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or in store. How bad will

1:02

a Trump president be

1:04

for the climate? There's a lot

1:06

to be hopeful about. What gives you

1:08

that hope? Hi,

1:10

I'm John Glenn Hill and we

1:12

get a lot of calls to the

1:15

Explain It To Me hotline. And

1:17

quite a few have been from listeners

1:19

wondering, what's going on with

1:21

climate change? We know

1:23

that President Donald Trump is a climate skeptic.

1:25

And he's been doing a lot in

1:27

his three months back in office to slow

1:29

down the climate progress that's been made. So

1:32

where does that leave us now? To

1:34

answer this question, I brought in a

1:36

colleague, someone whose job it is to think

1:38

about the changing climate and who knows how

1:40

to cover it in a way that doesn't

1:42

make us want to throw up our hands

1:45

and despair. So I

1:47

am Paige Vega. I'm Vox's

1:49

climate editor and I think

1:51

I'm the only Voxer that

1:53

lives in southwestern Colorado. I

1:55

live in a little mountain town in the

1:58

Four Corners region and I've got two dogs and

2:00

we hang out in the mountains and

2:02

yeah, it's a pretty nice situation.

2:04

Yeah, I'm very jealous of your access

2:06

to green chili. I

2:08

want to play you these questions

2:10

we got from a listener named

2:12

Sophie. My main questions

2:14

are What, as related to climate

2:17

change, is likely to happen at

2:19

the federal level? What's

2:21

the risk in terms of our ability to

2:23

address the climate crisis? And

2:25

then what can be done at

2:27

a state and local level

2:29

to make meaningful action towards

2:31

addressing the climate crisis? So

2:34

I have good news for listeners and

2:36

readers like Sophie who are concerned

2:38

about what they're seeing come out

2:40

of the White House and Trump's

2:42

executive actions to derail the clean

2:44

energy transition and climate progress. The

2:47

news is our climate is not

2:49

doomed. Full stop. Trump

2:51

is doing a lot of things, but

2:53

we are unlikely to see all

2:55

of the momentum that's been building

2:57

for years around the clean energy

3:00

transition fully stop. And if you

3:02

do take a step back and

3:04

look at the economic trends associated

3:06

with wind, solar, renewable energies

3:08

of all kinds across the

3:10

board, EVs, the picture is

3:12

much bigger than just the United States.

3:14

And on the global scale, there is

3:16

a lot to be hopeful about there.

3:19

Okay, I want to get into the

3:21

Trump of it all. What

3:23

is the president doing to

3:25

kind of stymie that climate

3:27

progress? Yeah, he's doing a

3:29

lot. And readers are right

3:31

to be concerned about all of

3:33

the headlines that they've been seeing

3:35

over the last several weeks and

3:37

months since Trump took office. But

3:39

the one thing that's really important

3:41

to keep in mind here before

3:44

we go down this long list

3:46

of assaults is that Joe Biden

3:48

actually produced more oil than Trump

3:50

did in his first term. And

3:52

one thing that I talk about

3:54

a lot with Fox's other climate

3:56

reporters is how do we

3:58

make good decisions around the stories that

4:00

we're covering coming out of Trump? Because he

4:02

says a lot of things. But

4:04

does what he says actually translate

4:06

to concrete action and consequences?

4:09

And we looked back at his

4:11

first term and wanted to

4:13

really interrogate, like, what are the

4:15

lasting legacies in terms of

4:17

climate and energy policy that came

4:19

out of Trump won? And

4:21

there wasn't actually a lot that

4:23

stuck. So

4:26

what happened is Trump did a lot

4:28

of similar things that we're seeing him

4:30

do now during his first term, but

4:32

then Biden came into office and reversed

4:34

a lot of those policies. A couple

4:36

examples here, Trump pulled us out of

4:38

the Paris Agreement. I was

4:40

elected to represent

4:42

the citizens of

4:44

Pittsburgh, not Paris. Biden

4:47

put us back into the Paris Agreement.

4:50

And as of today, the United States is

4:52

officially once again a party. to

4:54

the Paris Agreement, which we helped put together. Trump

4:56

is also attempting to curl tail the

4:58

ability of states to regulate vehicle emissions.

