0:00

I'm most drawn to self-portraiture

0:02

because it's so personal, because I've

0:04

always found self-portraiture to be a kind of therapy.

0:06

If I'm... going through a very strong negative or

0:08

positive emotion, I can go out and create art

0:10

from it. And I know plenty of people do

0:12

that in other ways that do not involve using

0:14

themselves as the subject. I think it just adds

0:16

an element. I mean, even if it's just an

0:19

element of surprise, which I think is what it

0:21

is for a lot of people. They look at

0:23

my work and they say, oh, that would be

0:25

a really pretty picture, even without you in it.

0:27

And I kind of want to challenge them and

0:29

say yes, but what does it do for you

0:31

for you for you for you for you with

0:33

the human element? Well,

0:45

hey everyone. Welcome to episode

0:47

417 of Epstop, Collaborate, and

0:49

Listen. I'm your host, Matt

0:51

Payne, and I'm so excited

0:53

to bring you another inspiring

0:55

conversation about photography and the

0:57

creative journeys that shape us.

1:00

This week, I'm joined by

1:02

Sarah Kushner, a talented self-portrait

1:04

photographer who has been honing

1:06

her craft for an impressive

1:08

16 years. Sarah's work goes

1:11

far beyond simply putting herself

1:13

in the frame. It's deeply

1:15

introspective, emotionally charged, and intricately

1:17

connected to her personal journey.

1:19

Her unique perspective offers so

1:21

much for us to learn

1:23

about using photography as a

1:26

tool for storytelling, self-expression and

1:28

healing. In this episode, we

1:30

dive into Sarah's fascinating journey

1:32

as a self-portrait photographer, why she

1:34

was drawn to this specific style,

1:36

and how her creative process unfolds.

1:38

We also explore how her personal

1:40

life and professional work as a

1:42

dietician intersect with her art and

1:45

her plans to combine these passions

1:47

in future workshops. Sarah opens up

1:49

about the challenges of navigating judgment

1:51

in a space... often associated with

1:53

influencers, as well as the deeper

1:55

goals that she strives to achieve

1:57

through her photography. This conversation is

1:59

a must listen for anyone curious

2:01

about the power of self-portiture or

2:03

seeking ways to bring more authenticity

2:05

to their work. So, settle in

2:07

and join me as I chat

2:09

with Sarah Kushner. All right, Sarah

2:11

Kushner. It's great to have you

2:13

on the podcast. Great to be

2:15

here. Thank you for having me.

2:17

Absolutely, I'm really excited for this

2:19

conversation because I think we're going

2:21

to cover some topics that are

2:24

somewhat controversial in the photography space,

2:26

but also I'm really excited to

2:28

hear more about kind of the

2:30

creative side of what you're up

2:32

to. Let's kick this off by

2:34

you telling us a little bit

2:36

about who the heck Sarah Kushner

2:38

is. Great question that. Well, I

2:40

am a self-fortrait photographer. I'm also

2:42

an anti-diate registered dietitian. I like

2:44

to, you know, do a lot

2:46

of things all at one time.

2:48

I live in Seattle, Washington with

2:50

my husband and about 15 houseplants.

2:52

I'm a synchronized swimmer. That's kind

2:54

of a fun fact. I know

2:56

people make that case when I

2:58

tell them, which is cool. Gosh,

3:00

that makes you sound like I'm

3:03

so boring. Like I only do

3:05

those I'm so boring. My wife

3:07

sets a goal every year to

3:09

read books and I think this

3:11

year her goal was 500 and

3:13

she's like Five away for the

3:15

year or something like that. Oh

3:17

my gosh. Okay. Well that makes

3:19

my goal of 30 sound like

3:21

nothing. Yeah. I mean to be

3:23

fair She's a freak show reader

3:25

like crazy fast. Does she listen

3:27

and read like the show off

3:29

them both? Yes. Yes. She does

3:31

That's crazy. Yeah, that is I

3:33

have a friend actually who's similar

3:35

to that whose goal I think

3:37

is like multiple hundreds I don't

3:39

know how many she listens to

3:42

books at something like two and

3:44

a half speed She played one

3:46

for me, and I was like

3:48

my brain did not compete with

3:50

information Not that the podcast is

3:52

about that, but I often listen

3:54

to podcasts at different speeds and

3:56

I encourage because of the cadence

3:58

of my voice I encourage our

4:00

listeners to do the same because

4:02

I'm a fairly slow talker. And I

4:04

think I read a study that the brain

4:06

can't comprehend anything faster than 2X,

4:09

anything beyond that, the brain like

4:11

is filling in words and stuff

4:13

like that. So I'm usually at

4:15

like 1.5 when I listen to

4:17

stuff. All right, well your listeners might

4:19

have to do some intense thinking

4:21

during this podcast episode because I am

4:23

not a slow talker. I will do

4:26

my best. But it's really hard for

4:28

me. And now we have we

4:30

have discovered the problem with my

4:33

recommendation. All right, all right, Sarah, so

4:35

real quick, in your intro, you said

4:37

you're an anti diet dietitian,

4:39

which sounds kind of like

4:41

an oxymoron. What does that

4:43

even mean? That's a really good

4:45

question. I appreciate you asking that.

4:47

It means that I don't believe

4:49

in diets, meaning any sort of

4:51

restriction of food intake. So I

4:54

don't believe in low carb, low

4:56

fat. you know, any of the named

4:58

diets, I don't believe in intentional

5:00

weight loss. There's a lot of

5:02

research to support that intentional weight

5:04

loss actually does more harm than

5:06

good over time, and it's just not

5:08

necessary. You know, I'm a, you know, a

5:10

fat positive dietitian, you might say.

5:13

I work with people in all-sized bodies,

5:15

and I think they're all... beautiful

5:17

and worthy of respect and love and

5:19

they can all be healthy. If any

5:21

of your listeners have heard of the

5:24

health at every size movement, maybe not

5:26

because they're photographers, but it is a

5:28

science-backed idea that health and weight are

5:30

not actually linked, at least not in the

5:33

way that people or society think that they

5:35

are. So you can be perfectly healthy in

5:37

a fat body, in a thin body, in

5:39

a medium-sized body, and I just

5:41

know, you know, from personally and

5:43

professional experience, that kind of going

5:46

against your body's sort of innate way

5:48

of being is harmful more than it

5:50

is helpful. So I help people, you

5:52

know, recover their relationship with food, I

5:55

help them move towards intuitive eating,

5:57

I help them recover from eating

5:59

disorder. and work on body

6:01

image. And yeah, so I'm

6:03

a dietitian, you know, people think of that as like

6:05

anti -health. People hear that and they're like, oh, so you're

6:08

just promoting like people eating candy all the time, and like

6:10

you can eat candy whenever you want. But that is

6:12

not what I promote. So yeah,

6:14

so hopefully that is a good short answer to your

6:16

question, because I could talk about that for like a

6:18

whole other podcast episode. Well, I'm pretty sure

6:20

we've got some questions lined up that'll

6:22

give you the opportunity to get a

6:24

little bit deeper into that. So before

6:26

we go there, maybe tell us a

6:28

little bit about how you got into

6:30

photography to begin with. Yeah,

6:32

that's a good question. And one that I, you

6:35

know, people ask me that sometimes and every single

6:37

time I feel like I have to think about

6:39

it, which is funny, it was so long ago

6:41

that it takes me a second to recall, you

6:43

know, how like when was the first time that

6:45

I ever held a camera. And I think the

6:47

reason that's so hard for me to think

6:49

of is because it really has always

6:51

been this magnetic pull. I have never not

6:53

liked photography that I can remember. I mean,

6:55

once I learned what it was, you know, my

6:57

dad had, you know, an old digital

6:59

camera, an old film camera, just stuff that

7:01

I'd play around with and take photos of anything

7:03

and everything, like my hand or like, you

7:05

know, the beach, like wherever I was, I just

7:07

like had to have a camera in my

7:09

hand basically for as long as I can remember.

7:11

Once I got my own, my first camera

7:13

was a point and shoot that I got in

7:15

middle school and it was basically attached to

7:17

me. I mean, I would go to school and

7:19

like take a whole albums worth of photos

7:21

at lunchtime. I literally remember posting on Facebook one

7:23

time an album called Wednesday at lunch. It

7:25

was just photos of me and my friends at

7:27

lunch. They were not

7:29

artistic in any way, but as soon as

7:32

I had the opportunity to sign up for

7:34

a photography class in high school, I, you

7:36

know, sped my way over there and basically

7:38

never, never stopped. Yeah, so I guess the

7:40

answer is it just felt really natural. Just

7:43

felt like a thing I had to do. I

7:45

don't know, I have a hard time explaining why,

7:47

but it just felt right. And how

7:49

would you describe the

7:51

subject matter that you're

7:53

currently most interested in?

7:55

It's a good question. Also funny because of

7:57

what this whole episode is about, but. I

8:00

am a self -portrait photographer. That

8:02

is definitely my biggest interest right

8:04

now and has been since high

8:06

school. So I hesitate to say

8:08

me, because I don't really think

8:10

my self -portraits are all about me.

8:12

I think they're about the landscape and

8:14

the environment and I'm just sort of a

8:17

part of that, a part of that I

8:19

guess that is living like a tree or

8:21

like the ocean, like anything else, just in

8:23

a different way. But I have, you

8:25

know, I have this strong love of self -portraiture

8:27

and that is what I'm focusing on right now.

8:29

Well, that was succinct. Okay. So

8:31

let's dive a little bit

8:33

more into that. So my understanding

8:35

is that you've been doing

8:38

self -portrait photography for about 16

8:40

years now, not to date when

8:42

you were in high school, but

8:44

there you go, people

8:47

can figure that out. And I'm curious,

8:50

what does that journey look like

8:52

for you? Like what's the timeline in

8:54

terms of how it started and

8:56

kind of what you've evolved towards

8:58

what you're doing now? I took my first

9:00

ever self -portrait that I can remember

9:02

as part of a photography assignment. It

9:04

was, I think the assignment was

9:07

called headless portraiture and it was

9:09

any sort of portrait where you couldn't see the subject's

9:11

head. So whether it was that you cut it off,

9:13

whether it was that you hit it, you know, I

9:15

did one where I had a friend put on a

9:17

hoodie backwards and put the hood up so that you

9:19

couldn't see her face. And then I ended up taking

9:21

a self -portrait where I had really long, oh, my

9:23

hair's still pretty long, but I had like much longer

9:25

hair at the time and I wrapped it around my

9:27

face and I stood with my back to the garage

9:29

and I took a photo of me and that was

9:31

one of my headless portraits and that was really just

9:33

an experiment, you know, getting creative, testing

9:35

the boundaries of photography with

9:37

this assignment, which of course is what photography

9:40

class is for. And then shortly after that,

9:42

this would have been, I guess, my junior

9:44

year of high school, I was

9:46

on Flickr, maybe you were too, maybe

9:48

a lot of your listeners were, back

9:50

in the day. Still am. Still are,

9:52

okay. I haven't posted on Flickr

9:54

in a long time, but

9:57

this is, you know, back

9:59

when Instagram didn't exist and

10:01

so we were all making

10:03

friends on Flickr and we

10:05

were all sharing our. photos and people

10:07

would like highlight a little like wave and be like

10:09

oh that's so cute and it was just very supportive

10:11

and felt like a community and a lot of people

10:14

that I followed on Flickr I just noticed self-portraiture kind

10:16

of popping up more and I decided to join the

10:18

masses and by masses I mean like three people that

10:20

I knew who were doing this and do a 365

10:22

project and so I did I attempted to take one

10:24

self-portrait a day for a year I think with missing

10:27

days here and there I got to

10:29

220 something. I don't remember the exact

10:31

number, which felt like a success for

10:33

me because this is not something that

10:35

is my particular strong suit. But I

10:37

was really proud to do that

10:39

project and I really experimented. I

10:41

mean, I took. My photos you know in the

10:43

backyard. I remember I was one time I was

10:46

on my way to a friend's house to hang

10:48

out with some people and I was running late

10:50

and it was in the evening and I hadn't

10:52

taken my photo yet for the day So I

10:54

pulled the car out and like parked it in

10:56

the driveway with the headlights on and then I

10:59

like squatted down in front of one of the

11:01

headlights and made that like my back lighting and

11:03

I took a photo of me like literally squatting

11:05

on the ground with like exhaust from the car

11:07

like coming into photo and that was on my

11:09

photo so I was very experimental I did a

11:12

lot of like wrapping myself in Christmas lights

11:14

like just very like what can I do

11:16

how do I how do I do this

11:18

and so yeah ever since then I've gone

11:20

in and out of it but that was

11:22

really to start was just kind of doing

11:24

this thing with friends for fun like how

11:26

you know how many photos can I take

11:28

how can I make each one a little

11:30

bit different. did a 365 project, that's

11:33

the exact challenge I gave myself when

11:35

I bought my first DSLR back in

11:37

2011. I was like, man, what's the

11:39

best way to learn photography? It's to

11:41

take a lot of pictures in a

11:43

lot of different styles of a lot

11:46

of different subjects using a lot of

11:48

weird techniques and see what sticks and

11:50

see what you like, see what you

11:52

don't like, see what works, see what

11:54

doesn't work. So it's like a really

11:56

great way to discover yourself as a

11:59

photographer and learn. about what your preferences

12:01

are and kind of what techniques resonate

12:03

most with you and things like that.

