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to Chris Hayes about how our

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digital devices have changed us. Now

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it's like traffic or air travel.

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Like, it's a thing that we

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are always going off. Listen

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to The Gray Area with me,

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Sean Elling. New episodes every

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Monday available everywhere. What

1:04

does it mean to be a good person? Should

1:06

I take zero flights ever?

1:08

How do I balance caring for

1:11

others versus caring for myself? Hey

1:15

y 'all, it's John Flynn. You're listening

1:17

to Explain It To Me. If

1:19

you're a regular listener, you know

1:22

the drill. You call in with

1:24

questions and we try to

1:26

find you the answers. But not

1:28

all questions have capital A answers. Sometimes

1:32

they're more

1:34

squishy. Is

1:37

it unethical to stay on Twitter

1:39

or Facebook given the dangerous positions

1:41

that are expressed by their owners?

1:43

I found out from a DNA

1:45

test that my dad isn't my

1:47

biological dad. Should I tell him? That's

1:51

where my colleague, future perfect senior

1:53

reporter Segal Sampmule comes in. Hi.

2:01

Hey, hey, yay, we're finally getting

2:03

to do something together. So here,

2:06

and explain it to me,

2:08

we're basically looking for questions

2:10

with answers that aren't all

2:12

that easy to find if you pop

2:14

them into a search engine.

2:16

Seagal answers questions, too, but

2:18

a different kind. She's all about

2:21

ethics. So I'm a big nerd

2:23

who did a degree in philosophy.

2:25

And I'm also just a person

2:27

who in my regular daily life.

2:29

I feel like I think about...

2:31

moral questions a lot and like

2:33

what does it mean to be

2:35

a good person is that even

2:37

a thing what does it mean

2:39

to live a good life all

2:42

of that stuff and so I

2:44

launched last year this philosophical advice

2:46

column it's called your mileage may

2:48

vary and it's not like other

2:50

advice columns out there because my

2:52

basic feeling about the advice column

2:54

as a genre is a genre

2:56

was born in 1690 and like

2:58

at the time a lot of

3:00

people thought like there's like one

3:03

objectively right answer to moral questions

3:05

and there's like one objectively right

3:07

way to be a good person

3:09

and I'm just like no like I

3:11

don't buy that premise like I

3:13

don't think there's one objectively right

3:15

answer to the like super complex

3:17

moral questions that our lives throw

3:19

at us so I decided to

3:21

reimagine the genre and do an

3:23

advice column that's based on value

3:25

pluralism. Say more about that what

3:27

does that mean? That's an idea

3:29

that was developed by philosophers like

3:31

Isaiah Berlin and Bernard Williams. It's

3:34

basically the idea that every single

3:36

one of us has not just

3:38

one thing we value, but like

3:40

we have multiple values. And they

3:42

can be equally valid, but sometimes

3:44

they're in conflict with each other.

3:46

And when your values clash, that's

3:48

when a dilemma is going to

3:50

arise for you. When we get a question,

3:53

the first item on the to-do list

3:55

is research. What journals are there about

3:57

the topic you asked us about? Who's

3:59

written about it? What gaps are there

4:01

in the existing reporting? I wanted to

4:03

hear how Segal's process is different from

4:06

ours. You know, I think most advice

4:08

columns you write in, here's my question,

4:10

they're like, boom, here's the answer, here's

4:13

what you should do. And I'm like,

4:15

no, what I'm going to do is

4:17

tease apart what are the different values

4:20

that are like implicit in your question

4:22

that are intention with each other? Then

4:24

I will curate for you from like

4:27

the past 2,000 years or so of...

