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0:56

U.S. stock markets just

0:58

ended up getting worse. What

1:01

will happen? I want a

1:03

crystal ball to get to do

1:05

this. Hey, you're listening to explain

1:07

it to me. I'm John Glenn

1:09

Hill. And I know I'm not

1:11

supposed to, but after hearing all

1:14

of this news about the economy,

1:16

it's ups, it's downs. I did

1:18

the thing they tell us not

1:20

to do. I looked at my

1:22

401k. And you guys, it was

1:24

not cute. I started to

1:27

worry. Even more so for my

1:29

parents and other people their age.

1:31

There's so much closer to needing

1:33

that money than I am right

1:36

now. I am 58 years old

1:38

and I'm currently thinking about hiring

1:40

from my state job and wondering

1:42

how do you know when you've

1:44

got enough money? How do you

1:47

know? Hi, this is Claire. I'm

1:49

66. I want to retire. I

1:51

need to retire. I'm so stressed

1:53

out. I'm so stressed out. I

1:56

have a one year old grandson.

1:58

I should retire, but I'm too

2:00

terrified. to because of everything that

2:02

I see. Hi Claire. Hi how

2:04

are you? What are some of

2:07

the big questions you have about

2:09

retirement right now? Mostly it's am

2:11

I going to be able to

2:13

have Social Security? I feel like

2:16

its legs are trying to get

2:18

cut out from under it and

2:20

it's going to collapse from the

2:22

weight. I feel like prices of

2:24

everything is going to go up,

2:27

the housing market is going to

2:29

collapse. So I'm trying to find,

2:31

mostly I want a crystal ball

2:33

to get through this. I just

2:36

want to know what I can

2:38

do now to protect myself more

2:40

than what I've been thinking of.

2:42

This is unfortunately something that we

2:45

have heard a lot from a

2:47

lot of our readers. This is

2:49

Noah Shilower. Economy reporter at Business

2:51

Insider at Business Insider. He has

2:53

a particular focus on older Americans.

2:56

I called him up because he's

2:58

heard from more than 3,000 baby

3:00

boomers. It seems almost every conversation

3:02

that I have with older Americans

3:05

talk about that in some regard,

3:07

where a lot of people are

3:09

saying, I prepared well, but how

3:11

well did I prepare? Or some

3:13

people are saying, well, I don't

3:16

have a ton of money right

3:18

now, and I'm really nervous. And

3:20

we have noticed this across the

3:22

board, across wealthy individuals, people who

3:25

are lower income, people who are

3:27

relying on a lot of these

3:29

social services. The Trump administration is

3:31

saying we won't touch Social Security,

3:33

we won't touch benefits, but we

3:36

are seeing a lot of changes

3:38

right now. And we have spoken

3:40

with a lot of these older

3:42

Americans who are saying, well, I

3:45

used to be able to get

3:47

through to Social Security in 15

3:49

minutes about a concern with my

3:51

benefits. Now I'm on the phone

3:53

for four or five hours. we

3:56

are hearing from a lot of

3:58

people who are concerned about the

4:00

future of Social Security. Will I

4:02

continue getting the same allocation that

4:05

I'm getting right now? And then

4:07

you have just in general. a

4:09

lot of older Americans are working

4:11

later. So they're living longer, but

4:13

they're also having to work a

4:16

lot longer. We are seeing some

4:18

pushes right now among some representatives

4:20

in Congress to potentially even push

4:22

back the retirement age from 67

4:25

to 69 or 70. So there's

4:27

definitely a lot of fear that

4:29

a lot of older Americans have,

4:31

that they will need to keep

4:33

working or they'll have to work

4:36

until their 70s to supplement Social

4:38

Security. What are you looking for

4:40

to better understand how this economy

4:42

is impacting older Americans? So we're

4:45

looking at a lot of factors

4:47

right now, a lot of indicators.

4:49

The main thing that we're currently

4:51

looking at is asset prices, a

4:53

lot of... older Americans who have

4:56

a lot of equity in their

4:58

homes and their home is essentially

5:00

their retirement. This is a lot

5:02

of money for some people. It's

5:05

six, seven figures worth of retirement

5:07

money. And if a lot of

5:09

their equity goes down, if the

5:11

housing market kind of collapses a

5:14

little bit, that will get messed

5:16

up for a lot of people.