12:05

It pushes your boundaries and obviously it's

12:08

not just something you can do as

12:10

a beginner until you can do it

12:12

as someone who's winning it for 20

12:14

years, right? You'll probably still get something

12:17

out of it. Yeah, I actually did

12:19

just finish just two days ago. My

12:21

most recent project, which was not a

12:23

365, which was not a 365, which

12:26

was not a 365, which was not

12:28

a 365, which was not a 365,

12:30

an adult, I have a job, you

12:33

know, I have TV to watch, I

12:35

don't know, I didn't want to take

12:37

a photo every single day of the

12:39

year, and I, you know, my style

12:42

has evolved and I know that I

12:44

don't always have access to the type

12:46

of landscapes where I like to shoot

12:48

and I didn't want to put that

12:51

pressure on myself, but I did do,

12:53

it was 30 photos every season for

12:55

a year, so I started with winter

12:57

last year and ended the fall this

13:00

fall. than 365, but I'm definitely still,

13:02

I mean, you know, 16 plus years

13:04

into this still really like projects and

13:06

pushing myself and challenging myself. So yes,

13:09

I agree. You mentioned just now that

13:11

you have landscapes that you have a

13:13

preference for putting yourself into as a

13:16

self-portrait photographer, maybe describe what those landscapes

13:18

look like. Gosh. I guess my first

13:20

instinct is to tell you to like

13:22

look at a map of any national

13:25

park and kind of just choose your

13:27

place because I'm not, I don't want

13:29

to say I'm not picky, I'm actually

13:31

quite picky when it comes to like

13:34

composition and all that, but just beautiful

13:36

places. So when I'm, if I'm low

13:38

on time and I'm just wanting to

13:40

take something or if I was doing

13:43

it for my project or if I

13:45

just want to like express some emotion,

13:47

something I'm going through, or a field

13:49

occasionally. Those are kind of the general

13:52

categories of places where I'll go to

13:54

shoot. If I'm really going for, you

13:56

know, if I'm traveling for the sake

13:59

of photography or if I'm really... wanting

14:01

to create something a little bit more

14:03

fantastical or magical sort of feeling, then

14:05

definitely not near National Park is one

14:08

of my favorite places in the whole

14:10

world. Any of the three in Washington,

14:12

North Cassades, Olympic, but really anywhere that

14:14

has mountains, that's sort of my. preference

14:17

for location is a mountainous sort of

14:19

area. So January of this year I

14:21

was in Bands in Canada, which was

14:23

just fantastic and I can't wait to

14:26

go back. Yeah, but anywhere that sort

14:28

of natural and vast is on the

14:30

table. That sounds amazing. Right at

14:32

my alley, mountains is my jam

14:34

too. So that's awesome. So why

14:36

self-portrait photography? What is it about

14:39

that particular style that you're so

14:41

drawn to? I think I'm most drawn

14:43

to self-portiture. because it's so

14:45

personal, because I always sound self-portiture to

14:47

be a kind of therapy. If I'm

14:50

going through a very strong negative or

14:52

positive emotion, I can go out and

14:54

create art from it. And I know

14:56

plenty of people do that in other

14:58

ways that do not involve using themselves

15:00

as a subject, but I don't know.

15:02

I mean, I grew up... a synchronized

15:04

summer as I said I did not

15:06

actually think that fact would become relevant

15:08

but here we are a dancer you

15:10

know I'm very into artistic sports that's

15:13

even now with an adult like I

15:15

still synchronize to them and I do

15:17

aerial hoop and I just do all this weird

15:19

stuff that makes me kind of use my body

15:21

as the art and you know in an athletic

15:23

way and it just feels so natural to

15:25

me to kind of let that bleed into

15:27

my photography I think I also like the

15:30

way that it looks. I think landscape photography

15:32

is beautiful and I'm looking at all your

15:34

photos behind you and I'm just really in

15:36

awe and thinking like when can I go

15:38

to those places and you know and I

15:40

would love to have any of those hanging on

15:42

my wall and my own art that I create I

15:45

think having myself in it adds I think

15:47

it just adds an element. I mean, even if it's just

15:49

an element of surprise, which I think is what it is

15:51

for a lot of people, they look at my work and

15:53

they say, oh, that would be a really pretty picture, even

15:55

without you in it. And I kind of want to challenge

15:57

them and say, yes, but what does it do for you?

16:00

with the human element? What does it do,

16:02

you know, to have this like beautiful but

16:04

also stark and hard and full of lines

16:06

landscape? You know, what does it do to

16:08

you to add somebody who can express with

16:10

like the shape of their hands or hair

16:12

moving in the wind or you know, whatever

16:14

it is. So I think it's partially that

16:17

it is personal. I think I've always been

16:19

somewhat of a rebel. I've always kind of

16:21

gone against the grain a little bit with

16:23

a lot of the ways that I like

16:25

to kind of challenge my viewers and challenge

16:27

the world to say, why not? You know,

16:29

why can't I create art that is valid

16:31

and worthy? It just happens to have me

16:34

in it as well. And then there's also,

16:36

you know, the sort of what do I

16:38

get out of it, aside from being able

16:40

to process emotions and things, I get to

16:42

be kind of vulnerable and practice expressing myself

16:44

in a way that is kind of unique,

16:46

both when you look at the finished work

16:48

of art, but also, you know. I do

16:51

prefer to be alone when I shoot to

16:53

be in places that are less populated, but

16:55

I can't always control that. And so it

16:57

is really vulnerable to be wearing a dress

16:59

in public and having my camera and being

17:01

alone and having people stare at me sometimes

17:03

open out and just kind of wonder what

17:05

on earth is she doing? Sometimes I wave,

17:07

which is great fun. I also get to

17:10

play around. I get to be silly. I

17:12

kind of do this thing that I have

17:14

been doing since I was a kid, so

17:16

I think it does seem... like a sort

17:18

of childlike thing, but that's kind of how

17:20

I am wanting to live my life is

17:22

to just have like child like joy that

17:24

I can continue even though I'm no longer

17:27

officially a child. Well that all sounds like

17:29

perfectly reasonable and all valid reasons why you

17:31

would want to do self-portraiture. Thank you. I

17:33

do that. What do you want your work

17:35

to say or accomplish? I think one way

17:37

that's coming to mind is for the viewer

17:39

at least I want anyone who views my

17:41

work to feel something. So you know I

17:44

certainly feel things when I take photos maybe

17:46

it's joy or awe or appreciation. they

17:48

just ask me this

17:50

actually. I just wrote

17:52

down a list of

17:54

things I feel. When

17:56

I take my photos

17:58

yesterday and I sometimes

18:01

feel sadness if that's

18:03

what I'm going through,

18:05

I sometimes feel vulnerability.

18:07

Like I said, I

18:09

feel a million different

18:11

things depending on a

18:13

million different things. And maybe the viewer

18:15

won't feel exactly what I felt when

18:17

I was taking it and that's okay.

18:19

I think it's just important that they

18:22

feel something. I think just

18:24

like any work of art that's

18:26

meant to evoke an emotion. I really

18:28

want viewers to say, wow, that stops

18:30

me my tracks or that is

18:32

really, really cool. That makes me feel

18:34

like I wanna go there or

18:36

I wanna just go on an adventure

18:38

or wow, what an

18:40

interesting pose. That looks

18:42

like something hard was going on. I want

18:44

it to bring up something for them. Maybe

18:46

it's like a memory or a sense of nostalgia

18:48

or anything calm, really anything. That's kind of

18:50

infinite, right? But yeah, I just want them to

18:52

look at it and say, wow, this is

18:54

a piece of art that really makes me think

18:57

and feel. I also think

18:59

it feels important to me to show

19:01

both viewers of my work and

19:03

myself that I can be authentic

19:05

and then I can sort of

19:07

do this thing that some

19:09

people think is really cool and some people

19:11

think is kind of weird and just like

19:13

a side hobby level of value and I

19:15

can maybe level it up a little bit

19:17

and I can do it and succeed and

19:19

I can be happy with it and I

19:21

can make other people happy or be my

19:23

authentic self and have that be freeing in

19:25

its own way. Yeah, I think we'll

19:27

touch on a little bit more of

19:29

that theme of authenticity. It's definitely something

19:31

that comes up on the show quite

19:33

a bit and I have some questions

19:35

later on that'll kind of maybe drill

19:38

a little bit further into what you

19:40

mean by that. But I wanted to

19:42

kind of get more into the technical

19:44

side for a minute in terms of

19:46

your techniques in the field. I'd be

19:48

curious to hear you talk a little

19:50

bit about what some of your secrets

19:52

are for capturing interesting self portraits in

19:54

the landscape and specifically I'm curious if

19:56

you can talk a little bit about

19:58

kind of your thought process around how

20:00

to. encapsulate the feeling that you're trying

20:02

to evoke through the image through

20:04

the use of different placements in

20:06

the composition or the clothing you're

20:08

wearing or your pose or where

20:10

you're at in the landscape things

20:13

of that nature. Okay first I will

20:15

start with the actual technical components

20:17

of shooting a self-portrait which I

20:19

think enough people shoot self-portrait these

20:22

days that much of this stuff

20:24

will not be too surprising but

20:26

for some people I do find

20:28

But it is surprising. So for everyone,

20:30

I of course use a tripod. When

20:33

I choose self-portraits, at least I plan

20:35

to. I have been known to on

20:37

occasion use other things in my vicinity

20:39

if I'm without a tripod, like the

20:41

floor, my camera bag, a chair, whatever

20:43

it is. But generally, I want a

20:45

tripod with me. That's right when I

20:47

camera. When it comes to actually taking

20:49

the photos, I prefer to use an

20:51

intervalometer. So my current camera has one

20:53

built in. So I can set it

20:55

to take a photo every two seconds

20:58

for. 60 photos or you know 90 photos or whatever it is

21:00

or unlimited until I feel satisfied I know that you know when

21:02

I first started I used a remote that I would like, you

21:04

had two seconds to put it away before the picture took, so

21:06

I would like click the remote and then be like, oh my

21:08

god, burn it! Sometimes I would drop it, like I ruined, I

21:10

ruined many remote in water or in snow or in whatever, because

21:12

I just like cannot figure it out in time. And then there

21:14

were also many photos when I first started where you could actually

21:16

see the remote in my hand, and I was like, eh, good

21:18

enough. So the remote didn't have a very good range, so I

21:20

don't have a very good range, so I don't have a very

21:22

good range. So the remote, so I don't have a very good

21:24

range, so I don't have a very good range, so I don't

21:27

have a very good range, so, so I don't have a very good

21:29

range, so, so I don't have a very good range, so, so, so I don't have

21:31

a very good range, so, so, so, so, so I don't have, so I

21:33

don't But apparently it's not that good.

21:35

So I've never actually tried that. As

21:37

far as focusing and framing the photo

21:39

and all that, if I have somebody

21:41

with me, which I don't usually, but sometimes

21:43

my husband can be dragged along forcefully,

21:45

just kidding. Sometimes he comes with me and

21:48

then I use him as sort of

21:50

a stand-in for where I would want me

21:52

to be, for the focus, for all

21:54

that. If not, I use a backpack

21:56

or a tree or a rock or whatever is

21:58

nearby, I always, always, Well, not always.

22:00

Okay, if it's summer, I don't, but so

22:02

that was a lot, but in the winter

22:04

and I do a lot of my shooting

22:07

in colder months, you know, I said I

22:09

was in Vance in January where we were

22:11

on frozen lakes and it was very, very

22:13

cold. I'm usually, you know, wearing a dress

22:15

and it looks like I'm very flowing and

22:17

graceful, which I am that part is real.

22:19

But I'm also usually wearing multiple pairs of

22:21

pants and socks and foot warmers and hiking

22:23

boots. And then I always have a jacket

22:25

and hand warmers ready for me to throw

22:27

on between sets so that I don't freeze

22:29

my face off. Yeah, so that is, those

22:31

are sort of my tools, I would say,

22:34

for actually taking the photo. As far as

22:36

sort of creative choices around clothing, framing, placement,

22:38

all that, I do choose my clothing somewhat

22:40

strategically, though I use the word somewhat there

22:42

intentionally because I don't always know exactly where

22:44

I'm going to be. So, you know, if

22:46

I'm going to my local park, if I'm

22:48

going to the beach, I know what it

22:50

looks like and I can choose what I

22:52

wear, you know, just based on my mood.

