0:00

I always share a belief that I

0:02

have with the leaders in the class,

0:04

and I will tell them, you are

0:06

the person, your direct reports, go home

0:08

and talk to their partner, their kids,

0:11

their friends about, and you control

0:13

what they say about you. Is

0:15

it good or is it bad?

0:17

And in your hands, with these

0:19

people, you can be a

0:21

confidence builder or a confidence

0:23

destroyer. That's a pretty powerful

0:26

position to be in. Welcome

0:28

back. Welcome back. Or welcome to

0:30

the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your

0:32

host, Dr. Michael Jervais, by trade

0:34

and training a high-performance psychologist. This

0:36

is the second installment in a

0:39

series of conversations we've been having

0:41

with global leaders in human resources.

0:43

They are at the forefront of

0:45

helping define modern leadership and what

0:47

it takes to attract and retain

0:50

and build the next generation of

0:52

leaders. From the shift to and

0:54

from hybrid work to the integration

0:56

of emerging technologies like AI,

0:58

These conversations highlight the leadership

1:01

capabilities that will help teams

1:03

thrive in the modern workplace.

1:06

Today's guest is Rhonda Morris,

1:08

the former chief human resources

1:11

officer at Chevron. Rhonda's a

1:13

powerhouse. She is sharp and

1:16

competitive and deeply committed to

1:18

helping others perform at their

1:20

best. I think leaders now

1:22

have to have a deeper

1:25

understanding of people than they've

1:27

ever had before. knows that

1:29

she leads authentically. That's how

1:31

she's broken barriers. I have

1:34

been on many leadership

1:36

teams where I was a

1:38

double only, the only woman,

1:40

the only person of color.

1:42

And it's really hard to

1:45

explain what that feels like

1:47

unless you're in that

1:49

situation. So with that, let's

1:52

jump into this week's

1:54

conversation with Rhonda Morris.

1:58

Okay. What

2:00

is important for me to know,

2:03

to understand you? I think

2:05

it's important for you to

2:07

know the role sports plays in

2:09

my life. And right now I

2:11

am a deeply broken-hearted

2:14

sports fan. So you've grown

2:16

up with sports, like you,

2:18

is this something that your

2:20

whole life you've been in

2:22

the sports? Yes, I have. And

2:24

in some ways I think, I think

2:26

my... The relationship I have with

2:29

sports has actually helped me be

2:31

successful in my professional career. Because

2:33

when I was growing up, and

2:35

I grew up in Oakland, California, in

2:37

a blue-collar neighborhood, and I grew up

2:39

at a time when children didn't have

2:41

play dates, you went outside and you

2:43

played with whoever was outside until your

2:46

mother started screaming for you to come

2:48

in the house and ate dinner. And all the

2:50

kids in my neighborhood were boys, all of them.

2:52

So there were no girls my age. I

2:54

have an older sister, the older kids who

2:56

were girls were my sister's age, and this

2:58

was a time where the older kids

3:01

didn't really play with the younger kids,

3:03

so I was forced to play with boys.

3:05

And in my job now, I'm still playing

3:07

largely with boys. Yeah. What do you

3:09

think is an advantage that that would

3:11

have given you? And I think

3:13

this is a two-part question. The

3:15

advantage of sport in general, your

3:17

relationship with it, and that's either

3:20

playing or supporting or supporting.

3:22

And then the second part of

3:24

the question is, what do you

3:26

think the relationship with competing

3:28

with boys at a young age, how that

3:30

might have helped or not helped? Oh,

3:32

it helped tremendously. So number one,

3:35

I learned, so I'm very competitive,

3:37

I like winning, and I learned

3:39

when I was very young that in order,

3:41

I want to be picked first. Remember

3:43

when kids split up and they

3:45

pick who's going to be on the

3:48

team? I was never picked last because

3:50

I'm so competitive. And I learned that

3:52

in order to be picked first, I

3:54

had to be better than all of them.

3:56

And I was. And when they realized I

3:58

was going to help... them when, they

4:01

didn't care that I was a

4:03

girl, they cared that I would

4:05

help them win. Okay, where did

4:07

that come from? Mom, dad, cousins,

4:09

uncles, is there is there a

4:11

family zeist or is there a

4:14

family ethos that had supported them?

4:16

Not really. My parents and this

4:18

is I think maybe a little

4:20

bit unusual. My parents are strong

4:22

believers in education. My father passed

4:25

away. I come from a family

4:27

of educators. My grandmother was a

4:29

principal at a principal at a

4:31

school in Louisiana, she would tell

4:33

all of her grandkids are going

4:35

to college. So I grew up

4:38

never thinking going to college was

4:40

an option because it was drilled

4:42

into us, you're going to college.

4:44

But the drive to be the

4:46

smartest person in my class, I

4:48

don't really know where that came

4:51

from because I made a decision

4:53

when I was 10. I was

4:55

running track, I played basketball, and

4:57

I gave up both of them

4:59

because... The time I was spending

5:02

at practice was interfering with the

5:04

time I had to study. And

5:06

so I decided I had to

5:08

make a trade-off. It would be

5:10

trade- And intellectual and athletic prowess.

5:12

Yes. And at age 10, you

5:15

knew that the path you chose

5:17

was more important than participating in

5:19

sport. Well, at the time, that's

5:21

what I thought. Yes. What does

5:23

that mean? That means I have

5:26

often wondered. What would have happened

5:28

if I'd made the reverse decision?

5:30

I do the same thing. Do

5:32

you really? Yeah. Sometimes I can

5:34

be really zen about it and

5:36

be like, well, those are the

5:39

choices. I made the choice, the

5:41

best choices. And other times, when

5:43

I get down underneath the surface

5:45

of that, there's like a pit

5:47

in my stomach. And that pit

5:50

in my stomach is, if I

5:52

only would have stayed a little

5:54

bit longer, if I just would

5:56

have gotten into that, into that

5:58

frame, like, what would my future

6:00

would my future have been my

6:03

future have been? And then I

6:05

quickly pop up to the intellectual

6:07

part, which is like but my...

6:09

life now is really good. And

6:11

I like, I like the choices

6:13

that I've made, but what if?

6:16

I think the same thing. And

6:18

I pull myself up out of

6:20

that also because I want to

6:22

live a life with no regrets.

