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This episode discusses sensitive

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subject matter, including mental

0:16

health and suicide. Please

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listen with care and discretion.

0:21

Okay, so this is a bit

0:23

of a surreal moment. One that I've

0:25

been waiting for, for over two years,

0:27

and it's not even my story. I

0:29

can't imagine what Loti must be

0:31

thinking or feeling as we locked

0:33

down the logistics of the big meeting.

0:35

His chance to thank the person

0:37

who intervened and saved his life

0:39

five years ago on that bridge. I

0:41

think for me and the team,

0:44

the overriding sensation, apart from

0:46

excitement, is actually relief. We were

0:48

able to hold up our end of the

0:50

bargain and make it happen, and I

0:52

am so grateful that Loti trusted us,

0:55

and crucially, we didn't let him

0:57

down. There is that expression. Give

0:59

people their flowers whilst they're

1:01

still here. It comes from the cold

1:03

reality that people will always get more

1:06

flowers and well wishes at their funeral

1:08

than when they are still around. This

1:10

meeting with Loti and Andy is an

1:12

opportunity to do just that. It's a

1:15

pivotal moment in their lives as a

1:17

point of closure and reconnection, because how

1:19

many chances that each of us have

1:22

to do that in life, to reconcile

1:24

with your past? to have that

1:26

opportunity after much pause and reflection

1:28

to just say thank you. We

1:31

know that mental health issues

1:33

amongst men are not isolated

1:35

to Loti or that particular

1:37

area of North Manchester. This

1:39

whole exploration of the story

1:41

simply allowed us to capture

1:43

a snapshot of the deeper

1:45

issues that exist universally, where

1:47

Andy and Loti's stories converge.

1:49

I suppose is the fundamental

1:51

understanding that sharing and communication

1:53

is key. Helping someone in

1:55

any small way has a

1:57

butterfly effect. Any small... and

1:59

snowball and set off a

2:01

chain reaction of goodness in

2:03

the world. All of this was playing

2:05

on my mind as I

2:07

took to the crowded, slow

2:09

and excruciatingly overpriced train from

2:12

London to Manchester. Good morning,

2:14

this is traffic train manager

2:16

speaking so welcome to passengers

2:18

that joined the train back

2:20

there at London University Templeburg.

2:22

It brings a part chef

2:24

for Manchester City. Arriving

2:32

into Manchester Piccadilly is much like

2:34

arriving at any huge and busy

2:36

train station. Bright lights, frongs of

2:38

people hurriedly marching in every possible

2:40

direction, and in general, an all-out

2:42

attack on every single one of

2:44

your senses. I scoured for a

2:47

semi-sucluded spot where I could make

2:49

camp and send word to Loti

2:51

for where to find me. The

2:53

most suitable slash, only viable option,

2:55

seemed to be the outside seating

2:57

area of a chain sushi restaurant.

2:59

It was on the first floor

3:01

and overlooked the arrivals into the

3:04

station, which gave me a good

3:06

vantage point to spot Loti. Eventually,

3:08

after what felt an age, I

3:10

could see Loti making his way

3:12

through the barrier, and I signaled

3:14

to him from above. He saw

3:16

me and made his way over

3:18

quite cool and collectively. My man!

3:21

How you doing? Oh man, I'm probably

3:23

like, I see you. Thank you, you

3:25

too man. Oh yeah, good mate. Should

3:27

we sit down for you? Yeah, I

3:29

course, yeah. So do you mind if

3:32

I keep this on? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

3:34

How are you being? Good, yeah, good.

3:36

Just busy, I'll talk a week off.

3:38

Yeah, this is a daughter of Kermos.

3:41

As Lose, he took a seat opposite

3:43

me, he was wearing his sunglasses. Now

3:45

I'm sadly not the most fashionable of

3:48

individuals, and it could well be chalked

3:50

up to that. But what I do

3:52

know is your eyes can

3:54

reveal your true feelings to

3:56

someone sitting opposite, but I

3:58

couldn't tell. some wrong ends

4:00

that's for sure in terms of

4:03

finding Andy but yeah I spoke

4:05

to him properly he's buzzing. Oh

4:07

good good I'm excited I'm excited

4:09

it's it's all um do you

4:11

know I'm not so that many

4:14

people actually though because I thought

4:16

I'm gonna let it happen and

4:18

it happened organically and when we

4:20

share we share you know it's

4:22

one of those things as well

4:25

I always think it's part of

4:27

you that doesn't want to jinks

4:29

it yeah that's it or in

4:31

a relationship you're in a relationship

4:33

you don't tell people you don't

4:36

tell people you don't go people

4:38

you don't go wrong then you

4:40

like a then you like oh

4:42

Loti was also joined by his

4:44

partner and his stepdaughter. We headed

4:46

off to the studio, which was

4:49

an eight minute walk, I'm Jake,

4:51

nice to meet you, you're alright.

4:53

We headed off to the studio,

4:55

which was an eight minute walk

4:57

from the station, according to my

5:00

Google Maps. Is it right here?

5:02

Yeah, from the basin, a hill

5:04

street around the park. This was

5:06

a homecoming for Losedida. He knew

5:08

the area like the back of

5:11

his hand. nodding to people and

5:13

making pleasantries to those we passed

5:15

in the street, what probably would

5:17

have made my legs turn to

5:19

jelly through nervous anticipation. He walked

5:22

with the most self-assured saunter in

5:24

the world. You know, you're in

5:26

control here, right? If you ever

5:28

want to stop, you ever want

5:30

to entirely go soon, you know.

5:33

I'm not too proud to admit.

5:35

I was really nervous, and perhaps

5:37

that impacted my ability to navigate

5:39

Google Maps, and resulted in us

5:41

being slightly lost and late. All

5:43

for a dramaticatic effect, of course.

5:46

Go soon, yeah. What's the expression?

5:48

March the beat of your drum.

5:50

Right, 57, is this 57? Oh

5:52

yeah, Outset Studio, so here. As

5:54

we approached the studio, one of

5:57

our Manchester bass producers Anna had

5:59

already got Andy settled in there,

6:01

who was equally waiting with baited

6:03

breath. Witnessing them in the same

6:05

room and reuniting was a privilege

6:08

I will remember forever. Come on

6:10

in. Wow. Let's see me, Andy.

