we value the know in everything we do and every

21:43

business that I have that involves Outbound

21:46

reach, you know outbound calling No,

21:49

it's converted warmly to this whatever it is anything

21:51

that balls outbound. We value the know which I

21:53

say, okay, look You're closing

21:55

probability on these is about three to five percent.

21:57

Whatever it is, which means that three percent three

21:59

people out of 100 you're gonna say yes. So

22:02

when they say yes you make five

22:04

grand. So now you take

22:06

you know three percent so

22:08

now you say 15 grand is what you're gonna

22:10

make per 100 calls. So everybody tells

22:13

you to go fuck yourself you're

22:15

really making about 150 bucks. Kind of makes

22:17

it go down a little smoother when

22:19

you're looking at that way. You

22:21

see I found you put blinders on and

22:23

you don't calculate you don't analyze you don't

22:25

think. No. You just do. So I'll tell

22:27

you this story but we have Hutton. Yeah.

22:30

And finally I raised my hand they get

22:32

a guy in the phone and I make

22:34

my pitch and at

22:36

the end of this a week they rate every

22:38

one of the sales people. Out of 133 people

22:40

I was like 80.

22:43

I was like you know

22:45

barely in the top 70 percent or whatever it

22:47

was. That would make people

22:49

better than me and

22:51

that was very humbling and

22:54

I thought I didn't think I was very

22:56

good but you know what that

22:58

doesn't matter. All that matters is

23:00

that you keep going. And

23:02

so what happened was at

23:04

the end of the first year we got our three sevens

23:07

and then we went on business for real. It

23:11

was February of 1984. I started

23:14

by the end of the year I was

23:16

number one in opening accounts by

23:18

a mile by the way. By a mile. And what

23:20

do you attribute that to? And then

23:22

I was second in gross production.

23:24

I was generated commissions. The only one that

23:27

was ahead of me was

23:29

Marge Shot's son, Steven

23:31

Shot, who had a 500 million dollar

23:33

trust fund and was just trading his own money to

23:35

make commissions. Yeah right. He had one account himself and

23:37

his mom you know I mean. So

23:39

I and so I was shocked by this because

23:42

if you just heard heard me in a

23:44

room of a hundred people selling you would

23:48

think I'm okay but you know

23:50

you walk by nothing. That's what made you great.

23:53

Just psychology. Just stick to it

23:55

of this and learning

23:57

to manage.

24:00

Fear everybody's afraid.

24:02

I never understood that when

24:04

I was a kid and you know the

24:06

first day of school We I don't know if you had a school bus

24:08

where you grew up you to go in a corner and wait for a

24:10

school bus I went I'd be like daddy.

24:12

I'm scared I'm so

24:15

scared and like when I had to

24:17

go away to sleep away camp I was like 10

24:19

years old or eight years old and I was leaving

24:21

parents drop you off And then you don't see it

24:23

for two months and I said

24:25

daddy. I'm so scared My

24:27

father would say son you're not scared

24:30

You just have anxiety you nervous and he

24:32

taught me the word of anxiety of anxiety

24:36

Just don't worry. Everybody feels anxious

24:39

and that was like a volume to a young

24:41

boy Because I I

24:44

would go through life looking at you and say

24:46

look at this guy. So toys handsome. He's got

24:48

a great rap He's not scared. Oh But

24:51

I'm scared and once I learned they

24:53

figured that everybody's scared So

24:56

not just picking up the phone not just me the

24:58

guy that's answering the phone is scared. He's

25:00

got fear He's got anxiety and

25:02

so all of it just went away It

25:04

went away when I realized that I was sort of normal that

25:07

way and you just got

25:09

to keep going You have

25:11

to you have to learn every technique there is but

25:13

then adopt it and create your own style And

25:16

I quickly learned that I can't

25:18

sound as slick as

25:21

some of these sort of Harvard educated Ivy

25:23

League educated guys a guy like you father

25:25

was a big attorney. You well spoken, you

25:27

know, you're very Well

25:30

manicured we're gonna start dating you keep He's

25:37

got no hair out of place I'm

25:39

gonna have to understand my wife's I'm gonna explain

25:42

this episode to my wife You

25:44

know, your wife is that good-looking I should

25:46

explain it So what

25:48

I'm saying really is that I

25:50

adopted my own style and people

25:52

are just people We're

25:55

all the same. We all

25:57

feel the same kind of things, you

25:59

know A lot of people go through life

26:02

and they say, oh, look at that guy, look

26:04

at that, this guy's a garbage man, this guy's

26:06

a lawyer, this guy's a judge, this guy's a

26:08

waiter. But we're all

26:10

the same. If you stop looking for

26:12

the differences and you focus on the

26:15

realities, the blessings, the common threads we

26:17

all have, it allows

26:19

you to move through the world in a much

26:22

cleaner and more effective way. Well,

26:25

the best thing I think I've ever heard about

26:27

sales, I was watching, there's a show in HBO,

26:29

which is almost unwatchable, it's called industry. The reason

26:31

it's unwatchable, especially if you've got kids, because it's

26:34

essentially really great trading floor

26:36

dialogue than drugs, than

26:38

sex, then really great trading floor dialogue, than drugs

26:40

and sex. And it just repeats

26:42

every episode. It's just like, yeah, it's just like, can't

26:45

watch it with kids walking around. But

26:47

there were times, it's there's a trading floor

26:49

in London at a company and the guy's

26:51

explaining to the first year people

26:54

on the teams, he says, listen, he's

26:56

after him, similar job is, our job is

26:58

to talk people into making

27:00

a decision that we know is right for

27:02

them much faster than they want

27:04

to make that decision. I like it. And

27:07

I thought, man, that is such a good way to

27:09

explain really what sales is on an

27:11

intimate level. What's about identifying a need?

27:13

Yeah. You like to make money? Sure.

27:17

You sure? I wouldn't be here if it didn't. Okay, or if

27:19

I could show you a way that you can make some money,

27:22

you'd be interested in chatting with me. You've talked about how

27:24

attractive I am. I think you're gonna turn me out Ross.

27:26

I think this could be a problem. So you understand it's

27:28

like, it's about

27:30

understanding we're all the same and

27:32

we all have certain needs. And, you know,

27:35

when you go to Wall Street, they teach you to tap into fear

27:37

and greed. I have an opportunity for

27:39

you. Okay, so you

27:41

can't take advantage of this opportunity. Don't worry, I'm

27:44

sure there'll be another opportunity or down

27:46

the road. I just hate to see you miss out

27:48

on. FOMO. You know, the old,

27:50

the takeaway sale. I mean, there's just so

27:52

many methods and effective techniques that are taught

27:54

by geniuses, experts. I

27:57

mean, they have analyzed this fricking field and

27:59

you can, there's so many. much information available,

28:01

but again until you do

28:03

it over and

28:05

over and over again, you

28:08

don't have an edge. You know, I used to

28:10

make $300 a day for 20 years. I used

28:13

to pitch a minimum of 10

28:15

people every day. I'm qualifying, I

28:17

walk around through life and I qualify everybody.

