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1:01

Do you ever have a story that

1:03

you just can't help Well, we just

1:05

couldn't help ourselves. an We couldn't

1:07

wait an entire week to

1:10

give you an update on United

1:12

Health Care hit. So a a

1:14

edition, part part on

1:16

The murder of of Brian

1:18

Thompson. Do you ever have a

1:20

You ever have a story that you just can't

1:22

get out of your head? head? One that

1:25

that you play the details

1:27

of over and over with

1:29

your friends. friends? Well, you've come

1:31

to the right place. right I'm

1:33

I'm Claire. And I'm Susan. And

1:35

this is Justice Pending. A weekly

1:37

true crime podcast where we

1:39

discuss tantalizing crimes with more

1:41

questions and answers. Thanks

1:43

for joining us. and answers. Thanks

1:45

for joining right, we're

1:48

back at it. at it.

1:50

Here we we are, part two. That's

1:52

right, part two, we've got. day

1:54

three of the manhunt

1:56

underway. Yeah, it's

1:59

It's been crazy. I actually, I have to

2:01

correct myself of something I said yesterday

2:03

that his hostel was in Washington Heights.

2:06

It turns out it's not that far

2:08

up. It was only on 104th Street.

2:10

So a little lower down and more

2:13

upper west side. Yeah, actually very close

2:15

to Columbia University. So, you know, he

2:17

would have blended right in actually in

2:20

the area. Interesting, yeah, and you know,

2:22

the hostile crowd is always transient, nomadic,

2:24

the idea that he would stay there

2:26

for 10 days, check out, come back

2:29

the next day, that's just kind of

2:31

par for the course when you're living

2:33

out of a suitcase, you know, no

2:36

one's really looking twice. If he'd been

2:38

staying in a traditional hotel, he might

2:40

have stood out, but there, he was

2:43

just one of one of many people

2:45

living that kind of... nomadic

2:48

lifestyle. Yeah, and I think we

2:50

have the front desk woman to

2:52

thank for our pure uncovered face

2:54

visual now. Apparently she was flirting

2:57

with him or he was flirting

2:59

with her, I don't know, whatever

3:01

the case was. And that's the

3:03

only time he ever took down

3:05

the mask. And so, I mean,

3:07

got it to hormones. I think

3:09

that's wonderful. Thank God she did

3:12

that or whatever. divine intervention that

3:14

told her to have him ask

3:16

him to bring his mask down.

3:18

That was pretty great. Yeah, you

3:20

know, it was interesting to me

3:22

just because he used a fake

3:25

ID, right? A fake New Jersey

3:27

ID. This has come up to

3:29

check into the hostile. A lot

3:31

of times they will ask you

3:33

to show your face to compare

3:35

it to the ID. So I

3:37

think it's very plausible that that

3:40

was just part of her normal

3:42

check-in process. But the fact that

3:44

he flashed this big smile and

3:46

we really seem to see him

3:48

in an unguarded moment, that was

3:50

very interesting in the idea that

3:53

this is probably an expression he

3:55

makes all the time. So hopefully

3:57

someone's going to recognize that and

3:59

say, you know, I haven't seen

4:01

my. since Thanksgiving. And he kind

4:03

of looks like that smiling guy

4:05

in this New York hostel. So

4:08

I guess we'll see how valuable

4:10

that image turns out to be,

4:12

but it definitely is much clearer

4:14

than anything that had come up

4:16

before in Starbucks or on the

4:18

street. Yeah, and I

4:20

saw a really interesting take yesterday

4:23

from Chris Cuomo on News Nation,

4:25

a little segment of his that

4:27

said, you know, on one hand,

4:29

it's interesting because you see him

4:31

behaving very normally, you're smiling, you're

4:33

interacting with people, there's no indication

4:35

that this guy is abnormal. And

4:37

yet he went on to do

4:39

a very abnormal thing. And so

4:41

it's interesting because you think about

4:43

the psychology of this person and

4:45

he is in New York City

4:48

for 10 days doing reconnaissance or

4:50

stalking or whatever you want to

4:52

call it. He's eating McDonald's, he's

4:54

taking cabs, he's walking the streets

4:56

and he's interacting with Starbucks, baristas

4:58

and all these very normal things

5:00

that don't suggest. someone who's sort

5:02

of hiding out or being antisocial.