6:12

You can't make up a genuine

6:14

hug. You can't make up a

6:16

genuine hug. One with warmth and

6:19

affection. You definitely want different. That

6:21

was good. A better. Wow. You

6:23

can't make up a genuine hug.

6:25

One with warmth and affection. What

6:27

began as a cordial handshake quickly

6:30

became that all-encompassing hug as they

6:32

embraced each other. This meeting was

6:34

both a first meeting as Andy

6:36

and Loti, but also a remitting

6:38

of a Savior and the Save.

6:40

So many questions. Honestly, how have

6:43

you been? Oh, yeah, I've been

6:45

okay. Oh, wow. As I... was

6:47

seeing kind of a similar scenario.

6:49

So I've rewired, which is why

6:51

I thought I've got to wear

6:54

me top. So I'm not far

6:56

rewired that I end up running

6:58

a marathon. Amazing. Running seen me

7:00

for a long time. It did

7:02

after. Yes. I couldn't cross that

7:05

bridge for a long time because

7:07

that was where I worked. Yeah,

7:09

fanatics. Yeah, fanatics. And I couldn't

7:11

go so I think I was

7:13

off. Six, seven months maybe.

7:16

And it took me every time

7:18

I was in the car to

7:20

go over, I like, I panic

7:22

or, and I couldn't, what passed

7:24

it in, it was hard because

7:26

that's where my life was, most

7:28

than Blakely, the area, so I

7:30

couldn't, you know, the gym was,

7:32

the gym there, but, you know,

7:34

took some time, you know, and

7:36

I finally got back over that

7:38

bridge. So you would have gone

7:40

down one set of steps to

7:42

go to fanatic security up and

7:44

come back over. There's another set

7:46

of steps. Literally walk down them

7:48

steps. I live on that road.

7:50

No way. Two minutes. Wow. So

7:53

that was my walking route with

7:55

my dogs. Yeah. You know, a

7:57

good few times a week. So

7:59

as I was, you know, going

8:01

over the bridge, it was, the

8:03

thought was there for a long

8:05

time, wondering where he's up to,

8:07

I know it was a one-way

8:09

conversation at the time. But I

8:11

do remember one of the last

8:13

bits was where you were in

8:15

the car. And because I've been

8:17

in a similar situation, I said

8:19

to you, I said if you're

8:21

taking you to all the hospital,

8:23

if you get under the crisis

8:25

team, whatever medication to give you,

8:27

just take all the help. and

8:29

try and rebuild. I remember shaking

8:31

your hand in the car. I

8:33

was in the back and I

8:36

remember because there was people walking

8:38

over the bridge from the offices

8:40

from fanatics. My little brother was

8:42

actually walking up, walking past and

8:44

he didn't have a clue until

8:46

a good few years later I

8:48

never told him. A lot of

8:50

his blur to me but I

8:52

remember you being there and I

8:54

remember it was cold like... It

8:56

was freezing, like, and I only

8:58

know because, like, when they got

9:00

me in the car, I was

9:02

like, oh, God, okay, it's a

9:04

bit warm here. But I was

9:06

like, where am I? It was,

9:08

wow, yeah, that's mad that you

9:10

live right there, like, and I

9:12

used to walk around there and

9:14

go for a run and think,

9:16

oh, am I gonna bump into

9:19

him? Am I gonna see him?

9:21

I'm like, you know, it was,

9:23

it became quite a thing, I

9:25

think, I think, I think, I

9:27

think. Kaseh. Kaseh. No. J7. Jovino.

9:29

Dave Kaseh. Wow. That's where he's

9:31

the one who runs Blakely want

9:33

to run. Wow. So as part

9:35

of, for me to go forward,

9:37

similar scenario, we took up running.

9:39

We started with couch to 5K.

9:41

Yeah. And we then joined. cases

9:43

grew. Blakely walked to run so

9:45

we were always running up Greengate,

9:47

Bugget-Oakoff, Vickyavist, etc. Yeah, at Javino.

9:49

So we probably might have even

9:51

run. capacity. Yeah, God Javino, he

9:53

played a big part in my

9:55

life. That's where I was training

9:57

and that's where I came from.

10:00

But, and again I don't know

10:02

Javino since I was 14. He's

10:04

a couple years older than me,

10:06

but he had a Casey and

10:08

all them. It's mad because that's

10:10

where I came from and I

10:12

just, I think I lost myself

10:14

a little bit, you know, I

10:16

was in a place where I

10:18

think I didn't really talk to

10:20

anyone, you know, you know, No

10:22

one at the gym knew how

10:24

I was feeling. Yeah, Casey said

10:26

you kept myself to yourself. Yeah,

10:28

and that should remind me that

10:30

I was a shadow of myself

10:32

because I used to be the

10:34

the loud one getting everyone involved,

10:36

but I just you know, the

10:38

fact that Casey said I was

10:40

myself to myself and it shows

10:43

how low I think my mood

10:45

was and everything. I think I

10:47

was literally completely different like I've

10:49

rebuilt myself, you know, thanks to

10:51

you. I've gone on to changed

10:53

my life completely. What was your

10:55

step from that police car? So

10:57

they took me to the hospital.

10:59

They took me to the crisis

11:01

team. They had to make sure

11:03

I had to go home. So

11:05

I went home at the time

11:07

it was my kids' mom I

11:09

was living with. So I went

11:11

there. Then it was CBT. So

11:13

I went to the doctors. But

11:15

the doctors weren't really listening. So

11:17

every time. that nobody was listening

11:19

I said look look at my

11:21

notes like I don't want to

11:23

tap and again look at my

11:26

notes I had to really be

11:28

firm because it was always a

11:30

case of oh yeah suicide attempt

11:32

or whatever and and oh he's

11:34

okay so I was like after

11:36

you need to look at my

11:38

notes I don't want to be

11:40

in that place so then I

11:42

had CV for three four months

11:44

you know I had to make

11:46

sure that time I had off

11:48

work I literally spent it in

11:50

the gym in the gym training,

11:52

running, I hated running and that

11:54

still went running. Spending time with

11:56

the kids because I've got two

11:58

kids, my son is 13, my

12:00

daughter is 8, God they were

12:02

tiny then, you know, talking 7

12:04

and 3. So how old are

12:07

you now? 36 and 37 this

12:09

year. Oh I was nowhere near.

