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Visit Venmo.me, me, slash, back,

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term supply. term supply, we've ended the eternity of

1:06

so-called diversity, equity, and inclusion policies.

1:08

White people are the largest group

1:11

of people that believe that they're

1:13

discriminated against. Everyone was like, this

1:16

is a meritocracy. I never quite

1:18

felt that I was a beneficiary

1:20

of the so-called meritocracy. Hey

1:26

y'all, I'm John Gwen Hill

1:28

and this is Explain It

1:30

to Me. Your hotline for

1:33

the questions that matter most

1:35

to you. You've reached the

1:37

Explain it to me hotline.

1:40

You've got questions. We've

1:42

got answers. Hi, my name is

1:44

M and when I hear

1:46

about workplace and government, D.I.

1:48

initiatives being under attack

1:50

by the Trump administration.

1:53

I, as a clear

1:55

person, feel deeply conflicted.

1:57

On the one hand,

1:59

I've that it's incredibly

2:01

important that structural inequalities

2:03

in workplaces should be

2:06

resolved, but I also

2:08

feel deeply othered by

2:10

companies with ostensibly strong

2:12

DEI programs and policies. I

2:14

found that the programs are

2:17

often performative and may result in

2:19

organizations that say the right things

2:21

instead of doing the right things.

2:23

So how is Santa Cola my

2:25

being? To

2:28

get an answer to this question, I

2:30

knew just who to talk to.

2:32

Abdulafayat. I'm a writer at Vox, and I

2:34

write a lot about race and class. Okay,

2:36

let's talk through what we mean

2:38

when we talk about DEA. I

2:41

think we should stay focused on

2:43

private companies instead of the federal

2:45

sector, because that could be its

2:47

own conversation. But yeah, what exactly

2:49

are we talking about? Well,

2:51

it's interesting because, you know,

2:53

the history of this really

2:56

does start with federal workers,

2:58

or at least federal contractors,

3:00

starting in the 1960s.

3:02

It's much easier to

3:04

integrate a lunch counter than

3:06

it is to guarantee a livable

3:08

income and a good solid job.

3:11

I shall ask the Congress of

3:13

the United States to act. To

3:15

make a commitment, it is not

3:17

fully made in this century. to

3:20

the proposition that race has no

3:22

place in American life or law.

3:24

A lot of people now think

3:26

of DEAI just because it's a

3:29

buzzword. DEA reverses the things it's

3:31

intended to do. In the name

3:33

of ending racism you get anti-racism

3:35

which basically means you're just discriminating

3:38

against another group because they used

3:40

to discriminate. It's become part of

3:42

the culture wars, you know, a

3:44

big part of the Republican crusade

3:47

in this Trump administration is to

3:49

attack DEAI. But it really goes

3:51

back many decades when President Kennedy

3:53

signed an executive order that required

3:56

federal to actively not discriminate in

3:58

their hiring process. That was. followed

4:00

by an actual tangible law passed

4:02

by Congress, the Civil Rights Act

4:04

of 1964, which required all companies

4:06

of a certain size to make

4:08

sure that they do not discriminate

4:11

against their employees or people they

4:13

might hire. This Civil Rights Act

4:15

is a challenge to all of

4:17

us, to go to work in

4:19

our communities and our states, in

4:21

our homes and in our hearts,

4:23

to eliminate the last vestiges of

4:25

injustice. You know, and this eventually

4:27

evolved into the EI as we

4:29

know it today. Private companies really

4:32

took it and ran with it.

4:34

We started seeing companies in the

4:36

1960s, late 1960s, early 1970s, not

4:38

just complying with the law, but

4:40

going a little bit further. So

4:42

at first, you know, these all

4:44

look similar to what we know

4:46

now, you know, anti-harassment training, things

4:48

like that were, you know, essentially

4:50

targeted at making sure that employees

4:53

and companies complied with the law

4:55

so that they're not liable. But

4:57

there were companies like IBM that

4:59

took it a step further. Maybe

5:01

it was to avoid bad press,

5:03

maybe it was to get good

5:05

press, this idea that this wasn't

5:07

just something that we have to

5:09

do in order to comply with

5:11

the law, but it's a matter

5:14

of corporate social responsibility. And so,

5:16

you know, that's kind of the

5:18

DEA that we know it today

5:20

came from that origin. Yeah,

5:24

what does it actually look like?

5:26

You know, I feel like it's

5:28

a buzzword that gets thrown around.