28:19

I want to know everything about

28:21

everybody. I don't do it, I don't do it consciously anymore.

28:24

It's just, you know, when I went to prison and

28:27

I was in a few places, I know

28:29

everybody, I knew what their worth was, I know

28:31

what, you know, what they were doing, I understand

28:33

where they are in life, I understand details about

28:35

their lives, so forth and so on. And,

28:38

you know, I have an advantage in the fact that I

28:40

genuinely like people. It's not an act. Yeah, you can't, I

28:42

don't think you can be great in a sales job if

28:44

you hate, if you don't hate people. I don't think you

28:47

can. Well, I have, I have some examples

28:49

of guys that make millions and

28:51

really hate people. Really? Yeah, but I think

28:53

it's because they have low self-esteem and they

28:55

hate themselves. I haven't really analyzed it that

28:57

carefully, but I know that they really

29:00

think that they're very superior and they don't like

29:02

anybody and they don't care for people,

29:04

but they're great sales guys because they're practiced at

29:06

it. They're practiced at it,

29:08

but the best thing I could tell you with

29:10

sales is most salesmen are nervous, so you talk

29:12

at, you talk at the person and

29:15

the idea in sales is to talk with

29:17

somebody. Yeah. Doing something together. Yeah. Nobody wants

29:19

to buy anything, but everybody wants to own

29:22

something. It's like we always say, if you're

29:24

talking more than the person you're talking to,

29:26

you're doing it wrong. Well,

29:28

you know, I don't think there are any

29:30

absolutes. There are stylistic differences, you know? So

29:34

let's, so let's get back to EF Hutton. So, so you,

29:36

when do you leave EF Hutton and start your own deal?

29:38

Well, I go to EF Hutton and I leave in 1986

29:40

to go to Oppenheimer Company.

29:42

What was the offer that your boss put on the table

29:44

at that kind of production to EF Hutton? What was the

29:46

offer your boss put on the table as you're walking out

29:48

the door? Well, I had, I'll give

29:50

you an example. Right in 1987, I was lured

29:54

away from a place called DH Blair. This

29:56

is where I started making millions of dollars. I

29:59

went there in my... I had a few

30:01

thousand dollars and I ended

30:03

up having 30 million dollars on my account on

30:06

my 29th birthday. And

30:08

I left and they, you know, I was routinely off at 300,

30:10

350,000 upfront, which in those days is, you know. It's

30:15

good money. Pretty decent money upfront. Yeah. Very

30:18

little, just changing my desk and

30:20

you know. Well, I can just,

30:22

I can just imagine the powers that be

30:24

at these companies when you're walking out the

30:26

door, just doing, throwing just ridiculous shit at

30:28

you, they do, they do.

30:31

And they threaten to, it's, I was threatened

30:33

quite often for leaving. First

30:35

they try the carrot, then they go with the stick.

30:37

Yeah. That's a big play because these

30:39

men are lesser than you and

30:41

they don't know really to how to

30:43

sort of outsell you and

30:45

their propositions are not working. So then they go

30:48

with the stick. That's something that, you

30:51

know, small people are very good at doing. And

30:53

so a lot of the problems that I had on

30:56

my record were from me

30:58

saying, listen, I'm out of here, bro. I

31:01

wish you good luck. And then they would just write

31:03

me up on there. I'm like, well, you five it's

31:05

called within the industry. It's like, it's

31:07

like industry talk. I would get you five in a negative

31:10

way. I left. But

31:12

if I stayed, I was getting a 300, half a million to

31:15

put on an office, you know, partnership, but because

31:17

I decided to leave, they would write me up

31:20

like I'm a bad guy and all these different

31:22

things. Trying to damage that future deal. Yeah. That's

31:24

gross. And that happens a lot

31:27

in this business. It's just really, it's

31:29

cutthroat. That's gross. And then everybody tries

31:31

to steal everybody's clients. You

31:33

know, it's a very different kind of game than let's

31:35

say real estate. Not dude,

31:37

no, it is not. I mean,

31:39

we're a completely vertically integrated company here, right? So

31:42

we own our own mortgage company. We own our own title and

31:44

escrow company. We own everything. If there's a

31:46

nickel spin around real estate, we own part

31:48

of that company. I love it. That's just

31:51

doing that. And we have

31:53

had because, you know, like, look, if

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in your life at capella.edu. When

32:43

you're a real estate company and you all

32:45

of a sudden start opening a title company,

32:47

and you're competing with the big,

32:49

giant national powers that be that have always had

32:51

full reign of being able to walk in. I

32:53

mean, just so you know, this real estate company

32:55

that you're in, this is the number two highest

32:57

grossing company for real estate in

32:59

Nevada. Love it, and Nevada's

33:01

one of the best markets. Yeah, yeah, we'll do

33:04

$2 billion plus in sales this year. We'll do

33:06

4,000 plus transactions. We've

33:09

got just under 600 agents who work here,

33:11

which is great for the number. The number

33:13

one company has like 1,800 agents,

33:16

and the number three company has like 1,100 agents. So

33:19

we- We have 600, you said? We have just

33:21

under 600. So we're doing extremely well

33:23

what we do. So, you know,

33:25

we're big, we're 6% of the market is

33:27

this company. And when you shut

33:29

the door- In the bottom market. Yeah, and when

33:31

you shut the door on

33:34

the big national title companies, because you

33:36

opened your own, they don't like

33:38

that shit. They do not like that shit. And over

33:41

the years, we've had them come in and

33:43

poach some of our

33:46

bigger salespeople from the company. And

33:48

yeah, with the walking papers if

33:50

they were gonna try to come

33:52

in and steal our business. And

33:54

none of them have been successful doing it. We've

33:58

been able to kind of, you know. I'll

34:00

flank that in our own way through good

34:02

quality relationships. And we continue to have to

34:04

do that. So that's about it, we always

34:06

have to fight. That's not singular

34:09

to that, any one industry. If

34:11

you're making money and there's a bigger company

34:14

that's making more, you're gonna have a problem.

34:17

You know, there's a common thread that runs

34:19

through all business, I get that. And

34:22

then there are the differences, but

34:24

the common threads remain the common threads. So

34:27

I was speaking on a different level, but

34:29

when I went on my own and

34:31

I built my own broker dealer, that's

34:34

when things are really interesting. Yeah, so it's not like that.