12:11

How did you guess? I thought

12:13

you was about 20. Oh no

12:15

wait. So I was guessing you'd

12:17

be about 25 now. I hope

12:19

you're listening to me. Right, I

12:21

was good. Yeah. Yeah, 36, 37

12:23

this year. Like I've learned so

12:25

much grown so much from that

12:27

day, you know, I've become an

12:29

advocate even more of you know

12:31

from mental health and now I

12:33

manage a charity Right called me

12:35

life kind literally from going on

12:37

with a t-shirts. You know, which

12:39

is about educating young people, but

12:41

I manage 35 speakers. Some of

12:43

them have been through suicide trauma,

12:45

some of them have been through

12:47

mental health, some of them are

12:50

from, you know, struggle from knife

12:52

crime, a family, etc. And now

12:54

my role is just to gain

12:56

people into schools and just get

12:58

them at grassroots and make a

13:00

difference. So I'm, that wouldn't have

13:02

happened without that night. How many

13:04

years have we done that for

13:06

three and a half years or

13:08

so? Three and a half years.

13:10

I found my purpose and I

13:12

had none. And I think... when

13:14

you have no purpose you fall

13:16

into a trap of being in

13:18

your own head you don't want

13:20

to be there you know and

13:22

no one when it came out

13:24

that I was there on that

13:26

bridge everyone was shocked you know

13:28

and it just shows that also

13:30

that I didn't speak but also

13:33

that it's so easy to hide

13:35

how you really feeling you know

13:37

because people closest to me didn't

13:39

have a clue you know I

13:41

want to know that you struggled.

13:43

Do you know what I mean?

13:45

The fact that you stopped, you

13:47

know, spoke to me. Well, I

13:49

actually walked past you first time

13:51

because I was with my son,

13:53

who was about 13. Yeah. It

13:55

was because I walked past. looking

13:57

back at you, you were blank,

13:59

so I kind of recognised your

14:01

look, you'd gone. Yeah. And so

14:03

I took my son to the

14:05

other side of the bridge and

14:07

I said just wait a minute

14:09

and that's when I went back

14:11

to you. I don't know how

14:14

long it took for that police

14:16

car. It felt like a long

14:18

time, but I really can't put

14:20

minutes on it. So it was

14:22

one way conversation. The couple came

14:24

up from fanatics. One was a

14:26

security guard. He put his arm

14:28

around you about three times I

14:30

think. Trying to say, oh come

14:32

on, come on, you'd be alright

14:34

and you just shrunk them off.

14:36

You was in a place. And

14:38

when you're in a place and

14:40

you know, it's like someone says

14:42

to you, look at the light

14:44

at the end of the tunnel,

14:46

there's no light. And you plan

14:48

things and you just, you'd be

14:50

better if you wasn't around causing

14:52

problems for everybody else like myself.

14:54

My kids were young and even

14:57

though they were young, you're in

14:59

a situation and whether it's a

15:01

selfish situation. because end of the

15:03

day people take their lives I

15:05

know people who have done that

15:07

yeah some very good friends and

15:09

it leaves you know a lot

15:11

of problems yeah one of the

15:13

lads that I know who works

15:15

at the same company I'm at

15:17

he was about 32 and he

15:19

left three girls and I know

15:21

that they're now struggling yeah so

15:23

the fact that you're trying to

15:25

take your life to make things

15:27

easier for others it actually turns

15:29

out makes things a lot more

15:31

difficult absolutely and that's why because

15:33

I've not known and I've mentioned

15:35

the scenario what happened in conversations

15:38

yeah and I've always thought I

15:40

wonder where you're up to I

15:42

wonder if you got that help

15:44

yeah I had the medication which

15:46

for me was a bit of

15:48

a buzz for the medication it

15:50

lifted me a bit. But then

15:52

to try and put myself in

15:54

the right frame, I had Yvonne,

15:56

my partner now, who in my

15:58

mind was holding me hand, and

16:00

then at the same time, every

16:02

now and then she literally gripped

16:04

me hand, and I think I

16:06

had the ambulance come out for

16:08

me probably about three times. And

16:10

yeah, you just get into a

16:12

mess. You can't get out of

16:14

it and you kind of end

16:16

up selfish. but then taking that

16:18

selfish route actually hurts a lot

16:21

more people because people like yourself

16:23

obviously I'm now learning and going

16:25

off my old scenario is that

16:27

you then end up wanting to

16:29

help others yeah and that is

16:31

how I wanted to know your

16:33

path as in how you went

16:35

from there what achievements did you

16:37

want to do for yourself and

16:39

then for others yeah Definitely, I

16:41

wanted to, I mean the main

16:43

thing was speak because I just

16:45

didn't speak and coming from an

16:47

African culture I just wasn't able

16:49

to, I wasn't, didn't have the

16:51

setting opportunity, anything to speak, so

16:53

I think since then I've just,

16:55

you know, shouted out about it

16:57

everywhere I can, you know, I

16:59

saw Jake found me, you know,

17:01

I wrote a posting, I need

17:04

to find him. And I remember

17:06

my friend messaged me saying there's

17:08

a post about you on this

17:10

page. I've got like less million

17:12

followers. You're going viral. There's all

17:14

the people messaging. He then sent

17:16

me a screenshot of this page,

17:18

which I think like 2.5 million

17:20

followers. And there's a picture of

17:22

me. I think I'd gone to

17:24

the bridge a year after to

17:26

get a picture because I wanted

17:28

to. find you and I thought

17:30

let me find a picture let

17:32

me remember this. I asked this

17:34

woman who walked past to take

17:36

a picture of me and she

17:38

said why? I explained to her

17:40

why I wanted to take a

17:42

picture and I said if you

17:45

ever ever get to this bridge

17:47

and you see somebody I want

17:49

you to do the same that

17:51

I needed for me. Then they

17:53

used this picture and loads of

17:55

people were coming in and I

17:57

was getting text messages and I

17:59

was like, what's going on? But

18:01

I saw it and I was

18:03

like, wow, if people actually want

18:05

to help, let me just, you

18:07

know, see how this goes and

18:09

here we are, like, you know,

18:11

we're here, but now I'm speaking

18:13

more about it, you know, I

18:15

found a purpose trying to help

18:17

young people make a difference since

18:19

that night. educated I think over

18:21

300,000 kids. Yeah. Around the Manchester

18:23

area at all. Around the UK,

18:25

you travel all around the UK

18:28

with this. I am so tired.

