0:00

Hey, just

0:01

before we begin, I wanted to let you

0:03

know that we have a free advent

0:05

guide available on my website. And

0:07

by that I mean, we have an enormous, gorgeous,

0:09

free giant ebook thing if

0:11

you want it. So it's something

0:13

to help us grow around our days and hope

0:16

and love this Christmas season.

0:18

So if that's something you want, go

0:20

to kate bowler dot com slash

0:22

advent, and it's all yours.

0:31

One of the weird things about trying to change

0:33

is that sometimes nobody else

0:35

wants to, not even a little bit

0:38

at all. holiday season could

0:40

be a strange reminder of that because

0:42

it's that time again when we get

0:44

together with the people who might know

0:47

exactly what buttons to push. or

0:49

topic to broach that brings us

0:52

right back to who we were as kids for

0:54

better or for worse. that

0:57

uncles inappropriate Facebook posts

1:00

or the in laws passive aggression

1:02

is just aggressive at this point. or

1:05

a parent who never wants to talk about their

1:07

real stuff, like their addiction,

1:09

or the divorce, or how lonely

1:12

anyone feels. We

1:15

can find ourselves stuck in

1:17

our histories, especially

1:19

our family histories. And

1:22

we might need a little boost to

1:24

confront dysfunction,

1:27

speak the truth,

1:29

and find trust people to

1:31

know how to change. I'm

1:34

Kate Boller, and today on everything

1:37

happens, we're going to look backward

1:39

in order to move forward. Backward

1:42

at our family dynamics of how

1:44

we inherited stories of love

1:47

and loss. from our parents

1:49

or grandparents or maybe

1:51

even great grandparents.

1:54

How sometimes generational divides

1:56

make it difficult to express what we're going

1:58

through. And how locating

2:00

ourselves in the webs

2:02

of our families might actually

2:05

give us a little permission to change.

2:08

And my guest today is the

2:10

perfect person to help us

2:12

do just that.

2:17

Julia Samuel is a British psychotherapist.

2:20

And over the last three years, she has

2:22

worked for the NHS and then in

2:24

private practice. And she is the author

2:27

of gorgeous and practical books

2:29

like this two shall pass,

2:31

grief works, and the one I am

2:33

so excited to talk to her about today.

2:36

Every family has a story.

2:39

Twilio, my friend. Thank you so

2:41

much for doing this would be the day.

2:42

I am so pleased

2:44

to be seeing you. We fought a friendship

2:46

in thirty minutes. Actually,

2:48

this is longer because

2:50

I've read your book that took, like, three hours.

2:52

So it is funny how you

2:54

couldn't know someone who

2:56

really know us. That's so true.

2:59

Thinking through someone else's brain

3:00

is such a wonderful way

3:03

to know someone and you

3:05

are someone with so many rich categories

3:08

for thinking about the

3:10

bigger stories that we carry.

3:13

This new book you have is

3:15

so wonderful and challenging

3:17

and motivating and sort of horrifying

3:20

because it's Well,

3:22

listen, it pushes me to think

3:25

therapy is a kind of solo act.

3:27

Like, let me tell you about my story

3:29

and whatever I think of everyone

3:30

else, but

3:32

Your book looks not just individuals, but

3:34

families. And it made me imagine

3:37

people as a web

3:39

Is that a is that a good metaphor? Or

3:42

how do you imagine it? I think it

3:43

really is a good metaphor because

3:47

I mean, if we're lucky, we

3:50

are part of a family and

3:52

we need family.

3:54

They are the bedrock of our lives. when

3:57

they drive us mad and when they're

3:59

amazing and

3:59

celebrate us. And when we really hate

4:02

them, we need the most

4:03

probably. And

4:06

I think we've spent too

4:08

long focusing on the individual and

4:11

not enough about a web

4:13

or a network. We need

4:16

really lots of good relationships to

4:18

thrive, so that you know, just

4:20

leaning on ourselves isn't enough,

4:22

not even when times are good, but particularly

4:24

when times are hard.

4:25

And that's such a deeply American story

4:28

just like an open field with an

4:30

individual and all of

4:32

his bootstraps. Like, there's

4:34

there's so many stories that we tell,

4:36

especially in American culture, that celebrate

4:38

that kind of hearty

4:41

loneliness.

4:41

And

4:42

it's owned by every coming beyond

4:44

that. Isn't it? It's like, yes. Getting

4:46

on your horse with your

4:49

gun and your hat and and

4:51

just going Get it up. In

4:54

English, like, give it up. By the

4:56

way, it would be in quite a posh voice. It

4:58

would be kicked on. Kick on.

5:00

Really? So

5:03

that's the same thing. Just keep going.

5:06

Just clear going.

5:07

Don't ask for help. Don't make

5:09

a fuss. Don't make me feel bad because

5:11

you're I can't help you. Just

5:15

glide past me so that I'm not

5:19

you

5:19

know, demanded of or made to feel

5:21

uncomfortable. But at the same time, you're

5:23

really lonely in Chile up there in that

5:25

horse. That's

5:27

great. I imagine the

5:30

Canadian version would just be like a deep

5:32

awkward politeness. Like

5:34

just a small wave if you happen

5:36

to be As queen that she went past

5:38

it. Yes.