5:18

And it's hard for older Americans

5:20

to downsize as well because there's,

5:22

you know, not a lot of

5:25

houses on the market right now

5:27

that are... selling for affordable rights.

5:29

With inflation, there's many different ways

5:31

of analyzing it. There's a measure

5:34

that we use called the Alice

5:36

Essentials Index. Asset Limited, income constrained,

5:38

employed. They look specifically at what's

5:40

considered an essential. So grocery costs,

5:42

for example, or housing, other sorts

5:45

of medical expenses. This is what

5:47

people need to survive. So this

5:49

is a very interesting metric that

5:51

we use to look at, well,

5:54

okay, how is inflation impacting the

5:56

person who is 75 and still

5:58

working and is very cautious about?

6:00

their spending. And it's indicative that

6:02

inflation is rising a little bit

6:05

more for some of those essentials

6:07

than it is for some of

6:09

the other goods that they might

6:11

not be purchasing on a

6:13

daily basis. For those that

6:15

are panicking, are they panicking

6:18

unnecessarily? Do they need to be

6:20

this concerned? I don't think that

6:22

there is really a type of

6:25

unnecessary panic. There's a lot of

6:27

change happening right now, there's a

6:29

lot of uncertainty occurring right now,

6:31

and people have lost a lot

6:33

of money. When the S&B is

6:36

down 10 plus percent this year,

6:38

that's a lot of money that

6:40

older Americans were relying on. It's

6:42

a little scary for a lot

6:44

of people. This is a lot of

6:46

money that people were banking on,

6:49

and they don't know if they

6:51

should be... relying more on other

6:53

sorts of income and then they

6:55

won't touch their 401k. So it's

6:57

definitely all very valid, but I

6:59

also think some of them are

7:01

a little bit misguided. Especially

7:05

because Social Security benefits have not

7:07

been cut. They have not cut

7:09

Medicaid yet. They have not touched

7:11

Medicare yet. We just don't know

7:13

what will happen. And we have

7:16

been hearing from a lot of

7:18

financial experts who this is their

7:20

job. They speak with people who

7:22

have been doing this for 30,

7:24

40 years. And they say you

7:26

should stay tight. Hang on. And

7:28

don't do anything too drastic that

7:31

you may regret later. Okay,

7:34

so don't do anything you would

7:36

regret. Easier said than done though,

7:38

so how can you prepare for

7:40

the worst case scenario? I'm going

7:42

to ask one of my

7:45

favorite personal finance columnists after

7:47

this break. Support for Explain It

7:49

to Me comes from the

7:51

NPR Politics podcast. Keeping up

7:54

with Politics means processing a

7:56

whirlwind of information on the

7:59

daily. The Ryan

8:55

Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The

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9:25

only. Then full price plan

9:27

options available. See full terms

9:29

at mintmobile.com. We're back, it's

9:31

explaining to me. And I'm

9:33

here now with Michelle Singletary,

9:35

Personal Finance Columnist with the

9:37

Washington Post. Are you a

9:39

baby boomer? Yeah. I mean,

9:41

like many people, I'm stressed

9:43

to the Max. You know,

9:45

I've got a couple of

9:47

years or so before I

9:49

was thinking, okay, maybe I'll

9:51

retire. So I still have

9:53

about three or four years

9:55

before I had that. serious

9:57

conversation with myself. My husband,

9:59

however, is retired and has

10:01

been since 2023. So we're

10:03

looking at his retirement account.

10:05

We're looking at my retirement

10:07

account. He's not as stressed

10:09

as I am because he's

10:11

always the glasses have full

10:13

kind of person. I'm not

10:15

only is the glass half

10:17

empty. It's like it needs

10:19

another glass for some water.

10:21

So, very, you know, very

10:23

concerned because you don't know

10:25

when the end is near.

10:27

And that's the issue with

10:29

retirement planning. I mean, if we

10:32

knew when we are going to

10:34

pass away, if we knew how

10:36

much health care would we need,

10:38

if we knew what the housing

10:41

market would we do with the,

10:43

we'd be all calm. But it's

10:45

the unknown. And so I am

10:47

punching a lot of pillows and

10:49

crying and screaming and doing a

10:52

little cussing, but trying to not

10:54

let the fear dictate moves.