18:30

But it's amazing because I don't

18:32

ever look at myself as I

18:34

heated this, but I look at

18:36

it now as growth. I've been

18:38

lucky to be saved and the

18:40

least I can do is that

18:42

little boy that had struggled all

18:44

these years, you know, turning to

18:46

a man and never had a

18:48

support, I thought I need to

18:50

be that for somebody else. Pay

18:52

it forward is to say, I

18:54

go to this mental health group

18:56

called Mandemme up as well. It's

18:58

based in Manchester, there's only Wolverhampton

19:00

now as well. You turn up,

19:02

no expectations, no, you don't have

19:04

to speak, you can just sit

19:06

there and I turned up and

19:08

they were all doing this. talk

19:11

and speaking about how you feel

19:13

and I spoke about that moment,

19:15

spoke about the bridge and everyone,

19:17

you know, no judgment, I was

19:19

there and I was like, I

19:21

never would have gone to something

19:23

like that, you know, a group

19:25

of guys talking about how you

19:27

feel and that's not, that would

19:29

never have been me, the society

19:31

we're living, I would never have,

19:33

you know, growing up on, you

19:35

know, the estateing Cheetia Miller, I

19:37

grew up on, I imagine people

19:39

knew that I went to therapy

19:41

or that kind of that kind

19:43

of thing, but now, I'm like.

19:45

a combination of things you saving

19:47

me and so many things happening

19:49

got me to decide I needed

19:52

to make a difference I can't

19:54

just sit back and you know

19:56

and watch people deteriorate and you

19:58

know and and it comes with

20:00

struggles because you're constantly busy people

20:02

are always wanting to talk to

20:04

you but I found self-care so

20:06

I know how to look after

20:08

myself and it gets too much

20:10

you know partial to going into

20:12

a lake sometimes I can't swim

20:14

so I stand in the shallow

20:16

bit but you know stuff like

20:18

that hiking the gym. like I

20:20

forgot how much I love the

20:22

gym and how much it did

20:24

for me and then thanks to

20:26

Libby I've been journaling recently you

20:28

know just in case I fall

20:30

back into those old habits right

20:32

so I'm learning to find ways

20:35

to deal with how I'm feeling

20:37

so yeah well you've trumped what

20:39

I've done well and truly so

20:41

yeah as trying to focus and

20:43

to give back yeah I set

20:45

up a neighbourhood watch so all

20:47

that area just down them steps

20:49

I wasn't the normal person who

20:51

does something like that. It's usually

20:53

like, you know, not being derogatory

20:55

or anything. Norris, a little old

20:57

granite. Norris from Coronnesian Street, sorry

20:59

Norris. But because I was getting

21:01

to know I went to every

21:03

house, I was going round and

21:05

round. Yeah. The same two things

21:07

kept coming up and it was

21:09

there's nothing to do in this

21:11

area and this area's been going

21:13

down ill for decades. Yeah. And

21:15

I thought, well, I'll try and

21:18

we end up on a WhatsApp

21:20

on a WhatsApp group. So I

21:22

put out what's happening in the

21:24

area. My daughter works at Bugger

21:26

Old Cluff at the Caffe. If

21:28

you have a venturing to there.

21:30

I love that place. That's where

21:32

we do our running from. As

21:34

I did last night, I took

21:36

a lad out last night. Yeah.

21:38

After that I was doing different

21:40

things. I was running a cycling

21:42

group called Manchester Clarion which is

21:44

still going which we're doing that

21:46

on the Sunday for the bike

21:48

ride. Love that. So I was

21:50

getting out with different ages we've

21:52

got a guy in his 70s

21:54

and he loves it just getting

21:56

out. a bike ride and then

21:59

I also there was a teacher

22:01

this teacher and myself set up

22:03

asking does any guys what I

22:05

play football and we got quite

22:07

a good response yeah it was

22:09

community but it was for the

22:11

guys yeah I love it as

22:13

a guys to sort of switch

22:15

off for a bit I have

22:17

a game of football and we

22:19

ended up going to the pub

22:21

and I'm sat there listening to

22:23

stories very much similar to yourself

22:25

but I'm listening to guys of

22:27

what's happened to their childhood and

22:29

what they've gone through and I'm

22:31

like this in agony I'm kind

22:33

of but you sit there you

22:35

listen because you know you need

22:37

to listen yeah once you go

22:39

through a situation yourself yeah and

22:42

if someone wants to try and

22:44

start opening up you'll listen yeah

22:46

and when they're waiting for a

22:48

response you can't really say oh

22:50

well you should do this you

22:52

should do that Yeah. And then

22:54

it'll all go away. Yeah. Doesn't

22:56

work like that. No. So it's

22:58

trying not to get too low.

23:00

Yeah. We've had all the lads

23:02

in the football. There's a young

23:04

gay lad. Yeah. And as it

23:06

happens, this ladd got picked on.

23:08

Meating up. So we actually knew

23:10

some of the ones that were

23:12

causing a trouble. Yeah. So it's

23:14

always having a word in and

23:16

it and we didn't go around

23:18

and beat them up. No, but

23:20

it's kind of supporting it. But

23:22

it just said, look, he's part

23:25

of, you know, a racial answer

23:27

and you're just not going to

23:29

carry that on. Yeah. So as

23:31

word carried on, they got the

23:33

message. So he was good, he

23:35

stuck with us for quite a

23:37

while. He felt cool to work.

23:39

From a young gauge, I think

23:41

he's doing air dressing. Love that.

23:43

He's gone down that route at

23:45

college. Yeah. Where does he just

23:47

thought he was a bit of

23:49

a misfit? Yeah. You don't know

23:51

where he just... Have your time

23:53

with us, enjoy it? Love that.