6:24

My father worked two jobs my

6:27

entire childhood up until I was

6:29

in high school. And so what

6:31

that meant was my family never

6:33

ate dinner together because he wasn't

6:35

home. We all ate dinner together

6:37

on Sunday night. So one night

6:40

a week. And so I didn't

6:42

spend a lot of time with

6:44

him. And I would get up

6:46

early in the morning and make

6:48

his lunch to take to work.

6:51

And if I got up early

6:53

enough, I knew he would drop

6:55

me off at school. And this

6:57

is perhaps a five-minute car ride.

6:59

My God, how beautiful. And all

7:01

through? I was in elementary school.

7:04

Oh, that was little. I loved

7:06

my father. I pretty much worshipped

7:08

my father. So any time I

7:10

could get with him. which connects

7:12

back to sports because I would

7:15

go to football games. I don't

7:17

have brothers, so I was essentially

7:19

his son. My sister, if I

7:21

asked my sister who won the

7:23

Super Bowl, she can tell you,

7:25

if I asked my sister who

7:28

was in the Super Bowl, she

7:30

couldn't tell you. So we are,

7:32

I don't even remember if I've

7:34

ever been to a sporting event

7:36

with my older sister. But your

7:38

relationship with your dad was so

7:41

central. It's really. touching that at

7:43

that age you were of service

7:45

to be connected. Nice trying. Thank

7:47

you for sharing that because this

7:49

is, this is, it makes sense

7:52

to me why you are the

7:54

best in the world. So when

7:56

you think about helping people, so

7:58

let's have fun with this idea.

8:00

Okay. Your chief human resource officer,

8:02

how do you define being human

8:05

resource officer? If I think about

8:07

kind of what is my role

8:09

in my purpose in the company.

8:11

I think there are a lot

8:13

of different components of it. One

8:16

is to either build on or

8:18

create a culture where people can

8:20

perform at their very best. So

8:22

what does that mean? I sometimes

8:24

think about my job is to

8:26

make sure we take away things

8:29

that distract people from being their

8:31

best and that covers a pretty

8:33

wide territory. So I would start

8:35

with number one. Subtraction first. So

8:37

what are the toxicities? What are

8:40

the elements and the materials, both

8:42

relationship and structural, that are getting

8:44

in the way of people being

8:46

their very best? It's interesting that

8:48

you're framing your job about helping

8:50

people be their very best when

8:53

I need to understand this, when

8:55

your mission is to be the

8:57

best. So you're trying to take

8:59

advantage of people? Definitely not. No.

9:01

No. So how we understand why

9:03

you want people to be their

9:06

very best? And is that the

9:08

same thing you're trying to do?

9:10

I think it is the same

9:12

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9:14

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9:17

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that thought the fundamental commitment to

12:08

help people be their very best

12:10

yes and in doing that you

12:13

have to be on point correct

12:15

because because I would have to

12:17

roll model actually doing that. And

12:19

if you think about one element

12:21

of that would be leadership. And

12:24

there's a lot of research that

12:26

people leave. Boss is not companies.

12:28

I think it's true. And I'm

12:30

a boomeranger in Chevron and I

12:32

left the company and I'm kind

12:34

of a proof point of that

12:37

research. I didn't leave my boss.

12:39

I lived his boss. And this

12:41

was many, many years ago. But

12:43

we spend so much time at

12:45

work, we have a lot of

12:48

internal leadership training in the company,

12:50

and a lot of it is

12:52

leader taught, and I always share

12:54

a belief that I have with

12:56

the leaders in the class that

12:58

I will point at them, and

13:01

I will tell them, you are

13:03

the person, your direct reports, go

13:05

home and talk to their partner,

13:07

their kids, their friends, their friends

13:09

about, and you control. what they

13:11

say about you. Is it good

13:14

or is it bad? And in

13:16

your hands with these people you

13:18

can be a confidence builder or

13:20

a confidence destroyer. That's a pretty

13:22

powerful position to be in. That

13:25

is also connected to helping people

13:27

perform at their very best and

13:29

it's very similar to coaches with

13:31

sports. I love the framing. We

13:33

think about it above the line

13:35

and below the line. Are you

13:38

in a... above the line coach

13:40

or below the line coach? I

13:42

don't know what that means. So

13:44

above the line coach is somehow

13:46

they help you believe in a

13:49

compelling future that you have a

13:51

role in a play. that you

13:53

belong and the way that you

13:55

work matters and the straining and

13:57

striving and the fact that you

13:59

just breathe is important but the

14:02

way that you apply yourself to

14:04

our shared mission is awesome and

14:06

I see what you're trying to

14:08

do and I see so there's

14:10

a there's a feeling of that

14:13

the way that I hold and

14:15

see another person if I'm above

14:17

the line that they matter and

14:19

they're important to the shared mission

14:21

so that's confidence building below the

14:23

line are all of the ways

14:26

that somebody relates to another person

14:28

where they doubt themselves, they question

14:30

themselves, they feel small, they go

14:32

home and they go home and

14:34

they struggle or they feel like

14:37

they need to pass on that

14:39

level of critique to other people

14:41

above the line. So that essentially

14:43

is a foundational approach that you

14:45

have to leadership. Yes, and I

14:47

hope that I am an above

14:50

the line person. I always believe

14:52

that You have to check whether

14:54

your perception of yourself is how

14:56

others perceive you. Well, I could

14:58

think that. I would want to

15:01

test it. If there was three

15:03

things that you think you do

15:05

well, that keep you above the

15:07

line, and I'm going to ask

15:09

the same thing, like one thing

15:11

that maybe might get in the

15:14

way of you being below the

15:16

line, but what are the three

15:18

things that you say? Okay. These

15:20

are the three that help me

15:22

be above the line, that I

15:25

do. I believe it is important

15:27

for... the people who report directly

15:29

to me, and I would say

15:31

it's important for the whole organization

15:33

to know that I care about

15:35

them individually and collectively. Number two,

15:38

and I'm not doing this really

15:40

well right now, but, and I

15:42

worked for someone who taught me

15:44

how important this is, the success

15:46

of the team overall is more

15:49

important than the success of the

15:51

individual, and that those two things

15:53

aren't. mutually exclusive. Cool. And so

15:55

we're part of something. We're part

15:57

of something. Okay. Yes. And

16:00

then number three, I'm pretty old school,

16:03

you know this. I try to be

16:05

thoughtful. I write a lot of thank

16:07

you notes. You have some of that.