5:00

We saw him do that in his

5:03

first term. The assault on the

5:05

American auto industry, believe me,

5:07

is over. Biden came into

5:09

office and reversed that. The

5:11

United States of America

5:13

will meet our emissions targets

5:15

by 2030. Trump

5:17

on day one of his second

5:19

term here, he declared an energy emergency.

5:22

We will drill baby

5:24

drill. and

5:26

had a flurry of executive

5:28

orders that are all really

5:30

intended to gut federal climate

5:32

efforts, roll back regulations that

5:34

are aimed at limiting things

5:36

like pollution. He wants

5:38

to give a major boost to the

5:41

fossil fuel industry and he wants to

5:43

evade in efforts to really reduce global

5:45

warming. This has really come

5:47

through in a series of executive orders

5:49

that are currently tangled up in

5:51

the courts or haven't been fully realized.

5:54

The short answer to that question is that not

5:56

much has actually happened yet. We're

5:58

still in this really intense wait -and -see

6:00

period. You

6:04

mentioned that outside the US, other countries

6:07

are moving ahead on clean energy.

6:09

Can you talk about that a little

6:11

bit? Who's doing what?

6:13

Yeah, so basically China's eating our

6:15

lunch when it comes to

6:17

the energy transition and climate progress.

6:19

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's kind

6:21

of an interesting thing because this

6:23

is a developing country that's

6:25

been emitting more fossil fuels in

6:27

recent years. But as they're

6:29

developing so rapidly, they're actually doing

6:31

quite a lot to transition

6:34

away from fossil fuels and dirty forms

6:36

of energy to diversify that energy

6:38

mix. So in 2022

6:41

China installed roughly as much

6:43

solar capacity as the rest of

6:45

the world combined. And

6:47

then it doubled additional solar

6:49

capacity in 2023. We're

6:51

also seeing it do quite

6:53

a lot on the EV electrical

6:56

vehicle and infrastructure front as

6:58

well. One company really stands

7:00

out here at BYD and

7:02

it's very popular across the world.

7:05

It's a very cheap and

7:07

honestly stylish. Vehicle that

7:09

a lot of consumers enjoy that we

7:11

don't have access to in the United

7:13

States. Yeah, I was about to say

7:15

like that's not a Tesla Did not

7:17

know there was a another big game

7:20

in town. Yeah, BYD is Really taken

7:22

the lead here in terms of the

7:24

global picture on the EV race. Okay,

7:26

we've talked about globally We've talked about

7:28

the federal level Outside of

7:30

the federal level, can we expect

7:32

to see a lot of

7:34

action happening on that state and local level?

7:36

The states are going to be very

7:39

important here in the next couple of years.

7:41

Trump can't control the price of

7:43

energy. Trump can't control a

7:45

lot of things outside of public

7:48

land, energy development, and a

7:50

lot of U .S. energy production

7:52

happens on state lands or on

7:54

the state level. And

7:56

many states across the country have

7:58

set their own goals

8:00

and targets for climate progress and

8:02

have not abandoned those goals. We

8:05

also see Republican states and

8:07

Republican districts benefiting far more than

8:09

we're seeing blue states benefit

8:11

from climate incentives and things like

8:13

the Inflation Reduction Act that

8:15

Joe Biden passed. This was a

8:17

major climate legislation that pumped

8:19

a ton of money into the

8:21

energy transition and, you know,

8:23

really shifting the economy to accommodate

8:26

that. So Trump's gonna not

8:28

face exactly an easy path to begin

8:30

to reverse some of those things. Paige

8:37

Vega, climate editor for Vox.com.

8:39

We'll catch up with her

8:41

again later, but first a

8:44

break. When we come back, we're

8:46

going to hear from our colleague Benji about

8:48

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8:50

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9:55

based on the February 2024 Nielsen

9:57

Report. Why

10:00

Iowa? This massive wind

10:02

powerhouse. The windmills are

10:04

driving the whales crazy.

10:07

Obviously. We're

10:10

back. It's explained to me. So

10:12

what does the clean energy transition

10:14

look like in a state that's

10:17

solidly Republican? Let's ask

10:19

our colleague, Benji Jones, environmental correspondent

10:21

at Vox. OK,

10:23

so you focused this story,

10:25

wrote on Iowa. Why

10:28

Iowa? I am from

10:30

Iowa and from a small town

10:32

in the like nose in the

10:34

southeast corner and whenever I go

10:37

home to visit my parents were

10:39

still there. I'm seeing these

10:41

open expanses of farmland and then

10:43

in the distance a bunch of

10:45

windmills wind turbines and actually when

10:47

I looked into this a few

10:49

years ago. I found out that Iowa

10:51

gets a larger share of its energy from wind

10:53

power than any other state in the country. Two

10:55

decades ago, there were only a few

10:57

hundred wind turbines in Iowa. Now there

10:59

are more than 6 ,000 in this state.