5:04

I mean, he's sharing a room

5:06

with two people. It's very normal

5:08

things. And then he does his,

5:10

you know, Chris Cuomo, I'll quote

5:12

him. He's a very, did a

5:15

very abnormal thing. And so the

5:17

psychology here is very interesting to

5:19

think about how he was attempting

5:21

to live off the grid with

5:23

cash and covering the face. And

5:25

then he has this moment of

5:27

either weakness or he can't hide

5:29

it because he's being asked to

5:31

identify himself in a, you know,

5:33

in a check-in process, whatever it

5:35

is. It's just so fascinating that

5:37

he must have known he was

5:40

on surveillance cameras everywhere. He must

5:42

have thought he could outsmart the

5:44

system or maybe he wants to

5:46

get caught and he did it

5:48

on this very national stage. I

5:50

mean, things that go on in

5:52

New York City are, I mean,

5:54

city. You're going to be recorded

5:56

everywhere. I don't think there's a,

5:58

except for the park, which he

6:00

must have known there were fewer

6:02

cameras in the park, which I

6:04

also think is interesting, that he

6:07

would have, I mean, you can't

6:09

hide forever in New York. And

6:11

it's such a public stage that

6:13

city. So it's interesting that he

6:15

even did something like this in

6:17

New York City versus where Brian

6:19

Thompson's from. Like he didn't, he

6:21

could have gone to his house.

6:23

Seems like he traveled here, which,

6:25

you know, we can talk about

6:27

next, but it seems like he

6:29

took the trouble to travel. So

6:32

why travel to New York versus

6:34

travel to his home? Well, sometimes,

6:36

you know, hiding in plain sight

6:38

is the easiest place and in

6:40

a city with so many, the

6:42

hustle and hustle and bustle. You

6:44

talked about how New Yorkers cannot

6:46

be bothered to stop for a

6:48

gunshot. They keep on, keep it

6:50

on. So that would probably attract

6:52

a lot more attention in Minnesota

6:54

than it would here in New

6:57

York City. So, you know, and

6:59

something else you talked about the

7:01

psychology of it and how he

7:03

seemed so normal in these different

7:05

settings, I think compartmentalization definitely comes

7:07

into play. and you think about

7:09

soldiers who go into war and

7:11

they're doing very abnormal things fighting

7:13

for their lives killing other people

7:15

as part of their job and

7:17

then they go on leave they

7:19

go out to the bar they

7:21

go to with the movies they

7:24

you know have to let off

7:26

some steam somehow and You know,

7:28

he is at the same time

7:30

unusual in the same time human

7:32

being. So he's going to have

7:34

those moments of weakness, those moments

7:36

of normalcy, even in the midst

7:38

of planning and committing this horrific

7:40

crime. And I want to talk

7:42

about how long I want to

7:44

talk about a lot of things,

7:46

but number one, I want to

7:49

talk about how people have come

7:51

out saying they don't think that

7:53

it's a hit. They don't think

7:55

that he was paid to do

7:57

this. This is in the New

7:59

York Times. experts quoted saying he

8:01

doesn't have the marks of a professional of

8:03

a and you don't know how hard

8:05

it is to find a professional hitman it

8:07

is to the a it's not that hard Number

8:10

actually not very hard on the dark

8:12

web to find someone to do all

8:14

sorts of awful things hard on the dark we're

8:16

not suggesting anyone go there to do all

8:18

course not but number two Number two,

8:20

he is not necessarily a professional

8:23

hitman. You don't have to have

8:25

done it before have done do it

8:27

professionally and get paid. I mean,

8:29

I think there's just a different. just

8:31

a know, determination if you're categorizing

8:33

as a professional hitman as though

8:35

this is his only job, as

8:37

though this is when he does only

8:39

job as though days a year. I

8:42

don't think there's anyone like that outside

8:44

of the, you know, Hollywood, the,

8:46

but I do think that that

8:48

in my opinion it seems like

8:51

he is he is not acting alone.

8:53

I I don't see this as a

8:55

lone wolf operation for a number

8:57

of reasons. Number one, he's there for

8:59

10 days. he's there think that he that

9:01

he is likely on someone else's dime while

9:03

he's there for that long, long. What

9:05

kind of job would he have

9:07

where he would take a a

9:10

leave from it? from it? and

9:12

not be missed, missed, not

9:14

be that that income. it

9:16

It seems unlikely to me, me it's

9:18

possible, but... To me, the

9:21

signs point to, point to he was

9:23

paid to be there. I think the fact

9:25

that he had this burner phone, we now

9:27

know it is a burner a phone, cell phone, and

9:29

he he makes a phone call. Almost

9:31

is immediately after the shooting. He

9:34

makes a phone call. Who are

9:36

you calling on your burner

9:38

cell phone cell you've just assassinated

9:40

the CEO of of United the person who

9:42

paid you to do it. who paid you he calling

9:44

a friend to make weekend plans?

