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This is a Technikon podcast.

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So far in this series, we have learned that

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almost every technology project has

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some ethical considerations attached.

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To avoid unintended consequences, disenfranchisement

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or potentially illegal activities,

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ethics measures must be implemented.

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We learned that it's up to scientists

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and technology experts to go beyond

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requirements to embed ethics

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principles, to not only ask

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the question, could we, but should

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we? Ethics is no longer

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an appendix or an add on.

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It's now becoming part of the project

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framework. As a result, we are

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seeing things like annual ethics audits

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and continuous monitoring mechanisms.

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Welcome to this special podcast series entitled

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Ethics and Technology - A Prerequisite

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for European Research. I'm

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your host, Peter Balint from Technikon.

1:00

In this episode, we talk about the world

1:02

of software and hardware engineering. While

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this discipline is dominated mainly by coders,

1:08

scientists and engineers, you

1:10

will soon see that an underpinning

1:12

of responsible ethics is key

1:14

to expecting effective results.

1:17

The EU funded EXFILES project is

1:19

an effort to develop new tools, methods

1:22

and training programs for law enforcement officials

1:24

seeking to gain access to encrypted

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telephones that have been taken into police

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custody as evidence. And

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this is a big deal for a few reasons. First,

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almost all mobile phones nowadays are

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encrypted, which gives everyone

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a highly effective way of keeping their data

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under wraps. So it's widespread.

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Secondly, a confiscated phone may contain

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information that could solve crimes

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or even prevent future criminal activity.

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In this scenario, Law enforcement are basically

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on their own, but the EXFILES project is

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meeting this challenge by researching data

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extraction methods for encrypted

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devices. Joining

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us today is Marcel Moritz. In

2:02

EXFILES he manages legal, ethical

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and societal issues. He

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speaks with us today from the University of Lille,

2:09

where he is a lecturer in public law. Welcome

2:12

and thanks for coming on today.

2:13

You're welcome.

2:15

We know that EXFILES is a project

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necessitated by encryption. Tell

2:20

us more about this and specifically where

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do technology and ethics overlap in a project

2:25

like this?

2:26

Well, I would say it's about maintaining

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balance between two things. On

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the one hand, allowing law enforcement agencies

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to do their work properly, conducting

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investigations and fighting organized

2:39

crime and terrorism, and

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on the other hand, safeguarding fundamental

2:44

rights such as the right

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to privacy, confidentiality of

2:48

communications, also to

2:50

avoid mass surveillance. And this

2:52

project meets the general ethical

2:55

question of the judicious

2:57

use of technological progress,

3:00

the use that will be good for us all. There's

3:02

also the question of the transparency

3:04

of evidence gathering techniques. Indeed,

3:08

behind this issue lies

3:10

an important aspect the right

3:12

to a fair trial, which is

3:14

a fundamental right. This raises

3:16

one major question to what extent

3:19

should law enforcement agencies

3:21

be transparent regarding their methods?

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If there are overly secretive, they

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may endanger the fundamental rights of

3:29

citizens and in particular

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those of suspects. But if

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law enforcement agencies are too transparent,

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they risk giving criminals the means

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to circumvent the methods. The

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general interest must also be

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taken into account, of course.

3:45

So it would appear that a project like

3:47

EXFILES has to be very

3:49

sensitive about this balance between

3:52

investigative services and

3:54

fundamental rights. This makes

3:56

me wonder in the project itself,

3:59

there are developers, either software or

4:01

hardware developers. Do they

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encounter ethical issues in

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their day to day work?

4:08

Yeah, of course there are ethical conflicts.

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The possibilities offered by technologies

4:13

are numerous, but one should never forget

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that the acceptability is a major

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issue. In this regard the

4:20

crucial question in a democracy is

4:22

the possible opacity of decryption

4:24

tools. The debate between

4:27

the protection of individual liberties

4:29

and the effectiveness of surveillance

4:31

measures is in fact a very old one.

4:34

Well, I would say it's at least as old

4:36

as the 2001 attacks and

4:38

the concomitant development of digital

4:40

technologies. And this is why

4:42

it is extremely important and interesting

4:45

that such a project does not only bring

4:47

together researchers in the hard sciences

4:51

to be more precise in EXFILES, these

4:53

legal, societal and ethical issues

4:56

involve two teams, the University of Lille,

4:59

with regard to fundamental rights and legal

5:01

practical aspects and Royal Holloway and Bedford

5:03

New College with regard to forensic

5:05

research and its ethical dimensions.

5:09

OK, and so we talk about these ethical

5:11

conflicts. Are you able to share

5:13

some practical examples? Let's

5:16

take a look specifically at EXFILES, which

5:19

is, of course, forensic work on decrypting

5:22

mobile phones. Can you point to anything specific

5:24

in that project?

5:26

Yeah, I'm thinking, for example, of

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the issue of zero day policies

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or the introduction of back doors,

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which should allow law enforcement agencies

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to exploit hardware or software

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vulnerabilities, whether intentional

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or not, in order to carry out their

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investigations. Unfortunately,

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it's difficult to imagine that these

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vulnerabilities could not be used by criminals

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than themselves and thus undermine

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the security of general public users.