11:01

According to the Iowa Environmental Council,

11:03

wind energy made up almost

11:06

65 % of Iowa's electricity last

11:08

year. So it's like this massive

11:10

wind powerhouse and That fact

11:12

is interesting to me

11:14

because Iowa is also a

11:16

Republican stronghold. It's voted

11:18

for Trump in 2016, 2020,

11:20

most recently in 2024.

11:22

Trump won in a landslide.

11:25

And Trump and wind power

11:28

tend to be at odds.

11:31

I've seen the most beautiful fields,

11:33

farms, fields, most gorgeous things you've

11:35

ever seen. And then you have

11:37

these ugly things going up. Trump.

11:40

I would say is like the

11:42

most anti -wind energy president

11:44

in history. And they say

11:47

the noise causes cancer. You

11:49

tell me that one, okay? And

11:51

of course it's like a

11:53

graveyard for birds. He like really

11:55

hates wind energy and this

11:57

dates back to at least 2012

11:59

when he kind of got into

12:01

a fight with a town in

12:03

Scotland over putting up wind

12:06

turbines in the site of

12:08

his golf course that he was

12:10

opening. During a Scottish government

12:12

hearing, Trump warned that wind turbines

12:14

are a threat to their

12:16

country's tourism industry. Wind turbines made

12:18

in China are going to

12:20

be the destruction and the... almost

12:22

a total destruction of your

12:24

tourism industry. He's over the years

12:26

just been very, very outspoken

12:28

against wind, calling turbines monstrosities, telling

12:30

people that they kill whales,

12:32

which we don't think they do.

12:34

They're dangerous. You see what's

12:37

happening up in the Massachusetts area

12:39

with the whales, where

12:41

they had two whales wash ashore, and

12:43

I think a 17 -year period. And

12:45

now they had 14 this season.

12:49

The windmills are driving the

12:51

whales crazy, obviously. There's

12:53

no evidence of that. So

12:56

yeah, very anti -wind, and

12:58

he's putting real actions

13:00

behind that anti -wind

13:02

stance. So literally on

13:04

his first day in

13:06

office, he signed an

13:08

executive order that effectively

13:11

suspends new federal offshore

13:13

wind leases. and also

13:15

temporarily suspends new and renewed approvals,

13:17

federal approvals for both offshore

13:19

and onshore wind projects. So he's

13:21

already trying to get in

13:23

the way of this industry. And

13:25

this is a bigger issue

13:27

right now for offshore wind. And

13:29

we're already starting to see

13:31

some companies in the wind industry

13:33

getting cold feet, pulling projects. There's

13:35

also concerns around tariffs. So

13:37

a lot of the parts for

13:40

wind turbines are imported. Iowa

13:42

has manufacturing facilities for turbines. Some

13:44

of those parts are definitely going

13:46

to be coming from out of

13:48

the country. And so we could

13:51

see an increase in the cost

13:53

of turbines probably in like the

13:55

single digits. There's also this question

13:57

of whether the tax credits for

13:59

wind power so you can get.

14:01

tax credits for wind energy right

14:03

now, there's a question about whether

14:05

Congress under Republican control might do

14:07

away with those tax credits, which

14:09

would make wind more expensive. So

14:11

there's kind of like a lot

14:13

of, I hate headwinds. Okay, everyone

14:15

makes that pun, I hate it,

14:17

but there are serious roadblocks for

14:19

wind industry at the hands of

14:21

Trump. Okay, so Trump has this

14:23

ongoing beef with wind and wind

14:25

turbines. How will

14:28

these policies impact Iowa? It's

14:32

not clear yet. And so you could

14:34

see, for example, the cost

14:36

of turbines going up, which could be reflected

14:38

in energy bills across the state. Iowa has

14:40

fairly cheap electricity bills, and that's something that

14:42

is important, especially to companies that are coming

14:44

there and building data centers and so forth.

