0:00

How can we channel the

0:02

intensity of our emotions, like

0:04

frustration, anxiety, love, into

0:06

creative power that impacts the

0:09

world? Welcome back, or

0:11

welcome to the Finding Mastery

0:13

podcast, where we dive into

0:15

the minds of the world's

0:18

greatest thinkers and doers. I

0:20

am your host, Dr. Michael

0:23

Gervais, by Trade and Training,

0:25

a high-performance psychologist. activist, and

0:27

frontman of the iconic genre-defying

0:30

rock band, System of a

0:32

Down. surge is known for

0:34

his dynamic vocals and thought-provoking

0:37

lyrics. He blends creativity, activism,

0:39

and mindfulness into his music,

0:41

poetry, and art in order to

0:44

inspire change, advocate for justice, and

0:46

explore the depths of human emotion.

0:49

In this conversation, we

0:51

dive deep into surge's

0:53

mindset, his journey. and

0:55

we explore how he

0:57

transforms emotional tension into

0:59

creativity and art. So

1:01

with that, let's dive

1:03

into this week's

1:05

conversation with Sirge

1:08

Tunkian. Sirge, this is

1:10

awesome. Thanks for having me,

1:12

Mike. Two things. One is,

1:14

I kind of can't believe

1:16

I'm sitting with you. Oh, come

1:19

on. Yeah, no, like I grew up

1:21

surfing, skating. I

1:23

love the edge of just about everything.

1:25

And there was just an

1:27

energy to three, four, five

1:29

bands that I loved. And this

1:31

is when I was, I don't know, 16,

1:34

17, 18 in that range there. And

1:36

what you stood for and the energy

1:38

that you brought, I was like,

1:41

I didn't even know what you're

1:43

saying. But I was like, there's

1:45

something here. And so I

1:47

just love that I'm here and

1:49

I'm love that our mutual friend.

1:52

Peter Park put us together. Absolutely.

1:54

I love Peter. He's the best.

1:56

I text him last night and

1:58

I said, Sarah just... coming on and

2:00

he says yeah we're talking about

2:03

it and I said I loved

2:05

his book his book was smart

2:07

and I love that you read

2:09

I did the audio version and

2:11

I just really appreciated it and

2:13

I said obviously smart super intense

2:16

passionate global citizen is working at

2:18

a system level no pun intended

2:20

here yet and I said is

2:22

he is kind of nerdy And

2:24

he fired back F. No, you

2:26

know, he's like he's so passionate

2:29

so intense like politically musically like

2:31

no way and he's also the

2:33

most humble and kind person It's

2:35

very kind of Peter, but I

2:37

am nerdy you I have to

2:39

tell you one of the last

2:42

text I just did was to

2:44

my friend Tom Morello legend yeah,

2:46

we have a game on Saturday

2:48

night and we're playing pirates Wait,

2:50

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold

2:52

on. You just like a turn.

2:55

You have a game. Well, it's

2:57

kind of like, you know, they

2:59

played D&D. I haven't played since

3:01

I was a teenager. A young

3:03

teenager, yes. So they were gonna

3:06

play D&D, but then they changed

3:08

it to a pirate's game. And

3:10

I was there for hours, and

3:12

I really enjoyed. how they played

3:14

it and I loved their company

3:16

so I really enjoyed it and

3:19

the pizza was awesome but I

3:21

didn't really I didn't really get

3:23

into the game at all like

3:25

I was just like the game

3:27

was kind of boring but I'm

3:29

going back because I love those

3:32

guys and it's fun being with

3:34

them but yeah I mean I

3:36

am a nerd I was a

3:38

four point of student in high

3:40

school and you know in university

3:42

and honors and all that but

3:45

you know I Yeah. Were you

3:47

a 4.0 student high school because

3:49

your parents were like, that's what

3:51

we do. We're coming to this

3:53

United States of America. great land

3:55

of opportunity and I know that

3:58

you've you've got a beautiful understanding

4:00

of our country from first generation

4:02

from Armenia so I do want

4:04

to get into all of that.

4:06

Was that because your parents were

4:08

like this is what we do

4:11

or did that come from inside

4:13

like no I love learning and

4:15

I this is amazing and it

4:17

could be a hybrid of course.

4:19

I think I was the older

4:21

son in the family I've got

4:24

a younger brother and I think

4:26

my mom specifically had a lot

4:28

of expectations from a very young

4:30

age so she would sit with

4:32

me with my homework and it

4:34

was something that we would do

4:37

together and there was a lot

4:39

of care taken into I mean

4:41

I'm talking about even when I

4:43

was a kid you know I

4:45

was born in Lebanon raised in

4:47

Los Angeles so even before coming

4:50

to the US but coming to

4:52

the US you know there's always

4:54

the challenge the language challenge and

4:56

you know you're kind of a

4:58

grade behind with Your language so

5:00

you got to catch up and

5:03

that kind of gives you even

5:05

more of a motivation to try

5:07

to outdo and So it's probably

5:09

a combination of the two. I

5:11

would love to talk spend our

5:13

time understanding How you hold the

5:16

tension between two states? You know,

5:18

it's like the tension between trauma

5:20

and trust the tension between intimacy

5:22

and frustration. The tension between humility

5:24

and masterfulness, like I want to

5:26

open those up like a bottle

5:29

of wine if you will one

5:31

at a time with you, but

5:33

to set the stage of why

5:35

I'm so interested in that is

5:37

like your music has so, and

5:39

it's happening right in this moment,

5:42

your music has so much intensity,

5:44

call it frustration, I don't know

5:46

if it's rage, you know, but

5:48

so much frustration slash intensity. And

5:50

I don't experience any of that

5:52

in you in this moment. Of

5:55

course you don't walk around pissed

5:57

off or frustrated, you know, and

5:59

I always thought the name of

6:01

your... band, system of a down,

6:03

I didn't understand it, and what

6:05

I ascribed the meaning of it

6:08

was you were pointing to a

6:10

system, a cultural system of a

6:12

downward spiral. And I don't know

6:14

the origin, so I'm happy to

6:16

talk about the origin with you,

6:18

but how do you hold those

6:21

tensions? Just talk about that concept

6:23

of holding tension for a minute.

6:25

Musically, I think when we first

6:27

started working as a band, There

6:29

was a lot of tension in

6:31

my life from family, a lot

6:34

of, you know, my parents were

6:36

going through this horrible lawsuit that

6:38

I kind of highlight in the

6:40

book. And there was just a

6:42

lot going on. And I think

6:44

that tension needed a release. Now,

6:47

music and the arts are the

6:49

perfect release for those type of

6:51

tensions for young people in their

6:53

20s, you know, teens to 20s.

6:55

It's a positive way of releasing

6:57

energy. we kind of referred to

7:00

it earlier. So that that start

7:02

that that's the beginning of how

7:04

it you know got married into

7:06

the music for me. How do

7:08

I told how do I hold

7:10

tension? Holding the tension. That's the

7:13

part that let me open this

7:15

up one more one more time

7:17

is that. So we're talking about

7:19

really emotional states. And you're a

7:21

highly emotional musician. Hold on, before

7:23

I take it any further. Can

7:26

you respond to that? Is that

7:28

accurate? I am in my highly

7:30

emotion. There are times where I'm

7:32

highly emotional, but I would say

7:34

that generally I try to contain

7:36

my emotions and not react to

7:39

them as much as I can.

7:41

That's it. Okay. So here's the,

7:43

here was the, the hypothesis. I

7:45

always say I'd rather react to

7:47

sports in sports and not in

7:49

life. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Because

7:52

my working hypothesis and why I

7:54

think... Our conversation can be really,

7:56

maybe, as we're going. powerful for

7:58

our community is because when emotions

8:00

come online, you pick it. It

8:02

could be love, it could be

8:05

frustration, it could be sadness, anxiousness.

8:07

When emotion comes online, for most

8:09

people that are untrained, the emotion

8:11

wins. The emotion runs the show.

8:13

And it's a little bit like

8:15

the metaphor of the elephant and

8:18

the rider. The elephant is the

8:20

emotion, and when an intense emotion,

8:22

Allah elephant wants to run, it

8:24

runs. and the rider is trying

8:26

to just hold on for dear

8:28

life, which is our cognitive processing.

8:31

And you're able to manage emotions,

8:33

I think, in an artistic way.