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It is therefore a question of finding

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balance between the technical

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capabilities of developers and

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an ethical concern in order

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to guarantee the privacy

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and safety of users. Today,

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cases like EncroChat prove

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that decrypting phones raises

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a lot of questions, this technology

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EncroChat was used by tens

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of thousands of people who were willing

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to pay a lot of money to use sophisticated

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encryption tools. Most

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of those people, one imagines, were

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criminals. But is monitoring

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these thousands of phones targeted

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surveillance or is it mass surveillance?

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This is a legal issue. Proceedings

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are on the way, but it is also an ethical one,

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obviously. Another example

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of ethical problem that maybe

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is interesting is those

6:48

concerning forensic scientists. How

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can we be sure that the evidence

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handled by an expert has

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not been falsified? To what

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extent can justice trust

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an expert? And if it does

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not have all the technical means

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or knowledge to understand the

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evidence he or she presents?

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OK, and you say that in EXFILES there

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are ethical issues coming

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up. Is there a certain way to deal with

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these? Is there a set

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of guidelines that you can use

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within the project to make sure that everyone's on the same

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page and that ethical issues get

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resolved?

7:25

Yeah, in EXFILES ethical

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issues are dealt with in the legal,

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ethical and societal issues

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work package which is work

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package two, and more precisely

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in two specific tasks, which

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will first give rise to an analysis

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of the project's ethical issues

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and then combine the sets of

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constraints previously identified with

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the practical considerations.

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Task 2.2 is entitled forensic

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research, its ethical dimension

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and disclosure criteria. This

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task aims at offering a

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practical, realistic, ethical

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framework for the assessment

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of the forensic research. As an

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example, law enforcement agencies

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might not share their capability

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with the general public as device

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manufacturers can adjust to

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such tools methodologies, making

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them impractical. One major

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ethical challenge is then to

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decide whether the discovery

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of weakness on the targeted devices

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should be made public or not.

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Finally, we'll issue legal

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and ethical recommendations to

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law enforcement agencies, to lawmakers

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and all the stakeholders starting

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in the later stage of the project. This task

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will, for instance, determine the regulation

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regarding the legal access to data

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authorized entities, scenarios

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involved so on, and include

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confidentiality aspects, for

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instance, amount of data involved, duration

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and so on. Again, the

9:00

lines between targeted

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and mass surveillance are sometimes

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blurred and it's important

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to define the appropriate uses.

9:10

This is at the same time

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the legal, societal and ethical

9:14

major issue. And that's why

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all of this is together in the

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task 2.2.

9:20

In your experience, are there any missing

9:22

components or outstanding issues

9:25

when it comes to responsible

9:27

research and innovation in European projects?

9:31

Well, this project is

9:33

for my young team, the second H

9:35

2020 project after

9:38

<INAUDIBLE> and for both of

9:40

these projects, I

9:42

must say that the ethical issues have

9:45

always been given special

9:47

attention. So I would say that this

9:49

point is very satisfying.

9:52

However, in my opinion, there is still

9:54

room for further reflection,

9:57

for instance, on the type of society

10:00

we want in the European Union. Well,

10:02

it is a political question, of course,

10:04

but it's a very interesting issue

10:06

for me. For example, as I

10:08

said before, the balance between the

10:11

desire for security and the desire for privacy

10:13

is changing. And it's fragile

10:17

and the issue of decryption

10:19

illustrates this. But there are many

10:22

other technologies that today raise

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the same question. Facial

10:26

recognition, for instance,

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behavioral prediction algorithms

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and so on. A global

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study about the admissable

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limits of these technologies

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in the European Union would

10:40

really make sense to me.

10:42

OK, so this is something that would reach across

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all sectors dealing

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with security, privacy and

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ethical issues in technology.

10:52

Ethics, law, of

10:55

course.

10:56

Yeah. The idea of a global study would certainly

10:58

make sense at this point and perhaps we

11:00

will be fortunate enough to see this soon. Marcel,

11:03

I feel like these discussions are just the tip

11:05

of the iceberg, but raising awareness

11:08

can sometimes be step wise process,

11:10

and this means that perhaps we

11:12

can chat again. But until that time,

11:14

I'd like to say thanks for telling us about your

11:17

experience with ethics and technology.

11:19

Thank you. It was my pleasure.

11:21

And to our audience, I say thanks for listening

11:23

to the TECHNIKON series on ethics and technology.

11:27

If there is one point we can make

11:29

thus far, it's that ethics issues

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will always be there. There's

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no changing that. So in

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responsible research, which is of course

11:38

the cornerstone in these kinds of larger

11:40

EU projects, institutions

11:43

must prepare in advance. There must

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be a solid ethics plan.

11:47

Partners must be willing to discuss the

11:49

issues. There is quite

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a premium on risk mitigation in this

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area. That

11:56

said, embedding ethics principles

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into technology projects adds

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a certain dimension which could

12:03

really unify partners while benefiting

12:05

the European society as a whole. And

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that's the ultimate goal, right? See

12:11

you next time as we continue our journey into

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the realm we call ethics and

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technology.

12:18

The EXFILES project has received funding

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from the European Union's Horizon 2020

12:22

Research and Innovation Program under

12:24

grant agreement number 883156

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