34:36

Yeah, so in 1990, the end of 94, beginning of 1995,

34:42

I bought a broker dealer, it

34:46

was the NASD broker dealer, today the term is FINRA, from

34:49

a guy named Jerry Roth, who was a partner

34:51

at Spear Leech Kellogg, that

34:54

tried owning his own place. And

34:56

he just wasn't cut out for that kind of

34:59

thing. He was a very

35:01

successful trader, he had a huge house,

35:03

18 horses, stables, the whole thing, Bedford,

35:05

New York. So I paid him $2

35:07

million, and I signed

35:10

an amazing real estate deal. Best real

35:12

estate deal anyone knows. In

35:14

the middle of Manhattan, on

35:17

Madison Avenue, 52nd

35:19

Street, in the corner of Madison

35:22

Avenue, 52nd Street, and

35:24

I paid $23 a square foot, the

35:28

$250,000 build out, 12,000 square feet. And

35:32

eventually when I sold the firm, Blackstone

35:37

took my office space, paying

35:39

about 175 a square foot. Oh

35:42

man. I was paid $23 a square foot. That

35:44

is a good deal. It's a great story, but I

35:46

had to make the deal within two hours, take it

35:49

or leave it. Bank of America was being acquired by

35:53

Nations Bank, and they kept

35:56

their name back up America, but the deal was they had a

35:58

divest of like 10 million square feet of. Real

36:00

estate all around the country and I do it one day So

36:03

that fire sale my lawyer said you can go take a look It's

36:05

gonna be the deal of your life, but you have to make a

36:07

decision in two hours I said what I

36:09

don't like I don't like being rushed to hurried, but it

36:11

was legit and So I

36:13

made the deal and I got a build out and it

36:15

was amazing with an amazing run But

36:18

um, you know when you when you go on your own When

36:22

you work for somebody you don't really understand

36:24

the totality of the game once you

36:26

open up your own place The

36:29

people say ah fuck him. I could do this

36:31

I could do this on my own you never

36:33

really understand what it's like because if you're the

36:35

captain of ship You don't always

36:37

show to the staff the underlings.

36:39

Oh what it is you go. You got to

36:41

be the duck man You

36:44

gotta move and smooth and cool cool on

36:46

top of the surface of water But paddle

36:48

like a mother trucker below to keep up

36:50

you're an actor. Yeah, and that's part of

36:52

the game and basically a problem-solver and I

36:56

put together a group of young men

36:58

gave them a piece of the firm and For

37:02

you know what? I have like 150 guys working for me doing

37:05

tons of business I sold out

37:07

in about 18 or 19 months and

37:09

I made close to 40 million dollars Yeah, it's

37:12

good clip. It's just boom Bing

37:14

Bang Boom and then I found my wife there. I

37:17

Sort of just took it easy for a while. I just was trading the

37:19

market. It was the end of the 90s and It

37:22

was the beginning of the dot-com boom and

37:24

everything I bought just went wild

37:28

Every every company I put some money

37:30

in just went crazy yeah, and

37:32

I was getting in getting out getting in getting out and And

37:36

then the dot-com crash came To

37:39

March of 2000 to give you an idea Amazon

37:41

went from $300 the Amazon

37:44

we know today to three in

37:46

like three weeks The market

37:48

was the end of the world part one and

37:51

run fourth

37:53

biggest Company in the United States biggest

37:56

energy trading company in the world fraud

37:58

zero world calm world Bernie

38:01

Ebbers fraud. Yeah, that's the biggest company

38:03

in the world. The phone company forgot

38:05

to zero Fraud I got

38:07

but I got burned because of world calm Business

38:10

I was doing yeah, one of the guys that was a partner in a

38:12

business that I was in that we were about to launch Was

38:15

a VP at WorldCom and lost Everything

38:19

and like one day I supposed everything lost

38:21

it all over. He has entire Because

38:23

because world comes talk Scorching and

38:25

he just so he moved his entire 401k every

38:28

into it everything everything was a roll calm and

38:30

dude He lost everything in a day and he

38:32

went in a very dark place in it killed

38:35

that business I was stuck that I already

38:37

invested with with him. It's a loosen technologies.

38:39

L. U. A Bell

38:41

darling an a plus rated company

38:43

went from 82 to 0

38:47

to whatever it was, you know, it was crazy Yeah,

38:50

and I'm sitting at the beach at what

38:52

had nice beach house on Long Island and

38:55

I'm looking at these idiots They're preying on

38:57

CNBC with their thoughts about what's

38:59

happening. I said, what are these people

39:01

stupid? This is a

39:03

fucking this is a bear market. This

39:05

is a real correction and I've

39:07

made in 1987

39:10

I sat in front of the screen and

39:12

I watched I had about a hundred ten million on my money

39:14

line I watched you go down to

39:16

about 20 million. I Watched

39:18

my own 30 million dollars Go

39:21

down to two million dollars the

39:23

crash of 87. Oh in

39:25

in in less than a year I

39:27

went from having 30 million to

39:29

two million that some people say we

39:32

start to mean it's pretty good, but Work

39:37

like that when you're living on 30, it's

39:39

a what's yeah, and I was like I you

39:41

couldn't believe because there hadn't been a crash since

39:44

1929 Yeah, we

39:46

were just flying. I mean it was so easy to make

39:48

money. I go in two three days a week I make

39:50

a hundred grand, you know, I buy

39:52

new Mercedes I go next week two three two

39:54

three days a week make another hundred grand. It

39:56

was sick and I

39:59

learned a lot and I And again, the

40:01

market stock market like golf, the game, it's

40:03

humbling. There's a humility

40:06

that even the best have. But

40:09

once you sort of understand the game, it's

40:12

much easier to play the game and to succeed. So

40:14

in 2000, when the markets cracked, I was sitting with

40:17

a load of cash and

40:20

a new baby and a beautiful

40:22

wife, apartment in Manhattan, we're at

40:24

the beach, sort of

40:26

semi-retired. And I said, you

40:28

know what I called up my lawyer said, listen, I'm gonna start a

40:30

company. I sketched out on a pad what I wanted it to look

40:32

like. It's not going

40:34

to be like my last stockbroker's firm. This

40:37

is going to be an international firm. I want

40:39

to take it public on a foreign stock exchange,

40:41

preferably in London. My lawyers like,

40:43

what, what, what, what is this coming from? Says,

40:46

this is going to cost a lot of money. I said, what do

40:48

you think? Now, we like

40:50

it's going to at least four and a half million, five

40:52

million just to get started. So I want to

40:54

raise nine. I always raise double what I think I need. So

40:58

I raised nine million bucks quickly, put together nine million

41:00

really, and started to approach

41:02

people that I've worked with over the years,

41:05

named the company Sky Capital because my older daughter

41:07

was Sky. She was three months old at the

41:09

time. And so I

41:11

was, I was, I wrote a proposition out and

41:14

created a document around the proposition was

41:17

that this correction was going

41:19

to lead to a prolonged bear market. And

41:21

the financial services industry was going to be

41:23

particularly hard hit because

41:26

there's less trading, less transactions, less

41:28

customers, lawsuits, just

41:30

everything is it, you know, you

41:32

lose your income, you lose your portfolio value.