5:40

That's right. That's

5:43

right. Yeah.

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Okay.

7:07

Now back to today's conversation.

7:12

If

7:12

you're gonna start thinking of yourself as

7:14

being part of that bigger story that

7:16

you're calling us

7:17

to, like, what's the right posture to

7:19

begin in? I people

7:21

say, you know, and then I discovered my

7:23

parents were just people. And I

7:25

imagine when they say that

7:27

that they are beginning

7:30

to experience like maybe

7:31

curiosity or there's some

7:34

kind of thing that cracks them open.

7:36

What kind of

7:37

How does one begin, I suppose?

7:40

One of the ways in is

7:43

to think about it with curiosity

7:45

like you know,

7:47

what I'm feeling and how I am

7:50

and what I understand and the beliefs

7:52

I hold, they didn't

7:54

start with me. like,

7:56

look up and look across

7:58

and look and

7:59

see what has been passed

8:02

on from generation to generation.

8:04

and what am I holding that is no

8:06

longer really mine. With this idea that

8:09

the difficulty or the pain

8:11

of one generation, if this isn't

8:13

dealt with that generation.

8:14

regime

8:15

The coping mechanisms or

8:18

even the genetics get

8:20

passed down to the next generation till someone's

8:23

prepared to feel the pain. And

8:25

so that we

8:25

are the product

8:28

of many

8:29

stories and to the strap

8:31

that in my book is how we inherit love and

8:33

loss. How we deal

8:36

with

8:36

love, which is a thing that matters most world,

8:39

but also that life is difficult

8:40

and challenging and scary and

8:43

maddening. We

8:45

learn from the adults and adults, and they learn it

8:47

from their adults. And

8:48

we need to kind of really

8:50

begin to see the untold

8:52

stories, the secrets, the lies

8:55

because my one of my biggest

8:57

things is that what we often

9:00

do as a way of

9:02

protecting other people or protecting our

9:04

children or even protecting ourselves

9:06

in the end becomes an armor that

9:09

keeps other

9:09

people out and you disconnected from

9:11

yourself. As a

9:12

historian, I'm always like, because

9:15

the love to

9:16

imagine that anything is new, but it

9:19

does feel kind of

9:21

modern right

9:22

now

9:23

revolutionary in some ways to

9:25

to

9:26

talk about that kind of transparency across

9:29

generations. Right? Like, I

9:31

imagine many of us have parents and grandparents

9:33

where it can be very difficult to

9:35

approach

9:36

emotional subjects if if

9:39

they

9:39

have a very different set of emotional

9:41

expectations.

9:42

they endured war, they

9:45

endured depressions.

9:47

So is it so first of all, is it

9:49

modern to want this kind of transparency?

9:52

And

9:52

how do we navigate the sort

9:55

of

9:55

generational divides we might come

9:57

up against if we wanted to talk this

9:59

way? I

10:00

mean, not being as much of a of

10:03

an historian as you. I don't

10:05

know, but what I imagine is

10:07

that what we choose to hide and not

10:10

talk about changes rather

10:12

than kind of

10:14

us having full transparency. So

10:17

The Victorian, for instance, were really good at

10:19

death. Queen Victoria was the

10:21

poster woman for death. She wore

10:23

black until she was, you know,

10:25

until she died. But they never

10:27

talked about sex. Sex was

10:29

completely disgusting and unvoiced. You

10:31

know, there's a there's a a negation

10:34

in her a a line you want to

10:36

take of, you know, promiscuous honesty,

10:38

which is cruelty, like, saying, you know,

10:40

I

10:40

hate that. happier way. I think

10:42

it's ugly, which is unnecessary, to

10:45

important truths that we need to

10:47

share so that we don't carry them

10:49

alone. but also when

10:51

we are suffering

10:54

and

10:55

normally people that suffer are hurting

10:57

and not their best selves. That's the

10:59

awful way that we're made assuming is

11:01

like when you're you're kind of

11:03

best happy self, you draw people

11:06

towards you, but when you're

11:08

really had a terrible news

11:10

or you're really worried about something. You

11:12

you tend to close down a bit because

11:14

you're nervous, you're angry, you're

11:17

kind of not your full open

11:19

self. I mean, I think you are one of

11:21

the rareities actually because you seem to

11:23

be able to expand your emotional

11:25

width. identity

11:28

world, whatever's going on. But I think you do.

11:30

But I think it's unusual that often

11:32

we kind of retreat in armor

11:34

ourselves and whatever armor we use

11:36

individually, which is very sort of

11:38

subjective. Or and we lash

11:40

out. Like, if I'm really upset

11:42

about something, I'm not kind and I'm understanding

11:44

impatient. I'm impatient and pretty horrible.

11:47

Yes.

