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Forget frequently asked questions Common sense

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and more here come the geniuses

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This is the Finding Genius podcast

0:32

for the Richard Jacobs Hello,

0:38

this is Richard Jacobs with the Finding

0:40

Genius Podcast. My guest today is

0:42

Mary Schmidt, the founder and CEO a

0:44

creator of the conversational edge system.

0:46

She's written about it. So a neuroscience

0:48

-backed technique to build lasting client relationships.

0:50

So I think it promises to

0:53

be very interesting. Welcome. Thanks for

0:55

coming. How you doing, Mary? Oh, it's my

0:57

pleasure to be here and with your listeners and

0:59

I'm doing well today. Thank you for asking. Well,

1:01

good. Tell me about this conversational system. What is

1:03

it and how did it arise? So

1:05

how it arose is that I thought

1:07

I was really good at conversations and...

1:09

wasn't. I thought that as spending many

1:11

years as an executive in healthcare organization,

1:13

I thought two things. There must be

1:15

something wrong with them. There must be

1:17

something wrong with me. But you know

1:19

what, Richard? Was neither. There was something

1:21

wrong with the conversations. I would talk

1:23

and talk and talk and people would

1:25

like sort of like not get what

1:27

I was saying. And so. I wondered

1:30

why that happened. And in my wonderment,

1:32

I came across the neuroscience of conversation,

1:34

which explains that what goes on in a

1:36

conversation starts in our brain. It's

1:38

this interaction of chemicals that allow us

1:40

to either open up and connect

1:42

with one another or we shut down

1:44

in protection. And based on

1:46

that, as well as

1:48

social psychology and business, I

1:50

put together and I teach

1:52

that what's called the conversational

1:55

edge system and it's a

1:57

whole program that starts with

1:59

us understand what role our brain

2:01

plays so that we can then follow

2:03

the principles and one by one

2:05

lead better conversation. So we're in the

2:07

moment of a conversation and it's

2:09

not going well. We know what to

2:12

do. Well, what's an example like, you

2:14

know, we're starting off sounds like on a good

2:16

foot. Are they okay? What do we do

2:18

to have a good conversation? Well, you

2:20

first have to understand what goes

2:22

on in our brain. And

2:24

it's this simple. The conversations that

2:26

you lead will either open

2:28

up people and the oxytocin gets

2:30

flowing and they'll trust or

2:32

they'll shut down in protection and

2:35

cortisol takes over. And the

2:37

interesting piece is people cannot develop

2:39

trust in you in the

2:41

conversations when cortisol is running the

2:43

show. And cortisol is more

2:45

frequently known as a amygdala hijack.

2:47

Fight, flight, freeze, appease. And when

2:49

people are in that state, they

2:51

can't connect, they can't listen. and they

2:53

can't respond. So our job is

2:55

to get more of the good chemicals

2:57

flowing in a conversation. If you

2:59

see that people tend to go into this,

3:01

I'm not going to listen. I can't listen

3:04

to state more readily nowadays. I think so. And

3:06

I think that we look at the

3:08

world at large. And I think there's a

3:10

lot of uncertainty and unrest and fear.

3:12

And so there's some things that we can

3:14

do to mitigate that in the conversations

3:16

that we lead. What's an example of

3:18

that? So the first thing. Rich that

3:20

we need to do is we need to

3:22

prepare ourselves. We need to take 60

3:25

seconds before our conversations and take a deep

3:27

breath and reset our nervous system. Breathing

3:29

is the easiest, quickest, fastest way to

3:31

reset our nervous system. Then we need

3:33

to get second, get really clear out

3:35

why are we even having this conversation? What's

3:37

the purpose of it? Then we need

3:39

to switch our thinking from us to the

3:41

person that we're going to be talking

3:43

with and ask ourselves questions like what

3:45

may be going on in their world?