14:46

So you could see a change in the

14:48

cost of energy. You could see

14:50

a slowdown in the buildout of

14:53

wind farms. That's another issue. But ultimately,

14:55

it's going to be like a

14:57

time will tell how bad Trump's policies

14:59

are going to hit the state.

15:01

How did Iowa become a wind energy

15:03

state? So it's very windy.

15:05

That's a key here. Very windy. There

15:08

are no major fossil fuel industries in

15:10

Iowa, so there aren't. competing industries that

15:12

are lobbying for their own energy sources.

15:14

So that was another part of it.

15:17

I think one of the most interesting

15:19

reasons is that Iowa was the first

15:21

state in the country to pass what's

15:23

called the Renewable Portfolio Standard. This was

15:25

in 1983 and it required the state's

15:27

investor -owned utilities to contract out or

15:30

own a certain minimum of renewable energy.

15:32

So it's basically like you need to

15:34

be producing at least this much by

15:36

this date. And it was the first

15:38

state to have that kind of regulation

15:40

in place. So there was this policy

15:42

incentive as well. And also

15:44

one of Iowa's senators, Chuck Grassley,

15:47

the oldest senator in Congress, was really

15:49

responsible for getting... tax credits in

15:51

place for wind energy at the federal

15:53

level. And he's actually considered the

15:55

father of wind energy in Iowa because

15:57

of his role in getting tax

15:59

incentives in place for energy. So that

16:01

was also really, really key. You

16:03

know, you don't want to be dependent

16:05

on the volatile Middle East for

16:07

energy. So we did everything during the

16:10

80s, 90s and into the 2000s

16:12

to develop alternative energy. And then another

16:14

big part of this is that

16:16

it's cheap. So wind energy is one

16:18

of the cheapest energy sources, if

16:20

not the cheapest. And then the last

16:22

thing I'll say is that farmers

16:24

really benefit from it. So farmers have

16:26

a lot of land in Iowa.

16:28

They're a pretty powerful voting block. And

16:30

putting turbines on their property is

16:32

a way for them to make some

16:35

extra income alongside their farms. So

16:37

you actually talked to some farmers

16:39

who are benefiting from clean energy. Tell

16:42

us a little bit about that.

16:44

Yeah, I talked to this guy named

16:46

Dave Johnson, who lives just over the

16:48

border in Minnesota actually, but he has

16:50

a livestock farm in northern Iowa. Whoever

16:52

are livestock, whoever are

16:55

land, we appreciate it. Just

16:57

a conservative farm family. Dave leases

16:59

some of his land to an

17:01

energy company that installed four turbines

17:03

on his property. And

17:05

then his son, who's nearby, also

17:07

has turbines on his farm, and so

17:09

does his neighbor. So this like

17:12

little community in northern Iowa, a

17:14

bunch of farmers with their wind

17:16

turbines, and he speaks really, really

17:18

highly of wind energy. We take

17:20

in roughly $30 ,000

17:22

a year and that

17:24

grows every year. So that's

17:26

a 401k plan that

17:28

I never had. He has

17:31

a lot of hogs

17:33

and cattle, but he installed

17:35

turbines as a way to generate

17:37

like supplementary income. So the price of

17:39

livestock can change over time, but

17:41

wind energy tends to be more stable.

17:43

So it's actually a boon to

17:45

him to have turbines on his land.