11:48

Yeah. It

11:49

is I remember hearing once.

11:51

I think it

11:52

was in like a history of childhood that

11:55

one of the beautiful,

11:57

surprising I think, spiritually

11:59

useful,

11:59

but also evolutionarily useful,

12:02

things about childhood being the sort of

12:04

generational reset button is that

12:06

they begin to ask questions that we get

12:08

told

12:08

to no longer ask, and their

12:11

curiosity kind of can break through some

12:13

of that sort of calcified generational

12:16

differences between us because thinking about

12:18

the incredible immense

12:20

devastating suffering of my grandparents

12:22

would or

12:25

tuberculosis, emotions sanitariums,

12:27

harry and foster

12:29

care for my father. I mean, just

12:32

devastation. And yet, they're when

12:34

they married

12:34

it, it was so it was

12:37

very tidy. And I

12:38

didn't think they have the luxury to

12:40

feel. So if

12:41

they were of the generation, which is my parents,

12:43

generation, your grandparents, where

12:46

they really all they could do

12:48

is five and get on. There wasn't the knowledge, but

12:50

there also wasn't the emotional capacity

12:52

in society. Everyone was

12:55

greeting someone. Everyone was

12:57

fighting a war. And so they

12:59

just had to survive and multiply

13:01

and shut down what they felt

13:03

and keep moving. I

13:04

think what's different. Nah. This, of course,

13:07

isn't

13:07

for everyone by any means

13:09

because there are there is sort of

13:11

desperate

13:11

in inequality's But

13:14

for those of us that are lucky enough, we

13:16

do have the luxury to feel.

13:18

We have the luxury -- Yeah. --

13:20

to ask for help

13:23

and to say that I

13:25

don't understand what's going on

13:27

in a way that

13:29

just bought not possible

13:31

even probably thirty five years

13:33

ago, forty years ago.

13:34

Yeah. Your

13:35

book has these incredible case

13:38

studies of families learning to

13:40

negotiate that dynamic. Can you give me an

13:42

example

13:42

of if someone

13:44

who's acute pain like

13:46

wired them to embed themselves

13:48

and maybe they had

13:49

to engage in a story that was their

13:52

parents or their grandparents. So

13:54

one

13:54

of the stories was this amazing

13:57

family that where the father

13:59

had died

13:59

by suicide. He'd shot

14:02

himself. It was called the Ross family, and

14:03

I met the mom and their three

14:05

siblings and the three her

14:07

three daughters who were siblings. And

14:11

he

14:11

had he was an Italian policeman

14:13

and he had shot himself forty years

14:15

before. And the

14:17

thing about trauma is that

14:20

the residue of trauma is

14:22

alive and present in your brain

14:25

today as it was forty years

14:27

before. So his death had never been

14:28

processed because

14:31

as one of the things one

14:33

of the things the the mother who's incredibly

14:35

brave to do this therapy with her

14:37

daughters said,

14:38

I never did. ask how

14:40

was it for you? She never did

14:43

ask her children because it was unbearable

14:45

to know the answer. It's

14:48

still you can't quite look at your

14:50

children suffering when you can't fix

14:52

it. But of course, it

14:54

meant that she

14:56

also then had to shut down because she had

14:58

to go and earned money, and

15:00

she was traumatized and furious.

15:02

They would

15:03

now have forty years later challenge and

15:06

challenging themselves to deal

15:07

with trauma because it had developed lots

15:09

of difficult babies. They had

15:12

addiction problems and all sorts of behavioral

15:14

problems. in

15:15

the men they sort of chose not

15:17

in other

15:18

ways. But what happened

15:21

was as

15:23

they were beginning to tell their

15:25

story. They

15:27

didn't just have one narrative each.

15:29

They had to collect dib

15:31

narrative together, the mother story was

15:33

included all three sisters different

15:35

stories until they had

15:37

a coherent

15:38

narrative that made

15:40

sense for themselves that

15:42

so much had been hidden and it was

15:45

I missed this or I did that wrong

15:47

or felt guilty. And then when they had

15:49

it all together, it allowed them to

15:51

have their full kind

15:54

of acceptance of it. And also,

15:57

Yeah.

15:57

Is it like them to rebuild the relationship

15:59

with their dad?

16:01

Because a a bit like your parents,

16:02

they they'd had this narrative that

16:05

dad killed himself for us

16:06

and poor dad and wasn't that

16:09

great. And one of the sisters said,

16:11

everyone keeps saying how great dad was, but he

16:13

shot himself and he was in our colleagues. So I

16:15

mean, really? Yeah.

16:17

Yeah. But but

16:19

in naming the

16:20

true positives,

16:21

they could then

16:23

they

16:24

wrote in this wonderful letter, the three

16:26

of them, because I said to them, you know, they

16:28

would love for the person then medias, and they

16:30

would like can't have a relationship with him.

