0:00

In this fast evolving business landscape,

0:02

how do leaders turn setbacks

0:04

into opportunities for growth? Welcome

0:07

back, or welcome to the Finding

0:09

Mastery podcast, where we dive

0:11

into the minds of the

0:13

world's greatest thinkers and doers.

0:15

I'm your host, Dr. Michael

0:17

Jervais, by trade and training

0:19

a high-performance psychologist. And today,

0:21

I'm really excited to welcome

0:24

Deb Cup, who embodies the best

0:26

of leadership. I do not say that

0:28

lightly. Deb is the president of

0:30

Microsoft Americas. It's a huge

0:32

job now. And I've had an

0:35

up close view of how she

0:37

works. She comes alive at the

0:39

intersection of staying customer-centric while

0:41

being able to scale teams

0:44

within highly complex business landscapes.

0:46

Deb is fun. You're going to

0:48

hear that. She's amazing to be around.

0:51

She brings the best out of her

0:53

teams. She brings the best out of

0:55

me. She's earned her resilience. and it

0:57

is no wonder why her teams

0:59

perform in a world-class way. If

1:01

you are curious about building a

1:03

career that's both purpose-driven and high

1:06

performing, or how to lead with

1:08

resilience and empathy, this

1:10

conversation is packed with actionable insights

1:13

and wisdom. And a quick note,

1:15

if you find value in these

1:17

conversations, I would love for you

1:20

to take a moment to leave us

1:22

a rating and a review on Apple

1:24

Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening. your

1:26

feedback helps us reach more

1:29

people to grow this incredible

1:31

community. So let's jump

1:33

right into this week's episode

1:35

with the inspiring Deb Cup. Deb,

1:38

Deb, this is so much fun to

1:40

sit with you. I'm so excited to

1:42

be here. Yeah, this is great. I've

1:44

been excited about this for weeks.

1:46

Have you? Yes. That's really good.

1:49

I love spending time with you.

1:51

Ditto. And you know, you have so much

1:53

to offer, obviously inside of... the big job

1:55

you have at Microsoft, but the way that

1:57

you contour... your life and the vibrance that

2:00

you have when you walk into a room,

2:02

that's something I want to open up to

2:04

better understand like what is that psychology that's

2:06

sitting right underneath that? Yeah, so we'll do

2:09

that as we go. Okay, let's just start

2:11

at the top like sure like how are

2:13

you? I'm great. I'm great. Yeah. It means

2:15

I'm getting energy from what I'm doing. It

2:17

means that I'm surrounded by people I enjoy.

2:20

I'm actually just coming off of a couple

2:22

days with customers and that gives me such

2:24

joy and energy. I'm fascinated by what they

2:26

do and how they do it. So I

2:29

feel like when I'm learning, when I'm spending

2:31

time with people, I love, when I'm getting

2:33

energy from the work that I'm doing, I

2:35

feel great. Energy from the work I do

2:38

feels like something that I think most people

2:40

would say, oh, I want that. Yeah. Is

2:42

it about the fit or is it about

2:44

your psychology, whatever you are going to do,

2:46

that you would carry that model with you?

2:49

I think fit is important. so that you're

2:51

in a place doing a thing that you

2:53

believe you can give to. Okay. So for

2:55

me it has to be something where I

2:58

feel like I'm contributing and that I'm learning.

3:00

So I think fit is important. But I

3:02

think fit is important. But I also think

3:04

it's what you bring. So it's weird. I'm

3:06

one of those people that says like, how

3:09

have I been so lucky that I've had

3:11

so many jobs that I love? And it

3:13

can't just be the job, right? So there's

3:15

something about sort of how I think. you

3:18

would naturally bring something to that environment that

3:20

allows you to feel the way that you

3:22

do and kind of shape your thoughts and

3:24

your words in a way that brings the

3:27

energy that I know you from. Yeah, so

3:29

there's like an interaction, but you're saying that

3:31

there's something I'm doing that I feel like

3:33

I want to contribute in a certain way.

3:35

Yes. And the environment, I'm always looking for

3:38

environments that are kind of... bouncing that back.

3:40

Yes, so and I can tell when there's

3:42

an environment that's not necessarily bouncing that back

3:44

in the way that I want and when

3:47

that happens I find the need to move

3:49

to a different environment so if I feel

3:51

like the environment isn't giving me the space

3:53

to be me. There you go. And I'm

3:55

not interested in being in that environment. So,

3:58

all right, there's probably, that's like a fundamental

4:00

first principle for you. Yes. 100%. Even when

4:02

you just said that. Yes. It's an authenticity

4:04

thing. I just, and you know me well

4:07

enough to know that I just, I show

4:09

up the same way, I don't, it doesn't

4:11

matter who I'm talking to. If I'm talking

4:13

to someone who, my waitress or waiter, if

4:16

I'm talking to waiter, if I'm talking to

4:18

my waitress or waiter, if I'm talking to

4:20

my family, if I'm talking to my family,

4:22

I'm talking to my family, I'm talking to

4:24

my family, I'm talking to my family, I'm

4:27

talking to my family, I'm talking to my

4:29

family, I'm talking to my family, I'm talking

4:31

to my family, I'm talking to, I'm talking

4:33

to my family, I'm talking to my family,

4:36

I'm talking to my family, I'm talking Yeah,

4:38

she was. She was positive. She was a

4:40

realist too though, which I loved. Like I

4:42

think she's a, you know, a good example

4:44

of hardworking, tough upbringing, really sort of grounded

4:47

on family and love and support, but realistic

4:49

about sort of challenges that life will bring.

4:51

That makes sense. Did mom and dad go

4:53

through hard times? Definitely. financially, always sort of

4:56

challenged. While you were growing up? Yes. So

4:58

my mom was one of eight kids. My

5:00

dad was actually just one of two kids,

5:02

but I would say my parents were always

5:04

struggling. It was never easy for them financially.

5:07

So I think it was always sort of,

5:09

I've always saw the hard work and always

5:11

respected what they put into it and that

5:13

the family always came first. So even if

5:16

they couldn't afford it, that like the kids

5:18

need to have races. get what they need

5:20

to be successful? How do we make sure

5:22

that we continue to support them? How do

5:25

we get to their games? You know, all

5:27

that kind of stuff. I wonder how that's

5:29

shaped the way that you lead? Because you

5:31

come from an optimistic, grateful place. Yes. And

5:33

it sounds like you're really connected to your

5:36

family of origin. Yes. Right? And when you're

5:38

talking about it now, what do you feel?

5:40

What is the emotion? I'm afraid I'm going

5:42

to cry. I'm afraid I'm going to cry.

5:45

I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry.

5:47

I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry.

5:49

I'm going to cry. Tell

5:51

me more. I think it's you

5:53

realize what people give up for

5:55

you. That's it. Yeah, I think

5:57

what I'm watching and feeling is

5:59

what modern leadership is by the

6:01

Yeah. This is it. It's not

6:03

putting on a front and like

6:05

power and control. That's the way

6:07

of the dodo. It's like using

6:09

your emotions to be honest with

6:11

yourself and to not lose your

6:13

faculty. Totally. Right. You you're flooded

6:15

with emotions right now. Yeah. And

6:17

can you also think clearly? Totally.

6:20

I think I can. How do

6:22

you do? I'll be determinant of

6:24

that. Yeah. How do you do

6:26

that? I feel okay feeling emotional

6:28

about things. Does that make sense?

6:30

Like I feel lucky to feel

6:32

grateful. You know, look, I think

6:34

we're all sort of in some

6:36

ways you're born with certain DNA

6:38

in terms of how you, your

6:40

capability, your skill sets, some of

6:42

those things are just innate. So

6:44

I also feel like, oh good.

6:46

Well, I was lucky enough to

6:48

be given. the pieces to work

6:50

with. And then, you know, you

6:52

have your own work to kind

6:54

of make that come to life

6:56

in the way that you want

6:58

it to. That's right. But I

7:00

don't think everybody necessarily was always

7:02

given sort of the same pieces.