22:54

If I'm going somewhere new, which I like

22:56

to do, so a new hike or a

22:58

national park I've never been to or a

23:00

new country, know, places that I've never seen

23:03

before, I do like to bring a couple

23:05

of options if I can, stuff them in

23:07

my backpack and if I feel like carrying

23:09

them. But I, I kind of find myself

23:11

doing one of two things. One is I

23:13

want to be complimentary to the scenery. So,

23:15

you know, I'm going to be shooting during

23:17

blue hour. So all wear a red dress

23:19

and have that like really pop or same

23:21

with, you know, I do that a lot

23:23

in sort of a would be forest setting

23:25

where it'll be surrounded by green and I'm

23:27

wearing red because I think that's kind of

23:30

a cool contrast. And I just, my whole,

23:32

my whole life and my whole sort of

23:34

aesthetic like personally is, but okay, I'm wearing

23:36

black. So I'm not really demonstrating as well,

23:38

but I am a very vibrant person kind

23:40

of in personality and in what I like

23:42

to look at and all of that, you

23:44

know, all the art that I have, you

23:46

know, that I own hanging on my walls

23:48

is all really bright and like sunset and

23:50

they're pink and vibrant. I'm looking at the

23:52

photo behind you and saying, yes, that would

23:54

fit in really nicely. With

23:57

my, with my walls, so I really

23:59

like that look of like having a pop

24:01

of color. So I will

24:03

make that choice intentionally. The other thing

24:05

I do really intentionally, which lately I've

24:07

actually been finding myself doing more. And I

24:09

don't know, I guess some part of

24:12

me is really needing to blend in with

24:14

nature. But I find myself sometimes choosing

24:16

colors that are the same as my surroundings.

24:18

So one of my favorite photos that

24:20

I took this year, I was in a

24:22

woodsy sort of state park that I

24:24

visit frequently in Washington. And it was in

24:27

the spring, so everything was vibrant and

24:29

green and I have a green dress and

24:31

I put it on and then I

24:33

kind of posed like sleeping on the tree.

24:35

And it felt very peaceful to be

24:37

there and very just like I belonged, which is

24:39

funny because on the other side of the

24:41

camera were my in -laws who were really wanting

24:43

to see me take photos, so I had taken

24:45

them out for this excursion. So it was

24:48

a little bit chaotic and I was able to

24:50

find a small moment of peace. And it

24:52

ended up being one of my favorites because I

24:54

just really like how it is vibrant and also

24:56

how I blended And I think everything just

24:58

kind of worked. So I ended up doing that

25:00

quite a bit too. I did it with, there's

25:03

a yellow dress I have that I

25:05

took, you live in Colorado,

25:07

do you have larches for you

25:09

or? Aspen's, which are better.

25:13

Ouch, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No,

25:15

it's funny because my buddy Michael Bolina who

25:17

lives in Portland, he's like, bro, you gotta

25:19

come up and photograph the larches and I'm

25:21

like, but I've got the Aspen's, man.

25:23

So we're always joking about it. Well,

25:26

larches are the best, T -March. I'm

25:28

with your friend who, yes, I agree.

25:30

They are pretty amazing, I agree. They're really

25:32

cool. They're really cool. And I actually, after five

25:34

years of living in Seattle, I finally got

25:36

to glimpse them with my own eyes this year.

25:38

And I had this whole plan in my

25:40

mind. So I did wear my yellow dress and

25:42

I was farther away from the camera than

25:44

I usually am. And I just straight up like

25:46

blend in to the larches. I actually was

25:48

showing this photo to somebody recently and he said,

25:51

where are you in the photo? And it

25:53

was on a phone screen. It was very small

25:55

and hard to see. But that, it does

25:57

bring me a both a sense of peace

25:59

and kind of a sense of

26:01

both. longing almost to dress like that to choose a tire

26:03

that matches my surroundings and also

26:05

interestingly I'm thinking of a more

26:08

recent photo I took where I

26:10

was in water and it was

26:12

sunrise and I you know the

26:14

photo is me in water and

26:16

then the water is reflecting the

26:18

sunrise you can't even see the

26:20

sky or anything around it and

26:22

I ended up actually wearing like

26:25

a body suit that was kind of

26:27

light tones like it almost could have blended

26:29

in with my skin and so that was

26:31

kind of blending in a different way and

26:33

I've actually I know I remember feel like

26:35

very vulnerable during the shoot because I'm wearing

26:37

like essentially a bathing suit and it's cold

26:40

and it's 40 degrees and I'm like inside

26:42

the water cold and I don't know it

26:44

just feels kind of freeing to do things

26:46

like that to do things where I'm kind

26:48

of just the one with nature I kind of

26:50

joke sometimes that I want to be one with

26:52

nature and it's not actually a joke I

26:54

think You know, nature is just so beautiful that

26:57

why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I want to

26:59

be a part of it? Okay, so if

27:01

you're talking about composition, so I

27:03

am not a trained landscape photographer.

27:05

I respect landscape photographers, and I

27:08

mean, like I said, I think

27:10

landscape photography is beautiful, but I

27:12

don't consider myself to be someone who

27:14

takes photos with the eye of a

27:16

landscape photographer. I think I have sort

27:19

of this blend of landscape and portrait

27:21

and something unique that maybe I've made

27:23

up. I'm not really sure. Composing

27:25

a photo, I do want the photo to look

27:27

good, you know, overall, full stop. But I

27:29

am thinking about where am I going to be.

27:32

So I might frame a photo with a rock,

27:34

let's say like a boulder or something, or a

27:36

tree, where you might not necessarily think to put

27:38

that tree, because I know that I'm going to

27:40

go lean on it or sit on it, or

27:43

I'm going to interact with it in some way.

27:45

I'm going to add a piece that's not

27:47

there in the landscape. Where am I?

27:49

I'm thinking about what might kind of

27:51

take the viewer by surprise almost. Yeah,

27:54

I'm kind of thinking about how do

27:56

I be unique here? How do I

27:58

not just, you know, take another... photo

28:00

of a really pretty tree that's been

28:02

shot like a hundred times. How do

28:05

I do it in a way that

28:07

does add sort of a special element?

28:09

I wish there was some more insight.

28:11

I could, you know, I could add

28:14

there, but it is, I mean, it's

28:16

a lot of intuition. It's a lot

28:18

of just, yes, I took the classes,

28:21

yes, I understand, you know, the rules

28:23

about composing photographs, and I would say

28:25

that it really is just, what am

28:27

I... feeling like what do I think

28:30

is gonna be an intriguing photo and

28:32

I do I mean I there's a

28:34

lot of trial and error at least

28:36

for me I'm a little bit impulsive

28:38

well I am impulsive but in

28:40

this case I would say I'm you know

28:43

intuitive to the point of like wow I

28:45

thought that was going to the point of

28:47

like wow I thought that was going

28:49

to look really good and

28:51

like sometimes it's fantastic and

28:53

sometimes I'm like a self-portrait

28:55

photographer is that You never know what

28:57

it's going to look like until after you've already spent

29:00

the time setting up and getting dressed and going out

29:02

and posing. And then you come back and you're like,

29:04

oh my God, it's terrible. That's a part of the

29:06

fun, honestly. Just the experimentation. And I get to be

29:08

out there longer doing what I love. So that's fantastic.

29:11

As far as posing, there's a lot you can do

29:13

with posing in cell portraiture. There's... Also

29:15

a little you can do like you

29:17

can kind of be as simple or

29:19

as complex as you watch so I

29:21

really love if I or another cell

29:23

portrait photographer like uses hands or uses

29:25

you know hair or uses the dress

29:27

or uses like any sort of like small

29:29

a small ways to express yourself. So I

29:32

do often find myself using my fingers

29:34

a lot, my hands, and I'm like

29:36

doing it right now, like what's happening.

29:38

Somebody once actually, I sent a Snapchat

29:40

of one of my photos to a

29:42

friend and he responded with, what do

29:44

you do with your hands? You take

29:46

self fortress. And I was like, what

29:48

a good question. I actually thought about

29:50

it. So since that I have tried

29:52

to pay more attention to what I

29:54

do with my hands, I, you know,

29:56

sometimes they're more like open. like that

29:58

I might know how. like palms up

30:00

if I'm trying to arrest like a sadness

30:03

or a frustration or something it might be

30:05

like a more closed pose more like hands

30:07

down this is also like not a hard

30:09

and fast rule I've taken many like palm

30:12

down photo that I think is meant to

30:14

be more open so it really depends I

30:16

love interacting with my surroundings so again if

30:19

there's a tree if there's wind I love

30:21

wind in photos I know a lot of

30:23

people you know see wind and they're like

30:25

oh I'm sitting inside and I'm like let's

30:28

a camera we're leaving So yes, I love

30:30

any sort of like weather like wind

30:32

or fog, you know, rain is annoying,

30:34

but also does cool things for photos.

30:37

So yeah, any sort of like interesting,

30:39

basically anything but a sunny day

30:41

I'm all about. Yeah, and I

30:43

really just like to interact with

30:45

what's around me and I mean,

30:47

I don't plan my poses or

30:49

anything. It's very in the moment.

30:51

Just kind of what am I feeling and

30:53

when I go out and I'm in front

30:55

of the camera, what do I see? What

30:57

do they bring up for me? I

31:00

just kind of pose accordingly. Yeah. Yeah.

31:02

Well, I wanted to take

31:04

a quick pause from the

31:07

episode to let you know

31:09

that it's that time of

31:11

year again. The Natural Landscape

31:13

Photography Awards are right around

31:15

the corner. Mark your calendars

31:17

because entries open on April

31:19

15th and close on May

31:22

31st. This competition was created

31:24

by me and a few

31:26

fellow photographers to celebrate landscape

31:28

photography in its purest form.

31:30

Whether you're a digital photographer

31:32

or a lover of film, this

31:35

is your chance to showcase your

31:37

skill, creativity, and fieldcraft while

31:39

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31:42

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31:44

cherish. With over $25,000 in prizes,

31:46

including 16,500 in cash, international

31:49

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31:51

your work published in a stunning

31:53

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31:56

is the real deal. And

31:58

here's the best part. If you

32:00

make it to the finals,

32:02

you'll receive a copy of

32:04

the book for free. We're

32:07

looking for photographs that tell

32:09

a story, connect us to

32:11

the natural world, and reflect

32:13

the incredible moments that you've

32:15

captured without relying on heavy

32:17

editing or AI-generated techniques. So,

32:19

if you're ready to elevate

32:21

your photography and join a

32:24

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32:26

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32:28

the details. Again, that's Natural

32:30

Landscape Awards.com. Let's make this

32:32

year's competition. One to remember.

32:34

Okay, let's get back to

32:37

the show. This might seem

32:39

like a fairly obvious question,

32:41

but I promise... Well, we'll

32:43

see. With self portraits in

32:46

the landscape, do you see

32:48

yourself as the main subject?

32:50

Or are you a complementary

32:53

subject to the landscape or

32:55

vice versa? Or is a

32:57

little bit of both? Yeah, that's

33:00

such a good question. It

33:02

feels like I caught that almost

33:04

to say a little bit of

33:06

both, but the answer is truly

33:09

neither. I don't see myself as

33:11

the main subject, but I also

33:13

don't see the landscape as

33:15

the main subject. I kind

33:18

of, as cheesy and like

33:20

hippie-ish as the sounds, but

33:22

I live in Seattle, so you

33:24

know, you gotta get this to me.

33:26

I do kind of see myself

33:28

as just fitting in. and just existing

33:31

within sort of everything. So I think

33:33

you can't have one without the other.