41:35

It's terrible for people in the industry. I

41:37

said, I'll be able to buy assets for

41:39

five, 10 cents on the dollar. And

41:42

I bought out nine firms and

41:44

put this together, went to England to

41:46

try to go public. So wait. So

41:49

everything you bought, obviously vulture for you, vulture

41:51

funded it, but everything you bought was they

41:54

were all trading firms.

41:56

They were stockbrokers firms, trading

41:58

firms, market making firms. with

42:00

black box technology, all

42:02

these different things. They were all in tatters. A

42:04

lot of guys said, listen, just take my guys, because

42:07

if I don't, they're on the contract, they

42:09

can sue me to death. So I just

42:11

took a lot of stripped assets. I

42:13

paid off some debts. I did the right

42:16

thing. Yeah. And I built Sky Capital, and

42:18

then I went over to England, and

42:20

I had a meeting with the top law firm in

42:22

the city of London, because one of the most famous

42:24

lords in England was a personal client of mine for

42:27

many years. I'm very

42:29

well together. And he

42:31

set up this meeting, and I go up to the top of Tower 42. I

42:34

did a part of the story

42:36

in the wealth formula, which

42:38

is a new curriculum that I'm launching literally in three

42:41

weeks, Bradley and Lightspeed.

42:43

Yeah, Brad's a friend. And

42:45

it's going to be, I

42:47

believe, the most groundbreaking, unbelievable

42:50

business. We'll get to that. But I just want

42:53

to say, so I tell this story on the

42:55

camera beginning of this wealth

42:58

formula. The guys at Tower 42, I told

43:00

them what I want to do. And they told me, young man, you

43:02

should just get in the taxi and go right back to the airport

43:04

and go home. It's impossible.

43:08

I said, what do you mean impossible? I

43:11

said, is it impossible, or has it

43:13

never been done? Is it

43:15

improbable, or is it impossible? And they looked at

43:17

each other like, it's impossible. I

43:19

said, listen. They said the

43:21

four-minute mile was impossible. Until

43:24

somebody did it. And then what, 57 more people did

43:26

it the first year after? Crazy numbers.

43:28

Now everybody does it. I'm the only

43:30

one that can't run a mile on four-minute. Depends

43:34

on who's chasing me. I'll say that quickly. When

43:37

the feds came after me, I was pretty quick. So

43:42

the bottom line is a

43:45

lot of stuff is up here to the mind. If

43:47

you believe you can, or you believe you

43:49

can't, you're probably right. Henry

43:51

Ford. And if

43:54

you believe you can, impossible is really

43:57

I'm possible. Break

43:59

it down. I'm possible

44:03

so it would have never been done and I

44:07

Asked these guys a bunch of questions to say well if

44:09

you if somebody was gonna try even try this here's what

44:11

you would need a Member of Parliament a

44:13

parliamentary appointee probably a member of your American

44:16

Congress this that the other Within

44:18

two hours I put together the whole

44:20

package a United States

44:22

senator former United States

44:24

congressman Member of

44:26

Parliament and then a parliamentary appointee all

44:29

on board Had the

44:31

money Now it was just running

44:33

around in with finding an underwriter. That was quite a

44:35

challenge I admit, but I got it

44:37

done. I got it done fairly quickly and we had a Mementous

44:42

stock offering which you call an IPO. Yeah, and

44:45

the reason it was momentous People

44:47

probably don't remember but you might You're

44:50

still a little young we had this dot-com

44:52

crash in March of 2000 Just

44:55

when things were starting to heal their

44:57

market was starting to move into a

45:00

positive direction. We had 9-11 9-11

45:04

they whacked out the World Trade Center

45:06

and The

45:08

markets closed for a week In

45:11

two world wars we didn't have that But

45:13

the stock market the exchange was almost destroyed. They

45:15

only had one pipe left they

45:18

knew what they were doing when Zarebs

45:22

and and was destroyed really,

45:25

you know our whole camera sure came

45:27

very close and There

45:32

were no IPOs for almost two years

45:34

in England zero and In

45:37

June of o2. I took my company public sky

45:39

capital was priced at pound 85.

45:41

It opened up at two pounds 25

45:45

and stayed there for months and And

45:47

Brits put me on national television and

45:50

they used me to say look see

45:53

American guy comes here does this everybody 40% in

45:55

day one. Everything's okay and everything's okay It's

45:57

so safe to come back into the markets

45:59

literally put me on national television for nine

46:01

minutes. And they put this whole

46:04

thing behind me, like my stock went, the chart went

46:06

like this, because it was one day. Got

46:09

all of the hockey stick charts. And I went to jail, right?

46:12

And to make a long story

46:14

short, I really had to run, and

46:16

I bought a firm two days

46:18

later that had done half a billion dollars

46:20

in revenue the

46:22

year before, wildly profitable,

46:26

a hundred million dollar deal. And

46:28

I was off to the races. And I

46:30

started raising money and I

46:32

built a fund. And I took that fund public in 04. So

46:35

life was pretty good. So when

46:38

did the fed show up? In

46:40

November of 06, I'm having a board

46:42

meeting. I'm running two

46:44

public companies. I had offended

46:46

everybody by doing that, especially

46:50

some cats in Washington and lower Manhattan, which

46:52

I didn't understand. I thought I was doing a good

46:54

thing. I created a

46:56

way for US companies to

46:58

go public for a fraction of the cost,

47:01

a fraction of the regulatory hassle, and

47:04

for triple the liquidity. I

47:07

created that footprint. And after

47:09

I did it the second time, Goldman Sachs came

47:11

at me, asked me how I did it. I

47:13

spoke there very graciously at Goldman Sachs. And

47:16

200 companies followed my

47:18

footprint, including KKR, Blackstone,

47:20

all the big boys.

47:24

And they just tweaked what I did a little bit here

47:26

and there, but you go public over there, and

47:29

you have only biannual reporting. So you know what,

47:32

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48:22

the stock market? Yeah, of course. You have a portfolio?

48:25

I do. Okay, do you own any foreign stocks by any

48:27

chance? I do not. Okay, now most people would say the

48:29

same thing as you, even if you did

48:31

own them, you'd say you own them in America because

48:33

there were different ways to get their paper, to

48:36

trade their paper from the United States.

48:39

But what you don't know is, so

48:41

you buy American stocks that trade in America

48:44

because it's quarterly reporting, is at level

48:46

of transparency, every three months they

48:48

have to sit down with their accounts and report everything

48:51

that's gone in the company. The whole rest

48:53

of the world doesn't do that. What

48:56

a shock. You know nobody knows that.

48:58

If you listen to this amazing podcast,

49:00

Escaping the Drift, with handsome

49:02

big John over here, I promise you're gonna

49:04

learn something right now. There you go. They

49:07

only have what you call buy annual reporting.