10:56

And that's the key. Yeah,

10:58

what do you fear that

11:01

could happen? What's the like

11:03

worst case scenario? Historically,

11:06

the markets do return eventually. People

11:08

come back, company, I mean, the

11:10

underlying part of America, the economy

11:12

is still strong. So it's the

11:14

fear is how long will it

11:16

take? And if you have to

11:18

draw down on your retirement funds,

11:21

that is what is disconcerting because

11:23

it's the balance is lower. And

11:25

so you are pulling it out

11:27

at a time where you're definitely

11:29

going to lock in recent losses.

11:31

And then that means that'll be

11:33

less. left to grow even when

11:35

the market returns. When you are

11:38

retired and drawing on that that

11:40

is the fear that you'll have less

11:42

and you'll have less at a time

11:44

when you need more like for health

11:47

care. Okay so I was particularly

11:49

interested in this episode because my

11:51

parents are boomers and you know

11:53

I tend to give that generation

11:55

a lot of grief but it

11:58

does come from a place. of

12:00

love, you know, what advice do

12:02

you have for listeners who are

12:04

like me where you want to

12:06

be able to help the older

12:08

people in your life, whether that's

12:10

with advice or anything else? Well,

12:12

it's understandable that you're concerned about

12:15

your parents and also lots of

12:17

parents, you know, you don't necessarily

12:19

want to reveal everything, especially if

12:22

you're feeling bad that you don't

12:24

have enough money. But I think

12:26

this is a good opportunity to

12:28

have open conversations. How do you

12:31

recommend that listeners start that conversation

12:33

with the retirement age folks in

12:35

their lives? Just you know like

12:37

the next time you say hey,

12:40

you know, I'd love to talk

12:42

to you about this because I'm

12:44

a little worried You know, I'm

12:46

saving for retirement and This is

12:48

what's concerning me and then you

12:51

say how about you? What you

12:53

don't want to do is like

12:55

do you have any money? What's

12:57

going on? You know, you don't

12:59

want to come out like you

13:01

are now the parent you you

13:04

should see each other as companions

13:06

and accountability partners and come at

13:08

them saying you know I want

13:10

to help you if you're concerned

13:12

because I'm concerned and so you

13:14

make it more like you're going

13:16

to be working at this together

13:19

because if you find it that

13:21

they are or they were not

13:23

ready that you have to be

13:25

sure that you have secured your

13:27

finances so that if you have

13:29

to step up to help there

13:31

are some resources there to help

13:33

them. What should people prioritize when

13:35

they look at their finances? I

13:38

think right now in this moment

13:40

cash is keen. I would be

13:42

stockpiling cash in a high-yield savings

13:44

account in case you lose your

13:46

job, in case the economy really

13:48

does go into a recession if

13:51

it gets worse than it is

13:53

now. I don't want to panic

13:55

people, although it's perfectly fine if

13:57

you're scared, because that's just human

13:59

nature. But I will say the prudent

14:02

thing right now is to say, don't

14:04

go into any kind of debt. or

14:06

use a lot of cash that you

14:08

might need if you lose your job.

14:11

Now, my husband and I are not

14:13

in that situation, but we did pull

14:15

back on a major home improvement project

14:17

that we were going to do, just

14:20

to see how things shake out. That's

14:22

the kind of conversation you should be

14:24

having with yourself. But if you're not

14:26

on a budget right now, you need

14:28

to get on a budget yesterday. What

14:31

advice do you have for people who

14:33

are at retirement age, but haven't been

14:35

able to save as much? to play

14:37

catch up. Yeah, the first thing I

14:40

would say is don't beat yourself up.

14:42

You know, you are where you are

14:44

and accept that, but do something about

14:46

it. So if you would... getting close

14:49

to retirement, or are you about that,

14:51

or a time where you think, then

14:53

you've got to make some hard decisions.

14:55

Are you ready to retire? You might

14:58

say, I want to retire no matter

15:00

what. Well, you can't retire at 62,

15:02

you don't have enough. Many people work

15:04

into their late 60s and 70s and

15:07

80s, so if that's you, that might

15:09

be what you have to do. And

15:11

or you look at your housing situation,

15:13

because aside from some of your other

15:15

bills, housing is the... biggest part of

15:18

your budget. So you might have to

15:20

say, you know what, those young adults

15:22

that was asking me about my money,

15:24

maybe I have to move in with

15:27

them or they move in with me.