9:46

No, he's calling someone to confirm

9:48

that the hit has gone through.

9:50

that I has really see. really see...

9:53

another explanation for that phone call

9:55

phone call unless we're not not talking about

9:57

payment and money unless we're

9:59

talking about You know, he did

10:01

this as a personal favor, as

10:03

a vendetta, to someone, you know,

10:05

this is somehow payback, that could

10:07

be involved. But the idea that

10:09

he had this burner phone, he

10:11

makes a phone call directly after

10:13

the shooting, you know, I covered

10:15

several hitman sting operations when I

10:17

worked for 48 hours, and, you

10:19

know, we would go in there

10:21

with the agency that was posing

10:23

as a hit man. And what

10:25

was interesting, I really enjoyed working

10:27

these cases because no one actually

10:29

died. So it was a nice

10:31

change of pace from the normal

10:33

48 hours episode where death is

10:35

just the beginning. And so in

10:37

these cases, the police officer, FBI

10:39

agent, sheriff's deputy, whoever it might

10:41

be, posing as the hit man,

10:43

one of the number one things

10:45

they have to do is get

10:47

confirmation to the person who paid

10:50

for the hit that it's gone

10:52

through. A lot of times it's

10:54

a photograph. And so they would

10:56

actually stage these photos, because the

10:58

person wouldn't have been killed, but

11:00

they would have to do makeup.

11:02

It was really traumatic. Really intricate.

11:04

Wow. Yeah, stage their own death.

11:06

Sometimes they dug graves and they

11:08

had to lie in them. They

11:10

had to, yeah, pose in these

11:12

positions. Sometimes they were restrained. These

11:14

are details I think are not

11:16

fully covered in your book actually.

11:18

So that's interesting that the listener

11:20

is getting them now. I do

11:22

cover an undercover sting, a staged

11:24

hitman in my book, Killer Story,

11:26

the Truth Behind True Crime Television,

11:28

but I didn't go into this

11:30

level of detail. So you're right.

11:32

But what it reminded me of

11:34

is the fact that giving proof

11:36

that the deed has been done

11:38

is a key part of being

11:40

a hit man. And if you're

11:42

acting alone and you've just committed

11:44

murder on the streets of Midtown

11:46

Manhattan, I don't think you're calling

11:48

anyone to tell them about it.

11:50

I think you're just trying to

11:52

get the hell out of there.

11:54

And the fact that he made

11:56

this phone call and then deliberately

11:58

dropped this phone or haphazardly. You

12:00

know, I talked about how slick

12:03

he was in our first episode

12:05

with handling the gun and the

12:07

jam and making sure that, you

12:09

know, the target was down and

12:11

I thought he was too slick

12:13

to have dropped his cell phone.

12:15

But now, now that we know

12:17

some other things, you know, we

12:19

know that the bullets were not

12:21

etched. They were not in great.

12:23

They were just written in Sharpie.

12:25

I was like, okay, all right,

12:27

maybe this guy did drop his

12:29

cell phone. Maybe he did take

12:31

a sip out of that water

12:33

bottle. It sounds like they have

12:35

DNA that they're running. I think

12:37

it was from a print and

12:39

I hope they do get a

12:41

hit. I will tell you from

12:43

personal experience. I had to get

12:45

fingerprinted pretty recently for something and

12:47

it took me four times going

12:49

in to get my prince. to

12:51

take. So, you know, and when

12:53

I was speaking with the person

12:55

doing the prince and everything, she's

12:57

like, you know, well, yeah, it's

12:59

actually less common, it's actually more

13:01

common than you think for people's

13:03

prints not to work. So

13:06

I doubt we'll get an identification off

13:08

of print. I do think if there's

13:10

some touch DNA that they could pull,

13:12

that would be the best scenario. The

13:15

water bottle, the fact that he actually

13:17

drank out of it, if it was

13:19

him, and we're going to have his

13:21

saliva, that's really the best because I

13:24

think I've already seen that the fingerprint

13:26

was smudged. and they haven't been able

13:28

to get a good read on that,

13:30

which like you said is really common.

13:32

And I've seen that, you know, in

13:35

the Damien Herd case, the very first

13:37

case that I did for final days

13:39

on earth, all the fingerprints in his

13:41

car were smudged. All the ones on

13:44

the steering wheel, on the dash, on

13:46

the door handle, they were all smudged.

