0:02

Welcome to episode

0:05

two seventy

0:07

ore of FBI retired

0:10

case file review with Jerry

0:12

Williams. I'm a retired agent

0:15

on a mission to show you who the

0:17

FBI is and what the FBI

0:19

does through my books, my blog,

0:21

and my podcast case reviews with

0:23

former colleagues. Today, we

0:26

get to speak to retired agent,

0:28

Diane Harsha, who served in

0:30

the FBI for twenty nine years.

0:33

In this episode, Diane reviews

0:35

an exploitation of

0:36

children's case involving

0:38

a man who posed as

0:40

a potty training ex spur

0:42

in order to take nude photos

0:44

of a toddler for his sexual

0:47

gratification. She also talks

0:49

about working in a small resident agent

0:52

FBI's satellite office and

0:54

the importance of relying on

0:56

local law enforcement partners. She

0:58

dedicates this case review to

1:01

former colleagues from the Monetau

1:03

County Sheriff's Office in Missouri,

1:06

who were killed in the line of duty

1:08

during a tragic domestic abuse

1:10

call. We talk about that too.

1:13

Diane's work experience and areas

1:15

of expertise included general,

1:18

criminal, counterterrorism, and

1:20

crisis negotiations. During

1:22

her career, she was assigned to the Kansas

1:25

City Field office at the Jefferson

1:27

City resident agency in Missouri

1:30

the Detroit field office, Ligat

1:32

Rabat in Morocco, and

1:35

the Memphis division at the

1:37

Nashville resident agency in Tennessee.

1:40

She was also deployed on many

1:42

overseas, temporary duty assignments,

1:45

including to Iraq and Guantanamo

1:47

Bay. During and

1:49

after her FBI career,

1:51

Diane pursued her love of hiking

1:54

and the outdoors.

1:55

In twenty seventeen, she

1:57

completed the twenty two hundred

1:59

mile Appalachia trail, which

2:02

she began section hiking in

2:04

two thousand and five. Diane

2:06

is the author of Styx and

2:08

Stones. How to hike the Appalachian

2:11

Trail in thirteen years,

2:13

her memoir about the journey.

2:15

I get a chance to ask her what that was like

2:18

at the end of the case review. Now

2:20

before we get to the interview, I heard

2:22

some of you did not get the

2:24

full audio file for episode

2:27

two seventy two. The case review

2:29

about the family annihilation with

2:31

former FBI profiler, Mark

2:33

Safrik, Sorry about that.

2:36

The file was fixed, but if you

2:38

didn't get to hear the full episode,

2:41

what you're gonna have to do is to

2:43

mark the episode in your podcast

2:46

app as played and delete

2:48

it. And then re download

2:51

episode two seventy two.

2:53

I apologize for that. I'm not sure what

2:55

happened, but you don't want to miss

2:57

the conclusion of that

2:59

case review. It is unbelievable.

3:03

As is this case review with

3:05

Diane Harsha. In your podcast

3:07

apps description of this episode,

3:10

there's a link to the show notes

3:12

as well as to how you can

3:14

buy me a coffee, join my reader

3:17

team, and check out my crime fiction

3:19

and non fiction books. Don't

3:21

forget to follow me on social

3:23

media. I'm at jerry

3:25

Williams one on Instagram and

3:28

Twitter and jerry Williams author

3:30

on Facebook. I'm also on

3:33

LinkedIn. Thank you for your

3:35

support.

3:36

Now here's a show.

3:37

I

3:39

wanna welcome my guest, Diane

3:42

Sticks Harsha. Hi,

3:44

Diane. Hi, Jared. Well,

3:46

let people

3:47

know where the nickname sticks comes

3:49

from. At the very end of the

3:51

episode, we have a chance to

3:53

talk about your book. sticks

3:56

and stones, how to hike

3:58

the Appalachian trail in

4:00

thirteen years. But for

4:02

now, we're gonna be talking about

4:05

a case that you worked

4:07

early in your career. So

4:09

why don't you give us

4:10

a brief introduction to the case,

4:13

what it's about, and where you were in your

4:15

career what you were assigned to

4:17

in the FBI when you were working the case,

4:19

and then we'll get into all the details.

4:22

Okay. Well, first of all, thank you

4:24

very much, Jerry, for

4:25

having me on your podcast. I've

4:27

listened to several of your episodes

4:29

and I'm a fan. I know it's been a

4:31

big hit in the retired agents community

4:34

as well as elsewhere. I'm

4:36

very happy to be here. So when you

4:38

in our first discuss the possibility

4:40

of of me being a a guest on your

4:42

show, I started thinking back

4:44

on my career course in different

4:46

cases that I've worked and thinking of one

4:49

that might be interesting to your

4:51

listeners. The one I wanna talk

4:53

about did happen early in

4:55

my career

4:56

I debated a little bit about talking

4:58

about it because it is a disturbing

5:00

case. It's a very sordid case.

5:03

but it has stuck with me all these

5:05

years. I thought about it from time to

5:07

time because it is so disturbing.

5:09

And also because it

5:12

really ended in tragedy of

5:14

some of the players that were involved. Some

5:16

of the law enforcement players that were

5:18

involved. The tragedy was not related

5:21

to the case, but these were the officers

5:23

that I worked with on this case.

5:25

And shortly after the end of the case,

5:28

there was this tragedy that fell this

5:30

community. That's another reason this

5:32

case has sort of stuck with me all these years because

5:34

I've thought about the folks that were involved

5:36

in it. I was first

5:38

office assigned to the Kansas City

5:41

Division, a Kevin Bureau in nineteen

5:43

eighty five, went to Kansas City, out

5:46

of Quantico. And

5:48

Kansas City is the field

5:50

office that covers the

5:52

Western half of

5:54

the State of Missouri. And I had been

5:57

in Kansas City for two or three years,

5:59

and I requested

5:59

a transfer to the

6:02

Jefferson City resident agency,

6:04

what we call an RA.

6:06

And

6:06

this would have been in nineteen eighty

6:08

nine ish. I'll just explain briefly

6:11

to your listeners. I know you know this

6:13

terminology, but I'm not sure all your listeners

6:16

will know exactly what a resident agency

6:18

does and how it fits into the

6:20

schematics of the FBI. As

6:23

you know, the FBI is domestically divided

6:25

into field offices across the United

6:28

States They're located in major cities.

6:30

And in the case of Missouri, you have

6:32

two field offices. You have Kansas City,

6:34

which as I said, covers the western part of

6:36

the state, and you have St. Louis, which

6:39

covers the eastern half of Missouri.