15:29

So you got to look at the

15:31

big ticket items and then you make

15:33

decisions by that. So let's say you're

15:36

near retirement, but you can't work anymore,

15:38

you're not healthy, then you look at

15:40

collecting Social Security a little earlier. Are

15:42

there resources available for people who don't

15:45

have as much saved? So two places

15:47

I really recommend people to go. First

15:49

of all is AARP. They have a

15:51

whole section on their website for retiring,

15:54

retiring in place, long-term care information, how

15:56

to do your state planning, and then

15:58

also your local aging office, it has

16:00

a tremendous amount of resources for those

16:03

who may not have enough, who have

16:05

housing insecurity or food insecurity, and then

16:07

hopefully you're connected to some community group,

16:09

whether it's through your faith or some

16:11

other group, get connected in your community

16:14

because there are some resources that can

16:16

help you, but you won't know if

16:18

you're not connected. Financial

16:20

advice can admittedly be a little

16:22

frustrating because I think we hear

16:24

the same thing over and over

16:27

again, you know, like, sit tight,

16:29

stay the course, don't make any

16:31

rash decisions. What do you say

16:33

to people who feel antsy right

16:35

now who want a different answer

16:37

than what they usually hear? So

16:39

this happens a lot. People want,

16:41

they ask you a question and

16:43

they really have already rained up

16:45

their mind. They want you to

16:48

co-sign on a bad situation. Listen,

16:50

good advice is good advice no

16:52

matter what. And people want a

16:54

microwave answer to a problem that

16:56

need to be baked in the

16:58

oven. And so you can't microwave

17:00

your way away from situations like

17:02

we're going right now. You just

17:04

can't. We know by history, that's

17:06

how we look at things, you

17:09

know, the market eventually returns historically.

17:11

Could it change in the future?

17:13

Sure it can, but we have

17:15

decades and decades of data that

17:17

show that when we go into

17:19

an economic downturn, we come out.

17:21

It's in everybody's interest that that

17:23

happens. And you have to feel

17:25

what you need to feel. I

17:27

will not tell you not to

17:30

panic when the mic goes down.

17:32

I will not tell you that

17:34

because it is human to be

17:36

mad and angry and upset and

17:38

scared. Be all of those. Just

17:40

don't make decisions in that moment.

17:42

So depending on a lot of

17:44

different factors, some of us may

17:46

be in the workforce longer than

17:49

we anticipated. Or we may have

17:51

to go back on the job

17:53

market after we've left it. How

17:55

can generations work together in the

17:57

workplace? Stay tuned. Right

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Shorthand labels leaped into the

19:13

workplace. Okay, so we heard

19:15

from a lot of you

19:18

about your concerns around 401ks,

19:20

but we also got a

19:22

call from Martian Oklahoma who

19:24

had another kind of concern

19:26

about her generation. So I

19:29

am about to turn 70

19:31

and was requested to apply

19:33

for and hired for a

19:35

job of some significance. I

19:38

think and prior to this,

19:40

I've always been one who

19:42

thought by the age of

19:44

70, you were irrelevant in

19:46

the workplace. So what I'm

19:49

interested in hearing is, how

19:51

does the workforce do boomers

19:53

in the workplace? And what

19:55

are some of the annoyances?

19:58

that somebody my age or

20:00

the boomer generation should be

20:02

sensitive to in the workplace.

20:04

Thanks very much. This is

20:06

Marsha. Our producer Gabrielle called

20:09

Marsha Back to hear more

20:11

about her new job working

20:13

for the city of Tulsa.

20:15

Did you start the job?

20:18

I did, yeah. I mean,

20:20

I'm just days away from

20:22

70 years old, so I

20:24

just still felt like I

20:26

had something to give and...

20:29

And I still do today,

20:31

it's everything, the way it

20:33

works is so interesting to

20:35

me. What were you worried

20:37

about going into this job

20:40

with regards to working with

20:42

people who were younger? I

20:44

think I was worried about

20:46

walking in and then thinking,

20:49

what, you know, could this

20:51

old person possibly have to

20:53

contribute, you know what I

20:55

mean? Because... Oh, I'm like,

20:57

don't talk about Marsha that

21:00

way. I just wondered if

21:02

today's workforce, which certainly in

21:04

this administration where I'm working,

21:06

is skis younger, which is

21:09

great, what feelings they harbor

21:11

about having to carry older

21:13

workers, you know, on their

21:15

shoulders. That's a great question

21:17

and it shows, you know,

21:20

great self-awareness and humility. My

21:22

initial reaction is don't be

21:24

too worried. We

21:27

posed Marsha's question to Professor

21:29

Bobby Duffy. He lives across

21:31

the pond where he studies

21:33

generational differences at the Policy

21:35

Institute at King's College London.