7:04

So I also feel a lot

7:06

lucky that like, hey, I have

7:08

these pieces that I can put

7:10

together in a way that are

7:12

creating where, you know, where I

7:14

am today or what I've been

7:16

able to do. So what was

7:18

that quiet voice? I think the

7:21

quiet voice is always like, can

7:23

you hang in? Can you keep

7:25

it so you don't get super

7:27

emotional? But you're always like, but

7:29

you're staying in it. Do you

7:31

see what I mean? Like you're

7:33

not breaking it to say like,

7:35

don't, like, don't create a wall

7:37

so that you don't feel the

7:39

emotion, but let it flow so

7:41

that you can, you can still

7:43

be you, you can still be

7:45

authentic, but you can still maintain

7:47

sort of. a dialogue without falling

7:49

apart. Is that make sense? Yeah,

7:51

it's that second narrative that's happening,

7:53

usually most of the time for

7:55

people, that I'm fascinated by. So

7:57

we're having a conversation, words are

7:59

coming out of our mouth, and

8:01

there's also a conversation. I'm having

8:03

with myself. What's your conversation? Oh,

8:05

like am I going to be

8:07

able to really understand you? Oh,

8:09

fun. Okay. The other part of

8:11

the conversation is, like, okay, how

8:13

far to go with the emotion

8:15

piece with you? Yeah. Right? And

8:17

so, because I have this thing,

8:19

like, I really value authenticity and

8:22

what it means to be honest.

8:24

Yep. And then I know that

8:26

the world isn't quite ready for

8:28

people to. present with

8:30

emotion. Yes, correct. Although we crave

8:32

it and we love it. Yes.

8:34

And so I'm trying to at

8:36

the same time also take care

8:39

of like your experience like yes

8:41

creating enough space for you to

8:43

go wherever you want. Yeah. But

8:45

also not feel like you have

8:48

to go somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. So

8:50

well I love that you said

8:52

that because I think there's a

8:54

there's a super interesting balance of

8:56

and like also let's throw in

8:59

there that I'm a woman. Yeah.

9:01

So you're always in the back

9:03

of your mind going. Oh, it's

9:05

a woman being emotional. So can

9:08

a woman handle these hard things?

9:10

Because look, they're also showing emotion.

9:12

Now, for me, I could care

9:14

less. Because now I might have

9:16

cared 10 years ago. I don't

9:19

care now. So I feel like

9:21

if you see emotion, and I'm

9:23

a woman, obviously, I think that's

9:25

OK. And what's really neat is

9:28

the way people react. So what

9:30

I've found fascinating. is when I

9:32

have emotion and people see it,

9:34

the way they react to me

9:37

generally is insanely positive. Which is

9:39

interesting. Now I'm sure there's others

9:41

who are quietly reacting differently and

9:43

that's okay too. I agree with everything

9:45

you just said. And it's flawed in

9:48

the way that it begins. And the

9:50

beginning is that we ought not have

9:52

emotions. for whatever reasons because of the

9:54

weakness narrative or whatever. Yeah. And that

9:56

was designed. by people who didn't know

9:58

how to work with them. However, emotions

10:00

are so uniquely human. And the ability

10:02

to have feelings, a private experience, and

10:05

to decide whether to pull that forward

10:07

or not. When you think about modern

10:09

leadership, how do you think about it?

10:11

Because I think about the feelings and

10:13

emotions coming forward. Totally. And I've got

10:15

a second part of it. But how

10:17

do you think about it? I think

10:19

it's all about connection. I think that

10:21

leadership is about understanding what people need

10:24

to be successful. and creating space for

10:26

them to do it. So it's about

10:28

kind of creating where are we trying

10:30

to go, how are we trying to

10:32

get there, and then what do you

10:34

need in order to help us create

10:36

that path for you? So you're actually

10:38

anchored to some really powerful research there.

10:41

So that in the world of science,

10:43

like there's a check, check, check, yeah.

10:45

Okay. And then how does that actually

10:47

materially show up? Like in your day-to-day

10:49

engagements conversations, your rhythm of business, how

10:51

do you do? How do you operationalize?

10:53

Yeah, so I think it's a lot

10:55

of things. So I think it's first

10:57

you have to be super clear about

11:00

what you want for people But and

11:02

I think clarity is everything so it's

11:04

everything and I don't think people I

11:06

think people underestimate how important it is.

11:08

So it's repeating over and over again

11:10

what that North Star might be. So

11:12

what are we trying to do? Chief

11:14

repeating officer. Yes, and even you can't

11:17

stand here in your voice anymore because

11:19

it's like how could they have they

11:21

heard this and you realize you have

11:23

to keep saying it. So I think

11:25

one is sort of setting the expectation

11:27

of what's needed and what you want.

11:29

And is that strategy or is that

11:31

relationship connection culture? I think it's all

11:33

of it. Yes. Yes. And if you

11:36

were to tally up the number of

11:38

times a week. five days in there

11:40

that you're speaking to the connection relationship

11:42

culture piece or you're speaking to vision

11:44

direction mission strategy tactics kind of the

11:46

the craft of business how would you

11:48

wait those two I think it's a

11:50

wildest guess for you probably no I

11:53

think it's the same because it's all

11:55

50 yeah it's we together. Let's just

11:57

say we're saying, okay, we land forecast

11:59

as we think about our quarters, we

12:01

spend a lot of time thinking about

12:03

tactically how we're going to execute against

12:05

that forecast. I asked questions around how

12:07

people are feeling about it. So I

12:09

want to understand is there stress in

12:12

the system, are there blockers that are

12:14

making them uncomfortable even in the conversation

12:16

so that I can't get to, if

12:18

I feel like I can't get to

12:20

a real answer or if someone is...

12:22

surface with me, I can tell pretty

12:24

quickly that there's some fear somewhere that

12:26

I have to break down. So I

12:29

think the conversation would go something like,

12:31

you know, what is our expectation? Let's

12:33

make that clear. What does the company

12:35

need from us? What are our people

12:37

need from us? What are our customers

12:39

need from us? So let's get clear

12:41

about what we have to go deliver.

12:43

How are we going to go do

12:45

that? And then it's about what do

12:48

I need to unblock? How do we

12:50

help people feel confident? training opportunities? Are

12:52

we enabling people the right way? So

12:54

in the creating space, in sport we

12:56

talk about front loading our skills training,

12:58

mental skills training, physical skills training, and

13:00

technical skills training. so that we have

13:02

the right capabilities to be able to

13:05

do it on demand and maybe in

13:07

an artistic way when you know the

13:09

game is on. Okay, how do you

13:11

ahead of time create the space? I'm

13:13

thinking you're going to point to the

13:15

relationships, but how do you create the

13:17

space for people to be honest? And

13:19

this is what I'm really asking is

13:21

how do you, what do you do

13:24

to speak truth to power for your

13:26

people to do that? I have to

13:28

do it first. So I think it

13:30

is and it's a journey, right. People

13:32

who have worked with me for a

13:34

while understand who I am, so there

13:36

is no fear, because they recognize that

13:38

it is a safe space, even if

13:41

it's something that I might not want

13:43

to hear. They've seen me react to

13:45

situations already, or I might be hearing

13:47

something I don't want to hear. But

13:49

I think I have to model it

13:51

first. Are you modeling speaking truth to

13:53

power or modeling being a great listener

13:55

to them? I'm modeling both. So I

13:57

tend to be the person who will

14:00

speak truth to power when nobody else

14:02

wants to. So I will be the

14:04

one that will step into something that

14:06

is super uncomfortable in large audiences when

14:08

other people won't do it. Where does

14:10

that come from? I have no fear.

14:12

Yeah, you do. We all have fear.

14:14

I have some, but I don't have

14:17

fear. I'm not afraid to get fired

14:19

to get fired. Okay. Where did that

14:21

come from? Good question. I mean, I

14:23

guess it's a mom, dad, coach, teacher.

14:25

You know what, maybe all of those

14:27

things. I think it's when you play

14:29

sports, you know, I played through division

14:31

one, so I'm not like, you know,

14:33

not a professional athlete obviously, obviously, but

14:36

you, your whole life is sort of

14:38

geared towards practice, repetition, losing. I've learned

14:40

how to lose. So I think it

14:42

came from that. I think it's always,

14:44

you just, you just, you get up

14:46

the next day, you get up the

14:48

next day, you get up the next

14:50

day, you get up the next day,

14:53

you get up the next day, you

14:55

get up the next day, and you

14:57

get up the next day, and you

14:59

get up the next day, and you

15:01

get up the next day, and you

15:03

get up the next day, and you

15:05

get up the next day, and you

15:07

get up the next day, and you

15:09

get up the next day, and you

15:12

get up the next day, and you

15:14

get up So yeah, you've got a

15:16

whole history of figuring things out. Yes.