4:29

wise philosophers, spiritual thinkers, spiritual thinkers, psychologists,

4:31

etc. thinking about this, what do wise

4:34

people say about when those values are

4:36

intention? Like what can you do? Okay,

4:38

here's an example of those values, intention

4:41

with one another. Someone who vehemently opposes

4:43

President Trump, wrote in and asked about

4:45

how to talk to family members who

4:48

voted for him. So Gaul decided to

4:50

bring in the work of social psychologist

4:52

Jonathan Hayt. If that name sounds familiar,

4:55

It's because he recently wrote a book

4:57

about smartphones and kids. He and some

4:59

others developed this this thing called moral

5:02

foundation theory. The research there suggests that

5:04

people in different political camps prioritize different

5:06

moral values. So liberals are the people

5:09

who they're really sensitive to the values

5:11

of care and fairness and conservatives are

5:13

people who are also really sensitive to

5:16

values of like loyalty, and sanctity or

5:18

purity. The point is, it's not like

5:20

some of these values are like dumb

5:23

or wrong and some are like right

5:25

and smart. Like that's not it. They're

5:27

just different values. He has this this

5:30

phrase that I that I like. He

5:32

calls them moral taste buds. Oh. And

5:34

it's like your your tongue has taste

5:37

buds for like sour whatever it is

5:39

sour bitter or sweet. You know, it's

5:41

not like some of those are dumb

5:44

and some of them are right. Like

5:46

they're all just different things. How does

5:48

that relate back to this Trump question?

5:51

I tried to bring that up to

5:53

help that question ask or think about

5:55

his family members because he was saying,

5:58

how can I even talk to these

6:00

people? Like, they just seem to not

6:02

care at all about human suffering. Like,

6:05

I think they just voted for Trump

6:07

to check a religious box on the

6:09

abortion issue. Don't you care that some

6:12

women will die from this? This is

6:14

gonna cause so much suffering. And I

6:16

tried to say to him, like, maybe

6:19

don't look at your relatives assuming that

6:21

they're just totally fine with human suffering.

6:23

And like, their values are diametrically opposed

6:26

to yours. It's like, they're not. politically

6:28

opposed. They're different values that they're

6:30

putting more weight on, but like,

6:32

they are values. We're not saying,

6:34

don't try to convince anyone to

6:36

change their mind. All views are

6:38

equally fine. All political orientations are

6:40

equally correct. We're just saying, how do

6:42

we nudge people to actually live out

6:44

those values in a more balanced way

6:46

or in a more authentic way? So after

6:49

combing through those ideas, Sogol starts

6:51

writing the answer in her column.

6:53

What do you want to put more

6:55

weight on? Do you want to put

6:57

more weight on this value or that

6:59

value? How do you want to balance

7:01

them? What would it what could it

7:03

concretely look like to balance them? And

7:05

I'll give people some ideas about how

7:08

you might balance them. If you find

7:10

the case for one more compelling than

7:12

the case for another, you might put

7:14

more weight on that. Are there moral

7:16

questions that come up for you and

7:19

your daily life? Like are there times

7:21

where you're like, like, This philosophical advice

7:23

column is really born out of my

7:25

own angst, I would say, about like,

7:28

oh God, how do I deal with

7:30

these things? I think a common one,

7:32

which probably a lot of people can

7:34

relate to, is how do I balance

7:37

caring for others versus caring for myself?

7:39

Yeah. The first question I ever got

7:41

and answered for this advice column

7:43

was someone writing in... Look, I

7:45

love my mom. I really care

7:47

about her. She has like a

7:49

whole slew of health conditions. I

7:51

do a lot to try to

7:53

help her out, but like as

7:55

she ages, I know she's going

7:57

to need even more help and

7:59

like... Would I be dropping

8:01

everything to take care of

8:03

my mom? I find that

8:06

so relatable. We might value

8:08

self-sacrifice and think that's admirable

8:10

sometimes, but we might also

8:12

really value self-preservation. So that

8:14

kind of thing. I think

8:17

about that a lot. After

8:19

the break, Seagal tackles a

8:21

question with a lot of

8:23

miles on it. Birthdays,

8:33

anniversaries, weddings, whatever the occasion.

8:35

It just got a little

8:37

more personal, with meaningful photo

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gifts from Shutterfly. Add a

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silly photo to a gold-rimmed

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8:50

teen. Gift your husband a

8:52

desktop plaque featuring all the

8:54

kids. Enjoy 40 of shutterfly.com

8:56

and make something that means

8:58

something. It's today

9:01

explained, I'm Noel King with Miles

9:03

Bryan. Senior reporter and producer for

9:05

the program, hello. Hi, you went

9:07

to public school, right, Miles? Yes,

9:09

go South High Tigers. What do

9:12

you remember about school lunch? I

9:14

remember sad, lasagna, shrink-rapped, and little

9:16

containers. I remember avoiding it. Do

9:18

you remember the nugs? The chicken

9:21

nuggets? Yeah, if I had to

9:23

eat school lunch, that was a

9:25

pretty good option. I actually liked

9:27

them, but in addition to being

9:29

very tasty, those nugs were very

9:32

processed, and at the moment, America

9:34

has got processed foods in its

9:36

crosshairs. It's true. We are collectively

9:38

very down on processed food right

9:41

now, none more so than health

9:43

and human services secretary nominee Robert

9:45

Fulride Kennedy Jr. I'll get processed

9:47

food out of school lunch immediately.