6:41

These sealed offices are then

6:44

broken down into further

6:47

smaller satellite offices

6:50

throughout the territory that

6:52

we call RA's. And

6:54

so these RA's are generally

6:57

small. They can consist of

6:59

as little as two agents to

7:02

larger RA's and in a bit

7:04

larger cities. But in any case,

7:06

the RA's are fairly bare bound

7:08

operations. the agents that are

7:10

assigned to them

7:11

still report to the field offices

7:12

in terms of that's where the paperwork

7:14

goes, that's

7:15

where the bosses are, the executives,

7:17

where the support staff

7:19

is,

7:19

where prosecutors are,

7:21

federal

7:22

court systems, etcetera. But when

7:24

I moved to the Jefferson City RA,

7:26

at that time was a three person, RA,

7:29

three agents. My responsibility was

7:32

to cover several counties

7:34

I don't remember how many exactly,

7:37

perhaps, seven or eight

7:39

in the south central part

7:41

of Missouri. when you're assigned

7:43

to a field office, Kansas City, for example,

7:45

you're going to be working on a squad, whether

7:48

it's a bank robbery squad or surveillance

7:50

squad, I call it crime squad, public

7:52

corruption squad, counterterrorism

7:54

squad. But if you're in a small

7:56

array, then you're going to

7:59

respond

7:59

to whatever criminal

8:02

activity that would fall under federal

8:04

jurisdiction within your territory. that

8:06

might be bank robberies, it might be fugitives,

8:09

it might be public corruption, whatever

8:12

is in those counties. Of course,

8:14

that means working well with and

8:16

closely with local counterparties, the

8:18

sheriff's departments, the police departments,

8:21

most of them fairly small

8:24

and covering a large geographical

8:27

territory. but working with small

8:30

numbers of personnel. So these

8:32

seven or eight counties, which

8:34

I covered in South Central

8:36

Missouri, revolver rural,

8:38

mostly farming, ranching

8:41

with the small communities that

8:43

support those industries, the

8:45

small, little towns. one

8:47

of the counties which I covered

8:49

was Monoto County,

8:52

a couple of counties west

8:54

of Jefferson City. and the

8:56

county seat is California.

8:58

It's the name of the town. Just a

9:00

small typical town clean,

9:04

pretty, very friendly people.

9:06

And as with all of the counties

9:08

that I covered, I got to know

9:10

the sheriff very well. We

9:12

have worked together on several

9:14

different cases, bank robberies, fugitives.

9:18

We knew each other from law enforcement conferences

9:20

or other interagency events,

9:23

etcetera. There was a mutual

9:25

respect, independence, and it

9:27

was always made clear that I could

9:29

be contacted anytime

9:32

if the sheriffs in these counties or

9:34

the police departments felt like they needed

9:36

a federal presence. I had

9:38

been in Jefferson City in

9:40

Miara there for maybe

9:42

a year or so.

9:44

Was it been late eighty nine or

9:46

early night nineteen ninety.

9:48

And I got a call from sheriff Kenny

9:50

of Moneta County, or maybe the

9:52

first call might have come from one of his

9:55

deputies, Russ, who

9:57

went on to be sort of the lead investigator

9:59

in this case, and we went on to work

10:01

very closely with. But whoever sheriff

10:03

Kenny or Russ contacted me

10:06

and said, hey, we got a situation

10:08

here. You probably need to know

10:11

about and it looks like it's gonna

10:13

be some interstate involvement,

10:16

we're probably gonna need your help.

10:18

The situation was explained to

10:20

me, and it was basically this.

10:23

Monaco County Sheriff's Department had

10:26

received a call from a concerned

10:28

citizen who had observed

10:31

a young man taking photographs

10:34

of a naked young child, toddler

10:36

age, at a small playground

10:39

there in the town of California. This

10:41

was in the summertime. So weather was warm.

10:44

So, of course, a deputy was

10:46

dispatched to this playground. And

10:49

when he got there, he indeed

10:51

finds a young man, maybe

10:53

his mid twenties, who was

10:56

identified as Don

10:58

Salada. And with him was

11:00

a little boy, two or three years

11:02

old, and they are just outside

11:05

of a van, a white panel

11:07

van parked there in the parking

11:09

lot. And it has Wisconsin plates

11:12

on it. out of state plates on it.

11:14

And so the deputy, of course, gets

11:16

information from Don Salada

11:19

there. who is cooperative and

11:21

basically tells the deputy, no,

11:24

this is not my child, but I

11:26

have his parents permission to

11:28

be here with him I am

11:30

potty training him. And his parents

11:32

know it. No problem. He's

11:34

telling the deputy. And the deputy says,

11:37

well, we need to talk to the

11:39

parents and we need to get some

11:41

further information about this. And

11:43

Salada continues to cooperate gives

11:46

them the name and contact information

11:49

for the parents who live there in

11:51

the town of California. And

11:53

the deputy says, mind if we take

11:56

a look in your van while we're

11:57

waiting for the parents to get here.

11:59

Sure,

11:59

he says, so the

12:02

deputy does just a very sort of cursory

12:05

consent search of the van.

12:07

Just enough to see that there

12:09

is a lot of stuff in that van that is

12:11

very suspicious. boxes

12:14

and boxes of magazines

12:17

and letters and

12:19

envelopes and photographs

12:23

some of which are depicting children

12:26

what could be construed

12:27

as pornography.

12:28

So, Salada is

12:31

taken into custody

12:33

the

12:33

parents have arrived on the scene.

12:35

They take the child. And at that

12:37

point, along in there, that's when

12:40

I am contacted. I drive

12:42

the hour and a half, two hours, whatever it is,

12:44

over to California. And

12:47

by this time, Salada is in

12:49

the shares department and continues

12:52

to be cooperative. He agrees

12:54

to be interviewed by me.

12:56

He signs a Miranda waiver and

12:59

he is interviewed. And

13:02

basically, he tells me this story

13:05

that He is an

13:07

expert in potty

13:10

training children. And

13:12

he has published articles about it,

13:15

and he has done research,

13:18

and this is

13:18

what his education is in.

13:21

He denies any involvement

13:23

with pornography or with any

13:25

such full exploitation of children, and

13:27

it is all part of his training.

13:30

In the meantime, I have contact

13:33

my supervisors back in Kansas City,

13:35

let them know what's going on, contact

13:37

the US attorney's office in

13:39

Kansas City to advise them

13:41

of the situation that we had sequential

13:44

charges of interstate transportation of

13:46

obscene material and or sexual

13:49

exploitation of children. By this

13:51

time, the proper people have been

13:53

notified. And state

13:55

charges are being brought

13:57

at that time against salada

13:59

while

13:59

we are considering what the

14:02

federal response is going to be.

14:04

I talked to the parents at some point

14:07

during those first few hours during

14:09

that first day and the parents

14:11

of the child who was with Salada at

14:13

the parking lot. They were very cooperative.