21:37

There is definitely a more

21:39

general perception that boomers are

21:41

generally greedy. The kind of...

21:43

Theme is a sense of

21:45

selfishness. And for the younger

21:47

generations, like Jinzi, the most

21:49

entitled generation, the most difficult

21:51

generation in the workplace, that

21:53

they can't be bothered to

21:55

check emails, having breakdowns about

21:57

the difficulty of a nine

21:59

to five job. You can

22:01

go all the way back

22:03

to the Industrial Revolution, where

22:05

things were changing fast, and

22:07

there was a sense that

22:09

younger generations had a better

22:11

understanding of the technology that

22:13

was coming through. Older generations

22:15

were becoming a bit obsolete.

22:17

But I think it's worse

22:19

today in many ways, because

22:22

we also do have a

22:24

much more stereotypical view through

22:26

our social media and media

22:28

environment of what are very

22:30

exaggerated. view of the differences

22:32

between the generations or the

22:34

characters of individual generations. You

22:36

studied how much these stereotypes

22:38

hold up in reality. What

22:40

data were you collecting and

22:42

where from? What I do

22:44

is I look at very

22:46

long-term surveys going back to

22:48

50s and 60s. So really

22:50

big studies like the general

22:52

social survey in the US,

22:54

massive annual study. that gives

22:56

you like measures of all

22:58

different aspects of attitudes and

23:00

behaviors and the key thing

23:02

is to do over a

23:04

long enough term so you

23:06

can see that this is

23:08

something to do with this

23:10

particular generation being different. Did

23:12

you find that these generational

23:14

stereotypes hold up to reality?

23:16

No. Very often they don't

23:18

at all. The gap between

23:20

young and old today is...

23:22

is very similar to the

23:24

gap between young and old

23:26

in the past. So baby

23:28

boomers were also much more

23:30

comfortable with different changing social

23:32

norms when they were young

23:34

compared to their parents and

23:36

grandparents. So in fact when

23:38

I look across decades of

23:40

this data there is no

23:43

particularly big divide between young

23:45

and old. today compared to

23:47

the past, although it feels

23:49

like that partly because our

23:51

media or social media really

23:53

emphasize and exaggerate the differences

23:55

between the generations. Who does

23:57

that myth-making serve? It kind

23:59

of refers... back to firstly the

24:01

change in our information environment and

24:03

particularly in media and social media.

24:05

Boomers really are the most out

24:08

of touch and entitled generation there

24:10

is and it's not even close.

24:13

Sick day, okay, you're you don't

24:15

sound terrible. Do you mind just

24:17

turning on your camera so I

24:20

can see that you're actually sick?

24:22

I think that context of we've

24:24

created this information environment where these

24:27

are shorthand labels for stereotypes does

24:29

get does imbue itself into our

24:32

general understanding of these generations and

24:34

that leaks into the workplace. Genzi

24:36

at work of course I'm closing my laptop

24:39

at 5 p.m.m. on the dot. I'm a

24:41

Genzi Incorporated. What do you mean? What

24:43

is a mental health day? Figure it

24:45

out because I've taken one a month.

24:47

Sorry! I just worked eight hours and you

24:49

expect me to go make dinner right now.

24:52

But then I think there's an important

24:54

second element to this is that

24:56

people can make money out of

24:58

these divides. And you can see,

25:00

you know, on LinkedIn there are

25:03

people who call themselves millennial consultants

25:05

with a sparse wave of the

25:07

population that they have particular insight

25:09

in. So it's kind of creating

25:11

a problem to solve the problem

25:13

and charge you for it. Are

25:18

there benefits you found

25:20

to intergenerational workplaces?