3:48

What's their situation? When most importantly,

3:50

how do I want them to

3:52

feel as a result of having

3:54

a conversation? You've just turned on

3:56

the good chemicals in your brain,

3:58

so now you're ready to share

4:00

those with the people that you're going to be

4:02

in conversation with. Okay, so again, what what do

4:04

I do? I'm gonna have so so the second

4:06

so you either pair yourself The second

4:09

thing that you need to do is is

4:11

understand that from a neurochemical point of

4:13

view that when I first lay eyes on

4:15

you or I walk into the room

4:17

in a conversation I have some angst about

4:19

what are we going? What are we

4:21

going to talk about and where's this conversation

4:23

going? So the first piece of it

4:25

is that is that we need to present

4:27

with a home presence. Good eye contact

4:29

a smile arms out in front

4:31

of us, shoulder relaxed. My brain automatically

4:33

picks that up and simply says, oh,

4:35

this person seems to be friendly. They

4:37

seem to be interested. And then

4:39

the first words that come out of our

4:41

mouth is not how is the weather, which

4:43

is the normal chit -chat rapport building. I say,

4:45

no, the first words that come out of

4:47

your mouth is to look at the other

4:49

person say, you know, I'm glad we have

4:51

time to spend together. I'm happy to see

4:53

you. What that does is, again, it triggers

4:55

a good chemical. Like you're interested and you're

4:57

really wanting to be in this conversation with

5:00

me. You're giving me the time. And

5:02

many times people will just smile and like

5:04

take them by surprise, but it takes them by

5:06

a good surprise. And then once we

5:08

get going, we invite them into the

5:10

conversation instead of just business before, business,

5:12

business, business. Invite them in and simply

5:14

say, you know, the purpose of our

5:16

conversation is to. And before we get

5:19

going, I'm wondering what You were thinking

5:21

about, that's important for you to discuss.

5:23

Let them go first. Tell you what

5:25

it is that they have on their

5:27

mind. And then you can simply say,

5:29

well, thank you for sharing. Always acknowledge

5:31

and appreciate people. You can say, well,

5:33

thank you for sharing. Here's some ideas

5:36

that I had that we could talk about

5:38

today. Share that with them. It shows

5:40

that you're prepared, that you're ready for

5:42

them. And then together, you decide the

5:44

course of the conversation. We call that

5:46

co -creation. I take your ideas. and

5:48

my ideas and we put them together.

5:51

So you see that gives, that puts

5:53

us on a playing field where we're

5:55

partners. You're not above me and I'm

5:57

not below you. But together we can

5:59

create this conversation that is going to

6:01

be beneficial and fruitful. So when

6:03

I come into a conversation and I just start

6:05

asking questions and maybe I'm not soft, you

6:08

know, I kind of like interrogate the person without

6:10

meaning to. It makes sense that they would

6:12

all of a sudden be filled with stress and,

6:14

you know, clam up because they feel like

6:16

they're being attacked, I guess, some way, right? Yeah,

6:18

because they have no context and no

6:20

framework while you're asking what you're asking. And

6:23

it's easy to jump into business to be

6:25

quick and to be efficient, but it

6:27

doesn't build trust. In fact, it's the opposite

6:29

effect. We think that we're being helpful,

6:31

like, let's get to business and let's talk

6:33

about this and let's get this solved.

6:35

So we think that we're being easy and

6:37

efficient, but it backfires on us. And

6:39

it has the... Why does it backfire if it's

6:41

just business and the... You know, it's not

6:43

a personal thing and I'm not being angry or

6:45

overbearing, but I'm just like, all right. Let's

6:47

just be efficient and get started. Why is that

6:49

no good? Because people don't, they're still

6:52

sort of in that anxious state like

6:54

what's really going to happen here and

6:56

how is this going to go and

6:58

they have no idea. And that uncertainty

7:00

makes them feel a little angst. So

7:02

we just set it up in a

7:04

way that we're very clear about where

7:06

we're going to go and what we're

7:08

going to do. That calms people's nervous

7:10

system so they know what to expect.

7:12

Our brain is a very predictive, expectant

7:14

brain and when we know we can

7:16

relax. And we've got to relax because

7:18

that's what allows the oxytocin to start

7:20

flowing, which allows us then to build

7:22

trust. So that's why it's important to

7:24

invite them into the conversation. And then

7:26

we can get going with what distance? And

7:29

then we can get going with the

7:31

business. Well, I'm there, you know, I'm

7:33

glad to see you today. Glad we could have

7:35

this conversation. I want to talk about XYZ. Are

7:38

you that cool with you? Yeah, that sounds

7:40

good. All right, well, let's get started.