15:18

When it doesn't go according to plan.

15:20

Yep. And so many of us feel

15:22

anxious that it's not going to work

15:24

out. And then when it doesn't work

15:26

out, feel a bit gutted and don't

15:29

want to look inward, but so then

15:31

blame others. That's a pretty average approach

15:33

to life. Yeah. It's a recipe for

15:35

average. Yeah. Ungrowth average in every way,

15:37

you know. It's one of the great

15:39

insults in this room. You're so average

15:41

in every way. Oh God. So you

15:43

speak truth of power, you're not afraid

15:46

to get fired. Yep. Okay. So if

15:48

there's an absence of fear there, it's

15:50

that there's some other commitment that you're

15:52

making. And so what is that more

15:54

fundamental commitment that you've made? It's just

15:56

do the right thing. According to whom?

15:58

According to me. Yeah. Okay. This is

16:00

where it gets really tricky. Because the

16:02

person saying something that doesn't sound right.

16:05

to you. Correct. They probably think it

16:07

sounds right to them. They definitely do.

16:09

Yeah. Right. Yep. And if they're saying

16:11

something that they don't think is right

16:13

to them, that's a whole nother kind

16:15

of camera. That's like, yeah, that's a

16:17

real problem. That's a real problem because

16:19

they've swallowed something from the board or

16:22

whomever and they don't really believe it

16:24

and they're gonna layer it down so

16:26

they don't get fired. Yes. Okay so

16:28

let's just assume that they believe that

16:30

we should go 15% we should push

16:32

our boat off 15% from doc and

16:34

you're like whoa. Yep. Okay and you

16:36

do it in a public way. Yep.

16:38

Can you open up like how you

16:41

go about doing that? Yeah. And I

16:43

just want to ground it that first

16:45

you've made a promise to speak from

16:47

a place that. you're not abandoning your

16:49

intuition, you're not abandoning the fears that

16:51

are, I'm not, so you're not abandoning

16:53

what you think is right to play

16:55

it safe. It comes from a belief

16:58

that I'm in a role that people

17:00

count on me to speak truth to

17:02

power. So I'm a voice and I

17:04

have to use the voice. And if

17:06

I don't use the voice, I'm letting

17:08

myself down and I'm letting other people

17:10

down. Now, how do I do I

17:12

do it, your question? Yes. Carefully. Super

17:14

carefully because you don't want to be

17:17

a jerk. It's not about exposing people.

17:19

It's about creating a different point of

17:21

view. So it might be in the

17:23

context of 15% I might say, well,

17:25

let's think about this for a minute

17:27

and use an example. Here's an example

17:29

that I, you know, an experience that

17:31

I've had in my world. It's always

17:34

about, you know, here's a customer experience.

17:36

Let me help you understand the experience

17:38

from the seat of the customer. Are

17:40

you challenging me right now? I'm just

17:42

giving you a perspective. So like, just

17:44

giving you a point of view. Well,

17:46

okay, look, we've thought a lot about

17:48

this. We're very clear, 15%. I might

17:50

go 14, but you're talking about 2%.

17:53

I am. And have you really thought

17:55

about this? I have. Okay. Then I

17:57

need to understand in a private setting,

17:59

or do you want to talk about

18:01

it now in front of everybody? Whatever's

18:03

more comfortable, we can do either or.

18:05

Well, I don't like either of these,

18:07

because because we talked about 15. Speak

18:10

openly about the things that we're worried

18:12

about. Yeah, was this because like... you

18:14

know this is a budget cut coming

18:16

your way has nothing to do with

18:18

that it has to do with doing

18:20

the right thing on behalf of the

18:22

customer and that's what we're here for

18:24

so when I was going we were

18:26

just slipped into role play what what

18:29

was the could you were playing along

18:31

yeah totally yeah and then what do

18:33

you feel in your body with that

18:35

type of I sort of love it

18:37

you you do like it a little

18:39

bit more yeah part of it is

18:41

I appreciated good debate, by the way.

18:43

You do. I do. And it's not

18:46

always a good debate. So when someone

18:48

is refusing to sort of, that wasn't

18:50

necessarily a good debate, because the person

18:52

was refusing to go anywhere. I was

18:54

being kind of the stubborn, like my

18:56

backs against the wall, and I'm not

18:58

moving. Yeah, yeah. But I appreciate when

19:00

someone will allow good debate, because I

19:02

think I learn from it. So there's

19:05

something in their brain that is holding

19:07

them to the 15% in that is.

19:09

then I can perhaps help them understand

19:11

why I think it's not 15%. So

19:13

I think there's a journey in that

19:15

that is about learning. And I also

19:17

think you create some more trust with

19:19

people. Like if you do it right,

19:22

someone who even you're having a debate

19:24

with, you both walk away from it

19:26

feeling a little more, I think you

19:28

build trust if you do it the

19:30

right way. And respect. Yeah. I really

19:32

appreciate that you're taking care of. the

19:34

position you're taking care of the position

19:36

you're taking care of their their ego

19:38

in some way like and I'm not

19:41

saying that we need to protect ego

19:43

but there is a sensitivity to like

19:45

which you do no one wants to

19:47

look stupid and when they're trying to

19:49

share something right and then but what

19:51

I've learned is that the most honest

19:53

intrepid Ford pushing frontier you know loving

19:55

people is that they're more committed to

19:58

the truth of something and like wait

20:00

hold on what are you saying yeah

20:02

No, no, I already went down this

20:04

path. Okay, good. I'm glad you brought

20:06

it up. Thank you. But, like, 15%

20:08

it is. Like, even if it's not,

20:10

it's not, it's like, no, we need

20:12

to speak it to make sure that

20:14

we're actually wrestling with the right stuff.

20:17

Or you go, you say, listen, I

20:19

think it's 12%. Oh my God, I

20:21

was thinking it was 17. Okay, so

20:23

I was thinking it was 17. Okay,

20:25

so I was, you think even more?

20:27

You think, or even less, the 12%?

20:29

Wait, tell me more. However, there's a

20:31

time and place for it. 100%. And

20:34

I am super careful about that. You

20:36

have to be super careful. You have

20:38

to know the dynamic. You have to

20:40

know the people. There are certain people

20:42

that you do not do that with

20:44

in a group. You allow them to

20:46

make the comment. You take it up

20:48

afterwards. You have to know that. So

20:51

I think that's something I'm fairly good

20:53

at is I can read the room.

20:55

Your social IQ is like, if there

20:57

was a 200, it'd be 200. And

20:59

how is your emotional IQ? I think

21:01

it's pretty good. It's really high. Yeah,

21:03

no, you have, you have, you have,

21:05

you have both of those, we haven't

21:07

done a task, but it's just the

21:10

way it feels around you, that you

21:12

would be like in the upper quartile

21:14

or upper percentile for all three, intellectual,

21:16

social, and emotional. Intellectual for me is

21:18

like, how quickly can you do something

21:20

with new information? Yeah. Emotionally is how

21:22

well can you understand your emotions work

21:24

with others. intelligence is to understand the

21:27

context of what's happening yes and navigate

21:29

that well and all of those of

21:31

attention to those those are all trainable

21:33

yeah they're totally trainable and I think

21:35

if you can model it hopefully you

21:37

can help people to see what is

21:39

possible and I think that's one thing

21:41

I one of the things that drives

21:43

me crazy is people who say like

21:46

well you can't change that or that's

21:48

never going to get better how do

21:50

you know that I think it's just

21:52

I think people sometimes throw in the

21:54

towel like time out Let's go figure

21:56

out what's the issue. with what's working

21:58

and is there a way for us

22:00

to do this differently or better and

22:03

nine out of ten times there are

22:05

and sometimes there aren't like let's be

22:07

clear you're gonna run across the people

22:09

that are just their brick walls you're

22:11

not gonna get through them then you

22:13

gotta figure out how to go around

22:15

them in a way that is not

22:17

gonna make them furious which is also

22:19

something we have to go figure out.