9:49

About half the school lunch program

9:52

goes to process food. Penn the

9:54

man who once saved a dead

9:56

bear cup for a snack fixed

9:58

school lunches. Today explained... every weekday

10:01

wherever you get your podcasts. This

10:03

is explained to me. We're

10:05

back talking with my colleagues, Zagal Samuel,

10:07

about her column. Your mileage may vary.

10:09

One of the things that I like

10:12

about her work is that it's thoughtful

10:14

without being judgy. I'll just give you

10:16

like a personal example when I was

10:18

an undergrad and like this was many

10:20

years ago because I'm old so like

10:22

I don't think climate was as top

10:25

of mind for me then as it

10:27

is now but I remember a bunch

10:29

of us would go have lunch together

10:31

on campus at this kitchen where they

10:33

like gave free like vegetarian lunches and

10:35

they had like plastic spoons and I once

10:37

was like having lunch there with some of my

10:39

friends and I used a plastic spoon and like

10:42

I tossed it out at the end of the...

10:44

meal and my friend who

10:46

was studying environmental sciences

10:49

looked at me and my one

10:51

little plastic spoon with such horror

10:53

and disgust and I was like

10:55

oh my god I felt like

10:58

laser beams were shooting out of

11:00

her eyeballs at me sending me

11:02

into flames the lighting me on

11:04

fire like it was the amount

11:06

of judgment seemed to me completely

11:09

out of proportion yeah with this

11:11

one little plastic spoon and This

11:13

is maybe silly on my part,

11:15

but at that age I found

11:17

that so off-putting and like repellent

11:19

It made me like have some

11:22

like yucky feeling about Environmentalist stuff

11:24

for a little bit Okay, so Gull has

11:26

been on the side of not so

11:28

friendly advice So she gets it, but

11:30

I wanted to know why she decided

11:32

to start this column now? What is it

11:34

about this very specific moment? We're in

11:37

that made her think this is what

11:39

the people need so I think that

11:41

there is a lot of emphasis these

11:43

days on, you know, you've probably heard

11:45

people talk about like optimization culture. Yeah.

11:48

And I feel like usually people talk

11:50

about how we see that showing up

11:52

in like, oh, optimize your diet, optimize

11:55

your exercise routine, that kind of stuff,

11:57

you know, like have soilens, like what?

11:59

I think like the less analyzed

12:01

version of this is like how

12:04

optimization culture is coming for our

12:06

souls and trying to tell us

12:08

to like optimize our moral lives

12:10

and optimize how good we are

12:12

as people and I think it's

12:14

great to try to be a

12:16

better person in some ways but

12:18

I think this lens can be

12:20

really really hard for people it

12:23

makes us feel like Nothing you

12:25

do is ever just going to

12:27

be good enough. Like you have

12:29

to be doing the most good

12:31

possible, otherwise you kind of suck.