7:42

And then so then there's no like fear

7:44

or worry and the person's prepared. And what

7:46

I like about that is you've just

7:48

beautifully demonstrated how simple it can be. You

7:50

see, I teach principles, but I don't

7:52

teach you a script. It's that simple. It

7:54

is that simple. And three

7:56

sentences really calms people down. They know

7:58

what to expect, and they're ready to engage

8:00

with you. Yeah,

8:03

because our job is to say more and

8:05

do more of what gets our good chemicals

8:07

going. And something as simple as what you

8:09

just said does the trick. It's not a

8:11

trick. It triggers them in a really good

8:13

way. Now they're ready. Yeah,

8:15

it makes sense. Like my podcast guests, I'll tell

8:17

them how long we're going to talk and,

8:19

you know, it's recorded and all the other stuff.

8:21

I try to over time answer all the

8:23

questions they'd have beforehand. So now they sometimes they

8:26

have a question or two, but usually they're

8:28

like, okay, I'm ready. And off we go. Exactly.

8:30

That's a perfect demonstration of the

8:32

principle. Well, I've also noticed though, too,

8:34

in the first couple of minutes of a

8:36

conversation, even if you had that preamble,

8:39

there still could be like a sticking point.

8:41

So do you do you watch for

8:43

something like that? Do you see it happen

8:45

or? you know if you set the

8:47

right framework in the beginning it's smooth or

8:49

there are other milestone points where you

8:51

have to like re -smooth it out. There

8:53

could be sticking points. I think one of

8:55

the biggest sticking points that I see

8:57

is that we don't consistently follow this

8:59

way of speaking to people and we

9:01

go off track and we think that

9:03

by talking about the hobbies and the

9:05

weather and all these things that really

9:07

aren't pertinent to the conversation at hand

9:09

we're building rapport and you don't need

9:11

to do that. We get way off

9:13

track and we spend all our time,

9:15

you know, on the weather and the

9:17

sports and the ball scores and whatever

9:19

it might be. And that takes away

9:21

from the real reason that they're there. And

9:23

the real reason I'm in here in a

9:26

conversation with you is that I've got something on

9:28

my mind. I want to talk with you

9:30

about, and it's not that. Well, how do

9:32

I reset that expectation? Let's say we got on

9:34

and you took control right away and you're asking

9:36

me about all this stuff. And I want to

9:38

tell you, like, you know, Mary, I appreciate it,

9:40

but we got to get started. Like, how do

9:42

I redirect you in a nice way? You go

9:45

with it and you simply say, let's get started

9:47

then. I have an example of a client that

9:49

tried this technique. It uses this all the time

9:51

and the clients that came to visit him simply

9:53

looked at him and said, you know, enough of

9:55

this. I don't need a social relationship. I'm not

9:57

here to socialize. Let's get down to business right

9:59

now. And response was great. Where do you

10:01

want to start? It's that simple. Okay. And

10:03

that's not going to offend the person that's

10:05

wanting to talk about X, Y or Z.

10:07

Yeah. Okay. I just wondered if you had

10:09

any trouble, you know, like that. No. What

10:12

about, um, If you're like in the middle of conversation

10:14

and for some reason it's kind of going off

10:16

the rails, how do you bring it back in a

10:18

nice way that doesn't upset the person or making

10:20

a skidding up? That's a beautiful question because

10:22

that will happen and people go on

10:24

and on with their stories and things

10:26

that aren't really relevant to what it

10:28

is that you need to talk about. So

10:30

what I suggest that we do is

10:32

we politely but directly interrupt and simply

10:34

say. Rich, I understand the story or what

10:37

you're telling me is important, but I'm

10:39

lost and I don't understand how that

10:41

relates to. Help me to understand how we

10:43

can talk about how this relates to

10:45

what it is that we're here for.

10:47

So you interrupt and bring them back. I

10:49

call it refocus. The skill is refocus.