22:22

Tricky waters. Okay on the social bit

22:24

yeah do you have any frameworks that

22:26

you work from to

22:28

help others understand, to help others understand

22:30

like how you navigate social. I mean,

22:33

I don't know if I have an

22:35

official, I'll tell you how I think

22:37

about it, I don't know if it's

22:39

an official framework. I mean, it's my,

22:42

I guess, I think about it in

22:44

the context of sort of what, what's

22:46

at stake, what is the environment in

22:48

which the conversation is happening, what does

22:50

the other person win or lose, or

22:53

think they're winning or losing. And you

22:55

think a lot about how that particular

22:57

person operates in that particular environment. Definitely

22:59

not a bull in a China shop.

23:02

Like there's a sensitivity to the whole

23:04

thing. No. No. That never works. Yeah.

23:06

And then that's a that's an ego

23:08

thing. I think the bull in the

23:10

China shop. Yeah. And you don't have

23:13

an ego. No. I mean there's always

23:15

somebody smarter. There's always somebody better. There's

23:17

always somebody. That's who I want around

23:19

me. I want people who are. way

23:21

smarter than me, that are more capable

23:24

than me, that have more potential than

23:26

me. That's the best. That's how I

23:28

learn. So when I say ego, this

23:30

is how I think about it, I

23:33

do want to hear how you think

23:35

about it, is that what that means

23:37

is that their primary purpose is to

23:39

look a certain way, is to be

23:41

seen a certain way. That's what really

23:44

ego is. And you have a different

23:46

purpose. That's not your purpose. It almost

23:48

feels like that you don't entertain that

23:50

at all. It's really refreshing. Who has

23:53

the energy? I don't know. Yeah, I

23:55

mean, no, I don't think anyone wants

23:57

it, but when you've gone through heavy

23:59

stuff, there's like, how am I going

24:01

to protect me? So when you think

24:04

about purpose, your purpose is not to

24:06

look a certain way or be seen

24:08

a certain way, what is your purpose?

24:10

It's to create opportunities for people to

24:13

be their best. That's it. Like I

24:15

just, like I get so much joy

24:17

when I hear from someone 10 years

24:19

ago who says, I will never forget

24:21

how you helped me by the way

24:24

you just encouraged me, challenged me, challenged

24:26

me. gave me the space to be

24:28

crazy one day because I just couldn't

24:30

stand it. You know, those are the

24:33

things that, that's it. Like the rest

24:35

of it doesn't matter. Like if they

24:37

say, I'm better for the five minutes,

24:39

I was with her. My God, that's

24:41

a home run. Of all the purposes

24:44

that you could have in life. Yeah.

24:46

You want to create space for people

24:48

to be their very best. It just

24:50

makes me, it gives me energy. Why

24:53

the word space? Because I think people

24:55

need it. And I think a lot

24:57

of people are afraid to take the

24:59

step. So the space to use their

25:01

imagination sounds like an inch, you know,

25:04

like how you think about it. But

25:06

so when you, first and foremost, you

25:08

were using your imagination for what you

25:10

could try to conjure up for her,

25:13

what you think would be. Okay, do

25:15

you, is that like a real time

25:17

thing that's happening or is it after

25:19

a conversation or engagement? when you're thinking

25:21

about that person on the drive home,

25:24

it can be all of the above.

25:26

Okay. So like sometimes I'm sitting in

25:28

a meeting with somebody and I'll think

25:30

man, they would be great at X.

25:33

Yeah. Or I've worked with them for

25:35

years and I think, oh I've seen

25:37

all these incredible skills, they would be

25:39

great at Y. So sometimes it's one

25:41

or it can be both, it can

25:44

be a combination of, yeah. And when

25:46

you share that with people, what are

25:48

you looking for when you share it

25:50

with them? and think

25:52

about it. And they might not want

25:55

whatever the thing is, and that's fine

25:57

too. I think I'm just looking for

25:59

them to... Give themselves a chance. Yeah,

26:01

so for me, that's like the calibration

26:03

moment where you share an idea of

26:06

something that feels big, or different, or

26:08

grand, and it's watching how they tilt

26:10

their head to it. Like, is it

26:12

like back, like what? Or is it

26:14

like, whoa, really? You know, and that

26:17

calibration moment, I think, is really cool.

26:19

I had one a month ago, where

26:21

I mentioned somebody to someone who works

26:23

for me, and they were like, it

26:25

was like, And at first it was

26:28

this face of like, ew. And then

26:30

I recognized it was not ew. It

26:32

was more like, could I really do

26:34

that? And then I know the person

26:36

super well, so I knew it took

26:39

them time to sort of think through

26:41

what I was saying. And then it

26:43

became a lean-in. You know, it was

26:45

just one of those things where it

26:47

was like out back in. So it's

26:50

kind of fun just to sort of

26:52

watch. You have a moment in your

26:54

life where somebody did that? considering something

26:56

and then someone would call and say

26:58

hey you should try this and I'd

27:01

be like huh like for me I

27:03

think the first thing for me is

27:05

always like I had like a like

27:07

let me think about what that would

27:10

be and I go to sort of

27:12

like will it challenge me will it

27:14

bring me joy and will I create

27:16

impact and those are my three things

27:18

challenge joy and impact yes yeah no

27:21

no finances no no they work itself

27:23

out got it I really believe that

27:25

yeah if someone were like do it

27:27

for free, I'd be like, no, to

27:29

be clear. So finances matter. But in

27:32

my brain, that sorts itself. Yeah, so

27:34

I've got a Venn diagram of three.

27:36

And for me to be engaged in

27:38

a project, is it going to be

27:40

meaningful, impact? Is it going to kind

27:43

of move the needle in some way?

27:45

Is it going to be fun? Do

27:47

I want to do it with these

27:49

people? Like is it energizing? And then

27:51

does it financially make sense? Yeah. And

27:54

does it financially make sense. And it's

27:56

okay, like if there's no money on

27:58

the table, it's going to make some

28:00

impact and it's going to be a

28:02

lot of fun. I'm like, great. I

28:05

know that I can't do all of

28:07

those. I can't say. yes all those

28:09

right but at least I know what

28:11

I'm getting but yeah if there's only

28:13

one of those like it's a lot

28:16

of fun yeah like that was when

28:18

I was 16 that's right systems thinking

28:20

and emotional sensitivity okay so emotional IQ

28:22

and system thinking where do you think

28:24

on that spectrum you you lie because

28:27

I feel like I'm right in the

28:29

middle I know I'm sorry is that

28:31

about it yeah well you do both

28:33

yeah I think you probably your genius

28:35

superpowers probably on the social emotional peace

28:38

But you don't struggle with systems thinking.

28:40

I mean, I'm also, like, I don't

28:42

know if I said this, but part

28:44

of it is the accountability, too. Oh,

28:46

we didn't do that. That's a big

28:49

driver for me. Okay. And sort of,

28:51

and for people I work with and

28:53

for foreign who work for me. Okay.

28:55

So this whole thing kind of started

28:57

when I said, like, how do you?

29:00

Yeah. Okay. And you didn't bring up

29:02

account, or I missed accountability. Yeah. Okay,

29:04

so this is how I do it.

29:06

Praise publicly. Coach privately for the most

29:09

part. How do you do accountability? Because

29:11

that time, I don't, I haven't seen

29:13

great models with that. I've seen the

29:15

overly positive, we're not even going to

29:17

address it, we're going to be better

29:20

tomorrow, and I've seen the overly aggressive,

29:22

that's not good enough, get your stuff

29:24

together. Okay, so the sweet spot is

29:26

a little bit lacking. Let me try.

29:28

I'll give you an example and you

29:31

can tell me whether maybe that'll tell

29:33

you how I do it and whether

29:35

it makes sense Go back in time

29:37

terrible quarter. So here is how I

29:39

did it. We didn't meet the expectations

29:42

of the company. Therefore like we moved

29:44

the stock price in my business So

29:46

if I don't make it the company

29:48

doesn't make it when we don't which

29:50

we didn't that's not good and none

29:53

of us want to be sitting in

29:55

that space. to be as successful as

29:57

we could this quarter? Do I think

29:59

I did everything I could? No, I

30:01

don't. I think all of us have

30:04

to collectively say. Did we do our

30:06

best? And if you can say you

30:08

did your best? Awesome. You can go

30:10

to sleep at night saying, maybe I

30:12

didn't accomplish the objective, but I did

30:15

everything I could. So just because you

30:17

tried your best doesn't mean that you've

30:19

met the standard. That's right. Okay. And

30:21

then how do you hold people to

30:23

the standard? Yep. And keep them accountable.