8:35

And right now, in a topsy-turvy

8:37

world, in a world that has

8:39

speed, intensity, high emotions, there's a

8:41

separation in the United States that

8:44

we're experiencing, that maybe we can

8:46

be a little bit better if

8:48

we know how to work with

8:50

emotions. And I don't know if

8:52

you're the... poster child, but you

8:54

certainly hold tension between opposing states

8:57

of being. And that's what I'm

8:59

really interested in how you do

9:01

that. Yeah, I remember, I don't

9:03

know if it was an Eckhart

9:05

toll book or wherever I saw,

9:07

emotions are like a, you know,

9:10

like the video library, each emotion

9:12

is like a video that you

9:14

check and you and then you

9:16

put back, you know, and you're

9:18

not, you are not the emotion,

9:20

you know, you are the seer.

9:23

you're watching the emotion and I

9:25

think in states where I am

9:27

more calm you know when I

9:29

meditate often then I don't react

9:31

as well this morning was not

9:33

one of them my son wait

9:36

wait say that when you read

9:38

when you when you are meditative

9:40

you don't react well I no

9:42

no I don't react in other

9:44

words I don't I don't emotionally

9:46

react because I'm in a state

9:49

of understanding what's going on across

9:51

me that I could look through

9:53

and see everything and not necessarily

9:55

emotionally react is what I mean

9:57

when I say beautiful beautiful yeah

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11:24

This morning, my son, we asked

11:26

him, because it's cold, we asked

11:28

him to put on a certain

11:30

pants, and how old? Ten, very

11:32

rebellious, which I love about him,

11:35

you know? I mean... But he

11:37

had to put that on, so

11:39

my wife and I like, you

11:41

have to put on those pants,

11:43

and he just had... the largest

11:45

meltdown like just And normally I

11:48

would just be like, not just

11:50

Meltdown, but he was very, very

11:52

aggressive. And normally I would be

11:54

like, let's try that again. That's

11:56

what you would say. Normally, that's

11:59

what you'd say. Normally, that's what

12:01

I want to say. I would

12:03

want to say, let's try that

12:05

again. What you want to express,

12:07

you're expressing something, which I understand.

12:10

Let's try to express that without

12:12

anger. I'm going to walk back

12:14

out. What do you really want

12:16

to tell me, without all this

12:18

drama? You know, that's what I

12:21

wanted to say. But this morning,

12:23

for some reason, I was in

12:25

that world as well. And I

12:27

just, he sucked his fucking lost

12:29

it. I was like, what the

12:32

fuck? Right, like, what would you

12:34

say to him? And then I

12:36

felt like an idiot, because I'm

12:38

the adult, right? So it happens,

12:40

like, you know, the ones that

12:43

get under our skin are the

12:45

ones that are closest to us,

12:47

usually, in every way, you know,

12:49

partners, kids, you know, parents, parents

12:51

and stuff. And it's harder to.

12:54

to have that kind of detachment

12:56

from the emotional aspect. But I

12:58

try, and I generally do, you

13:00

know, that just, if someone reacts

13:02

and someone has, you know, a

13:05

strong emotion, I mean, if it's

13:07

love, then obviously that, you know,

13:09

it's beautiful, go with it, but

13:11

if there's anger, frustration, I try

13:13

to see to the bottom common

13:16

denominator, what is it that's causing

13:18

this? It's important to be productive.

13:20

I'm a productive person. You're a

13:22

productive person. And it's important not

13:24

to stay in these states that

13:27

can kind of be just, you

13:29

know, I don't want to say

13:31

consequential, but something that breaks us

13:33

down and instead go, okay, let's

13:35

move on from this. What is

13:38

it that we're trying to solve?

13:40

I'd like solving problems, you know?

13:42

I like moving on from it,

13:44

you know? Not because I want

13:46

to deny the emotion or deny

13:49

the trauma, but because if you

13:51

get to the root of that

13:53

emotion and trauma and you deal

13:55

with that then you can move

13:57

on. I'm listening to sound logic

14:00

and I'm listening to somebody who

14:02

so first and foremost like as

14:04

a at a cognitive level I'm

14:06

like check oh yeah oh I

14:08

see what you do oh cool

14:11

and I'm watching sound logic step

14:13

by step on how you are

14:15

working through emotional processing and then

14:17

underneath the surface I'm feeling somebody

14:19

that is calm right now okay.

14:21

And then when I listen to

14:24

your music, I don't understand it,

14:26

but I feel it. I don't

14:28

know how to make sense of

14:30

where the lyrics came from, but

14:32

I have a sense of it.

14:35

So can you wrap those two

14:37

together? So music is an incredible

14:39

way of, as we were discussing,

14:41

just, exercising those emotions, getting them

14:43

out of you, right? So when

14:46

you're done, you're calm. You're you've

14:48

already... done your heavy lifting, those

14:50

emotions are out. So off stage,

14:52

I'm very relaxed, you know, on

14:54

stage, I, you know, you perform,

14:57

you do the thing, and you

14:59

live the emotion of the music

15:01

and the words that you've written,

15:03

you know, you live it for,

15:05

as an actor, would live it,

15:08

you know, on stage, because, you

15:10

know, if the script says he

15:12

angrily did this, then you're angry,

15:14

right? Like, you live those words,

15:16

you, you perform those words, those

15:19

words, but... you walk off and

15:21

you feel so much lighter. This

15:23

is cool because you're talking about

15:25

exhortizing, you're talking about training, you're

15:27

talking about a cathartic experience, and

15:30

I'm not sure that the person

15:32

who's not an art or sport,

15:34

right, and they are solving business-based

15:36

challenges, that they have this mechanism

15:38

in their life. Maybe they go

15:41

to the gym before or after,

15:43

maybe they do some sort of

15:45

artistic expression at some point in

15:47

their lives, but this idea that,

15:49

no, I get to... Flex in

15:52

press and stress and express and

15:54

express emotion. and then it's a

15:56

way to let go of them.

15:58

It also sounds like, so that

16:00

might be an insight from your

16:03

life that could be really, if

16:05

we unpack that, could be powerful

16:07

for people, how would you suggest

16:09

that people could do that in

16:11

a corporate environment? Wow. Is it,

16:14

it's got to be after, or

16:16

do you think it's, close the

16:18

door and there's something inside of

16:20

their office that could do? Anything

16:22

that you get lost in is

16:25

valuable. It's meditative. So for years

16:27

I did music and music helps

16:29

me get lost still to a

16:31

certain degree, but I've been doing

16:33

music for so long and I

16:36

do music for films and TV

16:38

and stuff. It's very, I don't

16:40

want to say regimented, but it's

16:42

very organized. I know what I'm

16:44

doing. Once I figure out the

16:46

palette that I want to use,

16:49

it's very logical. It's very... What

16:51

does that mean palette in music?

16:53

Creative palette. Instrument that you want

16:55

to use emotional colors that you

16:57

want to portray. When I started

17:00

painting, because I've been doing music

17:02

for so long, that feeling of

17:04

lost is less. And when I

17:06

started painting 10, 12 years ago,

17:08

I experienced that first feeling when

17:11

I first started writing music again,

17:13

which is just losing time, being

17:15

lost in something. So, I mean,

17:17

it's great to exercise, go to

17:19

the gym, and get that anxiety

17:22

out from a long business work

17:24

day or whatever, but you need

17:26

something that basically stops your mind.

17:28

you know, whether it's meditation, whether

17:30

it's art, whether it's doing something

17:33

that creates that space inside of

17:35

you, because that space inside of

17:37

you is necessary, because your mind

17:39

is always incessantly working. I can

17:41

tell you've done a lot of

17:44

work, internal work. Yeah, whether it's

17:46

meditation or formal therapy, I'm not

17:48

sure. But the words that you're

17:50

using are the evidence of like

17:52

the value of the inner experience

17:55

and the commitment to express it.

17:57

in the way that seems fitting

17:59

to you. Talk about your meditation

18:01

process for just a minute, because

18:03

this might be the reason you're

18:06

able to hold tension. so well

18:08

in multi-discipline or multi-factors you know

18:10

so so years ago when we

18:12

first started the band I was

18:14

I had a lot of anxiety

18:17

and and I was I was

18:19

seeing these kind of recurring daydreams

18:21

of just electronic equipment and stuff

18:23

in the shower when I would

18:25

be in the shower under hot

18:28

water and I just like there's

18:30

times I passed out like it

18:32

would it just had these weird

18:34

effects on my mind, on my

18:36

brain. And I was telling our

18:39

producer, my friend, Rick Rubin, about

18:41

them and he recommended a guru

18:43

to learn how to do transcendental

18:45

meditation. So, started doing transcendental meditation,

18:47

that led me into, you know,

18:50

mindfulness, a bunch of different books

18:52

from junk about Zint, Zintak Arto,

18:54

to, you know, Tignad Han, and,

18:56

you know, kind of just understanding

18:58

the spiritual world. You know, so

19:01

this is a synergy moment. John,

19:03

Cabot Zinn is a mentor of

19:05

mine. Oh, no way. Yeah, it's

19:07

amazing. And I never got to

19:09

spend any time with Teknot Han,

19:12

but he has been instrumental in

19:14

my becoming as well. That's awesome.