10:51

We're talking about a lot of things

10:53

that are important to you, but let's

10:55

get back to what the main reason

10:57

that we're here today for. You take

10:59

control back and refocus them because people

11:01

don't even realize that. sometimes they just

11:03

get talking and talking and you know

11:06

because the dopamine kicks in and we

11:08

like to hear ourselves talk they just

11:10

go on and on and we take

11:12

control to guide the conversation in a

11:14

way that's productive to the meaning of

11:16

why we're meeting. Okay, so just like a

11:18

general redirection back to the subject that and... Yeah,

11:20

redirection. That's a way to do it. Correct, redirect,

11:22

refocus. We were talking about let's

11:24

go back to that because I

11:26

think that's what you said to

11:29

me was important that we talk

11:31

about today. Okay. So what

11:33

are some personality types that are difficult to

11:35

do this with? It's like, um, I run into

11:37

some people that just they're talking to death.

11:39

If you don't stop them, like you end up

11:41

being a skeleton, you know, how do you,

11:43

how do you shut up people like that? They

11:45

just go, they won't stop. Time out.

11:47

Time out. Time out. Let's

11:50

pause. Take a breath and you're

11:52

taught, you know, you know, so why

11:54

do you think that they're talking a mile

11:56

a minute? I don't know. Maybe

11:58

I had a discomfort. Maybe, um, it

12:00

is like the talk. I don't know. Yeah, there's something

12:02

underneath all of that. They're uncomfortable. They're

12:04

nervous. They're anxious. They just like to

12:06

talk. You know, the real reason that

12:08

people talk is because of our brains.

12:11

Because the more we talk, the more we get a hit

12:13

of dopamine. And the more that

12:15

the dopamine takes over, the more we talk

12:17

because we love to hear ourselves talk.

12:19

So it's incumbent upon us that we take

12:21

a time out and say, whoa, Rich,

12:23

slow down. Slow down. Take a breath. Okay.

12:26

Now, let's get to what it is

12:28

that we need to talk about. You're talking

12:30

in my element. I can't quite keep

12:32

up and I want to hear what

12:34

you have to say. So, slow

12:36

down. Slow down. Good. And

12:38

you actually do that. Actually, you do

12:40

that with them. Rich, I'm

12:42

calling a timeout. Let's slow down here a

12:45

minute and take a breath. You're talking in

12:47

my element and I can't keep up with

12:49

that. And I want to hear what you

12:51

have to say because it's important. So let's

12:53

just take a breath. Now, what is it?

12:55

Can you summarize? Can you bottom line it?

12:57

Can you... I use the word bottom line.

12:59

Can you bottom line for me what's important

13:01

or what's the impact of what you're telling

13:04

me? Oh, okay. Do people take

13:06

offense to that or do they react?

13:08

They react with like, oh, I didn't even

13:10

realize that I was doing that. And

13:12

yeah, I can bottom line it. You see,

13:14

you deliver it in a kind way.

13:16

but a very direct way. You don't say

13:18

like, just stop talking and get to

13:20

the point. That wouldn't be very effective, but

13:23

you frame it back. You want to

13:25

hear what they have to say, but when

13:27

they're talking a mile a minute and

13:29

they're all over the map, it's really difficult

13:31

for you to understand and you want

13:33

to understand. So let's both pause, take a

13:35

breath. Now, what's the most important thing

13:37

of what you were trying to convey to

13:39

me? What's the most important point? Well, what

13:41

do you mean? Bottom line it. Tell me

13:43

in two sentences what I need to know

13:45

about this. But about if someone's

13:47

shut down in a conversation,

13:49

they're not talking much. They're just

13:51

like, what could you do

13:53

to bring them back to the

13:56

table? That's another really good question. So

13:58

we go back and say, why are people

14:00

shut down? What made them shut down? Oh,

14:02

it could be many things, but just

14:04

something that happened in the conversation where it's

14:06

gotten uncomfortable and you want to try

14:08

to bring them back. What could you do?

14:10

So you name it. and you invite them

14:12

back into the conversation. So it sounds

14:14

something like this, Rich. I noticed with that

14:16

last question, I noticed that you have

14:19

gone really quiet. What are you thinking? Would

14:21

you be willing to share that with?