16:09

I've benefited from the thoughtfulness of your,

16:12

these are not like, hey, I'm thinking

16:14

of you, thank you so much. This

16:16

is like a real note where you've

16:19

spent time to do it. Yes. Can

16:21

I tell you something I did that

16:23

I think was, I made a decision,

16:25

this was two years ago. I had

16:28

this media after COVID and, um. We

16:30

had an extended HR leaders meeting, about

16:32

100 people, and we had planned this

16:35

meeting in 2020, got postponed, didn't happen

16:37

until I think 2022 or 2023. I

16:39

decided I was going to write a

16:42

handwritten message to every single person in

16:44

this meeting, and it wasn't. Thank you

16:46

for all your hard work during COVID.

16:48

Really appreciate you. We're going to have

16:51

a great meeting. Every single person had,

16:53

except one, had a personalized... message with

16:55

something specific. They contributed. Now, there were

16:58

seven people I didn't know, and I

17:00

had to ask their boss, what should

17:02

I recognize this person for? I was

17:04

in Houston over a weekend, and halfway

17:07

through, I thought, this is the dumbest

17:09

idea ever. Because my hand hurt, I'm

17:11

looking at this pile of envelopes, and

17:14

I thought, I cannot do this. And

17:16

I thought, but I'm halfway finished. And

17:18

so I have to finish. And I

17:21

did. And each person got a little

17:23

swag bag with some things in it,

17:25

but in it was their individualized note.

17:27

And there were three blank cards because

17:30

we built into this meeting and exercise

17:32

at the end to write to someone

17:34

else. Oh, you just, this whole time

17:37

you were saying, I'm like, that's right,

17:39

that's right. And I wanted to tell

17:41

you a story. And so I'll tell

17:43

you the story, but you just took

17:46

it to another level that I was

17:48

not able to ever have. So the

17:50

beginning of every season in a football

17:53

team. we end up with about 70-some

17:55

athletes at the end of the year

17:57

and 25 coaches. And I knew that

17:59

what I needed to do by the

18:02

end of the year, I wanted to

18:04

write a note and put it in

18:06

the locker at the last day of

18:09

the season. But I needed to have

18:11

something meaningful to say. So it gave

18:13

me this end point to really know

18:16

somebody. Because if I don't know them,

18:18

I don't know what to write. That's

18:20

a lot of relationships to build. And

18:22

it was awesome. And some people would

18:25

say. That was really cool and most

18:27

never said anything. But I didn't, you

18:29

just uplevel the game to put three

18:32

notes underneath of it and say, hey,

18:34

if inspired, share, you know, take a

18:36

moment and write a note to somebody

18:38

else on the team. That is culture

18:41

building. I hope so. You didn't ask

18:43

me a question. I didn't ask you

18:45

a question? I said except one. Oh,

18:48

I missed that. You, wait, there was

18:50

one person on the team? There's one

18:52

person I did not right to. Please

18:56

do So I mentioned I was

18:58

in Houston Everybody in the company

19:00

and this gets back to my

19:03

broken sports heart. So when Every

19:05

whenever the A's play the asterisk

19:07

I'm in Houston This has been

19:09

going on for years. So people

19:12

will schedule meetings knowing I'm in

19:14

town whether I take a group

19:16

of employees or I go by

19:18

myself by freak coincidence the team

19:20

stays in the hotel I stay

19:23

in As much as I love

19:25

baseball as a little kid growing

19:27

up. I am really I think

19:29

one of the coolest parts of

19:32

my life right now is I

19:34

actually know professional baseball players personally.

19:36

And so they know I'm at

19:38

the game, a couple of them

19:40

will ask me where I'm sitting,

19:43

and I was sitting in the

19:45

coffee area in the hotel working

19:47

on this, and I had actually

19:49

taken about 10 of these cards

19:51

with me, and Tony Kimp, who

19:54

was, he's a kind of utility

19:56

player for the hazor he was

19:58

at the time. came by and

20:00

he said, Rhonda, what are you

20:03

doing? And I write with fountain

20:05

pens, so it's even... more old

20:07

school and I explained what I

20:09

was doing and he's like wow

20:11

and he said something absolutely incredible

20:14

to me he said can I

20:16

help you I said what and

20:18

he said can I help you

20:20

and he's by himself you know

20:23

another the game wasn't for several

20:25

hours and I thought about it

20:27

and I've looked through because I

20:29

had addressed the envelopes and I

20:31

said well half these people are

20:34

from outside the United States and

20:36

don't care about baseball at all

20:38

and I'm looking through And I

20:40

said, this one cares about baseball.

20:42

He's a Cubs fan. Oh, my,

20:45

this is. And he said, I

20:47

played for the Cubs. I'll write

20:49

to him. Oh, that is so

20:51

good. So the one person, I

20:54

didn't write to you, had a

20:56

card written by Tony Kemp. Not

20:58

only is that awesome, you're great

21:00

at storytelling, but you just like

21:02

the right to last moment. Yeah.

21:05

I was like, oh, no. There

21:07

was. A toxic person that she

21:09

just couldn't, she couldn't stand to

21:11

write. It's not that. No, no,

21:14

it turned it a great story.

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protect your digital world today. What

23:20

is a human resource? You hear

23:22

these phrases that people are our

23:24

greatest asset. If you think, again,

23:27

I think there's so many correlations

23:29

between business. and sports. The sports

23:31

team is not going to win

23:33

unless you have the best players

23:35

working together as a single unit.

23:38

Same thing applies to a company

23:40

and the people in the company

23:42

and those people are human resources.

23:44

And so is the human resource

23:47

in service of productivity or are

23:49

you providing resources for the humans?

23:51

Both. Tell me more. I don't

23:53

think it has to be one

23:55

or the other. The older I

23:58

get no longer and I be

24:00

able to show for a really

24:02

long time, we have a pretty

24:04

unique culture. The great resignation didn't

24:07

happen. in our company, people tend

24:09

to spend their entire careers with

24:11

us. And if I'm not answering

24:13

your question, bring me back, please.