14:16

at first, we're somewhat

14:18

supportive of Salada in the sense

14:20

that no, we trust him. He's

14:23

an expert in this.

14:24

etcetera.

14:25

We found his name from a

14:27

reputable source, and

14:29

all of that was true. They had had

14:31

trouble potty training this child, who

14:33

was an only child and they

14:35

felt that that he was getting to the

14:37

age where he should be potty trained.

14:39

You had

14:40

initially said that he was two or

14:42

three, but maybe he was three or four?

14:44

that's my point is that they felt

14:46

like he should be potty trained, but you're

14:48

exactly right. I mean, that is not an

14:50

age where one would expect complete

14:52

potty training by any means. the

14:54

child was young enough that he was not

14:56

able to communicate very well

14:58

with us.

14:59

So the parents had concerns

15:02

and

15:02

They found in a reputable

15:04

magazine at the back of this magazine

15:06

and add for personal

15:09

party training. and it was

15:12

contact information for Salada.

15:14

Who they contacted? And who they had

15:17

various telephone conversations with

15:19

suggestions were made, etcetera, etcetera.

15:22

And then finally, at his

15:24

suggestion, they agreed to let him

15:26

travel from Wisconsin down to California

15:29

to personally potty train this child.

15:31

At first, the meetings between child

15:33

and salada were held in the family

15:36

home. But then, eventually, they

15:38

let him take the child out

15:40

to the park where,

15:41

eventually, he was observed

15:43

photographing the child. Of course,

15:45

the family was appalled

15:48

and very upset when

15:50

they were informed

15:51

of

15:52

the items that were found

15:54

inside the van

15:55

and were extremely ashamed

15:58

and felt very guilty he and

15:59

of course did the right thing in terms

16:02

of taking the child to make sure that there had been

16:04

no abuse of the child or taking the child

16:06

to the doctor, etcetera. that was how

16:08

the contact, the relationship

16:11

between his family and Salada

16:13

had developed. And that's why he was

16:15

in Missouri. a much

16:18

more thorough search was

16:20

conducted of the van,

16:23

and the background investigation

16:26

was done on Salada in

16:28

terms of where he was from, where he lived,

16:30

that sort of thing.

16:31

And the evidence was

16:34

transferred from California,

16:36

Missouri to my office

16:39

there in Jefferson City.

16:41

And there were boxes

16:42

and boxes and boxes of

16:45

various

16:46

articles, items.

16:47

What's important to note here?

16:50

is that this was pre internet

16:53

days.

16:53

This was the days when people

16:56

communicated by and large

16:59

at least photographic images

17:01

through the US male. There

17:04

were facts yeah. Just some do

17:06

I think there was early in the days of facts and

17:08

machines, I believe there were some faxes in

17:10

the van, but by and large, it was it

17:12

was photographic images in

17:14

envelopes that had been transferred through

17:16

the US mail with postage. As

17:19

all of this evidence was

17:21

laid out on the floor of my

17:23

office, in the hallway and

17:25

on my desk, every available space

17:28

that we could

17:30

to capture it, to inventory it,

17:32

to then photograph it because

17:35

we needed to disseminate it

17:37

to the appropriate field offices.

17:39

We were also in the process

17:42

of getting a search warrant for

17:44

Salada's home in Wisconsin.

17:47

He was being held in

17:49

custody at that time. He was still

17:51

in

17:52

state custody there in

17:54

Monterrey County. This

17:56

may also be a good time for you

17:58

to explain to everyone why

18:01

the FBI is there. You

18:03

have the state, you know, the local

18:05

police, pursuing state charges,

18:08

So why did they call you?

18:10

Okay. There's a couple of

18:12

factors there. First

18:13

of all, it was just the interstate

18:15

aspect of it. This person was

18:18

not a local person. He had traveled

18:20

from Wisconsin. He had a

18:23

vehicle without a state place. A

18:25

local sheriff's department does not

18:27

really have the resources, the

18:30

contacts, and other states

18:32

that the FBI has.

18:35

So initially, they may have just

18:37

looked at it from that angle. We need

18:39

to find out more about the sky, and

18:41

we may need the FBI's help because

18:44

the FBI will have contact obviously

18:46

all across the United States. So

18:49

initially, it may have just been maybe the

18:51

FBI can assist us in getting some

18:53

more information. about this person.

18:55

But there are also federal

18:58

laws regarding transportation

19:01

of child pornography.

19:02

interstate transportation of

19:04

child pornography is a federal offense.

19:07

While there are state charges

19:09

that also apply there

19:12

are those

19:12

federal charges as well. So

19:14

it was sort of two

19:15

facets,

19:16

two inches to that question. It was

19:18

the fact that there was this local slash

19:21

federal assistance, but

19:23

there was also that there was federal jurisdiction,

19:26

potential federal

19:26

jurisdiction involved. Howard

19:28

Bauchner: Great. Thank you.

19:30

As we looked at the evidence

19:33

and continued to inventory the

19:35

evidence, that became

19:36

more and more clear.

19:38

that there were going to be many

19:40

different field offices potentially

19:43

involved,

19:44

which would have been difficult

19:46

if not possible for Monotype

19:49

County with their limited resources

19:52

and limited jurisdiction. Frankly,

19:54

to have been

19:55

able to completely do

19:58

a thorough investigation

19:59

and to reach out to all of

20:02

the different law enforcement entities

20:04

that may be involved. As

20:06

we were looking at the evidence

20:09

at the different pieces of evidence,

20:11

what we were doing was taking

20:14

each photograph, each

20:17

envelope, the contents of

20:19

each envelope and trying to

20:21

determine where they originated from.

20:24

For example, you would have

20:26

an envelope addressed to

20:28

Salada. They're in Wisconsin. And

20:31

inside the envelope would be

20:34

photographs of a new child. or

20:36

photographs of a partially clad child.

20:38

And this photograph would

20:41

be accompanied by a letter.

20:43

for example. And in the letter,

20:45

there would be a description of

20:48

the photo or there would be comments

20:50

about the photo or there would

20:52

be reference to masturbation or

20:56

sexual references. And the envelope

20:58

many times would have a

21:01

return address on. This is

21:03

not uncommon among people

21:05

who obtain child pornography and

21:07

exchange child pornography things that they

21:09

are keepers. And even

21:12

in this case, including

21:13

keeping the envelopes with the

21:15

return addresses on it. So we

21:17

were able to compile

21:19

a long inventory

21:22

list of

21:24

persons who had

21:27

sent these images,

21:29

letters, photos through the US

21:32

mail. We then

21:34

drafted the appropriate

21:37

communications and setting out

21:39

the appropriate leads to these

21:41

various field offices. with

21:43

the information particular to

21:45

that specific field office. So

21:48

for example, you would have the name

21:51

of Joe Smith at 123

21:53

Main Street, Chicago, Illinois,

21:55

and we would send a communication. We

21:58

send a communication to the Chicago

21:59

field office.