14:23

You see, we have to realize that sometimes

14:25

people go quiet and we think that

14:27

they're shut down, but they're what we call

14:29

internal processors. They're in their mind thinking

14:31

about what they're thinking about, what you said,

14:33

and thinking about how they're going to

14:35

respond. So we give them a little space.

14:38

We need to get comfortable with silence,

14:40

first of all, and we give them a

14:42

little space 30 seconds 60 seconds okay let

14:44

them think and let them process and

14:46

then invite them back in invite them back

14:48

in would you be willing to share

14:50

with me what you're thinking you've been kind

14:52

of quiet okay and see what you

14:54

get with that well I don't know what

14:56

I'm someone will say back to you

14:59

well I don't know I don't know it's

15:01

just kind of quiet you know I

15:03

understand you're empathetic right I understand How

15:05

can we get this going again?

15:07

So they're retreating them because they're really

15:09

afraid of something. They're uncomfortable or they're

15:12

busy thinking about what they're thinking about.

15:14

And we gently invite them back in. Hmm.

15:16

Okay. What about if someone's just, I don't

15:18

know, they've just taken offense to what you're

15:20

saying. They're just pissed off. Now they're becoming

15:22

hostile. You know, can you de -escalate

15:24

them then? What would you do? What

15:27

I recommend that we do is we, again,

15:29

put a pause on it and simply say,

15:31

it seems to me that what I'm saying

15:33

to you is really upsetting you. seems to

15:35

me that you're feeling really angry. Did I

15:37

get that right? And they'll say, yes, you

15:39

did. You said something that was very offensive.

15:41

Circle back and say, what did I say

15:43

that offended you? Because that was not my

15:46

intention. Well, you said thus and so and

15:48

thus and so. You took great offense at

15:50

that. Yeah, I did. Okay. Okay. Let me

15:52

try again to resay it in a different

15:54

way because I didn't intend for you to

15:56

take it badly. What I intended was to

15:58

get to the bottom of what some

16:00

of the facts are so that I

16:02

can help you. So help me

16:04

to understand so I can help you.

16:06

Again, you're inviting them back in.

16:08

You're recognizing that something happened. Sometimes we

16:10

need to apologize and simply say,

16:13

you know, I'm sorry that that offended

16:15

you. That was not my intention.

16:17

What I was really trying to accomplish

16:19

was getting to some facts or

16:21

getting to know the situation more. Can

16:23

you help me to understand? Turn

16:25

it back on them and give them some

16:27

space to respond. You may run into a

16:29

situation where people just get

16:31

totally ignited and furious. And

16:34

at that point in time, it's time

16:36

to call the conversation. You simply say,

16:38

I think I touched a nerve here

16:40

and you're really upset. Let's take five

16:42

minutes to regroup. Do you need a

16:44

glass of water? How can I help

16:46

you to regroup? And sometimes you might

16:48

even need to cut that conversation short

16:50

if they're really volatile and really upset

16:52

and simply say, you know, I don't

16:54

know that we can accomplish much when

16:56

you're this angry or this upset. Depends

17:00

on the intensity of

17:02

the feeling. Right. So

17:04

I guess you just prod a little bit, but

17:06

then if it's not working, then

17:08

you you let it go

17:10

or you just say let's let's try to

17:12

get another time. If you didn't and you

17:14

kept prodding and prodding what do you think would

17:16

happen? It was like you said earlier

17:18

they would just become cortisol filled and not be

17:20

listening and just they'd probably start coming across to

17:23

you as like completely unreasonable and you're thinking like

17:25

jeez it sounds wrong with this person but it

17:27

gets there in a state where they just can't

17:29

listen. Well and if you keep prodding

17:31

and prodding we're in there in

17:33

a state where they're highly agitated or

17:35

highly angry or highly you're going

17:37

to feed the fire. And that's not

17:39

productive. Yeah, it makes sense. Okay. So who

17:41

do you teach this to when you teach it?