13:48

And it was winter and it was

13:50

Colorado and there were gloves so that

13:52

right people have wondered if that is

13:55

because some people tried to wipe down

13:57

the car. You know, there's there's definitely

13:59

I think the water bottle in this

14:01

case. fact that it's a smudge, it's

14:04

just a smudge. You know, it wasn't,

14:06

it wasn't anything he probably could have

14:08

controlled. We know he wasn't wearing gloves

14:10

at least in Starbucks and when he

14:13

fired the weapon. So odds are he

14:15

wasn't wearing them when he drank out

14:17

of that water bottle. If indeed it

14:19

is his water bottle, because as I

14:21

posited in the last episode, I think

14:24

it would have been very smart if

14:26

he had picked up someone else's water

14:28

bottle to drop in that alley, but

14:30

I guess we'll find out just how

14:33

smooth he was here shortly. I know,

14:35

you know, day three, they talked about

14:37

the first 48 hours being the most

14:39

critical in any crime to get it

14:41

solved, but it does sound like there's

14:44

a good deal of evidence for authorities

14:46

to go on. For the next 20

14:48

seconds, picture yourself in a small town.

14:50

Historic buildings, hip galleries, and a chairlift.

14:53

Right on Main Street. Smack in the

14:55

middle of town. Now picture yourself on

14:57

that chairlift. Crisps snowflakes and tall pines

14:59

gliding beneath your skis. And now you're

15:01

looking at that small town from the

15:04

top of the mountain. Hey, is that

15:06

a moose down there? If you can't

15:08

wait to find out, you're the mountain

15:10

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15:42

accessories. here. I am still

15:44

empuzzled by is they've been

15:46

able to retrace his steps

15:48

10 days prior right they

15:50

know he got on a

15:52

bus that where the bus

15:54

originated in Atlanta he boarded

15:56

somewhere between Atlanta and Washington

15:58

DC because there's that

16:01

he's in Washington DC. It was a Greyhound bus

16:03

that goes right into Port Authority and 42nd Street

16:05

on the west side. They have him coming off

16:07

the bus. They have him throughout the city. I

16:09

assume they know what happened to him after. Is

16:12

he still in the city? Has he left the

16:14

city? I've seen no reporting. I don't know if

16:16

you have about where he went after he returned

16:18

to that hostile. I mean, surely they have him

16:20

exiting. Yeah, I don't know. It does seem like

16:22

if they know where he went after that, they're

16:25

not sharing it. I think we have to talk

16:27

about the backpack again because the backpack is now

16:29

missing. It was not seen on his body whenever

16:31

he's exiting Central Park. So that's fascinating. Did he

16:33

ditch it in the park somewhere? Did he hand

16:35

it off to someone? If I'm trying to get

16:38

rid of something in New York City, personally, I'm

16:40

putting it in a dumpster. So I don't think

16:42

there are dumpsters in the park, so that doesn't

16:44

really add up, but I bet there are a

16:46

lot of dumpster diving cops in New York right

16:48

now because there's so much evidence that can easily

16:51

be cast aside. And I think. that that's got

16:53

to be one of the places that potentially this

16:55

backpack gets dumped, if not by him, by somebody

16:57

else. Agree. I mean, there are bodies of water.

16:59

I guess if you waited it down enough and

17:01

you could go dredge, you know, those ponds and

17:04

those lakes throughout. But then I have a problem

17:06

with the timing. So the timeline is pretty clear.

17:08

And you don't get up, you don't exit the

17:10

park at 77th Street and make your way to

17:12

a home surveillance camera on West 85th in that

17:14

amount of time without knowing exactly where you're going

17:17

to dump that backpack without knowing exactly how much

17:19

time you have to do what. Because that's, I

17:21

mean, it's over a mile, right? It's like 54th

17:23

to 85, it's two miles. So a little over

17:25

two miles. if you're cutting

17:27

through the park. And so

17:30

I know he was

17:32

on an e -bike, but

17:34

you would have had to

17:36

divert yourself, like you

17:38

would basically be dumping the

17:41

backpack in plain sight

17:43

on a main route within

17:45

the park. mean, to

17:47

go deep and find a

17:49

hiding spot, even to

17:51

get to one of those

17:54

bodies of water, mean,

17:56

you're kind of going off

17:58

course a bit and

18:00

you're, someone's going to see

18:02

someone hurling a backpack

18:04

into water or someone's going

18:07

to see they're going

18:09

to find when they're doing

18:11

that combing for the

18:13

backpack. So I even went

18:15

down a bit of

18:17

a rabbit hole in my

18:20

head of that was

18:22

such a unique looking outfit.