30:26

I think if you have to be

30:28

super clear of what the standard is,

30:30

first of all. So I think. And

30:32

how do you do you do that?

30:34

The objective number you're trying to try

30:37

to try to hit? And how you

30:39

hit it, how you hit it. So

30:41

it's about, you know, it's the circles

30:43

of sort of just excelling in performance,

30:45

but it's also the cultural aspect of

30:48

how you did it. And they're both

30:50

very high standards. So behave in a

30:52

way that we expect, there's like zero

30:54

tolerance on that one. So if you

30:57

don't, there's an outcome that you're not

30:59

going to like. And that's just the

31:01

reality. And I'm happy to tell everyone

31:03

about that and share it a hundred

31:05

times over, right. And then there's the

31:08

performance aspect. And so that's more about,

31:10

are you achieving the objective from a

31:12

performance aspect? It's super easy when you're

31:14

talking to people who are chasing a

31:16

number, right? So if you're doing it

31:19

from a sales perspective, that's easy from

31:21

the standpoint of what the accountability target

31:23

is. Then the question becomes, are you,

31:25

if you aren't performing, are you at

31:27

least progressing in a way that we

31:30

believe you're going to accomplish that objective

31:32

in a period of time? what they're

31:34

expected to do and then at some

31:36

point go like well they're not good

31:38

enough. I'm like well that's your fault

31:41

you didn't tell them what to expect

31:43

you didn't tell them where they needed

31:45

to be you didn't tell them what

31:47

you expected of them so do that

31:49

first and then coach them through it

31:52

so I think it's a constant communication

31:54

this is I think an area everybody

31:56

can get better at in terms of

31:58

just here's what I saw that you

32:00

did that you did that didn't here's

32:03

where I think you're performing against the

32:05

objective and what I need you to

32:07

go against the objective and what I

32:09

need you to go do. And here's

32:11

where I think that there's areas of

32:14

opportunity. And also super honest about like,

32:16

I'm not sure this is the right

32:18

role for you. And here's why. Do

32:20

you think it's the right role for

32:22

you? And help me understand why you

32:25

think. it gets the right role for

32:27

you and then let's work together to

32:29

figure out how to make sure you're

32:31

you're excelling at the pace. We want

32:33

people to be happy. Like I also

32:36

liken it back to like you got

32:38

to be happy in what you're doing

32:40

and sometimes people aren't performing in roles

32:42

because they're in the wrong job. So

32:44

that might be part of it too.

32:47

It's all you got to figure all

32:49

the pieces out to make sure that

32:51

you're doing the right thing from an

32:53

accountable perspective. Yeah. Coach privately. Yes, I

32:56

will coach a collective publicly, not an

32:58

individual, even if it's not a, you

33:00

know, if it's a challenging point. coaching

33:02

can be done publicly when you hold

33:04

somebody in high regard. Yes. And you

33:07

ask thoughtful questions and you're trying to

33:09

help, you know, that's a that's a

33:11

different type of model. Yeah. When it's

33:13

like, look, that's not good enough. Yes.

33:15

Then that is best served privately. Yes.

33:18

I think so too. bad or exposed

33:20

or what is the goal? The goal

33:22

is to help people improve or move

33:24

honestly. I mean it's it's get better

33:26

or go find something that you'll excel

33:29

at. Do you have a an experience

33:31

where you held on or tolerated a

33:33

high performer? Oh yeah. That had just...

33:35

Was a jerk? Low character. Yeah, yeah,

33:37

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I do. And...

33:40

What are the insights? How did you

33:42

work with that? It was an interest.

33:44

Well, I have two examples. I have

33:46

one example where it was like an

33:48

immediate, I would say it was a

33:51

very fast exit because they were unbelievably

33:53

good, but they were unbelievably bad from

33:55

a cultural perspective. I have another example

33:57

that went on far too long. I

33:59

was in a debate, I would say,

34:02

with others, where I was like I

34:04

am not going to tolerate this anymore.

34:06

Some others were sort of like, no,

34:08

no, no, they're amazing. Like it's worth

34:10

it. And then I just got to.

34:13

it is the narrative. And that's usually

34:15

a fear-based approach. I've seen it in

34:17

sport over and over there. It tries

34:19

me. The high talent. It eats at

34:21

me. It eats at me. They hurt

34:24

people. They hurt people. They hurt people.

34:26

They are toxic. And the minute they

34:28

finally go, it is like a dance

34:30

in the streets. Every coach that I've

34:32

worked with, it's the same type of

34:35

thing. Yes. Why did I wait so

34:37

long? I just told somebody the other

34:39

day. Never ever in my life. Have

34:41

I let somebody go and wished I'd

34:43

waited longer ever in my life? I

34:46

said, so if you, you know, you

34:48

know, you know, you know, but there's

34:50

a little confirmation bias in there, which

34:52

I haven't met a surgeon that after

34:55

surgery, he says, or she says, I

34:57

think I left a spongy, but we

34:59

should be okay. Yeah, I'm pretty good.

35:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I missed a couple

35:03

seizures and, you know, internal bleeding, we'll

35:06

deal with that later and over and

35:08

over again. Yeah. You're just usually hanging

35:10

on too long. And then the other

35:12

thing is, you know, I was talking

35:14

to somebody else who had one of

35:17

these people, and they didn't work for

35:19

us, it was a friend, and I

35:21

just said, you want to know how

35:23

everybody else is thinking of you right

35:25

now? They're asking the question. You stand

35:28

up and talk about culture. You stand

35:30

up and talk about how important it

35:32

is, and you let this person sit

35:34

on your team. Like, what do you

35:36

think they're thinking of you? Like, your

35:39

actions or speak way louder than your

35:41

words. Nobody wants the person. I mean,

35:43

even if you have a dip for

35:45

a period of time because they were

35:47

so amazing, it doesn't last long. When

35:50

you think about purpose, how do you

35:52

help crosswalk that into your team? Is

35:54

it either to help uncover their purpose

35:56

or to help them live in alignment

35:58

with the purpose of the organization? How

36:01

do you go about purpose for the

36:03

team? We get super clear on the

36:05

purpose of the organization, so that for

36:07

us is empowering every organization. and every

36:09

person on the planet to achieve more.

36:12

So that's a super clear purpose. and

36:14

it is, everybody knows it, we align

36:16

around it, we're super clear about that.

36:18

I think a personal purpose can be

36:20

very, very different person by person. So

36:23

I think it's important that when we

36:25

create, back to kind of creating space,

36:27

they create the space to understand their

36:29

own. Because it's not gonna be the

36:31

same as the person sitting next to

36:34

them. They're there for whatever reason they're

36:36

there. And I think getting sort of

36:38

dialed into what that is, is quite

36:40

freeing. and really creates clarity. So I

36:42

think that for us is just about

36:45

having honestly some of the things we've

36:47

done with you, which is getting people

36:49

clear on what that is. And then

36:51

when we understand everybody else's, even if

36:54

you just think about it from a

36:56

leadership team perspective, super powerful. So it

36:58

helps you understand why somebody comes at

37:00

something the way that they do. And

37:02

then we ask those folks to do

37:05

it with their leadership teams and so

37:07

on and so on and so on.

37:09

So you kind of create this opportunity

37:11

down the line for everybody to think

37:13

about what. is important or what their

37:16

purposes. People on your team have told

37:18

me how great it is to be

37:20

on your team. That's nice. Yeah, they

37:22

have told me like they feel like

37:24

they won the jackpot, like, you know.

37:27

So how do you create that sense

37:29

of team mating? I think part of

37:31

it is you pick the right people.

37:33

So I think there's a lot that

37:35

goes into, I'm super selective. A lot

37:38

goes into the why I pick the

37:40

people that I pick, even as I

37:42

think about the dynamic of the team.