19:16

Yeah, John is, hey, John, amazing.

19:18

Wherever you go, there you are.

19:20

There you are. That was probably

19:22

the first book that I ever

19:25

picked up that really spoke to

19:27

me. Like I would read one

19:29

line and stop and stop and

19:31

feel it. read another line and

19:33

stop and feel it. Like, I

19:36

love it when that happens with,

19:38

you know, any type of transcription.

19:40

Okay, very cool. So meditation is

19:42

a big party practice. It is.

19:44

And I kind of over time

19:47

develop my own combination of body

19:49

meditation mixed with Native American spirituality

19:51

and sun salutations and transcendental meditation.

19:53

It's like, it's almost like this

19:55

poetry I say. And it starts

19:58

from the end of my toes

20:00

all throughout my body and then

20:02

gets into kind of gratefulness. the

20:04

day and you know the standing

20:06

or sitting sitting and then so

20:09

you connect your physical body to

20:11

a spiritual experience in a way

20:13

yeah yeah because I want to

20:15

feel my body first you know

20:17

like energize the body the chakras

20:20

feel things moving energy moving inside

20:22

like it wakes you up right

20:24

especially in the morning and then

20:26

thank the universe for my vision

20:28

you know and I I want

20:31

clarity in my vision I ask

20:33

for clarity I ask for intelligence,

20:35

wisdom, the things that I yearn

20:37

for to be better at everything

20:39

that I do, everything that I

20:42

am. When you say I ask

20:44

the universe, what does that mean

20:46

to you? Oh. Dead Sea Scrolls

20:48

apparently hid the power of visualization

20:50

in the form of prayer. All

20:53

11 world religions have some sort

20:55

of contemplative practice. And when I

20:57

say contemptible, I mean, a way

20:59

to contemplate and prayers the form

21:01

that most of them meditation is

21:04

obviously a similar word but your

21:06

origin influence from a philosophical standpoint

21:08

was Christianity yeah right still I

21:10

don't know I mean it's kind

21:12

of like there's truths in all

21:15

these books but there's no one

21:17

book that has all the truths

21:19

and that one book is us

21:21

that has all these truths. Very

21:23

cool. I remember the first time

21:26

I had the idea that it

21:28

was an intro to world religion

21:30

class as a freshman in college

21:32

and I was or sophomore or

21:34

something and I said to the

21:37

professor I said I like them

21:39

all. And he looked

21:41

at me and he's like, yeah,

21:43

and I said, I mean, if

21:45

you took this from Buddhism and

21:47

this from Confucianism and you took

21:50

this from Christianity and this from

21:52

Islam and like if you put

21:54

these things together and I mean,

21:56

these Zoroastrian principles, like, I mean,

21:58

they're foundational. And he says, how

22:01

would you do it? And this

22:03

is in front of like a

22:05

class. And I said, I don't

22:07

know, but I would like. I

22:09

want to line them all up,

22:12

get to the first principles of

22:14

each world religion, and then like

22:16

see if I can string some

22:18

dots together. And he says, okay.

22:20

He says, that's a good project.

22:23

Just curious, do you think that

22:25

you're smarter than Jesus, Buddha, Confucius,

22:27

and Mohammed. I said, no, no,

22:29

I'm not saying it. He goes,

22:31

well, you're acting like that. You

22:34

can pull. He's checking your ego.

22:36

Yeah, right. And I was like,

22:38

no, I just think it's all

22:40

beautiful. It's all beautiful. It's all

22:42

beautiful. It's all beautiful. Books they

22:45

talk about each other in some

22:47

of them, but so anyways That's

22:49

really cool. Yeah, I took world

22:51

religion and in college as well

22:53

I thought I thought it was

22:56

a very interesting class Yeah, it's

22:58

good. So okay. So your practice

23:00

is it something like five minutes

23:02

a day 20 minutes a day

23:04

I don't time it, but it's

23:07

probably more like 15 20 15

23:09

20 is it after you brush

23:11

your teeth I'm gonna be super

23:13

tactical for a moment I try

23:15

to do it as early in

23:18

the morning as early in the

23:20

morning as I can because you

23:22

know Well, the day gets busy

23:24

more than anything else, but I

23:26

rarely... I used to do it

23:28

at night as well now. I

23:31

started at night. Yeah. And then

23:33

I was missing this glow that

23:35

happens like this long tail glow

23:37

that I want to have during

23:39

my day. Yeah. And then John

23:42

Cabot Zinn, I was like, man,

23:44

I'm struggling to get it in

23:46

right now. And he says, do

23:48

it laying down in bed. Your

23:50

alarm goes off. Just take a

23:53

couple moments there. Yeah. Right. You're

23:55

not going to fall back asleep,

23:57

Mike. You need to get up

23:59

and go. Just take a few

24:01

minutes. Settle in, do some nice

24:04

breathing, do some gratitude work maybe.

24:06

And there's all types of scripts

24:08

that you could create and or

24:10

follow. But I've been doing that

24:12

now probably for five years. And

24:15

it's the first 10 minutes. I'm

24:17

already relaxed. I don't have to

24:19

work to kind of, that's one

24:21

of the primary reasons I like

24:23

meditation in the morning. I don't

24:26

have to work as hard to

24:28

quiet it down. Exactly. I like

24:30

it for the same purpose. Afternoons

24:32

when you're busy and stuff, it's

24:34

harder too. You know sit with

24:37

it and your mind's way more

24:39

busy and to comment down when

24:41

you were creating some of your

24:43

early music Did you have a

24:45

practice or were you? Tell me

24:48

about that I'm Trying to think

24:50

of the time frame. It might

24:52

have been after the first record

24:54

or around the first record Definitely

24:56

by the second record. Yeah, definitely

24:59

by toxicity because listening to the

25:01

lyrics you know, aerials or something

25:03

like life is a waterfall, swim,

25:05

what, what is it, life is

25:07

a lot of, drink from the

25:10

river, then you turn around and

25:12

put up our walls or something

25:14

like, it's very, there's a lot

25:16

of spirituality, steal this album, has

25:18

a lot of really cool spiritual

25:20

lyrics, that was so punk. Yeah,

25:23

yeah, I love that record. Yeah,

25:25

it's probably my favorite system record.

25:27

Is it? I think so. Yeah,

25:29

it's just so diverse, it's all

25:31

over the place. What was the

25:34

line on the waterfall, which was

25:36

something around, which was something around,

25:38

um... You know, we are the

25:40

river. No, hold on, how did

25:42

it go? The idea was that

25:45

we're the river and we rejoin

25:47

after we fall off the waterfall.

25:49

I don't have the lyric down.

25:51

Yeah, so like, think of each

25:53

of us as a drop in

25:56

that waterfall. We're one before that

25:58

waterfall, and then we're one again

26:00

after the fall, and that fall

26:02

is our life, our separation. See,

26:04

I didn't know that that middle

26:07

part, because I made up the

26:09

story. I always wondered why I

26:11

was not part of the waterfall.

26:13

like I get it like beautiful

26:15

like we're all part of this

26:18

river amazing and then we rejoin

26:20

I think was the word you

26:22

used right maybe I can't afterwards

26:24

but I was like well what

26:26

happens to the waterfall like I

26:29

didn't know it was you were

26:31

pointing to life I was like

26:33

yeah wait hold on that's that's

26:35

the the radical part yeah is

26:37

he saying we're rejoining so I

26:40

felt like you in my interpretation

26:42

is that like I didn't put

26:44

those two together like there was

26:46

missing like what actually happens over

26:48

the waterfall and we're terrified we

26:51

can hear the we can hear

26:53

the waterfall yeah we're in some

26:55

rapids and it's overwhelmed and it

26:57

feels like our head is barely

26:59

above water. We're working as hard

27:02

as we possibly can, and then

27:04

something, the milk is spilt, the

27:06

person cuts us off, the deadline

27:08

is missed, and then we, now

27:10

we're like, can't you just make

27:12

this right? And we point to

27:15

something outside of ourselves for the

27:17

reason we feel agitated, because we're

27:19

afraid to go over the waterfall.

27:21

And what I just heard you

27:23

say is, you gotta go over

27:26

the waterfall. The waterfall is a

27:28

whole thing. The waterfall to me

27:30

was basically describing our life because

27:32

we're separated. You know, those droplets

27:34

falling are separated. There you go.

27:37

We feel separated. And then when

27:39

we land back in the stream

27:41

or river, we're together again. So

27:43

our whole life, before I was

27:45

born, I was part of everything.