17:43

How do you teach it? So

17:45

I teach it to professionals

17:47

who want to be better

17:49

at their conversation, who understand

17:51

that their success and their

17:53

work makes a difference because

17:55

when you lead conversations that

17:58

build trust and people have

18:00

trust and confidence in them. The

18:02

relationship grows and stands a test

18:04

of time. So I've worked in

18:06

a couple different industries. I primarily

18:08

work in financial services, helping financial

18:10

advisors and firm owners learn how

18:12

to lead conversations, not just with

18:14

their clients, but with their staff.

18:16

I've also worked in the verticals

18:18

of IT and healthcare. Where does

18:20

this become all, is this, you know, what

18:23

about if the power dynamic is different

18:25

like boss versus worker versus the worker? It's

18:27

huge. It's huge. So the power,

18:29

the power dynamics in any organization or

18:31

any business exists. I'm the boss.

18:33

You're the employee. And I get that.

18:35

And what I encourage people to

18:37

do is when they learn how to

18:39

talk with people, they shift the

18:41

power balance. I'm the boss. I know

18:43

it. I'll do what I say,

18:45

say what I do, which people don't

18:47

build. That doesn't build trust. to

18:49

more of a power with. So let's

18:51

talk about how we can improve

18:53

this process. Let's talk about what's going

18:55

on. I want your ideas. I'll

18:57

share with you my ideas. And then

18:59

together, let's problem -sell what our options are.

19:01

How can we prevent this from happening

19:04

again? Or what are we going to

19:06

do now that it happened? What will

19:08

you do? What will I do? Where

19:10

will you need my support? And on

19:12

we go. It's much different than simply

19:14

saying to someone, this is what went

19:16

wrong. This is your fault. You better

19:18

fix it. or else. But coming down

19:20

to say, how can I support and

19:22

work with you as the boss, as

19:25

the leader, has a whole different meaning

19:27

that allows people to begin trusting you

19:29

so when they do have a problem,

19:31

they'll come to you and simply say,

19:33

you know, I got really stuck. Do

19:35

you have a few minutes that we

19:37

can talk through this? It doesn't mean

19:39

that you take responsibility for them, but

19:41

you take responsibility for leading the conversation.

19:43

There's a subtle difference. Because at the

19:45

end of the conversation, we always have

19:47

an action plan. So what will you

19:49

do differently so that what will you

19:51

do differently? Okay, you'll do X, Y,

19:53

and Z, and then we get our

19:55

planning done. And then we say, I will

19:57

be here to support you. And if things don't,

19:59

if this doesn't work out, we will

20:01

meet again to talk about how

20:03

else we can approach it. We're

20:05

always looking at problem solving, problem

20:07

solving, rather than blame, criticism, and

20:09

putting people down. So do you ever

20:11

have to fall in your sword and be like,

20:13

you know, is my fault but let's just start

20:15

again you know and just like really get that

20:18

just put it on yourself does that help i think

20:20

that's totally possible so as a leader

20:22

you may simply say you know i really

20:24

i really goofed up here and i'm

20:26

sorry that i offended you or i'm sorry

20:28

that i didn't do my part or

20:30

that my directions weren't clear so you own

20:32

what it is you won't and then

20:34

it invite the next step is like and

20:36

how can we figure this out so

20:38

that this doesn't happen again So

20:40

let's figure out and problem solve together versus me saying,

20:42

well, I'm going to put you on a performance

20:44

plan and this is what you need to do. And

20:46

if you don't do this and if you don't

20:48

do that, then you're out of here. Very

20:50

different. Okay. So what kind

20:52

of, I don't know, any interesting stories about

20:54

where you taught this and communication of Ruth? Oh,

20:56

I've got lots of stories. And one in

20:59

particular I think about is a financial advisor

21:01

that was meeting with their client. The client

21:03

called up and said, I'm glad that we're

21:05

meeting this afternoon. You did it all wrong.

21:07

We got to set this thing straight. Now,

21:09

the financial advisor thought, what did I do?

21:11

I sent her off some documents to review,

21:13

and that's all wrong. And so she realized

21:15

that she was all riled up. So she

21:17

calmed herself down using the breathing and the

21:19

setting. And when the client came in, she

21:22

was, let's talk about what that... was

21:24

and talk about what went wrong

21:26

here. A client said, well, there's everything

21:28

wrong. You told me that you were

21:30

going to walk me through all these things

21:32

that I need to do and here

21:34

you are. You send this document to me.