37:44

So you might have two people that

37:46

are equally skilled, but there's something about

37:49

one candidate versus the other that fits

37:51

the dynamic of the team better. And

37:53

I think the team dynamic is crazy

37:55

powerful because it just will create energy

37:57

and momentum. And so I think about

38:00

that a lot. I try at least

38:02

that. Everybody is as important as the

38:04

next person. I don't care what your

38:06

job is. Like, before we go into

38:08

that piece here, like, do you hire

38:11

slow? Or do you know exactly what

38:13

you're looking for? I would hire, I

38:15

would say, at an average pace, I

38:17

wouldn't say I hire fast, but I

38:19

don't hire slow. I try to hire

38:22

at a reasonable pace, but I usually

38:24

do know what I'm looking for. And

38:26

it can be different, depending on the

38:28

role or the makeup of the team.

38:30

If there was a couple buckets that

38:33

you want to make sure you fill,

38:35

or that person fills, what are those?

38:37

Let's assume they're capable, like, like, obviously.

38:39

I like people who have runway, meaning

38:42

they have the potential to do something

38:44

else or more. I generally look for

38:46

people who represent our culture or what

38:48

we want or what I want out

38:50

of how people behave, how they treat

38:53

others, how they treat admins, is the

38:55

biggest sign of like how... Do you

38:57

do your homework there? Oh yeah. You

38:59

have somebody or yourself call their former

39:01

admin? Everybody. You do all the due

39:04

diligence on how they behave. when people

39:06

aren't watching. The scouts, like whether it's

39:08

the Seahawks or another team, during the

39:10

selection process, they go back and make

39:12

sure that they understand the strength coach's

39:15

point of view. Exactly. Yeah. And the

39:17

really good ones, when we have good

39:19

relationships at the universities before they were

39:21

drafted to come in the NFL, have

39:23

relationships with the janitorial services. Like, hey,

39:26

what did you notice? Yes. And you

39:28

should see when they come alive. Like,

39:30

oh, you asking me? Yeah, we're also

39:32

here. And they're like, oh, it's like,

39:34

yeah, like, oh, let me tell you.

39:37

I always had to pick up his

39:39

bottles. You know, it's like, oh really?

39:41

It says so much. Yeah. I like

39:43

to have meals with them because I

39:45

like to see how they treat the

39:48

weight staff. I think that's hugely telling.

39:50

It's amazing how people will slot right

39:52

into sort of who they are really

39:54

in those types of environments, which I

39:56

think is super interesting. are learners who

39:59

do have some sort of growth mindset

40:01

that recognize they're not always right and

40:03

that are interested in learning from each

40:05

other. Like I'm a big believer, like

40:07

you have to learn from those on.

40:10

your team and you have to have

40:12

each other's back. Are you going to

40:14

have somebody's back or are you going

40:16

to care about yourself first? I think

40:18

people have to understand that we go

40:21

hard. I mean you know this about

40:23

us. It's intense. It is. And I

40:25

think people have to separate what they're

40:27

doing at work with however they're going

40:29

to recover and that looks different for

40:32

different people. What does that mean? To

40:34

me it means are you sitting in

40:36

a corner reading a book? Perhaps that's

40:38

how you recover. Are you exercising? Are

40:41

you eating right? Are you spending time

40:43

laughing with family and friends? Are you

40:45

going for a walk? What is it

40:47

for you that lets you separate your

40:49

mind from this intense pace that we

40:52

run? Because it'll burn people out if

40:54

you don't have that moment or moments

40:56

and you don't work them into your

40:58

routine, it's brutal. And you can see

41:00

it on people. Like when they're not

41:03

putting the energy in on their own

41:05

cells. It's not sustainable. Is it a

41:07

daily practice for you or is it

41:09

has to be a weekly practice daily?

41:11

It's a daily practice. Yeah, like it's

41:14

and you have to find the time

41:16

to do it. I think that's the

41:18

piece. You got to cut. You got

41:20

to create the space whether it's I'm

41:22

just going to go for a walk

41:25

this morning. I went for a walk.

41:27

Yeah, just whatever it is like you

41:29

have to you have to create the

41:31

space. Is it structured? And it's very

41:33

easy. Because it's like you get up,

41:36

you work out, you have your smoothie,

41:38

you know, like it's a very bing

41:40

bing bing. When you're on the road,

41:42

your schedules can be crazy. So you

41:44

have to figure out where can you

41:47

fit it in? Is it literally 15

41:49

minutes of doing a core workout or

41:51

something? On the floor in the hotel

41:53

room, if you have to. Physical movement

41:55

is important for me. I need physical

41:58

movement. It like clears my brain. It's

42:00

just is something I've always done. How

42:02

important is managing that second narrative, the

42:04

critical part, the critical self? Really, super

42:06

important. Yeah, like how are you? doing

42:09

there? I go through phases I think

42:11

generally on how I'm doing. Sounds pretty

42:13

honest there. I mean sometimes you're like

42:15

I am on it you know what

42:17

I mean like you feel good you're

42:20

like you're in your zone you're like

42:22

it's it's firing on all cylinders. You're

42:24

coaching yourself well. Yes other times I

42:26

feel like man get get it together

42:28

like you're not like you're falling off

42:31

on sort of your personal whether it's

42:33

fitness whatever it is like if you

42:35

feel like you haven't accomplish what you

42:37

want. you're on to something really important

42:40

because take the premise I'm trying to

42:42

be my best right you are to

42:44

okay and at the end of the

42:46

day did I make what percentage of

42:48

my choices beautifully lined up with that

42:51

aspiration okay well you know I you're

42:53

doing pretty good so far today yeah

42:55

no no I'm thinking about like okay

42:57

yesterday it was good so I got

42:59

on the I wanted to eat I

43:02

ate a salad before I got on

43:04

the plane okay I was like Okay,

43:06

so that's good. It was salad, clean

43:08

protein, happy days. And then I wasn't

43:10

gonna eat on the plane because it's

43:13

usually really salty, whatever. And then, and

43:15

I said no, and then I smelled

43:17

it. And I said, yeah, I'll take

43:19

one of those. And so then I

43:21

got off the plane. And I was

43:24

sitting for a while, and I was

43:26

like, why did I do that? Like,

43:28

it was, I wasn't like hard on

43:30

myself critical, but I know, curious, yeah.

43:32

the choice for my best self. That

43:35

was the choice for my immediate pleasure.

43:37

Okay. So does that ring a bell?

43:39

This is like exhausting in some respects

43:41

for you know, like it's an all

43:43

day long. I mean, it's very funny

43:46

you say this because yesterday we started

43:48

really early. Yeah. We never had time

43:50

to eat lunch. We didn't have time

43:52

to eat dinner. So it was like

43:54

I'm eating chocolate cover pretzels in the

43:57

car. Like terrible choice. Terrible. Where did

43:59

they came from the store. that someone

44:01

might perhaps have bought for me. But

44:03

I know and this is where my

44:05

wife and I we But then I

44:08

was like, who cares? I mean, at

44:10

the end of the day, like. Okay,

44:12

but that's, this is what I want

44:14

to square. Yes. Try to be your

44:16

very best. And then who cares when

44:19

it's like inconvenient? Well, I, because if

44:21

you're, no one can do it 100%

44:23

of the time. I don't know. If

44:25

you do, are you happy? I don't

44:28

know. Okay. Well, I'm okay saying to

44:30

myself. I don't need to do it

44:32

100% of the time. with Olympic athletes,

44:34

we're trying to help them be in

44:36

striking range between 87 and 92. Yeah,

44:39

and they're elite athletes. Yeah, I'm pretty

44:41

good at 80. 100 is... I won't

44:43

eat the whole box, but I'll do

44:45

it 80% of the box. Yeah, okay,

44:47

good. I just have a big handful.

44:50

That's right. Yeah. This is the the

44:52

real conversation about how to live a

44:54

good life. Yes. It starts with how

44:56

we speak to ourselves. Yes. And there's

44:58

this constant compromise between the aspiration and

45:01

the reality. Yes. And then how I

45:03

navigate that gap is really makes me

45:05

who I am in so many ways.