27:48

I'm still part of everything, but

27:50

we feel like we're separate. Got

27:52

it. So this takes on a

27:54

whole different dimension. That's pretty rich.

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off on a healthier note while

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supplies last. This insight that you

30:54

share in the book is that

30:56

it's really hard for another person

30:59

to really know another person. Yeah.

31:01

And I don't want to be...

31:03

depressing in that, but the idea

31:05

that like how can somebody even

31:07

my wife who knows me better

31:10

than any person on this planet,

31:12

and I have been as open

31:14

and vulnerable as a human can

31:16

be, as I can be. And

31:18

you're holding space in your insight,

31:21

which is, and does she know

31:23

everything? How can she? Right. And

31:25

so there's a, there's a, there's

31:27

a hidden dimension, even to me.

31:29

Sure, but, but that space is

31:32

necessary. Just like different flavors of

31:34

food is necessary, because if the

31:36

interaction. If it wasn't different enough,

31:38

life wouldn't be interesting. You know,

31:40

the richness of life, the diversity

31:43

of life is that space, that

31:45

difference. Okay, now I'm gonna take

31:47

two terms. Okay, I hear you

31:49

say that and it's super elevated

31:51

in thinking, and it's rich in

31:54

its tone of appreciating other people.

31:56

How do you square that with

31:58

the tension between the Turks and

32:00

their Armenians? How do you square

32:02

that? Good question. Yeah. Because... If

32:05

I can learn how you're doing

32:07

it, and maybe you're not doing

32:09

a nice job with it. I

32:11

don't know. But if we can

32:13

have that conversation, maybe we can

32:16

have a conversation about how the

32:18

political left and the political right

32:20

in the United States can navigate,

32:22

or there's so many folks that

32:24

have tension. But first, can you

32:27

take a pause and walk us

32:29

through the tension, the historical tension

32:31

between the Turks and the Armenians?

32:33

Right. Well. It's interesting because I

32:35

would say there is no historical

32:38

tension between Turks and Armenians. I

32:40

think during the following days of

32:42

the Ottoman Empire, these two people

32:44

that lived in close harmony with

32:46

each other, neighbors, friends, were ripped

32:48

apart by political systems to dominate

32:51

a Christian minority, first started by

32:53

the Ottoman Sultan, and then later

32:55

taken over by the... what we

32:57

call the young Turks, that's what

32:59

they were called, the political party

33:02

that took over in 1908, that

33:04

they organized and executed the Armenian

33:06

genocide, genocides of Armenia. of one

33:08

and a half, roughly one and

33:10

a half million Armenians, also Pontiac,

33:13

Greeks, and Assyrians. The- Wait, let's

33:15

pause here. Let's pause here. Okay,

33:17

so we've got, we've got a

33:19

party that formed in 1908, and

33:21

you're very clear that there was

33:24

a genocide. And history is clear.

33:26

And there's still not a, at

33:28

least to my awareness, a recognition

33:30

about it that is part of

33:32

the zeitgeist? By the country that

33:35

inherited the perpetrators. The, you know,

33:37

the sons and grandkids of the

33:39

perpetrators have not formally recognized it.

33:41

But that's also politics. That's Erdogan.

33:43

That's Erdogan's Turkey right now. Yeah.

33:46

So, and that, so has there

33:48

been a, Turkey has not had

33:50

a formal recognition? No. The US

33:52

has recognized that most European nations.

33:54

most South American nations most of

33:57

the world I mean most most

33:59

of I don't know if it's

34:01

most of the world but a

34:03

large part of the world has

34:05

formerly recognized including the United Nations

34:08

and all of that that there

34:10

was a genocide in what were

34:12

the years 19 1915 to 1918

34:14

yeah and 1.5 million you said

34:16

yeah yeah but to answer your

34:19

question properly is You were talking

34:21

about a tension between two people.

34:23

So the tension comes from a

34:25

historical injustice. And because that injustice

34:27

hasn't been properly addressed, that tension

34:30

exists. But it's less between two

34:32

people and more between those that

34:34

are deniers and those that aren't.

34:36

I have Turkish friends, amazing authors,

34:38

writers, directors, who recognize the genocide,

34:40

openly speak about it, even put

34:43

their own lives at risk and

34:45

stuff, and I love them, I

34:47

respect them. I, you know, they're

34:49

very creative people like us, you

34:51

know, and, um, and that has

34:54

nothing to do with ethnicity, you

34:56

know, it has to do with

34:58

a crime. international crime. And do

35:00

you square healing with recognizing it?

35:02

Of course, the first stage to

35:05

anything is awareness, right? Awareness. And

35:07

then if the perpetrator is unaware,

35:09

I don't think that healing is

35:11

beholden to the person saying, I'm

35:13

sorry, the perpetrator. Matter of fact,

35:16

it would be a dangerous proposition

35:18

in my mind that let's say

35:20

that This was this was naive

35:22

psychology as a best practice is

35:24

somebody sitting down and they've been

35:27

abused by a family member and

35:29

they say and the and the

35:31

psychologist says okay so what do

35:33

you think a plan for it

35:35

is I need to confront him

35:38

let's say in this case okay

35:40

you know this will be cathartic

35:42

this will right and I have

35:44

the courage and the clarity to

35:46

go do that that'd be a

35:49

nice moment for you to stand

35:51

up for yourself and do that

35:53

but what we know And that

35:55

was not, that was like thoughtful.

35:57

But what we know now is

36:00

that that perpetrator usually repurpetrates and

36:02

they'd give you the most insidious.

36:04

They say, what do you mean?

36:06

That never happened. Right. Denial. Denial.

36:08

To your point. And so now

36:11

a best practice is that the

36:13

other person doesn't need to see

36:15

me, understand me, recognize it, even

36:17

acknowledge that happened. My job is

36:19

to heal. And so, but now

36:22

I'm talking one to one. And

36:24

where this gets complicated, I think,

36:26

is that, like, if you and

36:28

I, if I was Turkish in

36:30

your Armenian and we're having attention

36:32

about the stuff and, and I

36:35

actually didn't, it was my great-grandfather.

36:37

Sure. And he taught me that

36:39

nothing ever happened. Right. I'm confused,

36:41

let's say, right? Yes. And I'm

36:43

like, why are you hung up

36:46

on this? Aren't we friends? Yeah.

36:48

I'm being a tool here. Come

36:50

on surge like can't we move

36:52

past that? Why are you still

36:54

holding on to this like right?

36:57

I'm I? I didn't do anything

36:59

and why you why you bring

37:01

this to me? Yeah, no I

37:03

I understand that. The thing is

37:05

that most Turks that were educated

37:08

in Turkey and not outside of

37:10

Turkey have that issue because they

37:12

were taught by a Orwellian version

37:14

of history. Or really, yeah, that's

37:16

interesting. Whereas, you know, and there's,

37:19

you know, I have a lot,

37:21

I've seen a lot of fans

37:23

throughout Europe that usually come up

37:25

to me and say, hey, I'm

37:27

Turkish, and until I left Turkey,

37:30

I didn't really know about the

37:32

Armenian, I didn't really know about

37:34

it. So incredible to hear some

37:36

stories like that. So, you know,

37:38

I think, you know, for me,

37:41

you know, justice is important. Like,

37:43

you were saying apology. What is

37:45

the value of an apology? Yeah.

37:47

You know, apology is the first

37:49

step, but without justice, you know,

37:52

I'll keep going. An apology doesn't

37:54

mean anything. Yeah, right. Oftentimes, apologies

37:56

is a mechanism to appease a

37:58

moment. Because people ask me what

38:00

would happen if Turkey apologized for

38:03

the genocide, you know, for example,

38:05

but just apologize. You know, it's

38:07

a great first step, but I

38:09

always say, well, imagine someone had

38:11

come to my house, you know,

38:14

killed my family, burned the house

38:16

down, I survived, I run after

38:18

them for 107 years, and they

38:20

finally turned around tired of being

38:22

chased by me and say, fine,

38:24

I'm sorry, what the fuck does

38:27

that mean? What a cool framing.

38:29

And so you're saying, this is

38:31

why my wife says, you know,

38:33

if I apologize for the same

38:35

behavior, let's call it, you know,

38:38

too many times, whatever it is.

38:40

And she's like, words and behavior

38:42

are different. Right. Words and actions

38:44

are different. So, uh, justice, you're

38:46

saying justice is necessary. unnecessary condition.

38:49

I would still hold my position

38:51

that justice is necessary. for change,

38:53

but you're healing you, the collective

38:55

you, can never be beholden on

38:57

another person's actions. I agree. Yeah,

39:00

so that's, I'm taking a highly

39:02

agentic position that you have agency

39:04

to govern and design your life,

39:06

even going through the conditions that

39:08

are like the most radical. Because

39:11

there will be relationships where there

39:13

won't be any resolution. That's right.