12:33

And I just think that's a

12:35

pretty crushing way to live. It

12:37

also feels very performative, like who

12:39

are you doing this for? Are

12:42

you actually doing this for, you

12:44

know, I don't know, it feels,

12:46

maybe that's me jumping to a

12:48

judgment call, but yeah. Yeah, I

12:50

mean, I think sometimes it can

12:52

be performative. Sometimes there are people

12:54

who genuinely feel like, oh my

12:56

God, I really want to be

12:59

good, and that means I always

13:01

have to be doing the most

13:03

good possible. Otherwise, like, I'm falling

13:05

short. And I had a kind

13:07

of life-changing conversation with my best

13:09

friend once, who is a mathematician

13:11

and very rigorous sort of analytical

13:13

thinking. But she said to me,

13:15

you're goal is not to optimize

13:18

every possible outcome, which like you

13:20

cannot control. Your goal is to

13:22

live in line with your values

13:24

as best you can. And like

13:26

that was really kind of like

13:28

a aha moment for me. And

13:30

we talked about how like that's

13:32

really challenging because we have multiple

13:35

values and sometimes they conflict with

13:37

each other. And then when I

13:39

discovered value pluralism, I thought, oh

13:41

my God, this is such a

13:43

helpful lens for me. So maybe

13:45

it can be helpful for other

13:47

people too. Your latest column is

13:49

about travel, climate change, and trying

13:51

our best. Can you describe that

13:54

question to us? What was this

13:56

person asking? So someone submitted a

13:58

question to your mileage. that I

14:00

think is really relatable. She

14:02

was saying, look, I really care

14:04

about climate change. Normally, the advice

14:07

given is like, avoid flying

14:09

because flights generate a very huge

14:11

amount of carbon emissions, like not

14:13

good for the climate, take a

14:15

train or a bus, or like

14:18

your hybrid car, whatever, instead. But

14:20

this person lives in a kind

14:22

of area that is like disconnected

14:25

from public transport. So she

14:27

is. more than 12 hours drive away

14:29

from the nearest city. Oh wow, yeah,

14:31

yeah. So like there aren't buses, there

14:33

aren't trains, like that's not an option

14:36

for her. And so she really tries

14:38

to avoid flying, but like if

14:40

she never takes a flight, that

14:42

means she's like never going to

14:44

go on vacation anywhere? Yeah. Beyond

14:46

her like immediate vicinity. So she

14:48

was like, should I take zero

14:50

flights ever or can I take

14:53

like one flight per year? but

14:55

she's starting to feel super resentful

14:57

because she sees her friends are

14:59

flying out super carefree they're flying

15:01

every month to like watch a

15:03

game and so she feels like

15:06

her like one individual lifestyle choice

15:08

is like being erased by the

15:10

actions of her friends and she's

15:12

getting really resentful about it yeah

15:14

what was your initial reaction

15:16

when you read that question

15:19

honestly like my gut initial reaction

15:21

was like Oh, honey. Like, yeah, I'm

15:23

kind of like, okay, all right, I'm

15:25

glad you said that because I was

15:27

kind of like, listen, I love me

15:30

a little vacate. I'm not gonna

15:32

not go to my friend's wedding

15:34

or Bachelorette party. Like, listen, I've

15:37

reduced my food waste. I recycle. Sorry,

15:39

Kylie Jenner has a private jet. I'm

15:41

not going to feel bad for being,

15:43

like, Southwest Aylist, like, but then I

15:46

was like, wow, maybe I'm a bad

15:48

person. Well, it's one of these things

15:50

where like bamboozles our brain, right? Yeah.

15:53

Like, I found it really relatable and honestly

15:55

got me thinking more about my own

15:57

emissions. I felt like a core thing

15:59

embedded. in this question was like

16:01

this question of should we

16:03

be like moral purists or

16:05

absolutists? Like should we take

16:08

this sort of purist path

16:10

and doing extreme self-sacrifice to

16:12

never ever ever fly or

16:14

is it like look we

16:16

also value other things like

16:18

nurturing relationships with our friends

16:20

or our family who live

16:22

far away maybe or we

16:24

value learning about other cultures

16:26

or like developing your career

16:28

or whatever it is? So

16:30

my response was about helping

16:32

this person think through like

16:34

yes climate is a super

16:36

important value great given your

16:38

circumstances especially I don't think

16:40

we necessarily have to say

16:42

we're gonna never ever ever

16:45

take a single flight for

16:47

the rest of our lives

16:49

I think it's great to

16:51

minimize how much we fly

16:53

and I really I'm trying

16:55

to like cut down how

16:57

much I fly but I

16:59

wouldn't counsel people to try

17:01

to take the purest absolutest

17:03

path unless They are one

17:05

of those like magical beings

17:07

who can do that without

17:09

becoming resentful or judgmental of

17:11

others. So what does philosophy

17:13

have to say about flying?

17:15

One more break and we'll

17:17

find out. Can you talk

17:20

through the process of answering

17:22

this question about flying? Like

17:24

how did you go about...

17:26

quote, unquote, finding the answer.

17:28

Okay, so this is like

17:30

where it helps to have

17:32

a little bit of background

17:34

in philosophy from my academic

17:36

days, I guess, being a

17:38

big nerd, that I immediately

17:40

thought of this essay I

17:42

love by this philosopher, contemporary

17:44

philosopher, her name is Susan

17:46

Wolf. And she wrote this

17:48

really awesome influential essay called

17:50

Moral Saints. And she basically

17:52

writes about like this. category

17:55

of people that are trying

17:57

to basically do that thing

17:59

of optimizing their morality. like

18:01

the most good possible. And

18:03

she writes that that's like

18:05

not necessarily great all the

18:07

time because if you're trying

18:09

to spend every single moment

18:11

of your life like raising

18:13

money to donate to Oxfam,

18:15

then you're not spending any

18:17

time cultivating your musical talents or

18:20

like reading cool novels or

18:22

developing your awesome sense of

18:24

fashion or like whatever else.