45:07

I don't have it dialed in. I'm

45:09

more aware of how I work with

45:12

myself than I was five years ago,

45:14

15 years ago. I'm way better at

45:16

it. And there's still like aspiration. Yeah,

45:18

much more room to go every day.

45:20

How connected are you to friends? Pretty

45:23

connected, but I don't have a lot

45:25

of acquaintances. Yeah. I have a few

45:27

very good friends. Would you say that

45:29

that feels good to you? Yes. Yeah,

45:31

it does. And you feel close to

45:34

them? I go sort of all in.

45:36

Do you know what I mean? So

45:38

I feel like pretty loyal to very

45:40

few people. Yeah. And it's time consuming.

45:42

If you're a super good friend, it

45:45

takes time. There's a sacrifice there. There

45:47

is. And they sacrifice for you too.

45:49

And I think it can't be that

45:51

many. Friendship of convenience is very different

45:53

than the friendship of intimacy. Yes. the

45:56

hard parts. And it's, you know, my

45:58

wife said to me, right when we

46:00

had our son, like, look, I want

46:02

to get on the same page with

46:04

you. Parenting is inconvenient. Like, we're gonna,

46:07

he's gonna throw some tantrums, he's gonna,

46:09

there's gonna, and we're gonna have to

46:11

make some calls that will be hard.

46:13

Like, and I was like, oh, I

46:15

like this, I like the challenge. But

46:18

that's where like the commitment to another

46:20

person is expressed in those moments when

46:22

it's hard. Yes. Yeah, so you're a

46:24

good friend it sounds like. I hope

46:27

so. You have to ask them but

46:29

I think though. Yeah. It'd be fun.

46:31

Yeah. It'd be fun. Yeah. It'd be

46:33

fun to call it. Yeah. I give

46:35

you some numbers. You can call it.

46:38

I would imagine. I have the answer.

46:40

Okay. All right let's let's turn the

46:42

page here a little bit to AI

46:44

and human potential. Yeah. And I'll just

46:46

speak for my experience and then I'll

46:49

kind of give you examples of some

46:51

of the experiences I've had with customers

46:53

or others. I find it's sort of

46:55

exhilarating because I think when you understand

46:57

what it can help you do, you

47:00

feel more productive, you feel like you're

47:02

doing something neat and new and you're

47:04

learning. And I think it's creating more

47:06

potential because it's helping you do things

47:08

that perhaps you need help on or

47:11

that... just frankly give you more hours

47:13

in the day. I'm a big believer

47:15

of anything that can give me a

47:17

few more hours. I'm taking it. So

47:19

yeah, the research is 30% right? About

47:22

30% more time is allocated if you

47:24

start using the technology. 30% for me.

47:26

It's about putting things in the flow

47:28

of the day. That's right. Whether it's

47:30

my refrigerator is I'm better when my

47:33

refrigerator looks pretty good. Yeah. I'm better

47:35

when my shoes are in front of

47:37

my garage door. my fitness shoots, right?

47:39

Like I'm better when I prime some

47:41

things for the recovery bit. Yeah. I'm

47:44

better when I've scheduled in my calendar

47:46

time for meditation. So it's this upstream.

47:48

I'm better when I know how to

47:50

use the technology and I'm not quite

47:52

there yet. Yeah. And we're, look, I'm

47:55

pushing really hard on understanding its capabilities.

47:57

The biggest piece of advice that I

47:59

have when it comes to... anything related

48:01

to AI, this is change management. This

48:03

is behavioral change. That is not about

48:06

the technology. It is the technology enables

48:08

that. But you've got to figure out

48:10

how to allow yourself to work differently.

48:12

And those who allow themselves to work

48:14

differently are the ones who are going

48:17

to have the 30% productivity gains because

48:19

they're willing to try something. I think

48:21

it's that kind of stuff. Like not

48:23

giving up, like the first prompt doesn't

48:26

work, prompt it again. Prompt it again,

48:28

like you'll start to learn how to

48:30

write better prompts, you'll start to get

48:32

better at it, it will learn as

48:34

you're kind of developing with. So I

48:37

think there's those types of things that,

48:39

it's to sort of stick with it.

48:41

And is Microsoft going to be a

48:43

tool or a platform? We're a platform.

48:45

Yeah, period. So it's resting on Azure

48:48

teams the whole, right? And then, and

48:50

so, but CoPilot is a tool. Yep.

48:52

So is it more you are a

48:54

platform, but you've got this powerful tool?

48:56

Yes. And how how ought the innovators

48:59

be thinking about using Microsoft's platform and

49:01

tool for what they're trying to solve

49:03

in their life? So I think it's

49:05

a lot of things. So first of

49:07

all, if you think about Azure, which

49:10

is our cloud platform, Azure open AI,

49:12

data services, is the AI sitting on

49:14

top of the platform. So everything we

49:16

build is using our capability in AI

49:18

data services. and that's what Copilot is

49:21

or the other things that we build

49:23

with AI. I actually think about Copilot

49:25

is sort of, it's what we built

49:27

to give you to get going. And

49:29

then you might continue to build different

49:32

versions of AI yourself. And that's the

49:34

power of the tool or the platform.

49:36

So because it all resides together, it

49:38

can interact in a way that can

49:40

really enhance the way people work every

49:43

single day. So we love people to

49:45

think about it in the context of

49:47

Copilot is just one example. of the

49:49

way to utilize AI, and that's something

49:51

that can apply to every person in

49:54

the organization. But you also want to

49:56

think about how do you impact business

49:58

process? How do you actually find? ways

50:00

to mobilize or impact people differently because

50:02

you can actually insert AI into a

50:05

business process so the process itself is

50:07

better. And so that's where we think

50:09

people look at it in terms of

50:11

functions inside the organization. So an HR

50:14

function, a customer service function, you can

50:16

actually think about how you build capability.

50:18

Whether we build it for you using

50:20

services teams or you build it yourself

50:22

or you use a third party. We

50:25

don't care. Like the idea is just

50:27

now you have this amazing robust platform.

50:29

You can just go. So now let

50:31

me just ping pong back to this

50:33

other idea about how you sell. Now

50:36

this is technical skills. Yep. So you're

50:38

selling this new thing and you know

50:40

there's a nexus happening globally about how

50:42

we're going to do this next generation

50:44

of tech. And it's requiring behavioral change.

50:47

Big time. And there's a radical opportunity

50:49

for Microsoft here. Meaning a radical opportunity

50:51

for you. And so what is the

50:53

technical, what are your technical chops on

50:55

how you sell? Yeah. Are you selling

50:58

a promise? Are you selling a solution?

51:00

Oh, such a good question. Yeah. I

51:02

think we're selling value. We have to

51:04

learn how all of this capability results

51:06

in value for the customer. The end

51:09

game is what is better for the

51:11

customer because they're using. And that could

51:13

come in many forms. So example. Yes.

51:15

You have a call center. You have

51:17

45,000 agents. You have agents that are

51:20

paging through manuals. So when a customer

51:22

calls, they're like, and they're trying to

51:24

find the answer to whatever the problem

51:26

might be. Can we build an agent

51:28

that does that for you? So in

51:31

seconds, you can respond to a customer

51:33

instead of having to have the customer

51:35

on hold, escalate the customer to not

51:37

getting a first call resolution. That type

51:39

of stuff is insane value because you

51:42

see better customer sat, you see better

51:44

employees sat. The employees are happier because

51:46

they can solve the problem better. You

51:48

can handle nine cases a day instead

51:50

of three. All those types of... productivity

51:53

gains, that's the story that we have

51:55

to tell. So people understand why the

51:57

technology is valuable to them. Is that

51:59

valuable for the line worker or is

52:01

that valuable for the? It's actually in

52:04

that case, all of them. Yeah. Because

52:06

the line worker in that case, we

52:08

actually, because this, by the way, we're

52:10

customer zero in this example. And so

52:13

we've run our own studies on what's

52:15

happening. Our own internal employee set has

52:17

gone up because the stress of solving

52:19

a customer problem. When you're taking those

52:21

calls, it's pretty high. If you can

52:24

get to first call resolution, if you

52:26

can find the answer to the problem

52:28

faster because you have agents that are

52:30

surfacing it for you, if you can

52:32

write a better email because they're actually

52:35

prompting emails for you, the agents, that's

52:37

amazing. So everyone wins, the customer service

52:39

person wins, the customer wins, and the

52:41

company wins. Yeah, in that example. Yeah.