17:48

Well, I look out there and

17:50

I see those turbines. They do absolutely

17:52

no damage to me whatsoever. We

17:55

have four turbines on our

17:57

property, and we lost an

17:59

acre and a half of

18:01

soluble land. Now that's

18:03

a pretty good swap to get

18:05

that kind of money for an acre

18:07

and a half. Everyone needs a

18:10

side hustle. Exactly. Exactly. And

18:12

he told me that it's not

18:14

just him that's benefiting, but the whole

18:16

state of Iowa benefits from having

18:18

the wind turbines on his land. I

18:20

mean when you think about all

18:22

the money that's brought in on farmers

18:24

that have participated in wind projects, I

18:26

think you would be shocked. And that's

18:28

what's saving a lot of them family

18:30

farms out there. When it comes to

18:32

politics, where's Dave's head at? Yeah, I

18:34

mean, so this is one of the

18:36

reasons why I wanted to talk to

18:38

him, because like many Iowans, he says

18:40

that he's Republican and he supports Trump,

18:42

but it's not because of Trump's views

18:44

on energy. The Donald Trump

18:46

was elected, not for his

18:48

views on green energy as much

18:50

as his views on other

18:52

things. We have to have somebody

18:55

that protects business, and I

18:57

think the Republican Party does that

18:59

in a great way. And

19:01

Dave also told me that he's

19:03

not really worried about what

19:05

Trump has said negatively about wind

19:07

energy. He kind of disregards

19:09

it as like, oh yeah, he

19:11

just runs his mouth. Don't

19:13

worry about it. Let's see what

19:15

he actually does. My 328th

19:17

is bringing in $80 ,000 the

19:19

taxation in addition to the land

19:21

that I pay taxes on. You

19:24

know, is something offset that because

19:26

he don't want us to have renewables?

19:28

I don't think so. I don't

19:30

think you'll get that fast. Even

19:33

if they tried. Are there other

19:35

states that are in a similar situation

19:37

as Iowa, you know, these red

19:39

states that are invested in clean energy?

19:42

Yeah, it's actually like pretty common. So

19:44

Texas is another great example. It

19:46

actually produces more wind power than any

19:48

other state in the country. It

19:50

actually counts for about a fourth or

19:52

actually over a fourth of all

19:54

wind energy produced in the US. It's

19:56

coming from Texas, which of course

19:58

is a Republican state. Same with Oklahoma

20:01

and your home state of Kansas.

20:03

And then Florida is another example. It's

20:05

a big solar state. So we're

20:07

not just talking about wind. So you

20:09

have a lot of red states

20:11

that are producing renewables. Where do you

20:13

expect to see the clean energy

20:15

industry go from here? I mean, I'm

20:17

so uncomfortable with uncertainty. You and

20:19

the stock market. Yeah, exactly.

20:23

If I had to guess, I would

20:25

say we will see a slowdown

20:27

in the growth of wind as an

20:29

industry, but ultimately it's not going

20:31

to go away, it's not going to

20:33

stop. Projections suggest that

20:35

by like 2050, out into the

20:37

future, we are going to see

20:40

a much larger percent of energy

20:42

in this country around the world

20:44

coming from renewables, coming from wind. Because

20:47

again, like what really matters here, which

20:49

is, and this is such an important

20:51

takeaway, wind energy is cheap,

20:53

if not the cheapest source of new

20:55

energy relative to all other sources. And

20:57

because it's cheap, it's going to do

20:59

pretty well. I mean, the only reason

21:01

Iowa has become such a big Wednesday

21:03

is that it was economically smart for

21:06

the state. Vox's

21:08

Benji Jones. After this

21:10

next break, we'll hear some ideas about what

21:12

we all can do to keep climate progress

21:15

moving forward in the coming years. Rettles

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22:26

the headlines in

22:28

stride. It's not predetermined.

22:32

We're back and it's explained it to

22:34

me. Before the break, we

22:36

heard from Benji Jones about wind

22:38

energy in Iowa and how Trump's

22:40

policies might impact renewable energy, even

22:43

in states that he won. I

22:45

wanted to talk to Paige again to find

22:47

out what steps those of us who aren't wind

22:49

farmers can take right now. As

22:52

you're reading the headlines

22:54

and getting really concerned about

22:56

the action of the

22:59

federal government, Keep that

23:01

in check. The headlines

23:03

can sound really bad, but putting those

23:05

in context often, they don't play

23:07

out the way that they're first portrayed.

23:10

These transitions take a really, really

23:12

long time. It's a very wide

23:14

turn of a very big ship,

23:16

and Trump does not hold all

23:18

the levers to control what happens. He's

23:20

also getting tangled up in the court. Take

23:24

the headlines in stride. It's

23:27

not predetermined. But

23:29

what we can do as individuals,

23:31

just beyond moderating our stress and maintaining

23:33

some hope in all of this,

23:36

is reduce your energy usage and change

23:38

some of your daily behaviors to

23:40

be more sustainable in your own life.