16:32

I only got one photograph and

16:34

but over time they talk together and they wrote

16:37

this such a beautiful letter to him

16:39

because, of course,

16:39

he was still very much in them and

16:41

part of them. Mhmm. And

16:43

they could see themselves in him. They had his eyes

16:45

or his center of humor. And

16:48

so they healed by telling

16:50

painful truth, which is that really

16:52

what you talk about is that by

16:54

facing and

16:56

not hiding from painful

16:58

truth, we

16:59

can't fix the reality of what happened,

17:02

but we can learn to

17:04

connect and even

17:05

love and allow ourselves.

17:08

Yeah. the

17:09

freedom from it. It traps us and the imprisoned us

17:11

when we don't. Yes.

17:14

And that they

17:15

could do that work rebuilding

17:17

a story that they could then live

17:20

inside must have been so powerful for

17:22

them. Yeah.

17:22

Especially when things are when things are so

17:24

far gone, I imagine it's much easier just

17:27

to say. I mean, that happens so

17:29

long in the past. Let me tell you about

17:31

the relationship I have that's driving

17:33

me crazy now. but the hard

17:36

excavation must have been

17:38

very

17:38

intense. It was really intense,

17:40

but it actually only took, like, eight

17:43

sessions And the thing that

17:45

is so powerful

17:47

is it renewed their relationship with

17:49

their mother and it protected

17:52

their children. So

17:53

one of the things, if you want

17:54

to kind of think about not passing

17:57

down inherited trauma,

17:59

kind of deal with it

18:02

in your lifetime because you will pass otherwise,

18:04

shot, you know, suicide's like a

18:06

cluster bomb. It's put shots

18:08

of agony in and

18:10

everybody in different places. But by looking at

18:12

the charts and naming them and

18:15

having a clearer understanding, it

18:17

means you don't take

18:19

the flinching and the injury of the shard to

18:22

your end children?

18:24

What do

18:26

you suggest for people

18:29

who have incomplete stories

18:31

and don't have enough information

18:33

to piece it together in

18:35

a

18:35

way that's satisfying. Mystery

18:38

is sort of can be

18:39

a terrible. Maybe we just

18:41

have to grieve that mystery.

18:44

So it's

18:44

so complex. I think what we don't

18:47

know can be the piece of the

18:49

jigsaw that drives us completely mad,

18:51

where where our imagination

18:53

can run riot, and we

18:56

can putting that

18:59

limitless images, stories, blame,

19:02

guilt, all the what ifs, you know,

19:04

that that can give you and that

19:06

can be utterly crazy making. And

19:08

so the work that I do

19:10

with people is you

19:13

do have to grieve what you don't

19:15

know. not that you can ever fix it, but you

19:17

the paradox for theory of change, if

19:19

you can, at some point,

19:22

kind of, know that you're never

19:24

gonna know this and you

19:27

letting your imagination kind of go to

19:29

it is driving you nuts that you can maybe

19:31

draw an image that represents it,

19:33

name it, you know,

19:35

talk

19:35

about the ending of the not

19:37

knowing as part of your breathing.

19:39

And then

19:40

that can free

19:41

you to begin to

19:44

address

19:44

what what it is that

19:46

is the

19:47

underline is the main is the principal

19:49

thing that's happened to you

19:51

because the the not knowing is can

19:54

overtake the prince pool

19:56

event. When we're

19:57

trying to understand our

19:59

bigger family web

20:01

and maybe especially

20:04

those in that system who have

20:07

been

20:08

unkind, maybe untrue,

20:11

unfaithful, I mean,

20:13

maybe

20:13

the reason why we're going to therapy in the first

20:15

place. I'm wondering if we

20:18

could talk about the limits of

20:20

this kind of empathy. because I

20:22

I remember I had an

20:24

interesting conversation with Tara

20:26

Westover. Do you remember her? She wrote that

20:28

book educated? It says Yes. I

20:30

love that book. It's Mommy.

20:32

It was

20:32

a pushy moment or a Yes. Mommy, so

20:35

wanted to look up. she -- Yeah. --

20:37

experienced a

20:37

tremendous amount of physical and psychological abuse

20:39

as a child. And we were talking

20:41

about when people say of families

20:44

oh, they did their best. And

20:47

I said, well, that drives me insane. As

20:49

if we've sort of taken a survey and we know

20:51

that all fifty

20:52

two moms in this

20:54

situation quote, try their best. Five on

20:56

five,

20:56

five stars. And and she

20:59

said, oh, I actually I do say that.

21:01

I say, they

21:02

tried their best and it was devastating.

21:04

They tried their best

21:05

and it was tragic. And

21:07

I was I was frank

21:09

very moved by that. Like,

21:11

how do we

21:12

frame the the limits of

21:15

empathy,

21:15

maybe? there's

21:17

the winnicot term, which

21:18

is, you know, as a parent, is the

21:20

good enough parent, which I think carb

21:23

is a lot basis, certainly with me

21:25

as being a failing parent. But

21:27

I think when you've

21:29

had a really abusive difficult

21:31

childhood. In some

21:34

ways, the

21:34

hate does you more harm and the

21:37

blame

21:37

because it gets inside you

21:40

and it contaminates every other

21:42

feeling that you have. So that

21:44

if you can find a way

21:46

of giving yourself

21:49

a

21:49

a story, you know, the

21:51

the emotions that we have if you can allow

21:53

yourself to feel the legitimate feelings

21:55

and and allow yourself to be angry

21:58

and upset and betrayed and

21:59

all of those things. Yeah. I'd

22:02

also kind

22:02

of find a way of

22:04

saying you know, they were given

22:06

who they were, the history they

22:08

had, and what they knew, they

22:12

did the best they could. And

22:14

that best was devastating for me.