18:24

Are there two people?

18:26

Did he continue on with

18:28

the backpack? And someone

18:30

who looks just like him

18:33

on on a bike

18:35

would wearing the same thing,

18:37

wearing the same, because

18:39

that that 85th street camera

18:41

and 77th street cameras

18:43

don't, they're blurry. He's moving.

18:46

So if someone's in

18:48

the same outfit without the

18:50

backpack, is that just

18:52

a red herring? Is that

18:54

a dupe? Yeah,

18:56

could be, could be. I

18:59

think the backpack is a key

19:01

piece of evidence that they're

19:03

going to be combing New York

19:05

City for and looking in

19:07

all manner of places. I think

19:09

that's probably priority number one

19:11

in terms of evidence recovery that's

19:14

left. Okay, so let's talk

19:16

about a couple of things. Number

19:18

one, what's come up with

19:20

a lot of people is the

19:22

idea that Brian Thompson was

19:24

unaccompanied. He was alone at this

19:26

critical time when we know

19:28

that he had received threats. We

19:31

know that the meeting with

19:33

investors was public information. Why was

19:35

he not with security? What,

19:37

what do you think about the

19:39

fact that he was, was

19:41

alone? I don't know what to

19:43

make of it. Do we

19:46

know if he had a regular

19:48

security detail? I

19:50

don't know that. So I

19:52

think I'll read a comment from

19:54

one of our listeners, Elaine

19:56

sent a message and she said

19:59

645 was a very reasonable time for

20:01

the for the CEO to be out.

20:03

He was probably to show up to show up

20:05

at seven for the 8 a .m. production and

20:07

are quite the production and you wanna get

20:09

there before investors start to trickle in. they

20:12

I expect they had security for the

20:14

conference and I find it odd

20:16

he didn't have security getting there for

20:18

a controversial company in a public

20:20

event. event. I tend to I

20:22

tend to agree with her. that

20:24

this You know, the fact that

20:26

this was so close, he was staying

20:28

right across the street. So did have a

20:30

he did have a security detail, maybe

20:33

that security detail was sweeping

20:35

the conference room and wasn't with

20:37

him. with him. I mean, mean, there's

20:39

any number of of but it also, it

20:41

you know, he might have just felt

20:43

comfortable. felt comfortable walking feet,

20:45

not that, but but very close

20:48

distance across the street. the

20:50

street, that every single hotel in

20:52

New York has a has a door

20:54

has security. has has

20:56

cameras. he I mean, he wasn't going

20:58

to be alone on that street.

21:01

He was certainly walking alone, but if

21:03

you look at that video, there are

21:05

people running for cover. I mean, he's

21:07

not alone. And so he probably had

21:09

this very false sense of security, unfortunately. despite

21:13

the threats that he had

21:15

been receiving. Yes,

21:17

I I think you're right that he he was

21:19

in a in a moment where he

21:21

was completely not thinking about. his own

21:24

own safety. He seems like

21:26

he walking down the street walking down

21:28

the street. you know, sort of quickly, he

21:30

needed you know, getting to where you needed

21:32

to go it makes a lot know, I think it

21:34

makes a lot of sense that think wouldn't

21:36

think about having security just to go

21:38

from his hotel to the hotel across the

21:40

street. the street the conference, which

21:42

would have been heavily

21:44

guarded. guarded. So yeah, that that definitely. something

21:47

to consider. I know that there's

21:49

been an uptick in corporate security requests

21:51

since this happened, as

21:53

anyone might imagine, and another

21:55

major and another care provider

21:58

decided to do to do their remotely.

22:00

They're not coming to New

22:02

York City. to New York City. think

22:05

we'll see see more like that

22:07

on on decisions just in

22:09

the wake of this unbelievable. brazen,

22:12

targeted attack attack people

22:15

that normally felt safe. safe, you

22:17

know, know probably don't right now

22:19

now. Yeah, I mean, and the I mean,

22:21

and the other interesting thing he's also not,

22:23

also not, he doesn't appear to be

22:25

carrying anything. Brian Thompson, I mean. I mean, when

22:27

you see when you see him go

22:29

down, it's not like he drops a

22:31

or anything, which I also which I also

22:33

found interesting, he he just running to go

22:35

grab a cup of coffee at Starbucks,

22:37

that same Starbucks, and then was going

22:39

to return to prepare? mean, we just

22:41

don't know. just don't know. We don't know

22:43

what was going on. did find it interesting.