5:30

I mean, we saw Kendrick Lamar

5:32

perform at the Super Bowl halftime

5:34

show. And there were people who

5:36

reacted and said, this is a

5:39

D-I-half-time show, and... That is not

5:41

what we're talking about when it

5:43

comes to these businesses. How does

5:45

DEA manifest in companies today? Well

5:47

yeah, I mean, DEA, like you

5:49

noted, I mean, it's become a

5:51

slur. It's become oftentimes a racial

5:53

or sexist slur. Anytime there is

5:55

a woman in a position that's

5:58

higher position, you know, it's said

6:00

to be a DUI-high or any

6:02

matter how many qualifications they have.

6:04

for that job? We've got a

6:06

DEA hire in here and what

6:08

about white females? What about any

6:10

other group? Just when you go

6:12

down that route you take mediocrity

6:14

and that's what they have. On

6:16

the right we keep hearing this

6:19

repeated talking point that these are

6:21

DEA hires but DEA as it

6:23

is today in companies takes many

6:25

forms. Most notable is you know...

6:27

things that have been around for

6:29

a really long time. So anytime

6:31

you start a new job at

6:33

a company, chances are you have

6:35

to sit through these trainings about

6:38

harassment in the workplace, be it

6:40

sexual harassment, racism, implicit bias training.

6:42

And then we see other initiatives

6:44

as well that companies take on.

6:46

You know, celebrations of certain heritage

6:48

months and heritage events and things

6:50

like that. But another major part

6:52

of the EI is just to

6:54

make sure that your recruitment process

6:56

is fair. It's not a matter

6:59

of, oh, we need quotas or

7:01

we need to make sure that

7:03

there are only a certain amount

7:05

of white men in management or

7:07

in certain parts of a company.

7:09

A lot of the EI is

7:11

to make sure that we have

7:13

an equal employment opportunities opportunities. You

7:15

know, these companies have chosen to

7:18

diversify even though they weren't required

7:20

to. What's the reason they give

7:22

for going above and beyond when

7:24

it comes to these initiatives? I

7:26

think this kind of really evolved

7:28

out of the 1980s, you know,

7:30

when companies started to see diversity

7:32

in hiring and just diversity more

7:34

broadly as not just a moral

7:36

thing to do, but that it

7:39

was actually good for your bottom

7:41

line as well. You know, I

7:43

don't know that there are many

7:45

studies that show that a diverse

7:47

workforce, you know, creates more profits

7:49

necessarily. But where that really came

7:51

from was, you know, in 1987,

7:53

there was a report from a

7:55

think tank called the Hudson Institute.

7:58

The report was called Workforce 2000.

8:00

In the year 2000, this came

8:02

out in 1987, and it kind

8:04

of took the corporate world by

8:06

storm it went viral at the

8:08

time if that was their version

8:10

of viral. Their version of viral

8:12

this was a report that every

8:14

every major company was reading and

8:16

it essentially was making predictions for

8:19

what the American workforce was going

8:21

to look like in the year

8:23

2000. And it was telling these

8:25

companies that the workforce is diversifying

8:27

at a really rapid rate both

8:29

by gender and by race. immigrant

8:31

status and the like. And essentially

8:33

companies really took that to heart

8:35

because they wanted to remain competitive.

8:38

And to remain competitive, you had

8:40

to be competitive among the workforce,

8:42

not just consumers, but if you

8:44

wanted to hire good talent and

8:46

the workforce was changing, these companies

8:48

really tried to change their policies

8:50

in order to adapt to this

8:52

new world that was being created

8:54

in the US for a more

8:56

diverse workforce. That's the kind of

8:59

business argument. That's where it started

9:01

from. Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

9:03

M was curious, you know, in

9:05

saying, am I being too cynical?

9:07

Like, is this just about business?

9:09

Is this just saying, okay, this

9:11

is the best way to be

9:13

profitable? Or is it kind of

9:15

like, oh, out of the goodness

9:18

of our hearts, we want to

9:20

better represent America in our business?

9:22

What's the thought process behind these

9:24

decisions? Well, I think M is

9:26

not too far off. I happen

9:28

to agree with a lot of

9:30

what they said. which is a

9:32

lot of the DEAI initiatives that

9:34

we have seen at many major

9:36

companies at academic institutions, have largely

9:39

been performative. And that's why what

9:41

we see oftentimes and why there's

9:43

a lot of criticism of DEA

9:45

programs, not just from the right,

9:47

but from the left as well.