22:01

including the description

22:04

and the information of

22:06

the evidence that had been sent

22:08

from that particular person from that particular

22:11

location. And then it was up

22:13

to that particular field office

22:15

to the agent who received that

22:17

information for me to confer

22:20

with his or her US attorney's office

22:22

and determine if there was enough

22:25

evidence

22:25

in that communication for

22:28

a search warrant of that particular

22:31

location and or an

22:33

arrest of that particular person.

22:35

And so we sent

22:38

leads to that effect

22:41

to several field

22:43

says I don't want to exaggerate, but I would

22:45

say upwards of two dozen

22:48

or so. And in some of those field

22:50

offices, may have had multiple

22:52

locations. There may have been

22:55

more than one subject, more

22:57

than one location that had

22:59

sent the material to Salada.

23:01

So

23:02

not only are you cooperating

23:04

the evidence that you have against

23:06

Salada, you are now identifying

23:09

and setting out leads for potentially

23:12

more investigations of

23:14

the people that he had been in contact

23:16

with and exchanging images

23:19

of child sexual abuse.

23:20

Exactly. Yes. There

23:22

were also some instances where

23:25

he had various names

23:27

jotted down in his little address

23:29

book or on sheets of notepaper or

23:32

whatever that may have not had any

23:34

images directly associated with

23:37

them, but still could have had

23:39

potential value as

23:42

witnesses or people who may have had knowledge

23:44

about this activity, those were

23:46

also included. there was

23:48

upwards of two dozen chilled offices.

23:51

Most of them were in the Midwest. I think

23:53

there were a couple in state of California.

23:56

I believe LA had couple, but they were

23:58

mostly in the Midwestern states.

24:00

don't want to get too graphic here, but

24:02

these people shared a

24:04

specific fetish. They

24:07

were interested in children

24:09

mostly boys of a very young

24:11

age, toddler to

24:13

maybe six, seven

24:15

years old

24:16

who were not potty trained.

24:18

So they were interested in children

24:21

wearing diapers and children

24:23

wearing rubber pants,

24:25

to some degree that posed

24:27

a little bit of an issue because

24:30

we all have pictures photographs

24:32

of our children wearing diapers or our children

24:34

on the potty or children in the bathtub.

24:37

And in our eyes, that's just

24:39

you know, there's nothing obscene about

24:41

that. Our sexual -- Mhmm. -- our

24:44

sexual. Right? I mean, it's

24:46

just cute and charming or whatever.

24:48

But this is what sexually

24:51

aroused this particular group

24:54

of people. But Again,

24:56

is that defined as pornography?

24:59

Right? If you and I look at it, we would

25:01

say no. And so what

25:04

actually defined it or

25:06

which would make a prosecutor be

25:08

able to look at it and say, okay, this is how

25:10

we can use this statute. is

25:12

that the letters, the narrative

25:15

that accompanied these images,

25:18

referred to sexual gratification. refer

25:21

to masturbation or went into

25:23

lurid description of the

25:25

photograph? I mean, there

25:28

were even things as benign as

25:30

pages torn out of magazines

25:32

for various ads.

25:34

Again, is that pornography?

25:36

So there was a lot of going

25:38

through all of these boxes and boxes

25:41

and separating out what no one

25:43

would define as pornography. And

25:46

then what could

25:48

maybe possibly assist. I don't know.

25:50

Eventually, it comes down to what a

25:52

prosecutor thinks that he or she

25:55

would be able to convince a

25:57

judge a jury of what would be pornography.

26:00

Let

26:00

me ask you this question because the

26:02

initial complaint was of him taking

26:05

a photo of this little boy

26:07

-- Mhmm. -- naked in

26:09

the nude. So there

26:11

were also it sounds like there were also

26:13

photos of kids that were

26:15

totally undressed, not in diapers.

26:18

Yes. And those there were no questions

26:20

about, I would assume.

26:22

Right. Yeah. That was the initial complaint,

26:24

was that there was a new child. And of

26:26

course, we had the camera. This was back in

26:28

the days of film, and that,

26:30

in fact, turned out to be the case.

26:32

Also, I think, and you're not wanting

26:34

to be too graphic, one of the

26:36

documents that you sent me was a

26:39

state appellate court ruling, and

26:41

they described some of the photos as

26:44

also not just the kids in the

26:46

diapers, but the kids and their

26:48

diapers are in the middle

26:50

of being changed with the I don't

26:52

know how to say this. The contents of the

26:54

diapers exposed Not

26:56

only was it just from my understanding and

26:58

correct me if I'm wrong, and I understand you're

27:01

wanting to be delicate and we can still do that I

27:03

hope. The part of their fetish was

27:05

not just the diapers itself, but the

27:07

fact that these were soiled diapers

27:09

and they had pictures of the kids actually

27:12

with the excrement or

27:14

number two or number one as

27:17

part of that also.

27:18

Yes. And I don't think any of

27:20

us can say that that was not pornography

27:23

in the sense that that was outside the

27:25

norm. We could take pictures

27:26

of our children in their cute

27:28

little diapers or whatever. But I

27:30

don't think that most people would

27:32

find taking photographs of a soil

27:35

diaper or a child in soul diaper

27:37

in any way charming or cute.

27:39

That was their particular

27:40

fetish. This group of people

27:42

who communicated through the mail

27:45

they

27:45

referred to this. They referred

27:47

to themselves as a fraternity. I

27:50

mean, they had made these connections over

27:52

the years that these folks and how

27:54

they initially found each other is beyond,

27:57

you know, I don't know. But there

27:59

was this underground

27:59

and I suppose this is probably

28:02

true of any fetish that's out there. These

28:04

folks find each other and exchange this

28:06

information. So it wasn't

28:08

just a couple of people with

28:10

this very aberrant fetish.

28:13

There were many people and I suspect there were

28:15

many, many, many more that we of

28:18

course, had no information about.

28:20

To move on with the investigation over

28:22

the first several days or so,

28:24

Salada was indicted separately

28:27

Meanwhile, these leads have gone out

28:29

to the various field offices. searches

28:31

were conducted. Search was conducted

28:34

in the subject's home in Wisconsin. and

28:36

that of course generated other

28:39

leads, other searches, and

28:41

it continued to develop

28:43

from there. As this went on, we

28:45

continue to generate other

28:47

leads. I tried to look back through newspaper

28:50

articles and because they were sort of variously

28:52

across United States with various

28:54

different names and locations. I don't

28:56

recall the exact number of people

28:58

who were actually arrested

29:01

and sentenced or played. And

29:04

I wanna say maybe eight or nine

29:06

altogether. And out

29:08

of the Kansas City division,

29:10

there was just salada, and

29:12

he was also held on state charges.