24:15

But I often think about what

24:18

is it about this organization? What's

24:20

the secret sauce that causes this

24:22

low turnover? And I think our

24:24

human resources have a pretty powerful

24:26

community. And in the world communities

24:29

are eroding everywhere. People don't go

24:31

to church as much as they

24:33

used to. You don't know your

24:35

neighbors as well as you used

24:38

to. And yet we have a

24:40

company where people literally grow old

24:42

together. And they're on different teams

24:44

at different times together. And they

24:46

go through life changes, whether it's

24:49

dating, getting married, having kids, watching

24:51

kids grow up, aging parents. having

24:53

someone important in your life who

24:55

has a serious illness, and that's

24:58

a pretty powerful community that builds

25:00

connective tissue and keeps us, it

25:02

keeps us bonded pretty tightly together.

25:04

When we get more technical in

25:06

the skills to be a great

25:09

CHRO, what are the technical skills

25:11

that are most important for you

25:13

to be great? A laser sharp

25:15

focus and understanding on execution. and

25:17

how to get things done, and

25:20

knowing that it's not always a

25:22

straight line, because I believe in

25:24

getting from point A to point

25:26

B, but I also believe there's

25:29

not one way to do that.

25:31

And in a company like ours

25:33

where relationships matter deeply, it's important

25:35

to bring people along with you.

25:37

So if you just say we're

25:40

going from point A to point

25:42

B, in most cases, that's not

25:44

going to work. Having people understand

25:46

the reasons we're doing this. How

25:49

is this going to make us

25:51

better, stronger, faster in the future

25:53

getting head nods? Understanding how do

25:55

you get the head nods, you

25:57

know? and not the fake head

26:00

nods, the real head nods, I'm

26:02

with you. And even understanding the

26:04

fake head nods, like I'm gonna

26:06

nod my head in the meeting

26:08

and then I'm gonna walk out

26:11

and go, she is out of

26:13

her mind, I'm never doing that.

26:15

And there's a sinus to that,

26:17

understanding the world is gray, not

26:20

black and white, and it's becoming

26:22

grayer and grayer and grayer. And

26:24

if you can't understand and deal

26:26

with that, you will never be

26:28

successful in this type of role.

26:31

You've done something that many people

26:33

don't know how to do. Fully

26:35

be yourself, be a world's best

26:37

in something that is meaningful to

26:40

you, and it serves all of

26:42

your core principles. Help you understand

26:44

if there has been or not

26:46

challenges in race and gender that

26:48

you've faced. Oh, there have been

26:51

many. So I was a bit

26:53

naive when I got in my

26:55

head, and I didn't join Chevron

26:57

with the intention of getting this

27:00

job, but when I was... as

27:02

I was progressing through my career,

27:04

and it became a possibility, I

27:06

thought, wow, I have an opportunity.

27:08

I am the first black female

27:11

corporate officer in the history of

27:13

our company. Our company is over

27:15

140 years old. And so I

27:17

thought that was something I would

27:19

be proud of. What I didn't

27:22

realize is what came with that.

27:24

And I have been on many

27:26

leadership teams where I was a

27:28

double only, the only person of

27:31

color. And it's really hard to

27:33

explain what that feels like unless

27:35

you're in that situation. And so

27:37

it has a negative impact on

27:39

being able to focus. Sometimes you

27:42

have this talk track in your

27:44

head of, why am I being

27:46

talked over? Is it because I'm

27:48

a woman? Is it because I'm

27:51

female? Is it both after George

27:53

Floyd was murdered? And this is,

27:55

as everybody knows in the midst

27:57

of scary COVID. Super scary COVID.

27:59

We were having executive leadership team.

28:02

meetings every single day. And I

28:04

was talking with one of my

28:06

peers on a video call, and

28:08

he said, how are you? This

28:10

is five days after George Floyd

28:13

is murdered. And I said, I'm

28:15

not doing very well. And he

28:17

said, really? Why? And at that

28:19

moment, America was literally on fire.

28:22

And I thought, how in the

28:24

world can he not understand how

28:26

this is impacting me as a

28:28

black American? And so that

28:31

evening, and we were having these

28:33

meetings every day, and what had

28:35

happened to George Floyd was never

28:37

mentioned. Never mentioned. And meanwhile, our

28:40

employees are posting on social media,

28:42

mostly our black American employees, that

28:44

they're not OK. And so all

28:46

this is going on in the

28:48

backdrop of COVID. And I wrote

28:51

this email, just a few sentences

28:53

to my peers. At that time,

28:55

all of who were white men.

28:57

I said, a lot of our

29:00

employees. I don't remember every single

29:02

word, but I said a lot

29:04

of our employees are not okay

29:06

right now because of what happened

29:09

to George Floyd's murder. I am

29:11

not okay either. I have often

29:13

thought about sharing with you what

29:15

it is like to be the

29:18

only female and the only person

29:20

of color on this leadership team,

29:22

and I thought about doing it

29:24

during our last off-site, but I

29:27

didn't have the courage to do

29:29

so. But one day I will.

29:31

And in the interim, I want

29:33

you to watch this 50-minute video

29:35

from the Elscondo Refinery, because the

29:38

leaders in that facility, the refinery

29:40

manager and operations manager, had a

29:42

discussion with the leaders of the

29:44

black employee network, and they taped

29:47

it. It was very powerful, and

29:49

the employees talked about what it

29:51

felt like to be a black

29:53

American Chevron employee. And so I

29:56

hit send on this at like

29:58

11 o'clock at night. I don't

30:00

write things like that, but I

30:02

was in a space. were I

30:05

wasn't being, and I also said

30:07

I often wonder what do you

30:09

see when you see me. I

30:11

just want to highlight for a

30:14

moment the brilliance in that approach,

30:16

so clear what you're conveying, but

30:18

you also created a safety bubble

30:20

around it. There's a thing that's

30:22

really important that I didn't address

30:25

and you say the important thing,

30:27

but then you didn't address it.

30:29

And that brilliant tactic. allows people

30:31

to understand there's something happening and

30:34

it also gives them permission to

30:36

check in or to ignore. Correct.

30:38

And then you get to observe

30:40

and you get to watch and

30:43

you get to see what they

30:45

do with this piece of information.