25:22

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think this

25:24

is a growing area of study and

25:27

interest because there are

25:29

some great examples of

25:31

individual organizations, setting

25:33

in place schemes that

25:35

deliberately bring different generations

25:37

together around a particular

25:40

problem or strategy or

25:42

open up competitions across

25:44

generations across generations. And

25:46

you can see. that

25:48

those organizations who start to

25:50

do those things end up being

25:53

more innovative, coming up with more

25:55

ideas, they're more resilient and adaptable.

25:58

And I think the key... to

26:00

that is connecting people, getting over those

26:02

stereotypes. And the only way to get

26:04

over those stereotypes and think of each

26:07

other as assets to the business is

26:09

to have more contact. Do you have

26:11

any practical tips for baby boomers who

26:13

are navigating intergenerational workplaces? And especially for

26:16

those who maybe were like stopped working,

26:18

now they're back, or you know, it's

26:20

like, okay, I'm gonna have to work

26:23

a little longer, I'm gonna be with

26:25

people who are younger than me. How

26:27

should they navigate that? Yeah, I think

26:29

the first bit of the tips on

26:32

this I think is to not be

26:34

overly worried about the difference that people

26:36

aren't as different as the stereotypes that

26:38

you'll have seen. Then the second

26:41

point is that we are

26:43

living much more separately across

26:45

the generations than we have

26:47

at any point in human

26:49

history. We've kind of sorted

26:51

young people into cities, older

26:53

people outside. We've got digital

26:55

lives where... different generations are

26:57

doing very different things on

26:59

different platforms to different intensity.

27:01

So the workplace is one

27:03

of the few places where

27:05

we're pushed together. Connections across

27:07

the generations benefit both the

27:09

older and the younger side

27:11

of that equally. So like

27:13

while you were talking when

27:15

you said the word resilience,

27:17

I immediately jumped on that

27:19

word because in like in

27:21

group think sort of discussions,

27:23

it sort of feels like

27:25

the millennials have these what

27:28

they believe are these fresh

27:30

new great ideas that boomers

27:32

have probably sort of seen

27:34

in some fashion. And so

27:36

if the boomer speaks up

27:38

against them, that it's like

27:40

we're afraid to try new

27:42

things. But the truth is

27:44

if you had the right

27:46

collaboration. What we've learned from

27:48

maybe doing it and not

27:50

doing it right the first

27:52

time, taking their idea and

27:54

our... may be known pitfalls.

27:56

This is where the resilience

27:58

of something good, you know,

28:00

can come out of it.

28:02

How is it going so

28:04

far? Like how is working

28:06

with your younger colleagues? It's

28:08

great. I don't want to

28:10

be part of, if a

28:12

group of them goes for

28:14

a happy hour, I don't

28:16

want to be and don't

28:18

feel like I need to

28:21

be part of that because

28:23

they kind of gather at

28:25

my... desk in the mornings

28:27

to kind of set the

28:29

day off and I get

28:31

to hear about the evening

28:33

before anyway. So I like

28:35

that because I feel like

28:37

they're wanting to share it

28:39

with me without me having

28:41

to you know have been

28:43

there. So so far really

28:45

it's it's good and I'm

28:47

more relaxed than I thought

28:49

I was that I do

28:51

want to remain self-aware. I

28:53

don't want to fall into

28:55

a trap and be a

28:57

stumbling block. And it's so

28:59

far, and I don't regret

29:01

it one bit. Well, thank

29:03

you so much for calling

29:05

in and good luck with

29:07

your new job. Thank you

29:09

so much. I appreciate it.

29:12

Thanks to everyone who called

29:14

in to share your experiences

29:16

for this episode. Coming up,

29:18

we're doing an episode about

29:20

personal style. Why it's so

29:22

hard to figure out what

29:24

to wear and what not

29:26

to wear and where to

29:28

even start when it comes

29:30

to developing your style. Are

29:32

you trying to find it?

29:34

Or have you already figured

29:36

it out? If you did,

29:38

how'd you do it? Give

29:40

us a call and leave

29:42

us a message. Our number

29:44

is 1-800-618-8545. This episode was

29:46

produced by Gabrielle Burbay and

29:48

Carla Javier who also runs

29:50

our show. It was edited

29:52

by our executive producer Miranda

29:54

Kennedy, Melissa Hirsch checked the

29:56

facts, Andrea Kristen's daughter, and

29:58

Patrick mixed and

30:00

engineered. And I'm John

30:03

I'm John Talk to you soon. to

30:05

Bye. Bye.