22:16

Kind of

22:16

does cover it because

22:18

if you just keep blaming

22:21

them and keep hating them, it

22:23

keeps you tracked as well

22:25

keeps you in prison. I didn't know if

22:27

the word

22:27

is forgiveness, but I think it's living

22:30

with and

22:31

allowing for. It's like the accommodation

22:33

of both there were some good

22:35

bits, probably all of the bad

22:36

bits and that you have to allow for

22:39

it. it

22:40

sounds like there is tremendous amount of

22:43

possibility

22:43

in learning to

22:44

rewrite these

22:47

stories. you

22:48

know, emotions are transmitters of

22:51

information that run through our

22:53

body to give us information basically

22:55

to know whether we're safe or

22:57

in danger. and

22:59

also whether we're in a good

23:01

place or not. And

23:04

the actual pure emotion doesn't last

23:06

that long. It lasts about ninety

23:09

seconds. But we can deal with that

23:11

emotion apparently. I

23:13

mean, But what we do -- Not

23:15

the emotion is

23:17

we turn it into

23:19

the

23:20

attack against ourselves. of

23:22

other people, and then we

23:24

do get trapped in it. Yeah.

23:26

And then it becomes lots of

23:28

other things. And

23:30

often we do what I cause

23:33

it to have a shitty committee, then we're failing

23:35

because we feel so awful

23:37

about it.

23:38

And so this one feeling of

23:40

shame then becomes useless.

23:43

I can't do anything. Everyone hates

23:46

me. So the story you tell yourself about the feeling

23:48

is so much worse than the actual feeling. And

23:50

the feeling is just information that if you

23:52

can name it, allow it

23:53

through your body, acknowledge

23:56

it,

23:56

and breathe, Then you have

23:59

choices.

23:59

Then you

24:00

have choices life. Okay. So

24:03

I feel full of shame.

24:04

Where's this fraud. What

24:07

what do I know about this? Is this

24:09

a familiar trope? Is this real

24:11

you know, what's going on? And then what do I

24:13

need

24:13

to do? What should I do?

24:16

Yeah. Do I just Do I need

24:18

to learn from it? I like

24:20

the idea though of, like, a ninety

24:22

second

24:22

feeling. I'm

24:23

really into that. Like I mean, I

24:25

bet it feels

24:25

like five hours. If I had like

24:27

a

24:27

clock, I had a stopwatch, though, for

24:30

like shame. it

24:31

would be a wonderful thing to be like, I'm just gonna

24:34

give

24:34

myself this many seconds

24:36

and then see.

24:39

it's

24:39

the information that

24:42

we allow

24:44

the feelings to

24:47

travel through our body and if

24:49

we do pile stuff on top of

24:51

them, because like when I felt

24:53

shame. I felt shame last week,

24:55

I

24:56

went to bed feeling quite

24:58

good about something I've done, and then I woke up

25:00

feeling full of shame that I'd done it all wrong.

25:02

You know, awful feeling

25:05

that And, you know, that everybody

25:07

else

25:07

saw it and I I was late to recognize

25:09

how useless I was. And

25:12

And, you know, what

25:13

I do with that is go into this

25:16

awful feeling in my body. What I will

25:18

literally do anything to

25:20

avoid. Anything.

25:21

Yeah. So I, you know, I

25:23

get busy. I

25:25

start emailing for all the

25:27

time. There's

25:28

this horrible contaminating kind

25:31

of animal eating into

25:33

me. But once

25:35

I could restock

25:37

and and go, you

25:41

know. So Shane

25:43

Telsrey, I hate you

25:45

fuck her, but come through.

25:47

There you go. There

25:50

is a sub thing that

25:52

happens

25:52

that changes because it's not keep having to

25:54

push up to tell me. Yeah.

25:57

yeah Yeah. That's such a good word too

25:59

like

25:59

that bubble in pushing up feeling.

26:02

That's exactly right. That's why

26:03

I was just latching onto the temporaryness

26:06

that you're describing

26:07

with feeling, emotional feeling. That's

26:09

it. It's a good it's

26:11

a good reminder. in

26:13

thinking especially about, like, tackling

26:16

a complicated problem, a

26:18

me problem, a family problem, it

26:20

feels very uphill. it

26:22

would be nice

26:23

to remind myself that whatever

26:25

comes up, it will not last

26:28

forever. It's hard

26:28

to know how to

26:31

frame generational trauma sometimes for that reason.