22:45

I don't know many executives that executives that wouldn't

22:48

have at least a least a laptop mean, I

22:50

mean, something, right? You're carrying a bag of

22:52

some kind of personal belonging, especially if you're

22:54

about to attend an investor meeting an you

22:56

are the main event, right? You're the CEO. You're

22:58

the CEO. Yeah, that's a a good

23:00

observation, and I think it

23:02

goes to your theory that he

23:04

was just running somewhere quickly. in

23:07

in running an air and in air and

23:09

doing something And and that's why he

23:11

was alone in that moment and

23:13

because the shooter had been observing

23:15

him, tracking him for a while.

23:18

for a while, that that probably was not

23:20

the first time that the shooter

23:22

laid eyes on eyes on but it was

23:24

the perfect moment to take him

23:26

down. And so I bet in the

23:28

10 days that he was in

23:30

New York and in the time and in

23:32

the you know, that he that he was making

23:34

his plans, he probably saw

23:36

Brian Thompson in a number

23:38

of different scenarios that weren't

23:41

right for the shooting. That's

23:43

something about professional killers that

23:45

they have the self they have

23:47

the to only take the

23:49

shot when it's perfect. and

23:52

to wait, it's not emotional for

23:54

them. for They aren't going after someone

23:56

that they are enraged when they

23:59

see them - they, you know, a lot

24:01

of times you see that with spousal

24:03

murders where it's very haphazard, it's messy,

24:05

it's done in a way where of

24:07

course they're going to get caught, and

24:10

it's because they have just, they see

24:12

red, it's the rage, but this is

24:14

more cool, calculated, not that there couldn't

24:16

be major anger behind it, but it

24:18

definitely seems like he was waiting for

24:20

the right moment and he found it.

24:22

Yeah, I mean you even see it

24:25

in the video when he's so calm.

24:27

I mean, that's the, to me, that

24:29

is the eeriest part of the video

24:31

is just how calm he is and

24:33

how he calmly watches the security guard

24:35

of the hotel or the doormant, whoever

24:38

he was, run away and he just

24:40

is nonplussed. He doesn't look around to

24:42

make sure no one's watching. He has

24:44

a task. He completes it. He calmly

24:46

goes. And you know that phone call

24:48

I know he was on the phone

24:51

I think before as well so I

24:53

do think it was that phone I

24:55

hope they can crack it and figure

24:57

out you know I'm sure it goes

24:59

to another burner phone I'm sure they

25:01

covered their tracks but it just goes

25:03

to show that you know that those

25:06

phone calls could have been the hey

25:08

I'm coming up the road get your

25:10

hoodie on that looks like mine because

25:12

you know like it really could have

25:14

been to anyone could have been to.

25:16

the payee could have been to you

25:19

know the person at work but you

25:21

know all of that you're right goes

25:23

to someone who's really just thought this

25:25

through I think

25:27

something else that's interesting that

25:30

has come to light is

25:32

that someone called in a

25:34

bomb threat in Minnesota shortly

25:37

after the shooting and it

25:39

was related to I believe

25:41

United Health Care's offices there

25:43

and so that made me

25:46

think of possibly a copycat,

25:48

you know, bandwagon sort of

25:50

thing. A lot of times

25:53

that's what bomb threats are.

25:55

It's not actually related. It's

25:57

people jumping on the terror

26:00

and wanting to just terrify people

26:03

and wanting to instill fear and

26:05

it's pretty easy to get on

26:07

the phone and claim that there's

26:09

a bomb in the building and

26:11

you know it happens at schools

26:13

it happened so many places but

26:16

that was something that stood out

26:18

to me as wow this is

26:20

really striking accord with a lot

26:22

of different people and I know

26:24

there's been a lot of talk

26:26

about how people are venting their

26:28

anger. about the health care industry,

26:31

about the denial of claims, about

26:33

their loved ones and themselves not

26:35

being able to get the level

26:37

of care that they need cancer,

26:39

surgeries, you know, things that are

26:41

life-threatening. And so a lot of

26:44

people have come out and not

26:46

felt compassion for Brian Thompson or

26:48

for his family and said that,

26:50

you know, they have a hard

26:52

time having sympathy for him even,

26:54

for being murdered, which is a

26:57

pretty extreme reaction. It is. It

26:59

is. I think we had someone

27:01

right in too, right? We had

27:03

another listener comment on that. We

27:05

did. While you're looking for that,

27:07

what I thought was interesting is

27:09

competitor health care like insurance companies

27:12

are using it as I would

27:14

say a come to Jesus moment

27:16

or like a PR moment even

27:18

if you want to call it

27:20

that. But yesterday Anthem Blue Cross

27:22

announced it was reversing a policy

27:25

to limit anesthesia coverage, which, first

27:27

of all, I can't believe they

27:29

would even have limiting anesthesia coverage.