29:15

That was the investigation in

29:17

a very son upsized way.

29:20

I feel like the reason maybe it would

29:22

still resonate today is that because

29:24

obviously people don't

29:26

do this through the US mail probably

29:28

anymore. but the access

29:31

is so much easier now with the Internet.

29:34

And I feel like don't

29:36

wanna make parents paranoid or

29:38

or to be over vigilant, but

29:40

it disturbs me even now when

29:42

I see people posting things on

29:44

Facebook for example. of young

29:47

children that, again, you and

29:49

I would not find in any way

29:51

pornographic or inappropriate, but

29:54

some people might

29:55

Some people do and some people

29:58

will.

29:58

So I feel

29:59

like it's important to point out

30:02

as, like, maybe a little Reminder

30:04

that what we find in offensive,

30:07

other folks are going

30:08

to exploit. Maybe

30:10

there's a lesson in all that

30:13

to be learned. And then as

30:15

the case wrapped up, I was

30:17

transferred to Detroit

30:19

Division. Did we finish

30:21

talking about what happened with

30:23

Salada, the sentencing for both

30:25

state and for federal?

30:26

I don't really recall the Senate

30:29

said he got I did try to find out

30:31

a little more information about it. I just simply

30:33

couldn't recall, but for the record now, I'll say

30:35

that he was sentenced to several years

30:37

as well as on the state charges.

30:39

And

30:39

did he plea or was this a trial?

30:42

No. There was no trial. I don't recall testifying

30:44

in trial. Do recall the grand jury indictment.

30:47

And so there was there was a plea. Mhmm.

30:50

I like to talk a little bit more about

30:52

being an agent and a very

30:55

small RA. and you did mention

30:57

the fact that you had to be like

30:59

a jack of all trades when it comes

31:01

to different violations. Had you

31:03

work this type of crime against

31:06

children before and had you had any

31:08

type of training or counseling?

31:11

Because I would imagine looking at

31:13

these photos and dealing with this case

31:15

could cause some emotional strain,

31:18

emotional tension for the

31:20

person, the investigators?

31:21

Well, yes, I think

31:23

it is one of those cases that you tend

31:25

to take home with you, and it's

31:28

hard to kind of shake from your mind.

31:30

I had been a police officer before

31:32

I was in the FBI And so

31:34

I had worked various general

31:36

criminal. When I came in the FBI,

31:39

my first office was in Kansas City where

31:42

I was on the bank robbery squad and

31:44

then a surveillance squad.

31:47

So, no, I did not have experience

31:49

in this sort of thing. my

31:51

background was not in child behavior

31:54

or psychology or anything

31:56

like that. So there was some trauma

31:59

involved in it. I pose. But, you know,

32:01

really, how could you have any kind

32:03

of training for that sort of investigation,

32:06

really? It's so out of

32:08

the mainstream of the sorts of things

32:10

that we might work. Of course, now

32:12

in the bigger offices, there are entire

32:14

squads that are dedicated to

32:17

child pornography. and investigating those

32:19

sorts of crimes. But no, I personally

32:21

did not have any background in it.

32:23

So that really highlights the

32:25

importance of somebody assigned

32:28

to a resident agency, an

32:30

RA, having some type of experience

32:33

and law enforcement before they

32:35

get that type of assignment because they

32:38

have no idea what they're gonna be working.

32:39

That's exactly right. And I think

32:42

they key to it also is just the cooperation

32:44

between local law enforcement and

32:46

the FBI and these smaller As.

32:49

Because you geographically removed

32:51

from the field office. You don't have

32:54

a support network. I mean, if something

32:56

happens, you know, it's gonna take a while

32:58

for other agents to get there. And

33:00

so there has to be that willingness

33:03

and that openness to work with local

33:05

law enforcement agencies And

33:07

at that time, I was young. I came

33:10

into the bureau pretty young. And

33:12

even though I did have a few years of

33:14

police experience. I did not have a lot

33:16

of FBI experience.

33:18

There was, I think, a little

33:19

bit of reluctance, I think,

33:21

at first, to send me to that

33:24

small of an RA,

33:25

and it was a position I requested. I

33:27

wanted to move there.

33:28

And if it wasn't a reason?

33:30

Did I wanted to move there? I had become

33:32

engaged at that time and my son

33:34

to be husband was living in Saint Louis

33:37

and Jefferson City was closer

33:39

to Saint Louis. It was purely

33:40

personal reasons.

33:41

But I also really thought I would like

33:43

the work in small array. I really

33:45

did. I've really thought, you know, I'd like to be

33:47

down there, work with local law enforcement, get

33:50

a wide variety of experience. So

33:52

it was, first and foremost, a personal

33:54

decision initially, but it was something I

33:56

really want it to do as well. And I

33:58

think as it turned out that it

34:00

did work out very well. I think I did

34:02

get along very well with the local law enforcement

34:05

and we had very good relationships and

34:07

it was a very successful part

34:09

of my career. And it's one that I'm glad

34:12

I was able to get that wide variety

34:14

of experience. It's very possible

34:16

to spend your whole

34:17

career working on one squad

34:19

or working with one special

34:20

team. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

34:23

But for me, I was glad to

34:25

have that variety.

34:26

And I guess also in talking

34:28

about your experience really highlights the

34:31

fact that the misconception and

34:33

cliche that the FBI doesn't

34:35

work well with others is indeed

34:37

a misconception or a myth. because

34:40

when it comes to working in r a's,

34:43

it is absolutely crucial

34:45

and necessary for the

34:47

FBI to rely on

34:49

the assistance of their

34:51

local partners.

34:52

Absolutely. And I

34:54

think it is one of the myths that I

34:56

am always happy to correct.

34:59

Somebody will say, oh, we hear this

35:01

or what's the biggest misconception about

35:03

the that we see on TV that's really

35:05

not true. That's what I'll go to. I'll say,

35:07

I don't like it when it's portrayed in movies

35:10

or TV or whatever. that it's like, okay,

35:12

here's the FBI step aside. Because

35:14

I don't feel like it's that at all. And I

35:16

believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Jerry, you point

35:18

that out in your book as well. there

35:20

is that misconception.

35:22

Oh, yeah. It's my number two --

35:24

Mhmm. -- myth. Number one

35:26

being that FBI profilers are

35:28

chasing down serial killers. But

35:32

but number two, there Come on.

35:34

Yeah. It was like it's struggle

35:36

to decide which one was number one. But

35:38

but because of so many movies and the fact

35:40

that serial killer books

35:42

are their own genre that I had to

35:44

choose that as number one, but close behind

35:47

that one was number two, which is that the

35:49

FBI doesn't play well with others.