39:15

Yeah, planned and unplanned. And so

39:17

what does justice mean to you?

39:19

Before I wrote a memoir my

39:22

interest was to write a book

39:24

about the intersection of justice and

39:26

spirituality funny yes Yeah, because to

39:28

me they're almost synonymous They're not

39:30

the same thing, but they are

39:33

necessary causation and you know effects

39:35

in some ways You know because

39:37

I think you know, it's important

39:39

to live whether it's a environmental

39:41

way of looking at life in

39:44

terms of equitable environmental world that

39:46

we're living in. I shouldn't say

39:48

equitable, I apologize. An equilibrium within

39:50

our living on this planet is

39:52

necessary, you know, to deal with

39:55

the climate crisis, for example. An

39:57

equilibrium in our political world is

39:59

necessary for us to live in

40:01

a civil society. An equilibrium in

40:03

our relationships with each other is

40:06

necessary for us to live in

40:08

a peaceful. home or community, you

40:10

know, and without justice that equilibrium

40:12

doesn't exist. How does justice take

40:14

shape? Let's come down to the,

40:16

I love this thought because the

40:19

equilibrium, so we are the most

40:21

complicated ecosystem on the planet that

40:23

we were at least aware of,

40:25

like our intern, what's happening inside

40:27

our body is magically complicated and

40:30

it's been around for a couple

40:32

hundred thousand years, we still don't

40:34

really know. how our brain works,

40:36

how our body works. Because we've

40:38

created the illusion of time that

40:41

no other animal recognized. Oh, you're

40:43

taking me somewhere different now. Okay

40:45

good, pin it, pin that one,

40:47

we're gonna go back to the

40:49

illusion of time. And so, but

40:52

where would justice happen on the

40:54

equilibrium standpoint and or take it

40:56

to like justice back to like

40:58

governments or take it to individual

41:00

relationships and justice? Like we've seen

41:03

truth and reconciliation commissions in South

41:05

Africa. Yep. Right. So that's a

41:07

form of justice. Rwanda. We've seen.

41:09

you know, Germany, post-World War II

41:11

Germany, come to grips with its

41:14

own history and make whatever type

41:16

of remands or restitution toward the

41:18

Jewish people. You know, it's not

41:20

necessarily complete justice, but it's the

41:22

right intention and it's a form

41:25

of justice. If we're talking collectively,

41:27

you know, justice can play many

41:29

forms in that sense. You know,

41:31

I think we, as a people,

41:33

as Armenian people, for my people,

41:36

we need... that to heal further.

41:38

I mean, we can separate ourselves

41:40

and say that happened, you know,

41:42

and we forgive, but we don't

41:44

forget, you know. Justice is necessary.

41:47

I mean, it's not just justice

41:49

in terms of Armenia and Turkey,

41:51

it's more complicated because the present

41:53

is also volatile, because Turkey helped

41:55

Azerbaijan, you know, in their attack

41:58

of Nagorno-Raratar and the Armenians that

42:00

lived there, as well as Armenia

42:02

proper in 2021. And so for

42:04

us, that's like the memory of

42:06

the genocide and it kind of,

42:08

you know, repetitious occurring again in

42:11

a way. Can you take a

42:13

moment and open up your experience

42:15

right now with a conflict that

42:17

is taking place right underfoot, which

42:19

is Israel and Hamas? Yeah, it's

42:22

not just Israel and Hamas anymore.

42:24

It's also... Lebanon, you know, bombings

42:26

in Lebanon, now in Syria. I

42:28

think the whole Israeli-Palestinian issue obviously

42:30

is very contentious and, you know...

42:33

post-World War II especially and you

42:35

know there's what Hamas did in

42:37

terms of their attack is a

42:39

crime against humanity and obviously there's

42:41

an ICC decision against their leaders

42:44

would be leaders and ICC stands

42:46

for ICC the International Criminal Court

42:48

and obviously there's a standing judgment

42:50

against Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel by

42:52

the ICC as well and ICC

42:55

arrest warrant and for genocide as

42:57

well. And I think, you know,

42:59

I think they're both crimes against

43:01

humanity. I think what Israel has

43:03

done in terms of the bombings

43:06

in Palestine and the Palestinian territories,

43:08

Gaza, and even the West Bank

43:10

are criminal. I think the US

43:12

military support is very contentious as

43:14

well, and it's led to being

43:17

a huge issue in our recent

43:19

elections. There's an element of this

43:21

that is very much extremism, religious

43:23

extremism, on multiple sides. And, you

43:25

know, I understand the situation. I

43:28

understand the area. I'm from the

43:30

Middle East. I was born in

43:32

Lebanon, you know. It's a very

43:34

difficult, it's a very sectarian type

43:36

of area. But it doesn't have

43:39

to be. It doesn't have to

43:41

be. I think most people in

43:43

their hearts want peace, whether you're

43:45

Israeli or Palestinian. whether you're Lebanese

43:47

or Syrian, and I think it's

43:50

a disservice to humanity to have

43:52

right-wing governments anywhere. That was an

43:54

eloquent, succinct, clear take on something

43:56

that is emotionally charged. How do

43:58

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46:10

I hope you'll join us. Without

46:12

hope you have nothing. It's your

46:14

only, you know, it's your only

46:17

light in the sky. Is it

46:19

fair for me to say that

46:21

you've lived with trauma? Sure. I

46:23

think we all have. I do

46:25

too, but I don't want to

46:28

make an assumption. Yeah. Multiple types,

46:30

I'm sure. Yeah. Like your family

46:32

has gone through tremendous trauma. You

46:34

have seen things that most people

46:36

will never see. Probably. Probably. I'm

46:39

talking about your experiences and some

46:41

of the war. Oh yeah, yeah.

46:43

Yeah, when I was when I

46:45

was little I remember bombs falling

46:47

and crouching with my brother in

46:50

our bedroom at the beginning of

46:52

the Lebanese civil war in 1975,

46:54

but I didn't we didn't experience

46:56

that much of it. I know

46:58

I know people that lived through

47:01

it, you know, and we soon

47:03

left thereafter and immigrated to the

47:05

US, but I still remember that

47:07

haphazard feeling of whether a bomb

47:09

could... fall in our house even

47:12

though just a residential house and

47:14

that fear in a child I

47:16

think is really traumatic and it's

47:18

led me to really be against

47:20

any type of you know bombing

47:23

in urban areas because you know

47:25

of course there's more missile guided

47:27

guidance has gotten better with technology

47:29

and all that but man you're

47:31

still killing a lot of civilians

47:34

and you know and that's unforgivable.

47:36

go back to that tension between

47:38

hope and anxiety, hope and trauma.

47:40

How do you hold those two

47:42

together? Because trauma, post-traumatic stress disorder

47:44

is like in my mind, or

47:47

this. It's not right. It's not

47:49

the right quote-unquote label of a

47:51

set of symptoms. People that have

47:53

been through traumas, they fundamentally reorganize

47:55

their life to avoid being retromatized.

47:58

So it's a retrama avoidance set

48:00

of conditions. So. when you reconstitute

48:02

how you organize with the present

48:04

moment because of the trauma. There's

48:06

an incredible anxiety that sits with

48:09

that and it's it clouds out

48:11

space for hope So how do

48:13

you do how I fight it

48:15

through activism. That's how you do

48:17

it. Yeah. That's my head-on thing

48:20

You know I don't want to

48:22

see other kids being bombed it

48:24

bothers me You know I fight

48:26

it through activism and the hope

48:28

that I have is in you

48:31

know the love of my family

48:33

friends community and you know and

48:35

I think being hopeful is a

48:37

beautiful childish thing that we need

48:39

to do all the time. You

48:42

know, because children are hopeful. It's

48:44

the weariness, multi-layered difficulty of living

48:46

life as an adult that makes

48:48

that kind of charrs that hope,

48:50

that disintegrates, starts disintegrating that hope.

48:53

We always need that child-like play,

48:55

which is why it's important to

48:57

do an art. or something that

48:59

you get lost in as you

49:01

would when you were a child.

49:04

There's no difference there. When you

49:06

lose time, whether you're 60 or

49:08

6, you know, it's the same

49:10

experience. And we need that playtime.

49:12

Every year I design like an

49:15

intention, a grand intention for the

49:17

next 365 days. And the last

49:19

two years it's been the same

49:21

one, the year of play. Cool.

49:23

Because you get so little of

49:26

it probably. That's exactly right, and

49:28

I'm gonna run it back again.

49:30

Yeah. Yeah. Very important, very important.

49:32

When I don't get it, yeah.

49:34

I mean, have to, the reason

49:36

I do music is that, right?