23:44

This can be really easy to do,

23:46

actually. Something like cutting 10 % of

23:48

meat out of your diet, just

23:50

eating 10 % less of that can

23:52

make a huge difference, especially if that's

23:55

scaled up on a population level

23:57

or within your community. Opt

23:59

out of factory farming. And if

24:01

you can source food and meat

24:03

from your own community or from

24:05

your friends who hunt or something,

24:07

that's always a great option. That's

24:09

something that my family does. You

24:12

can also think about acting on

24:14

your personal home energy usage. Turn

24:17

your thermostat up. You don't need to

24:19

crank it down to 68 degrees. You

24:22

may be a little less

24:24

comfortable at 74, but you're saving

24:26

a lot actually by doing

24:28

things like that. And stay engaged.

24:30

Contact your elected officials to

24:32

voice support for climate action. Keep

24:34

this on the minds of

24:36

the politicians that represent you and

24:38

your community on the county

24:40

level, state level, and the federal

24:42

level. Put pressure. Keep

24:44

calling. Send

24:47

emails. Post on your social

24:49

media. Be vocal about

24:51

the things that you care about. There's

24:53

also a way to build your

24:55

social life around just being more

24:57

sustainable. Things like thrifting

24:59

instead of buying new. Like,

25:01

can you buy used as

25:03

much as possible? Used electronics, used

25:05

home furnishings, used clothing. Being

25:08

the next step in the life

25:10

cycle of a product means you're

25:12

keeping it out of the landfill

25:14

for longer. And that really

25:16

does make a difference in terms of emissions

25:19

and also just, you know, being more

25:21

taxing on the environment. Have

25:24

you found ways to make

25:26

changes in your own life? Yeah,

25:28

so I have. I

25:30

installed a heat pump system

25:32

in my home. It

25:34

actually is cheaper for me to install

25:36

something like a heat pump rather

25:38

than relying on my old 1940s furnace

25:40

that's pulling from natural gas. It's

25:43

an upfront investment, but I actually

25:45

was able to get local county incentives

25:47

to get that installed in state

25:49

incentives, and there is still a federal

25:51

heat pump incentive as well. So

25:54

those things haven't disappeared now that Trump

25:56

has suddenly taken the White House

25:58

and I just went through the situation

26:00

myself and I'm already saving money

26:02

on my energy bill. Yeah, I'm curious.

26:05

What are you and the

26:07

rest of the Vox climate

26:09

team watching out for in

26:12

terms of climate progress right

26:14

now? Yeah, so we're keeping

26:16

track of the effectiveness of

26:18

the outcomes of Trump administration

26:20

policy. We want to keep

26:22

an eye on continued momentum on the

26:24

state level as well. So what's going

26:26

on with climate action by the states?

26:28

Is that pulling in the opposite direction

26:31

of some of Trump's policies? Those things

26:33

are really going to be interesting to

26:35

watch, especially with some of these dynamics

26:37

that we're seeing in red states that

26:39

have big incentives to continue investing in

26:41

clean energy. What are the

26:43

pace of technological advancements and

26:45

cost reductions in clean energy? And

26:47

I think public perception of climate

26:50

change is so important. as well. Like

26:52

you've seen climate change labeled recently

26:54

as this like woke issue but you

26:56

also see more and more people

26:58

being concerned about extreme weather and climate

27:01

disasters and climate change is like

27:03

impacting us in more of our communities

27:05

like no matter where you live

27:07

you're going to experience climate change we're

27:09

in that era now. We're

27:13

in a really interesting wait and

27:15

see period honestly like Trump is

27:17

doing a lot to derail

27:20

climate progress and the energy

27:22

transition. But he's not going

27:24

to be able to slow that progress entirely.

27:26

So it's kind of a question of

27:29

how much and where. All

27:31

right. Thanks for explaining this to us, Paige.

27:33

Yeah. Thank you so much. And

27:36

I really appreciate the question. I think it's on the mind

27:38

of a lot of people. The

27:43

Vox Climate Team has been reporting

27:45

on the unexpected places where climate

27:47

progress is continuing, and you can

27:49

read those stories at vox.com. While

27:52

you're there, consider joining our membership

27:54

program to get access to ad

27:56

-free Vox podcasts, including explain

27:58

it to me. Sign up

28:00

at Vox.com slash members. This

28:03

episode was produced by Avashai Artsy.

28:05

It was edited by our producer,

28:07

Miranda Kennedy, fact -checked by

28:09

Melissa Hirsch, and engineered by Matthew

28:11

Billy. Carla Javier is our

28:13

supervising producer. I'm your host,

28:15

John Glenn Hill. Thanks so much

28:17

for listening. Talk to you soon. Bye.