21:36

You send this paperwork to me and

21:38

you expect me to sign off. Michelle was

21:40

the advisor. She was, whoa, I get

21:42

it. Now you think that because I sent

21:44

these documents for you to review that

21:46

I expected you to sign off and I

21:48

wasn't living to my promise that we

21:50

walk through and talk through the decision. you

21:52

need to meet and she's, well, that's

21:54

exactly what you did. Michelle said, oh, okay.

21:56

I'm sorry. That was not my intent. And

21:58

perhaps I wasn't clear about what it is

22:00

that I wanted you to do with this

22:02

document. What I wanted you to do is

22:04

just to review them so that when we

22:06

meet, we can talk through what it is

22:08

you client. Oh, I, I

22:10

misunderstood. Michelle said, I misunderstood. So

22:13

what can I do? She said to

22:15

her client. to make sure this doesn't happen

22:17

again. Well, just be clear. When you

22:19

send your email or you send the communication

22:21

to say, please review, we'll talk about

22:23

it. Shell said, yep, I can do that.

22:25

And then she said to her client,

22:27

and what will you do if this happens

22:29

again? Client, sat back and thought. I'll do

22:31

exactly what I did in that I

22:33

will point out to you that I

22:35

don't understand and bring to your attention

22:37

what I think is a problem." She

22:39

goes, that's exactly it. Because when you

22:41

identify your problems and we look at

22:43

them together, we can find a solution.

22:45

Problem solved and what was a potential,

22:47

a breaking relationship turned into a trusting

22:49

relationship. Then both people could understand and

22:52

when problems zitterized, then they could talk

22:54

about it. Well, it's good. I mean, there's a

22:56

subset of people that can never admit they're wrong. probably

22:59

wouldn't work for them because they can never

23:01

admit they're wrong. But in general, it seems

23:03

like people have a hard time saying, ah,

23:05

I was wrong. I'm sorry, that kind of

23:07

thing. Is this enough to get both parties

23:09

to do it? Or does the stronger will

23:11

party usually have to say, oh man, I

23:13

screwed up. I'm sorry. And then say, like

23:15

you said, just use the dialogue you said,

23:17

but they have to start it. So

23:19

when I work with strong will, people I simply

23:21

say, so what is it that you want

23:23

to do? If you want to power over people

23:26

and strong arm them and not ever take

23:28

responsibility because we're all human and we all make

23:30

mistakes and sometimes we're messy, things happen. If

23:32

you want to do that, I will guarantee you

23:34

that you're not going to have employees that

23:36

will stay with you. You won't have staff that

23:38

want to work with you and you're not

23:40

going to have clients that will stay with you

23:42

because people don't want to be treated that

23:44

disrespectfully. And the second question I asked is what's

23:46

in it for you? to get into this

23:48

position where you know it all. What's that

23:50

about? And we begin to think,

23:53

if you're willing to look at how we

23:55

can work with that, but you have

23:57

to be willing to say, sometimes there is

23:59

more than right answer and it's not

24:01

just my answer. In this world, there's

24:03

many ways to approach a problem. There's many

24:05

options for solutions and we need to

24:07

understand that and be willing to go there.

24:09

If you're not, then I will guarantee

24:11

you that you're going to have people that

24:13

Don't want to work with you. That

24:15

won't refer you. That won't stay with you.