23:55

I remember one lady asking me,

23:57

what is your group, you know,

23:59

who plays? Because I didn't know

24:01

where she was coming from. I

24:03

literally said we're black, we're white,

24:06

we're Asian, we're man-you, we're city

24:08

supporters, we're bald and we'll eat

24:10

and there was no, we didn't

24:12

have any problems at all. So

24:14

there's no, no one was picking

24:16

on someone else. We just got

24:18

onto the astral turf at our

24:20

game, we paid sub so we

24:22

was able to cover all that,

24:24

it was brilliant. Love that. spirit

24:26

is it's what keeps you going

24:28

it's what it's kept me going

24:30

being part of community is whether

24:32

it's a run club or a

24:34

gym or even even like the

24:36

speakers I work with but your

24:38

son wow he's at uni yeah

24:40

Manchester Una wow so he's done

24:42

a foundation course he's gone in

24:44

engineering he wants to go automotive

24:46

engineering love that did they ever

24:49

affect him in any way seeing

24:51

the bridge and seeing you obviously

24:53

come back or impact him. It

24:55

was Matthew who went over to

24:57

the security guy and I think

24:59

it was him that might have

25:01

ran the police and because he

25:03

was young I made light of

25:05

it yeah so obviously once you'd

25:07

gone in the police car and

25:09

I went back to him we

25:11

carried on with our walk. But

25:13

I don't know, I suppose in

25:15

my head I didn't want to

25:17

make a big deal of it

25:19

for him. Yeah, of course. So

25:21

I was just along the line,

25:23

I'm having a bad day, so

25:25

I'm on a bad day today.

25:27

But it'd be alright, because I

25:29

didn't want him looking into it

25:32

too deep. Yeah, that's it. And

25:34

currently, my kids do not know

25:36

what I went through either. So

25:38

I've kept it away from them.

25:40

Yeah. And obviously doing this podcast

25:42

now. kind of opening up a

25:44

bit to them, but I don't

25:46

want to spoot them too much.

25:48

So I don't want them to

25:50

start thinking, oh my God, so

25:52

my dad went through all this.

25:54

Yeah. And we could have lost

25:56

them. Yeah. Because when you are

25:58

in that, you know, bad place.

26:00

Yeah. You put your plans in.

26:02

Yeah. And like one, one, three

26:04

o'clock in the morning. Yeah. I'm

26:06

sat there with a knife. I'm

26:08

in risk trying to get that

26:10

last push. Yeah. Don't matter when

26:13

my kids are there or not.

26:15

No, at a time. Yeah. So

26:17

I have to make white to

26:19

my kids, which might be the

26:21

wrong. approach as you think from

26:23

listening from what you've done where

26:25

I presume you're going into schools

26:27

to get them young yeah to

26:29

try and teach them and say

26:31

look you're having a bad time

26:33

to put it mildly yeah there

26:35

is help out there absolutely as

26:37

obviously you found out yourself 100%

26:39

because I know my kids didn't

26:41

know for a well they just

26:43

knew that I didn't I went

26:45

to I'd stop working for a

26:47

bit and my son Caleb he's

26:49

very aware of how I feel

26:51

how I am of my motions

26:53

and how I've struggled you know

26:56

I didn't tell them intentionally I

26:58

think it was they were told

27:00

just that he does not okay

27:02

he's you know he'd be alright

27:04

but I don't think he was

27:06

told about that incident but I

27:08

know that eventually they'll know people

27:10

will you know he doesn't really

27:12

go on the internet much but

27:14

you know you'll see they'll see

27:16

but now we're in a position

27:18

where they know that I sometimes

27:20

struggle. but I'm honest with him

27:22

and same with him you know

27:24

I tell him like look I

27:26

cry it's fine I've cried you

27:28

know I've had tears where I've

27:30

hated myself and thought you know

27:32

I shouldn't be here like I

27:34

said Caleb look just be honest

27:36

and be open you know and

27:39

now we have when my daughter

27:41

goes to bed he stays up

27:43

like an extra half an hour

27:45

or whatever and we talk we

27:47

literally just sit down and talk

27:49

and talk like I'll listen to

27:51

him how you feel how you

27:53

really feeling but it was hard

27:55

because all they ever wanted to

27:57

do is hug me and take

27:59

it away yeah it would go

28:01

away you you literally but and

28:03

I explained to them that it's

28:05

not that I didn't want to

28:07

be with them it's just I

28:09

didn't want everyone to be upset

28:11

or to be to keep having

28:13

to look after me you know

28:15

when it was tough it was

28:17

really tough with them and obviously

28:20

well I'm not with my kids

28:22

mom anymore so we we split

28:24

up around not long after that

28:26

so that was tough because then

28:28

I moved out so then I

28:30

wasn't living in my kids so

28:32

that was my comfort blanket them

28:34

too I'd lost that, you know,

28:36

when it was there and that

28:38

was tough and I had to,

28:40

I went through some horrible days.

28:42

Things like Christmas Day, I'm thinking,

28:44

wake up and there's no one

28:46

here and I lived in a

28:48

house share so I moved to

28:50

Falesworth because I couldn't afford it

28:52

in the job I was in

28:54

to move anywhere else. It was

28:56

either that or move to an

28:58

apartment and actually eat beans on

29:00

toast every day and I thought

29:03

dropped the ego just live where

29:05

you can. And it was hard

29:07

because... that was another setback because

29:09

then I'm like I've got myself

29:11

in this place position I mean

29:13

I'm okay I'm not gonna do

29:15

this again but how do I

29:17

cope with the loneliness the struggle

29:19

etc and I had to nature

29:21

was my way like I'd walk

29:23

past you know the rivers local

29:25

tours they're not a nicest but

29:27

I'd walk up the rivers you

29:29

know and and sit there and

29:31

soak up the sounds and and

29:33

what else and and get myself

29:35

for it. But there was a

29:37

time where, like I said, I

29:39

couldn't go past, you know, the

29:41

Greengate Bridge for ages. I was,

29:43

and I'd wake up, every time

29:46

a car would go past, I'd,

29:48

I'd like, flinch and couldn't sleep.

29:50

But you know, it was always

29:52

gonna be difficult straight after it.

29:54

And I learned to really learn

29:56

to manage my emotions. I'm not

29:58

the best at now. I'm trying.