30:47

And that as a tactic to

30:49

be honest with oneself to share

30:52

in a vulnerable courageous way to

30:54

others and then to still maintain

30:56

power within yourself. The brilliance of

30:58

that tactic, you've probably played that

31:00

out not maybe fully known how

31:03

powerful that tactic is, but I

31:05

just want to highlight that as

31:07

a, what I would consider a

31:09

modern leadership approach. Honesty, courage, vulnerability,

31:12

truth-telling, and not doing in a

31:14

way that is offensive, but holding

31:16

power. I love every bit of

31:18

it. Well, thank you. I've only...

31:21

talked about that very rarely and

31:23

no one's ever said it was

31:25

brilliant so I appreciate that. Really?

31:27

Like do you use this on

31:30

a regular basis? I'd very rarely

31:32

talk about this. No, no, not

31:34

this subject. This approach. Yeah, the

31:36

approach. Probably. But not... You're the

31:39

trained psychologist here, not me. So

31:41

I don't know what I'm doing.

31:43

Like you said I was neurotic

31:45

earlier. So my... Yes, okay. This

31:47

is why we like each other.

31:50

No, let me explain neuroticism and

31:52

then we go back to something

31:54

I accidentally stepped on. Neuroticism. neuroticism

31:56

meaning there's this energy inside that

31:59

needs to come out and sometimes

32:01

it feels wild yes and unsettling

32:03

but there's something inside that is

32:05

untamed and it's wild and I

32:08

see you as a wild one

32:10

often confined in a tame environment

32:12

and so that tension that that's

32:14

how I come have come to

32:17

know you and that you've been

32:19

able to know you and that

32:21

you've been able to exercise both

32:23

parts is remarkable. But the thing

32:26

that I stepped on accidentally is

32:28

that you don't often talk about

32:30

race and gender. I think that

32:32

that's what you're saying. Yes. No,

32:34

I will talk about race and

32:37

gender. I don't talk about that

32:39

experience. I don't talk about that

32:41

because it was incredibly raw. And

32:43

it took me a good five

32:46

weeks to figure out how do

32:48

I... have the courage to have

32:50

this conversation with them, and how

32:52

do I structure this conversation in

32:55

such a manner that people don't,

32:57

they didn't get their backs up

32:59

or feel like it was a

33:01

personal attack, and I use sports.

33:04

Yeah, there you go. So I

33:06

wanna double click on one part

33:08

of this, and then I have

33:10

two really important questions open to

33:13

you, too. To double click on

33:15

this, when you are younger, you

33:17

size people up. It's that I

33:19

want to be better than them.

33:21

Yes. And then you have this

33:24

framing as you've become older, which

33:26

is, I want to help other

33:28

people be great. So there's an

33:30

interesting parallel between those two for

33:33

me. And you said, to be

33:35

the very best, I need to

33:37

be skilled at something. So I

33:39

need to spend time to get

33:42

better at it. So you dropped

33:44

something that you loved, athletics, to

33:46

invest in the intellectual part of

33:48

life. OK? And then we're talking

33:51

about. the way that you show

33:53

up and the guidance you are

33:55

giving to another person, what do

33:57

you want them to focus on?

34:00

And my wife's aunt was born

34:03

in Cuba, was one of the

34:05

first generation here, an immigrant to

34:07

this country. She's five foot three

34:09

Latina, and she's always said to

34:12

our family, I've known her since

34:14

I was 15, she's always said,

34:16

as a five foot three Latina

34:18

woman, I have to be, I

34:21

think she uses something like 25%

34:23

better than everybody else because of

34:25

the way I look. my stature,

34:28

gender race, the whole, like I

34:30

have to be better. Is that,

34:32

is that a true experience for

34:34

you as well? Without a doubt.

34:37

I have to be. I cannot,

34:39

I don't have the grace to

34:41

make mistakes. How do you manage

34:43

that? It makes me crazy, but

34:46

I have a quote from Winston

34:48

Churchill on my refrigerator that says,

34:50

never ever ever give up. And

34:52

I look at that every day.

34:55

That's a source of power for

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Finding Mastery. If you want to

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get high performance insights delivered right

36:34

to your inbox, sign up for

36:36

the Friday Focus. It's our newsletter

36:39

here at Finding Mastery, where Dr.

36:41

Mike and the Finding Mastery Mindset

36:43

Coaches, that's me, share top insights

36:45

around unlocking your potential and becoming

36:48

your best self. To sign up,

36:50

just go to finding mastery.com/newsletter. Again,

36:52

to get the Friday focus newsletter,

36:55

go to finding mastery.com/newsletter and enter

36:57

your email. We're so stoked to

36:59

be in this with you, so

37:01

keep going on this journey with

37:04

us. And when you're going to

37:06

do something that has pressure and

37:08

stress around it, you've got to

37:10

make a decision or a call

37:13

or raise your hand or say

37:15

something, and it could be, you're

37:17

in that messy edge where mistakes

37:19

could happen. Yes. How do you

37:22

prepare yourself? to ready yourself. Those

37:24

are two distinctly different words. Prepare

37:26

yourself to ready yourself to be

37:28

great in those moments where the

37:31

margins of error are, there is

37:33

not a luxury for a margin

37:35

of error for you that there

37:38

might be for others. Sometimes I

37:40

think about what's the worst thing

37:42

that could happen if I don't

37:44

do this, number one, and if

37:47

I don't do this, this way.

37:49

I have to give a lot

37:51

of like advice or count. a

37:53

lot of people that I work

37:56

with. And sometimes I feel like

37:58

my job is to make sure

38:00

that person makes the most well-informed

38:02

decision he or she can make.

38:05

And that's what my job is.

38:07

And that means many times telling

38:09

people things they don't want to

38:11

hear. If you do this, these

38:14

are the possible outcomes. This is

38:16

a way to do it where

38:18

you'll have the optimal outcome if

38:20

you head down this path. These

38:23

are the things that are going

38:25

to go where the train will

38:27

wreck. And I have to do

38:30

that frequently. And I have to

38:32

be comfortable telling people things that

38:34

they don't necessarily want to hear

38:36

and that they don't necessarily like

38:39

and that aren't popular. Dragon Slayer.