33:35

For me, my work would not feel the

33:37

same if I took it without me and it wouldn't

33:40

feel the same if I did the same pose

33:42

in the same outfit in front of a white

33:44

wall. You know, I feel like you do need

33:46

them both. It's a little bit of a trick

33:48

question because I was in a

33:51

little bit of an argument with

33:53

two of our co-founders of like

33:55

the competition I created natural landscape

33:57

photography awards and we were talking

33:59

about. photos that have human element or

34:01

man-made objects in the photo and we're

34:03

trying to kind of come to some

34:06

agreement of like what should be allowed,

34:08

which shouldn't be allowed and like we

34:10

kept coming back to this idea of

34:12

like what's the main subject of the

34:14

photograph and I kept pushing back saying

34:16

in an ideal world it's neither it's like

34:18

it's the interaction of the two subjects

34:20

and the idea that they're trying to

34:23

express together is the main subject to

34:25

the photo so like if you're I'm

34:27

just going to use an example, like

34:29

if you're in a dress and you're

34:31

in an awesome forest and you're wearing

34:33

it and you're posed in a certain

34:36

way that's conveying an idea or expressing

34:38

a thought or an emotion, like that

34:40

expression of an idea or emotion is

34:43

the subject, not you, not the forest of

34:45

a tree, right? Yeah. Which I think for

34:47

some people that's like, wait, what? But no,

34:49

I love that. I wish you could like

34:51

shout that from the rooftops. I want

34:53

everyone to hear that, because yes, because

34:55

yes, I agree. It's a hard thing to

34:58

do, right? Like, I know lots of people

35:00

try and fail to convey that type of

35:02

a subject through a photograph, so it's

35:04

not easy, right? It's not easy, and

35:06

I will say, I mean, I just told you,

35:09

or I told you a while ago that I

35:11

spent this year taking 120 photos that

35:13

I shared them all, I mean, I

35:15

started them on Instagram. for accountability, not

35:17

because I, you know, it was just

35:19

a project for myself. And I'm sure

35:21

you know, this is a photographer too,

35:23

that you might take 200 photos and

35:26

like maybe 10 of them are portfolio

35:28

worthy, you know. And so it is

35:30

hard to convey that and with everyone

35:32

I get more practice and there's also

35:34

just some days it's my day and some

35:36

days it's not and that doesn't mean it's

35:38

not a good photo. It just means, you

35:40

know, it may not have the impact that

35:42

a different one had, but it's rare. I

35:45

take this year at least I took a

35:47

pretty high volume of photos and some of

35:49

them do have that effect I think. Many

35:51

of them are just pretty pictures that, you know,

35:53

gave me the practice, gave me the expression,

35:55

the outlet, all of that and it doesn't

35:58

mean again they're not worthy of. being

36:00

shared, but yes, that's just to emphasize that

36:02

I totally agree. It is very, very hard

36:04

to achieve that. And not to make it

36:06

more complicated, but another layer on top of

36:08

this is the fact that you could take

36:10

a photograph that you're trying. You're like, oh,

36:12

I'm hope, I wish it was expressing this,

36:14

but I don't think it works the way

36:16

I was attending it to work. And then

36:19

you share it, you show it online and

36:21

10 different people who are going to have

36:23

10 different reactions and one of them might

36:25

be like wow it really strongly conveys this

36:27

emotion this idea and as the creator you're

36:29

like I didn't see that but that's really

36:31

cool that you see that right so and

36:33

it's really hard to remember that that can

36:35

happen and I don't think it makes sense

36:37

to like think about it too much but

36:39

I think it makes sense in terms of

36:41

like not being too critical of our work

36:43

in some ways because sometimes what maybe like

36:45

maybe it's a good idea that you were

36:48

instinctively drawn to and you executed it well

36:50

and maybe you didn't feel like it checked

36:52

the boxes of what you thought it was

36:54

supposed to be but an audience is out

36:56

there that might think otherwise and I think

36:58

that's an interesting dynamic. It is really interesting

37:00

and again not that sharing a photo on

37:02

social media is the end all be all

37:04

of photography in fact it is definitely not

37:06

but I am sometimes surprised by people's reactions

37:08

to photos that I just kind of thought

37:10

well I committed to this project, so I'm

37:12

going to share number 13 out of 30.

37:14

It's not my favorite, but here it is,

37:16

and people are like blown away by it.

37:19

And I think, what am I, you know,

37:21

what am I missing? What, what is it

37:23

about this photo that's hitting other people? Do

37:25

I have like eyes that are not working,

37:27

right? I don't totally know. I notice it

37:29

also, specifically, I like to, you know, like,

37:31

interact with people on social media. because or

37:33

else it's just like a whole where everything

37:35

goes to die so sometimes if I am

37:37

posting one of those photos where I kind

37:39

of was like yeah I like it it's

37:41

it's it's fine I'm proud of it you

37:43

know I'm gonna share it if I have

37:45

an alternate Like either I

37:48

swapped out my dress

37:50

or I did a

37:52

different pose or something

37:54

else changed about it

37:56

I will post on

37:58

my stories, you know,

38:00

the two photos next

38:02

to each other and

38:04

kind of put a

38:06

poll like which one

38:08

do you like better?

38:11

80 % of the time That's

38:13

an estimate, but a lot of the time

38:15

people like the one that I didn't post I

38:19

guess my eye is a lot different

38:21

than other people. I mean it's one of

38:23

those things where especially with self portraiture

38:25

because I'm in it It's hard

38:27

for me I think to separate my experience

38:29

of the photo from the experience of viewing

38:31

the photo So I might see a picture

38:33

and remember that I was like really really

38:35

cold during that one or that I was

38:38

kind of frustrated Because the light was changing

38:40

rapidly or something like that and someone else

38:42

is it and they don't have any of

38:44

that So they say oh, I love this

38:46

this I just like it better and it's

38:48

you know interesting exercise in letting

38:50

go of my own expectations And just realizing

38:52

that you know this is it is

38:54

springy, but it also is for for everyone

38:56

for anyone who wants to see it Yeah,

38:59

I just know that just now hit me in

39:01

terms of like I think it's targets.

39:03

We were all we all have like a You

39:07

know a connection to our work that might

39:09

not be real in terms of like Yeah I

39:11

really love this photo because of the memory

39:13

that went into it or the effort that I

39:15

had to go in order to capture Whatever,

39:17

but in your case with self portraiture, there's an

39:19

added element of like I don't

39:21

like the way I look in that photo

39:23

or man that dress makes me look X

39:25

Y Z or Man, I wish I was

39:27

looking this direction and after that direction because

39:29

you know because it because I'm looking this

39:31

way It makes my chin look bigger or

39:33

whatever something That

39:36

is one of the things that

39:38

my diet itself So I

39:40

hear you and but I'm just saying

39:42

like that that's a whole other element that

39:44

I just now just It just hit me

39:46

and to be clear I'm not immune to body image

39:48

issues just because I do it for part of my

39:50

job I mean, I certainly look at photos and think

39:52

huh, I didn't think I looked

39:54

like that in the mirror But apparently I do right

39:56

well, especially you know

39:59

self portraiture probably at

40:01

different angles that you're not used

40:03

to seeing yourself and so yeah

40:05

no that's that's really interesting so maybe

40:07

this is a good segue for us

40:10

to talk a little bit about kind

40:12

of the the ups and downs that

40:14

you've had in your self-portrait photography journey

40:17

and my understanding is that some of

40:19

those ups and downs in your personal

40:21

life maybe you could talk a little

40:23

bit about a little bit about how

40:26

those two are interconnected for you. Yeah,

40:28

yeah, that's a really good and a

40:30

really insightful question. Because it's not

40:32

something that, you know, I share, not like

40:34

I'm not sharing openly, I am sharing

40:36

things that are real and authentic, but there

40:38

are certain things, you know, that I'm not

40:41

sharing like, this is the exact issue I

40:43

was having with my body at this exact

40:45

moment, and here's how it impacted me, or

40:47

like, here's a really terrible thing that happened

40:50

in my life, right? I think some of

40:52

that I think we need to share.

40:54

express emotion and let other people

40:56

know it's okay to be an emotional

40:58

human and to go through hardship but

41:01

there are certainly just things that we

41:03

all I think you know want to

41:05

share with our journals or our close

41:07

friends or our spouses or whatever it

41:09

is and so there are some things

41:12

that I kind of do leave up

41:14

to the interpretation of the

41:16

viewer you know I'm not always very clear

41:18

this is the the hard thing that I

41:21

was processing while I was taking

41:23

this photo and decide for themselves what

41:25

it means to them because if that's not to

41:27

me to decide what you know what my work

41:29

means to someone else. But I will say that

41:31

kind of counterintuitive a little bit that

41:33

photography especially self-fortiture has always been this

41:36

emotional outlet for me in this place

41:38

where I can go and I mean

41:40

a physical place but also a place

41:42

in my mind like a mindset that

41:44

I can access where I'm kind of I

41:46

get into a flow state, which as somebody

41:48

with ADHD is very, very hard for

41:51

me to access a lot of the

41:53

time. And photography is one of the

41:55

more consistent ways that I found where I

41:57

kind of am separate from time a little

41:59

bit. I mean, both because I'm like taking

42:01

off my watch and I'm putting my phone

42:04

away, I don't know what time it is,

42:06

but also I don't feel the need to

42:08

know. I'm so connected with what I'm doing.

42:11

And so it is in that way just

42:13

a really important way to move through things.

42:15

And so it's gotten me through just things

42:17

really sucking sometimes as life sometimes does. You

42:20

know, I remember I, I remember in high

42:22

school doing that for the first time. I

42:24

was during my 365 project and I was

42:27

having a really hard day. I don't even

42:29

know why. I think it was because I

42:31

was a teenager and everything just felt really

42:33

hard and impossible even though it wasn't. Things

42:36

were probably fine, but in my mind they

42:38

were not fine. And I went out to

42:40

one of my usual sort of widsier spots.

42:42

And this is also kind of funny to

42:45

look back at these photos because I didn't

42:47

dress in any particular way when I first

42:49

started. So there were photos of me wearing

42:52

like t-shirts with like t-shirts with like words

42:54

on them. wouldn't wear now because I think

42:56

they you know they take away from the

42:58

art a little bit but in this photo

43:01

I think I was wearing like a waffle

43:03

shirt that had stars on it or something

43:05

so not really in keeping with the emotion

43:07

I was feeling but I went into the

43:10

woods and I took this photo where like

43:12

my fists were bald up and I was

43:14

moving really fast and so my hair was

43:17

like just like flung like you know across

43:19

the frame and I think I was like

43:21

had my head down and I just remember

43:23

I can actually recall that feeling now being

43:26

so angry and just wanting to like punch

43:28

the air which is essentially what I did

43:30

in this photo and gosh now I'm gonna

43:32

have to share the photo with you and

43:35

you're gonna look at it and be like

43:37

what I say I will say disclaimer for

43:39

anyone watching this my editing style has changed

43:42

thankfully and so I you know remember in

43:44

those days doing it really really intentionally like

43:46

I'm going to go get this out of

43:48

my system. I have some other tools for

43:51

doing that now, so I occasionally do that,

43:53

but I would also might go for a

43:55

walk or I might call a friend. You

43:58

know, I would say that my number of

44:00

tools for that has diversified, but in that

44:02

way, cell portraiture has gotten me through. Some

44:04

really hard times where you know the photo

44:07

that I take might not mean anything to

44:09

anyone else Especially like a photo with my

44:11

fist bald and my hair and everyone's face

44:13

like That's not a photo that you want

44:16

to hang on your wall But for me

44:18

that was really personal and really valuable and

44:20

I really got to do something that if

44:23

I were to like go to the grocery

44:25

store and start like like banging my head

44:27

around people would be like what is she

44:29

doing? But I'm in the woods alone and

44:32

I can do it in it safe and

44:34

it's a good space for me to let

44:36

that out. Yeah, that's kind of a way

44:38

that I've used it really intentionally to work

44:41

through emotions. Interestingly, as I've gotten older, so

44:43

you know, a little bit in college, after

44:45

college, I was really focused on, you know,

44:48

being a 20-something year old and living my

44:50

life and like not wanting to, I don't

44:52

know. do anything wrong, sort of. So like

44:54

in college, I was really into my social

44:57

life. And I'm just like, you know, being

44:59

a college student. So I kind of wasn't

45:01

as active with my photography after college. I

45:03

had a job and I was really into

45:06

having a job and I was really into

45:08

having a job and it was really time-consuming.

45:10

So I was really time-consuming. So I also

45:13

wasn't very active then. And looking back, I

45:15

mean, I did do a little bit, but...

45:17

It was nowhere near as consistent as I've

45:19

been recently. It is interesting to zoom out

45:22

from my life a little bit and see,

45:24

you know, here are the holes and when

45:26

I was less active with myself portraiture and

45:28

here is what that maybe could have given

45:31

me had I been doing it. You know,

45:33

so I don't know, I think lately the

45:35

past year or two years, I've been much

45:38

more consistent with it and I do think

45:40

that it's made a difference. I think I've

45:42

been able to. So we're getting really deep

45:44

now. But I've been able to find sort

45:47

of a sense of self-acceptance that I've been

45:49

on a journey to find for a long

45:51

time and it's been, you know, slowly coming.