49:39

Someone's paying me for it now,

49:41

but that's the difference, you know,

49:43

like, it's amazing. It's amazing, like,

49:45

you know, and when I don't,

49:47

when I'm not creative for a

49:50

while, whether it's painting or, Something

49:52

irks me, I'm not happy. Like

49:54

I'm not... Something irks me, I

49:56

need that play. I've always thought

49:58

of your music as... A form

50:01

of activism. Activism. You've been playing

50:03

too many video games, right? I've

50:05

always thought of it that way.

50:07

Is that an accurate assumption? Yes

50:09

and no. I think the, you

50:12

know, I'm, I was an activist

50:14

before becoming an artist. That's right.

50:16

So my activism kind of bleeds

50:18

through the music and, but system

50:20

of it down is no way rage

50:23

against the machine where all of our

50:25

songs are about. social justice or whatever.

50:27

We have funny songs and stream of

50:29

consciousness songs, you know, and the other

50:31

guys in the band help balance my

50:33

seriousness in that sense, although I am

50:36

very, you know, humorous with our lyrics

50:38

and stuff as well, but they always

50:40

make sure I don't go too overboard

50:42

and you know, we don't want to

50:44

be preachy and we want to be

50:46

a fun band at the same time.

50:48

So here's another form of attention, is

50:51

that and you opened your book talking

50:53

about an apology basically for

50:55

I think it was to your bandmates

50:57

and it was to people in

50:59

general, about your early position in

51:02

9-11. So I bring that forward because

51:04

it was such a beautiful, eloquent

51:07

way to start your book to really

51:09

know you. And so this activist

51:11

energy, you had an inside about, you

51:13

want to create change, go to the

51:15

people, and then here you are

51:17

stirring up people, at least in

51:19

some way. There's the fun stuff.

51:22

I know the intensity. That's what

51:24

I was gravitating toward. And then

51:26

you've also got this very warm,

51:28

thoughtful, kind part of you. So

51:31

I'm wondering how you string those

51:33

two together. Some philosophies would be,

51:35

quote unquote, by any means necessary.

51:38

Some philosophies would be, no, it's

51:40

a pacifist. You know, we're going to

51:42

win through peace. So how do you

51:44

hold the tension between those

51:46

two? which is the stirred

51:48

up activist, frustrated, demanding

51:50

of justice, and then the other

51:52

side, which is the kindness and

51:55

the seeing of the bigger picture

51:57

and the fragility of a one

51:59

person. I need a second for that

52:01

one. Yeah. When I first started

52:04

meditating, I mistook passivity for non-agression.

52:06

I loved when you shared that

52:08

insight in your book. So I,

52:10

you know, say that again, just

52:12

so it lands. When I first

52:14

started meditating, I mistook passivity for

52:16

non-agression. Or passivity for non-confrontation, I

52:19

should say. It's okay. Yeah. You

52:21

know. Like, hey, let's be cool.

52:23

Yeah, let's be cool. It's fine.

52:25

It's fine. You want to do

52:27

that? That's fine. You know, that's

52:29

like, yeah, I'm not going to,

52:31

that's not going to work. All

52:34

it does is harbor negativity inside

52:36

you because what you're doing, what's

52:38

happening is not just. So justice,

52:40

again, is a very important issue

52:42

here. You know, what's right and

52:44

what's wrong? It takes a lot

52:46

to what matters most to you.

52:49

When you know what you care

52:51

deeply about, you'll do whatever it

52:53

takes. Yeah. I will run right

52:55

in front of them, the biggest

52:57

bus you can imagine. To save

52:59

your family. Period. Yeah. And when

53:01

you use that as an emblem

53:04

for how we can conduct our

53:06

lives outside of a moment of

53:08

saving a family member, to like

53:10

what is intimately precious about how

53:12

we want to live our lives

53:14

and what we stand for? We

53:16

can go into any environment, just

53:19

about any environment, and stand for

53:21

something. But the first work is

53:23

like what really, really, really, really

53:25

matters to you. And that work

53:27

is hard to come by, because

53:29

it stirs so much up. So

53:31

maybe I could just pause and

53:34

say what really, really, really, really,

53:36

really matters to you. Love and

53:38

learning, the two important things that

53:40

people that had a near-death experience

53:42

came back to say why we're

53:44

here. How did you just search

53:46

for those two words? Well, you

53:49

kind of distill that everything that

53:51

you're living for in a way

53:53

into, you know, were to pick

53:55

two words, right? Love and learning.

53:57

Love of, or the being of

53:59

love? Love of money. Oh, no.

54:01

Yeah, just love. Just simple love.

54:04

60s love, yeah. And learning. And

54:06

is mindfulness meditation practices one way

54:08

for you to be more closely

54:10

connected to love? Absolutely. What else

54:12

do you do to be in

54:14

a state of learning more often?

54:16

I remind myself that the guy

54:19

I'm about to honkate in front

54:21

of me is me. Oh, that's

54:23

interesting. I always believe that the,

54:25

um, the biggest, again, we're the

54:27

river, right? We're at the waterfall.

54:29

We're in the waterfall. We're in

54:31

the waterfall. We're in the waterfall,

54:34

but but if we don't understand

54:36

that we are from the river

54:38

and we're going back to the

54:40

river, the complete river, then we're

54:42

screwed. You know, so. You know

54:44

I've made that mistake of taking

54:46

too long before passing the light

54:49

and it's actually a horrible example

54:51

because there are times you should

54:53

not get the guy in front

54:55

of you. But you know the

54:57

Bible says at the end we

54:59

are we will be separated into

55:01

the believers and non-believers. I think

55:04

the believers are those that know

55:06

that we're coming from that river

55:08

and ending in that river and

55:10

it's just a waterfall separating us.

55:12

And okay let's stay in the

55:14

esoteric. for just a moment. What

55:16

is the river? Consciousness, everything. More

55:19

aligned to the deep, deep ocean

55:21

of consciousness or more aligned to

55:23

Carl Young's collective unconsciousness. They're very

55:25

similar, but there's a slight tone,

55:27

tonal difference between the two. I

55:29

would see just everything. Everything. And

55:31

so... Universe, consciousness, all physical. So

55:34

we're not an accident. Running an

55:36

experiment here. There is a grand

55:38

design. No, I believe... There is

55:40

not just a grand design, but

55:42

I believe we each have a

55:44

purpose. What is yours? So trying

55:46

to figure that out, right? Every

55:49

day. Our purpose, you know, I

55:51

don't know. I think that to

55:53

create, to make positive change, to

55:55

be a voice for my people

55:57

that were voiceless, and to produce.

55:59

Like I like productivity. I'm addicted

56:01

to productivity. Yeah, you're really prolific.

56:04

I just love product. Yeah. when

56:06

I have something to do, it's

56:08

kind of, it's part of my

56:10

OCD nature that I was referring

56:12

to earlier, but when I do

56:14

something productive on a Sunday, which

56:16

usually are my least productive days,

56:19

because you're with family and, you

56:21

know, you're kind of just hanging

56:23

or going somewhere and whatnot. But

56:25

when I, I mean, put up

56:27

a painting or just something simple,

56:29

and it just feels so good.

56:31

How has purpose grounded you in

56:34

your art in your art? I

56:36

think once you know what your

56:38

vision is, then it's no longer

56:40

haphazard. Okay. Once you know your

56:42

purpose, then... Wait, purpose and vision

56:44

to me are different things. Different

56:46

things. And they are to you

56:49

as well. And I love what

56:51

you just did. I squarely, I'm

56:53

like, oh, I can't believe you

56:55

just stitched those together. I can,

56:57

of course, but like, my position,

56:59

when I'm trying to help somebody

57:01

is like, what do you, what

57:04

really, really, really, really, really, really,

57:06

really, really matters to you, and

57:08

you invoke an idea of a

57:10

beautiful compelling future state. That's the

57:12

vision. Yeah. What am I working

57:14

towards in that way? And what

57:16

is my purpose? Are two, when

57:19

those come together and you make

57:21

a fundamental commitment towards that, game

57:23

on. Yeah. Yeah. So, absolutely. And

57:25

in that sense, your vision is

57:27

your kind of download understanding of

57:29

your purpose. Keep going. Say that

57:31

maybe in another way or like

57:34

open that up. Your vision is

57:36

understanding. why you're here. So that

57:38

to me that sounds like purpose.

57:40

My purpose while I'm here is

57:42

to give voice to people that

57:44

didn't have a voice. Let's see.

57:46

Okay. My mechanism is through art.

57:49

Okay. I'm the vehicle because somehow

57:51

I've been given this ability to

57:53

be artistic and to move people

57:55

and I'm going to go to

57:57

the people to help give voice.