35:51

Right. For sure. for

35:52

sure. We will continue to bust

35:54

that myth. There

35:56

was a tragedy there in Moneta County

35:58

and and it stuck with me too

35:59

all these years because I had worked with these

36:02

long personal officers so closely

36:03

and they were so helpful

36:06

and so professional and so

36:08

appreciative of having the FBI's

36:11

assistance and resources in this

36:13

particular case. I'll just sort of

36:15

give you the synopsis of what happened,

36:17

the strategy there in Monterrey County. There

36:19

was a domestic disturbance call

36:22

and a Monter County

36:24

deputy who I knew, of course, through

36:26

this investigation, was dispatched

36:28

to the scene, and he was

36:30

shot and later died.

36:33

The subject, his name was James Johnson,

36:35

Escape, left the scene. he then

36:37

went to sheriff Kenny's house,

36:40

who was not home, the sheriff was

36:42

stopped responding to this officer down

36:44

situation. And Johnson shot

36:46

through the window of sheriff Kenny's mom

36:48

and killed his wife who was conducting

36:51

a church

36:52

meeting.

36:53

Johnson then continued his

36:55

rampage. He went back to the sheriff's

36:57

department where law enforcement officers

37:00

from different agencies were gathering

37:02

to start this manhunt

37:04

to process crime scenes, etcetera.

37:06

And

37:07

he shot two more

37:09

officers there and killed

37:11

them. And then he again

37:14

fled. He went to another

37:16

Japanese home, Stephanie Russ,

37:19

who you may remember I at the beginning

37:21

of our talk, I had referred to him as

37:23

he was one of the lead investigator on the pornography

37:26

case. He went to Russ's home and shot

37:28

him just as he Russ was getting

37:30

home from responding to the other calls.

37:33

He fortunately survived. Johnson

37:35

was eventually apprehended and

37:37

then about a decade later was executed

37:40

by the state of Missouri. That

37:42

was such a tragic chapter for

37:45

this department That

37:47

must have been. Were you still in

37:49

the area at the time or had you

37:51

transferred to Detroit?

37:52

I had transferred to Detroit, but

37:54

I was still in contact sporadically

37:57

with these folks that had not been transferred

37:59

long when the incident happened. I think

38:02

that I looked back some articles in the incident

38:04

happened in December, and I had

38:06

gone to Detroit in the spring

38:08

of that year. So it was few to several

38:10

months later after. What was

38:12

the shooter's beef? I

38:14

mean, he seemed to know these

38:17

deputies and where they'd lived.

38:18

Yeah. Well, you know, he didn't

38:20

he was former military. He

38:22

had weapons. He was

38:25

burst in the use of weapons. He did

38:27

not have a criminal history other

38:29

than he had had some domestic disputes.

38:31

in the past. You have to remember, Jerry,

38:33

this is a very small town where

38:35

it would not have been uncommon for most people

38:38

to know where the sheriff lived.

38:40

it wouldn't have been uncommon to know

38:42

where deputies live. They would probably have had

38:44

their cars parked in front of their houses.

38:47

So I don't think that it was hard

38:49

to find them. I think his motive

38:51

was strictly rage, strictly

38:54

violence, that he was just a very

38:56

violent person who was

38:58

obviously upset that the police had

39:01

come to his house and responded to this

39:03

domestic disturbance call, and he

39:05

took his vengeance.

39:06

Well, it's just a very sad

39:08

commentary about policing.

39:11

And this happened years

39:14

ago,

39:14

Yeah. It really was such a tragedy.

39:16

And I know it doesn't have anything to do with the

39:18

case, but

39:19

I think it's just one reason why that

39:21

case had stayed with me all these years because

39:23

I Those people were such good

39:26

lays on such good counterparts. And,

39:29

yeah, it is a commentary on how

39:31

difficult and how dangerous

39:34

the local policing is.

39:36

And the fact that two

39:38

of the officers that were killed weren't

39:41

from that particular agency, they had

39:43

responded. As of course, deputy

39:45

down, officers were coming in from

39:47

agencies surrounding the area.

39:50

that's what you do, you respond, and

39:52

then before the investigation can

39:54

even start, bang, two more.

39:56

And those were the two that were at

39:58

at

39:58

the sheriff's department, which

39:59

the sheriff's department is also the jail.

40:02

I mean, it's a local courthouse sheriff's

40:04

department jail, sort of everything. All they're

40:06

right there in the want. definitely

40:08

a tragic tragic

40:10

incident. Very sad. It just

40:12

kinda leaves me like, I don't know

40:14

what to say. Yeah.

40:15

I mean, it really is it's not one

40:18

of your more uplifting episodes,

40:20

I'm sure. But law enforcement is

40:23

that's the nature of it.

40:25

Right? I mean, there are some positive days

40:27

when we feel like we're keeping the

40:29

wheels of justice turning and where there

40:32

is gratitude from victims, but

40:34

their these greedy details are

40:36

really not very pleasant. And

40:39

can really haunt you for a

40:41

long time. Alright.

40:44

I think it's

40:44

time now that we learn

40:47

a little bit more about you. Now I did read

40:49

your Bio at the beginning, so listeners

40:51

know a little bit about you, but they

40:53

don't know why and when you

40:55

join the FBI. So could you tell

40:58

us more about what made you interested

41:00

in becoming an FBI agent? Well,

41:02

you know, I had been interested in it for

41:04

a

41:04

long time even as a child.

41:06

I watched TV shows about it

41:09

or even when I was in high school

41:11

and you're assigned to do a term paper,

41:13

I would do it about the FBI and It

41:15

was something I never really thought

41:18

that I would be able to pursue because

41:20

I came up in the seventies. and there

41:22

weren't FBI agents that looked like

41:24

me. In fact, women agents didn't come

41:27

in until seventy two or seventy

41:29

three, and then they were few and far between.

41:31

during that decade. But when I went to college,

41:33

I decided to study criminal justice,

41:35

and I thought, well, if I can't be an FBI

41:37

agent, I'll still work in the criminal justice

41:40

field. that's what interests me.

41:42

I was in a class and an FBI

41:44

agent came and spoke to our

41:46

class. This would have been in nineteen

41:49

teen eighty, maybe. He was very

41:51

informative

41:52

and he says,

41:53

yeah, we're hiring. And

41:55

here's what the basic qualifications are.

41:58

And I went up to him

41:59

after the class and talked

42:02

to him one on one and said, hey, you know,

42:04

this has always been sort of in the back in

42:06

my mind, but I really don't know if I

42:08

can do that. I'm physically a very small person.

42:11

He was very, very helpful, very

42:13

encouraging. and gave

42:16

me some specific information

42:18

on how to pursue that path.

42:20

I think it was literally the next

42:23

day. I went to the Huntsville Police

42:25

Department and applied

42:27

for a job as a police officer

42:29

because by that time

42:31

I had learned that one of

42:33

the paths to become an FBI agent

42:35

was to get some practical experience.