45:54

But I think taking the step to be

45:56

more active with my photography has been sort

45:58

of the thing, the thing that was kind

46:00

of missing, I think. before because it's so

46:03

so authentic to me it is just like

46:05

the thing that the thing that my soul

46:07

wants to do you can see me like

46:09

laughing at myself for saying those words even

46:12

and maybe it's not the thing you hear

46:14

a lot at the landscape charter for you're

46:16

not sharing people say like yeah it's really

46:19

like what my soul wants to do oh

46:21

no it's headed true you are oh yeah

46:23

we hear that stuff all the time okay

46:25

amazing I love it yeah but I think

46:28

it's just so it's like necessary for me

46:30

it's like a thing that you know I'm

46:32

kind of on a mission to make this

46:34

a more central part of my career and

46:37

to do something more with it and to

46:39

serve more people in different ways with it

46:41

but even if I never do any of

46:44

that it's still something that I need just

46:46

it's there's kind of no way around it

46:48

that it's a thing that my body needs

46:50

to do. I'd be curious to hear you

46:53

talk a little bit about how your mental

46:55

state or your emotional state impacts your desire

46:57

and or ability to execute on some of

46:59

your self-portrait work because I found that in

47:02

landscape photography there's a lot of photographers who

47:04

create some of their best and most prolific

47:06

work when they're going through more challenging times

47:09

and it sounds like you've used self-portiture as

47:11

kind of a tool to get through some

47:13

of that but I'd be curious to where

47:15

you talk about like when things are going

47:18

really good is it still easy to connect

47:20

that way? Yeah, that's a really good question.

47:22

It depends. And I would say that sometimes

47:25

going through a very hard or a very

47:27

positive situation in life, a span, you know,

47:29

it can span days or weeks or months.

47:31

You know, it's not like something bad happens

47:34

one day and you're like, well, I want

47:36

to take photos and now I feel so

47:38

much better. Sometimes, you know, if it's like...

47:40

this one thing was like really big on

47:43

me but for a lot of things it's

47:45

like life is hard and things are really

47:47

heavy and you know people die and just

47:50

things get really messy and so that does

47:52

take a while to move through and if

47:54

I'm moving through something big good or bad

47:56

you know it could take a while and

47:59

every time I take cell portraits during that

48:01

period of moving through, it's different. It's not

48:03

like I take 10 cell portraits and each

48:05

one is like, well, I healed, like this

48:08

piece of it, and now this piece of

48:10

it. It's very organic, as human emotions

48:12

are. And so in that way, it's

48:15

a little bit unpredictable, sort of how

48:17

the emotion I'm feeling is going to

48:19

impact my shoot. As far as going through something,

48:21

you know, times are good if I'm like on

48:23

top of the world. I don't know, I got

48:26

married last year and that was amazing. We love

48:28

being married. But, you know, that was a time

48:30

of my life where I was like, wow, life

48:32

is fantastic. People are sending us gifts and they're

48:34

calling us newlyweds and I still was taking a

48:36

lot of self-pertures during that time. I actually, a

48:38

couple months after we got married, is when we

48:41

were in Canada and that was a trip that

48:43

was not exclusively for photography for photography, but it

48:45

was a big. I mean, you can ask my

48:47

then two-month husband what he thought of

48:49

before I am wake up calling to

48:51

drive across BAM to take the photos,

48:53

but I have been able to kind

48:55

of channel my, what is it, I

48:58

mean, it changes, right? It could

49:00

be my love of the art, it could

49:02

be my excitement for where I am,

49:04

you know, especially if I'm in a

49:06

new place like that that's so beautiful,

49:08

it could be this year I actually,

49:10

for most of the year, and kind

49:12

of still I... I felt this really

49:14

deep determination to, you know,

49:16

make it, if you will, with my

49:19

art, with my photography, I just

49:21

felt this drive, really, I felt

49:23

it before, but this is like

49:25

on another level, like I don't know,

49:27

I don't know, but that in its

49:29

own way drives me. It's, you know,

49:32

it's not a negative emotion, and it's

49:34

not a positive emotion. It's just

49:36

sort of this desired, it's like

49:39

burning sort of thing that won't go

49:41

away. there with me and it is

49:43

giving me that sort of motivation that I

49:45

am maybe and not always getting from a

49:47

hard time or from a difficult thing I'm

49:49

working through. And you know sometimes that is

49:51

kind of what I want to convey in my

49:53

photos. I don't, you know, I don't always want

49:56

to be conveying the negative emotions. So

49:58

sometimes when I'm kind of writing those

50:00

highs, I'm like, great, I'm gonna just

50:02

be joyful and I'm gonna see how

50:05

I can express that joy in this

50:07

photo and can it still be as

50:09

good as one where I'm like really

50:11

having a hard time. And I've kind

50:13

of found that the answer is yes,

50:16

but it's fun. I mean it's maybe

50:18

more fun. It's not maybe as soul

50:20

nourishing. It's not as like, oh I

50:22

really needed that. It's not as therapeutic

50:25

therapeutic in that way, but it is

50:27

just a lot of fun to create

50:29

fun to create when I'm just really

50:31

loving it. I love that you said

50:34

that because I think in especially in

50:36

landscape photography there's kind of this negative

50:38

stigma in the arts world around while

50:40

you're doing is out there you're just

50:42

taking pictures of beauty right and it's

50:45

like what's wrong with beauty right like

50:47

beauty is pretty awesome like it's very

50:49

yeah it has all these positive benefits

50:51

on your emotional state like there's been

50:54

scientific studies that have proven like if

50:56

you spend time looking at a beautiful

50:58

photograph, your blood pressure goes down like

51:00

It actually is a very beneficial part

51:02

of the human experience to appreciate beauty

51:05

and capture beauty and experience beauty. So

51:07

like, I just love you said that,

51:09

you know, sometimes if I'm trying to

51:11

convey joy and happiness, like that can

51:14

be equally beneficial as expressing other emotions

51:16

that maybe are more associated with art.

51:18

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah,

51:20

thank you for saying that. We are

51:22

on the same wavelength here, because I

51:25

definitely think there's absolutely nothing wrong and

51:27

many things right with just appreciating beauty

51:29

for beauty's sake, and it's something that

51:31

I think enough people don't do enough.

51:34

One of the reasons why I never

51:36

want to move out of the state

51:38

of Washington, who knows what's going to

51:40

happen, but people, because I'm nearly married,

51:42

people ask my husband and I that

51:45

all the time, because neither of us

51:47

are from here. We're from here. Show

51:49

me a mountain in Maryland and I

51:51

will move there Yeah, there's a reason

51:54

why people move to the West Coast

51:56

Yes, absolutely Yeah, well, I'd love to

51:58

hear you talk a little about how

52:00

your work is a dietitian intersex with

52:03

your photography and the journey that you're

52:05

kind of embarking on now? Yeah, so as

52:07

I explained in a beginning, I'm an

52:09

anti dietitian. So, you know, that has

52:11

sort of a range of meanings. I do

52:14

a range of things in my

52:16

work. You know, I counsel people

52:18

one-on-one on, again, body image, disordered

52:20

eating, relationship with food,

52:22

eating disorders, all of those

52:24

things that are kind of

52:26

intertwined. They're very intertwined. I see over

52:29

time people saying, you know, I used to

52:31

hate my body, my body has not

52:33

changed, it is the same size, and now

52:35

I'm able to accept it, if not

52:37

love it. And that's a really beautiful thing

52:39

to see. Something that often comes up along

52:42

the way, a lot. I mean, a

52:44

lot, over half my clients, maybe all my

52:46

clients, at some point or another, maybe

52:48

in one session, maybe we spent five sessions

52:50

talking talking about it, they say

52:52

something like... I was having a really great

52:54

day, I was feeling cute, I had on a nice

52:56

outfit, I was like really feeling myself, and then I,

52:59

you know, I went out and I posed for photos

53:01

with some friends and I saw the photos and

53:03

then my day like totally took a turn and

53:05

I hate everything, right? Like I didn't like the

53:07

way I lived in photos, and that's a huge

53:10

trigger for a lot of people. So, and that's

53:12

something that, you know, I'm not immune to that

53:14

again, like this is my job, like, like, like,

53:16

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

53:18

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

53:20

Certainly I hear society's messaging

53:22

just as much as anyone

53:24

else does. And so I've also have

53:26

struggled with that kind of thing.

53:28

And I've also seen photos of

53:30

myself and said, ooh, that's what

53:32

I look like. And it's not

53:35

always in my self-portrait. I mean,

53:37

you know, you can talk about

53:39

like being in college and going

53:41

out socially and like seeing a

53:43

photo and thinking, oh, I look so cute.

53:45

And it's one of the ways that

53:47

self-portiture. has helped me heal my own

53:49

body image. I mean, albeit it's a

53:51

very unique way and it's not something

53:53

that's really advertised as like a body

53:55

image healing device, but it is something

53:57

that, you know, that I've experienced and

53:59

that I would like other people to

54:01

experience. I think, and you don't have

54:03

to be a professional photographer, you don't

54:05

have to own a DSM or any

54:07

of the fancy stuff to do it,

54:09

you can have an iPhone and a

54:11

friend who can be your human tripod,

54:13

right? It does not have to be

54:15

to the level that, you know, that

54:17

I or that other people take it

54:19

to. But it's something that, because of

54:21

my own experience, you know, as a

54:23

photographer, as a dietitician, it's starting to.

54:26

to feel more and more important to

54:28

me that I blend sort of my

54:30

two expertise, I guess, that I help

54:32

people who are, you know, I do

54:34

work with people one-on-one who some of

54:36

them are artists, they are creatives, they

54:38

really like self-expression in that way, and

54:40

I've even had discussions with certain clients

54:42

about this about whatever their form of

54:44

art is, like, can you paint a

54:46

cell portrait of your body, can you

54:48

paint the part of your body that...

54:50

that gives you the most sort of

54:52

pause when you look at it. Can

54:54

you turn your body into art? And

54:56

that's exactly what I do. And so

54:58

I just think there's so much value

55:00

in this and it's, it's, so portrait

55:02

photography is such a unique art form

55:04

that it's not something that occurs to

55:06

a lot of people as a tool.

55:08

It's not, it's not obvious. No, it

55:10

is definitely not obvious. And I mean,

55:12

because I tell people I do it

55:14

and they're like, you what? What do

55:17

you mean? You're a what? Are you

55:19

just like taking, people think I'm taking

55:21

selfies, like self-right, right? I'm definitely not

55:23

taking selfies. And I think the act

55:25

of creating a self-portrait, it's not just

55:27

about the body, it's not just about

55:29

how do I look. It's about learning

55:31

the technique, learning how to compose a

55:33

photo, learning how to meter your camera,

55:35

and that's something you're new to. It's

55:37

about the technical stuff as much as

55:39

it is about the creative part. For

55:41

me, at least getting into that state

55:43

of total focus and just wanting my

55:45

photo to turn out the way I

55:47

want or turn out anyway, right? Just

55:49

wanting to take something beautiful, that's healing

55:51

too. You know, kind of like what

55:53

you were saying about being in nature,

55:55

because I mean, not all self-for-gyptographers take

55:57

photos in nature. but you know that

55:59

there's a lot of science around the

56:01

idea that spending time in nature is

56:03

so good for your mental health and

56:05

your your body image is related to

56:08

that mental health and so it's kind

56:10

of you get two benefits right you

56:12

get the benefit of being in nature and

56:14

being able to breathe deeply and have it

56:16

not smell like exhaust and you know see

56:18

really cool things around you and you also

56:20

get the benefit of kind of doing an

56:22

exposure, like exposing yourself to this thing

56:25

that maybe you fear or is so

56:27

uncomfortable for you. And I think there's

56:29

maybe some benefit in pairing those two

56:32

things and showing yourself, you know, I can

56:34

make art that is beautiful, even if

56:36

I don't always think I'm beautiful. And

56:38

there's a third thing, right? I mean,

56:40

I know you've mentioned like people being

56:42

okay with their body image and I'm all

56:45

for that. And when you're out in

56:47

nature as a photographer, usually, that

56:49

requires you to do a little

56:51

bit of physical effort and a

56:53

little exercise which no matter what

56:55

your body size is there's immeasurable

56:58

science supporting the fact that exercise

57:00

is in one of the best

57:02

things you can do for yourself

57:04

long term for health reasons so

57:06

you know like you have three

57:08

benefits yes yes definitely thank you for

57:11

bringing that up I yeah that's so

57:13

true and you know as long as

57:15

it's accessible to you I know Sure. Terraines

57:17

are not accessible to all people,

57:19

but you know, you don't have to

57:21

do a ridiculously high grade hike to

57:23

get to really beautiful places. There are

57:26

places where you just walk a mile

57:28

or you just walk 10 steps. If

57:30

that's a successful right, any amount of

57:32

movement is so good for mental and

57:35

physical health. So yes, you got that right.

57:37

I don't know why I did that.

57:39

You're good. So let's talk a little

57:41

bit about. the workshops that you're planning

57:43

on hosting. I think you've mentioned to

57:45

me that you're working on a workshop

57:47

concept where you're able to use self-porture

57:49

photography and your knowledge as a dietitian

57:52

to help others and I'd love to

57:54

hear you talk a little about what

57:56

that's going to look like. Yes, okay,

57:58

thank you for asking about this. excited

58:00

to talk about this. So it is

58:02

one of my longer term goals as

58:04

a photographer and in this case as

58:06

a dietitian to lead workshops and retreats.