26:33

because it

26:34

it feels sort of like someone just

26:36

told you that

26:37

your backpack was full of

26:39

rocks. and you thought you got to

26:41

get sort

26:41

of was was your

26:44

purse for the day? I mean,

26:46

like, with all of these things, it's your mindset.

26:48

Isn't it? It's like you've been walking around

26:50

ignorance carrying rocks.

26:52

Like you didn't know

26:53

why you felt so heavy and

26:54

why your shoulders hurt.

26:57

and why certain

26:58

things just always get the the

27:00

cheese

27:00

crunch. Exactly.

27:04

And then suddenly realize

27:08

that your grandfather died by suicide

27:10

and he was never told and that

27:12

all these coping behaviors done

27:14

to cover

27:14

it up. Yeah. and that's part of it. It's like, oh,

27:17

these aren't my rocks. Hi.

27:19

Hang on. Yeah. I can get rid of some

27:21

of these rocks. They're not mine. Let's

27:23

take that off. I mean, I don't need to

27:25

ever

27:25

as simple as that. But

27:28

I think it can really

27:29

help. But there isn't something wrong

27:31

with you. This isn't just

27:33

you that we are all part of

27:35

something and we're caring. Our stuff and other

27:37

people stuff. I mean, we get a lot

27:39

of people to help us unload and also

27:41

we need to know the truth as much as

27:44

we can ever know. Yes.

27:46

And one of the truth is

27:48

that not everything happens for a reason. Life

27:51

is having random. I

27:53

love you.

27:54

Does it? I mean, is

27:56

random. It happens for no reason.

27:59

Certainly. We can ever make sense

28:02

of. We can ever

28:04

give ourselves a proper reason. It just

28:07

does happen out of the

28:09

blue

28:09

randomly. Yes. And sometimes it's

28:12

one person, lots of terrible things, sometimes

28:14

only good things happen to some

28:16

good people,

28:18

which I can't really fully understand

28:21

that either, to be absolutely honest.

28:23

All of it. You know,

28:25

you look

28:26

at these families. Sometimes I look at other families

28:28

and I kinda think,

28:29

oh, how come?

28:32

There is literally nothing.

28:35

As

28:35

far as I know, there

28:37

is breaking

28:38

your day. And I I love

28:40

them. And also, it's like, oh,

28:43

come. Exactly.

28:44

Yes. Meanwhile,

28:47

I'm busy putting terrible things in the coherence

28:50

machine and inventing a story that never

28:52

flatters me. No.

28:55

It's not happening. Yes.

28:58

Is So

29:00

your honest stance does flat to you.

29:03

because honest d. Shines

29:04

are light. Right? And lines

29:06

are

29:06

illuminating and lights

29:09

bring glow, and they

29:11

bring people. and

29:12

that's what you do. You gather because

29:14

of your honesty and your humility

29:16

with your honesty to say

29:18

hard things and they also feel

29:21

hard things other people can

29:23

then face their own and look at their own

29:25

and they so you

29:27

can see how you do. It is true.

29:29

It's it's truly a

29:31

known credible gift. That's

29:33

so nice. But I

29:35

think what you wrote about the

29:39

relationships that heal us

29:42

made complete sense to me

29:44

of how the last few years have

29:46

gone. Only when I practice

29:48

being honest that I could get over the

29:51

loneliness. And then solving

29:53

loneliness to me has been

29:55

the biggest I mean, there being no

29:57

solution to almost

29:57

anything, but but at least like a

29:59

beautiful self

30:01

to the worst parts of being a

30:04

person. You wrote this absolutely

30:06

gorgeous moving thing about, like,

30:09

it only takes one person. Can you

30:11

tell me more about

30:13

that?

30:13

Well, I just think, you

30:16

know, the definition of being

30:18

loved is being known, known

30:20

as you are on the

30:22

inside. and

30:22

how you feel yourself to

30:25

be with all of your frailties

30:27

and fault lines

30:28

and strengths and

30:30

Greek

30:32

capacities and brilliance. I think

30:34

we can ignore good

30:35

things as well, but they need to be

30:38

allowed. And that

30:38

when someone fully sees you

30:41

with all of that and

30:43

you're known. That is what love

30:45

is and that they don't turn away

30:47

and they don't trans wash you down

30:49

or big you up, Paul, when you're looked

30:51

in in the eye

30:51

and known and love for that is an

30:54

amazing thing. And I you know,

30:56

one person is

30:58

really enough.

31:00

But ideally,

31:01

we do want a bit of a village.

31:03

You know, we don't die.

31:05

More is better.

31:07

More is better. Yeah. And that's

31:10

what was so awful about the

31:12

pandemic was that people who suffered

31:14

suffered more in

31:16

the pandemic because of that isolation. Yeah. I

31:18

mean, that that really caused

31:21

real harm, I think, real cycle of --

31:23

Yeah. -- harm to to millions of people.

31:26

Yeah. That's right. The

31:27

thinning of all these things

31:30

that hold us up, the cutting of all of our

31:32

puppet strings.