30:00

I try. bought him a lot

30:02

better than what I was, you

30:04

know, five years ago. Do you

30:06

feel that your lapse, do you

30:08

have that lapse? Yeah, I've had

30:10

that lapse. I've described it similar

30:12

to sort of A.A., Alcoholics and

30:14

ominous. Yeah. So you get a

30:16

badge if you're like, you know,

30:18

a month clean. Yeah. And well,

30:20

just personally, because I've been down

30:22

to Andy's Man Club. Oh yeah.

30:24

And you don't sort of realize

30:27

that possibly it never goes away.

30:29

Yeah. I've only lapse. quite badly

30:31

once and that was a boxing

30:33

day. So I don't get on

30:35

with Christmas anyway. Yeah, but you've

30:37

always got that. Back in mind,

30:39

whether you, or whether you're actually

30:41

looking for signs. Yeah, as to

30:43

whether anyone else, or especially your

30:45

kids. Yeah, definitely. You just feel

30:47

like you're keeping a BDI on

30:49

them. Yeah, absolutely. To try and

30:51

recognise anything. 100% like I say

30:53

that when I walk pasture. That

30:55

was me recognising, obviously what you

30:57

look like that day. So I

30:59

knew something wasn't right and I

31:01

hope that the images I have

31:03

in me, I never see with

31:05

my own kids, so maybe I

31:07

do need to be more open

31:10

with them. It's interesting because I

31:12

think it might heal you in

31:14

a sense, you know, in a

31:16

way, because I know me speaking

31:18

to them now, like when I

31:20

struggle. they recognize it as well.

31:22

They do it like they'll be

31:24

like, daddy you all right. I'm

31:26

like, no I'm not, you know,

31:28

and I'll just sit there and

31:30

I'll cry. But now that they're

31:32

aware of how I'm feeling and

31:34

my emotions, it does help a

31:36

lot because I'm not constantly hiding

31:38

like how I'm feeling. That's one

31:40

thing I always say to myself.

31:42

I hid so much like, you

31:44

know, people didn't know the extent

31:46

of how I felt, people just

31:48

knew that. Oh, he's got depression,

31:50

he's got that. But I've got

31:53

borderline personality disorder, you know, I've

31:55

got ADHD, you know, but people

31:57

just... didn't realize and I think

31:59

with my kids and for me

32:01

to be around them you know

32:03

regularly I had to prove that

32:05

I'm going to be okay as

32:07

well because obviously I tried to

32:09

you know jump off the bridge

32:11

first things first is social services

32:13

going to go well are you

32:15

safe around your kids and that

32:17

was that was difficult because I

32:19

like to think I'm a good

32:21

dad but that was horrible you

32:23

know them coming in asking the

32:25

kids my kids went through therapy.

32:27

you know with the break up

32:29

and with that and with the

32:31

way my mind was so I

32:34

think that open dialogue with them

32:36

of how I'm feeling really does

32:38

help so yeah I'd say definitely

32:40

have obviously you know like it's

32:42

kind of how you give them

32:44

the information you know they had

32:46

a time and that's why I'd

32:48

say helps is is me I've

32:50

done it you know gradually and

32:52

I've related it to when they're

32:54

struggling so or when I can

32:56

see that they're not to you

32:58

good I'll go how you feeling

33:00

and they'll tell me and I'll

33:02

go I feel like that once

33:04

you know and then you know

33:06

and so on and same in

33:08

schools you know like I walk

33:10

in here I walk into schools

33:12

like I am and like young

33:14

teenagers will look at me and

33:17

go he cries it didn't look

33:19

like he cries like you think

33:21

he's I don't know you're supposed

33:23

to show what tough man yeah

33:25

that's it and when I told

33:27

him they go wow really and

33:29

then they go wow really and

33:31

then they open they open up

33:33

and then they open up I

33:35

cry, I've seen my dad cry

33:37

but he never spoke about it

33:39

or such and such and it

33:41

really does open up a whole

33:43

new way of thinking because then

33:45

these people respect you even more

33:47

for being open and honest and

33:49

I think that's where my struggle

33:51

was. I used to worry so

33:53

much about what people thought and

33:55

I still do a little bit

33:57

now but now I'm like it's

34:00

okay to feel this way because

34:02

it's not about how you're feeling

34:04

it's how you get up from

34:06

that. tumble, you know how you

34:08

fell, what does it say? uh

34:10

for nine times stand up ten

34:12

you know as long as you

34:14

keep getting up and having those

34:16

conversations it makes everything a lot

34:18

easier yeah I've been I've not

34:20

fell down yet as a runner

34:22

yeah I keep getting told you're

34:24

not a running till you fell

34:26

over oh but just for my

34:28

focus yeah whereas obviously your focus

34:30

is go and see lots of

34:32

people getting the message out. I

34:34

think I have more of a

34:36

personal focus. Yeah, I love that.

34:38

Where I fill my week and

34:41

I will do badminton Monday, I'll

34:43

do swim Tuesday, I'll do run

34:45

and Wednesday, squash Thursday, Friday's rest

34:47

day, Saturday, Saturday Park run, Sunday

34:49

cycle ride. I just feel me

34:51

weak. It's good for the moment.

34:53

Like that every week. I have

34:55

been for quite a while. Yeah.

34:57

To the point I end up

34:59

doing triathlons. Oh, I love that.

35:01

Is it okay if I ask

35:03

one or two things? Because I'm

35:05

conscious, I'm sitting here in the

35:07

corner. Really enjoying and feeling almost

35:09

a bit guilty to be a

35:11

part of this, but it's beautiful

35:13

to witness you guys back together.

35:15

Just I guess the first question,

35:17

which is... In my mind, it's

35:19

for you Andy, which is, obviously

35:21

it's been five years, he's sitting

35:24

in front of you now, when

35:26

he walked in, and obviously now

35:28

after this conversation, can you put

35:30

into words, how does it feel

35:32

to actually see Loti again in

35:34

the flesh in a very, very

35:36

different environment and circumstance? Very different

35:38

looking at Walter, and I suppose

35:40

that was the biggest thing I

35:42

was looking forward to, then it

35:44

had to be the smile. because

35:46

I have images in my head

35:48

and when I was with Crisis

35:50

Team so I knew the image

35:52

that I've got a view that's

35:54

in my head still so I

35:56

can try and flip that image

35:58

and look at you now and

36:00

feel a lot happier not knowing

36:02

for five years, probably you've been

36:04

on a journey looking for me

36:07

so close so very very close

36:09

and I've always just thought I

36:11

wonder what happened to him and

36:13

then every now and then it

36:15

will come up in conversation oh

36:17

yeah yeah I remember this lad

36:19

that I thought your name was

36:21

Lole yeah so I said I

36:23

only know him is Lole but

36:25

yeah my main thing was to

36:27

see you to see your smile

36:29

and feel happier in myself and

36:31

that gives me a caliber of

36:33

peace, you know, peace of mind.