58:08

I mean I have like really ideal

58:10

dream of a goal would be to

58:12

do this you know like a week-long

58:14

retreat in another country. Some are beautiful

58:16

where we can all just kind of

58:18

gather and take photos and be creative

58:20

and eat good food and kind of

58:22

heal, you know, and build community and

58:24

all that. But of course, with anything,

58:26

I'm going to start small. So right

58:28

now, I am working on planning a

58:30

workshop that would, you know, entail some

58:32

things I've talked about just a couple

58:34

minutes ago. I was talking about, you

58:36

know, doing that exposure of taking

58:39

photos while learning the technical piece

58:41

and being in nature. I'm actually

58:43

going to be partnering with a fellow

58:45

dietitian friend of mine who is also

58:47

a body image specialist. She's very talented

58:49

and you know we both we both

58:52

have the skills to do the counseling

58:54

dietitian stuff. She has a bit more

58:56

experience with that than me and I

58:58

have basically all the experience in photography.

59:00

So we're going to be putting together

59:03

probably just a day long or possibly

59:05

a couple days depending on logistics. It'll

59:07

be a workshop where we do. You

59:09

know we get together and it'll be

59:12

a small group and we'll start with

59:14

sort of a expectation setting sort

59:16

of talking about you know why people

59:18

are here and what what are you nervous

59:20

about what are you fearing what do

59:23

you want to get out of this and

59:25

then I will you know do the education

59:27

on here's how you compose a photo here's

59:29

what I what I do when I take

59:31

cell portraits here's you know sort of some

59:34

of the choices that I make and why

59:36

and then you know, we will have everyone take

59:38

their unself purchase. And again, like with whatever

59:40

camera, they could have a DSL, they could

59:43

have a muralist, they could have an iPhone,

59:45

anything's fair game. We just want them to

59:47

be, you know, getting into that creative space

59:49

and getting into the space of creating

59:51

art with their body rather than seeing

59:53

their body as the enemy while also challenging

59:55

the beliefs in their head and in society

59:58

that say, you know, like, you're not. enough,

1:00:00

you're not pretty enough to be in

1:00:02

photos, like that's ridiculous and not true.

1:00:04

So we want to help them challenge

1:00:06

that with guidance, right? I will be

1:00:08

providing guidance as far as, you know,

1:00:10

technical support and what if the photo

1:00:12

is not turning out, like what if

1:00:14

something's being done wrong, and then we

1:00:16

will also be there providing emotional guidance

1:00:18

and support, you know, what if you

1:00:20

just really are feeling weird, whatever feeling

1:00:22

uncomfortable, how do you move through that

1:00:24

and continue to have an experience that

1:00:26

will... provide you some value. And then

1:00:28

afterwards, we'll do, you know, a little

1:00:30

debrief on what came up, what was

1:00:32

hard for you, what did you gain

1:00:35

from this, how, you know, what's there

1:00:37

any healing done? And that's sort of

1:00:39

a rough, a rough description of what

1:00:41

the workshops will be. We are still

1:00:43

in the beginning planning stages, though I

1:00:45

think by the time this airs, they

1:00:47

will be happening soon. I think they're

1:00:49

doing them and we're planning on March,

1:00:51

I think, as of right now. That's

1:00:53

kind of the idea. And I think

1:00:55

one of my goals at least would

1:00:57

be to do this sort of one

1:00:59

to two day smaller workshop, you know,

1:01:01

both because it's more local, we'll be

1:01:03

doing it local to Seattle so that

1:01:05

nobody has to like drive forever or

1:01:07

stay overnight somewhere. So it's more accessible

1:01:09

with potentially the longer term goal of

1:01:11

doing a longer weekend long. We plan,

1:01:13

you know, retreat where we can, you

1:01:15

know. get more in depth and go

1:01:17

more into it because this isn't I

1:01:19

mean photography is a very helpful tool

1:01:21

for healing body image but doing it

1:01:24

in a day is just one day

1:01:26

out of a lifetime right it's not

1:01:28

like we're going in thinking okay we're

1:01:30

gonna like heal everyone they're never gonna

1:01:32

need support they're never gonna need therapy

1:01:34

ever again that is unrealistic so the

1:01:36

goal of course would be how do

1:01:38

we make this even a more impactful

1:01:40

experience but I'm very very very very

1:01:42

excited for our first go at this

1:01:44

type of workshop and I'm guessing if

1:01:46

someone's interested in that the best way

1:01:48

to stay up to date is to

1:01:50

go to your website get on your

1:01:52

newsletter so that when those start to

1:01:54

roll out you'll get an email about

1:01:56

it yes definitely so yes my website

1:01:58

newsletter which you can find easily on

1:02:00

the website, how easily it will pop

1:02:02

up for you. Sorry if that's very

1:02:04

annoying. And then I'll probably be sharing

1:02:06

a little bit of it on Instagram

1:02:08

as well, but definitely my newsletter

1:02:11

would be the number one most detailed

1:02:13

spot to find that. Cool, yeah, and

1:02:15

that'll be on the show notes, so all good.

1:02:17

All right, so taking a slightly more

1:02:19

controversial turn here, just for fun. I love

1:02:22

it. It's something I sort of

1:02:24

enjoy to do sometimes to poke

1:02:26

the harness a little bit. So

1:02:28

obviously... I'm a prefacist by saying

1:02:31

that I'm painting with a fairly

1:02:33

large brush here, right? In my

1:02:35

circles and people I've talked to

1:02:38

in photography, I've found that for

1:02:40

a lot of people, self-portrait photography

1:02:42

is often associated with women

1:02:44

in bikinis, looking to grow

1:02:47

their social media numbers, a

1:02:49

lot of thirst traps, people

1:02:51

who are like trying to

1:02:53

become influencers or they are

1:02:55

influencers, and they've got 200,

1:02:58

300. thousand followers and they're

1:03:00

promoting other people's products. How

1:03:02

do you navigate this particular

1:03:04

space as someone with a

1:03:06

completely different goal? Yes, yes, I

1:03:08

do have a completely different goal. Thank

1:03:11

you for highlighting that. Yeah, it's hard

1:03:13

because I do, you know, I do

1:03:15

feel this really strong sense of pride

1:03:18

for being kind of, I mean,

1:03:20

the internet's a big place, right? It

1:03:22

was slightly less big around. 2009

1:03:24

or so when I was starting. Again, there

1:03:26

was no Instagram, there was no 200,000 followers,

1:03:29

there was none of that. And so, you

1:03:31

know, I do take a lot of pride

1:03:33

in sort of being one of the first

1:03:35

that I know of, like, modern day celebrate

1:03:38

photographers. I know women have been really rocking

1:03:40

it in, you know, nature landscape photos for

1:03:42

a long time. Women have been doing amazing

1:03:44

work in the landscape and art area for

1:03:47

a really long time. So I, you know,

1:03:49

I know I'm not the first, but

1:03:51

I have been around for... much longer

1:03:53

than a lot of the Instagram influencer

1:03:55

bikini selling sort of

1:03:58

like that vibe. of

1:04:00

artists or influencer don't know I guess

1:04:02

what the proper word is there. I'm

1:04:04

not gonna I'm not gonna make you

1:04:06

take a stance there but pretty sure

1:04:08

we're on the same page great and

1:04:10

I've never wanted to present myself or

1:04:13

my art that way that would not

1:04:15

be in line with my values as

1:04:17

a human with my authentic self as

1:04:19

an artist, a photographer, you know, and

1:04:21

a model of my, you know, of

1:04:23

my own work, I guess. That's weird.

1:04:25

I hardly ever call myself a model.

1:04:28

In fact, I never do. Maybe part

1:04:30

of this object. And it is hard

1:04:32

now, knowing that I have, you know,

1:04:34

over a decade and a half of

1:04:36

experience in this field. I have been

1:04:38

doing it for longer than almost anyone

1:04:40

on social media at this point, I

1:04:43

think. There are people coming in saying,

1:04:45

like, look at my body, look at

1:04:47

these things I'm selling, you know, look

1:04:49

at me, look at me, and they

1:04:51

are getting a lot of attention for

1:04:53

that. And I'm not in it for

1:04:55

the attention. I mean, if I want

1:04:57

to support myself as an artist, I

1:05:00

need to get some attention in order

1:05:02

to have an audience who wants to

1:05:04

engage with my work, come to my

1:05:06

workshops, things like that. And I think

1:05:08

that's valuable and I think people should

1:05:10

do that. But it would feel icky

1:05:12

to me to do it, sort of

1:05:15

the influencer route and just be in

1:05:17

it for the likes and all of

1:05:19

that. You know, I want to take

1:05:21

some portraits whether I'm on social media

1:05:23

or not. You know, I will continue

1:05:25

to do so even if Instagram dies.

1:05:27

And if, you know, if we have

1:05:30

no way of sharing photos for likes,

1:05:32

like I will continue to be the

1:05:34

same kind of photographer that I am.

1:05:36

And it's hard because people I think

1:05:38

put me in that bucket without really

1:05:40

knowing. You know, in addition to the

1:05:42

like, what is self-porty photography? Wow, can

1:05:44

I see your photos? So are you

1:05:47

just taking selfies? Like all of that

1:05:49

feedback? Something else I get is so

1:05:51

you're just an influencer, right? People kind

1:05:53

of make assumptions that I'm just in

1:05:55

it for the products or for the,

1:05:57

the notar. on Instagram or whatever it

1:05:59

is and I'm definitely not. And it's

1:06:02

hard, but I'm also, you know, wearing

1:06:04

dresses now in my, you know, the

1:06:06

last year in the photos. I am

1:06:08

wearing things that would imply maybe something

1:06:10

that is not true about my work.

1:06:12

And nobody knows, I can tell the

1:06:14

truth about my own work, but nobody

1:06:17

can like see inside my brain and

1:06:19

say, oh yeah, that's right. She's telling

1:06:21

the truth, right, right? Like I, all

1:06:23

I can do is continue creating my

1:06:25

art and putting it in the way

1:06:27

that feels dust to me. you know,

1:06:29

hoping that the people who do view

1:06:31

my work are ones that trust me

1:06:34

that, you know, are here for reasons

1:06:36

that we can kind of mutually respect

1:06:38

each other. And before we started recording

1:06:40

today, I made a joke about you

1:06:42

buying one of my prints and you

1:06:44

said, well, I don't know if my

1:06:46

wife would like, you know, a photo

1:06:49

of another woman hanging on my on

1:06:51

the wall. And the thing that that

1:06:53

came up for me was, you know,

1:06:55

You know, a lot of people have

1:06:57

art in their homes, whether it's a

1:06:59

painting or a sculpture or, you know,

1:07:01

whatever it is, people have art that

1:07:04

depicts human bodies, right? Whether it's, you

1:07:06

know, a close-up of maybe a face

1:07:08

or if it's, you know, I can

1:07:10

think of, somebody I know has a

1:07:12

really beautiful painting, like front and center

1:07:14

over their fiber place at home, that

1:07:16

depicts a woman and a couple of

1:07:18

children and they're on the beach and

1:07:21

they're on the beach and they're on.

1:07:23

And I kind of want to point

1:07:25

to that and say, why is my

1:07:27

art not to be the same way

1:07:29

as just art, as just a thing

1:07:31

of beauty that can be admired, it

1:07:33

can be hung on a wall, it

1:07:36

can be talked about, you know, like

1:07:38

any vocal motion, all of that? Why

1:07:40

do... people a lot of people not

1:07:42

everyone but why do people automatically jump

1:07:44

to the conclusion of oh well it's

1:07:46

2024 and you're on Instagram you must

1:07:48

just be doing it for the likes

1:07:51

you know and it's you know it

1:07:53

is hard because I do use Instagram

1:07:55

as a tool so there is this

1:07:57

line you know a line that I

1:07:59

have to draw for myself morally and

1:08:01

in my actions, but also that the

1:08:03

other people I hope would kind of see

1:08:05

in the way that I share my work and

1:08:08

the way that I show up on social media

1:08:10

and say, okay, maybe she is different. Maybe

1:08:12

she is an artist who is trying to

1:08:14

create something of value and not just,

1:08:16

you know, do it for the attention.

1:08:19

I feel like there's kind of another

1:08:21

piece in here though that's hard, which

1:08:23

is that again, like if I want

1:08:25

to support myself as an artist. I

1:08:27

can sell prints, I do sell prints.