52:43

So you're selling value. Yeah. Yeah. And

52:46

then how much do you use storytelling,

52:48

what you just used right now? Storytelling,

52:50

now we're not, like, transparently, this is

52:52

something we have to, people have to

52:54

learn how to tell stories. And that's

52:57

not easy. So I think we go

52:59

through that process of training back to

53:01

sort of kind of, in our world

53:03

and technology, one of the hardest things

53:05

is that technology moves so fast that

53:08

you're in this constant cycle of trying

53:10

to keep people trained and skilled. So

53:12

not only you're trying to skill them

53:14

on what the story or the value

53:16

is to the customer. And that might

53:19

be different, you know, we have different

53:21

roles that do different things in our

53:23

organization, but that's, and it's happening so

53:25

quickly that you're trying to sort of

53:27

upskill everyone as it's happening, which is

53:30

very unique right now, that it has

53:32

not been like this at this pace

53:34

since I've been in technology. It's incredible.

53:36

Yeah, you know what I love about

53:38

your style of selling, not that I've

53:41

been on the other end, you've never

53:43

sold me anything, but like you don't

53:45

sell the doom and gloom and gloom

53:47

and gloom, and we have, and we

53:49

have, and we have, and we have,

53:52

and we have, and the energy and

53:54

excitement we have over what we're doing.

53:56

Yeah, you're, there is a, there is

53:58

a buzz. Do you know what I

54:00

mean? Like I think there's part of

54:03

it. sort of just like, man, this

54:05

is cool stuff that we get to

54:07

do. And so I think people sort

54:09

of start above the line. And I

54:12

think it's just our culture. Like we're

54:14

not, we're not doom and gloomer people,

54:16

you know, we're not naysayer, we're not

54:18

trying to, we're not a fear-based, we're

54:20

not trying to drive people to do

54:23

something out of fear. We're trying to

54:25

drive people to do something out of

54:27

fear. We're trying to. I don't know,

54:29

about 10 years now. Just yesterday, I

54:31

spoke to the new class coming in

54:34

in your sales unit. And they're different.

54:36

This class is different. Like, there was

54:38

an energy, there was a noticeable, I

54:40

don't know what you guys did on

54:42

selection, but there is a, I'm really

54:45

excited to see what this class does.

54:47

Yeah, it was fundamentally different in the

54:49

way that they felt. good in the

54:51

room and you know it's a large

54:53

room yeah yeah it's a bigger yeah

54:56

so yeah so I'm really excited to

54:58

see what you know what this like

55:00

next little face yeah it's really cool

55:02

and they I love I love kind

55:04

of the outside and eyes are so

55:07

great yeah I just love I love

55:09

sort of their view on sometimes we

55:11

do things and they're like that's doesn't

55:13

make any sense and they're sometimes very

55:15

right you know in the worst answer

55:18

well that's how we do it yeah

55:20

that is yeah Thank you so much

55:22

for a couple things. One, this conversation,

55:24

lovely. I would, yeah, for sure. And

55:26

the way that you make me feel

55:29

at Microsoft. So thank you for that

55:31

as well. Each time that I get

55:33

to work with your teams and you

55:35

and like, there's just a rich appreciation.

55:37

And so we're so grateful. Yeah, you

55:40

make me and us feel a certain

55:42

way to work with you. And so,

55:44

thank you for that. Well, that's, I

55:46

mean, you're all amazing. Like, we've, we've,

55:48

we've, we have benefited so much. I

55:51

mean, I was just thinking the other

55:53

day about the work you're doing with

55:55

us with my leadership team during COVID.

55:57

And it was, it was intense. I

55:59

mean, if you remember those times, it

56:02

was early, it was intense. And it

56:04

just, I don't know, you bring such

56:06

a calm sense of. potential. That is

56:08

awesome. I think that's what it is.

56:11

It's just this calm sense of potential

56:13

and everybody always walks away feeling good

56:15

about themselves, good about the team, good

56:17

about the focus, good about the investment.

56:19

That's really cool. I mean we care

56:22

about this stuff and so I think

56:24

that's why you're there and that's people

56:26

see that and that's that they don't

56:28

all come from places where that was

56:30

the case. Would you be open if

56:33

I shared with you like how I

56:35

see you? I would love it. Are

56:37

you sure? Yes, I'm scared, but yes.

56:39

You're an unconventional risk taker. There's five

56:41

different types of risk. And so you

56:44

take emotional and social risk. And it

56:46

is one of your superpowers that you

56:48

do that. You take care of people

56:50

when you do it. You mention that

56:52

today, but I've seen it in action.

56:55

So you're really open to ideas. You're

56:57

very open to experiences, but there's a

56:59

social line that you... you stay within

57:01

like there's a moray like you're not

57:03

on the fringe of like I don't

57:06

know pushing taboos but you're really curious

57:08

and open you have just the right

57:10

amount of neurotic energy to allow me

57:12

to feel like you are really in

57:14

it yeah and it's not about you

57:17

yeah so there's a nervousness and an

57:19

excitement and that that comes forward that

57:21

is just the right amount to know

57:23

that I'm with someone that's real. Yeah.

57:25

Yeah. You're agreeable, but then you take

57:28

it away when you don't agree. So

57:30

you say, yes, I see that part

57:32

of it, and then you'll take it

57:34

away. So you're not like, I think

57:36

you're cult-proof. So you're not going to

57:39

get sucked into a narrative and like,

57:41

this is, you know, so just the

57:43

right amount of agreeableness that you have,

57:45

you're an independent thinker. There's a, you're

57:47

naturally extroverted, but you have internal feelings

57:50

that you work to bring forward. So

57:52

private with your feelings, but you're bringing

57:54

them probably more forward than you ever

57:56

have in your life. I think that

57:59

you process information really quickly and are

58:01

able to simplify it and express it

58:03

to others. So you like a lot

58:05

of information coming in and then you

58:07

simplify it before it comes out, which

58:10

is the system's thinking piece. You probably

58:12

worry more than what other people would

58:14

know. Oh, totally. You're so good at

58:16

this. Yeah, actually, I don't know how

58:18

they did it, but they gave me

58:21

a little certificate that says I should

58:23

do this more often. Yeah. And so

58:25

I think that's kind of probably related

58:27

to the anxiousness, but you worry about

58:29

people. I do. I do. Yeah. And

58:32

so yeah, that's how I see it.

58:34

Like I would love to work in

58:36

your organization with you because I think

58:38

you really care. I do. That's awesome.

58:40

Thank you. You're welcome. Wow. What a

58:43

great day. Okay, mastery is. Well, you

58:45

know, can I just say, I like

58:47

that you say finding mastery. You do

58:49

like that. Because it's a journey. It's

58:51

never, you're not, I don't think anyone's

58:54

like, I have found it. No, mastery

58:56

is here. I just think it's. Pastry

58:58

is in the seat. Right, okay. I

59:00

think mastery is, is getting to a

59:02

place or traveling to a place that

59:05

is honing all of the things that

59:07

matter to you in your life. It's

59:09

not just about your work skill or

59:11

your, if you're an athlete, how fast

59:13

you are, or whatever it's. I think

59:16

it's getting to a place where you

59:18

feel like you're honing all the things

59:20

that really matter and that you're sitting

59:22

in sort of a calm, confident place

59:24

that you're doing all those things to

59:27

get there. That's what it feels like.

59:29

That's sort of how I think of

59:31

mastery. Nobody has ever described it that

59:33

way. Is really? Well done. Great way

59:35

to end the conversation. Yeah. Deb, thank

59:38

you for coming down to a treat.

59:40

Great to see you. Next week on

59:42

finding mastery, I sit down with the

59:44

best-selling author Robert Green. We explore the

59:46

path of true mastery of craft and

59:49

self. We dive into the psychology of

59:51

power, the importance of finding your life's

59:53

task, and the... found lessons

59:55

that learned from overcoming

59:58

his biggest challenge

1:00:00

yet. Tune in next

1:00:02

week and make

1:00:04

sure you catch this

1:00:06

you and thought and

1:00:09

episode. episode.