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You write

32:42

very lovingly about

32:44

a family who is trying

32:46

to say goodbye. It was

32:48

family trying to say goodbye in the

32:51

impossibility of losing a parent with

32:53

cancer, and you were

32:55

walking them to the edge of a difficult

32:57

grief in and impossible

32:59

moment of

33:01

pandemic isolation.

33:03

How did you help them live

33:05

inside of a story that was going to be in

33:08

feel incomplete in such a big

33:11

way. Yeah.

33:11

I think he stood in the act, by

33:14

the way. So he's

33:15

Oh, Sally. Yeah.

33:18

I think what I offered

33:20

why

33:22

was the space for

33:25

him

33:25

and then being

33:28

a third,

33:28

but, you know or in fact, I was, like, the

33:31

sixth person. But being someone who's outside

33:33

the family, I think

33:36

that there is something about having

33:38

a witness who isn't in emotionally

33:40

invested with you.

33:43

There is a it's

33:45

like

33:46

holding power that

33:49

allows them then to have very

33:52

difficult conversations

33:54

where they could hear each other because they had me

33:56

to kinda keep them

33:58

safe or to balance them. They weren't

33:59

responsible for each other's

34:02

distress or

34:03

-- Yeah. trying to

34:05

protect each other from

34:06

the pain that they were facing. And

34:08

I think in voicing,

34:10

invoicing their

34:13

fear. They were also very

34:15

clearly voicing their

34:17

love. And that

34:19

for the for the

34:21

dad is what mattered most and

34:24

that

34:26

really supported him.

34:26

I mean, he said this is

34:28

the worst time in my

34:30

life. but also the best time

34:32

in my life. That strange

34:34

kind of duality.

34:36

because he really

34:38

knew he was hurt.

34:42

That's

34:42

such a that's

34:43

such a beautiful word

34:46

for the person

34:48

who feels like they are the bomb that goes

34:50

off they are the one who

34:52

is bringing the trauma in

34:54

the front door and

34:56

and nothing can solve it.

34:58

How

34:59

do you manage it?

35:00

Remember trying to ask my

35:02

dad

35:03

if, you know,

35:06

parents have this overwhelming desire.

35:07

It's like the first thing

35:10

on their mind if they see their kid in

35:12

pain.

35:12

How can

35:14

I take this off to me? Like,

35:15

how can I just

35:18

absorb this? I remember

35:20

how how much work I was doing in trying to

35:22

wrap things up. It was just

35:23

it was such a rough time

35:25

that it just kept going. It was,

35:27

like, the first two years of endless, you know,

35:29

almost dying,

35:29

almost almost almost

35:32

all the time. And

35:33

so I I was I was kind

35:35

of caught in that push

35:38

pull

35:38

feeling where I kept trying to sort

35:40

of, like, pump the brakes for them, give everybody

35:44

closure before That

35:45

was dumb living. And

35:47

remember the first time I lost in particular,

35:49

I'm in South

35:52

America. Yeah. then I just had

35:53

some ugly terrible fight with somebody at one point, my

35:55

sister. And and I was like,

35:58

oh, I'm I'm so sorry. I'm

35:59

just I'm so sorry. And my dad

36:02

said, oh, hon, I

36:03

would so much rather you than

36:05

the memory of you. And

36:07

what I heard in that was I would so much

36:10

rather

36:10

the terrible complexity

36:13

than the abstract

36:16

perfection. and

36:17

that gave me a

36:19

lot of

36:21

permission not to

36:24

not to sort of be in pain

36:27

politely, but to just let the try

36:29

to let the weight

36:30

of what I

36:32

was. and was going through it

36:34

to be something that

36:35

more than I would have to

36:38

carry.

36:39

yeah Yeah. Yeah.

36:40

And that in

36:41

trying to protect them, you would

36:43

also exclude yourself and

36:46

each other. and there'd

36:48

be that presence of

36:50

absence even when you were alive.

36:52

Yeah. So

36:54

it's it's better to be

36:56

a messy fighting person who's

37:00

real. I

37:02

mean, I my

37:04

daughter had cancer. And, you

37:06

know, we we had some very

37:08

difficult conversations when she was

37:12

so angry with me at times because I was

37:14

trying to fix up or interfere. And

37:16

she's fought, you know, she was thirty

37:20

eight. but it was like I was scared to the nursery teacher and out

37:22

someone being mean to her

37:24

and I was trying to sought out

37:27

doctors or

37:28

And, yeah, that

37:30

wasn't

37:30

the right thing to do. But, you

37:32

know, but not our

37:34

best self. I mean, that that not even that.

37:36

It's not

37:36

not that's the wrong word. it's

37:39

really painful and difficult. But you really

37:40

-- Yes. -- there's

37:41

an ongoingness to love

37:43

and pain, which just

37:44

doesn't really lend itself to

37:48

Knowing exactly what to do.

37:50

It's a rescue. It feels like Yes.

37:54

Yes.