49:10

The whole rest of the world, you report twice

49:12

a year, and after six months,

49:14

you just do a review. It's

49:16

not even audited financials. You

49:18

only get audited financials once a year at the

49:20

end of the year. It

49:23

saves the company's zillions of dollars

49:25

in accounting fees. The

49:27

PCOAB, I hope they don't come after

49:29

me, the PCOAB is a professional accounting

49:31

board in America. They

49:33

became like the Vatican. They

49:36

have powers like the Pope in business here

49:38

in America because you

49:40

need them to sign off on your financials,

49:43

on their comments, on the audits, et

49:45

cetera, and they see how much money

49:47

you're making and they

49:49

say, you're a little old accountant all of a

49:52

sudden. He's like a wolf in sheep's clothing. All

49:54

of a sudden he's like, I want some

49:56

of that and you need my signature.

49:59

So they... break balls, just business, they have

50:01

the leverage, right? So they're

50:03

gonna squeeze you as much as they

50:05

can, squeeze the companies as much as they can. They

50:07

don't have that kind of power when they only have

50:09

one audit a year, the rest of the world. So

50:13

companies that don't, are not, you know, it

50:16

prompted to have to perform every three months

50:18

and put up real, you know, these crazy

50:20

growth numbers. With stocks gonna lose billions of

50:22

dollars in value. It's crazy, it's

50:25

crazy. You have a, it's like running a marathon,

50:27

but you know, every quarter mile,

50:29

half mile, you have someone regulating you. Yeah. Very

50:32

hard to execute a real

50:34

strategy. A long-term strategy. Right, when you're

50:36

working every three months at a

50:38

time. And that's what, that's polluted the American, capital

50:42

markets. Well, that's why it's so hard for these

50:44

guys to take a step back to do the

50:46

right thing long-term, because you can't take long-term. You're

50:49

gonna get smashed. Right, your money, if you're taking

50:51

a company public and you're part of a growth

50:53

company like that, I mean, you know, this is

50:55

your future right here. And every 90 days you're

50:57

being evaluated, which is quite unfair in my opinion.

50:59

It's a lot. Right, especially, and so who gets

51:02

up getting screwed with the public? You

51:04

know, so I create a wonderful way.

51:06

You go public over there, you'll have

51:08

your, you get all your stuff sorted out. You're

51:12

already regulated in public, you

51:14

have audited financials. All you gotta do,

51:17

you bring it back to the United States, you can

51:19

trade in a number of ways, or you go right

51:22

to NASDAQ. You know, all you gotta

51:24

do now is become reporting every quarter. You've

51:26

just eliminated tons of fees. You already have

51:28

a shareholder base. I mean,

51:30

I created something brilliant. And I

51:32

thought that it was amazing. I learned later

51:35

on that according to

51:37

certain people in

51:40

government and private sector. That was the air

51:42

quotes for those of you listening and out-lots

51:44

and certain people. Lower Manhattan lost about $100

51:47

billion in fees because

51:50

of the footprint I created. I don't like

51:53

that. Well, you know, it's like when you're

51:55

in prison, they say, don't fuck with my money. Yeah, that's

51:57

what a guy will say to you. Don't fuck with my

51:59

money. In them in the real

52:01

business world. They don't say that they just sick to do

52:03

J on you So

52:06

November 6 or so November 5th I'm having

52:08

a board meeting up at

52:10

Sky Capital with a parliamentary appointee former

52:12

congressman for me United States senator and

52:15

40 SWAT 8th FBI agents come in at

52:17

jackets Like in SWAT

52:20

style guns raised everybody freeze nobody

52:22

move Well up

52:24

what the fuck what's going on a guy guy?

52:28

Kurt Kurt Dangler throws me up against

52:30

the wall and Tells

52:32

me to shut the fuck up and he

52:35

says that I better give him all the guns Tell him where all

52:37

the guns and drugs are and he'll go easy on me I'm

52:40

like what why would

52:43

I have guns and drugs? Consintra

52:45

investment back. I'm running two public

52:47

companies you stupid fuck. I Mean,

52:50

of course, we didn't get along too well for the next five years But

52:53

you know he's coming at me like what

52:56

Now he had some it's somewhat fed him information Understand

52:59

they were fed information. It was

53:01

a bad raid. It was a bad

53:04

they they had called all

53:06

the New York press Were

53:08

down in the lobby of 110 Wall

53:10

Street. He got perp walked out when no not that

53:12

I don't know. I didn't get arrested for three years

53:15

after that. That was just that was just a search

53:17

and seizure range No, they just

53:19

had executed search warrant Because that

53:21

how you execute a search warrant today guns

53:23

drawn 40 agents locking down a floor calling

53:25

a whole New York media downstairs I'm

53:28

sure they thought there were guns and drugs Someone

53:31

had fed him some information and that was they were to

53:33

take me away in handcuffs Guess

53:35

what? So nothing a

53:37

couple hours later. They're like it's got 300 boxes.

53:40

They said nobody's getting arrested Nobody's in trouble and

53:42

we went back to trading. You know, I'm in

53:44

the front page of every newspaper in 130 countries

53:47

Literally, and what does that do to your client? Well,

53:49

you tell me if you want to do trades the

53:52

next day You want to do trades with Sky Capital?

53:54

No, so they they admit They

53:56

admit the Southern District of New

53:58

York today admits that they acted his judge,

54:00

jury and executioner. They should

54:02

go to jail for what they did to me.

54:04

Now, remember, I had hundreds of shareholders on public

54:06

companies. The next day, the stock

54:09

exchange calls the department of justice. It

54:11

says, what the hell? Are

54:13

you guys going to shut them down? We

54:15

need to know. These are public companies. We

54:18

have an obligation to the public. They

54:20

refuse to comment. But when they

54:22

came to Sky Capital, they said, nobody's getting

54:25

arrested. Nobody's in trouble. But

54:27

the fact that didn't bother to comment to them.

54:29

They refuse to comment. The stock exchange froze our

54:31

stocks at that moment. And

54:33

so literally hundreds, if

54:35

not thousands of people got

54:37

hit and still nobody sued me because

54:40

what did I do? I'm running a clean

54:42

business. I'm being ordered by

54:45

the SEC, by the NASD, FINRA, by

54:47

the London Stock Exchange, by the FSA,

54:49

those authorities in London. I

54:52

was being regulated by everybody. And

54:54

I had clean reports every

54:56

year, you know, little teeny little

54:58

things. My trader didn't punch

55:00

a time clock, you know, stupid stuff. So when did

55:02

they actually charge you? So this is in 06 November

55:05

of 06. Now

55:07

behind the scenes, they had arrested one or

55:09

two of my guys. We're doing scheming with

55:11

customers, stealing some

55:14

money, selling cocaine to

55:17

an FBI agent. And

55:20

July 2nd of 09, so

55:24

you're talking about three years. Yeah. Government

55:27

calls. So in the meantime, 18

55:30

months became very difficult for me

55:32

to run this business, the brokerage business. Very difficult.