18:26

that makes a human life

18:28

rich and meaningful and like

18:30

makes you a cool, interesting

18:32

person that like other people

18:34

value being around. So Susan Wolf,

18:37

that is like a super great essay

18:39

that I recommend for people about like

18:41

the downsides of being a moral saint.

18:43

So I knew for sure I wanted

18:46

to draw on that. And then I also

18:48

thought about how with the purest path,

18:50

there's something psychologically appealing to

18:52

some people about it because

18:55

It does make it really easy in

18:57

your brain when you think like what

18:59

is the okay number of flights for

19:01

me to take per year? The answer

19:03

is very clear. Zero. Mm. Like

19:05

you have certainty, you feel like

19:07

boom, it's super clear, I know

19:09

I'm doing my duty, whereas if

19:11

you're like taking the more moderate

19:13

approach, it's like how many flights

19:15

is okay? Is it like three

19:17

per year, one per year, one

19:19

per decade? Like who knows? It

19:21

feels very subjective, right. can cause anxiety

19:24

and uncertainty. So that made me

19:26

think about this other philosopher,

19:28

Bernard Williams, and I wanted to

19:30

pull in his argument that, you

19:33

know, he says, we love the appeal

19:35

of objectivity, like we have in

19:37

the sciences, it makes us feel

19:39

invulnerable. It makes us feel like

19:41

no one is going to be

19:43

able to come and accuse us

19:45

of making the wrong decision or

19:47

choice, because look. It's objective. The data

19:49

says, like, that's the thing to do.

19:52

Yeah. And he says it's a fantasy

19:54

to think that we can import objectivity,

19:56

like we have in the sciences, into

19:58

the domain of ethics. not a thing.

20:00

Okay, it sounds like this has

20:03

been a conversation going on for

20:05

a long time because sometimes I

20:07

think we are more uncomfortable with

20:09

uncertainty now more than ever and

20:11

we try to optimize everything, even

20:13

our interpersonal relationships. Does this feel

20:15

like a newer trend or more

20:17

extreme or is this just like

20:19

a case of, okay, there's nothing

20:21

new under the sun? Yeah, so...

20:23

This kind of actually goes back

20:25

400 years and I won't bore

20:27

you with a whole like history

20:29

spiel but basically this goes back

20:31

to like the invention of calculus

20:33

and like when the scientific method

20:35

was getting rolling and people started

20:37

to like have this notion of

20:40

facts and objectivity and oh my

20:42

god how awesome we can be

20:44

certain about things we can have

20:46

like certain knowledge in the world

20:48

great and that works awesome for

20:50

certain things in life right like

20:52

that works great in science for

20:54

example it works great if you're

20:56

trying to like make antibiotics it

20:58

does not work great in the

21:00

moral domain because like morality is

21:02

notoriously contested we've been arguing for

21:04

thousands of years about what is

21:06

the good and there's still no

21:08

consensus And we have so many

21:10

different competing moral values. So it's

21:12

not a good fit for that

21:14

kind of thinking. Our culture nowadays

21:17

is so saturated with like tech

21:19

bro energy and like Silicon Valley

21:21

mentality of like we can engineer

21:23

our way through any problem. Every

21:25

life problem is a math problem.

21:27

That it like calms you into

21:29

thinking. that you can bring that

21:31

same like calculator energy to all

21:33

aspects of your life and including

21:35

the moral one and I just

21:37

think that's a fantasy. The next

21:39

time a reader or a listener

21:41

finds themselves with a moral conundrum

21:43

which you know they pop up

21:45

aside from you know calling them

21:47

in or submitting them to you

21:49

what questions do you think they

21:51

should ask themselves to kind of

21:54

like figure out for themselves what

21:56

the quote-unquote right answer is. Yeah

21:58

okay I love that. I would

22:00

say, look under the hood of your

22:02

dilemma. What are the values that

22:04

you have that are intention here?