1:08:30

If anyone wants to buy my

1:08:32

prints, they're on sale. But that for

1:08:34

me at least so far is not a

1:08:36

sustainable way to make a living, a full

1:08:38

living. So I need to do other

1:08:40

things. Yes, I absolutely am super thrilled,

1:08:43

so excited, like really over the moon

1:08:45

about these workshops and retreats that

1:08:47

I'm planning, but there's other things

1:08:49

too. There is, like, do I

1:08:51

collaborate with brands and try to

1:08:53

promote products? That being said, I

1:08:55

would only ever do that for

1:08:57

products that I believe in, that

1:08:59

I use, you know, things that

1:09:02

I think helped me with my art

1:09:04

that, you know, provide some value

1:09:06

in my life, but that is still

1:09:08

selling something, which is hard, you

1:09:10

know, and I'm not sure if I would do

1:09:13

that. I mean, then again, yeah, I don't

1:09:15

know, it's so hard. So I, I just really

1:09:17

try to live my life from a

1:09:19

place of, you know, living in accordance with my

1:09:22

values. And so I guess if that opportunity ever

1:09:24

showed up, I would evaluate, you know, what does

1:09:26

this thing, this potential like product, partnership, whatever,

1:09:28

what does it do for me? Do I

1:09:30

believe in the product? Like if Shimoda wants

1:09:32

to sponsor me, thank you, I would definitely

1:09:34

do that. But you know, if it's like, someone I've never

1:09:36

heard of, I guess I'd have to like be a little

1:09:38

bit discerning. Yeah, and it's hurting. And there is a

1:09:40

line. And there is a line. And it's a

1:09:42

line. It's a line. It's a line. It's 2024.

1:09:44

It's 2024. It's 2024. It's 2024. It's 2024. It's

1:09:46

2024. It's 2024. It's 2024. works and the way

1:09:48

the capitalism works. These are things that I

1:09:51

think about for myself as well, especially

1:09:53

in regards to the podcast, because it's

1:09:55

like I understand that there's kind of

1:09:57

a fine line that we walk when we

1:09:59

are creating. something of value whether that

1:10:01

be content or artwork or whatever it

1:10:04

is and I love what you said

1:10:06

about values because that is kind of

1:10:08

like the checkbox right like does this

1:10:11

align with my values or not and

1:10:13

then the tougher question is then like

1:10:15

how do I or maybe you don't

1:10:18

care but it's like how do I

1:10:20

convey that to my audience like without

1:10:22

them judging me like I remember yeah

1:10:25

I don't even remember what cause this

1:10:27

to happen but I had a listener

1:10:29

one time a couple years ago was

1:10:31

like this podcast is sold out to

1:10:34

social media and blah blah blah and

1:10:36

I was like I have no idea

1:10:38

what this guy's talking about I have

1:10:41

the podcast has like 3,000 Instagram followers

1:10:43

I mean I don't understand what you're

1:10:45

saying here but anyways like there's that

1:10:48

kind of knee-jerk reaction that happens in

1:10:50

this space yeah and I'm as guilty

1:10:52

as anyone like I see that kind

1:10:55

of stuff all the time and I'm

1:10:57

like You know, so it's hard, right?

1:10:59

Yeah, it's so hard. Well, I was

1:11:02

actually going to ask you, you know,

1:11:04

especially knowing that email exchange you had,

1:11:06

how do you partner with brands? Like,

1:11:08

how do you decide what is aligned

1:11:11

for you? And like, how do you,

1:11:13

if you are trying to avoid being,

1:11:15

like, too salesy, which I don't know

1:11:18

if you are, I guess. I'm very

1:11:20

cautious about that. So what you said

1:11:22

earlier is very true for me around

1:11:25

like I would never promote something that

1:11:27

I didn't personally think was useful or

1:11:29

you know, like if it's something that

1:11:32

I would use and it's cool and

1:11:34

I want to recommend it to someone

1:11:36

else, not just because it's the highest

1:11:39

bidder, like for example, I could probably

1:11:41

easily get several big name photography print

1:11:43

labs to advertise, right. But like I

1:11:45

don't. trust their product. And so like

1:11:48

for them to be like, we'll pay

1:11:50

you $1,000 a month to promote our

1:11:52

product and me knowing that I don't

1:11:55

like that product. that would be a

1:11:57

conflict, internal conflict for me, like, that

1:11:59

I just, I can't cross that line,

1:12:02

right? So, yeah. And I think, for

1:12:04

better or worse, there's a lot of

1:12:06

people out there that have, don't have that line,

1:12:08

like, they don't care. I, you know, and I don't, in

1:12:10

some ways, that sounds kind of nice and freeing, but the

1:12:13

other, at the other end of the spectrum, it's like,

1:12:15

how do you slip a night, you know, you know, you know,

1:12:17

you know, like, like, like, you know, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:12:19

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:12:21

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:12:23

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:12:25

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:12:28

like, like, like, like or decision-making process that people

1:12:30

make but at the end of the day it's

1:12:32

personal right like if you're comfortable

1:12:34

promoting something that you don't think is very

1:12:36

good but it gets you a lot of

1:12:39

money like that's that's the bed you get

1:12:41

to lie in and yeah that's the image that

1:12:43

you get to project and yeah so

1:12:45

I don't know like it's reputation-based for

1:12:47

me like I'm only gonna promote stuff

1:12:49

that I know is something I use and I

1:12:52

value yeah well that's good to know as

1:12:54

somebody who Again, like I have the

1:12:56

disconnect of like having so much

1:12:58

experience with this type of photography,

1:13:00

but not for reasons, other reasons that

1:13:02

I can talk about for a whole

1:13:04

other hour, but have like I've not

1:13:06

ever until recently tried to actually get

1:13:08

serious about this as a job, basically,

1:13:10

it's a career. And it is, you

1:13:12

know, so I feel like I am

1:13:14

from that perspective, starting from the beginning

1:13:16

of like trying to figure my way

1:13:18

out, you know, how do I How

1:13:20

do I make this sustainable? And to

1:13:22

know that you're having trouble and you've

1:13:24

been doing this professionally for a lot

1:13:26

longer than me and have a much larger

1:13:29

audience, that is good to know and also

1:13:31

really sad. I mean, man, I mean,

1:13:33

we could have a whole two hour

1:13:35

podcast about this because to be fair,

1:13:37

like almost every photographer I talk to

1:13:39

struggles with this kind of stuff, at

1:13:41

least people who are like doing it

1:13:43

full time professionally. And the best advice

1:13:45

I can give to people is, you need

1:13:47

to diversify. and you need to have

1:13:49

a marketing plan and you have a

1:13:52

strategy and you need to spend probably

1:13:54

a lot more time marketing yourself than

1:13:56

you probably are comfortable doing. So, you

1:13:59

know, start there. Because honestly, like the people

1:14:01

who are the most well -known in this space,

1:14:04

the people who are, who we perceive

1:14:06

to be the most famous, you

1:14:08

know, like with the largest followings. It's

1:14:10

usually not because they have the

1:14:12

best photography or the best workshops or

1:14:14

the best product. They are just

1:14:16

really, really, really good at marketing. Yeah.

1:14:18

Not to be put on the

1:14:21

show, but I did notice that you

1:14:23

had Matt Peter Iverson on recently

1:14:25

and I'm like, Oh my God, I

1:14:27

have to follow that guy. He's

1:14:29

like, in my mind, like famous. Like

1:14:31

that's so intimidating. Yeah. I mean,

1:14:33

again, like he's done a really great

1:14:35

job of marketing himself. He takes

1:14:37

great photographs, but also I mean, the

1:14:40

guys put countless hours into his

1:14:42

YouTube channel. And yeah, so I mean,

1:14:44

that's the other thing too is

1:14:46

like people, you have to grind. All

1:14:48

right. Like you could take, like

1:14:50

you could be the best self -portrait

1:14:52

photographer on planet earth. And maybe you

1:14:54

are, right? But like unless like

1:14:56

people don't know who you are, it

1:14:59

doesn't matter. know, I know, which

1:15:01

is hard, because I mean, there are

1:15:03

certainly self -portrait photographers who are more

1:15:05

well known than me and I

1:15:07

respect them greatly and they're really talented.

1:15:09

And that doesn't mean I don't

1:15:11

think that makes me any worse of

1:15:13

a photographer. I think I'm just

1:15:15

as good. I just, yeah, I haven't

1:15:18

been trying to put myself out

1:15:20

there as much until recently. So yeah,

1:15:22

it is hard. It is hard.

1:15:24

It is hard. All right. So that

1:15:26

was a little side, a little

1:15:28

side deviation there, but get us a

1:15:30

little back on track here. So

1:15:32

knowing that a lot of judgment comes

1:15:34

with putting yourself in the photograph,

1:15:37

especially as a woman, how have you

1:15:39

been able to get over the

1:15:41

unfortunate fact that people do that when

1:15:43

they're looking at your style of

1:15:45

work? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I will

1:15:47

say maybe because of my very

1:15:49

small following. So, hey, this is a

1:15:51

benefit that I, you know, I

1:15:53

don't get a lot of negative comments

1:15:56

or negative feedback on my work,

1:15:58

at least not that kind where people

1:16:00

are, you know, judging me or. objectifying

1:16:02

me or anything like that. So, you know, there's, I guess, positive

1:16:04

and negative to still being relatively,

1:16:06

you know, unknown, that I have

1:16:09

the freedom to express myself however

1:16:11

I want to not, you know, get

1:16:13

backlash for it. I do, however, experience

1:16:15

that a lot in person. So when

1:16:17

I'm actually shooting, there is a park really

1:16:19

close to my house. It's, I think,

1:16:21

the closest, the closest one to me. So

1:16:24

it's where I end up going a

1:16:26

lot of the time crunch or if

1:16:28

I'm just, create something. If I'm just wanting

1:16:30

to express something, I often go to

1:16:32

this park and for some reason. I've

1:16:34

noticed, you know, the different logo parks around

1:16:36

me kind of all have their different,

1:16:38

like the people there have like

1:16:41

collective personalities or like collective reactions to

1:16:43

my work. So like there's one other place

1:16:45

I go where I never get spoken to

1:16:47

at all. People ignore me, they apologize for

1:16:49

having their dogs come too close to me

1:16:51

and then they move on, right? Like they're

1:16:53

very like on their own solitary. this

1:16:55

particular place that I go, so close

1:16:58

to my apartment, people always comment. I

1:17:00

get some really ridiculous comments. Some of

1:17:02

them are nice, some of them are

1:17:04

supportive, like, wow, that's gonna make a

1:17:06

really beautiful photo. You know, I got

1:17:08

that one once and that made me

1:17:10

smile. But sometimes people just stare at

1:17:12

me. I mean, they're just looking at

1:17:14

me and they're not looking away. And

1:17:16

I sometimes try to ignore it. I do

1:17:19

sometimes, like, I will make eye contact and I will make

1:17:21

eye contact. zap them out of it and usually that works

1:17:23

and they kind of like wave or move on. Thankfully, I

1:17:25

have gotten some comments like, what are you doing? What is

1:17:27

this? You know, is this for a project? I someone wanted

1:17:29

to ask me if I was a student and I was

1:17:31

doing an art project and I was like, well, thank you,

1:17:34

I'm so flattered that you think I could be that age.

1:17:36

And you know, no one's too old to be a student,

1:17:38

but no, this is just for fun. Just for me and

1:17:40

it, and it, and it, and it's for me, and it,

1:17:42

and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it,

1:17:44

and it's, and it, and it's, and it's, and it, and it's,

1:17:46

and it's, and it's, and it, and it, and it's, and it's,

1:17:48

and it's, and it's, and it, and it's, and it's, part.

1:17:51

If people are going to make

1:17:53

sort of a rudeish comment, they

1:17:55

tend to, you know, kind of sugar

1:17:57

coat it. They say like, oh, this

1:17:59

is cool, you know, like what are you

1:18:02

doing? Or you know, I do actually get

1:18:04

people offering to help me a lot in

1:18:06

these more crowded places. People saying, oh, can

1:18:08

I take the picture for you? And I

1:18:10

say thank you, but no, I'm good. And

1:18:13

it is hard to feel people's eyes on

1:18:15

me and feel like they're judging me. And

1:18:17

I mean, they are kind of by definition

1:18:19

objectifying me by just staring on me, creating

1:18:22

on me, creating my work, and that's really

1:18:24

hard and something that I've had to just

1:18:26

work through because there's nothing I can do

1:18:28

about it. It's a free world. If anyone

1:18:30

wants to go to the local park, it

1:18:33

happens to be near my house. They're of

1:18:35

course more than welcome to do that. And

1:18:37

you know, I hope that they see me

1:18:39

doing my work and they say, oh, that

1:18:41

was so interesting. And maybe it sparks a

1:18:44

conversation on the way home. You know, I

1:18:46

hope at the very least I've caused them

1:18:48

to think or see the world differently or

1:18:50

to see the world. second guess their judgments,

1:18:53

but I do get the sense that a

1:18:55

lot of people see me, you know, wearing

1:18:57

a dress. People comment on my dresses sometimes.