38:41

You're a practice at being a

38:43

dragon Slayer. Yeah. Okay. All right.

38:45

So what is the role of

38:48

psychology for modern leadership? I think

38:50

it's evolving. I think leaders now

38:52

have to have a deeper understanding

38:54

of people than they've ever had

38:57

before. I think they have to

38:59

have conversations that they've, at least,

39:01

and I'll use Chevron as an

39:03

example and how I kind of

39:06

grew up in the company. Nobody

39:08

talked about feelings at work, ever.

39:10

Male female, you did not talk

39:12

about your feelings. You didn't, if

39:15

you asked, it was kind of

39:17

like in society where people would

39:19

say, How are you? And the

39:22

phrase, how are you, is really

39:24

a euphemism for high. And if

39:26

you really stop someone and you

39:28

said, you know, I'm really struggling

39:31

today, I didn't sleep last night,

39:33

they're like, why are you telling

39:35

me this? I think we've evolved.

39:37

And I think that's probably one

39:40

of the benefits of COVID. People

39:42

actually are a bit more comfortable

39:44

saying how they really are. One

39:46

of your peers, Matt Breifelder, from

39:49

Apollo Global. I want to share

39:51

this quote with you and then

39:53

get your response. The

39:56

strange gift in Syrian the strange

39:59

of COVID is that we got

40:01

to humanize our workforce. Yes. How

40:03

do you respond to that? He's

40:05

right. We had evidence of that

40:07

within our own company. And I'll

40:09

give you a couple of examples.

40:11

We had, and I'm really proud

40:13

of this, there's actually Harvard Business

40:16

Review article about it. In 2020,

40:18

when we realized that all these

40:20

kids who went, made that sharp

40:22

left turn and were remote learning,

40:24

weren't gonna have anything to do

40:26

in the summer time. And their

40:28

parents were already going a little

40:30

crazy with the remote learning and

40:33

the remote working. And we have

40:35

an internal social media platform called

40:37

Workplace, and we have all these

40:39

different groups, Chevron Dogs, Chevron Cats,

40:41

Chevron Parents. So I start looking

40:43

in the parents thread, and there's

40:45

all of this chatter about camps

40:47

being canceled. So I put in

40:50

a, and I used this to

40:52

community, I used this platform and

40:54

community, all kinds of crazy things

40:56

with our workforce. I put in

40:58

a question, and I said. I've

41:00

noticed this threat of canceled camps.

41:02

Would you guys be interested if

41:04

we created our own virtual summer

41:07

camp? And it exploded. And in

41:09

five weeks, we created Camp Chevron.

41:11

It was amazing. It was so

41:13

fun. That is awesome. And we

41:15

used Marshall, the resources of this

41:17

army of retirees, of partners of

41:19

ours. And we had exercise class,

41:21

art class. We had a geology

41:24

class and it was tiered for

41:26

different age groups, financial, finance for

41:28

high school students. My favorite part

41:30

of all, and this gets to

41:32

the humanizing piece, was we had

41:34

executive story time. So the CEO

41:36

and every single one of his

41:39

direct reports was taped reading their

41:41

favorite children's book. Oh. And when

41:43

I proposed this in a meeting,

41:45

they looked at me like I

41:47

had horns coming out of my

41:49

head and said we were never

41:51

doing that. And I said yes

41:53

you are. And it shifted from

41:56

I am never doing this to

41:58

a competition of who did it.

42:00

best and who had the most

42:02

views. So our CEO read Green

42:04

Eggs and Ham, our General

42:07

Counsel Red Ferdinand, and

42:09

he had curated his space

42:11

were little bulls to match the

42:14

story. I read where the wild

42:16

things are, and that allowed... I

42:18

told you you're a while there. I

42:20

knew I just knew it there, yes.

42:23

And so think about the power

42:25

of that. I love that idea. That

42:27

whole concept, there's a yin

42:29

yang in there that's awesome,

42:31

be serious adults speaking and

42:34

creating and competing. Right,

42:36

and turning the page. Okay,

42:38

Kathleen Hogan. Kathleen Hogan. One

42:40

of your peers as well,

42:43

the CHRO, and good friend.

42:45

And good friend at Microsoft.

42:47

Her quote, we are facing a

42:49

human energy crisis. Yes. She called

42:51

me before she shared that because

42:53

Shepard is known as the human

42:55

energy company It's like you guys

42:57

have a problem with this and

42:59

I said no I think Kathleen is right

43:02

because there's still epic fatigue

43:04

Pretty much everywhere people are

43:06

There's fatigue that's left over

43:08

from the pandemic. There's fatigue.

43:10

I think that's created by

43:12

all these external things that

43:15

are happening in the world that

43:17

are out of our control. I

43:19

don't think anyone ever imagined there

43:21

would be two ground wars happening

43:23

at the same time in our

43:25

lifetime. It sounds pretty incredible.

43:28

There's a lot of polarization

43:30

about a whole host of issues

43:32

and then lots of companies and

43:34

I'm sure you've heard this are

43:37

asking people to do more with less.

43:39

And so this creates this kind

43:41

of monumental fatigue. So

43:43

the question is... How do you create relief

43:46

valves and well this is I think what

43:48

you're going to ask me. How do you

43:50

deal with that? I don't think anyone has

43:52

cracked the code on it. I don't. However,

43:55

I think there are little things that can

43:57

turn into big things that will make

43:59

a difference. difference. And one, and

44:01

I'm not a big fan of creating

44:04

new initiatives or edicts for

44:06

people to do things, but over

44:08

time I've realized that we are

44:10

very bad at taking vacation

44:12

and taking the holidays. And I

44:15

spent seven years working in

44:17

London and a lot of

44:19

time all over Europe and

44:21

Europeans treat how they call

44:23

them holidays, very differently than

44:25

Americans do. Sometimes our vacations

44:27

are days when you work

44:29

just a little bit less. And

44:31

I... Or you wake up earlier to get

44:33

to the emails, a step later. No,

44:36

right, to get to you. Correct. That

44:38

doesn't help you rest and recharge

44:40

and turn off. And I often

44:42

think about how did we get here

44:44

and how do we get out of this?