55:35

The markets were a wreck. And

55:37

March 31st of 08, I

55:39

sold the companies. But

55:42

before they bought the companies, the institutions and some very wealthy people

55:44

went to the DOJ and said, look, we're about to

55:46

buy this company for tens of millions of dollars.

55:48

If you're going to indict it, we need to

55:50

know. We need to know. And

55:53

these were big guys out of the UK. I

55:55

mean, big names, royalty, etc. And

56:02

the DOJ said, we have three questions for Ross Mandel.

56:06

If you can answer these three questions satisfactorily,

56:08

he's free to go and you're free to

56:10

do what you want. Buy the company, there'll be no

56:12

problems. March 31st of 08,

56:14

now you're a real estate guy. You remember 08,

56:16

09, what's coming. Remember what's

56:18

coming, 08, 09, right? Yep,

56:21

mortgage implosion. So when I

56:23

entered the letter of intent to sell in

56:26

October of 07, Dow Jones hit 14,000 plus. It

56:31

was an all time high. The day I signed the papers, it

56:33

was an all time high. Nobody knew, but that's what happened. By

56:36

the time we closed five months later, March 31st, there

56:38

was a lot of due diligence, public company, always shareholders,

56:40

the government, everything else. The

56:42

Dow was down to 10,000 and

56:44

dipping every day. And

56:47

I was like, my wife kept saying, you're so smart,

56:50

you're so smart. I got all this money and again,

56:52

10s of millions of dollars. I had

56:54

done very well, whatever. And she

56:56

goes, you're so smart, you're so smart. Every day I'm

56:58

sitting home on the couch watching CNBC and

57:01

I'm watching the market go down to the 300 points, to

57:03

the 400 points, to the 300 points. She's

57:05

going, oh my God, you sold to the

57:07

top. And I'm thinking, uh oh. Because

57:10

by now I've got a lot of experience in the market, a lot

57:12

of experience in life, a very bad

57:14

feeling. I sold March

57:16

31st of 08 and then the mortgage

57:18

crisis and the mortgage back security, they're too

57:20

big to fail and everybody's failing, AIG. We

57:23

need 120 billion by Monday, we're going out of

57:25

business. We lost A plus rated by all the

57:27

rating agencies. Companies A plus

57:30

rated. And

57:32

if it doesn't get $120 billion in four

57:34

days, it goes to zero. And

57:37

they indict me. My companies

57:40

didn't, never too, I had, my

57:42

companies were well funded, they didn't need money, anything else. The

57:44

guys that bought the company for me put

57:47

10 million good capital in it. And

57:51

with a yield within a year, they

57:53

were broke and they

57:56

were closing it down. Ugh, that's how

57:58

bad things were. July

58:02

2nd of 2009, they get a call from my attorney who had

58:05

originally told me it's over. He answered those

58:07

three questions satisfactorily. You're done. No fuss, no

58:09

must, I provided evidence. The government said, Mr.

58:12

Mandel is free to go. 18

58:14

months later, I'm being indicted on two

58:16

counts. Securities

58:18

fraud and conspiracy to commit securities fraud. The

58:21

same month the SEC had a press

58:23

conference and talked about how many

58:25

people they indicted more people up till now

58:27

than they've ever done in their lives. It's

58:29

really the SEC because they wanted the investing

58:31

public to know that they're

58:34

on top of it even though everything's going to shit. 0809,

58:37

too big to fail because all the banks failed. And

58:39

here's a great thing that I can explain to everybody. On

58:42

a Friday, Citibank received

58:44

a $50 billion cash injection

58:47

from the government. $50

58:49

billion on Friday. On Monday

58:51

morning, all the rating agencies put a rating on

58:53

it. You know what the net worth of Citibank

58:56

was? $20 billion. On

58:59

Friday, they got $50 billion

59:02

cash. They're covering with money. Monday night,

59:04

they were rated A plus with a

59:06

$20 billion net worth. So

59:08

they were short $30 billion. Covering those

59:10

costs. And they came after me. So just

59:12

so you understand the corruption in government. Well, dude, I

59:15

got one. I'm going to ask you an off the

59:17

cuff question because I'm just curious. So the fact that

59:19

you did have to go to jail for this stuff,

59:22

how, what is

59:24

your feeling about Nancy Pelosi being the best doctorate

59:27

or the history of the world? Well, I'm going

59:29

to say this to you. I had a number

59:31

of congressmen and senators as clients over the years

59:33

and they would literally call up, call me

59:36

up and call my brokers up and say, just get out of it.

59:38

I've just got out of a session in the Senate. Get

59:40

out. Bye. And

59:42

he's we need to do. I need to sell everything I can and buy this.

59:45

And they were always right. Yep. And

59:47

so the firm would say,

59:50

Senator Presley just called and then

59:52

everybody buy, you know, buy

59:54

Pfizer and that would run next. You know, Pfizer

59:57

gets some contract or some announcement come out and

59:59

they're making another. $25 billion and everybody

1:00:01

would make money. But here's the

1:00:03

thing, they're allowed to trade on inside information. They've

1:00:06

allowed themselves that, and you

1:00:08

know when they approve it every year, you know,

1:00:11

there were efforts to curb it. Yeah, yeah. And

1:00:13

they have these meetings in the Senate and the

1:00:15

Congress at midnight on a Friday. And

1:00:19

then they show up at Friday and they put

1:00:21

in their little chits and they turn

1:00:23

it down. There's still a lot to trade. I

1:00:25

think you're gonna see some change there soon.

1:00:28

I think there's enough noise in

1:00:30

the marketplace. There's enough noise. You

1:00:32

have to get the peanut gallery shaking and said, no,

1:00:34

it's like not a chance they're gonna do that. Why

1:00:36

would they get this benefit? Why

1:00:38

would they give it up? I

1:00:41

just, I think, look at AOC was

1:00:44

a waitress when she got, and

1:00:46

now she's worth what, $23 million? She

1:00:49

actually gives a yes. I mean, you know, she's very clever.

1:00:51

She's very attractive. So

1:00:53

gross. So gross. It's really

1:00:56

unfortunate, you know, with transparency

1:00:58

today, connectivity, the internet,

1:01:00

everybody knows everything. And

1:01:02

so to me, you gotta start getting honest

1:01:05

if you're in government. So you

1:01:07

still, even though you did nine and a half years, you

1:01:09

still maintain your innocence over any of these

1:01:11

charges. Okay, I learned that you can't use

1:01:14

the word innocence in the term. Okay,

1:01:16

I don't know. In terms of what? I'm

1:01:18

not guilty of the charges that were brought against me. And I can

1:01:20

tell you, I can tell you on my children, I'm not guilty on

1:01:23

the charges that were brought against me. I

1:01:25

don't think anybody would say, Roy Spindel's innocent.