57:59

Okay. So that's my mechanism. My

58:01

vision is that my people are

58:04

flourishing. My vision is that my

58:06

family flourishes my vision is that

58:08

the world understands the river yeah

58:10

the waterfall and the coming back

58:12

together again I don't know I

58:14

don't want to put any words

58:16

I just gave three kinds of

58:19

good point so when you think

58:21

about a compelling beautiful amazing future

58:23

that you want to work towards

58:25

when you close your eyes and

58:27

by the way this is like

58:29

this is one of the great

58:31

gifts I think we can give

58:34

to our loved ones I want

58:36

to close my eyes and I

58:38

do it on a regular basis

58:40

with my son, for my son.

58:42

What do I believe is possible

58:44

for him? What is a vision

58:46

for him? And, and, oh, you're

58:49

in it now, like, if you

58:51

just thought about a family member,

58:53

and or you thought about yourself,

58:55

like what is the vision you

58:57

have for yourself? What comes up

58:59

for you? Well, you had me

59:01

focused on family. Let's go family.

59:04

Yeah, let's do that. So, you

59:06

know. I, you know. Unfortunately, I

59:08

fear for our kids' future really

59:10

badly because of the climate crisis.

59:12

And every year that it gets

59:14

warmer, every year with everything that

59:16

we're dealing with, I think to

59:19

myself, in 20 years, when my

59:21

son is 30, what kind of

59:23

world is he going to be

59:25

living in? Is he going to

59:27

have to live indoors? What just

59:29

happened to your voice? I don't

59:32

know. Did you hear it? No.

59:34

Yeah. What are you feeling right

59:36

now? Yeah. Yeah. Concern. Yeah. And

59:38

it's and it's in your body.

59:40

So yeah. Yeah. Okay. And the

59:42

vision, if you, when you get

59:44

quiet, is like, I am afraid

59:47

of what the vision is going

59:49

to turn into it if we

59:51

don't activate. Not just if we

59:53

don't activate, but you know, Rachel

59:55

Carson's book, Silent Springs, been around

59:57

since the 60s, everyone's been telling

59:59

us what's going on. And you

1:00:02

look at all of these, you

1:00:04

know, cop meetings and, you know,

1:00:06

all of these environmental meetings and

1:00:08

there is no. proper constructive response

1:00:10

to the climate crisis. There isn't.

1:00:12

So it's that that makes me

1:00:14

worried. It's not because I don't

1:00:17

want to envision a better world

1:00:19

for my kids, but unfortunately I

1:00:21

don't see it. When you are

1:00:23

connected to the fear of what

1:00:25

could go wrong, which is basically

1:00:27

anxiety in some forms is a

1:00:29

highlight reel of a future state

1:00:32

that could be disastrous. And it

1:00:34

becomes anxiety when we run that

1:00:36

tape kind of wildly uncontrolled on,

1:00:38

you know, like, okay, we know

1:00:40

that when you close your eyes

1:00:42

and you see and you use

1:00:44

imagery of a future state that

1:00:47

from a sports psychology standpoint, it's

1:00:49

a radical tool left on discipline

1:00:51

or unchecked. It's so easy to

1:00:53

have a fear state run that

1:00:55

script as opposed to a discernment

1:00:57

about what you're working towards. Okay,

1:00:59

so positive, quote-unquote negative imagery. when

1:01:02

you feel that anxiousness how do

1:01:04

you work with it to be

1:01:06

able to navigate so it doesn't

1:01:08

this is back to holding the

1:01:10

tension it doesn't run over you

1:01:12

yeah and you become immobilized yeah

1:01:14

from from the state usually productivity

1:01:17

helps with that you you want

1:01:19

to make an effort toward fighting

1:01:21

whatever fear that you have so

1:01:23

you fight fear well maybe in

1:01:25

terms of climate you know change

1:01:27

it's such a large you know

1:01:29

worldwide thing it's hard to have

1:01:32

an impact but you know I

1:01:34

think trying to have an impact

1:01:36

on that is important, you know,

1:01:38

individually and collectively. So I think

1:01:40

about that, making positive change in

1:01:42

that sense. But in any other

1:01:44

aspect, I usually just attack the

1:01:47

problem head-on. Yeah, you do. And

1:01:49

try to get down to the,

1:01:51

you know, the base of what's

1:01:53

going on, understanding it, and just

1:01:55

fighting for it, whether it's... awareness

1:01:57

or recognition having to do with

1:01:59

the genocide or things happening today,

1:02:02

you know, and that's a scourge.

1:02:04

I come back to genocide because

1:02:06

it's my family's big pain, right?

1:02:08

It's the giant pain, the community

1:02:10

pain, and it's happening today, and

1:02:12

we still haven't learned that lesson

1:02:14

as a global community. How do

1:02:17

you hold the tension between that

1:02:19

intolerance for the injustice? and the

1:02:21

sense of peace that you have.

1:02:23

Good question. They stem from the

1:02:25

same source. I think activism and

1:02:27

fighting for something comes from understanding

1:02:29

that we're all connected and that

1:02:32

we need that equilibrium. It comes

1:02:34

from spirituality. I had the honor

1:02:36

years ago I mentioned in the

1:02:38

book as well of meeting the

1:02:40

Dalai Lama and asking him two

1:02:42

questions, one on camera for a

1:02:44

film. And I asked him about

1:02:47

what is the intersection of justice

1:02:49

and spirituality and he gave me

1:02:51

a funny answer. He basically did

1:02:53

a double negative and he basically

1:02:55

said something like to live in

1:02:57

a world of injustice would be

1:02:59

spiritually unhealthy or something like that.

1:03:02

Thank you. Yeah. And he laughed

1:03:04

with the belly roll. Yeah, when

1:03:06

I thought about it though, it

1:03:08

was a simple answer, but it

1:03:10

makes complete. sense and it's very

1:03:12

truthful. But my second question, and

1:03:14

it was the last question of

1:03:17

our meeting because he had a

1:03:19

speech to give at UPenn University.

1:03:21

Pennsylvania. And I said, if we

1:03:23

can assume that civilization is over,

1:03:25

what we've been living for 10,000

1:03:27

years, what's next? And he looked

1:03:29

at me like, fuck you, dude.

1:03:32

I've got like four minutes. I

1:03:34

got to go give a speech.

1:03:36

No, he looked at me like,

1:03:38

come on. He actually said something

1:03:40

like, come on. This is what

1:03:42

you say for last like, you

1:03:44

know, this is a heavy, but

1:03:47

you know. And I remember him

1:03:49

speaking vividly about the need to

1:03:51

feed the southern hemisphere. based on

1:03:53

climate change, based on wars. I

1:03:55

remember, Moby asked him, he was

1:03:57

one of the artists that, you

1:03:59

know, like myself, that were meeting

1:04:02

with him. He asked him if,

1:04:04

if you didn't have the job

1:04:06

of being the dilemma, what would,

1:04:08

what job would you want? And

1:04:10

he said something with the climate,

1:04:12

which was very interesting. Well, that

1:04:14

is interesting. Yeah. For a long

1:04:17

time. And this was maybe 10

1:04:19

years ago or so. Might might

1:04:21

have thought something with neuroscience, because

1:04:23

he's so aligned aligned. If people

1:04:25

knew what you know from your

1:04:27

lived experience, how would they be

1:04:29

just a little bit different and

1:04:32

a little bit better? It's hard

1:04:34

for me to say, you know,

1:04:36

because everyone has their own lived

1:04:38

experience, everyone has their own accumulation

1:04:40

of life, right? I don't know.

1:04:42

It's hard for me to actually

1:04:44

answer that question. Yeah, okay. It's

1:04:47

totally fair. I would think that

1:04:49

you've lived a really interesting life,

1:04:51

and you've expressed. emotions and thoughts

1:04:53

that, you know, come from a

1:04:55

place. I would have imagined that

1:04:57

you would have gone somewhere, you

1:04:59

know, as a system framing and

1:05:02

said, like, go inside. Like, get

1:05:04

quiet. Get honest. And it will

1:05:06

take place, whatever it is from

1:05:08

there. It just seems presumptuous. It

1:05:10

does in what ways? Well, to

1:05:12

give that type of advice in

1:05:14

a way. I actually don't like

1:05:17

advice. It's interesting that you want

1:05:19

to call it. Yeah. Yeah, no,

1:05:21

I think I was I was

1:05:23

asking for advice and you're chin

1:05:25

checking that idea right now like.

1:05:27

I don't want to give advice

1:05:29

is what you're saying. Yeah, I

1:05:32

mean, unless someone is asking me,

1:05:34

right? Like, in a way, we

1:05:36

all react to our own stimuli

1:05:38

of life experiences, and it's hard

1:05:40

for me to know what someone

1:05:42

else would react with my own

1:05:44

experiences, like my own little hard

1:05:47

drive of, you know, or whatever.