24:17

People don't want to be treated with

24:19

disrespect. They want to know that you know

24:21

your stuff and you're an expert in

24:23

what you do. I get that. But they

24:25

also want to know that you care

24:27

about them and you want to guide and

24:29

help them make the best decisions. And

24:31

when you spell them... What about in

24:33

some extreme environments, Lee? Let's say a prison. and

24:36

you're gonna get in trouble with the warden

24:38

and the correctional officers. Like, you would think, well,

24:40

they can do whatever they want. You're not

24:42

the prisoners, but then again, I'm sure things work

24:44

a lot better when they get the respect

24:46

and cooperation of them. Have you worked in those

24:48

kind of scenarios and what's the dynamics of

24:50

it? Well, I have not. Be honest

24:52

with you, I haven't really, I've never

24:54

worked in those environments where there

24:56

is a clear... chain of command and

24:59

a clear authority, subservient relationship. You've

25:01

got the wardens and the inmates and

25:03

the clear separation and a clear

25:05

distinct. And I'm not sure their model

25:07

is such that they can meet

25:09

in the middle. I don't know. It feels

25:11

like all is possible with the model, as far

25:13

as curious on how far you pushed it. But

25:15

you know, how far have you pushed it? Like,

25:18

what is some of the most extreme examples or

25:20

example of... We use this. Most

25:22

extreme example is currently I'm working with the

25:24

CEO who just doesn't like to be wrong.

25:26

and we're working and we're working but it's

25:28

like he makes the decision and the next

25:30

day he backpedals and then he blames the

25:32

staff for not doing what he asked them

25:34

to do so we take that conversation that

25:36

he's had and we do what we do

25:39

in autopsy on it is what I want

25:41

to say we deconstruct it and every step

25:43

of the way and say when you said

25:45

this this is the impact it had is

25:47

that what you want to be conveying well

25:49

no no no and then we go back

25:51

and rework it again and that's I think

25:53

the most effective way when people are

25:55

really um it's what I call their addicted

25:57

to being right. They have to be

25:59

right here. That's what they think the leader does.

26:02

That's what the owner does. That's what the CEO

26:04

does. And yes, you do

26:06

have. position of power when you're the

26:08

owner and the CEO, but you

26:10

can't get work done when you're not

26:12

working with other people. And so

26:14

the cost to you is that you

26:16

will have turnover. You will have

26:18

people that aren't going to want to

26:20

speak favorably. Your reputation will be

26:22

one of being a know -it -all and

26:24

that you're not easy to work

26:26

with. If that's what you want, then

26:28

you don't... You don't have to

26:30

change, but if you... See, this is

26:33

the whole thing, Rich. It's people's

26:35

willingness to simply say, so where am

26:37

I missing the mark and how I'm

26:39

talking with people and a willingness to

26:41

say, yeah, we'll look at that. Okay,

26:43

let's look at that. So we look

26:45

at the brain chemistry, what goes on

26:48

in your brain that has you say

26:50

this and how can you rework that?

26:52

And sometimes, Rich, it's just a subtle

26:54

slight shift of how we say things

26:56

that makes all the difference. You

26:59

know, it sounds like it. Where

27:01

can people get your book

27:03

and take the course

27:05

and incorporate this into their

27:07

lives? Yeah, thank you for asking.

27:09

So the book is on Amazon, and

27:12

I'm always on LinkedIn, so people

27:14

can connect with me on LinkedIn,

27:16

but we have a special link

27:18

for the people in your audience.

27:20

that they can click the link

27:22

and then get my free report.

27:24

It's called Conversations Are Your Competitive

27:26

Advantage. And it's a brief report

27:28

that's chock full of a little

27:31

bit of theory and the neuroscience,

27:33

but things that you can do to

27:35

turn your conversations around. Okay, is

27:37

there a book with it or just

27:39

a How's it out all course

27:42

or what? It's laid out as

27:44

a seven page. Here's some suggestions and

27:46

here's some ideas. You see, everything I

27:48

teach is based on principles. So here's

27:50

the principle. And here's how you can

27:52

think about it in a different way.

27:54

So it's sort of a guide to

27:56

the things that we've talked about. Yeah,

27:59

and Miriam had sent that over to you. Oh,

28:02

very good. There's a special link just

28:04

for the listeners that are on the call

28:06

that will listen to your show. Okay.

28:08

well, very good, Narrow. Well, Well, thank you

28:10

so much for coming on the podcast.

28:12

It's really cool. You're welcome. You've created the

28:14

system, you know? Yeah. and thank you

28:16

for having me. And yes, if Annie was

28:18

interested, I'm always happy to have a

28:20

conversation and to talk more about how the

28:22

system can help you lead conversations that

28:24

are not just good, but the trust building,

28:26

because that's where the difference happens. Excellent.

28:29

Well, thank you very much. You're welcome. If

28:31

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28:43

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