1:01:28

I'm not that type of guy. I'm guilty of so

1:01:30

much in my life. But not that. But no, no,

1:01:32

I never stole from anybody ever in my life. I

1:01:34

never shopped with that. I've cheated anybody.

1:01:36

It's just not who I am. Okay. But

1:01:39

I've done plenty of things wrong. So after the nine and a

1:01:41

half years in prison, now I do wanna spend some time talking

1:01:43

about the new program that you have coming

1:01:45

out. Oh, it's incredible, I gotta say. So let's, let's,

1:01:48

You're in the business world, or if you wanna

1:01:50

be in the business world, I have provided means

1:01:52

to do that for a kid

1:01:54

that comes from the burial, from uneducated

1:01:57

and to the, to even guys like you.

1:01:59

If you... If you bought this course, it

1:02:01

would be a business bible for you. You

1:02:04

will be stunned at how

1:02:06

comprehensive. That's so far the

1:02:08

feedback. It's incredibly,

1:02:10

it's a 108 page written

1:02:12

text with 300 hyperlinks to

1:02:15

source material, online text, downloadable

1:02:18

PDFs and worksheets, and

1:02:20

then 13 extremely entertaining

1:02:23

modules narrated

1:02:25

by myself personally, edited by the best

1:02:27

in the world. Wood winning, award winning,

1:02:29

editors, producers, and the whole thing. And

1:02:32

now Brad is making it interactive so it's

1:02:34

like a training video. We

1:02:36

teach you how to go from all my life, people come

1:02:38

to me, this man, you're so successful, you're in the

1:02:40

stock market, blah, blah, blah. Will you mentor me? Will you

1:02:43

mentor me? Yeah, well, you'll mentor me, that's

1:02:45

a big one. You get that, I'm sure. But you

1:02:47

know, I have an idea. How do

1:02:49

I turn it into a business? Well, my wife's got this

1:02:51

product and my sister-in-law is doing this thing, it's amazing. How

1:02:53

do we turn this into a business? Can

1:02:55

you please help me? We do it

1:02:58

in a step-by-step comprehensive way but

1:03:01

it's really like a business bible. Everybody

1:03:05

needs it. So you're covering startup,

1:03:07

you're covering scale, you're covering marketing,

1:03:10

you're covering everything. Documentation,

1:03:12

vision board, vision plan, business plan, how

1:03:14

to raise money, pitch deck. You know,

1:03:16

this is for guys like yourself. What

1:03:20

sort of legal entity have you wrapped

1:03:22

your business around? LLC, Master Limited Partnerships,

1:03:24

C Corp, S Corp. What

1:03:27

is your jurisdiction? Did you incorporate in

1:03:29

Delaware? As Elon Musk recently found out,

1:03:31

is fuck all terrible? And

1:03:33

you know... Nevada is actually great. Nevada is a

1:03:35

wonderful place. Nevada? The

1:03:38

great state of Nevada. Yeah, great. Whether I

1:03:40

was in New York or Florida, the great state of Nevada. See,

1:03:42

I'm going to help you out with something else. I'm going to

1:03:44

just get you to something because when I first moved here from

1:03:46

Florida, I did the same thing. It's

1:03:48

Nevada, not Nevada. If you say Nevada,

1:03:51

people look at you like you're crazy.

1:03:53

Nevada. It's Nevada. I love

1:03:55

that. Which is funny because, you know,

1:03:57

when I'm from Florida, depending on which section of Nevada. Florida

1:04:00

you're in, it's pronounced a very

1:04:02

different way to be. You had scary South

1:04:04

Baja rednecks like I grew up with or,

1:04:07

uh, you know, you've got, you

1:04:09

know, people from all over the world that live in

1:04:11

Miami. So there's different presentations, but here it is Nevada.

1:04:13

Cause literally I was on the apprentice, um,

1:04:15

saying we were going to buy tickets to Las Vegas,

1:04:17

Nevada and, uh, Nevada.

1:04:20

And I got slathered for

1:04:22

it when I moved out here. Yeah. Nevada. Yeah.

1:04:25

You know what? Nevada is Nevada. I

1:04:27

love that. Nevada. So there you go. But you know, we

1:04:29

talk and people ask me, why don't we explain it? Because

1:04:32

you know, the, uh, we

1:04:35

explain in, in plain speak, I'm a

1:04:37

plain speaking type of guy and

1:04:39

we explain everything and break it down. And

1:04:41

you know, what we did was we went

1:04:43

out and bought every single online course that

1:04:45

that's available on social media and

1:04:48

the internet. And there's not even, if

1:04:50

you put them all together, it

1:04:52

doesn't make half of what we were offering right

1:04:54

now. You could, there's a presale of $300. And

1:04:57

it's really a $5,200 value. That's

1:05:00

not me. That's what the market would price it at. But

1:05:03

it's something that I want to do. So I'm 67

1:05:05

years old. I've been there and done that.

1:05:08

I've been a taker my whole life and I'm good

1:05:10

at it. And I just want

1:05:12

to give back a little bit and I want to

1:05:14

be an educator and I want to leave a legacy

1:05:16

for my children. I've got two daughters

1:05:19

and daddy went to prison when

1:05:21

they were 11 and 14, two young

1:05:23

girls growing up in Boca Raton,

1:05:26

Florida, like to show me city,

1:05:29

you know, and I was very public. I was

1:05:31

in the newspapers. I was on television, all that

1:05:33

shit. And everybody knew me. I was a

1:05:35

big, they seize all your assets. I mean, when you went

1:05:37

to prison, they seized, they didn't seize

1:05:39

anything. Cause they didn't have the grounds. I

1:05:41

didn't know this, but in

1:05:44

order to get bail, my lawyer said, look, I'm going

1:05:46

to put a $5 million cash, no

1:05:48

bond. And they say, he says,

1:05:51

what $40 million or so sitting in a

1:05:54

bank of America. He said, you'll have to

1:05:56

segregate that money. You can't touch it. Otherwise

1:05:59

they'd. They don't make it if

1:06:02

they can seize your money. They don't tell

1:06:04

you segregated. Yeah, they fucking but he Sucked

1:06:07

a sucking me in a very

1:06:09

bad guy Jeffrey Hoffman lawyer, New York

1:06:11

City bad, dude and Stephen

1:06:14

Altman bad dude, he's a bad guys

1:06:16

and They had their own

1:06:19

troubles with the government and they

1:06:21

basically sacrificed me took

1:06:23

a bullet point off the table and they got Altman

1:06:26

got to disbarred for 18 months Bad

1:06:29

guys guilty as fucking sin country

1:06:33

conflicts of interest I Had

1:06:35

just had I got screwed by lawyers.