44:46

And so there are two things I'm

44:48

kind of working on. I'm sure you

44:50

can tell. I'm a... Huge believer in

44:53

the power of stories. So I made a

44:55

decision during the pandemic to

44:57

stop emailing my direct reports

44:59

on the weekends, unless it was

45:01

a crisis. And I didn't tell them.

45:03

And one of them noticed about

45:05

four months later and said, you

45:07

stopped emailing us on the weekends. I said,

45:10

yep, I have, because I'm contributing to

45:12

the problem. If I'm emailing you

45:14

on the weekend, it doesn't matter

45:16

if this is time sensitive, time

45:19

sensitive or not, you're going to

45:21

wait. So I just stopped. And that's

45:23

hard. That's hard. It's hard for

45:25

me. It's hard for me. It takes

45:28

a lot of discipline. And I work

45:30

on the weekends still. You know, I

45:32

will respond to the CEO if he

45:34

sends me something or the vice chairman.

45:36

But I made a conscious decision. I'm

45:39

not going to do that to my direct

45:41

repress because I want them to

45:43

have some time off and to have a

45:45

break. And if they write to me, I don't

45:47

respond unless it's crisis. And

45:50

that's also hard. because I

45:52

know they're waiting for a response

45:54

or I'll respond in time it so

45:56

it arrives on Monday. The second thing

45:58

I would share... I spent a lot

46:01

of time earlier in my career

46:03

in our manufacturing facilities and I

46:05

was in this meeting that blew

46:07

my mind last year and it

46:09

was a manufacturing leadership team meeting

46:11

and so these are the heads

46:13

of these facilities from all over

46:16

all over the U.S. and they

46:18

and one of them not else

46:20

had gone to but one of

46:22

our other facilities we had a

46:24

strike earlier in the year and

46:26

They I sat through a discussion

46:28

about what was that like and

46:31

I you know would get the

46:33

strike updates and it went on

46:35

for longer than anybody imagined But

46:37

what I had never heard was

46:39

the impact this had on the

46:41

people who actually and we had

46:43

to have a strike in any

46:46

facility in a really long time

46:48

and There were men and women

46:50

talking about sleeping in the facility

46:52

They were talking about when they

46:54

would go home. They would cry

46:56

because it was so difficult, the

46:58

fractured relationships amongst. Some of them

47:01

talked about what they did when

47:03

the strike ended to go on

47:05

vacation and how hard it was.

47:07

Most of us have a work

47:09

phone in a personal phone to

47:11

turn off the work phone. And

47:13

I remember I was very struck

47:15

by one leader who said, I

47:18

put my work phone in a

47:20

safe and I locked it up

47:22

and then I left my house

47:24

and went on vacation and I

47:26

was like, oh my God, I

47:28

don't know what's going on. And

47:30

she talked about how she had

47:33

to kind of unlearned this. She

47:35

said, Why do I think I'm

47:37

so important that this place can't

47:39

run without me? This wasn't even

47:41

the refinery manager is one of

47:43

the refinery managers to rec report

47:45

and it's such and she said

47:48

it took me two or three

47:50

days to just realize You know

47:52

Everything is okay. I don't need

47:54

to do this and so I

47:56

repeat this a lot because I

47:58

think there's so much power in

48:00

the vulnerability of sharing it and

48:02

actually letting people look, guess what?

48:05

You know, we're not as important

48:07

as we think we are and

48:09

the ship's going to keep sailing

48:11

with or without us. I want

48:13

to take a second here to

48:15

tell you all about a resource

48:17

that I think could add some

48:20

major value to your daily research.

48:22

last year I recorded a free

48:24

audio guide for the finding mastery

48:26

community so you could start your

48:28

day with a simple yet powerful

48:30

morning mindset routine to set yourself

48:32

up for success this is the

48:35

same morning mindset routine that is

48:37

the same morning mindset routine that

48:39

I use every day and along

48:41

with some of the world's most

48:43

elite performers across sport business and

48:45

the arts they found it incredibly

48:47

powerful by starting your day with

48:50

these simple steps you can reduce

48:52

some stress now you can optimize

48:54

performance you can enhance your sense

48:56

of mental agility And you can

48:58

take the next step to unlocking

49:00

your potential. So if you want

49:02

to start your day the same

49:04

way, just head over to finding

49:07

mastery.com/morning mindset to download this quick

49:09

audio guide. It's all for free.

49:11

It's for you. We designed it

49:13

for you. Again, that's finding mastery.com/morning

49:15

mindset to download your audio guide.

49:17

Two parts to it. My mentor,

49:19

who's known me since I was

49:22

15, he says to me one

49:24

day, I remember like five years

49:26

into our relationship, and he says,

49:28

Mike, you know, you really matter.

49:30

To the people in your lives,

49:32

like you show up, like you

49:34

really matter to them. And I

49:37

also want to remind you, in

49:39

the big scheme of things, you're

49:41

really insignificant. So that's like a

49:43

seed that was watered 20 years

49:45

ago that I really appreciate. And

49:47

just yesterday, a friend of mine,

49:49

a friend of mine, a friend

49:51

of mine, a friend of mine,

49:54

He's like a colleague slash friend.

49:56

So we've done a bunch of

49:58

business together, but there's no real

50:00

business right now. It was a

50:02

catch up. We wanted to have

50:04

a breakfast catch up. It was

50:06

four weeks until I could have

50:09

a breakfast with him because I

50:11

have a international meetings that we

50:13

hold early in the morning. And

50:15

so there's a time thing. And

50:17

so he writes back and he

50:19

says, either things are really good

50:21

or really bad. Laugh. And he

50:24

says, you really need to learn

50:26

how to delegate. Thank you, point

50:28

taken. Point taken. Okay. All right.

50:30

So. Last, we've got just a

50:32

handful of moments together. Okay. I

50:34

would love to give you just

50:36

a couple quick hits to answer.

50:38

So it's just reflexive to see

50:41

where you take these. Okay. My

50:43

vision is to live life with

50:45

no regrets. My purpose? Is to

50:47

be disruptive. Success is? Being happy.