42:38

And so I thought, while I'm in college, I'll try

42:40

to get a job as a police officer and then

42:42

go from there. That's what happened. I worked as

42:44

a police officer while I finished up

42:46

my degree and when I finished my agree

42:49

by that time I had four years or so

42:51

as a police officer and applied

42:53

to the FBI that was in nineteen

42:55

eighty five. Well,

42:57

you told us about the different offices

43:00

that you were assigned to, but

43:02

what was your primary specialization?

43:04

Or or did you have one?

43:06

I was on several different squads until

43:08

nine eleven happened. And then, as

43:10

you know, Jerry, and probably most of your listeners

43:13

know, the bureau changed. from

43:15

nine

43:15

eleven on, I worked strictly counter

43:17

terrorism. When nine eleven happened, of course,

43:19

that was in two thousand one, was about midway

43:22

through my career. I would classify the

43:24

first half of my career

43:25

as sort of general

43:27

criminal, and then the second

43:29

half as counterterrorism. And I

43:31

was in Nashville. By that time, I was in the

43:33

Nashville Rosen Agency RA.

43:35

That was also the Memphis division, which

43:37

Nashville RA reports to Memphis crisis

43:40

negotiations coordinator. While we

43:42

call that a collateral duty,

43:43

it was still a very important part of my career

43:46

and required a lot of teaching

43:48

and travel

43:48

and that's of thing. I would say that

43:51

those two things, counterterrorism and

43:53

negotiations were my areas

43:56

of specialty, particularly in

43:58

the latter half of my career.

43:59

When did you retire? And

44:02

what are you doing now?

44:03

I retired in twenty fourteen. I

44:05

had been eligible for a few years.

44:08

As you know, agents are eligible at

44:10

age fifty if they have enough years

44:12

of service in. I became eligible

44:14

at the age of fifty I thought about it for

44:16

a couple years and wasn't quite ready.

44:19

And then as I approached my mid fifties,

44:21

my eyesight wasn't getting any better.

44:23

I didn't feel like I was keeping up with the technology.

44:26

I felt like there were signs

44:29

that it was time to go.

44:31

I decided to retire in twenty fourteen.

44:34

At that time, I had taken up

44:36

hiking as a hobby in my late

44:38

forties. Often went on weekend

44:41

weeklong backpacking hiking

44:43

trips. But because of my career

44:46

and because I was still raising

44:48

family at that time, those

44:49

trips were a fairly short

44:52

duration. Once I retired, I

44:54

said, okay, now I'm retired. I can

44:56

take this hobby of backpacking. and

44:59

extend it to fulfilling

45:01

this dream ahead of completing

45:03

the Appalachian Trail. That's what I did.

45:05

Once I retired, I took longer and longer

45:07

trips of longer and longer duration

45:09

and height the Appalachian Trail.

45:12

And I finished that in twenty seventeen,

45:14

all in all took me thirteen years to finish

45:17

the Appalachian Trail. And once I finished

45:19

it in twenty seventeen, I thought,

45:21

well, what's my next project gonna be?

45:24

I decided to write a book

45:26

regarding my thirteen year

45:28

odyssey on the AT. That

45:30

was my project for the next year

45:32

and a half or so. getting the book published

45:35

was the next project because as you know,

45:37

writing a book and getting it published for two different

45:39

things altogether. That is how I have

45:41

spent my retirement years

45:43

up to now. And the book, I'll just briefly

45:46

say, is not just about hiking the eighteen

45:48

because I was hiking while I was still

45:50

working. And so there is this,

45:52

I hope, narrative about the

45:54

balance of career and

45:57

family and hobby, which in my

45:59

case was hiking and how

46:01

all of that sort of came together

46:03

to work for me anyway.

46:05

Absolutely fascinating. The book again

46:08

is called sticks and stones,

46:10

how to hike the Appalachian trail

46:12

in thirteen years. And I've had a chance

46:15

to read it when I was First reading

46:17

it, I did think about the fact

46:19

that during your career

46:21

and during the time that you were raising a family,

46:24

that you would physically leave

46:26

and do these trails. And

46:29

I thought about how that was

46:31

as a mother. And then I compared it

46:34

to me trying to write books

46:36

and to dedicate my time

46:38

in being at least mentally

46:41

away where I would ask people,

46:43

you know, don't bother me, don't talk to me.

46:45

Let me sit down and write my book, and I

46:47

could see that there is similar path

46:49

as a mother and as an

46:51

agent and as a wife wanting to

46:53

have that time where you can pursue

46:56

your own personal dreams and

46:58

goals, and I could relate.

47:00

Well, absolutely. And I think that

47:03

cross is all filled, whatever your

47:05

career is.

47:06

it's important to have that sense

47:08

of separation to some degree,

47:11

and how it all works well together.

47:13

I mean, I think that the fact that I was

47:15

able to sort of do my own things

47:17

from time to time made me a better wife

47:19

and mother and made me a better agent.

47:21

because I could come back and be more refreshed

47:24

and more engaged with what was going

47:26

on immediately and focus. And

47:28

then after all, say, oh, okay. few

47:30

weeks, go by, few months, I need to get away

47:32

again. I can't say enough to people

47:35

how important that is, to prevent

47:37

burnout, to prevent stagnation, to

47:40

come back and to have a fresh view

47:42

of things.

47:43

I look at as that tripod

47:44

approach. You need all three legs.

47:46

Right? to be sort of

47:49

wholly balanced, I guess. At least

47:51

that's the way it worked for me.

47:52

And your three legs, your tripod would

47:55

consist of

47:56

career, family, and hiking.

47:58

And I think what people need to know

47:59

when we're talking about the book and

48:02

your hiking. is that

48:04

a lot of times you did this with other

48:06

women friends, especially other

48:08

female agents, but most of the

48:10

time or many of the times you went out

48:12

solo for days and

48:15

weeks just walking the trail

48:17

by yourself, meeting people along the

48:19

way. There were times reading the book

48:21

where there was danger, that

48:23

danger coming from the elements, from

48:25

the weather or the complexity

48:28

of the trail And I think to myself,

48:30

oh my god, she was out there by

48:33

herself if something were to happen.

48:35

The only way that people would know

48:37

that is that you did not make

48:39

those check-in calls when you got

48:41

to a place where you had phone service.