9:49

It's just corporate PR. They want

9:51

good vibes. And also they want

9:53

to cover their ass. You bring

9:55

in a speaker a one-time thing

9:58

or you do anti-harassment trainings and

10:00

implicit bias trainings that study after

10:02

study have shown have been largely

10:04

ineffective and some studies have actually

10:06

shown them cause an antagonism, they

10:08

have been antagonizing some people in

10:10

management, but the reason we do

10:12

it is in large part because

10:14

companies are performing for their employees,

10:16

showing them that they are, you

10:19

know, saying the right things, but

10:21

it doesn't always mean that they're

10:23

doing the right things. You know,

10:25

one of the... best examples of

10:27

this is that you know we

10:29

see pay discrimination at company after

10:31

company after company and no matter

10:33

what the law is we have

10:35

not seen this get corrected. Okay

10:38

so there are these instances where

10:40

DUI policies are in place but

10:42

they aren't all that effective. We've

10:44

talked a little bit about this

10:46

pendulum swing from DUI and it's

10:48

happened both on the right and

10:50

on the left. Did we start

10:52

to see that pendulum swing back

10:54

on DUI? How did we go

10:57

from like, you know, this peak

10:59

moment in 2020 to where we

11:01

are now? In the 2000s, the

11:03

2010s, with the rise of movements

11:05

like Black Lives Matter, the Me

11:07

Too movement, you know, we saw

11:09

a lot of companies take a

11:11

more active PR stance, so they

11:13

all, you know, wanted to say

11:15

the right things. We have been

11:18

a collective of individuals. Different kinds

11:20

of people from different kinds of

11:22

places. When we open the door

11:24

to new worldviews, groundbreaking ingenuity can

11:26

enter the room. Where maybe... This

11:28

had reached a peak right after

11:30

the George Floyd protest when a

11:32

lot of companies were doing a

11:34

lot of work to quickly diversify

11:37

or to double down on the

11:39

programming that they had and to

11:41

do these listening tours with employees

11:43

and all of these kinds of

11:45

initiatives. And we saw companies all

11:47

across the board do this from

11:49

fashion brands to fast food companies.

11:51

And since then, you know, there

11:53

has been a careful... slow and

11:55

deliberate attack on DUI from the

11:58

right, that has gained traction. The

12:00

US Supreme Court today dealt a

12:02

major blow to a... in higher

12:04

education, striking down race-conscious admissions programs

12:06

at Harvard University and the University

12:08

of North Carolina. That was a

12:10

huge deal, and now we're seeing

12:12

schools become less diverse in enrollment

12:14

as a result. Obviously, DEA and

12:17

affirmative action are not the same

12:19

thing, but they are rooted in

12:21

the same history, and they have

12:23

the same ideals, essentially, the same

12:25

goals. All

12:29

right, thanks, Abdullah. I want you to

12:31

stay close because I have a few

12:34

more questions for you, but first, we're

12:36

going to take a second to talk

12:38

with an innovator in the world of

12:40

diversity, equity, and inclusion about where DEI

12:42

falls short. That's coming up next on

12:45

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13:08

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13:10

what if you could limit your news

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13:21

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13:23

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13:31

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13:33

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13:35

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13:37

They cover topics like international conflict, the

13:39

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13:41

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13:43

it definitely prepares me to start my

13:45

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13:47

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13:49

the Up First podcast from NPR today.

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explains it to me. We're back.

15:06

And today we're getting to what

15:08

all the hella-balloo around DEI means.

15:10

We reached out to Eric Ellis.

15:12

He's the CEO and president of

15:14

a corporate coaching organization called Integrity

15:16

Development. Basically, a lot of his

15:18

job is to help companies meet

15:20

their diversity, equity, and inclusion goals.

15:22

Right now, in 2025, those feel

15:24

like buzzwords. But Eric's been in

15:27

the game a long time. When

15:29

I started doing this work in

15:31

the 90s, I thought my job

15:33

was to be a diversity ghostbuster.

15:35

Just like going to organizations that

15:37

gunned down the racist sexes, pigging

15:39

in home folks. And I had

15:41

a formula. You know, I was

15:43

going to lose a third of

15:45

the class because I was going

15:47

to be calling him a name,

15:50

you know. So I felt like

15:52

God called me to the principal's

15:54

office and said, Eric, what are

15:56

you doing? Like, why are you

15:58

losing so many people? I believe

16:00

that. bias as a human condition.