36:35

Yeah. And where you've gone to

36:37

now sounds brilliant. Sounds absolutely brilliant.

36:39

You've trumped me, definitely. Oh, thank

36:41

you. And the same question to

36:43

you, Loti, right? I know this

36:45

is, I mean, because me and

36:48

you have spoken over the last

36:50

few years about finding Andy, he's

36:52

right in front of us, but

36:54

how does it feel to see

36:56

him? Grateful. is the biggest thing.

36:58

Relieved? Because I thought, what if

37:00

I never find him? And you

37:02

guys have, you know, JQ and

37:04

the team have done a massive,

37:06

you know, service to me to

37:08

help find him. Well, I mean,

37:10

I would have hated to have

37:12

opened up old wounds, made you

37:14

feel hopeful about something that we

37:16

then can deliver on, right? And

37:18

no one has a, you know,

37:20

crystal ball. We couldn't have promised

37:22

to have found Andy, but I'm

37:24

so, so, so, so glad. that

37:26

we have and you know feels

37:28

a privilege to just listen to

37:31

you guys talk today. You know

37:33

just to bear witness to it

37:35

really it's a privilege and you

37:37

know thank you for allowing us

37:39

to be a part of this

37:41

process as well because listening to

37:43

what you're talking about as a

37:45

little bit of an outsider it

37:47

feels like you're talking about a

37:49

lot of things that I think

37:51

will help people actually and maybe

37:53

feel like it's okay and that

37:55

they can seek help and you

37:57

know that sense of community and

37:59

striving to be better. I Think

38:01

it's a really powerful thing that

38:03

you guys are doing. So thank

38:05

you. Thank you honestly It's so

38:07

long enough to be, like I've

38:09

not even, there's three people that

38:11

know that I was coming here,

38:14

to Libya and Mrs and Katie,

38:16

stepdaughter, and then my boss, oh

38:18

wait for my kid's mom. I

38:20

did tell her as well, because

38:22

she was like, really? Yeah, of

38:24

course, yeah. And I actually can't

38:26

wait to tell people, look what's

38:28

happened, look what? The world is

38:30

done, look what manifestation, look what

38:32

hardware, growth, you know, collaboration, support

38:34

does, look what it does, it

38:36

does amazing things that you can't

38:38

do alone, you know, it just

38:40

shows I wouldn't have survived alone

38:42

on that bridge, I would have

38:44

gone, you know, so need having

38:46

Andy there. was the

38:49

start you know of greatness not

38:51

greatness for me but greatness for

38:53

for all of us because we know

38:55

how to handle situations better I've

38:57

since then I had a situation

38:59

with someone else where I'd helped them

39:01

you know I'd like to think

39:03

I helped them you know so

39:05

I wouldn't have known how to deal

39:08

with that part of if it

39:10

wasn't for my situation I mean

39:12

it in one level it feels trivial

39:14

right we're sitting here with microphones

39:16

in front of our face and

39:18

we're making a podcast and it can

39:20

feel self-indulgent and it feels silly

39:22

almost a little bit but you

39:24

never know who might listen to this

39:27

and it might it might be

39:29

just a very small thing that

39:31

helps someone and that's to me that's

39:33

an important reason to do it

39:35

I suppose you know people who are

39:37

listening if they are low the

39:39

know and they've heard people can

39:41

get very low, very rock bottom, but

39:44

at least they can hear that

39:46

there is help out there and

39:48

it's the education of that help that

39:50

is there and it can be

39:52

right on your doorstep because you

39:54

just never know and that's all it

39:56

is is you know to get

39:58

that help to try and help

40:00

you get out of the hole. rather

40:03

and causing bigger problems for your

40:05

family, for your friends, because that

40:07

just, it just goes beyond the problems

40:09

that you can leave. And there's

40:11

something else actually which I wanted

40:13

loaded for you to maybe talk a

40:16

little bit about if you're comfortable

40:18

with it. You had your own

40:20

moment where you saw someone struggling on

40:22

the other side of a barrier,

40:24

I think it was, in London, willing

40:26

themselves to jump into the Thames

40:28

where you intervened and help that

40:30

person and it feels like... I don't

40:33

know it's like a chain reaction

40:35

almost right from Andy intervening to

40:37

you to you intervening with someone else

40:39

maybe that's how it works like

40:41

pay it forward yeah you said

40:43

definitely it's um it was a hard

40:45

day and I just remember this

40:47

the young lad so on the

40:49

other side of the barrier and it's

40:52

quite obvious if you're still on

40:54

the other side of the barrier

40:56

over river like Thames you know you're

40:58

not relaxing now having a breakfast

41:00

or whatever you you know your

41:02

intention is probably that you don't want

41:04

to be here and you want

41:06

to be here and you want

41:08

to again there was a lot of

41:11

people walking past and I think

41:13

after the event I was a

41:15

bit annoyed that people didn't help but

41:17

then I realized that not everybody

41:19

knows how to help and I realized

41:21

that I was helped I couldn't

41:23

walk by but like you I

41:26

walked past and then look back so

41:28

I was walking and looking at

41:30

him and he had this massive

41:32

coat on he was sweating it was

41:34

a hot day but he just

41:36

and I walked past like about

41:38

five six steps and I just looked

41:41

back and I went, nah, I'm

41:43

not going, not going anywhere. I

41:45

think I had to be somewhere at

41:47

a meeting and I just said,

41:49

look, I'm not making this, I'll

41:51

get there when I get there and

41:53

I had to, I just spoke

41:55

to him and like, you know,

41:57

put my hand over and I was

42:00

just like, you know, safe, how

42:02

are you, you okay? And he

42:04

was like, yeah, I was like, I

42:06

knew you'd say yeah. But you

42:08

don't look okay. So I'll be

42:10

honest with you, you know, how you

42:12

feeling what's going on? This is

42:14

something that's triggered this and he said

42:17

like something about his mental health

42:19

and he was due to go

42:21

to the doctors for an appointment but