22:06

Because that's what's creating this

22:08

dilemma for you. It's not

22:10

about the actual nitty gritty

22:12

facts of the situation. It's

22:14

about the fact that within

22:16

yourself you have multiple different

22:18

things you value and they're in

22:20

conflict with each other. Can you

22:22

think through these values and figure

22:25

out, is there one you want to

22:27

put more weight on? because you're not

22:29

putting 100% of your eggs in one

22:31

of the baskets. Or maybe it's like

22:34

a life situation where you're like, I'm

22:36

honest to God, like 50-50 torn between

22:38

these different values. Okay, so how could

22:41

you balance between them? What could that

22:43

look like concretely to balance between them

22:45

and not torture yourself with guilt because

22:47

you're not putting 100% of your eggs

22:50

in one of the baskets? Maybe the

22:52

morally appropriate thing to do in the

22:54

situation is to be like, I'm going

22:56

to put 50% in this. basket and

22:59

50% in this one. Maybe that makes

23:01

sense for you in that scenario. Yeah.

23:03

What's a real life example of trying

23:05

to balance between two values? So I'll

23:07

go back to the one that I

23:10

personally find most, it's the one about

23:12

like caring for others, caring for yourself.

23:14

Yeah, yeah. I have really struggled

23:16

with this with my own family.

23:18

I love my family members so

23:21

much. I felt very torn between,

23:23

like, on the one hand, wanting

23:25

to do everything I possibly can

23:28

for them, for my grandmother, for

23:30

my dad, you know, wanting to

23:32

just sacrifice whatever. And on the

23:35

other side, being like, you know, I

23:37

also value my mental health. I

23:39

also like value having well-being

23:42

and, like, stability in my

23:44

life and... You know, if you're

23:46

sacrificing for others to the point

23:48

where it's really taking a massive

23:50

toll on your own mental health,

23:52

is that going to be

23:54

sustainable? First of all, like would

23:56

your family members want that? Is that

23:59

fair to you? You're also a

24:01

human person who counts as much

24:03

as the other people do. Is

24:05

that fair to your friends, your

24:07

children, your other folks you value

24:09

in life who are also counting

24:11

on you to be able to

24:13

show up for them in different

24:15

ways? So that's I think that's

24:17

like probably one that a lot

24:19

of us can relate to. Can

24:22

you give us a preview of

24:24

some questions you'll be answering soon?

24:26

Ooh. Honestly. I feel like it

24:28

might be that time when I

24:30

need to tackle the like, is

24:32

it ethical to stay on Twitter

24:34

or Facebook one? Okay, yeah, I'm

24:36

very much interested in that one.

24:38

I am still on Twitter and

24:40

Facebook. I don't like it, but

24:42

I feel like I need it

24:44

for my job. We're staying connected

24:47

to certain friends. So I like

24:49

haven't tackled that question yet, but

24:51

maybe I will. But it's honestly,

24:53

like, it's good because it's getting

24:55

these questions. pokes at me and

24:57

forces me to think through things

24:59

that otherwise I might not like

25:01

fully think through. All right, Sagal

25:03

Samuel, thank you so much for

25:05

explaining this to us. My pleasure,

25:07

thank you. That's Sagal Samuel. She's

25:09

a senior reporter here at Fox

25:12

and writes though your mileage may

25:14

vary column. You can find a

25:16

link to her work in our

25:18

show notes. And just because Sagal

25:20

answers questions, doesn't mean she doesn't

25:22

have some of her own. I

25:24

personally donate a fair bit of

25:26

money to like anti-poverty groups, like

25:28

give directly, which I think is

25:30

great, but sometimes I do wonder

25:32

on like a systems level, will

25:35

we just always have poverty? Is

25:37

that a built-in feature of our

25:39

world that is impossible to eradicate?

25:41

So, if you have a question

25:43

of your own, give us a

25:45

call. We're at 1,800, 618, 845,

25:47

and we would love to hear

25:49

from you. That's it for this

25:51

episode of Explain It to Me.

25:53

It was edited by Jorge Just,

25:55

and fact-checked by Caitlin Pinsi Moog,

25:57

mixing, sound design, and engineering this

26:00

week by Christian Ayala. Supervising producer

26:02

is Carla Javier. Special thanks to

26:04

Patrick Boyd and Rob Byers. If

26:06

you like the works, Sogal and

26:08

I do, consider becoming a Vox

26:10

member. Not only does it make

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to vox.com/members to learn more. Thanks

26:20

for supporting our journalism. Thanks for

26:22

listening. And thanks for calling in

26:25

your questions and reflections. Talk to

26:27

you soon. Bye.