1:18:59

They'll say that's really pretty or, oh, you

1:19:01

look like a princess or you look whatever,

1:19:04

and I, you know, don't have it in

1:19:06

me to start a whole conversation about that,

1:19:08

about why you maybe shouldn't just like go

1:19:10

up to a stranger and... tell her that

1:19:12

she looks good in a dress. I don't,

1:19:15

I mean, that's the whole thing. So I

1:19:17

really had to toughen up a little bit

1:19:19

in those cases. And it used to be

1:19:21

really hard for me. It used to just

1:19:23

feel so uncomfortable that, you know, I would

1:19:26

like find a more secluded area or I

1:19:28

would wait until the person walked away and

1:19:30

at this point, I just keep going. You

1:19:32

know, I just pose, I just get really

1:19:35

in my feelings and I, you know, maybe

1:19:37

I might even use that as kind of

1:19:39

fuel. Just like a model who like cares

1:19:41

about my looks and I hate that so

1:19:43

I'm gonna like channel that energy into my

1:19:46

posing and I'm gonna you know channel that

1:19:48

into you know like the for us the

1:19:50

what instead of word to say ferocity is

1:19:52

that a word like ferocious? Yeah Oh well

1:19:54

I okay well anyways I'm going to channel

1:19:57

that into the ferocity of my you know

1:19:59

of my work with my everything So in

1:20:01

that case, it's nice. It's helpful. It's like,

1:20:03

thanks for the boost. But please don't come

1:20:06

back. So yeah, it's hard. Thankfully, my family

1:20:08

and friends are generally a bit more accepting,

1:20:10

even if they don't understand if they have

1:20:12

those judgments, they keep them to

1:20:14

themselves, which I appreciate. But it's hard

1:20:17

kind of knowing or wondering if people

1:20:19

are thinking kind of judgmental thoughts

1:20:21

about me or objectifying thoughts about me, and

1:20:23

I can't help what people think. All I

1:20:25

can do is not let them change

1:20:27

the way the way the way that I. that I

1:20:29

create. I love that. Yeah, the closest

1:20:32

thing I have to that, that I

1:20:34

think almost all of my friends

1:20:36

experience at one point in

1:20:39

another is, you know, nine times out

1:20:41

of 10, I'm out there with a

1:20:43

tele photo lens, right? You know, looking

1:20:45

at stuff and... Inevitably, there's

1:20:47

someone who comes up

1:20:49

and they're like, oh, what

1:20:51

do you see out there? What are

1:20:54

you photographing? Like, is it an elker?

1:20:56

Is it a bear? It's just a

1:20:58

tree, you know? Like I'm

1:21:00

just photographing that tree. You

1:21:02

know? Or like, yeah, I'm just

1:21:05

photographing that mud right there. You

1:21:07

see the mud, right? You know,

1:21:10

and they're like, what? They're

1:21:12

photographing mud? That's the best.

1:21:14

Oh, you know, the worst

1:21:16

one I get is, wow.

1:21:18

It's really amazing how nice

1:21:20

of a picture you can

1:21:22

get with a fancy camera.

1:21:24

Oh, of course. around what you were just

1:21:26

you were just describing in terms of like

1:21:28

people's reactions I think is largely driven by

1:21:31

and again depending with the big rush but

1:21:33

it's large I feel like it's largely driven

1:21:35

by kind of like this ever since Instagram

1:21:37

and influencers and all that like this

1:21:40

culture that's emerged around kind of like

1:21:42

meism like look at me look at me look

1:21:44

at me I'm every like everyone's has a succession

1:21:46

of getting a selfie of themselves everywhere they go

1:21:48

yeah and you know I'll never deny this but

1:21:51

I mean I'm a cynic so You know, when

1:21:53

I see that stuff, my first reaction is like,

1:21:55

okay, they want the attention, they, you know, they

1:21:57

thrive on the fact that they're gonna post this.

1:22:00

and like all of these people

1:22:02

are going to be like oh

1:22:04

my gosh and so which is

1:22:06

fine like we're all human like

1:22:08

we thrive on like we all

1:22:10

need attention right like it's something

1:22:12

photographers struggle with constantly right like

1:22:14

we're constantly doing stuff with our

1:22:16

photography so they can be seen

1:22:18

and noticed so I think that's

1:22:20

of normal human thing to do

1:22:22

And kind of gets back to

1:22:25

this authenticity thing around like, yeah,

1:22:27

or maybe does that feel real

1:22:29

to you? And I actually would,

1:22:31

if there are any, uh, scantily-clad

1:22:33

influencers or any other kind of

1:22:35

influencers listening to this conversation, I

1:22:37

actually would really like to know.

1:22:39

Does it feel authentic to do

1:22:41

that? I'm truly asking. Yeah, I

1:22:43

don't know. I mean, I had

1:22:45

another experience very similar to this,

1:22:48

this fall, actually. My buddy and

1:22:50

I were camped. camp spot that

1:22:52

we found right next to this

1:22:54

creek and fall colors all around

1:22:56

us and this like rented camper

1:22:58

van pulls up and a Subaru

1:23:00

and the Subaru was had this

1:23:02

super well-known Instagram photographer that was

1:23:04

following this these two two Australian

1:23:06

women in their 20s bikini I

1:23:08

mean this it's like 45 degrees

1:23:11

outside like it's fall they get

1:23:13

out and like he's taking their

1:23:15

picture in front of the van

1:23:17

in front of the fall color

1:23:19

right in our camp site Right?

1:23:21

Like, and it was just like

1:23:23

the most surreal experience because it's

1:23:25

like, first of all, is anyone

1:23:27

actually believe like you're gonna wear

1:23:29

that clothing in Colorado? Right. In

1:23:31

fall? So you know, it's just

1:23:34

like that whole culture is just

1:23:36

inundating us constantly on Instagram and

1:23:38

social media and I think to

1:23:40

a large degree, a lot of

1:23:42

people are just kind of tired

1:23:44

of seeing that kind of fake...

1:23:46

Representation of life, you know? Yeah,

1:23:48

yeah, and it's hard. I mean

1:23:50

it is hard when you phrase

1:23:52

it like that of my immediate

1:23:54

thought is yes, it's hard as

1:23:57

somebody who's intentionally trying to not

1:23:59

do that and

1:24:01

also I acknowledge that I do wear

1:24:03

dresses in my photos and that does

1:24:05

seem adjacent to if not to some

1:24:07

people the same as sure this influencer

1:24:09

culture and the reason that

1:24:11

I started wearing dresses initially was because you know like I

1:24:13

said I didn't really give much thought to what I

1:24:15

was wearing before you know when I was in high school

1:24:17

in college I kind of would like wear fubhands or

1:24:19

wear literal pajamas or you

1:24:21

know anything I had and

1:24:23

I started kind

1:24:26

of feeling like I you

1:24:28

know I wanted to take myself more

1:24:30

seriously as a photographer I wanted to make

1:24:32

art that I would be proud to have hang

1:24:34

on somebody's wall and in order to do that

1:24:36

my clothing had to be a part of the

1:24:38

art it couldn't just be like oh well what

1:24:40

I had on was jeans so I'm going out

1:24:42

in jeans I guess you know what I had

1:24:44

on was a t -shirt that says like caps

1:24:46

on it I don't know I'm from the DC

1:24:48

area you know like I'm gonna like go out

1:24:50

in that if my mom's listening I'm actually not

1:24:52

a hockey fan so she's gonna be like why

1:24:54

did you say that you don't wear caps close

1:24:56

um and I had to kind of try to

1:24:58

be intentional about it and to me you

1:25:01

know I love the way that wind interacts

1:25:03

with dresses especially specific materials I

1:25:05

love the way that light interacts with like

1:25:07

just like a large swath of fabric I

1:25:09

think it's really beautiful and I just came

1:25:11

to really appreciate that part of the art

1:25:13

and then again I mean a couple or

1:25:15

last week or something I went out and

1:25:17

I put on a body suit right like

1:25:19

I'm not tied to the idea of dresses

1:25:21

it's just easy and they're portable and I

1:25:23

can wear them over layers of warm clothing

1:25:25

yeah so it is hard to have to

1:25:27

explain verbally why

1:25:29

I do this when somebody else might be saying

1:25:31

well I do it for the likes and

1:25:33

the money and it's like that's not why

1:25:36

I'm here I don't know yeah it is really

1:25:38

interesting it's like a very fine line I

1:25:40

think that's hard to differentiate maybe to an outsider

1:25:42

well and I think that's where it's

1:25:44

important you know to pay attention to

1:25:47

things like artist statements or like when

1:25:49

you go to your website like you're

1:25:51

very clear about kind of what the

1:25:53

purpose of your art is and your

1:25:55

process and so I think that's where

1:25:57

that's how you can differentiate yourself all

1:25:59

right wow So that was fun. Last

1:26:01

question I have for you. Who

1:26:03

do you recommend for the podcast?

1:26:06

Who are a couple of

1:26:08

people that our listeners should

1:26:10

know about? Yeah, good question. I. love

1:26:12

building community with photography. So I'm happy

1:26:15

to talk about some other photographers who

1:26:17

I think are amazing. The first is

1:26:19

one of my very dear friends from

1:26:21

high school. Her name is Katie Lincoln.

1:26:23

She is a, she's a wedding photographer

1:26:26

who also I know, you know, she

1:26:28

likes to do travel stuff and she's

1:26:30

very talented. And she and I began

1:26:32

our photography journeys around the same time

1:26:34

in high school. We were in class

1:26:36

together. We did, you know, salt

1:26:39

portraits together. Like we really kind

1:26:41

of like grew up grew up. together as

1:26:43

far as being artists and then kind

1:26:45

of have taken our own paths. But

1:26:47

she's just a bad ass and has

1:26:49

just I think a really inspirational story

1:26:51

and is really talented and really passionate

1:26:53

about what she does. And I hope

1:26:55

you cut this out, but like I

1:26:58

know she's a wedding photographer and like

1:27:00

maybe that's not your jam. But also she

1:27:02

is a talented like travel photographer and

1:27:04

just like a really cool human and

1:27:06

I think you would enjoy your conversation

1:27:09

with her. So that's my my plug

1:27:11

for Katie. people that fit that mold.

1:27:13

So it's all good. Great, okay, amazing. The

1:27:15

other person I'd recommend, interestingly, is somebody who

1:27:18

I met through Katie but now lives in

1:27:20

Seattle. So I've seen her, you know, we've

1:27:22

like met in person even though our mutual

1:27:24

friend lives across the country. But her name

1:27:27

is Van. I will not try to pronounce her

1:27:29

last name because it's very hard to say that

1:27:31

I've never asked how to say it. She is

1:27:33

a really talented and creative elop

1:27:35

photographer in photographer in Washington

1:27:38

and she I mean, just has like a really

1:27:40

cool energy. It's kind of hard to explain, but

1:27:42

when you get to know her, she just has

1:27:44

this like magnetic sort of energy that

1:27:46

makes you want to be her friend

1:27:48

instantly. And she's so talented and she

1:27:50

is really, really committed to photography and

1:27:53

also knows all the best places in

1:27:55

the state of Washington and probably around

1:27:57

the world to photograph. So yeah, I

1:27:59

think that she's. excellent person to

1:28:01

be on the show

1:28:04

and you guys would

1:28:06

have a fantastic time

1:28:08

together and that's all

1:28:10

I got. I was

1:28:12

done. I love it.

1:28:14

Well Sarah, Sarah, this

1:28:16

has been really fun

1:28:18

and thank you for

1:28:20

your vulnerability and your

1:28:22

honesty and for telling

1:28:24

us all about your

1:28:26

approach to making photographs.

1:28:28

Yeah. Thanks for joining

1:28:31

me for another great

1:28:33

episode. A huge thank

1:28:35

you to Sarah Kushner

1:28:37

for sharing her journey

1:28:39

and insights into the

1:28:41

art of self-portrait photography.

1:28:43

Her story is such

1:28:45

a powerful reminder of

1:28:47

how photography can serve

1:28:49

as both a creative

1:28:51

outlet and a tool

1:28:53

for personal growth. Before

1:28:56

we wrap up, I

1:28:58

want to remind you

1:29:00

to subscribe to my

1:29:02

newsletter at Matt Payne

1:29:04

Photography.com. It's the best

1:29:06

way to stay updated

1:29:08

on new podcast episodes,

1:29:10

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1:29:12

and lots more. If

1:29:14

you're enjoying the podcast,

1:29:16

I'd also love your

1:29:18

support on patron at

1:29:20

patreon.com/f-stop and listen. Every

1:29:23

contribution helps keep the

1:29:25

show going and allows

1:29:27

me to bring you

1:29:29

incredible guests like Sarah

1:29:31

every week. Thanks for

1:29:33

stopping in, collaborating with

1:29:35

us, and listening. See

1:29:37

you next week.