1:05:49

I just, you know, I have

1:05:51

a pension for justice and I

1:05:53

have a pension for egalitarian principles.

1:05:55

you know, and that comes from

1:05:57

the Armenian genocide and searching for

1:05:59

justice for my people and my

1:06:02

grandparents, you know, that's been my

1:06:04

experience as a young adult becoming

1:06:06

an activist. But once I became

1:06:08

an activist, I became an activist

1:06:10

of many things, because that was

1:06:12

the little door that opened, you

1:06:14

know, to me, the world of

1:06:17

inequality, you know, whether it's racial

1:06:19

inequality or labor inequality, economic inequality,

1:06:21

environmental inequality, environmental inequality, environmental inequality,

1:06:23

environmental inequality, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:25

environmental environmental, environmental, environmental environmental, environmental

1:06:27

environmental environmental environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:29

environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:32

environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:34

environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:36

environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:38

environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental, environmental,

1:06:40

environmental, environmental animal inequality and cruelty

1:06:42

and all of the above like

1:06:44

you just start becoming so aware

1:06:47

so sensitive to everything. Are there

1:06:49

some small behaviors that you would

1:06:51

hope people could do that if

1:06:53

they wanted to be a little

1:06:55

bit better for the planet a

1:06:57

little bit better for animals a

1:06:59

little bit better like there's some

1:07:02

small behaviors that you just, tell

1:07:04

me more, smile. What does that

1:07:06

do? Yeah. When you meet someone,

1:07:08

even if you're feeling like shit,

1:07:10

give them... the beauty of a

1:07:12

smile. That's it. If you can't

1:07:14

do anything else, just do that.

1:07:17

That's really cool. It's very kind.

1:07:19

Well, no, it's very effective. When

1:07:21

you open a door for someone,

1:07:23

even if they're rushing and angry,

1:07:25

they respond. Not to you, but

1:07:27

to the next person that needs

1:07:29

a door open to. If it's

1:07:32

within the same time period, I've

1:07:34

noticed. It's a simple observation. It's

1:07:36

funny because one of the examples.

1:07:38

I give when people ask. like

1:07:40

what is gratitude training? When we

1:07:42

go through a training of gratitude,

1:07:44

it actually is designed to light

1:07:47

up a different circuitry in your

1:07:49

brain. You know, it's a bit

1:07:51

of an inoculation to anxiety or

1:07:53

something else, right? And there's good

1:07:55

research connected to the potency of

1:07:57

a gratitude practice. What do you

1:07:59

mean? Well, so the exercise is,

1:08:02

you know, set out to like,

1:08:04

be connected. while you're experiencing your

1:08:06

life to small little things that

1:08:08

you're grateful for. So there's a

1:08:10

bunch of ways to do gratitude

1:08:12

training. One is like in the

1:08:14

morning just run through things you're

1:08:17

grateful for but feel them. Yeah,

1:08:19

that's cool. The other is like

1:08:21

in real motion in real time.

1:08:23

And the example I give often

1:08:25

is and then you want to

1:08:27

clock it when it's happening, just

1:08:29

an awareness and an observation of

1:08:32

it, clock it. And at the

1:08:34

end of the day if you

1:08:36

have the discipline to write it

1:08:38

down, to the emotion that's also

1:08:40

connected to it. For example, somebody

1:08:42

held the door open for me

1:08:44

and we made eye contact and

1:08:47

connection. So I use that moment

1:08:49

often. I like to, when I

1:08:51

can give it, when I can

1:08:53

open a door from somebody. And

1:08:55

I like when there's a moment

1:08:57

when somebody holds it open and

1:09:00

there's just a moment of connection.

1:09:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. But even

1:09:04

if they're not looking at you,

1:09:06

they're just doing it because that's

1:09:08

what they know they're supposed to

1:09:10

be doing. It's the right thing

1:09:12

to do, you know, you know?

1:09:15

That's still cool. That's still cool.

1:09:17

Yeah. So all right, I think

1:09:19

that I could go on and

1:09:21

on and on with you. Me

1:09:23

too. Yeah, thank you for the

1:09:25

warmth, the thoughtfulness, the depth that

1:09:27

you've created. And I'd love to

1:09:30

give you just some quick hits

1:09:32

to respond to. Almost like a

1:09:34

forcing function as a reductionist, which

1:09:36

I am not, but just for

1:09:38

fun. Okay. So I'll say a

1:09:40

thoughts, STEM, and then you just

1:09:42

roll with it. Okay, give me

1:09:45

a second. took a breath. Yeah

1:09:47

for what word you go or

1:09:49

what was that for? I didn't

1:09:51

go anywhere. I just wanted to

1:09:53

be clear to hear what you're

1:09:55

going to say more clearly. Very

1:09:57

cool. That's probably the most telling.

1:10:00

embodied example you could

1:10:02

give of how you

1:10:04

hold tension so well

1:10:07

is that you're coming,

1:10:09

you're coming to this

1:10:11

moment and anchoring an

1:10:13

authentic way to what

1:10:16

is calling for your

1:10:18

response. That, I probably

1:10:20

don't need to ask

1:10:22

any more questions. Okay,

1:10:24

all right. It all

1:10:27

comes down to... My

1:10:29

vision is? Changing? Relationships are? A

1:10:32

way of understanding ourselves. Money is?

1:10:34

A tool? Success is? Succeeding at

1:10:36

your vision. Or I should say

1:10:38

purpose since you taught me that

1:10:40

it's actually purpose. No, both are

1:10:43

cool. Both have different energies about

1:10:45

it. Yeah, definitely. I could nod

1:10:47

my head to both of those

1:10:49

for sure. Okay, the good life

1:10:52

is marked by simplicity. The balance

1:10:54

between performance and doing is complicated.

1:10:56

I'm more interested in being or

1:10:58

doing. You got me at a

1:11:01

crossroads. Yeah, that's the big one.

1:11:03

Hmm. I'm a slave of doing,

1:11:05

even though I should be more

1:11:07

into being. I think we find

1:11:09

that intersection, when we find that

1:11:12

intersection, it is where the fullness

1:11:14

of us comes forward. Yeah, right,

1:11:16

like, but I also, can I

1:11:18

talk or should I just go?

1:11:21

Yeah. Arnold Schwarzenegger's documentary, he said,

1:11:23

my dad used to say be

1:11:25

useful. I found that to be

1:11:27

tremendously profound. Be useful. Like that's

1:11:30

fucking awesome. It is. You know,

1:11:32

it's really powerful. Because being useful

1:11:34

is not just useful to yourself

1:11:36

and your family to society, the

1:11:38

planet, the world. Be useful. Don't

1:11:41

be a worthless. Well, I spend

1:11:43

part of the year in New

1:11:45

Zealand, so we're... there's just like

1:11:47

that word don't be a worthless

1:11:50

man yeah there's we throw that

1:11:52

around a lot yeah okay so

1:11:54

if you could name a boat

1:11:56

what would you name it if

1:11:59

I named a what a boat

1:12:01

a boat yeah oh man I

1:12:03

puke on so many of them

1:12:05

pukey my son loves to go

1:12:07

fishing and I take him and

1:12:10

I know I'm gonna be sick

1:12:12

every time it's like my I

1:12:14

don't know what you call it,

1:12:16

but it's my torture, but I

1:12:19

do it because I love him.

1:12:21

So it's like every time I

1:12:23

go, I'm like, all right, we're

1:12:25

going. And you know, you got

1:12:28

a gear up for it. No

1:12:30

matter what I take, no matter,

1:12:32

drama mean, like nothing helps, bro.

1:12:34

Good, dad. Yeah, it's my torture,

1:12:36

self-torture. I just, I want to

1:12:39

say thank you for what you

1:12:41

stand for, thank you for what

1:12:43

you bring to the the surface

1:12:45

and the way that you do

1:12:48

it. Thanks man. Thanks for the

1:12:50

chat. Here's what to expect in

1:12:52

our next episode. We delve into

1:12:54

a profound conversation with former NFL

1:12:57

quarterback Ryan Lee. Ryan opens up

1:12:59

about his meteoric rise in football.

1:13:01

The intense pressures of professional sports

1:13:03

and his personal battles with addiction

1:13:05

and public scrutiny that led to

1:13:08

his fall from grace. This raw

1:13:10

and inspiring episode delves into resilience,

1:13:12

radical personal growth. and the journey

1:13:14

to redemption. Tune in on Wednesday,

1:13:17

March 12th. All right, thank you

1:13:19

so much for diving into another

1:13:21

episode of Finding Master with us.

1:13:23

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