27:31

Like, if you need anesthesia, you

27:33

kind of need anesthesia. And so

27:35

I thought that was interesting that

27:37

the first thing they did was

27:40

go on the defense or I

27:42

guess go on the offense and

27:44

reverse a policy. I'm sure many

27:46

people had no idea was even

27:48

in place for them to show,

27:50

okay, we're the good guy. It's

27:53

almost like, we're good. Leave us

27:55

alone. Don't threaten us. I think

27:57

this is an interesting moment too

27:59

for the whole industry. to reevaluate

28:01

their policies, to do it either

28:03

defensively, offensively, whatever you want to

28:05

call it. But the first thing

28:08

I saw in this was not,

28:10

we're so sorry, it was like,

28:12

okay, but wait, we're going to

28:14

reverse our policies, everyone leave us

28:16

alone. It's almost like negotiating with

28:18

terrorists in a way, though. I

28:21

mean, I, I. surprised to hear

28:23

the timing of that. I'm certainly

28:25

not sympathizing with the way health

28:27

care companies do business. I mean,

28:29

I've seen it in my own

28:31

friends and family that are denied

28:33

critical care that they need or

28:36

they have limits placed on their

28:38

coverage whenever they have, you know,

28:40

terminal. diagnoses and they need continued

28:42

care. But the idea that in

28:44

the wake of this, they would

28:46

announce a major policy change is,

28:49

that is surprising. Okay, I have

28:51

the comment. Great. It's from Chase.

28:53

And he said, I had to

28:55

give this a listen, considering I

28:57

love final days, but you lost

28:59

me at the 805 mark. How

29:01

can we possibly get justice for

29:04

the many who die as a

29:06

result of their greed when the

29:08

system is stacked against us regular

29:10

people? I guess justice looks different

29:12

to different people. I

29:14

think that's a sentiment a lot of

29:16

people are feeling. I think if you

29:18

go down the red it rabbit holes,

29:21

I think if you look at comments

29:23

on news stories, there's a lot of

29:25

that. It's, you know, it's like, well,

29:27

the guy made 27 million last year,

29:29

how badly do we feel? Well, he's

29:31

still a person. He still did not

29:33

deserve to die. And then you can't

29:35

help but attach it to you

29:38

know, someone you know who was

29:40

denied oncology care or something extreme,

29:42

you know, so it is, it

29:44

just, it brings up a whole

29:47

wider conversation, unfortunately, and we, by

29:49

the way, are assuming that that's

29:51

the motive because of those now

29:53

that we know sharply written words.

29:55

We are assuming that's the motive.

29:58

That could just be a red

30:00

herring, not to play devil's advocate,

30:02

but we don't know. It's true.

30:04

I definitely agree that we don't

30:06

100% know that that's the full

30:09

motive. I definitely think we can't

30:11

discount the financial motive in killing

30:13

someone who is worth many millions

30:15

of dollars. There's a lot of

30:17

people who would stand to benefit

30:20

from that. And, you know, to

30:22

our earlier discussion about the health

30:24

care industry, I agree that the

30:26

health care system is broken, but

30:28

you know we can't fix it

30:31

with executions in the street. We

30:33

have to go a different route

30:35

and I think this should be

30:37

a major priority for our country

30:39

and I hope that people continue

30:42

to advocate for this. I know

30:44

that there was a protest prior

30:46

to this shooting in Minnesota. I

30:48

think they had 100 people who

30:50

protested at another United Health Care

30:53

event and You know, I think

30:55

that is the peaceful way to

30:57

show that we stand against this

30:59

type of corporate greed and the

31:02

idea that the healthcare industry is

31:04

a for-profit industry and that people

31:06

are out there trying to make

31:08

this bottom line better for the

31:10

executives at the expense of regular

31:13

Americans who are sick and trying

31:15

to get coverage, but we have

31:17

to look at being a nation

31:19

of laws and being a place

31:21

where everyone feels safe on the

31:24

streets. You know, people have to

31:26

have their day in court and

31:28

we have to look at how

31:30

to get justice for everyone and

31:32

I think we have a long

31:35

way to go in that front,

31:37

but I do think that staying

31:39

on the right side of the

31:41

law is an important part of

31:43

that process. I totally agree. All

31:46

right, well, we're about to wrap

31:48

up here, but before we go,

31:50

I did want to talk about

31:52

the city bike versus the e-bike

31:54

because I saw it was a

31:57

Washington Post that might have reported

31:59

that it wasn't actually a city

32:01

bike, but it is an e-bike.