50:49

If there was one master of

50:51

craft, born. well before us are

50:53

currently living now, and you could

50:56

sit with that master of craft

50:58

over dinner. Who would that person

51:00

be, and what would the meal

51:02

be? Christine Lagarde. I don't know

51:04

Christine Lagarde. She's the head of

51:06

the International Monetary Fund. Of course,

51:08

yes. Okay. I've admired her for

51:11

years. She's a woman who's been

51:13

in a... male-dominated environment, her entire

51:15

career. She has held her own

51:17

in incredible environments. She has listened

51:19

to and she is wickedly disciplined.

51:21

Thank you. And where are you

51:23

going to, what type of meal?

51:26

What type of meal. So she

51:28

also doesn't drink alcohol. So it

51:30

have to be, I don't, I

51:32

don't, I studied her for a

51:34

long time. I'm not a big

51:36

foodie. I'd be happy with a

51:38

salad. Okay. Collegrino. Boring. Boring. I

51:40

know I'm boring. I'm a vegetarian.

51:43

Of course I'm boring. A modern

51:45

leader is. Curious. I love that.

51:47

I think that is incredible. If

51:49

you could name a boat. What

51:51

kind of boat? So that's a

51:53

cool question. I'm thinking of an

51:55

ocean, an ocean-based boat. I would

51:58

probably name a boat after my

52:00

daughter, Erica. It all comes down

52:02

too. Love. Rhonda, thank you for

52:04

the way that you show up.

52:06

Thank you for our friendship. Thank

52:08

you for holding space of both

52:10

support and challenge. Thank you for

52:13

being a true teller, a fire

52:15

breather, for leading from the front

52:17

to embody what modern leadership is.

52:19

And I just want to thank

52:21

you for all that you've provided

52:23

me personally and professionally. And I

52:25

just thank you for this time.

52:27

Becka, you. Thank you for having

52:30

you. shared my understanding of you.

52:32

I would appreciate that very much

52:34

because you left me hanging in

52:36

El Sigmundo when we had the

52:38

purpose conversation, so have added. Open

52:40

to ideas, open to experiences, so

52:42

you are a risk taker in

52:45

that way, highly conscientious. You care.

52:47

You think about the global rhythm

52:49

of the world experience and you

52:51

care about people, and you care

52:53

about the quote-unquote right. You do

52:55

not agree. You're low on agreeableness.

52:57

You think and discern and metabolize

53:00

information, and then you're going to

53:02

speak the truth, which makes you

53:04

a very interesting person. I'm open.

53:06

I'm exploratory. I'm conscientious. I care.

53:08

And I'm not going to agree.

53:10

I'm not going to necessarily just

53:12

agree because of power or principle.

53:15

You're going to speak your truth.

53:17

You have enough neuroticism inside of

53:19

you to work hard to be

53:21

anxious just enough. to be able

53:23

to get to the edge to

53:25

explore. You have the ability to

53:27

think globally and to get down

53:29

into the narrowness of an idea.

53:32

Your attention is incredible. You can

53:34

hold details and stay locked in,

53:36

and then you can pull up

53:38

and get the big picture and

53:40

lock back down into details, which

53:42

is a rare skill for elite

53:44

athletes. Your appreciation for risk is

53:47

high, but it's calculated. The way

53:49

that you coach people is positive

53:51

and supportive, but I'm not sure

53:53

you coach yourself that way. The

53:55

most likely mistake that you would

53:57

make if you were an athlete

53:59

would be overanalyzing and maybe being

54:02

critical of self which is a

54:04

tightening up and but you're aware

54:06

of that so you go to

54:08

work to laugh to have fun

54:10

to have space to create and

54:12

so your awareness is so high

54:14

that you've naturally created buoyancy and

54:16

space in life, evidenced by your

54:19

shoes, so that you don't take

54:21

yourself so seriously. Your first wound,

54:23

if you will, is not being

54:25

seen, and your remedy for that

54:27

is kindness, to make dinners or

54:29

lunches for your father to be

54:31

able to spend time with him,

54:34

so the deepest commodity that you

54:36

value is time. It's not money.

54:38

It's connection. To me, that feels

54:40

like a modern leader, and somebody

54:42

that is going to show us

54:44

the way. And so, how did

54:46

I do? You did pretty well.

54:49

What did I miss? The depth

54:51

of self, negative self-talk. Keep going?

54:53

This is the agreeableness that I

54:55

love. What's you mean? You said,

54:57

if I was an elite athlete,

54:59

I would overanalyze. I do that

55:01

a lot. Like I always think

55:03

of how could I have done

55:06

that better? Yeah. And people tell

55:08

me I did a good job

55:10

at something and I don't believe

55:12

them. That's right. Yeah, so that's

55:14

bigger. I minimized those two. You're

55:16

saying you got them, but they're

55:18

actually pretty big. That's your work.

55:21

I always think about how can

55:23

I do something better? Yeah. The

55:25

never-ending journey. You spot it. You

55:27

got it? Me too. Brown to

55:29

thank you so much. Yes. Thank

55:31

you. Okay, this modern leadership series.

55:33

Like, it's proved to be something

55:36

special. Emma who's on the back

55:38

of this. It's Judd Apato. You

55:40

are right. So next Monday we're

55:42

going to be back with the

55:44

third installment of modern leadership, but

55:46

this Wednesday we do indeed have

55:48

the Hollywood legend himself. Judd Apatow.

55:51

I mean how good is he?

55:53

Like what was it like for

55:55

you when you're listening? I mean

55:57

I was so excited even when

55:59

he just arrived in the studio.

56:01

It was like a great conversation

56:03

that you guys had and it

56:05

just honestly it had it all

56:08

it was brilliant. He really does

56:10

have something special. And to be

56:12

the creative force behind the 40-year-old

56:14

virgin, knocked up, Anchor Man, Superbad,

56:16

just to name a few movies,

56:18

and then, you know, we got

56:20

to sit down for a really

56:23

intimate conversation about what drives his

56:25

storytelling, his gift for spotting and

56:27

nurturing talent, and also how emotional

56:29

depth, not ego, has shaped his

56:31

leadership approach. This one, this is

56:33

one to make sure you tune

56:35

you tune in for. Thank you

56:38

so much for diving into another

56:40

episode of Finding Master with us.

56:42

Our team loves creating this podcast

56:44

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56:46

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56:48

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58:21

health a sincere thank you

58:23

for listening. thank Until next episode,

58:26

be well, think well, well. keep

58:28

exploring.