37:56

Yes. And

37:56

that whole idea of love being a soft

37:59

skill is not.

37:59

It's really

38:02

really hard. and

38:04

it is the only thing that matters. It's the best medicine. Right? But it

38:06

is not the soft skin. Yes. It

38:09

requires -- Yes. unbelievable

38:12

endurance, patience,

38:15

fury, rage, you know? because when you

38:17

feel me, you feel

38:19

me, So if you have joy

38:21

one end and the bandwidth of love,

38:23

you're gonna feel fury as well. You know,

38:25

it's wide. It's as

38:28

big as Yes. You can't. When you

38:29

write, we

38:31

only fix

38:33

what we face. it

38:35

makes me think you are a

38:38

a source of deep

38:40

courage, poof, especially for those of

38:42

us. Low these many of

38:44

us who are not exactly sure how

38:46

to find a richer

38:48

story that includes our family to

38:50

help ease the burden of whatever

38:52

going through. So thank you, Julia. You are

38:54

a you are a source of

38:56

tremendous wisdom to me, and I

38:58

am

38:58

so glad that I met

39:00

you. I

39:02

am so glad I met you. I've loved our

39:04

conversation and your work and all

39:06

that you're doing, and I really

39:08

take my hands off to you.

39:11

you, Lisa.

39:13

Thank

39:14

you. You

39:26

might be still listening

39:27

and thinking to yourself.

39:29

Yes, Kate. This sounds

39:31

great. Must be

39:34

nice. Except what if we never get the apologies we

39:36

deserve, or the acknowledgment

39:38

we need, or

39:39

the relationships that we

39:42

hoped for. This

39:44

community knows all too well

39:46

what other people forget,

39:48

that sometimes we don't get

39:50

the happy endings we hoped for

39:52

or that we worked for. Sometimes

39:54

other people just

39:56

choose not to

39:59

change. There's

40:01

a theme though in Julia's

40:04

book

40:04

that I thought you might really like. It's

40:06

about how we need one

40:08

safe person. Just one. one

40:12

person in our lives, they may

40:14

be

40:14

related to us or not, but

40:16

that person can help us adapt

40:18

to

40:18

the traumas we've experienced. we

40:21

need one person who we can trust to tell

40:23

us the truth, to be reliable narrators

40:25

of our story. who

40:28

can help us see it clearly and

40:30

know we are loved, loved,

40:32

loved, regardless because

40:36

you in all

40:36

your actual problems and actual pain

40:39

are far better than

40:41

any idealized version of

40:44

you. and

40:44

maybe that is the exact honesty that might

40:47

offer us and our families

40:49

the freedom we

40:52

long for. I

40:53

wanted to close today's episode with

40:55

a blessing from our very

40:57

new book of blessings. It's

41:00

called the lives we actually have. And the

41:02

book comes out of February. So if

41:05

you wanna preorder a copy, the

41:07

link is in the show notes or at kat bolder dot

41:10

com slash blessings

41:11

book. And

41:13

that's exactly about what we're talking

41:16

about today. It's a

41:17

blessing for when your

41:20

family disappoints

41:22

you. God, I

41:24

am

41:25

angry and hurt and

41:27

so incredibly sad.

41:30

The very

41:30

people who were supposed to love

41:33

me and know me best. have let

41:35

me down. I don't know if be able to

41:36

let this go or find a

41:39

way forward. I'm losing my

41:41

sense

41:41

of home. and

41:44

the reality of it fills me with a kind of fear. However

41:47

big, however

41:48

small, this pain

41:52

always feels

41:52

unforgivable. I know

41:54

they're only human, really. I

41:56

know. But their mistakes feel

41:58

like they echo through me.

42:01

They strike a

42:02

painful chord that rings on and on,

42:05

and I feel convinced all at

42:07

once that I am not loved,

42:10

not known, not safe.

42:12

I

42:12

feel small all over

42:16

again. So

42:16

bless me god. When tears prick it

42:19

my eyes and I feel lost to

42:21

myself. Bring me

42:23

home. Remind

42:25

me

42:25

of the places you've brought

42:28

me, the

42:28

person I've become, when

42:30

I feel your light and peace.

42:33

forgive them for

42:34

me when I can't

42:36

and send some grace for

42:38

this moment to keep my heart

42:41

from breaking or my temper from rising or

42:43

any sentence starting with

42:46

you always

42:46

we You

42:48

remember me

42:49

when I am a stranger to

42:51

myself and an outsider at

42:53

my own

42:54

address. Alright,

42:56

my loves.

42:57

Bless you. May you find

43:00

your safe person and

43:02

find some grace for yourself and

43:04

others? as

43:06

we carry

43:07

our stories of love loss and disappointment

43:10

together. See

43:12

you soon.

43:23

A really

43:25

special thank you to our generous

43:27

partners who make this work possible.

43:29

Lily endowment, the Duke

43:31

endowment, Duke divinity school and

43:33

leadership to my wonderful team, Jessica

43:36

Ritchie, Harriet

43:38

harriet