32:03

So it was initially reported that

32:05

it was a city bike. Apparently

32:08

it was an e-bike, and at

32:10

some point he was seen on

32:12

a camera holding an e-bike battery.

32:14

So wandering around the city. So

32:16

I don't recall the date of

32:19

that. Again, I don't know if

32:21

that's even a detail that is

32:23

true at this point. I think

32:25

that was reported the same day.

32:27

So yeah, I don't I don't

32:30

believe it was a city by

32:32

which you come to New York

32:34

via bus. Now you've gone and

32:36

purchased somehow a bike, surely and

32:39

probably with cash, surely someone is

32:41

going to remember that transaction. Or

32:43

someone in New York already, it

32:45

was their bike and gave it

32:47

to them, you know, but the

32:50

idea that it wasn't a city

32:52

bike. makes sense because

32:54

of the fact that you have

32:56

to have some type of registration

32:58

payment information and you know there

33:00

was someone who had gone into

33:02

all the city bike information and

33:04

had found a likely bike that

33:07

could have been that was checked

33:09

out at the right time and

33:11

was dropped off near Central Park

33:13

and they were like this is

33:15

going to be the e-bike. Well

33:17

it turns out it wasn't a

33:19

city bike at all so but

33:21

you know that's that's that's the

33:23

evil genius of doing this crime

33:25

in New York City, there were

33:27

probably dozens, if not hundreds of

33:29

people who were riding bikes in

33:32

a similar area, in a similar

33:34

time frame, commuting to and from

33:36

work, that dropped it off and

33:38

would have been suspects. But now

33:40

that they've been able to determine

33:42

it's not a city bike, well,

33:44

that's another dead end for police

33:46

in terms of that repository of

33:48

information. So one thing I don't

33:50

think we discussed, we talked about

33:52

how they're looking at DNA from

33:54

the water bottle. The fact remains

33:56

that unless been convicted

33:59

of a crime

34:01

before. crime or unless he's

34:03

a member of the U .S. of

34:05

the US other federal federal it's

34:07

unlikely that his DNA would would

34:09

be anywhere. You know, a lot of know, a

34:11

lot of times people think that if you have

34:13

someone's DNA, it's the magic

34:15

bullet and it solves the crime. And

34:17

it doesn't doesn't always. It really only

34:20

solves the crime if they're already a

34:22

criminal, a known criminal. And that's

34:24

why a lot of times you will

34:26

see investigators going through a suspect's

34:28

home trash, trying to get a DNA

34:30

sample to get a that they can compare

34:32

it to what, you know, they

34:34

have at the scene. have at is something,

34:36

is if it doesn't come up come

34:39

up automatically, this normally really

34:41

good piece of evidence, DNA might be

34:43

be virtually useless until they have

34:45

something else to compare it against. Right.

34:47

The the only thing I can

34:49

think of there is that, I, you know,

34:52

take the the Golden State Killer, for

34:54

example, that you can use. that you

34:56

DNA databases of relatives of maybe

34:58

narrow it down. it down. And

35:00

so I'm sure they're already thinking

35:02

that. But yeah, I think - That's

35:04

an excellent point. I hadn't thought about

35:06

that. But yeah, point. that I probably

35:09

go into that. But yeah, .com and go into ancestry. And

35:11

23. Yeah. Yeah, and it's not it's not unheard

35:13

of. It's certainly been used, but it

35:15

takes time. And now you're flying all

35:17

over the country, finding relatives. I mean,

35:19

it's... I mean, It's a task that really needs

35:21

to be, I mean, be, I just much. just much

35:23

more time he can get away and into

35:26

hiding. The

35:28

police have set up

35:30

a up a crime for $10 ,000.

35:32

for The phone number is

35:35

phone number is 1,800, 577 tips. So if you

35:37

if you have any

35:39

information, please come

35:41

forward. If you are looking

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for even more true crime content,

35:45

check out my upcoming book, book,

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