48:43

Right. Yeah. Most of the time I was

48:45

so long, particularly the last several years

48:47

because the further and further I got up the trail,

48:50

the further it was from my home. So it

48:52

required travel, I'd take off work

48:54

for longer. And a lot of my friends, most of my

48:56

friends were still working or still

48:58

had children at home, and they couldn't get

49:00

away for the long periods of time. So,

49:02

yeah, I was by myself a lot of the

49:04

time. And there was danger. You know, I don't

49:06

wanna minimize the Appalachian Trail,

49:09

the challenge that it is. It is not

49:11

an easy trail. there was danger

49:13

from and she correctly pointed out mostly

49:15

from the elements. Although most

49:17

people seem to feel like when they questioned

49:19

me about it, like, they assume that

49:22

I would be more afraid of being

49:24

alone and meeting other people and the dangers

49:26

that come from other people. that was

49:28

not the case. The dangers come from

49:31

the elements, which is again not to say

49:33

that there aren't crazy people out there as we

49:35

all know, but that was never really a

49:37

concern of mine. But for many women,

49:39

unfortunately, it is. They're more

49:41

afraid of

49:42

Getting murdered Oh, exactly. That's

49:45

the

49:46

chances of that happening

49:49

are so minuscule, but that

49:51

is a fear that keeps us from doing these

49:53

things that we wanna do. And not to minimize

49:55

and not to say that we shouldn't be cautious and we

49:57

shouldn't use common sense and all of those things,

49:59

but that is what stops people,

50:02

I think, so many times, particularly women

50:04

from doing what they wanna do and

50:06

they think, oh, wow. That sounds really cool and

50:08

really good idea. But I don't think I could sleep

50:10

alone in a tent on the trail.

50:12

Now you say that, and I asked you

50:14

a question, when you were doing it, when

50:16

you were going out there by yourself, again

50:19

for weeks at a time, you

50:21

probably thought, yeah, you know, this

50:23

is cool. I can handle it. But

50:25

my question to you is when your daughter

50:27

when she took up

50:30

the hobby and she started

50:32

backpacking solo. What

50:34

were

50:34

your thoughts then? You

50:36

know, that's a really good point. Yeah.

50:38

Then I had those thoughts. Right? What have

50:41

had why don't you get murdered? Why don't you get sleep alone

50:43

in a town on the trail? Which was, of course,

50:45

all the things that I had done. But, yeah,

50:47

we were very

50:47

nervous for it.

50:48

But I suppose when it's your child and there's

50:51

that sense of

50:51

mother bear protection, you know,

50:53

coming in. But I suppose, you know,

50:55

on hindsight, I have no one but myself

50:57

to blame.

50:58

We're doing those crazy things.

51:00

Absolutely. But definitely,

51:03

your independence and your

51:06

courageousness is something that

51:08

you passed on along to your daughter

51:10

and that's absolutely fantastic. Well,

51:13

thank you. And I think it was just one of

51:15

those unintended consequences or one

51:17

of the unintended benefits. I don't

51:19

think I set out to say, oh, watch

51:21

this and you be this or you following

51:23

my footsteps. Maybe we do that

51:25

all along anyway, unconsciously. Whatever

51:28

we choose to do as a career or

51:30

as a hobby is that we are

51:32

setting an example and

51:33

we are being role models whether

51:35

we realize it or not. maybe

51:37

it's important to remind ourselves of that

51:39

from time to time so that we continue to

51:42

be positive role models.

51:43

Absolutely. And was this book

51:45

from journals that you kept along

51:48

the way? I really didn't keep journals.

51:50

I kept

51:51

some notes. I kept

51:53

all my maps. I took a lot of photographs.

51:56

I was able to sort of reconstruct it chronologically

51:59

using my maps and photographs and

52:01

the notes of particular days I went

52:03

who was with me on those particular days.

52:05

then I could just sort of recreate it from

52:07

there. I wish I had journaled more,

52:09

and I advised people now to do

52:12

that. I wish I had journaled more as an

52:14

FBI agent. I just think whatever

52:16

your fill is, whatever your path

52:18

and life is, to be able to

52:21

reconstruct that later on, is

52:23

a gift. And I felt like writing a book

52:25

was a gift to me because I could

52:28

relive it. I did recreate it. from

52:30

my own personal enjoyment.

52:32

It was almost more fun doing it the second

52:34

time. I could do it from the comfort of my

52:36

own home.

52:37

O'Verica, the book again, and

52:39

I highly recommend it, is sticks

52:41

and stones how to hike the Appalachian

52:44

Trail in thirteen years. And

52:46

throughout it, it's not a book about your

52:48

FBI career. It is a book

52:50

solely about hiking the trail,

52:52

but there are little tidbits here and

52:55

there about where you were in your

52:57

career and the times that

52:59

you had to take off in order

53:01

to complete this journey. and

53:03

I will put it into my

53:05

FBI reading resource list

53:08

of books by FBI agents

53:11

usually more about the FBI, but

53:13

I'll include it there for anyone who

53:16

would be interested in reading it. And of

53:18

course, I will have a

53:20

link to where it can be purchased in

53:22

the show notes for this episode

53:25

on my website jerrywilliams dot

53:27

com. Thank you, Jerry, very much for

53:29

having me. Diane Styx

53:31

Harsha. So what does the Styx

53:34

stand for?

53:35

I know you know because you've read the book.

53:37

But if your listeners wanna know, I guess you're gonna

53:39

have to read the book. And

53:41

so we have one last thing to do,

53:43

and that is I like to give my guest

53:45

the very last word. So

53:48

what would you like to say? Well, I

53:50

guess I

53:50

would say as the last word

53:52

or as the last takeaway for your

53:55

listeners is that as this

53:57

case demonstrates, there's a

53:59

lot of

54:00

messed up things out there in the world

54:02

and unfortunately, we in

54:04

our careers do see the

54:07

underbelly, so to speak. But

54:09

we have to always put that aside

54:11

with the the good things too,

54:14

which was that, again, in this particular

54:16

case, the cooperation with the local

54:18

law enforcement and the

54:21

knowledge that the wheels of justice

54:23

do turn and things do get done

54:25

and that even

54:26

though the tragedies and the hard times.

54:29

It's sort of like hiking. There's the elements.

54:31

There's the cold weather. There's a dangerous winds.

54:34

There's the lonely nights. but there's also

54:36

the beauty of the trail itself. That's

54:39

what I would like to impart is

54:41

that we take the good along

54:44

with the bad and along with the very,

54:46

very ugly.

54:49

And that's the

54:50

end of the interview. And your podcast

54:52

apps to script of this episode,

54:55

you'll find a link to jerrywilliams dot

54:58

com, where you'll find a photo of

55:00

Diane Harsha some articles

55:02

and documents related to the case

55:05

review and a link to where you

55:07

can purchase her book. sticks

55:09

and stones how to

55:11

hike the Appalachian Trail in

55:13

thirteen years. You'll also

55:15

find links to other FBI retired

55:17

case file review episodes featuring

55:20

crimes against children investigations.

55:23

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55:26

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55:28

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55:41

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56:40

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56:42

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56:45

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56:47

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56:49

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