16:02

And then secondly, creating an environment

16:04

that was safe enough that people

16:06

could be honest. I want to

16:08

take us to the now, you

16:10

know, earlier in the show, we

16:13

talked with my colleague, Abdullah Fayyad,

16:15

and he walked us through, you

16:17

know, this backlash against EII and

16:19

how it predates Trump. But since

16:21

coming into office, President Trump has

16:23

instituted a lot of big changes

16:25

in the federal workplace and also

16:27

at universities, because you know. federal

16:29

grants. Have you seen a major

16:31

change in how for-profit companies are

16:34

responding to this in the wake

16:36

of the Trump administration? People are

16:38

afraid. And I would say there

16:40

are three categories of organizations that

16:42

I've worked with and that I

16:44

see. There are some that are

16:46

closing up the tent and they're

16:48

saying, hey, we're done. We're out

16:50

of here. There are some that

16:52

are pausing or pivoting. And then

16:54

there's some that are staying the

16:57

course and doubling down. And I

16:59

would say that organizations have to

17:01

do what they believe is in

17:03

their best interest. One of the

17:05

things that I don't think that

17:07

we should do is force organizations

17:09

to do DEI when it's against

17:11

their own values. If they don't

17:13

believe in this, then they ought

17:15

to walk away. For organizations that

17:17

are just afraid and concerned and

17:20

don't want to get run over

17:22

by that political big megaphone of

17:24

the president, then I understand people

17:26

pivoting and I don't have a

17:28

problem with that. You know, it's

17:30

really interesting to think of, I

17:32

don't know. the values companies hold

17:34

because you know we saw all

17:36

these black squares in 2020 all

17:38

of these and now it's just

17:40

such a reversal I'm like just

17:43

the pendulum has been swinging back

17:45

and forth and it's kind of

17:47

like okay well what is it

17:49

you actually think and believe I

17:51

believe that bias is a human

17:53

condition that all people have bias

17:55

and we have to we have

17:57

to really work on that the

17:59

largest group of people that I've

18:01

trained over the last three decades

18:04

have been white men. And that

18:06

means I've not only trained them,

18:08

but I've learned from them. And

18:10

many times, many of the things

18:12

that they said to me, Eric,

18:14

this doesn't feel fair? I said,

18:16

I agree. You know, they would

18:18

say to me, Eric, why are...

18:20

only the biases of white guys.

18:22

People are only concerned about those.

18:24

Everybody else has got prejudices and

18:27

nobody ever talks about that. I

18:29

said, you're right. And so I

18:31

started making sure that we were

18:33

meaningfully including the voices of white

18:35

men and understanding some of the

18:37

challenges that they were facing and

18:39

standing alongside them when that was

18:41

appropriate. Okay, I'm glad you brought

18:43

up white guys because speaking of

18:45

white guys, we need to talk

18:47

about where a lot of the

18:50

stems from You know recently a

18:52

New York Times podcast interviewed the

18:54

conservative activist Chris Rufo He played

18:56

a major role in rolling back

18:58

affirmative action and he also came

19:00

up with a lot of the

19:02

anti-de-i policies that the Trump administration

19:04

is implementing right now I want

19:06

to play a quick clip from

19:08

that for you the argument that

19:11

I favor is to say No,

19:13

the right needs to have its

19:15

own interpretation of civil rights law

19:17

and it needs to take over

19:19

enforcement of civil rights law to

19:21

have essentially an alternative vision that

19:23

is Kind of Spartan system of

19:25

color blind equality There is no

19:27

reward or punishment based on ancestry

19:29

and if you do that in

19:31

admissions hiring promotions contracting You should

19:34

pay just as heavy a price

19:36

as if someone was, you know,

19:38

segregating the lunch counters in the

19:40

past. And I think my position

19:42

in 2020-21 is now the majority

19:44

position on the right. Okay, admittedly,

19:46

you know, when I hear that,

19:48

especially comparisons to lunch counters, like

19:50

my initial gut reaction is to

19:52

eye roll. And I'm kind of

19:54

curious what you think about this

19:57

idea on the right that there

19:59

should be this kind of quote-unquote,

20:01

color-blind equality. Well, I love that.

20:03

It's just nobody's living that way.

20:05

The thing that I loved is

20:07

when I saw that the President's

20:09

executive order was named ending illegal

20:11

discrimination, I was like, what? Oh

20:13

my goodness, thank you for that

20:15

gift. I will also end the

20:17

government policy of trying to socially

20:20

engineer race and gender into every

20:22

aspect of public and private life.

20:26

We will forge a

20:28

society that is color

20:30

blind and merit-based. If

20:32

the president, in fact,

20:34

seeks to end illegal

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