42:23

he just didn't want to go

42:25

because he didn't want to be

42:27

here so I said look I went

42:29

trust me I said you're probably

42:31

going to hear people say this

42:33

but I was in your position I

42:36

said I've been there I said

42:38

I can't let you do this

42:40

I can't like I'll wait here as

42:42

long as I need to wait

42:44

here as I don't care where

42:46

I need to be I'm going to

42:49

wait here I'm going to wait

42:51

here and he came back over

42:53

the barrier going back over the bus

42:55

But before I left I said,

42:57

like, I said, you don't have

42:59

to let me know how you are,

43:01

but I'd love you to. Like,

43:03

here's my Instagram. I'll be waiting for

43:06

your message. You know, I'm not

43:08

going to chase you. I'm going

43:10

to leave you to recover and do

43:12

what you need to do. And

43:14

then a couple weeks later, he

43:16

got in touch, said, yeah, he went

43:18

to the doctor's, he looked after

43:20

him. you did that this way

43:22

you acted because you can't let somebody

43:25

go the way you know when

43:27

I was saved that there's no

43:29

way I can I can just let

43:31

that person go and I've not

43:33

really told people the story like

43:35

I'm not really it's not really something

43:37

I've shared but it really made

43:39

me think you know and also

43:41

you can't save everyone but you get

43:44

the opportunity to impact them so

43:46

you know that guy's still around

43:48

I got him away from that situation,

43:50

which was the important thing, what

43:52

he does after is down to

43:54

him to take the advice. But yeah,

43:56

it was quite emotional that, but

43:58

it made me wake up and think,

44:01

I've been lucky enough to still

44:03

be here, let me do the

44:05

same for him. Yeah. And for you

44:07

Andy, I guess it's that ripple

44:09

effect, right? You know, the... butterfly

44:11

effect or whatever they call it right

44:14

you intervene with Loti help Loti

44:16

Loti gets in a good place

44:18

he intervenes and so so the baton

44:20

is past I mean how does

44:22

that make you feel oh yeah

44:24

that's dreamly good I suppose it, like

44:26

I say, it's the recognising. And

44:28

for people who's been in that

44:30

situation, to then try and help and

44:33

prevent someone else from going down

44:35

the same road. Yeah, ripple effect.

44:37

It's like the same, what goes around

44:39

comes around. You've done. Well, obviously

44:41

I waited five years. Which was

44:43

a little bit different. I would have

44:45

liked a couple of weeks. Sometimes,

44:47

you know, when you need to

44:49

rebuild and you need to just focus

44:52

on yourself. Yeah. And that's what

44:54

counts really. 100%. It's much harder. I

44:56

grew up in the poor areas,

44:58

you know, Blakely. So it can

45:00

be harder. But then it doesn't have

45:02

a particular kind of person it

45:04

goes for, depression. So yeah, it's

45:06

good to just keep on seeing what

45:09

you can do for others. What's

45:11

that expression? Bad things happen when

45:13

good people do nothing, right? It's a

45:15

good example of that I guess.

45:17

We live in a world unfortunately

45:19

where people don't take the opportunity to

45:21

have to make a difference and

45:23

I learn a lot from you

45:26

that evening, you know. Yeah, and I'm

45:28

starting to remember more from it

45:30

as well, which is always good.

45:32

I mean, it's not for me to

45:34

say, but I hope to stay

45:36

connected. I hope, you know, that

45:38

sounds like there's a lot of beautiful,

45:41

powerful, amazing things that you could

45:43

do together, right? Yeah, absolutely. I'll

45:45

be coming on a run, even if

45:47

I have to come back to

45:49

Manchester for it. I'll be coming. No,

45:51

definitely. you know how how how

45:53

much I wanted to find you

45:55

you know people that were in my

45:58

life a lot of people have

46:00

gone from my life from then

46:02

you know because you grow and you

46:04

go through certain things and people

46:06

leave unfortunately or you outgrow them

46:08

you know and that's that's a shame

46:10

but also it's part of life

46:12

and I think to grow and

46:14

to be better at what you are

46:17

be better person than yesterday sometimes

46:19

you have to drop people out

46:21

and but that taught me also that

46:23

I'm worth worthy of help you

46:25

know I'm worthy of support you

46:27

know because some people didn't support me

46:29

unfortunately but I don't want to

46:31

focus on them, I want to

46:33

focus on people that have supported me

46:36

so yeah it's taught me a

46:38

lot so definitely I'll be keeping in

46:40

touch. Feels good feels very good

46:42

sat here. It was a genuine

46:44

privilege to be present for that long-awaited

46:47

reunion of Loti and Andy. This

46:49

journey and boy has it felt

46:51

like a journey has really opened my

46:53

eyes and highlighted the importance of

46:55

open communication and having the courage

46:57

to be vulnerable. There is no magic

46:59

cure for any struggle with your

47:01

mental health, but both Andy and

47:03

Loti have proven in their own ways,

47:06

it's the consistency of showing up

47:08

for others, even in the smallest

47:10

way imaginable, has positive consequences. It feels

47:12

like a torch is passed, from

47:14

Andy to Loti, and now Loti

47:16

onwards, each time proving that every time

47:18

you meet a stranger, the world

47:20

becomes a little smaller and more

47:22

connected. To witness Andy

47:24

and Loti bear all in their

47:27

meeting was something I'm not sure

47:29

would have been accepted or happened

47:31

until recent years. That feels a

47:33

positive change. Finding Andy is a

47:36

message-heard production. It was written and

47:38

hosted by me, Jake Warren, and

47:40

produced and edited by Sandra Ferrari,

47:42

with production support in this episode

47:44

from Mark Kendrick and Anna Staufenberg.

47:47

Orla O'Brien has been the investigative

47:49

journalist for this story. This episode

47:51

was mixed by Alan Lear and

47:53

the music composed by Tom Biddle.

48:05

Follow Finding in Wandery app. You can

48:07

binge the entire series early

48:09

and and right now by

48:11

joining Wondery Plus in the

48:13

Wondery app, Apple Apple Spotify.