1:06:37

What a shock I could be the first guy,

1:06:39

right? That

1:06:42

ever happens in this country, I don't think

1:06:44

so, but I want to give back. I

1:06:46

want to educate I want to create a

1:06:48

legacy sofa So my daughters come

1:06:50

to prison for the first visit like

1:06:53

daddy daddy kids are making fun of us daddy

1:06:55

people are asking me Where's my father? You knock

1:06:57

on a shop for dancing events and all these

1:06:59

different things you have children Yeah, two of them

1:07:01

boys girls one of each, right? So

1:07:03

you understand being a dad and the kids are bullies

1:07:05

and there's all kinds of nonsense social media and all

1:07:08

that So we had to teach

1:07:10

my kids how to respond to

1:07:12

other kids and other grown-ups I'm

1:07:15

teaching them from the prison visiting room and

1:07:19

Over the years they went to high school and they went to

1:07:21

college There's no daddy mommy had

1:07:23

to move him in mommy had to move out mommy had

1:07:25

a shop here mommy to show up there and They

1:07:28

became very adept and very clever at

1:07:30

avoiding. Where's your dad? Was

1:07:33

your dad do how come your dad's not here? And

1:07:35

so I was anytime the name dad came

1:07:38

up he changed the subject

1:07:40

very cleverly or just smart

1:07:42

very successful young woman today and I

1:07:46

Want that my daughters to be proud of me

1:07:48

and when somebody says that your dad? Yeah, that's

1:07:50

my dad You know,

1:07:52

I wasn't allowed to the unfriended me

1:07:54

in social media Thanks,

1:07:56

wife and my kids and

1:07:59

I'm not allowed to mention I'm allowed to comment on

1:08:01

their stuff, but now all of a sudden now I've

1:08:03

been out for about seven months and we're doing some

1:08:05

really good things. I'm really giving

1:08:07

back. I'm an educator. I'm helping a lot of

1:08:09

different things and they, uh, the

1:08:12

kids now take pictures with me. Well,

1:08:14

I think it's a big deal. Like

1:08:17

I think the lesson, the lesson there

1:08:19

is it doesn't matter how

1:08:22

old you are. You know, you

1:08:25

can always change the story. You

1:08:27

can always flip the script. You can always

1:08:29

write another chapter, you know, you

1:08:32

don't have to sit, you

1:08:34

know, your biggest failure doesn't have to become

1:08:36

your legacy. Correct. I want that. I want

1:08:38

my prison years to be an asterisk when

1:08:40

they tell my story. You

1:08:43

know, when I was away, I took

1:08:45

the time to do something I

1:08:47

had been putting off my whole life, which

1:08:49

is to read scripture. We

1:08:51

study it new to the old

1:08:53

Testament, the new Testament. I read the Quran

1:08:55

page by page with real

1:08:58

Muslim guys and I

1:09:00

read Hindi. What, what, what,

1:09:02

what prison you were on? I was at

1:09:04

the federal FCI Miami, which

1:09:06

was considered low security, but it

1:09:08

was really it wasn't a country

1:09:10

club. Oh, no, no, that doesn't

1:09:12

sound like that. Doesn't really exist anymore. Just

1:09:14

so you know, okay. I don't know. It

1:09:17

was revealed, uh, you know, uh,

1:09:19

years ago in a famous book. And so

1:09:21

defense quickly did away with that. It's fucking hell, bro.

1:09:24

It's prison as hell. I lived in a room smaller than

1:09:27

this with three grown men, a three

1:09:29

level bunk bed for two, two and a half years. It's

1:09:32

pretty tough. Prison sucks. No

1:09:35

prison sucks. Cause it's punishment. That's what they

1:09:37

tell. It's supposed to be. And

1:09:39

it's brutal. But I also went to a couple of camps. I was

1:09:41

in, I was locked in a detention center

1:09:43

in a room smaller than this 19 months

1:09:47

at the federal detention center in Miami, horrible

1:09:50

places. Nobody should know about

1:09:52

them. It's just horrible. But I got a chance

1:09:54

to read the classics. I

1:09:56

read Shakespeare and I listened to

1:09:59

Mozart. And I read

1:10:01

Chaucer and I read every

1:10:03

biography on jobs and Einstein always meaningful

1:10:05

people and I

1:10:08

developed a lot of things and one of the things in

1:10:10

that in I read Kabbalah 24 books

1:10:12

of the Zohar I learned the

1:10:14

Kabbalah and Zohar teaches you something

1:10:16

it says You can

1:10:18

change your past It's

1:10:21

an incredible thing. Mm-hmm. You can change it's

1:10:24

not just about changing your future By

1:10:27

doing certain things in your life. You can actually go back and

1:10:29

change your past That's it's another

1:10:31

conversation that yeah, no, it's on and on but

1:10:33

it's just an amazing thing And if I use

1:10:35

all the lessons I've learned and all the pain

1:10:38

that I've been through and help others and I

1:10:40

can help others I can literally change my past.

1:10:42

Yeah. Well if they if they want to find

1:10:44

you going forward, how do they find you Ross

1:10:47

Ross mandel? Com to SS 2

1:10:49

L's to SS 2 L's on

1:10:51

Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on

1:10:53

tick-tock. I'm everywhere So fine Ross.

1:10:55

Yeah Ross Mandel, I'm in Boca

1:10:57

Raton, Florida. I love that. Well, thanks for coming in

1:10:59

brother You always welcome back whenever you want big John.

1:11:01

I gotta say if you guys

1:11:04

don't know here comes again

1:11:06

This guy is good-looking Smart

1:11:08

he's got the see now when I was a

1:11:11

young salesman, I would have been intimidated by you.

1:11:14

You're so good No, I mean,

1:11:16

it's frightening your energy is just amazing. That's and

1:11:18

thank you so much for having me today I

1:11:20

appreciate it. Let's let's wrap this up today And

1:11:22

I think today is you know I saw something

1:11:24

the other day man that I thought was so

1:11:27

apropos for the conversation that we had today with

1:11:29

Ross Which is I was watching a clip from

1:11:31

Alex or Mosey and he was talking about in

1:11:34

life when you see adversity He

1:11:37

looks at it away and he says man This

1:11:39

is a story that I will eventually tell and

1:11:41

I want the adversity to be as big

1:11:44

as possible because the bigger the adversity The

1:11:46

bigger the dragon the bigger the hero and

1:11:48

I want to be as big of a hero as I can So

1:11:51

go out face your dragons be

1:11:53

a hero. I'll see you next week What's

1:11:59

up everybody Thanks for joining us for another episode of

1:12:01

Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of

1:12:03

it, or at least as much as I did out

1:12:06

of it. Anyway, if you wanna learn more

1:12:08

about the show, you can always go over to escapingthedrift.com.

1:12:11

You can join our mailing list, but do me

1:12:13

a favor if you wouldn't mind, throw up that

1:12:15

five-star review, give us a share, do something, man.

1:12:17

We're here for you. Hopefully you'll be

1:12:19

here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will

1:12:21

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